Blood MAge attribute allocation

[Clover]

I'm having a bit of trouble balancing my stats out. I am a human so everything is added by me. I've been putting most into vitality and intelligence with a little into wisdom and constitution. Does anyone have any tips for me?

[CrimsonEdge]

It depends on how you want to play. If you want to be able to heal for ages and be insanely mana efficient, then don't put any into INT.

If you want to lifetap for years, put points into INT.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do, but so far I'm pointing the most points into Wisdom followed up by Vit and then a split between con and INT.

I hope they "fix" con. Right now, Con is so useless.

[Clover]

It depends on how you want to play. If you want to be able to heal for ages and be insanely mana efficient, then don't put any into INT.

If you want to lifetap for years, put points into INT.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do, but so far I'm pointing the most points into Wisdom followed up by Vit and then a split between con and INT.

I hope they "fix" con. Right now, Con is so useless.

Great thanks. And I noticed how wierd con acts. Takes a ton of points to increase what its suppose to it seems. Very disappointing :(

[Jeters]

I went the Int / Spell damage route, with Wis and vit close behind. fun fun =)

[Malivan]

As a high elf, I can keep 2 stats maxed. I keep int and vit maxed and put whatever is left in wis. For HP and con, I rely on gear. Most of my gear is focused on spell damage though. If you want to solo ever, you better not neglect int.

[CrimsonEdge]

I went the Int / Spell damage route, with Wis and vit close behind. fun fun =)

Jeters, would you by chance happen to know if con is working as intended? If so, then con isn't even worth putting points into for tanks.

[Desdemona]

On my high elf Im maxing int and vis and putting 2 points in wisdom.

That gives me 5 vit, 6 int and 6 wis every level

It seems that wis gives 0.1% spell crit and 3 energy per points. But Im not sure how often spell crit drops in regard to level.

Does anyone know how much damage 1 point of int gives? Vitality is nice because its HP regen as well as energy regen, and movement speed is always good

[Saidera]

I've gone WIS (mana pool) -> VIT (regeneration) -> CON (hp for taps/resistances) on my high elf as I intend to go the raiding/mana intensive healing route.

The amount of HP and resistances CON gives does scale as you level; it may seem pretty miniscule right now but the higher you get the more benefit you should see from it.

[Tharzidun]

I'm having a bit of trouble balancing my stats out. I am a human so everything is added by me. I've been putting most into vitality and intelligence with a little into wisdom and constitution. Does anyone have any tips for me?

Lots of stuff has been done to analyze attribute allocation. The bottom line: A couple fo points difference per level isn't all that much to worry about. As a BMG as long as Int, Wis, Vit, and to a lesser extent Con get some love you'll be fine.

My personal allocation as a human:

4 Int
4 Wis
4 VIt
2 Con at every level

I am gambling that Con will see a boost in the not too distant future. I guessing that it will get a *slight* HP boost and a *significant* resist boost.

[kraznor]

I personally don't see Vit as being big for us with the ability to MT. My personal choice is:

Int
Wis
Con

Vitality is an afterthought for me as it doesn't do you any good whatsoever if you're chain casting.

[hawnz]

i max vit and int, and dump the rest into wis. con is useless at this point. as far as resists go, i almost always stand away from the group when we fight so i never get hit by AEs. i don't know if this option will change when we get higher level, but dumping points into con just for some resists that i currently don't need anyhow just doesn't seem worth it.

if things change at the raiding level, then i'll just respec. but for now, i think vit/int/wis > con by far.

[kraznor]

i max vit and int, and dump the rest into wis. con is useless at this point. as far as resists go, i almost always stand away from the group when we fight so i never get hit by AEs. i don't know if this option will change when we get higher level, but dumping points into con just for some resists that i currently don't need anyhow just doesn't seem worth it.

if things change at the raiding level, then i'll just respec. but for now, i think vit/int/wis > con by far.

Um, con also gives you more health, which you need to turn into MORE mana with MT.

Con is hardly useless. If you have 0 health, you can't nuke! :cool:

[Kovacs]

I'm in the Con. is a waste of points camp. A. Sure more hit points is good but you're a healer and should be able to find some hit points somewhere in your spell book. And 2. With a finite amount of allocatable points why not pick int. over con. (lifetap vs. raw hp's) and reap the further advantages of increased spell damage?

As for resists sure they're important and WAY more so in high level PvP but does anybody have any idea how they scale? I mean it seems that most resists are keyed on level and the class resist buffs not con. The psi. for example gets hundreds of points in group mental resists, a cleric 100+ divine resist etc. How much more effective are your resists going to be with 99 con.? Sure you might be 9% more resistant to even con. mobs but I wouldn't count on it.

Great if you have the points to spend but not less so when you consider foregoing either wis. or int.

Also, does anybody remeber if Wis.'s increased crit. chances are explicit in the tootips (a la dex.: "You have a 5.6% chance to critical hit in melee combat")? If so that would be worth knowing.

Ok so I told you that story so I could tell you this one...

Here's the real question I would love to tknow the answer too, and unfortunatley know already it's not going to get answered here. How much additional healing potency does vitality add to your spells per level per point and how much adddtitional spell damage will int. add?

In essence, what's the programmed "target" number for these abilities. The point at which the dam./heal scaling becomes non-linear. Actually, I suspect that it'll prob. still be linear but the point at which any additional point will increase potency at an increased rate.

I was in the psi's mind channel and heard that the effective (or "target) level for vitality is 5X the characters level and suspect that that number is accurate (for all abilities), but nobody had measured the bonuses up to and/or past that number? I mean even if someone could do it for vitality where the number is explicit on the tooltip just to verify if the 5X level number is accurate. Now before we go crazy here I'm not saying that I'd believe the tooltip even if it did support that number but even so energy regen is a pretty easy number to track and correlating "RL" and expected results wouldn't be all that difficult. heheh... and by all that difficult I mean for someone who doesn't actully have to level a char. high enough to have enough refund points to experiment with.... hmmm.... Maybe someone with a test character?

Well ok, knowing that that's not going to actually happen and knowing also that nobody actually knows what the hell each additional attribute does to their character beyond the anectodal; I grouped with a .. once, or I was duo'ing with..., or I usually... etc. etc.-- and when I put more points into intelligence I seemed to do more damage so you should put points into int. too."

I just can't see why anybody would think to "advise" another player on where to allocate their attribute points when all you're doing is just regurgitating the tooltips in the character sheet, and obviously if you need help reading those then....

[hawnz]

Um, con also gives you more health, which you need to turn into MORE mana with MT.

Con is hardly useless. If you have 0 health, you can't nuke! :cool:

con gives very little extra health per con point. a health pool of 50-100 more HP is not as good as being able to continuously tap more health via having more int. total health pool is kind of pointless unless you're tanking and getting CHealed. for example, it doesn't matter whether my tanks have 2500 hp or 3000 hp right now, cuz i can only heal for around 1300. i start my big heals at 50% tank life, cuz i know they're going to get the full benefit of my spell. that extra 500 hp they have serves no purpose until i have a CHeal type spell or a very large heal spell. i'd rather they crank up their AC/DEX than worry about HP.

HP was one of the be all/end all stats in EQ because of CHeal and the massive dammage a raid mob could do to you in one round. having 5300 hp was significantly better than having 5000 when a mob had a quad 1300 (5200) round max.

[CrimsonEdge]

con gives very little extra health per con point. a health pool of 50-100 more HP is not as good as being able to continuously tap more health via having more int.

INT doesn't give you more mana. Wisdom does.

The only thing INT does for us is increase our spell damage.

[Helichrysum]

I don't think any self respecting Bloodmage should disregard the importance of Wisdom as a primary stat. Wis not only gives you energy, which to me is the most important thing to raise by any means necessary, but also increases your spell crit chance. Int increases your base spell damage...and not a whole lot else. Even if you're going the max damage route, wis should at least be the second most important stat you raise, if not the first. Vitality is also very important - the myriad of bonuses this stat gives are too good to ignore. Con I am going to ignore for now.

For my build, which will be rather balanced between healing and nuking, I'll be going wis -> int -> vit with my stats, with con somewhere in there in later levels when the return is worth it.

[hawnz]

INT doesn't give you more mana. Wisdom does.

The only thing INT does for us is increase our spell damage.

read what i wrote man. i didn't say a single thing about mana. i said "tap more health via INT". bigger dmg taps = bigger returned heals.

[CrimsonEdge]

read what i wrote man. i didn't say a single thing about mana. i said "tap more health via INT". bigger dmg taps = bigger returned heals.

You really didn't clarify it either. It was left open. I figured the word continuesly meant you had more mana.

[hawnz]

anyone with half a brain can read the hover overs on the allocation page and know that wis is the stat that gives energy. regardless, you now know what i meant.

example:

BM 1 has a total HP pool of 2000 and taps for 350

BM 2 has a total HP pool of 2100 and taps for 300


here's how my solo fights usually go (yours may vary).

union of blood, bursting cyst, despoil (175%), despoil(200%), scarlet ritual, bursting cyst, despoil(150%), despoil(175%), scarlet ritual. that kills most of what i solo.

i use despoil: 1x150%, 2x175%, 1x200%

back to our two example BMs.

BM 1 would gain 2450 hp back from his taps
BM 2 would gain 2100 hp back from his taps


BM 1 total HP (base + returned) = 2000 (base) + 2450 (returned) = 4450
BM 2 total HP (base + returned) = 2100 (base) + 2100 (returned) = 4200

so even tho BM 2 had a higher base HP from his con advantage, he actually ends up with less due to his lower INT.


again, this is my playstyle, and yours may vary. but i just don't see any way right now where con is advantageous for a BM.

[kraznor]

con gives very little extra health per con point. a health pool of 50-100 more HP is not as good as being able to continuously tap more health via having more int. total health pool is kind of pointless unless you're tanking and getting CHealed. for example, it doesn't matter whether my tanks have 2500 hp or 3000 hp right now, cuz i can only heal for around 1300. i start my big heals at 50% tank life, cuz i know they're going to get the full benefit of my spell. that extra 500 hp they have serves no purpose until i have a CHeal type spell or a very large heal spell. i'd rather they crank up their AC/DEX than worry about HP.

HP was one of the be all/end all stats in EQ because of CHeal and the massive dammage a raid mob could do to you in one round. having 5300 hp was significantly better than having 5000 when a mob had a quad 1300 (5200) round max.

This is a bs arguement as I CLEARLY stated that INT was the first choice, with WIS second and CON THIRD. And saying total health pool is POINTLESS??? Dude, put down the pipe, seriously. If 100 health saves me from dying and our group wiping, then it can hardly be pointless.

Con adds 3 things that help BMs.

1) Resists - and noone knows how this will scale in the future, but everyone knows in endgame Resists and HP > ALL

2) Health - Health is always good, period. And if this game follows any EQ standards, then you will get a bigger return on CON as you gain levels. This is yet to be proven, but I'm willing to gamble on it.

3) Mental Transfusion - The more Health you have, the bigger gains you get from MT, period. Doesn't matter how much mana you have, it matters how many hit points you have.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again.

You can't heal nor nuke if you're dead.

[hawnz]

This is a bs arguement as I CLEARLY stated that INT was the first choice, with WIS second and CON THIRD. And saying total health pool is POINTLESS??? Dude, put down the pipe, seriously. If 100 health saves me from dying and our group wiping, then it can hardly be pointless.

Con adds 3 things that help BMs.

1) Resists - and noone knows how this will scale in the future, but everyone knows in endgame Resists and HP > ALL

2) Health - Health is always good, period. And if this game follows any EQ standards, then you will get a bigger return on CON as you gain levels. This is yet to be proven, but I'm willing to gamble on it.

3) Mental Transfusion - The more Health you have, the bigger gains you get from MT, period. Doesn't matter how much mana you have, it matters how many hit points you have.

I've said it many times, and I'll say it again.

You can't heal nor nuke if you're dead.


look at the math man. i'm getting less than 1.5 hp per con right now. i get 12 energy per wis. con is just not worth it. as a third stat, i can either dump 2 points per level into wis or con. at level 20, that's either an extra 16 hp if i've dumped those 2 points since level 10 into con, or an extra 132 energy if i dumped the extra 2 points into wis since level 10.

132 energy > 16 hp. i don't care how your playstyle is, 16 hp is not going to serve you better than 132 energy.

[kraznor]

look at the math man. i'm getting less than 1.5 hp per con right now. i get 12 energy per wis. con is just not worth it. as a third stat, i can either dump 2 points per level into wis or con. at level 20, that's either an extra 16 hp if i've dumped those 2 points since level 10 into con, or an extra 132 energy if i dumped the extra 2 points into wis since level 10.

132 energy > 16 hp. i don't care how your playstyle is, 16 hp is not going to serve you better than 132 energy.

1st off, your math is horrible. 2 points a level for 10 levels is 20 points x the current 1.5 hp/point is 30 hit points, not 16. That's not even the point though as I'm sure that number will change over time.

Again tho, you didn't bother to read my post but instead quote it assuming what I've said.

I clearly posted how I add points as this:

Int
Wis
Con
And every once in a while I put into Vit.

And restated that again. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that, I don't know what to say if you can't.

The other point you fail to realize is that most likely (not definitely, but I would bet on it) the Con benefit to your health will IMPROVE as you level. It does in 90% of the games out there, so it's a good assumption. And it does in EQ, which the creator of this game created (and the mechanics of this game are based on those mechanics), so that makes it an even better assumption.

The last point which I haven't even mentioned is the hard caps that are listed. Since most of our gear is + INT and + WIS and + VIT, those will be capped EASILY. CON gear will be highly desirable, and if you had put pts into CON (this of course is an educated guess) then you will cap all 4 FAR easier than if you didn't.

Again, just so you don't mistake it once again, ALL of this is conjecture at this point, your suggestions and mine. The reason it is all conjecture is that it is CERTAIN that the game will still go through changes and none of us know what those changes will be.

Let's assume (big assumption) that at level 50 your CON returns 5 health per point. 2 points put into CON per level for 40 levels = 80 points x 5 = 400 health. I hardly think that is anything to sneeze at. Not to mention it's effect on your resists. And the 30 additional mana each time you do MT (400*0.15)/2.

But hey, if you want to put all your points into VIT and none into CON, that's YOUR call, more power to you. People asked what we did in this thread and I told them what I do. It is their choice to listen or not.

[Saidera]

1st off, your math is horrible. 2 points a level for 10 levels is 20 points x the current 1.5 hp/point is 30 hit points, not 16. That's not even the point though as I'm sure that number will change over time.

Again tho, you didn't bother to read my post but instead quote it assuming what I've said.

I clearly posted how I add points as this:

Int
Wis
Con
And every once in a while I put into Vit.

And restated that again. I'm sorry if you can't grasp that, I don't know what to say if you can't.

The other point you fail to realize is that most likely (not definitely, but I would bet on it) the Con benefit to your health will IMPROVE as you level. It does in 90% of the games out there, so it's a good assumption. And it does in EQ, which the creator of this game created (and the mechanics of this game are based on those mechanics), so that makes it an even better assumption.

The last point which I haven't even mentioned is the hard caps that are listed. Since most of our gear is + INT and + WIS and + VIT, those will be capped EASILY. CON gear will be highly desirable, and if you had put pts into CON (this of course is an educated guess) then you will cap all 4 FAR easier than if you didn't.

Again, just so you don't mistake it once again, ALL of this is conjecture at this point, your suggestions and mine. The reason it is all conjecture is that it is CERTAIN that the game will still go through changes and none of us know what those changes will be.

Let's assume (big assumption) that at level 50 your CON returns 5 health per point. 2 points put into CON per level for 40 levels = 80 points x 5 = 400 health. I hardly think that is anything to sneeze at. Not to mention it's effect on your resists. And the 30 additional mana each time you do MT (400*0.15)/2.

But hey, if you want to put all your points into VIT and none into CON, that's YOUR call, more power to you. People asked what we did in this thread and I told them what I do. It is their choice to listen or not.

Well said :) I chose the CON route because my long term goals are raiding. Just like in any other game, HP and resists are going to be key to your survival - especially for a class that heals others with your life. Since the amount of hit points/resists you get from CON increases dramatically as you level, I strongly believe its benefit is underated.

Then again, it depends on what your goals are for the game...if they consist of doing dungeons with your friends, CON is probably not the way you want to go. If your going to be raiding, subjecting yourself to AOEs and life tapping yourself at the same time, no extra amount of HP is overated.

[hawnz]

1st off, your math is horrible. 2 points a level for 10 levels is 20 points x the current 1.5 hp/point is 30 hit points, not 16. That's not even the point though as I'm sure that number will change over time.

you're right there. i only factored in 1 point. but the ratio remains the same, so it doesn't matter.

31 HPs vs 264 energy. if you're gonna sit there and tell me the con > wis or vit or int, show me how. this thread isn't just about what you or i personally use, it's about what everyone uses and what's best for the class. so while i may have quoted you in one of my posts, i'm sorry to say that everything i write doesn't pertain just to what you do. if you want to dump all your points into str, con and dex, that's your choice. however, for those interested, con is a POOR CHOICE because it has POOR RETURNS compared to other stats. that's my arguement.

the feeble amount of hp and resists it gives are negligible at best. it's what, something like 1 resist per 10 points of con? give me a break, don't insult me by telling me this is going to help you cuz you're going to be a raid oriented BM. even if you dump 4 points into con from level 10 to 50 (41 x 4 = 164), that is going to give you a whopping ~16 resists and 233 hp. or you could dump those 4 into wis and get 1968 extra energy, or dump

level 50 stat results:

4 into con: 16 resist all, 233 hp
4 into wis: 1968 hp, crits
4 into vit: (see math below)* ~25% healing boost, ~50% boost in energy regen, 135% boost to in combat health regen, faster horseless run speed (who cares? lol).
4 into int: (see math below)** ~33% boost in spell dammage. ~33% more HP returned on lifetaps.

our last despoil line is base cap of 474 dmg. 474 x 1.33% = 630 dmg. at a max blood union of 5, a base line of 474 dmg returns 1067 hp. The BM with 164 more int would get 1416 hp back.



*vit math (keep in mind, this does not factor in scaling or special issues, and is only speculation until we actually have level 50s that can test this stuff): my healing spells had a 6% jump with an increase of 40 vit. 0.06/40 = .0015 = .15% healing bonus per vit. 164 vit x .0015 = .246 = nearly 25% boost.

40 vit gave me a 12% boost in energy regen per sec. 0.12/40 = .003 = .3% regen increase per vit. 164 x .003 = .492 = 49.2% boost in energy regen.

40 vit gave me a 33% boost in in combat HP regen. .33/40 = .00825 = 0.825% boost per vit. 164 x 0.00825 = 1.353 = 135% in combat HP regen.



**int math: this was a bit harder, since we dont have an INT buff spell, so i had to manipulate it via equipment. 10 int gave me a 2% boost in spell dammage. that's .2% per int. 164 x 0.002 = .328 = ~33% boost in spell dammage.




The other point you fail to realize is that most likely (not definitely, but I would bet on it) the Con benefit to your health will IMPROVE as you level. It does in 90% of the games out there, so it's a good assumption. And it does in EQ, which the creator of this game created (and the mechanics of this game are based on those mechanics), so that makes it an even better assumption.

it doesn't. or at least it didn't in beta, and it doesn't for my higher level friends thus far. will this change? i don't know. but i don't make my permanent game play decisions based on what may someday change to be. if we're going to assume that con returns scale as you level, then it would also reasonably stand to mean that the other stats scale as well right? thus putting us exactly back to the point we're at now?



look, i have nothing against you, so let's not turn this into a personal issue. i already put my points where i see fit, as do you. i'm simply trying to argue my case that con is a poor stat as far as returns go AS OF NOW. that could certainly change, or it could certainly stay the same. by all means, double check my math and see if i'm missing something. i make mistakes all the time. i just want to get the info out there on what you're actually getting for your allocations based on fact and not on what other games have done or what we're used to, as this game uses stats in very different ways than EQ and the like.

[Gord]

Ok, hold on a minute here...

First you say:

however, for those interested, con is a POOR CHOICE because it has POOR RETURNS compared to other stats.

The discussion may go better for you if you stop stating opinion as fact.

Then this:

Quote:
The other point you fail to realize is that most likely (not definitely, but I would bet on it) the Con benefit to your health will IMPROVE as you level. It does in 90% of the games out there, so it's a good assumption. And it does in EQ, which the creator of this game created (and the mechanics of this game are based on those mechanics), so that makes it an even better assumption.


it doesn't. or at least it didn't in beta, and it doesn't for my higher level friends thus far.

When clearly stated in a previous post in this thread:

The amount of HP and resistances CON gives does scale as you level; it may seem pretty miniscule right now but the higher you get the more benefit you should see from it.
__________________
Saidera
Level 35 Bloodmage of Gulgrethor
Officer of Pain

So, either 35 isn't "high level", Saidera is wrong, or your friends are wrong.

And...

this thread isn't just about what you or i personally use

When the OP clearly says:

Does anyone have any tips for me?


In closing, i'll leave you with this...

learn2debate plskthx

[hawnz]

Ok, hold on a minute here...

First you say:



The discussion may go better for you if you stop stating opinion as fact.

Then this:



When clearly stated in a previous post in this thread:



So, either 35 isn't "high level", Saidera is wrong, or your friends are wrong.

And...



When the OP clearly says:




In closing, i'll leave you with this...

learn2debate plskthx



all conjecture. ffs, stop trying to argue with me or attack me personally and post information that actually supports your case or don't bother posting. i'm not gonna respond to anything else that doesn't do anything besides try to pick and peck apart posts for the sake of doing so. let's see the math. this isn't a really debate of opinions, it's a collaboration of FACTUAL information. get in game and collect data and post it. this has nothing to do with me or my character, get that in your head.

[Merro]

Just using your 80con = 400hp @ lvl 50 guestimate (very generous imo):

In FoG: -5%hp / 5sec ~ -1%hp/sec
MT: -15%hp +7.5%hp in mana / 10sec

In FoG while MTing every chance with +400hp: -10hp/sec +3mp/sec extra

For some percpective -- In FoG while MTing every chance:

2000hp: -50hp/sec +15mp/sec
2400hp: -60hp/sec +18mp/sec

3000hp: -75hp/sec +22.5mp/sec
3400hp: -85hp/sec +25.5mp/sec

Those are just base numbers w/o any pacts or buffs. In both cases the BMG will kill himself in 40secs (-2.5%hp/sec). It seems so long as your heals & taps have an hp/mp ratio > 3.33 you start to gain more efficiency from MTs. And this is true no matter the return of hp on +con. So to turely gain more from MTs it seems +vit and +int (your choice of self-healing) will do more than just straight up +con.

Now this is only done without any regard to casting time & global cool downs. I know hp/mp is not the only healer ratios that matter as hp/sec is quite important as well. Nor does this factor in any negation of the hp drain you place on yourself with FoG + MT through either a secondary healer, symbiotes, blood feast, etc. Just some more to chew on and I hope this is accurate and helpful.

[kraznor]

Just using your 80con = 400hp @ lvl 50 guestimate (very generous imo):

In FoG: -5%hp / 5sec ~ -1%hp/sec
MT: -15%hp +7.5%hp in mana / 10sec

In FoG while MTing every chance with +400hp: -10hp/sec +3mp/sec extra

For some percpective -- In FoG while MTing every chance:

2000hp: -50hp/sec +15mp/sec
2400hp: -60hp/sec +18mp/sec

3000hp: -75hp/sec +22.5mp/sec
3400hp: -85hp/sec +25.5mp/sec

Those are just base numbers w/o any pacts or buffs. In both cases the BMG will kill himself in 40secs (-2.5%hp/sec). It seems so long as your heals & taps have an hp/mp ratio > 3.33 you start to gain more efficiency from MTs. And this is true no matter the return of hp on +con. So to turely gain more from MTs it seems +vit and +int (your choice of self-healing) will do more than just straight up +con.

Now this is only done without any regard to casting time & global cool downs. I know hp/mp is not the only healer ratios that matter as hp/sec is quite important as well. Nor does this factor in any negation of the hp drain you place on yourself with FoG + MT through either a secondary healer, symbiotes, blood feast, etc. Just some more to chew on and I hope this is accurate and helpful.

Sorry dude, but you got alot wrong with this. You don't take any type of regen into account, no Blood Feast, nothing. I know you mentioned that you didn't, but it's not an oversight, it's important info.

With regards to MT, THIS is the simple math:

2000 hp BMG gets 150 mana per MT
2400 hp BMG gets 180 mana per MT

3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT
3400 hp BMG gets 255 mana per MT

Let's go further - say you put half your points into con, 5 per level. I'm not saying I do, cus I don't, but you could, certainly. That'd be numbers like this:

2000 hp BMG gets 150 mana per MT
3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT

3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT
4000 hp BMG gets 300 mana per MT

Either way, the 400 hp (and more hp that you will get if you concentrate on HP and +con gear which I haven't even mentioned - or put more than 2 per level into Con) gives you 30 more mana per tap. And the +5 example gives you +75 per tap.

That's fact, period. The per second thing really doesn't apply because noone, and I mean NOONE casts it exactly every 10 seconds. Everyone casts is less than the maximum possible, which means getting more mana back each tap is even MORE valuable. Again, not even including the benefit of + resists it gives.


The last item people aren't even considering is raids. EVERY raid boss mob, you're gonna want a BMG to put a pact on the tank. And if you are built like a sorc with crappy con, you're gonna die, then the raid wipes.
I'm sorry, but Con is important to ME. You put your points where you want to, I'm putting mine where I want.

[Merro]

I'm sorry dude but what I posted is not wrong in regards to the effect of +con on the hp/mana ratio of MT. I showed that no amount of +con will return more mana per MT if you then use that mana to heal yourself eventually.

I left bloodfeast out b/c it benefits both builds equally unless blood feast is so good that you are always at 100% health. I left regen out b/c I didn't know if regen is a %hp / tick or an actual static value based on your level and only then modified by vitality.

And you cannot throw out the amount returned over time, time is just as important a variable. Whether the average person MTs every 12secs, 15secs, or 10secs... it makes no difference. I only broke it down to amount/sec to keep a uniformed unit and to give others an idea of how much the returns affect their character in a recognizable time frame. And you cannot throw out the negative hit to hp every time you MT.

"
2000 hp BMG gets 150 mana per MT -300hp
2400 hp BMG gets 180 mana per MT -360hp

3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT -450hp
3400 hp BMG gets 255 mana per MT -510hp


2000 hp BMG gets 150 mana per MT -300hp
3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT -450hp

3000 hp BMG gets 225 mana per MT -450hp
4000 hp BMG gets 300 mana per MT -600hp"

That +75 mana you got over Mr. 3000hp costed you an extra 150hp. 150 extra hp that must eventually be returned. Through heals and you'll spend that mana you just converted. Through regen and you'll be waiting longer. Through blood feast and you'll be waiting longer.

It can also be argued that one will not have to MT as often with more +Vit and thus making the larger amount of mana returned moot. But I don't have numbers for +Vit especially in regards to mana and hp regen.

And I as well, am not telling anyone where to put their points; only that there's more to the simple idea that more con = more mana.

[Gord]

Let me see if I understand what you guys are really trying to say.

Merro has less HP
Merro looses fewer HP when he hits MT, therefore he doesn't have to heal himself as much
Merro also gains less energy when he hits MT

Kraznor has more HP
Kraznor looses more HP when he hits MT, therefore he has to heal himself more
Kraznor also gains more energy when he hits MT


Is that what it really boils down to? Simple answers would siffice.

[CrimsonEdge]

Let me see if I understand what you guys are really trying to say.

Merro has less HP
Merro looses fewer HP when he hits MT, therefore he doesn't have to heal himself as much
Merro also gains less energy when he hits MT

Kraznor has more HP
Kraznor looses more HP when he hits MT, therefore he has to heal himself more
Kraznor also gains more energy when he hits MT


Is that what it really boils down to? Simple answers would siffice.

Pretty much. The main difference, though, is that it's still 15% no matter what. IMHO I think the conversion should be more like a 20% hp with a 75% mana conversion to actually make it... "usefull".

[Gord]

The point I was trying to make is the discussion is being cluttered by a bunch of numbers that don't need to be there.

MT is 15% conversion rate. It doesn't change. What changes is the HP pool of the person casting it.

People with bigger HP pools will see bigger returns on MT. Period. That's how percentages work.

Yes, people with bigger HP pools will also take a larger hit to their health. What everyone needs to remember is that the people with larger pools will be able to mitigate that extra hit better than someone with a smaller pool.

Healing spells have a fixed cost. As soon as the gains from MT surpass the the cost to heal yourself, there is no more discussion.


The only thing in question is wether or not the returns from points spent in constitution are worth it. MT has absolutely nothing to do with this question.

[Merro]

Well I'm sorry that I provided some numbers to show how +con does / does not effect other aspects to blood mage game play other than just more hp and more resists; numbers that were in fact asked for by another poster.

And discusing the efficiency of MT does apply to the discusion in that points spent in con are not spent in vit/wis/int. There's two ways to regain mana; stand and wait or use MT. How our attributes can affect this pool may be important to some players. Some players may want more mana now, +con is your stat. Some players may want more mana 100secs down the road, +vit/+int will be a better choice for their style.