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View Full Version : Monk: Why we should pwn but don't.


Calibix
02-16-2007, 02:49 AM
I am a lvl 30 monk on Hilsbury, Dragon style ( Jaxinor ). I tank everything for my static group, as there (as usual) always seems to be a lack of competent plate tanks. Also, the majority of the time I tank in my offensive stance for the proc damage and agro. However, on some mobs/ multiple pulls I do switch to defensive for the ac and fire/cold resists.

I don't understand how some people say they can't kill 2 dots there lvl easily, I mow through them conserving jin and health fairly easily, though after a few mobs I'll need to eat some food. The crit decrease does suck, but its not nearly as bad as people make it sound. The crit system in and of itself needs work imho, its much to random right now.

That being said, monks still need a lot of work. The group I play with is very competent and generally consists of me, a shaman, necro, ranger, psionicist, and a sorceror. Of these classes, only the shaman doesn't consistenly out dps me. Ranger peels agro often, unless I get some good shots in at the start If there were a parser for this game yet, I would show you numbers. Unfortunately, all I can go by is general observation. The ranger can crit for 5k probably every half hour or so. I've never hit over 3.3k. Sorc can crit for the same, highest crit is 7.8k. Psionicist can crit about 3.5k on nukes, and up to 800-1200 on dots. Necro is a newer addition, can't comment so much, but he definetly rocks the house. Even the shaman has had a 2k+ crit, and dots for over 800.

There are 3 fundemental problems I see with monk dps:

1) Advanced finishers do less damage than finishers.

Not sure if this is intended, but as it stands adv finishers routinely do less than finishers. Part of this is because you must land a crit on the finisher to activate the adv finisher obviously. Kick of the heavens routinely does 200-500 less than flying kick, and about 0-200 less when it crits. Expand those ranges and you get an idea for 1000 fist/Thundering fists. That is just plain silly. Especially in the case of thundering fists, you get to use the adv finisher so much less than the finisher, it would only make sense that it would do more damage or at least the equivalent amount of the finisher's damage.

2) "Upgrades to CA's scale very poorly

I'm not in game to check the exact numbers (if someone wants to help me out here that would be great), but a perfect example is boundless fist 3 to 4. I was anxious to use it, so unbuffed I attacked an even 2dot with BF 3 and then BF 4. The difference was about 20-40 damage. Difference between Six Dragons Strike was about 40-60 damage. Holds true for every offensive ability we have, and Ignore Pain. This is a serious issue and needs to be looked at. If i get ambitious tomorrow I'll have the ranger do some testing with me to compare upgrade differences in our main attack (Boundless Fist for us).

3) "Secret" techniques need to be adjusted

First of all, I absolutely love the idea of secrets. I love the flair and versatility they add to the monk class by being able to add a specific damage/effect in a given situation. Secondly, this point is very similiar to the second. Secret damage in beta was one of a monk's primary offensive weapons. Like above, the damage on Secret of Fire scales very poorly, and when I get secret of Ice 2 tomorrow ( ok I lied, i'm like 3 bubbles from 30, lol, but I gotta get to sleepy soon!), I'll let you know how that scales. Also, I've heard concerns about the refresh time on secret of celerity being a little high. Heard it was 20m, which seems pretty high. I realize it will probably be pretty decent, provided the damage doesn't suck like the rest of the secrets (if it was like a double auto attack, that would so pwn). However, I don't see something that only lasts for 20s like that being worth a 20m refresh. It seems pretty on par in usefulness with Dragon's Rage, a dragon style technique that automatically crits if it lands, which is on a 5m timer.

Finally, I'd just like to say some other things quickly about monkish things. I can't stand that green border bug that happens on our abilities, even though I can't quite explain when it exactly happens. I'd like to use some of the nicer weapons I'm finding lately, but: 1) It is absurdly hard to raise weapon skills (2h slash, pierce, etc.) 2) attempting to do so is extremely unreliable and buggy. You could log in barehanded, put on a bladed staff, attack some mobs, then turn around and it will tell you you can't use hand to hand because no line of sight. You will not get 2h slash updates, maybe you will get bladed staff updates. if you take staff off and fight barehanded, you may still get bladedstaff updates. However, you start missing all the time because the game thinks you are using a bladedstaff still, and you skill in 2h slash is about 1/3 of max because you can't @(#&!@#(&$ raise it. logging in with the weapon equipped works sometimes, but skill seems to just stop updating at times. I have gone for over an hour on green mobs straight auto attack w/ no skill updates before.

Enough of my ranting. Please let me know what you think.
And I'd absolutely <3 to hear what a dev thinks about his. please please post a reply.

Thanks for your time, remember to FD fast!

TeH CaLiBiX

Shawnsan
02-16-2007, 03:25 AM
I think your ideas are sound and have merit.

I also think you use too much l33tsp34k to garner any serious consideration.

I say that because the people that matter, while they may Understand l33t(all geeks do), they will either be greatly irratated (most highly educated individuals are) or they will be greatly amused and just laugh and move on..

Irratated or amused. Neither gets the result you want accomplished.

I'd leave the l33t out and try real english.

My 2cp (which I can't spare since I am tanking )

Aeronis
02-16-2007, 05:58 AM
What I'd suggest to tweak the Monk:

-Bring back the monk's original concept role as one who created vulnerabilities to exploit. The Rogue has 5 vulnerability causes like the Monk, the Ranger and Warrior and other classes have four, most have three. The Monk should get six, possibly seven.

-The Monk should continue to be the best tanker of the light fighters. An eye to this should be kept in mind when possibly tweaking the class.

-Give the Monk a jin or endurance based rescue or aggro generating power, to give the monk the further flexbility he deserves. Also because he has trouble holding aggro with damage alone.

-Consider offsetting the monks lack of DPS and utility by making him the ultimate in flexibility. Allow him to switch styles on the fly, but switching back would be on a long recast timer similar to the Thestran Human racial.
This would allow the Monk to be a light tank if the situational calls for it, or to switch over to DPS if that's preferred, or going to harmonious if he just wants a mix of both.

-Monk weapons should be returned to the base 10% increase to crit chance, along with their fists having that value. Monks are more dependant on crits to keep their DPS up to par than any other class.

Sensillium
02-16-2007, 07:24 AM
I think your ideas are sound and have merit.

Agreed.
However I find myself moved to respond to your assenine comments. The OP has provided an intelligent insight, backed up with semi qualitative data, the basis of a sound argument.

The idea that the OP should be accused of l33t speaking is both hilarious and insulting, the OP uses nomenclature suitable for the topic at hand, i.e. an MMORPG. L33t speaking, by definition, is the substitution of alpha for numeric characters, where does the OP do that?

As you intimate yourself, by reference, to be a "highly educated individual...", I feel I should point out that you spelled 'irritated' wrong, twice, despite there being an automatic spell checker. :p

All in all I think you should have put that 2cp towards a dictionary, leave the pointless comments to the teenies.

My monk experience amounts to lvl 8, I have played at least 1 of every class to lvl 10, excepting Pal, Dru, and Sha. I am disappointed in my monks (mainly DPS) capabilities, but as with all the others I shall persist to lvl 10, just in case it proves me wrong.

Now what they did to Disc was wrong, with that crit rate I was GOD! :D Meh.. onwards and upwards.

Bonz
02-16-2007, 09:46 AM
One way or the other, they need to give us either more utility or dps, but I would prefer dps. I like a little utility, but I would rather be one of the top dps classes. Rangers and bards already have a high degree of utility and damage. If you just give monks a ton of utility, I think it makes us just a bard 2.0.

Anyway, when everything settles offensive fighters and offensive casters should all do similar damage. If they aren't going to give much utility like sorcerors and rogues, then I have no problem with those 2 classes at the top of the dps chart. If monks get more defense, then I expect us to be below them in dps. If not, then I expect to be at their level.

What I don't expect is to be out damaged by some of the classes you list. Simply put... this goes against the fundamental description of the class as an offensive fighter. Also, a dev in beta has stated that monks would be in the "top tier" of dps, which is part of the reason why I chose the class.

I would be dissapointed if this vision changed and they were going to make monks have more utlity, good defense and less damage. I would understand and just change classes.

My only request would be if anyone from Sigil that has any clue what is going on could please tell us what in the heck they plan to do with the monk and exactly what classes will be the top dps classes.

Tendeep
02-16-2007, 10:31 AM
Well, I have the most experience playing a Paladin (I love Paladins, but not in VG =(... anyway) and I would say that the Damage output vs Damage taken is far better than a monk... (Keep in mind my pally was only lvl 20, and my monk is now only lvl 17) Monks may have burst DPS with crits, but I was killing things with far less stress as a Paladin...

Very sad when a Tank can get nuts on mobs, while an attack class struggles... not to mention I saw a Warrior eating through the same mobs as me with no problems, while I would hardly live.

Calibix
02-16-2007, 11:24 AM
I think your ideas are sound and have merit.

I also think you use too much l33tsp34k to garner any serious consideration.

I say that because the people that matter, while they may Understand l33t(all geeks do), they will either be greatly irratated (most highly educated individuals are) or they will be greatly amused and just laugh and move on..

Irratated or amused. Neither gets the result you want accomplished.

I'd leave the l33t out and try real english.

My 2cp (which I can't spare since I am tanking )

Please show me this leetspeak you are talking about becauxe in the few sentences you have wrote, there is more leetspeek than my entire post. EDIT: I think I say pwn, and zomg once each. Oh noes! lol

This isn't my ****ing Brit Lit class. I'm not exactly worried about having perfect english. But hey, thanks for your helpful insight on the monk class!!

GG

Teh CaLiBiX

Calibix
02-16-2007, 11:27 AM
QUOTE=Tendeep;108700]Well, I have the most experience playing a Paladin (I love Paladins, but not in VG =(... anyway) and I would say that the Damage output vs Damage taken is far better than a monk... (Keep in mind my pally was only lvl 20, and my monk is now only lvl 17) Monks may have burst DPS with crits, but I was killing things with far less stress as a Paladin...

Very sad when a Tank can get nuts on mobs, while an attack class struggles... not to mention I saw a Warrior eating through the same mobs as me with no problems, while I would hardly live.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, it's not that I mind the damage/risk I take as a monk, it's just that my dps isn't inline to compensate for my lack of plate armor and taunts.

And /agree Bonz. /thumbs

TeH CaLiBiX

Cushdaddy
02-16-2007, 11:43 AM
One way or the other, they need to give us either more utility or dps, but I would prefer dps. I like a little utility, but I would rather be one of the top dps classes. Rangers and bards already have a high degree of utility and damage. If you just give monks a ton of utility, I think it makes us just a bard 2.0.

Anyway, when everything settles offensive fighters and offensive casters should all do similar damage. If they aren't going to give much utility like sorcerors and rogues, then I have no problem with those 2 classes at the top of the dps chart. If monks get more defense, then I expect us to be below them in dps. If not, then I expect to be at their level.

What I don't expect is to be out damaged by some of the classes you list. Simply put... this goes against the fundamental description of the class as an offensive fighter. Also, a dev in beta has stated that monks would be in the "top tier" of dps, which is part of the reason why I chose the class.

I would be dissapointed if this vision changed and they were going to make monks have more utlity, good defense and less damage. I would understand and just change classes.

My only request would be if anyone from Sigil that has any clue what is going on could please tell us what in the heck they plan to do with the monk and exactly what classes will be the top dps classes.

What he said:) Before anything else, I rolled a monk cause I like the yellow numbers on the top of a mobs head. I picked the class because they were supposed to be excellent at making the numbers fly:P I do think that sigil intends us to be a killer dps class and that they will remedy it. For now, I'll level my diplomacy and wait for the patch of destiny (not to be overly melodramatic or anything).

Fynn
02-16-2007, 05:09 PM
L25 Dragon monk here and I'll have to agree that dps doesn't seem to even keep up with group members damage of similar level. Crit's and finishers also seem less reliable and provide less damage than I'ld hoped by this point.

I'ld add that another look at 2H/martial weapons might be looked at as part of the dps problem and solution. From my casual observation of group drops, these kind of weapons don't seem to keep up (dps) with groups weapon drops of similar level (edit: ok I've just run across a nicey nice windblade since I wrote this). And it's not just drops. An (expensive) crafted windblade I picked up earlier in the week just had stats nerfed in half with last patch - making it worthless compared to dropped weapons of similar level. Won't get burned on a crafted martial weapon again, which is sad for crafting.

Still enjoy playing a dragon monk though - but I agree a little more dragon dps love does seem warranted :D

WildAce
02-17-2007, 06:52 AM
I would be dissapointed if this vision changed and they were going to make monks have more utlity, good defense and less damage. I would understand and just change classes.



thats the whole reason they have monk styles..

if you want dps you go Dragon, if you want good defense and aggro management your go Drunken, if you want great utility you go harmonious.


but as it stands after the altest patch only the dragon is viable at filling its role as dps. because the other 2 stances got hit so hard by the last patch that no drunken tank would dare pull aggro. and i dont really think harm. monk have a a good way to hold aggro from a caster/other dps.

i think they need to put monk evasion back the way it was just hard cap it at 70-75%

problem solved.

70-75% evasion isnt as over powering as some might think. especially when it rapes your damage in the process.

a monk without high evasion is nothing more than a Bruiser.. or lumbering street fighter.

Monks are supposed to be fast agile hard hitting knock you off your feet Wushu machines.

now stop pussy footing around and fix the monks to thier rightfull roles

if anything id swap the crane stance and drunken sway the Old ones with the respective names in tact. and maybe swap the penaltys except for harmonious it should be -10 -15% for the +30% dodge

and -12% accuracy for the +20% dodge/block/parry.

being a drunken monk you wouldnt loose damage if anything you would hit harder. so the accuracy penalty is fitting.

drunken monks are supposed to be decent secondary tanks in a jam. why else would they get taunting abilitys if they arnt expected to dodge and avoid a bunch of attacks...

i play a lvl 25 monk Yuanjia on Woefeather.

and ive already tried all 3 of the staces atleast 2 times each trying to figure out which role i like to play. but after the patch i have no choice but to be Dragon. if i cant evade anything with the other styles why play them for so much less damage?

Puffy
02-17-2007, 10:36 AM
I play a drunken monk so my group could have a decent off tank, for adds, and just fill in as a ghetto one when our plate tank isnt around. I *never* expected to tank better than them, or tank any raid mobs.


im just confused why they would want to nerf evasion to uselessness? just remove the taunt skill from the drunken monk and give us more dps please, oh and rename the drunken style to dragon2 while u are at it.

Khurn
02-18-2007, 01:03 PM
Yeah collateral damage from dropping Ranger Evasion, since they have no forms it was basically add Parrying Dagger + defense for high melee evasion, best of both worlds. Since both offensive fighters they did it to all classes in that group :( It was supposedly in the "Vision" for high evasion for drunks.

Still think the plate tanks need some type of toys, need for grouping love. Just pump the hate bonus component on any skills with a hate bonus a bit more. Rescues are cool though, time for an ALT!