Warrior aggro question

[Sanndor]

There have been a handful of posts complaining about the new endurance change and its effects on tanking. Most of those posts seem to have a handful of people reply saying they have no problem with holding aggro since the change. I myself am having a difficult time with it to the point of considering changing classes and I am looking for some help. Since the change I have been tanking in offensive stance only, because I cannot keep aggro at all in def stance. I can keep aggro a lot better in offensive stance but the leap attack endurance increase has made even that difficult.

So I was wondering what the people that are not having issues at all in def stance are doing different? What level are you? I am currently 20, a few percent from 21 and the abilities I got at 18 helped a little but not much. I taunt every time it is up, shield bash everytime it refreshes, kick everytime it refreshes and toss out a taunting strike every once in a while. I am still having issues with endurance and generally lose aggro to any damage dealer in the group and/or any healer in the group and blow my rescues fast. I often play with a monk which has an ability that gives me hate and still I have issues. I have tried all different combos and it seems like the best combo I have found is if I am the puller, I hit taunt, SB, kick, taunting strike on inc and pray for a chain opportunity but then I am out of end and just SB, kick, taunt the rest of the fight as I get endurance and I still generally lose aggro shortly after that. I have tried a rend on inc which sets off the chain almost everytime but rend is so expensive it kills my endurance and screws me.

Is there some magic combo? Is there some magic ability I haven't gotten yet? Is there any type of spell focus or gear that gives bonuses to taunt and hate generation?

I have played a warrior in EQ as a main tank through the end game, a warrior in EQ2 for quite a while, and a warrior in WoW through the end game and have never had this much trouble. This has me very frustrated and any help from other warriors would be great.

Thank you,
Sanndor of Vita Infinita
Shidreth server

[Renfail]

There have been a handful of posts complaining about the new endurance change and its effects on tanking. Most of those posts seem to have a handful of people reply saying they have no problem with holding aggro since the change. I myself am having a difficult time with it to the point of considering changing classes and I am looking for some help. Since the change I have been tanking in offensive stance only, because I cannot keep aggro at all in def stance. I can keep aggro a lot better in offensive stance but the leap attack endurance increase has made even that difficult.

So I was wondering what the people that are not having issues at all in def stance are doing different? What level are you? I am currently 20, a few percent from 21 and the abilities I got at 18 helped a little but not much. I taunt every time it is up, shield bash everytime it refreshes, kick everytime it refreshes and toss out a taunting strike every once in a while. I am still having issues with endurance and generally lose aggro to any damage dealer in the group and/or any healer in the group and blow my rescues fast. I often play with a monk which has an ability that gives me hate and still I have issues. I have tried all different combos and it seems like the best combo I have found is if I am the puller, I hit taunt, SB, kick, taunting strike on inc and pray for a chain opportunity but then I am out of end and just SB, kick, taunt the rest of the fight as I get endurance and I still generally lose aggro shortly after that. I have tried a rend on inc which sets off the chain almost everytime but rend is so expensive it kills my endurance and screws me.

Is there some magic combo? Is there some magic ability I haven't gotten yet? Is there any type of spell focus or gear that gives bonuses to taunt and hate generation?

I have played a warrior in EQ as a main tank through the end game, a warrior in EQ2 for quite a while, and a warrior in WoW through the end game and have never had this much trouble. This has me very frustrated and any help from other warriors would be great.

Thank you,
Sanndor of Vita Infinita
Shidreth server


At this point in time, as a warrior, you cannot reliably hold aggro unless you spend some tender loving care time with the mob before your group mates jump in. Usually if you can get 2 rounds of your chains off (taunt, taunting strike, shield bash, stinging cut, and then repeat taunt, strike, and SB) and then call an assist, you will be fine. You will still have to rescue but at least it won't be ping-ponging.

It's not just up to you to maintain aggro. DPS classes have to learn to CURB their DPS. Critical hits are great and all but not when they start being spammed in the first 2 seconds of the mob getting into the camp.

[Renfail]

That being said:

I do not generally have problems maintaining aggro as a warrior. HOWEVER!, it is dependant upon my entire group working together. I've got a few over-eager DPS people in the guild who like to start spamming high-damage abilities as soon as the mob gets into camp, before I've had time to give it some love.

I can't speak for DK's or Paladins, but I know for warriors, we need at least 10 or 12 seconds with the mob before anyone starts spamming high damage attacks.

[merpa]

Infuriating shot to pull (being the first person to aggro the mob helps a lot)

Taunt->Shield Bash->Taunting Strike and hopefully Stinging Cut when the mob reaches you.

After that I hit taunting strike, taunt and shield bash as they refresh and I have the end for them.

That works pretty well for me at level 21. I use a rare crafted longsword and a crappy green shield.

[Renfail]

Infuriating shot to pull (being the first person to aggro the mob helps a lot)

Taunt->Shield Bash->Taunting Strike and hopefully Stinging Cut when the mob reaches you.

After that I hit taunting strike, taunt and shield bash as they refresh and I have the end for them.

That works pretty well for me at level 21. I use a rare crafted longsword and a crappy green shield.

Aye, if you can get infuriation shot off right at the bat it's yours for at least 5-10 seconds in-camp, which is enough time to get stinging cut off. BTW, I've found that, even while in defensive stance, rend armor triggers a critical hit 9 times out of 10. I rarely, if ever, miss getting stinging cut off on a mob when it firsts gets into camp, which allows cooldown time for the next mob.

However, most of the time in the 30+ arena you, as the warrior, won't be doing the pulling. Already @ 22, I'm letting my bards, psis, monks, anyone who can split pulls, do it. It's a little trickier because they have aggro when they get into camp, but if you just pace yourself and give the mob some love before your mates start beating the shit out of it, you'll be fine.

[Iskiab]

It has nothing to do with your group. It's something you're doing wrong but don't worry, it's not skill related.

You need to upgrade your weapon. That's it. I can guarantee without seeing your character that your weapon is a pos. I use the skills in the same way you've described and I almost never lose argo. Argo if anything is too easy to keep in this game. If you notice all your skills save kick are based off weapon damage. If your weapon is a pos holding argo is impossible. Get a nickel and a striking dust and get a weaponsmith to make you a nice weapon and all your argo problems will be gone. I barely worry about armor upgrades really because with deterioration they go to 0 too fast anyways.

For the same reason make sure you put your points 4dex, 4con and 2str per level. If you don't put the points into str your autoattack and CA damage will be lower and will give you argo problems.

[Sanndor]

Usually if you can get 2 rounds of your chains off (taunt, taunting strike, shield bash, stinging cut, and then repeat taunt, strike, and SB) and then call an assist, you will be fine.

Usually I get taunt, taunting strike, shield bash, stinging cut off and damage starts as I taunt the second time. Then I continue using abilities as endurance allows. Generally when I can get all that off before damage starts I can hold it pretty solidly for about 10-15 seconds...then the ping ponging begins while I wait on endurance. I always pull with Inf shot then a regular shot and sometimes a second regular shot before it gets to me. I have tried taunt, rend, stinging cut, taunting strike, SB taunt and this also allows me to hold the mob for about 15 seconds then ping pong. And I am not talking ping pong with Sorcerers, rogues, rangers....I am talking ping pong with a psi, shaman, and a monk(who FDs every 20 seconds and uses his hate ability on me). The shaman in bear form meleeing will pull aggro from me. I could understand a DPSer going to far and taking aggro but a damn bear shaman meleeing and casting a very occasional heal? Every once in a while a pally friend groups with us and I just give up and let him keep aggro cause the only time I can get it from him is when I do a rescue and he is not trying to get aggro.

You need to upgrade your weapon. That's it. I can guarantee without seeing your character that your weapon is a pos.

I am using a 12.00ish dps yellow shortsword and a crappy blue shield(not sure exactly of the names). I haven't found anything drastically better on the market/chat/or quests. I generally spend every penny I get on new weapons everytime I see something better cause I have been around the block and know how important my weapons are.

I don't know, it doesn't sound like I am doing anything different. I am definitely not a noob to tanking, which is the main reason this is so frustrating. I am gonna get to 22 and see if I get anything that helps.

[Renfail]

you get a 2nd rescue @ 22. Longer refresh on it, however.

In regards to someone saying that aggro management is purely based upon the level / dps rating of your weapon...utter crap. I'm not even going to waste my time proving them wrong, I'm just pointing out right off the top of the bat that your aggro abilities have hate numbers attached, and those abilities do not change with the level / dps rating of your weapon. Yes: your offensive abilities are based upon level of weapon and DPS of weapon as well as your STR, but your defensive/aggro abilities have zero to do with weapons.

[Spry]

I am using a 12.00ish dps yellow shortsword and a crappy blue shield(not sure exactly of the names). I haven't found anything drastically better on the market/chat/or quests. I generally spend every penny I get on new weapons everytime I see something better cause I have been around the block and know how important my weapons are.


Go to Hilsbury manor and kill the Caretaker Caine/Hilsbury Caretaker both drop 19+ DPS sword. Just becareful because he sometimes disappears really fast with loot on him so loot the bindable stuff as soon as he drops. The manor is above misthaven just past the Vampire Slayers.

[Sanndor]

I don't think aggro management is purely based on it and I realize that the abilities have hate numbers on them, but damage does produce hate so better weapons with higher damage help at least a little. If that weer not the case I wouldn't be able to hold aggro better in offensive stance.

[Kanevala]

It has nothing to do with your group.


BZZZTTT! Wrong. Aggro isn't solely Dependant on the Warrior/Paladin/Dread Knight. That's a flawed view.

Aggro management has everything to do with the whole group/raid, however given that it's still a new game people haven't learned to throttle their aggro yet, so it's bound to be an uphill battle in the early to mid levels.

As a defensive fighter, it's your duty to educate (read smack the DPS classes silly) until they realize to hold back once they start causing pingpong, or learn to manage their aggro so they don't end up pingponging in the first place. The same goes for over zealous melee healers.

[Irrukathus]

It's not just up to you to maintain aggro. DPS classes have to learn to CURB their DPS. Critical hits are great and all but not when they start being spammed in the first 2 seconds of the mob getting into the camp.

It is important that DPS classed should slow down a bit. BUT! as a lv20 DK I don't see it as all that important at least if ur only fighting 1 mob at a time (i.e. 1 mob pulls or good CC) Like last night for example, I was in a group where all 4 dps class went all out since we were pulling 1 mob at a time (19-20 4dot). I lost agro a few times to a brd but most of the time i kept hate.

I was tanking with a 2h gsword (18.77dps) and i think that helped some especially with a brd song to boost my dps, i even got a new record high for a "Wrack II" crit of 2200.

more then one mob though and i cant say the same thing.

[Iskiab]

Like I said, I have no argo problems whatsoever. Whatsoever.

If anything argo is easier to hold in this game then other games. It seems too easy. You be the judge. I had argo problems and then upgraded my weapon to a over 20 dps weapon. Since then I never lose argo. I only lose argo if we're fighting 2+ mobs and people are aoeing. Say I don't know what I'm talking about, you're the ones asking dps to throddle back and I ask them to go all out.

[Renfail]

Like I said, I have no argo problems whatsoever. Whatsoever.

If anything argo is easier to hold in this game then other games. It seems too easy. You be the judge. I had argo problems and then upgraded my weapon to a over 20 dps weapon. Since then I never lose argo. I only lose argo if we're fighting 2+ mobs and people are aoeing. Say I don't know what I'm talking about, you're the ones asking dps to throddle back and I ask them to go all out.


Can we have your group makeup? I have a guild over 40+ people who I group with and on a regular basis, someone is pulling aggro and making me work at tanking. We are all progressively geared individuals (i.e. hardcore guild). Could be that the melee DPS in your party aren't geared up to par, or your DPS casters don't have enough int/focus items. I find it *extremely* hard to believe that you have such flawlessly good luck holding aggro when that is not the way of Vanguard.

[Renfail]

BZZZTTT! Wrong. Aggro isn't solely Dependant on the Warrior/Paladin/Dread Knight. That's a flawed view.

Aggro management has everything to do with the whole group/raid, however given that it's still a new game people haven't learned to throttle their aggro yet, so it's bound to be an uphill battle in the early to mid levels.

As a defensive fighter, it's your duty to educate (read smack the DPS classes silly) until they realize to hold back once they start causing pingpong, or learn to manage their aggro so they don't end up pingponging in the first place. The same goes for over zealous melee healers.

As any long-time player, long-time raider knows, it's important that your DPS classes learn how to properly DPS, and that your healers learn how to properly heal. I've yet to play a game where this is not the case.

Generally I do not have very much problem with controling aggro, save for a couple of classes, or rather, people in my guild playing certain classes :D Monks and rangers have always been the highest DPS pullers, even into the late 30's in beta before the warrior nerf I would occassionally have a problem maintaining aggro vs. a monk or ranger. But they are really the only two classes, and if played by skilled/knowledgable player, are really not that big of a deal...if they only pull the mob from me on accident from critital hits.

People spamming their abilities while in your party = mob ping-ponging. I would love to see a warrior who can RELIABLY maintain aggro when: mob is pulled-upon mob getting into the camp your monk, rogue, bard, sorcerer, and psi all start blasting the mob within the first 2 seconds of said mob getting into camp-you try your best to get the mob onto you by using taunt, taunt2, shield bash, rescue1, rescue2, shout of defiance, maybe even a stinging cut....meanwhile the mob is going monk....ranger.....sorcerer.....ranger...monk....t ank....psi...tank...monk...tank...monk...tank...mo nk...tank....ranger...tank...bard...tank...tank... .tank....monk.....ranger....dead mob.
Now, maybe I'm a shitty player. I'd hate to think that was the case given our success rate over the years. But if it is the case, maybe I need a re-education in the ways of tanking and, specifically, warrior tanking in Vanguard. Because what I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that in order for a warrior to maintain healthy and reliable aggro in Vanguard, he needs time to get his aggro abilities off, and that means the group members need to be curbing their DPS until they are told to assist. A warrior should NOT have to be using his offensive abillities to keep aggro. He should be able to stay in defensive stance using his defensive abilities. Given what I have experienced, I hold aggro reliably and effeciently in defensive, but only if my group waits for me to get aggro first.

[Ratok]

I think the big thing to remember is that by the time you're 18-22, you're not just GENERATING hate, you're deHating everyone else. Withdraw is an EXCELLENT way to get that annoying Melee DPS to lose hate, and generally he only gets hit once or twice before the skill resets.

Not to mention at 22 you get a new rescue and an AoE taunt. I think its mainly skill to tank, though if STR did more to our base damage, or our skills added more than 70 hate, we'd be fine.

The end all be all, if you can't keep hate, either your group is trigger happy and criting every hit, or you're failing to do enough damage and hate control to do anything about it.

If the Auto-stance switch worked, we'd be fine because we can pull off like a 2k damage ability when the mob is starting to Ping-Pong to keep the hate on us, and switch back into defensive stance.

[Renfail]

I think the big thing to remember is that by the time you're 18-22, you're not just GENERATING hate, you're deHating everyone else. Withdraw is an EXCELLENT way to get that annoying Melee DPS to lose hate, and generally he only gets hit once or twice before the skill resets.

Not to mention at 22 you get a new rescue and an AoE taunt. I think its mainly skill to tank, though if STR did more to our base damage, or our skills added more than 70 hate, we'd be fine.

The end all be all, if you can't keep hate, either your group is trigger happy and criting every hit, or you're failing to do enough damage and hate control to do anything about it.

If the Auto-stance switch worked, we'd be fine because we can pull off like a 2k damage ability when the mob is starting to Ping-Pong to keep the hate on us, and switch back into defensive stance.

yep, withdraw gets spammed continually :)

you can auto switch. default is off, but you can /toggleautochange

This allows you to switch between stances simply by using the related abilities.

[GiggsBeckham11]

Like I said, I have no argo problems whatsoever. Whatsoever.

If anything argo is easier to hold in this game then other games. It seems too easy. You be the judge. I had argo problems and then upgraded my weapon to a over 20 dps weapon. Since then I never lose argo. I only lose argo if we're fighting 2+ mobs and people are aoeing. Say I don't know what I'm talking about, you're the ones asking dps to throddle back and I ask them to go all out.

It's hard to know what to make of this. I played a paladin for over 6 months in Beta and so consider myself fairly knowledgeable about gameplay mechanics.

My character was always very well geared from guild forrays into some very nasty places, and that includes my weapon.

Now, I cannot obviously compare warrior to a paladin directly, but I can tell you that at no point could I just hold agro so easily. In fact, the running joke with many of my DPS guildmates was that they could, at nearly any time of their choosing, spam their abilities/crits and steal my agro. It wouldn't matter how much I did, they took it.

[Iskiab]

Well now you've got me worried I opened my big mouth and there will be crying from pallies about nurfing our argo.

Let me rephrase. I'm about the same level as the op so I don't have my aoe taunt yet. There are some classes that can pull hate. Monks seem to from time to time, rangers can too. Psionicists seem to surprisingly be able to when they spam that attack that drains their health. If we're fighting multiple mobs the bards and sorcerers can from aoeing.

Either way, to the op. Upgrade your weapon to the highest dps possible and it helps hold hate a lot. This isn't a trick just for warriors, it's something all tanks can do to hold hate. I hadn't played a tank for 2 years so newer game standards might not apply, but argo seems easier to hold in this game vs others.

[merpa]

It's hard to make blanket statements about aggro, it depends too much on your gear and skill, your group's gear and skill and what you are fighting.

In groups where all are about the same level, and all about the same gear level, fighting against mobs yellow or red, I tend to do a decent job holding aggro (so long as people assist).

The times I have had the most problems with aggro were when I couldn't hit the mob. If the mob is purple or I am using a non-maxxed weapon skill all bets are off.

[Klaumbaz]

If your level 20 and only have a 12 DPS weapon, your behind the curve.

As a rogue, i have a 15 DPS weapon i got at level 15. from a quest near three rivers iirc.

Your weapon will have as much to do with your aggro retention as your hitting buttons at the right time.

And it's not my fault my most powerful strike is designed to be my combat opener.

[Iskiab]

So anyone still have aggro problems? I'm an armorer so I have some crafted items but most of my gear is from nameds. At level 25 I've noticed that some classes can pull aggro.

Sorcerer will pull aggro about once an hour or so on single targets, they can pull aggro aoeing at will.
Necros will pull aggro about once an hour.
Rogues never pull aggro, ever.
Rangers maybe pull aggro once ever 2 hours, unless they're attacking on pull which mine sometimes does and he will pull aggro 1/3 times on pull for a bit.
Monks never pull aggro.
Bards can while aoeing but are OK.
Psionicists can pull aggro about once every hour.
Druids never pull aggro.
Shamans in wolf form, pulls aggro once an hour from a crit and melee damage. Probably pulls aggro the most which is sort of funny if you think about it.

Now I'm usually a bit higher level then my guildies, but the sorcerer is a non guildy who's higher level then me. If you're interested in my gear and guildies to compare it's Iskiab on Thunderaxe.

What I do is prioritize my skills based and use them whenever they refresh. 1. Shield bash. 2. Taunt. 3. Kick. 4. Taunting strike. For commands I always use charge.