/ignore Constitution

[Thurind]

So what is the deal with constitution. Im a Dwarven Cleric and i get +2con as racial stat per level. Good for me i get more hp and stuff but how much more. Seems like 4con = 1hp and 10con =1% resist all. Str just got an upgrade from doing only two things poorly to doing three fairly good things. Why is con being allowed to slack off. Vit gives hp and energy regen which makes sense. Where is a stat that affects end regen. Nowhere and every class uses end like water for special moves. We have to get high end items that add to end regen but cant use con to affect it. con is gimped and needs something to make it worthwhile. I can get resist buffs hp buffs and dropped items that blow con out of the water. I do not know of any con speced tanks. I make armour and not a single tank class wants con gear. Please throw this dwarven cleric a bone. I am starting to wish that i was a vit or wis class instead of str and con. That coupled with the vit change to where if i dont have top of the line vit i get clobbered well this needs some work. Wheres the advantage in trading con for vit? please someone help me. Btw i am a dwarven cleric so thats why the harp on vit changes. I like them but give me a break.


Thurind: /ignore con

:(

[Shawnsan]

So what is the deal with constitution. Im a Dwarven Cleric and i get +2con as racial stat per level. Good for me i get more hp and stuff but how much more. Seems like 4con = 1hp and 10con =1% resist all. Str just got an upgrade from doing only two things poorly to doing three fairly good things. Why is con being allowed to slack off. Vit gives hp and energy regen which makes sense. Where is a stat that affects end regen. Nowhere and every class uses end like water for special moves. We have to get high end items that add to end regen but cant use con to affect it. con is gimped and needs something to make it worthwhile. I can get resist buffs hp buffs and dropped items that blow con out of the water. I do not know of any con speced tanks. I make armour and not a single tank class wants con gear. Please throw this dwarven cleric a bone. I am starting to wish that i was a vit or wis class instead of str and con. That coupled with the vit change to where if i dont have top of the line vit i get clobbered well this needs some work. Wheres the advantage in trading con for vit? please someone help me. Btw i am a dwarven cleric so thats why the harp on vit changes. I like them but give me a break.


Thurind: /ignore con

:(

You are a short race barely taller than a halfling. We shall call you stunty, we shall hug you and squeeze you and call you stunty.

You SHOULD have been dumping all your allocatable attributes into VIT (for max heals) and WIS (for max mana). And the remaining 2 points can go wherever you want.

CON won't even approach being worthwhile until it is on a ratio that is 10to 1 or more per point.

Why? Just look at how hard things hit .. to get ONE more hit of survivable HPs out of CON at 80-500hps a hit being done by npcs(at say level 15) depending on your mitigation you would at the 2hp to one con rate need over 40CON to survive an auto attack hit and 250 CON to survive a special move hit.

--Completely Utterly mathematically worthless at this point. even at 10-1 hp per con on the example above it give you only 5 auto attack hits or a tiny bit more than 1 special .. what amounts to a mere 4 seconds of survivability.

Bleh.

Maybe this sort of thing is what they are looking at for CON^^ and trying to figure our how to make it more worthwhile.

My personal view would be to up the value of the resist scaling so that you are getting more % damage resisted because each point now gets you only a so small as to be unnoticeable amount of resist bolstering.

[Thurind]

You are a short race barely taller than a halfling. We shall call you stunty, we shall hug you and squeeze you and call you stunty.

You SHOULD have been dumping all your allocatable attributes into VIT (for max heals) and WIS (for max mana). And the remaining 2 points can go wherever you want.

CON won't even approach being worthwhile until it is on a ratio that is 10to 1 or more per point.

Why? Just look at how hard things hit .. to get ONE more hit of survivable HPs out of CON at 80-500hps a hit being done by npcs(at say level 15) depending on your mitigation you would at the 2hp to one con rate need over 40CON to survive an auto attack hit and 250 CON to survive a special move hit.

--Completely Utterly mathematically worthless at this point. even at 10-1 hp per con on the example above it give you only 5 auto attack hits or a tiny bit more than 1 special .. what amounts to a mere 4 seconds of survivability.

Bleh.

Maybe this sort of thing is what they are looking at for CON^^ and trying to figure our how to make it more worthwhile.

My personal view would be to up the value of the resist scaling so that you are getting more % damage resisted because each point now gets you only a so small as to be unnoticeable amount of resist bolstering.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Shawnson hah good one now get near my hammer and ill cut you down to eye level. All that aside i have been dumping into wis and vit but my racial is predetermined just want to get something other than cheesy cracker jack prize out of racial stat every level.

[Trillis]

I have noticed that as I level I get more from Constitution.

Right now I receive at level 22.

1 Constitution = 1.75 Hit Points

Not to long ago, though i did not bother to keep track of the level I was receiving 1/1 con/HP. Before that i remember seeing 1/.75 con/HP.

My totally wild ass guess is that as I gain level constitution will equal more HP per. However that is just a guess by me based on what i have seen so far.

[Kashou]

You SHOULD have been dumping all your allocatable attributes into VIT (for max heals) and WIS (for max mana). And the remaining 2 points can go wherever you want.

And this is what was supposed to not exist. 2 stats that were the best for a class. At VG's current state, this has failed. Might change in the future, which I hope. I see no reason to add points to anything but STR and DEX with my ranger, basically.

[Thurind]

And this is what was supposed to not exist. 2 stats that were the best for a class. At VG's current state, this has failed. Might change in the future, which I hope. I see no reason to add points to anything but STR and DEX with my ranger, basically.

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Thankyou Kahou i could not agree more. I wanted to create a battle priest so i thought a little bit of con would be great. If con added a small amount of endurance regen it would make my specials a lot more usable and allow me to get my concept to work. No i do not want to try to turn a dedicated healer into a dps moster nor is it possible so please no flameage. I love being a healer class and would not have it any other way. But it would be fun to be able to have some advantage for being a dwarf and having a softcap of 7con per level. :D

[bottleneck]

there is nothing wrong with 2 stats being the most useful for a given class, the problem is if the other stats are useless so that you can safely ignore them forever.

about the 4 seconds of survivability: that only applies if there is no healer present. With a healer around, the 4 extra seconds mean that you likely wont die during the casting time of the heal. Also, there is a huge difference between being one-shotted and two-shotted. However, your analysis is very valid for your situation.

I suspect that con-specced tanks will be very useful in some highlevel situations (say, bosses with slow huge armor-negating hits), but for solo play it currently seems like a bad investment.

but all in all, the real racial bonus if dwarves is that they ... are dwarves :cool:

[Quinalla]

It is unlikely a stat will ever add to endurance regen with the way endurance works now (fast regen and static 100 value). I agree con could use a boost though, perhaps each con point could give you slightly more hp/resist than now to make it more worthwhile.

[Sickpuppy]

I have noticed that as I level I get more from Constitution.

Right now I receive at level 22.

1 Constitution = 1.75 Hit Points

Not to long ago, though i did not bother to keep track of the level I was receiving 1/1 con/HP. Before that i remember seeing 1/.75 con/HP.

My totally wild ass guess is that as I gain level constitution will equal more HP per. However that is just a guess by me based on what i have seen so far.

AFAIK, this is correct.

[Moob]

--Completely Utterly mathematically worthless at this point. even at 10-1 hp per con on the example above it give you only 5 auto attack hits or a tiny bit more than 1 special .. what amounts to a mere 4 seconds of survivability.
By a hasty estimation, about 60% of the posts I see about con do not mention the effect it has on adding to the mitigation and potential resistance of all damage. I wonder if people don't realize this or just don't think it's enough of a difference to even mention.

[hawnz]

1 con = around 1.6hp and 0.1 resist for me at level 20.

1 wis = 14 energy and crits


after talking to many higher level folks, con does scale (as do the other stats as well), but only the HP part of it. the resists remain the same 0.1 resists per 1 point. the HP of it is still weak compared to the returns the other stats give. it gets above 2 hp in the 30s. it's around 2.3hp/con in the low 30s from what i have gathered. assuming a linear scale:

1.6 hp / con at level 20
2.3 hp / con at level 30
2.96 hp / con at level 40
3.57 hp / con at level 50

now, it could very well be a curve, but i'll need more info from you all to determine that. so if i could get your level, as well as your amount of con and the resulting HP you get from it from your allocation tooltip, that'd be a big help.

3.57 hp / con at level 50. assuming you dump 4 x con every level from level 10 on (4 x 41 = 164) that's 164 x 3.57 = 585 hp and 16 to all resists.

even assuming that wisdom didn't scale (and it does, i just don't know how much). at 14 energy/wis that i'm getting at level 20, that would be 164x14=2300 energy. assuming it scales at the same ratio of my linear con hp return

(3.57 hp - 1.6 hp) / 1.6 hp = 123% increase from level 20 to level 50.

2300 x 123% increase = 2300 x 2.23 (1.23 would only signify a 23% increase) = 5129 energy


so, would you take 585 hp and 16 resists, or 5129 energy and crits?

[hawnz]

By a hasty estimation, about 60% of the posts I see about con do not mention the effect it has on adding to the mitigation and potential resistance of all damage. I wonder if people don't realize this or just don't think it's enough of a difference to even mention.

it doesn't mention this in the tooltip. where did you get that it does the above (not being flaming, seriously want to know)? and if con has hidden bonuses, i would assume the other stats do as well.

[AsheMan]

it doesn't mention this in the tooltip. where did you get that it does the above (not being flaming, seriously want to know)? and if con has hidden bonuses, i would assume the other stats do as well.

I think he's referring to the spell resistance gain from constitution and the posible negation of all spell damage. I could be wrong though.

[Sune]

My question as a Cleric... what would you peeps recommend for my remaining 2 pts per level? I was putting them in Dex, but after the 2/15 patch, I'm trying to figure out what a better spot to place them would be? STR?

[Rollo]

Dwarf gets +3 to CON, +1 to WIS.

[kraznor]

1 con = around 1.6hp and 0.1 resist for me at level 20.

1 wis = 14 energy and crits


after talking to many higher level folks, con does scale (as do the other stats as well), but only the HP part of it. the resists remain the same 0.1 resists per 1 point. the HP of it is still weak compared to the returns the other stats give. it gets above 2 hp in the 30s. it's around 2.3hp/con in the low 30s from what i have gathered. assuming a linear scale:

1.6 hp / con at level 20
2.3 hp / con at level 30
2.96 hp / con at level 40
3.57 hp / con at level 50

now, it could very well be a curve, but i'll need more info from you all to determine that. so if i could get your level, as well as your amount of con and the resulting HP you get from it from your allocation tooltip, that'd be a big help.

3.57 hp / con at level 50. assuming you dump 4 x con every level from level 10 on (4 x 41 = 164) that's 164 x 3.57 = 585 hp and 16 to all resists.

even assuming that wisdom didn't scale (and it does, i just don't know how much). at 14 energy/wis that i'm getting at level 20, that would be 164x14=2300 energy. assuming it scales at the same ratio of my linear con hp return

(3.57 hp - 1.6 hp) / 1.6 hp = 123% increase from level 20 to level 50.

2300 x 123% increase = 2300 x 2.23 (1.23 would only signify a 23% increase) = 5129 energy


so, would you take 585 hp and 16 resists, or 5129 energy and crits?

I will check when in game tonite, but I'm pretty sure that 1 wis does NOT give 14 energy. You can't just take your wis number, divide your energy pool by it and assume that gives you energy per wis, cus it doesn't.

If that were true, then you'd divide your health by your con and it would give you health per point con, but that is invalid too. If that were true, then con would give 27 health per point (or close to it, my health being 2845 and con unbuffed 88).

You have BASE health and BASE energy, your stats give you bonuses to that base. I have 2845 energy, and 155 wis unbuffed. Iirc, when I scroll over my wis under attributes, I get about 5-600 energy from my wis. I'll assume 600, I will edit this when I get the real numbers.

If I have 600 mana DUE TO WIS, and 155 wis, that's only 3.8 or 4 mana per wis, NOT 14. Even if I'm mistaken and it's 1000 that I get, that's still only 6.5 energy per WIS, not 14.

You've been spouting 14 per wis, I'm pretty sure that number is incorrect. I'm not SURE that 4 is correct, but I think it's alot closer than 14.

[Quinalla]

My question as a Cleric... what would you peeps recommend for my remaining 2 pts per level? I was putting them in Dex, but after the 2/15 patch, I'm trying to figure out what a better spot to place them would be? STR?
I'm still doing dex myself. The advantage of more finishers because of more crits is still the most appealing thing to me about dex and the extra block from str isn't more appealing than that for me.

[hawnz]

I will check when in game tonite, but I'm pretty sure that 1 wis does NOT give 14 energy. You can't just take your wis number, divide your energy pool by it and assume that gives you energy per wis, cus it doesn't.

If that were true, then you'd divide your health by your con and it would give you health per point con, but that is invalid too. If that were true, then con would give 27 health per point (or close to it, my health being 2845 and con unbuffed 88).

You have BASE health and BASE energy, your stats give you bonuses to that base. I have 2845 energy, and 155 wis unbuffed. Iirc, when I scroll over my wis under attributes, I get about 5-600 energy from my wis. I'll assume 600, I will edit this when I get the real numbers.

If I have 600 mana DUE TO WIS, and 155 wis, that's only 3.8 or 4 mana per wis, NOT 14. Even if I'm mistaken and it's 1000 that I get, that's still only 6.5 energy per WIS, not 14.

You've been spouting 14 per wis, I'm pretty sure that number is incorrect. I'm not SURE that 4 is correct, but I think it's alot closer than 14.

that's not how i do it at all. that would be stupid. i take pure stat items, ie +5 wis neck. record my starting energy, throw on the +5 wis item, record that number. subtract the two energy differences and then divide it by 5. throwing on a +5 wis neck changes my mana pool +70 points. adding +1 wis in my allocations gives me exactly +14 to my energy pool. no matter what way i do it, right now i get 14 energy for any form of +1 wis increase i get (spell/gear/allocation points). try it yourself, it's simple.

[hawnz]

http://www.midgetsandmonkeys.com/pics/withoutring.jpg

i'm on a corpse run, so i don't have any pure +wis items on me, but this is good enough. i'm using a ring with +4 wis and +7 energy.

4 wis x 14 energy = 56 energy

so 56 energy from the wis, 7 from the +energy = 63.

i started with 1218 energy. so if i'm correct, i should end up with 1218 + 63 = 1281.

http://www.midgetsandmonkeys.com/pics/withring.jpg

[CopperheadFang]

A few thoughts on the Con issue..

I think the analysis needs to be split into 2 parts: con from items and con as an allocation stat.

I think the main thing from con is it's HP value. The spell resistance part just seems like a tiny number. The value could be more than I think it is, but doubt it.

When it comes to item con stat, the numbers just don't match: an earring with like 8 con vs. one with 24 HPs. Last I checked my warrior was getting 1.3 or so HP for every con, so definitely the +HPs is the bigger amount. This is kind of typical on gear, much more HPs on an equivalent piece of gear if it's in form of +HPs instead of +con.

As an allocation stat, I like it a bit better depending on class. You essentially get 2 stats that you can max, then 2 (or 4 if human) points left over. As a warrior, con is that 3rd stat for me after str/dex. A pure healer doesn't care much about int (BMG might want int for spell damage perhaps?), so con seems like a reasonable 3rd stat after wis/vit. Arcane caster wants wis/int/vit, so not really much room for con. Some offensive fighters would consider con after str/dex I think.. Pal/DK I could see ignoring con just because they have so many other useful stats (they do both casting and melee afterall).

-Rhaze Cain, Flamehammer

[kraznor]

You're still not right Hawnz.

I checked this weekend, and although it's a little wacky (I think stats in general are still fubar atm, as they change effects at random it seems), and at level 28, I have 1900 some mana due to wisdom (I find this by mousing over my wis stats, it tells you there how much is due to wisdom). I had 200 wisdom at the time.

This means that I am getting less than 10 mana per wis. What you failed to take into account is that you had 87 wis already, and that it is possible that it scales up as your wis gets higher, or down, or whatever.

I see by your HUD that your conversion is indeed 14, but mine is not. I wonder if this is a bug, racial, or what? So it is actually possible that it varies per race, I dunno. What I do know is that there is a LOT of variability in stats atm and they need to get concrete :confused: .

[hawnz]

You're still not right Hawnz.

I checked this weekend, and although it's a little wacky (I think stats in general are still fubar atm, as they change effects at random it seems), and at level 28, I have 1900 some mana due to wisdom (I find this by mousing over my wis stats, it tells you there how much is due to wisdom). I had 200 wisdom at the time.

This means that I am getting less than 10 mana per wis. What you failed to take into account is that you had 87 wis already, and that it is possible that it scales up as your wis gets higher, or down, or whatever.

I see by your HUD that your conversion is indeed 14, but mine is not. I wonder if this is a bug, racial, or what? So it is actually possible that it varies per race, I dunno. What I do know is that there is a LOT of variability in stats atm and they need to get concrete :confused: .


well, i don't know man. i talk to (more like randomly annoy) a lot of higher
players, asking them to do the same tests for me so i can see if things scale, etc. a few days ago i had a 32 cleric do the same wis test for me, and he got exactly 14 energy per wis. so while it looks like it doesn't scale at higher levels like con does, he's getting the exact same numbers that i am. i'm not sure why you're not tho. his wis was over 200. mine, as you said, was 85. we both got the same thing.

wait, i see you just said you did the test by doing a hover over. DO NOT TRUST THE HOVER OVERS! do the test just like i did and add/remove an item with pure +wis if you have it, or if +energy is included, factor that into the equation. only rely on your actual energy bar to do these tests. don't trust your tooltips! so do the test and get back to me. i'm guessing it's gonna end up being +14/wis if you go by your energy bar this time.