Spyder07
02-14-2007, 08:23 AM
I'll try to be as precise and detailed as I can with reason behind said ideas or points as much as possible. If you reply with other ideas or counter any of them please post reasoning and any possible alternatives to keep it constructive and useful. Thanks =)
Any diplomacy dev feedback at some point would be greatly appreciated in addition once they read it or feel they have read enough replies to have a response for.
== Vendor sell items ===========
Currently at 120 skill doing mostly 150 parlays, the vendor sell items you get as rewards are rather low copper considering the time it takes to accumulate them.
Assuming if max adventuring level = 50, and each 100 skill points I suppose would ideally equal "Level 10 in diplomacy" for equal hours of effort "fighting" (parlay) ideal range skill parlays (equal to slightly higher perhaps).
The items rewarded for a 150 skill parlay should be on par with vendor fodder dropped off level 15 mobs, at skill 200 they should be on par with a level 20 adventurer.
Given an 8 hour grind session back when I was adventurer level 15 (23 currently), the vendor sell loot yielded more than skill 120 doing 150 skill parlays by a good margin.
I understand there is more risk involved in adventuring, is this the reason behind even 150 skill parlay wins being low value on the vendor? It seems alittle low for 150 rewards though for time involved.
Diplomacy so far doesnt hinge on anything other than itself all that much, the city buffs are nice but don't help the diplomacy player that much where as crafters (not a slam on them, just trying to figure out a way for diplomacy to be more feasible) can make a living selling items to others or using the items they make themselves. One sphere effecting another while yielding nice profit. Harvesters sell harvested items to crafters while crafters can sell harvesting items to harvesters/etc, crafters can sell to adventurers for gear/weapons, even adventuring can make great money selling very good drops or make very good money off vendor sell loot.
Maybe the answer would be for crafters to be able to create diplomacy gear complete with station faction stats or stats that help during the parlay. Though diplomats who don't wander into the crafting sphere or adventuring sphere may have difficulty affording said items due to vendor fodder having seemingly low values, and rewards that are diplomacy clothes/items really are only useful to other diplomacy players who have low funds to buy said items. It's like a catch 22 atm.
It seems Diplomacy is lagging slightly behind in being able to generate even a mild-fair income for effort/time spent.
The reason I ask about the vendor fodder is that there should be a better method of "making a living" at being a diplomat than what seems to be in place currently.
== Quests ===========
(Low priority, low issue)
It would be very nice to have the quest icon over NPCs to have a different looking icon or color to make them stand out alittle bit more. I know it sounds lazy but just seem to waste a bunch of time hailing and reading through things I don't really care about at the minute, it may be a good adventuring quest but at the time looking specifically for diplomacy ones. If an NPC has 2 sphere of quests (ie: Adventuring and Diplomacy) just put 2 icons over.
This is not a major deal, certainly nice in any case to even know they offer a quest. Just looking to streamline reading irrelevant stuff. Seems there are a good deal more adventuring-type quests than diplomacy ones so if you're looking for diplomacy quests you have to sift through alot of extra stuff.
Also..
Quest rewards (that hidden diplomacy xp amount) should yield more, though hard to tell without a sort of xp bar. Seems to yield little more than normal parlays, if any. Should have a real nice bonus upon completion for the running around some have you do whereas adventuring quests with similar running around yield a nice xp bonus.
Again, this is hard/difficult to verify without any sort of progress bar for diplomacy only in that time doing said quest could have gained closer to a skillup sitting in town than what the reward seems to give in same timeframe running around.
== Items (Rare/Heroic) ===========
Chance (even if low) to get rare and/or heroic rewards for turning in information to brokers. There doesnt appear to be much of a way to get rare or heroic items as a diplomacy player.
Is this limited to much higher levels, extremely rare and have not yet seen any, or are they only available by quests? T
hese rare/heroic items would have much higher station gains (say +50 soldier as example instead of a normal +33) or have a better chance to give you a bonus that is useable during a parlay.
== Progress Bars ===========
It would also be nice for there to be a sort of "xp bar" so we know just how close we're getting to that skillup. I'd assume its based off a hidden xp given there must be some sort of incentive to parlay harder or above simple parlays for points.
Currently at skill 120 diplomacy it takes a good while between skillups (and only will get slower), sometimes miss the skillups just cranking along, a reference as to how close that skill up is or if you just recently passed one would be great.
Just like the adventuring sphere atleast we can optimize our advancements by figuring out if much higher skill parlays are worth the trouble or generally equal or hair lower ones.
== Trainers ===========
With 120 skill and having to meet station requirements for factions. If the logic above works in the sense that adventurer max is 50, in theory would almost mean 100 points in diplomacy is level 10 and 200 points is 20, etc in diplomacy. This would mean every 10 points is 1 level.
Would it be bad if diplomacy trainers offered cards or some sort of training (as they offer spells and skills to adventurer sphere) to purchase at increments of 10 points then or possibly higher points?
Hear me out a second if you could, as adventurers get higher level and fight harder things, their trainers teach them new abilities and things, shouldnt diplomacy trainers also be teaching in a similar way to compensate for the higher skill "fights" (parlays)?
Based on the current system, it would be as if adventurers had to quest for all of their spells/skills which seems to be the case for diplomacy. Trainers should play a larger role so that we don't get hammered with "god" cards as we skill up and have to spend hours questing for abilities that should be able to taught by trainer after x number of skill ups. Right? Is there any alternatives to make it less of a sting as you get higher in skill points and begin to parlay even at the 300+ skill "fights"?
Compounded with the card issue, there doesnt seem to be enough gear available (even via quests) that I'm aware of that increases your chances of winning only the chances of meeting the minimal station requirements. I managed to get some gloves way early on that gives me 1 extra yellow point but have not seen anything else. Is there an undersupply of "stat" gear to help win parlays?
== The 20% increments in level attribute bonuses ===========
Would it be feasible at every 20% to be allowed to place 1-2 points into some sort of diplomacy area as a gain? Perhaps a faction attribute gain of 1-2 points to spend per 20% towards next diplomacy skillup point or after say 10-20 skillups you get said "attribute" points. This goes along the lines with the above trainer idea. Just another way diplomacy players can increase their actual abilities other than simply skilling up in the current state, or having to quest for all their new abilities (cards basically).
== Misc "fun" reactions by NPCs ===========
It would be kind of nice immersion where as you gain "notority" with certain station factions when you begin a parlay or hail them, they do different emotes or react as you pass by. Perhaps even a small chance so it's not spammy.
As I run past a guard with 100+ soldier station faction, they saluted or as I passed by somebody with 100+ crafter faction they waved. Something along those sort of things. Maybe even have them randomly /say things if somebody is extremely high on their station faction listing (see right below).
Make it maybe a 10m radius so they're not reacting to people in the distance, and a single person "recharge" of 2-3 minutes so somebody can't just keep running out of 10m and back to make the npcs have a seizure waving or spamming the area with text (though this would be limited to very high station standings).
This would be a fun little extra immersion feature that non-diplomats would see NPCs reacting to diplomacy players as they move through cities. It really could add alot of depth to the sphere and make the cities feel even more alive as if they're aware of their surroundings enough to acknowledge players they are familiar with or have high regards for.
Would make for a very dynamic setting/enviroment with this.
== Appearance ===========
Is there anything planned with the "noob clothing" appearances being updated? Alittle uniqueness to the item appearance when worn? Something that has alittle more regal look or a look that somebody is a diplomat in trainer rather than they look like a level 1 in starter gear.
Would really like to have the art department take a look at the blandness with diplomacy clothing. Most diplomacy players running around look about the same when they created their characters on day one even if they have nearly 200 skill or higher.
Please consider updating the appearance, it's a large part of what diplomats do, alot of what they do is based on their clothing, but their clothing is rather lacking in appeance/detail ;) For the time spent invested in diplomacy, even just something as trivial as changing the art/detail appearnace of the clothing can go a long ways in making the players feel like they're actually diplomats rather than looking like the character creation clothing.
Also noticed "held" items are no long visible when worn so far, alteast ones like the rose/scepter given at lower levels seem to not be visible anymore and were once so.
== Side benefits possibly ===========
(likely more difficult to implement)
In some way with diplomacy maybe have the ability to lower the broker "fee" with the brokers in towns when buying/listing items. Almost like haggling with the brokerage to lower the cost of doing business through your pull and connections. Minor little things just to make diplomacy have some nice little perks they make the time spent getting the skill point gains alittle more meaningful.
This may also be related to some sort of "trade relations" type of quest where you purchase at one location at x price via quest something off a merchant that is garunteed to sell more elsewheres but the item becomes no-trade. Upon taking it to the other location you can sell it for more. Place NPCs even in dangeous places with nice coin rewards, this would let adventurers want to be "bodyguards" to diplomats travelling to these places and they can split the coin when there.
Some more "depth" to being a diplomat would be great, and there's so many possibilities that can be done, it's just a matter of pros/cons and balance I suppose.
== Closing ===========
Diplomacy is great, and I'm really enjoying it between my adventuring, though it seems like the "cards are stacked against us" with advancing in some ways and could make it alittle more enjoyable.
Maybe the ideas I presented are way out of touch, BUT maybe it'll help brainstorm some ideas to make what we do even more enjoyable while making it so that there is slightly more flexibility/reward than a straight grind without little bonuses here and there that I know I get while out adventuring (which I really enjoy equally, so far level 23 and counting).
Any diplomacy dev feedback at some point would be greatly appreciated in addition once they read it or feel they have read enough replies to have a response for.
== Vendor sell items ===========
Currently at 120 skill doing mostly 150 parlays, the vendor sell items you get as rewards are rather low copper considering the time it takes to accumulate them.
Assuming if max adventuring level = 50, and each 100 skill points I suppose would ideally equal "Level 10 in diplomacy" for equal hours of effort "fighting" (parlay) ideal range skill parlays (equal to slightly higher perhaps).
The items rewarded for a 150 skill parlay should be on par with vendor fodder dropped off level 15 mobs, at skill 200 they should be on par with a level 20 adventurer.
Given an 8 hour grind session back when I was adventurer level 15 (23 currently), the vendor sell loot yielded more than skill 120 doing 150 skill parlays by a good margin.
I understand there is more risk involved in adventuring, is this the reason behind even 150 skill parlay wins being low value on the vendor? It seems alittle low for 150 rewards though for time involved.
Diplomacy so far doesnt hinge on anything other than itself all that much, the city buffs are nice but don't help the diplomacy player that much where as crafters (not a slam on them, just trying to figure out a way for diplomacy to be more feasible) can make a living selling items to others or using the items they make themselves. One sphere effecting another while yielding nice profit. Harvesters sell harvested items to crafters while crafters can sell harvesting items to harvesters/etc, crafters can sell to adventurers for gear/weapons, even adventuring can make great money selling very good drops or make very good money off vendor sell loot.
Maybe the answer would be for crafters to be able to create diplomacy gear complete with station faction stats or stats that help during the parlay. Though diplomats who don't wander into the crafting sphere or adventuring sphere may have difficulty affording said items due to vendor fodder having seemingly low values, and rewards that are diplomacy clothes/items really are only useful to other diplomacy players who have low funds to buy said items. It's like a catch 22 atm.
It seems Diplomacy is lagging slightly behind in being able to generate even a mild-fair income for effort/time spent.
The reason I ask about the vendor fodder is that there should be a better method of "making a living" at being a diplomat than what seems to be in place currently.
== Quests ===========
(Low priority, low issue)
It would be very nice to have the quest icon over NPCs to have a different looking icon or color to make them stand out alittle bit more. I know it sounds lazy but just seem to waste a bunch of time hailing and reading through things I don't really care about at the minute, it may be a good adventuring quest but at the time looking specifically for diplomacy ones. If an NPC has 2 sphere of quests (ie: Adventuring and Diplomacy) just put 2 icons over.
This is not a major deal, certainly nice in any case to even know they offer a quest. Just looking to streamline reading irrelevant stuff. Seems there are a good deal more adventuring-type quests than diplomacy ones so if you're looking for diplomacy quests you have to sift through alot of extra stuff.
Also..
Quest rewards (that hidden diplomacy xp amount) should yield more, though hard to tell without a sort of xp bar. Seems to yield little more than normal parlays, if any. Should have a real nice bonus upon completion for the running around some have you do whereas adventuring quests with similar running around yield a nice xp bonus.
Again, this is hard/difficult to verify without any sort of progress bar for diplomacy only in that time doing said quest could have gained closer to a skillup sitting in town than what the reward seems to give in same timeframe running around.
== Items (Rare/Heroic) ===========
Chance (even if low) to get rare and/or heroic rewards for turning in information to brokers. There doesnt appear to be much of a way to get rare or heroic items as a diplomacy player.
Is this limited to much higher levels, extremely rare and have not yet seen any, or are they only available by quests? T
hese rare/heroic items would have much higher station gains (say +50 soldier as example instead of a normal +33) or have a better chance to give you a bonus that is useable during a parlay.
== Progress Bars ===========
It would also be nice for there to be a sort of "xp bar" so we know just how close we're getting to that skillup. I'd assume its based off a hidden xp given there must be some sort of incentive to parlay harder or above simple parlays for points.
Currently at skill 120 diplomacy it takes a good while between skillups (and only will get slower), sometimes miss the skillups just cranking along, a reference as to how close that skill up is or if you just recently passed one would be great.
Just like the adventuring sphere atleast we can optimize our advancements by figuring out if much higher skill parlays are worth the trouble or generally equal or hair lower ones.
== Trainers ===========
With 120 skill and having to meet station requirements for factions. If the logic above works in the sense that adventurer max is 50, in theory would almost mean 100 points in diplomacy is level 10 and 200 points is 20, etc in diplomacy. This would mean every 10 points is 1 level.
Would it be bad if diplomacy trainers offered cards or some sort of training (as they offer spells and skills to adventurer sphere) to purchase at increments of 10 points then or possibly higher points?
Hear me out a second if you could, as adventurers get higher level and fight harder things, their trainers teach them new abilities and things, shouldnt diplomacy trainers also be teaching in a similar way to compensate for the higher skill "fights" (parlays)?
Based on the current system, it would be as if adventurers had to quest for all of their spells/skills which seems to be the case for diplomacy. Trainers should play a larger role so that we don't get hammered with "god" cards as we skill up and have to spend hours questing for abilities that should be able to taught by trainer after x number of skill ups. Right? Is there any alternatives to make it less of a sting as you get higher in skill points and begin to parlay even at the 300+ skill "fights"?
Compounded with the card issue, there doesnt seem to be enough gear available (even via quests) that I'm aware of that increases your chances of winning only the chances of meeting the minimal station requirements. I managed to get some gloves way early on that gives me 1 extra yellow point but have not seen anything else. Is there an undersupply of "stat" gear to help win parlays?
== The 20% increments in level attribute bonuses ===========
Would it be feasible at every 20% to be allowed to place 1-2 points into some sort of diplomacy area as a gain? Perhaps a faction attribute gain of 1-2 points to spend per 20% towards next diplomacy skillup point or after say 10-20 skillups you get said "attribute" points. This goes along the lines with the above trainer idea. Just another way diplomacy players can increase their actual abilities other than simply skilling up in the current state, or having to quest for all their new abilities (cards basically).
== Misc "fun" reactions by NPCs ===========
It would be kind of nice immersion where as you gain "notority" with certain station factions when you begin a parlay or hail them, they do different emotes or react as you pass by. Perhaps even a small chance so it's not spammy.
As I run past a guard with 100+ soldier station faction, they saluted or as I passed by somebody with 100+ crafter faction they waved. Something along those sort of things. Maybe even have them randomly /say things if somebody is extremely high on their station faction listing (see right below).
Make it maybe a 10m radius so they're not reacting to people in the distance, and a single person "recharge" of 2-3 minutes so somebody can't just keep running out of 10m and back to make the npcs have a seizure waving or spamming the area with text (though this would be limited to very high station standings).
This would be a fun little extra immersion feature that non-diplomats would see NPCs reacting to diplomacy players as they move through cities. It really could add alot of depth to the sphere and make the cities feel even more alive as if they're aware of their surroundings enough to acknowledge players they are familiar with or have high regards for.
Would make for a very dynamic setting/enviroment with this.
== Appearance ===========
Is there anything planned with the "noob clothing" appearances being updated? Alittle uniqueness to the item appearance when worn? Something that has alittle more regal look or a look that somebody is a diplomat in trainer rather than they look like a level 1 in starter gear.
Would really like to have the art department take a look at the blandness with diplomacy clothing. Most diplomacy players running around look about the same when they created their characters on day one even if they have nearly 200 skill or higher.
Please consider updating the appearance, it's a large part of what diplomats do, alot of what they do is based on their clothing, but their clothing is rather lacking in appeance/detail ;) For the time spent invested in diplomacy, even just something as trivial as changing the art/detail appearnace of the clothing can go a long ways in making the players feel like they're actually diplomats rather than looking like the character creation clothing.
Also noticed "held" items are no long visible when worn so far, alteast ones like the rose/scepter given at lower levels seem to not be visible anymore and were once so.
== Side benefits possibly ===========
(likely more difficult to implement)
In some way with diplomacy maybe have the ability to lower the broker "fee" with the brokers in towns when buying/listing items. Almost like haggling with the brokerage to lower the cost of doing business through your pull and connections. Minor little things just to make diplomacy have some nice little perks they make the time spent getting the skill point gains alittle more meaningful.
This may also be related to some sort of "trade relations" type of quest where you purchase at one location at x price via quest something off a merchant that is garunteed to sell more elsewheres but the item becomes no-trade. Upon taking it to the other location you can sell it for more. Place NPCs even in dangeous places with nice coin rewards, this would let adventurers want to be "bodyguards" to diplomats travelling to these places and they can split the coin when there.
Some more "depth" to being a diplomat would be great, and there's so many possibilities that can be done, it's just a matter of pros/cons and balance I suppose.
== Closing ===========
Diplomacy is great, and I'm really enjoying it between my adventuring, though it seems like the "cards are stacked against us" with advancing in some ways and could make it alittle more enjoyable.
Maybe the ideas I presented are way out of touch, BUT maybe it'll help brainstorm some ideas to make what we do even more enjoyable while making it so that there is slightly more flexibility/reward than a straight grind without little bonuses here and there that I know I get while out adventuring (which I really enjoy equally, so far level 23 and counting).