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View Full Version : Many have failed, but I'll give it a shot -- Defining "Core Gamer"


Gargen
02-13-2007, 03:36 AM
**NOTE** While I'll try to avoid it, I'm sure at times my own personal preferences will shine through. It's not intended to talk down about anyone in particular, it's just really hard to accurately write from a perspective you don't have (there is one exception, but it's pretty obvious).



First, I want to dispel the idea that "casual" is the opposite of "hardcore" (at least for this article). I see three separate spectrums that are all associated with hardcore vs casual, and only two of them are even represented by those two terms. Most casual vs hardcore debates quickly turn in to flame fests as one person sees the existence of one trait and assumes the existence of traits from the other two spectrums that are often not there. There are some correlations. Hardcore and casual (as I define them here) would generally not mix very well.

The first spectrum is the one that contains the word casual. I would consider the opposite of casual as serious and will therefore call this spectrum seriousness. If you like to jump off bridges because the crunching sound when you splat at the bottom is funny or if you love NPCs with names like Bashum Gud (the ogre), that's casual. At its worst, low seriousness causes unnecessary wipes and frustration. At its best, it's good light hearted fun. A high level of seriousness is characterized by strict adherence to RP naming policies, serious focus on the task at hand, and an expectation of others to give the same level of seriousness. At it's worst high seriousness is rude and condescending. At its best, high seriousness is efficient, effective, and immersive. The varying levels and subcategories of seriousness could be a lengthy post of its own. Suffice it to say that somebody could be very casual in some ways and very serious in others at the same time.

The next spectrum is the amount of time that somebody has to play the game... or rather the amount of time a person intends to spend playing the game. Most people have more time for MMOGs than they actually spend playing them, and some people spend more time playing them than they really have to dedicate. I will use the term frequency to describe this spectrum. This could be further subdivided by number of play sessions and length of play sessions, but I'll leave it bundled together as it's not my main focus.

Finally there is the last spectrum, the "core" rating. Since the term casual is already taken, I'll use the term softcore to describe a lower core rating. I see core as the description of how forgiving you want your game world to be. Hardcore would be mechanics like difficult individual mobs, huge death penalties, slow exp, fast moving mobs, no teleporting, tightly packed mobs, and often lack of soloability. Softcore would be the opposite... easy individual mobs, little to no death penalty, fast exp, mobs are easy to outrun, easily accessible teleports, easy pulls, and abundant solo content. To simplify, the core rating is the challenge level. "Core gamers" would then represent people that prefer the middle ground. It is people that want some challenge while stopping short of masochist. Defining the middle ground is subjective and about as easy is defining the middle ground in politics. The best way is to imagine the most whacked out extremes and then create the spectrum between them. There is also the following question: if the majority of the people are at one end of the spectrum, is the middle ground the middle of the spectrum or the middle of the population? I would say that the middle of the spectrum is still the middle ground, you just happen to have an imbalanced population.

A sense of achievement is the most common reason hardcore players prefer the type of game that they do, but it's not the only reason. Teleporting, for example, has an effect on the economy, grouping dynamics, and player concentration. Others support high death penalties for the Darwinian affect it can have on player advancement. Some people don't want a game where people can solo because of the affect on finding and building groups.

Softcore players realy need to be divided in to two categories. I will refer to them as Type A and Type B. Type A players are people that want to play to relax and just don't want to be tied up with time commitment requirements or frustrated by a bunch of unforgiving game mechanics. Type B softcore players are the players that want easy mechanics because they just don't have the life skills (e.g. patience, tact, or ingenuity) to deal with with adversity. I'm sure all softcore players consider themselves Type A, and most are right, but the Type B players give them all a bad name. If a Type A dies at the bottom of a dungeon, they sigh heavily and decide if they want to go back and get it or take the summon penalty. If it happens enough times they'll decide the game doesn't fit their style and move on. If a Type B person dies at the bottom of a dungeon, it completely ruins their day (possibly on the verge of rage) and they head straight to the nearest message board to rant about the horrible mechanics of the game... or perhaps they'll get frustrated with the pace of advancement rather taking the time to explore all of the content at their level. Type A players wouldn't be too worried about slow advancement as long as there was enough content to keep them entertained. I hope to see Type A players in Vanguard as they definitely add to the community, but could do without the Type B.

Looking at the history of MMOGs in this context shows how the MMOG community got where it is today. When EQ and UO were the only choices, players played a relatively hardcore game or nothing at all. Players were forced to adjust their seriousness to survive. For the most part, the games that followed had at least a mid level core rating. FFXI probably had the highest core rating of the major MMOGs... then WoW came out. WoW has one of the lowest core ratings and therefore also doesn't require very much seriousness. Now here we are with Vanguard, its mid level core rating, and the required seriousness that goes with it. The targetted customers are the old-school players that found WoW unfulfilling, the new players that want more challenge than WoW provides (sound familiar?).




CSF Rating

While I'm at it, I decide to create a system (ala the Bartle Test) to show where you (or a game) falls on the spectrum. Maybe some day a test will follow it up. The CSF raitng is a three digit number that rates each of Core, Seriousness, and Frequency (in that order) on a scale of 0-9. 0 represents softcore, casual, and infrequent while 9 represents hardcore, serious, and frequent. Just think of a 1-10 scale and subtract 1 (I used 0-9 so it will always be three digits)

Vanguard would be a have a core rating of 5, seriousness of 6, and a frequency requirement of 2 for a CSF rating of 562. From my limited WoW experience and what I've heard, WoW would be somewhere near 111. It shoots for the low end of each without going too extreme. I would put original EQ at 887. I would put current (end-game raiding) EQ at 786, but has high ratings for different reasons (EQ raiding from Gates of Discord/Omens of War and beyond is brutal).

My personal preference is about 662. As you can see, Vanguard fits my taste quite well. There is more to it than CSF rating, but IMO CSF is what determines if a game is "right for you" and everything after that is just how well the developers do. Now if Sigil can iron out the bugs, finish up all the features, and flesh out the fluff content we can convert a whole new generations of core gamers. (re: fluff content -- I absolutely love the LOTR bard skill to actually play songs with their keyboard... I'm glad Sigil didn't focus on those kinds of features and instead made a huge world, but a few of those would be great down the road)

rabb1t
02-13-2007, 04:15 AM
Not to dis on yer bla bla, but…

Hardcore would be mechanics like difficult individual mobs, huge death penalties, slow exp, fast moving mobs, no teleporting, tightly packed mobs, and often lack of soloability. Softcore would be the opposite... easy individual mobs, little to no death penalty, fast exp, mobs are easy to outrun, easily accessible teleports, easy pulls, and abundant solo content. To simplify, the core rating is the challenge level.

I disagree with your definitions. To me, the Thief series is about as “hard core” as you can get, yet there is no experience what-so-ever in the game, and ‘mobs’ move extremely slowly.

To me, plowing through waves of mobs like a game was a 3d Diablo does not make the game harder. Nor does waves and waves being triggered due to proximity make the game harder. (In fact, I think far less in VG playing any class than I ever did in WoW. In WoW I actually had to think strategically and time my various skills. VG is just 'spam x when it blinks.') To me, a game is made harder by strategy and tactics, and often times that has to do with less creatures you are fighting and a slower pace.

Type A players wouldn't be too worried about slow advancement as long as there was enough content to keep them entertained. I hope to see Type A players in Vanguard as they definitely add to the community, but could do without the Type B.

Due to the way VG is designed I’d say it is entirely unlikely to retain the interest of either player. As you near your teens it becomes less and less possible to see a result for a 1-3 hour play session. Yeah, you may complete a quest, maybe two, but often that will result in very little ‘tangible’ results. Your exp bar may go up a little, but it isn’t going to be a whole lot. You may get an item, but it more often than not isn’t something note worthy.

IMO VG completely fails to meet the interests of what they define as a core gamer. (See later down.)

As example, I think it was Sunday, I played for 4 hours. We were fighting and doing quests in a level 18 area (I'm 15) and I got about 1/4 level for it. That's it. No special loot. No new skills. No level. Just a small portion of one level.

Looking at the history of MMOGs in this context shows how the MMOG community got where it is today.

Yes and no. There are a lot of aspects in gaming that have not made it into MOGs.

As example – a game type I would love most would be one where you can complete a quest in ½ hour to 1 hour, is done in a single area (most likely an instance for you or your group) is highly tactical (like Thief or the Splinter Cell games) requires tactics and thought to complete (not body count) and experience is gained only a little bit within the quest, but most is gained once you actually complete it (and maybe the penalty for death is that you have to completely restart the quest). Ideally, things would be randomized so you wouldn’t know what to expect every time. A game like this has not come along. So yes, if you look at the games offered and those that are popular as driving the industry, sure you can see a trend, but you would ignore players like me who would play games like this that have not yet appeared on the market. In such a case the market is driven by what choices are made of those available, not what the market may truly enjoy most as not all options are out there yet.

WoW has one of the lowest core ratings and therefore also doesn't require very much seriousness.

Maybe I misunderstand you, or maybe you need to rephrase that, but if I recall you could get to max level in EQ1 in the same number of /played as it takes to max in WoW. (Roughly 10 /played in either case.)

If I recall, I got to max in EQ1 prior to any expansions in roughly 20 /played. Similarly, it took me about 23 /played in WoW (though I did do some crafting which slowed me down.)

0 represents softcore, casual, and infrequent while 9 represents hardcore, serious, and frequent.

I think you need to rethink that. Just because someone has a smaller amount of time to spend doesn’t mean they are ‘less serious’ about it. And, inversely, just because someone plays longer hours doesn’t mean they are automatically more serious.

The motivation behind why a player plays, and the desires and wishes they have in terms of reaching goals for each play session is not inherently tied to the amount of time they spend paying. Someone who plays a 2 hour play session may have the exact same motivation and hopes/desires as someone who plays 6 hour play sessions.

- - - - -

Sigil’s definition of “Core gamer”

Warcry Interview (http://vs.warcry.com/news/view/67774-Nick-Parkinson-Interview)

Our target audience is what we call the "core" gamer. It's the person who plays a few hours a night and maybe a bit longer on weekends.

GameSpy (http://archive.gamespy.com/interviews/march04/mcquaid/)

Describing the target audience as hardcore might be too extreme, especially with so many perceptions as to what that really means. What we are trying to do is offer a compelling, challenging, and rewarding game. Some recent massively multiplayer efforts have tried to water down that experience a bit in order to attract a more casual audience. We actually feel that isn't necessary, and that both the core gamer and the more casual gamer can co-exist. For example, there are different areas in Vanguard specifically designated as casual, group, or raid.

PC Gamezone (http://pc.gamezone.com/news/10_12_06_01_03PM.htm)

Well, that’s our biggest challenge. People naturally assume the extremes – you are either a casual gamer or a hardcore gamer. In my opinion most people are in the middle, the core gamer. So we are really focusing on the message that our game is not a hardcore game. It has hardcore content, it has casual content but the majority of the content is core content where you can log on for an hour and have a good time. You can work eight hours on some rare item, but you can do it in two- or three-hour chunks.

MMO site’s definition (http://space.mmosite.com/webdata/html/2007/01/19/89bc54b72966.html) – a compliation of many quotes.

Thus, Sigil defines the “core gamer” as someone who has the same aspirations as the hardcore gamer in terms of goals and possibly motivation in playing, but they do so with only a few hours per session during the week and possibly a longer play session during the weekend.

Sigil is claiming there is no difference in motivation or desires between the core gamer and the other kinds of gamers (hardcore or casual). Your definition includes motivation as well as amount of time spent. These are really completely separate variables, which likely do not interact in a manner you are claiming they do.

Again, no offense or anything, but I think you are assuming there are interactions between variables that just don’t exist or do not interact in a manner which you think they do.

- - - - -

Before you go and do more study on this, if you haven't already you may want to give Nick Yee's Daedalus project (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/) a look. He is someone with a psychology degree, thus has recieved formal training on testing, measures, and sampling methods, and has been studying the online gaming space for quite some time. You may find he, or others, have already developed tools to sample what it is you are trying to define.

Gargen
02-13-2007, 04:31 AM
First... uh yeah you you seemed to misunderstand just about everything. :p

I disagree with your definitions. To me, the Thief series is about as “hard core” as you can get, yet there is no experience what-so-ever in the game, and ‘mobs’ move extremely slowly.
That wasn't my definition. That was my example of how it applies to traditional fantasy MMOGs. My definition is the sentence just before the part that you quoted (and I think you'll find it matches Thief quite well).


Due to the way VG is designed I’d say it is entirely unlikely to retain the interest of either player. As you near your teens it becomes less and less possible to see a result for a 1-3 hour play session. Yeah, you may complete a quest, maybe two, but often that will result in very little ‘tangible’ results. Your exp bar may go up a little, but it isn’t going to be a whole lot. You may get an item, but it more often than not isn’t something note worthy.
I agree. I'd like to see some Type A folks, but I don't expect it.

Yes and no. There are a lot of aspects in gaming that have not made it into MOGs.

As example – a game type I would love most would be one where you can complete a quest in ½ hour to 1 hour, is done in a single area (most likely an instance for you or your group) is highly tactical (like Thief or the Splinter Cell games) requires tactics and thought to complete (not body count) and experience is gained only a little bit within the quest, but most is gained once you actually complete it (and maybe the penalty for death is that you have to completely restart the quest). Ideally, things would be randomized so you wouldn’t know what to expect every time. A game like this has not come along. So yes, if you look at the games offered and those that are popular as driving the industry, sure you can see a trend, but you would ignore players like me who would play games like this that have not yet appeared on the market. In such a case the market is driven by what choices are made of those available, not what the market may truly enjoy most as not all options are out there yet.
I'd love that too, but I have absolutely no clue what that has to do with how the MMOG community got where it is today... I mean your talking about a game taht doesn't exist. How is that part of MMOG history?

Maybe I misunderstand you, or maybe you need to rephrase that, but if I recall you could get to max level in EQ1 in the same number of /played as it takes to max in WoW. (Roughly 10 /played in either case.)
That's why I separated "core" from "frequency". The difference is in things like death penalty, travel, dungeon design, soloing, etc

It seems like you read my words but didn't actually take in a single thing how I meant it and instead "saw" a bunch of paragraphs that gave the old cookie cutter definitions of "core", but the whole point of my post is that those old definitions are wrong.

I think you need to rethink that. Just because someone has a smaller amount of time to spend doesn’t mean they are ‘less serious’ about it. And, inversely, just because someone plays longer hours doesn’t mean they are automatically more serious.

but... but... that's whole reason why I separated core from seriousness from frequency, the whole reason why I even bothered posting this... ahh nevermind

Sigil’s definition of “Core gamer”
I think the Sigil definition is wrong, or at least misleading. That's why this post is here (general industry board) instead of one of the Vanguard specific boards.

Atoyota
02-13-2007, 05:47 AM
I did'nt read this, it's too early, MrSandman just left the building, but...

However it's defined, I think you need to define all three playstyles for accuracy.

Casual, Core, Hardcore, because as you see... Core falls between the other two according to how I define it.