SOE is annoying the customers and breaking my local Law with the registration system

[Thergar]

I bought this game with an assumption that I could try this game freely during those 30 days of free playtime and I was surprised when the game asked for my credit card information.

As I don't have a credit card and no SOE game cards are imported to my country I decided to purchase a game card from a foreign country and I asked the shop to send the key to my E-mail. However, my bank requires 3-4 days to transfer my money.

Meanwhile, I tried my buddy key which to my surprise worked fine. Sadly, I had already entered my CD key to another account which means to my knowledge that I will not be able to continue playing with that other account.

SOE violates the Consumer protection Law of Finland and the laws of most other European countries with their marketing policy.

Specifically,

Section 4 (1072/2000)
If several consumer goods or services are being marketed at one price or so that
the purchase of a good or service entitles one to another good or service at a
3
reduced price or to another specific benefit, the following information shall be
clearly noted in the marketing:
(1) the content and value of the offer and, for goods and services marketed at
one price, their individual prices, unless the individual price of a good or
service is less than EUR 10;
(2) the conditions of the offer, especially its duration and the volume
restrictions and other restrictions applying to it.
SOE does not inform the consumer of the price of subscription with the game package.

Also, SOE violates decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§. Moreover, the use of word "free" in consumer advertising is banned in Finland if the product is not truly given to the customer free of any charges whatsoever. However, I have seen reports of SOE representatives using the term. (For example: http://tinyurl.com/34y8bd )

[Thergar]

Why SOE can't simply offer the people who buy the game 30 days of free game time they expect rather than misleading customers?

Hmm... on second thought this thread should perhaps be in the general forums. Could a mod move this?

[Jacosta]

I bought this game with an assumption that I could try this game freely during those 30 days of free playtime and I was surprised when the game asked for my credit card information.

As I don't have a credit card and no SOE game cards are imported to my country I decided to purchase a game card from a foreign country and I asked the shop to send the key to my E-mail. However, my bank requires 3-4 days to transfer my money.

Meanwhile, I tried my buddy key which to my surprise worked fine. Sadly, I had already entered my CD key to another account which means to my knowledge that I will not be able to continue playing with that other account.

SOE violates the Consumer protection Law of Finland and the laws of most other European countries with their marketing policy.

Specifically,

SOE does not inform the consumer of the price of subscription with the game package.

Also, SOE violates decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§. Moreover, the use of word "free" in consumer advertising is banned in Finland if the product is not truly given to the customer free of any charges whatsoever. However, I have seen reports of SOE representatives using the term. (For example: http://tinyurl.com/34y8bd )

What they're doing is perfectly legal since you're not paying anything for the first month. The credit card is there to provide proof that you are either A: an adult or B: your parents approve of you playing the game. You have to be above the age of 18 to play the game without parental consent and you need to be 18 to be able to get a credit card. You're also not billed until after the first month of play.

[garath]

I bought this game with an assumption that I could try this game freely during those 30 days of free playtime and I was surprised when the game asked for my credit card information.

As I don't have a credit card and no SOE game cards are imported to my country I decided to purchase a game card from a foreign country and I asked the shop to send the key to my E-mail. However, my bank requires 3-4 days to transfer my money.

Meanwhile, I tried my buddy key which to my surprise worked fine. Sadly, I had already entered my CD key to another account which means to my knowledge that I will not be able to continue playing with that other account.

SOE violates the Consumer protection Law of Finland and the laws of most other European countries with their marketing policy.

Specifically,

SOE does not inform the consumer of the price of subscription with the game package.

Also, SOE violates decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§. Moreover, the use of word "free" in consumer advertising is banned in Finland if the product is not truly given to the customer free of any charges whatsoever. However, I have seen reports of SOE representatives using the term. (For example: http://tinyurl.com/34y8bd )

It does say additional subscription fees required on the front of the box. And the 30 days are 'included'. The box doesn't say free. A dev posting on a message board wouldn't hold up in court.

I can't speak for the back of the box since I did digital distro but I'm fairly certain all SOE games have the note on the back of the box "credit card required to play".

I could be wrong on the second point.

[Ruhgar]

Why SOE can't simply offer the people who buy the game 30 days of free game time they expect rather than misleading customers?

Hmm... on second thought this thread should perhaps be in the general forums. Could a mod move this?

Hmmmm, where to begin.

First, I have not paid for ANY time yet, as my subscription does not start until after my 1 month FREE that I got with registration.

So, that is clear.

You DID recieve 1 month free. You did not pay for it. You were NOT mislead. Whatever minor laws in Finland limit words on packaging sadly do not apply to products imported by third parties (ex, Sigil and SoE do not ship the products DIRECTLY to Finland, they are bought and shipped by distributors).

If I purchase a car and with that purchase comes FREE gasoline... I still need a license to drive the car to GET the gasoline.

There are MANY ways to pay for online games if you either do not have a cerdit card, or CANNOT get one. Gametime cards are obviously a good choice if available, but what *I* use for online purchases is a pre-paid Mastercard.

With a Pre-paid card I know EXACTLY what is being charged to it, and can limit any and all possible fraudulant charges easily. I suggest you look into that instead of calling Sigil and SoE liars (I reserve my judgement on SoE... :P )

[Thergar]

What they're doing is perfectly legal since you're not paying anything for the first month. The credit card is there to provide proof that you are either A: an adult or B: your parents approve of you playing the game. You have to above the age of 18 to play the game without parental consent and you need to be 18 to be able to get a credit card. You're also not billed until after the first month of play.
Because credit cards are not required to play the game that point is entirely moot. Game cards do exist.

[Jacosta]

It does say additional subscription fees required on the front of the box. And the 30 days are 'included'. The box doesn't say free. A dev posting on a message board wouldn't hold up in court.

I can't speak for the back of the box since I did digital distro but I'm fairly certain all SOE games have the note on the back of the box "credit card required to play".

I could be wrong on the second point.

Back of the box says in the fine print, "*30 day subscription included for new accounts only (excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card or SOE Game Card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Installation and Play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

[Jacosta]

Because credit cards are not required to play the game that point is entirely moot. Game cards do exist.

The credit card is for identity verification at the point you open the account.

[vgplayer]

Because credit cards are not required to play the game that point is entirely moot. Game cards do exist.

Well in swg you could put in a fake cc number till your free month was up.Make sure you put in the correct number of digits tho
(not saying to try this) *cough*

then after that just buy a soe all access card from best buy or something *shrug*

[Ruhgar]

The credit card is for identity verification at the point you open the account.


Actually, the OP does have it correctly. Since you can open and subscribe WITHOUT using a credit card by using gamecards the CC info is NOT for id verification. This does not validate his arguement however, it's simply a strawman that has nothing to do with his original statements.

[Jacosta]

Actually, the OP does have it correctly. Since you can open and subscribe WITHOUT using a credit card by using gamecards the CC info is NOT for id verification. This does not validate his arguement however, it's simply a strawman that has nothing to do with his original statements.

Actually no, since the game card takes the place of the credit card for identification purposes. You either are an adult or you're parents bought you the game card is the thinking. You proved that you are above the age of 18 to the retailer who sold you the card or your parents consented to the purchase.

[ShadeVice]

I bought this game with an assumption that I could try this game freely during those 30 days of free playtime and I was surprised when the game asked for my credit card information.

As I don't have a credit card and no SOE game cards are imported to my country I decided to purchase a game card from a foreign country and I asked the shop to send the key to my E-mail. However, my bank requires 3-4 days to transfer my money.

Meanwhile, I tried my buddy key which to my surprise worked fine. Sadly, I had already entered my CD key to another account which means to my knowledge that I will not be able to continue playing with that other account.

SOE violates the Consumer protection Law of Finland and the laws of most other European countries with their marketing policy.

Specifically,

SOE does not inform the consumer of the price of subscription with the game package.

Also, SOE violates decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§. Moreover, the use of word "free" in consumer advertising is banned in Finland if the product is not truly given to the customer free of any charges whatsoever. However, I have seen reports of SOE representatives using the term. (For example: http://tinyurl.com/34y8bd )

Get a credit card? if people on welfare can get them im sure you can

[Ruhgar]

Actually no, since the game card takes the place of the credit card for identification purposes. You either are an adult or you're parents bought you the game card is the thinking. You proved that you are above the age of 18 to the retailer who sold you the card or your parents consented to the purchase.

Um?

There are no age restrictions in my country to purchase video game products. Since the gamecard is simply a series of numbers that is logged in a DB of "true" cards it has no identifying information attached to it... I'll stop here however since this is a moot point, and has nothing to do with the OP.

[Joodah]

Back of the box says in the fine print, "*30 day subscription included for new accounts only (excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card or SOE Game Card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Installation and Play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

Seems pretty crystal clear to me.

[recon]

I posted the following in another forum but it's relevant here:

Just FYI, after you edit your billing and can login, you can cancel and you will still be able to login until the free 30 days are up. The only advantage to doing this is that you will not AUTOMATICLY be billed when your 30 days are up. I'm not sure the game is going to improve enough in the next couple of weeks for me to want to continue to play and pay. Knowing me I, will forget to cancel before the 30 days are up and then would be pissed to be automaticly charged. If after the end of the 30 days free period you wish to continue to play you will simply notice that one time you attempt to log in you will get the message again "subscription required" and you can quickly enter the information again and are good to go. At this point, I just do not want SOE to start charging me automaticly for something I may not want.

[Lizard]

Wow! After online games with monthly fees have been out for a decade, you, and you alone, have discovered this horrible conspiracy to break Finnish law! None of the countless lawyers in the huge legal departments of vast multinational corporations have ever thought of this possibility! I'll bet you could sue them for a million bazillion Finnish...uh....findars, or whatever you call your money.

Or, maybe, just maybe, all those expensive legal departments have done their homework and YOU are misinterpreting your laws?

(Because, you know, I've seen this argument a few hundred times over the years, from many countries, and not ONCE has anyone posted of a success in court due to it. Kind of telling, eh wot?)

[vgplayer]

I posted the following in another forum but it's relevant here:

Just FYI, after you edit your billing and can login, you can cancel and you will still be able to login until the free 30 days are up. The only advantage to doing this is that you will not AUTOMATICLY be billed when your 30 days are up. I'm not sure the game is going to improve enough in the next couple of weeks for me to want to continue to play and pay. Knowing me I, will forget to cancel before the 30 days are up and then would be pissed to be automaticly charged. If after the end of the 30 days free period you wish to continue to play you will simply notice that one time you attempt to log in you will get the message again "subscription required" and you can quickly enter the information again and are good to go. At this point, I just do not want SOE to start charging me automaticly for something I may not want.

well yeah but you still have to enter your cc crap or payment method to get to that point.
just put in a fake number for 30 days

(unless you're the type that copies down someone llicense plate if they pass you on the freeway)

[Thergar]

Hmmmm, where to begin.

First, I have not paid for ANY time yet, as my subscription does not start until after my 1 month FREE that I got with registration.

So, that is clear.

You DID recieve 1 month free. You did not pay for it. You were NOT mislead.

That is simply not true. The game requires you to give your credit card number and choose a form of billing before you can even play the game.

If I really had received 30 days free I would have been able to simply enter my CD key and start playing. Buddy keys work that way for 10 days.
Instead, I had to buy a 30 days game card worth 13,49 €.

SOE makes no mention of a mandatory requirement to subscribe into the game with a credit card or to buy a game card. And that is illegal in Finland and in many other EU countries.


Whatever minor laws in Finland limit words on packaging sadly do not apply to products imported by third parties (ex, Sigil and SoE do not ship the products DIRECTLY to Finland, they are bought and shipped by distributors).
That is simply not true and I think I am the one who has expertise on Finnish Consumer Law.


If I purchase a car and with that purchase comes FREE gasoline... I still need a license to drive the car to GET the gasoline.

There are MANY ways to pay for online games if you either do not have a cerdit card, or CANNOT get one. Gametime cards are obviously a good choice if available, but what *I* use for online purchases is a pre-paid Mastercard.

With a Pre-paid card I know EXACTLY what is being charged to it, and can limit any and all possible fraudulant charges easily. I suggest you look into that instead of calling Sigil and SoE liars (I reserve my judgement on SoE... :P )
I am not calling them liars. I believe that they can be in good faith. Apparently the SOE legal team is not aware of Finnish and various other European Laws.

[Jacosta]

Um?

There are no age restrictions in my country to purchase video game products. Since the gamecard is simply a series of numbers that is logged in a DB of "true" cards it has no identifying information attached to it... I'll stop here however since this is a moot point, and has nothing to do with the OP.

It has nothing to do with purchasing software, but everything to do with the terms of service and EULA for Vanguard. The US government requires Sony and Sigil to protect kids which is why the credit card/game card is required for identification purposes.

FOR KIDS - Ages 13 - 18

If you are under 18 years of age, you need to let your parent or guardian know about The Station's privacy policy and get his/her permission before giving us any of your personal information, even information required for The Station registration.

Also, get your parent's or guardian's permission before using the message board or chat features of The Station.

Don't post your real name on a web site, and never tell anyone online anything private about yourself or your family, including your phone number and address. Use screen names at all times.

If you win a contest that has a prize, your parent or guardian will have to mail or fax us a signed note at the address or fax number listed in the rules for the specific contest that says it was OK for you to enter, and tells us they will accept the prize for you.

You will be told to ask a parent before you pay for anything on The Station if you are under 18. (If you buy anything online, you or your parents may send it back within thirty days if you don't open it.)

Some areas of this web site may have special rules for children under the age of 18. When you are in those areas you must follow those rules.
FOR KIDS - Under Age 13

A new law went into effect April 21, 2000 (The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act) which imposed new rules regarding the collection of personal information from children under the age of 13. Because The Station is not directed to children under the age of 13, we can no longer provide or extend the memberships of individuals under the age of 13. Accordingly, as of April 20, 2000, we deactivated the user names and passwords of, and purged our database of any and all personal information of, all individuals under the age of 13. If you are under the age of 13, you may not create an account on The Station, shall not be eligible to enter any sweepstakes and/or promotions, and are asked not to provide any personal information to the Station or to SOE. Link (http://www.station.sony.com/en/termsofservice.vm)

(1) You promise that you (a) are eighteen years of age or older, (b) shall not violate any of the provisions of the SOE Terms of Service found at http://www.station.sony.com (“Terms of Service”) or the Vanguard Code of Conduct found at http://www.vanguardsoh.com/coc.php (the “Code of Conduct”), and you are not an employee, agent or principal of any entity that violates any of the provisions of the Terms of Service or Rules of Conduct, (c) are not a principal or employee of a developer, manufacturer or publisher of video or computer games (other than Sigil or SOE or unless expressly authorized in writing by SOE or Sigil), and (d) are entering into this agreement on a completely voluntary basis with no expectation of consideration, remuneration or any form of compensation whatsoever other than what is expressly provided for in this agreement (IF YOU ARE UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE, YOU MAY NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE BETA PROGRAM WITHOUT THE EXPRESS WRITTEN PERMISSION OF (I) YOUR PARENT(S), WHO MUST REGISTER FOR THE BETA PROGRAM ON YOUR BEHALF AND TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE OBLIGATIONS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT AND (II) SOE OR SIGIL);

[Thergar]

Wow! After online games with monthly fees have been out for a decade, you, and you alone, have discovered this horrible conspiracy to break Finnish law! None of the countless lawyers in the huge legal departments of vast multinational corporations have ever thought of this possibility! I'll bet you could sue them for a million bazillion Finnish...uh....findars, or whatever you call your money.

Or, maybe, just maybe, all those expensive legal departments have done their homework and YOU are misinterpreting your laws?
Tell me how.


(Because, you know, I've seen this argument a few hundred times over the years, from many countries, and not ONCE has anyone posted of a success in court due to it. Kind of telling, eh wot?)
Then you won't have a problem with giving me an appropriate link to a prior discussion of this subject?

[Ruhgar]

To the OP:

Apparently you are one of those people that refuses to accept "true" reality versus "theoretical" reality.

The True reality is this:

SoE and Sigil are NOT out to get you or anyone else, they WANT you to play. If you are unable to do the simple things REQUIRED by all players to play the game... then I am sure they are sad.

They have not "broken" any laws, or any promises stated on thier box. Please, just get a pre-paid MC and get on with your life.

[Jacosta]

That is simply not true. The game requires you to give your credit card number and choose a form of billing before you can even play the game.

If I really had received 30 days free I would have been able to simply enter my CD key and start playing. Buddy keys work that way for 10 days.
Instead, I had to buy a 30 days game card worth 13,49 €.

SOE makes no mention of a mandatory requirement to subscribe into the game with a credit card or to buy a game card. And that is illegal in Finland and in many other EU countries.


That is simply not true and I think I am the one who has expertise on Finnish Consumer Law.


I am not calling them liars. I believe that they can be in good faith. Apparently the SOE legal team is not aware of Finnish and various other European Laws.

Once again the credit card is required and listed on the back of the box as a requirement. It is used for identification purposes only for the first 30 days. See my post regarding this with the applicable Terms of Service and EULA.

[Lizard]

That is simply not true. The game requires you to give your credit card number and choose a form of billing before you can even play the game.

If I really had received 30 days free I would have been able to simply enter my CD key and start playing. Buddy keys work that way for 10 days.
Instead, I had to buy a 30 days game card worth 13,49 €.

SOE makes no mention of a mandatory requirement to subscribe into the game with a credit card or to buy a game card. And that is illegal in Finland and in many other EU countries.


But you're not subscribing. You are not billed until after 30 days. If you had to buy a game card because you can't get a credit card, well, sucks to be you.


That is simply not true and I think I am the one who has expertise on Finnish Consumer Law.


So why don't you sue them and see how far you get?


I am not calling them liars. I believe that they can be in good faith. Apparently the SOE legal team is not aware of Finnish and various other European Laws.

Because, you know, huge multinational corporations tend to completely ignore the laws of the EU. It's not like they do business there or anything...

I have faith in but one thing in this world: The ability of corporations to cover their ass. The VG setup is the same as that of every other SOE game, as well as, most likely, that of every other major MMORPG. Assuming they've all been sold in Finland for the past decade, odds are, they pass muster under Finnish law. The law seems to be to be intended to prevent 'bait and switch' scams, and there is none -- Sony doesn't get your money until you've played for 40 days.

[Tuche]

ohwell

[Kasurot]

Who cares? Thergar, if you think you're in the right... take them to court. No one here can help you and I doubt the majority of people even give a damn.

Obviously there is something you are missing because otherwise SOE would have been taken to court prior to this. I'm somehow doubting that none of their other online games came out in Finland.

[Diaxis]

The credit card is there to provide proof that you are either A: an adult or B: your parents approve of you playing the game. You have to be above the age of 18 to play the game without parental consent and you need to be 18 to be able to get a credit card. You're also not billed until after the first month of play.

Sounds good until you consider that you can activate the account on a 30-day gametime card, which suggests its all about money and not about proving who you are.

Oh, and buddy codes activate without either one.

If you didn't have to enter a credit card, Sony couldn't play this game where x percent of subscribers forget to cancel in time.

I would suggest, like a previous poster, setting up a gift card - doesn't even have to be in your name - and activate your account with it, and then cancel your subscription before the 30 days is up if you're concerned about being charged.

[ShadeVice]

Its funny how out of thousands of people this one guy fails to understand...

look in the mirror buddy, evaluate yourself.

[Lizard]

Tell me how.


Then you won't have a problem with giving me an appropriate link to a prior discussion of this subject?

Sadly, the ephemera of internet trolls is rarely indexed by Google. But there's at least a few examples out there. Here, for instance, is one of your American cousins (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/browse_thread/thread/97cab2d4d48bb194/aa4d08c5494b12c1?lnk=st&q=Everquest+30+day+free+%22no+credit+card%22&rnum=1&hl=en#aa4d08c5494b12c1):


> omg you guys at EQ couldnt be any dumber, this is my 3rd e-mail
> stating that i have NOT received a FREE 30 days trial offer when i
> purchased your game... i have already made a new user and password.. i
> registered with you guys... it WONT give me my free 30days its telling
> me to sign up for a addtional payment plan which im not ganna do if i
> cant try before i decide if im ganna like this game or not. you said
> in your last letter to register my account (which i already did) to
> recieve a free 30 days WITHOUT any charges. now listen to me very
> carefully jackass, its telling me i have to pay again in order to
> play. i did NOT get any FREE game play. are you telling me i have to
> pay again in order to activate my FREE 30 days? i already bought your
> product for $9.99, .. you mean to tell me i bought a product that
> doesnt work? wheres my free 30 days.. this information should of been
> registered in your computers...my account key is (XXXXXXXXX) look it
> up... i havent gotten my free 3!0 days.. activate it at once, or im
> ganna get me a lawyer for false color="black">


A little more googling will find you plenty more 'rage against the machine', all coming to naught.

Suffice it to say:
Every major MMORPG follows these rules.
They are sold throughout Europe.
No one has managed to sue to get these policies changed (or, well, we wouldn't be having this debate).

So, once again:
a)You're the very first person to EVER discover this horrible breach of the law.
b)The law hasn't, in fact, been breached.

Which do you think is more likely?

[Thergar]

Once again the credit card is required and listed on the back of the box as a requirement. It is used for identification purposes only for the first 30 days. See my post regarding this with the applicable Terms of Service and EULA.
Firstly, you can play this game without a credit card as I will do. It appears that SOE does not follow its own terms of service. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

Secondly, it appears that the license agreement says that you have to be an adult to play this game. A minor can only play with the permission of an adult. However, that is a "shrink wrap" contract which is not binding in Finnish courts. Remember also that retailers don't allow computer games to be returned.

SOE utilizes misleading advertising as the age recommendation of 12+ is printed on the box. Thus, minors have a reason to believe that they are allowed to buy the game and play it like any other games.

Thirdly, all consumer goods sold in Finland must have documentation in Finnish and Swedish. SOE or the distributor undeniably violates the Finnish Law on this issue.

[Timi]

I'm on the internets and I'm a lawyer....R4WRZ!1!!

[ShadeVice]

Firstly, you can play this game without a credit card as I will do. It appears that SOE does not follow its own terms of service. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

Secondly, it appears that the license agreement says that you have to be an adult to play this game. A minor can only play with the permission of an adult. However, that is a "shrink wrap" contract which is not binding in Finnish courts. Remember also that retailers don't allow computer games to be returned.

SOE utilizes misleading advertising as the age recommendation of 12+ is printed on the box. Thus, minors have a reason to believe that they are allowed to buy the game and play it like any other games.

Thirdly, all consumer goods sold in Finland must have documentation in Finnish and Swedish. SOE or the distributor undeniably violates the Finnish Law on this issue.

Ive patented doing "firstly" "secondly" please refrain or my lawyer will be contacting you.

[Kasurot]

SOE utilizes misleading advertising as the age recommendation of 12+ is printed on the box. Thus, minors have a reason to believe that they are allowed to buy the game and play it like any other games.


This isn't advertising nor something that Sony decides. I'd assume if you knew anything about digital or entertainment laws, you'd know this. Ruff.

[Dasein]

Given the varying laws in place concerning things like customer protection, content controls, time limits, online gambling restrictions and the like, it almost makes more sense for companies not to make their products available outside one country, or release a few different versions in major markets like China. If you live in a small market with laws that are difficult to comply with, you're out of luck.

Thergar, it sounds like Finnish law is very unfriendly towards MMOs in general, so why should game companies modify their policies to comply with your laws? Why doesn't the government block their import?

[Worf]

Umm, doesn't every MMO do this? I don't see what the problem is.

[Thergar]

Sadly, the ephemera of internet trolls is rarely indexed by Google. But there's at least a few examples out there. Here, for instance, is one of your American cousins (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.everquest/browse_thread/thread/97cab2d4d48bb194/aa4d08c5494b12c1?lnk=st&q=Everquest+30+day+free+%22no+credit+card%22&rnum=1&hl=en#aa4d08c5494b12c1):
The legal systems of America and European nations are very different.



A little more googling will find you plenty more 'rage against the machine', all coming to naught.
I find nothing that is related to legal argumentation within European legal systems.


Suffice it to say:
Every major MMORPG follows these rules.
They are sold throughout Europe.
No one has managed to sue to get these policies changed (or, well, we wouldn't be having this debate).
How many European lawyers are playing MMORPGs?
How many European lawyers don't have a credit card?
How many European lawyers have the time and energy to start a discussion of this?

I guess that I am pretty unique.

How many European lawyers are interested in taking legal actions against a gaming company they are only interested in because it is producing them entertainment?

Not I. Why should I complain to a the Consumer Agency, bringing the sales of a game I like to a halt in the worst case scenario?

I am only asking: Why can't SOE offer 30 days of game play without having to subscribe to the billing system? Age verification is not an answer because SOE permits the use of game cards.


So, once again:
a)You're the very first person to EVER discover this horrible breach of the law.
b)The law hasn't, in fact, been breached.

Which do you think is more likely?
Option a). I haven't seen many Finnish lawyers in MMORPGs.

Besides, the Finnish Consumer Ombudsman has stated that many computer games do in fact break the Finnish Consumer Law. The authorities across Europe are simply not interested enough in computer games to actually do anything.

[Thergar]

This isn't advertising nor something that Sony decides. I'd assume if you knew anything about digital or entertainment laws, you'd know this. Ruff.
I do know what the age recommendation is. Still, the court considers what kind of trust it creates in the other party, especially in the case of a minor.

[Dasein]

So what you're saying, Thergar, is that no one will do anything. SOE and other gaming comapnies won't change because it costs them money to change their backend systems.

Gamers in countries where these games might be violating the law won't complain because they want to play the games, and the likely result of litigation will be that the games are no lnger distributed in their countires, which is not the outcome they want.

[jonyak]

The answer to this is that you are complaining about something that every game does. if you can't do what you need to play you are shit out of luck.

its like you complaining that you rented and got the first months free but you still needed to pay last months rent. well sorry. you have to pay first and last anyways. if you want the house you pay last or you go homeless.

this is reality. get used to it.

[Jacosta]

Firstly, you can play this game without a credit card as I will do. It appears that SOE does not follow its own terms of service. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

Secondly, it appears that the license agreement says that you have to be an adult to play this game. A minor can only play with the permission of an adult. However, that is a "shrink wrap" contract which is not binding in Finnish courts. Remember also that retailers don't allow computer games to be returned.

SOE utilizes misleading advertising as the age recommendation of 12+ is printed on the box. Thus, minors have a reason to believe that they are allowed to buy the game and play it like any other games.

Thirdly, all consumer goods sold in Finland must have documentation in Finnish and Swedish. SOE or the distributor undeniably violates the Finnish Law on this issue.

1. Which I've already taken of that point in that buying a game card from a retailer shifts the burden of checking for age of the person from SOE to the retailer since either you're an adult that bought the game card or you're a parent that bought the game card for your child.

2. The contract is available for download directly from SOE. It is the consumer's responsibility to check the licenses before purchasing the product. Thus it is not a shrink wrap contract. Actually the recommendation for Vanguard is Teen which means 13+.

3. If the game is imported into Finland then the importer must provide the documentation all in Finnish. That's not SOE's fault since the game wasn't distributed into Finland to begin with.

[Jacosta]

Oh one other thing, I want you to provide proof of your claims on what the game box says by scanning the box.

[Thergar]

Given the varying laws in place concerning things like customer protection, content controls, time limits, online gambling restrictions and the like, it almost makes more sense for companies not to make their products available outside one country, or release a few different versions in major markets like China. If you live in a small market with laws that are difficult to comply with, you're out of luck.
Thergar, it sounds like Finnish law is very unfriendly towards MMOs in general, so why should game companies modify their policies to comply with your laws?
Most European countries some of whom are large markets have similar strict consumer protection laws. Most games sold in Finland (like all EA games) have a Finnish documentation nowadays for example so it shouldn't be a big issue for a competent distributor.

There is nothing wrong with making a MMO that doesn't force the player to subscribe into the game and really grants a trial of 30 days. If SOE grants a free 10-day trial to people anyway why can't it give 30 days to people who buy the game?

Many American people have also requested that kind of change as Lizard pointed out.


Why doesn't the government block their import?
The government has more important things to worry about.

[Lizard]

The legal systems of America and European nations are very different.



But the "Wah! I've been ripped off! Even though it says otherwise on the box!" attitude is the same.

Why can't SOE change this? Because multiple sets of billing rules to fit multiple countries is expensive, and, not to put too fine a point on it, it would probably cost them more money to support Finnish law then they'd lose by forcing Finns to buy from third-party vendors who would ship to Finland from other countries. I am assuming that you are allowed to buy a game from an American store and have it shipped to you, no?

And, despite what you may have heard, America DOES have consumer protection laws (and you can usually cross the street without being challenged to a gunfight, too). While the details of the laws may differ, the essence of the law -- protection against false or misleading advertising -- is the same. Most industrial nations have fairly-compatible legal systems, so that trade between them is simplified. Other than very specific cultural things (such as no swastikas in Germany, or local rating systems), you'll find that the basic rules governing what it's legal to do in terms of consumer protection are pretty similair.

So while it is theoretically possible you can make a zillion bucks from Sony due to their anti-Finnish bigotry, I'd put my money on the Large Faceless Corporation. Remember: The race goes not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's they way to bet.

[garath]

While you can argue semantics and little things like EULA in finnish, the point of your original post was that SOE never indicated you would need a credit card or game card to play the game. However, it states it quite clearly on the back of the box as Jacosta pointed out. I'm sorry that you were surprised by this when you tried to play but perhaps there is a lesson that can be learned here and you will save yourself some surprises in the future.

[Jacosta]

I'm still waiting for him to scan the game box and post up the pics to back up his original claims.

[Thergar]

1. Which I've already taken of that point in that buying a game card from a retailer shifts the burden of checking for age of the person from SOE to the retailer since either you're an adult that bought the game card or you're a parent that bought the game card for your child.
If we follow that logic a person who buys a copy of the game must be an adult or a parent. The retailer would be obliged to check for an age provided that SOE would actually inform the retailer of that kind of requirement.

Thus, it would be completely possible to ship the game with 30 days of play time so that the player would not have to agree to pay a monthly fee for the game or to buy the game card.

I remind you that the credit card is not currently used simply for age verification. The players must agree to pay the monthly fee and must afterwards expressly withdraw from that binding contract if they no longer wish to do so.


2. The contract is available for download directly from SOE. It is the consumer's responsibility to check the licenses before purchasing the product. Thus it is not a shrink wrap contract. Actually the recommendation for Vanguard is Teen which means 13+.
That's not enough even under American Law. Mutual consent is required for the contract to be binding. Consumer is under no responsibility to surf to the web site of the publisher and look for a license agreement (Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp.).

My box (European) has a PEGI rating of 12+.


3. If the game is imported into Finland then the importer must provide the documentation all in Finnish. That's not SOE's fault since the game wasn't distributed into Finland to begin with.
Agreed but as importers don't have resources to produce such documentation most major publishers like Electronic Arts produce on their own for regional markets.

[Jacosta]

If we follow that logic a person who buys a copy of the game must be an adult or a parent. The retailer would be obliged to check for an age provided that SOE would actually inform the retailer of that kind of requirement.

Thus, it would be completely possible to ship the game with 30 days of play time so that the player would not have to agree to pay a monthly fee for the game or to buy the game card.

I remind you that the credit card is not currently used simply for age verification. The players must agree to pay the monthly fee and must afterwards expressly withdraw from that binding contract if they no longer wish to do so.


That's not enough even under American Law. Mutual consent is required for the contract to be binding. Consumer is under no responsibility to surf to the web site of the publisher and look for a license agreement (Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp.).

My box (European) has a PEGI rating of 12+.


Agreed but as importers don't have resources to produce such documentation most major publishers like Electronic Arts produce on their own for regional markets.

Post up scans of your game box. I want you to prove your position. Until then I will not continue with this.

[Devyn]

That is simply not true. The game requires you to give your credit card number and choose a form of billing before you can even play the game.

If I really had received 30 days free I would have been able to simply enter my CD key and start playing. Buddy keys work that way for 10 days.
Instead, I had to buy a 30 days game card worth 13,49 €.

SOE makes no mention of a mandatory requirement to subscribe into the game with a credit card or to buy a game card. And that is illegal in Finland and in many other EU countries.


That is simply not true and I think I am the one who has expertise on Finnish Consumer Law.


I am not calling them liars. I believe that they can be in good faith. Apparently the SOE legal team is not aware of Finnish and various other European Laws.Here is the statute as you posted:

Section 4 (1072/2000)
If several consumer goods or services are being marketed at one price or so that the purchase of a good or service entitles one to another good or service at a reduced price or to another specific benefit, the following information shall be clearly noted in the marketing:
(1) the content and value of the offer and, for goods and services marketed at one price, their individual prices, unless the individual price of a good or
service is less than EUR 10;
(2) the conditions of the offer, especially its duration and the volume
restrictions and other restrictions applying to it.

As it was explained to me:

This is referring to products that are actually sold together or where buying one item gives you a reduced price on another.

Vanguard does not fall under the specific critieria involved because it does not include the subscription with the game. You are in essence buying two completely seperate products; the game, and then the subscription. They are not packaged or sold together. This frees Vanguard from having to meet those guidelines.

Firstly, you can play this game without a credit card as I will do. It appears that SOE does not follow its own terms of service. (Not that there is anything wrong with that).

Secondly, it appears that the license agreement says that you have to be an adult to play this game. A minor can only play with the permission of an adult. However, that is a "shrink wrap" contract which is not binding in Finnish courts. Remember also that retailers don't allow computer games to be returned.

SOE utilizes misleading advertising as the age recommendation of 12+ is printed on the box. Thus, minors have a reason to believe that they are allowed to buy the game and play it like any other games.

Thirdly, all consumer goods sold in Finland must have documentation in Finnish and Swedish. SOE or the distributor undeniably violates the Finnish Law on this issue.The box says clear as day that a credit card can be substituted with a game card. No problem there.

The fact that the "contract" is not legally binding is honestly no big deal because they don't rely on the contract. If they decide they do not want someone playing for whatever reason (breach of fake contract or not), they can deny access.

SOE is not responsible for the ESRB rating on the front of the box. That is done by the Entertainment Software Rating Board, which game companies have no control over. They review the software and rate it so that people are aware what type of content will be in the game that they are considering purchasing. If you have a problem with how they rate games, you should probably take it up with them rather than Sony.

[Melios]

Post up scans of your game box. I want you to prove your position. Until then I will not continue with this.

Now why would a troll destroy his argument like that? :p

[Kasurot]

If we follow that logic a person who buys a copy of the game must be an adult or a parent. The retailer would be obliged to check for an age provided that SOE would actually inform the retailer of that kind of requirement.

No, the logic is that parents should know what their kids are spending their money/time on. They're assuming if they are spending time playing their game and spending money buying the card, their parents know this.

That's not enough even under American Law. Mutual consent is required for the contract to be binding. Consumer is under no responsibility to surf to the web site of the publisher and look for a license agreement (Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp.).
You agree to the license every time you start the game up. The license is also included in the game box.

My box (European) has a PEGI rating of 12+.
Again, this has nothing to do with Sony/Sigil.

[Thergar]

While you can argue semantics and little things like EULA in finnish, the point of your original post was that SOE never indicated you would need a credit card or game card to play the game. However, it states it quite clearly on the back of the box as Jacosta pointed out. I'm sorry that you were surprised by this when you tried to play but perhaps there is a lesson that can be learned here and you will save yourself some surprises in the future.
No, the point of my post was that what reads in the back of the box has no meaning under Finnish law because it violates the mandatory provisions of Finnish consumer Law.

This is the text in the back of the box:
"30 day subscription included for new accounts only. (Excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable Internet fees. Installation and play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

Nowhere is stated that what it costs to play the game. I quoted specific mandatory passages from Finnish Consumer Law which require such information. In fact, all consumers are entitled to know what one month of play costs. SOE is violating the Law with lack of price information.

I was fully aware that a credit card or a game card is required to play the game and I planned to pay with my Visa Electron which did not work for some reason. Instead, I bought a game card from Germany and I am waiting for the store to e-mail it while testing things with my Buddy Key.

[AsheMan]

Obviously something is lost in translation.

Everyone has told the OP that YOU ARE NOT BILLED FOR THE FIRST 30 DAYS. If you are not billed then how does that break your "Finnish" law?

[Eis]

Internet arguments like this are more about unrelenting ego, contrived over-analysis and above all, exhausting your 'opponent' rather than actual debate.

You really should put the straws down and halt the crusade as all this will amount to nothing but an uncomfortably tense and bitchy slagging match.

Then again, pointing this out will probably just lead to me incuring the wrath of the virtual combatants. ::runs away::

[Devyn]

Software and subscription are entirely seperate products, and no country's law dictates that one product tell you what another product will cost.

[Devyn]

Internet arguments like this are more about unrelenting ego, contrived over-analysis and above all, exhausting your 'opponent' rather than actual debate.

You really should put the straws down and halt the crusade as all this will amount to nothing but an uncomfortably tense and bitchy slagging match.

Then again, pointing this out will probably just lead to me incuring the wrath of the virtual combatants. ::runs away::Shhh, it's fun else why would we do it? :D

[Melios]

So your issue is that it didn't clarify the subscription cost on the box?

Or are you just a silly troll?

[Jacosta]

So your issue is that it didn't clarify the subscription cost on the box?

Or are you just a silly troll?

No scans of his box yet, so what do you think?

[Jacosta]

No, the point of my post was that what reads in the back of the box has no meaning under Finnish law because it violates the mandatory provisions of Finnish consumer Law.

This is the text in the back of the box:
"30 day subscription included for new accounts only. (Excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable Internet fees. Installation and play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

Nowhere is stated that what it costs to play the game. I quoted specific mandatory passages from Finnish Consumer Law which require such information. In fact, all consumers are entitled to know what one month of play costs. SOE is violating the Law with lack of price information.

I was fully aware that a credit card or a game card is required to play the game and I planned to pay with my Visa Electron which did not work for some reason. Instead, I bought a game card from Germany and I am waiting for the store to e-mail it while testing things with my Buddy Key.

You just sank your own argument since if you go to www.joinvanguard.com and subscribed to the game it tells you the price. It tells you right up front in the first sentence that you need a subscription to play the game and that a credit card or a game card is required to play. Reading comprehension does the body good. Also the subscription is a different product from the game, so it doesn't violate Finnish law.

[Thergar]

Obviously something is lost in translation.

Everyone has told the OP that YOU ARE NOT BILLED FOR THE FIRST 30 DAYS. If you are not billed then how does that break your "Finnish" law?
Because you have to buy a game card to play those 30 days if that is your chosen billing method.

You buy the game for $50 expecting to receive 30 days of game time in Vanguard with an option to buy more.

However, to actually play those 30 days you need a game card which costs $15. The actual price of the game becomes $65.

That breaks the Finnish Law.

[Thergar]

You just sank your own argument since if you go to www.joinvanguard.com and subscribed to the game it tells you the price. It tells you right up front in the first sentence that you need a subscription to play the game and that a credit card or a game card is required to play. Reading comprehension does the body good. Also the subscription is a different product from the game, so it doesn't violate Finnish law.
Under Finnish Law websites like that are entirely irrelevant. They are also irrelevant under American Law as I pointed out previously with a specific prejudicate.

[Jacosta]

Because you have to buy a game card to play those 30 days if that is your chosen billing method.

You buy the game for $50 expecting to receive 30 days of game time in Vanguard with an option to buy more.

However, to actually play those 30 days you need a game card which costs $15. The actual price of the game becomes $65.

That breaks the Finnish Law.

That's not what the box says and you're lying about it if you say that.

30 day subscription included for new accounts only. (Excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card or SOE Game Card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable Internet fees. Installation and play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside.

It states you get 30 days of the subscription included if you open up a new subscription. It states that you need a valid credit card to get the subscription.

[Jacosta]

Under Finnish Law websites like that are entirely irrelevant. They are also irrelevant under American Law as I pointed out previously with a specific prejudicate.

Actually not true since this falls under web commerce and since the business is based upon the internet with all billing done online the web page price is admissible in a court of law.

[HarmonyShidreth]

Because you have to buy a game card to play those 30 days if that is your chosen billing method.

You buy the game for $50 expecting to receive 30 days of game time in Vanguard with an option to buy more.

However, to actually play those 30 days you need a game card which costs $15. The actual price of the game becomes $65.

That breaks the Finnish Law.

Not true at all, you knew you needed a game card or credit card to play the game (note it did not say after 30 days to play the game), you did not have a credit card but expected to be able to play without a game card either. Where the line clearly says TO PLAY THE GAME you have to have a credit card/game card not "AFTER 30 DAYS to play the game you need those things"

[RedRider]

Well living in a small market which has tough laws, I can tell you what may happen. I live in Québec, Canada and we have some very tough language and consumer laws. A couple of years ago the governement went on a witch hunt and since they can't touch the game companies which are all in other countries, they went after the distributors.

2 years later the situation is this: The game distributors went out of business and there are very many games that are no longer sold in Québec. So we go on the net and send our money to other provinces or the US and we still get out products, but the province loses out on business, taxes, jobs.

I had to get EQ2: Echoes of Faydwer and Vanguard by digital download cause no boxes exist here. I don't know if things were started here by some smartaXXed laywer with nothing to do, but if it was I would like to know his name and let him know how happy we are......

[Tarantio]

Actually the Op is wrong, but if you want to be arsey (like him) you can try to take this to support him.

The amendment making combined offers legal requires some information to be given in connection with a combined offer. The following information shall be given in marketing:

1 description of the content of the offer (what kind of products or services are included; name/title of the commodity is enough)
2 description of other benefits included in the offer;
3 value of the offer; regular price of each product or service included, difference between the aggregate regular prices of the included products or services and the offered combined price, price of the product or service offered free of charge in connection with another product or service; (A link is provided of where to find information as to the price of the reccurant charges, as required due to Finnish marketing laws.)
4 the above price information is not obligatory if the value of the product or service in question is less than EUR 10,00;
5 how many commodities and worth which sum the consumer has to buy in order to get the benefit; (in this case presentation of a game card/credit card)
6 information on the conditions of the offer, especially the duration of the offer and any quantitative or other limitations. (Duration being 30 days)

All of the information required by finnish law is there. The fact that in order to recieve the 30 days you have to have either a credit card/game card is clearly advertised, as required in point 5. You, sir, are an armchair lawyer. That, or you are missing certain important points in law.

[Thergar]

Here is the statute as you posted:

As it was explained to me:

This is referring to products that are actually sold together or where buying one item gives you a reduced price on another.

Vanguard does not fall under the specific critieria involved because it does not include the subscription with the game. You are in essence buying two completely seperate products; the game, and then the subscription. They are not packaged or sold together. This frees Vanguard from having to meet those guidelines.
The box specifically says "includes a 30-day subscription to Vanguard." That is a bundle offer if I ever saw one. I received 30 days of game time which would have cost 13,49€ otherwise. Moreover, you are required to subscribe to Vanguard to be able to play.

Anyway, the Law requires accurate price information in the sale of all customer goods and services. (Decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§)


The box says clear as day that a credit card can be substituted with a game card. No problem there.

The fact that the "contract" is not legally binding is honestly no big deal because they don't rely on the contract. If they decide they do not want someone playing for whatever reason (breach of fake contract or not), they can deny access.
Granted, Sony has power to do whatever it wants with in-game content but it does not have the power to give false or misleading information to customers.

It does not have a right to attach one price tag to their product and then charge more. I expected to have a game for €45 I could play for 30 days. It turns out that I have to pay 58,49€ to play those 30 days, not to mention that the game is not playable "out of the box" as game cards are not available in my country.

That violates the standard principles of contract law.

[Jacosta]

Actually the Op is wrong, but if you want to be arsey (like him) you can try to take this to support him.

The amendment making combined offers legal requires some information to be given in connection with a combined offer. The following information shall be given in marketing:

1 description of the content of the offer (what kind of products or services are included; name/title of the commodity is enough)
2 description of other benefits included in the offer;
3 value of the offer; regular price of each product or service included, difference between the aggregate regular prices of the included products or services and the offered combined price, price of the product or service offered free of charge in connection with another product or service; (A link is provided of where to find information as to the price of the reccurant charges, as required due to Finnish marketing laws.)
4 the above price information is not obligatory if the value of the product or service in question is less than EUR 10,00;
5 how many commodities and worth which sum the consumer has to buy in order to get the benefit; (in this case presentation of a game card/credit card)
6 information on the conditions of the offer, especially the duration of the offer and any quantitative or other limitations. (Duration being 30 days)

All of the information required by finnish law is there. The fact that in order to recieve the 30 days you have to have either a credit card/game card is clearly advertised, as required in point 5. You, sir, are an armchair lawyer. That, or you are missing certain important points in law.

/buys Tarantio a beer

Well done.

[dancingbear]

From the very first page

1) you got the game and open an account.

2) while waiting for your game card to arrive, you open another account with a buddy pass.

So then you ended up with 2 seperate accounts and you're upset about it...

Well I seriously can't see this being SoE's fault. It's just lack of understanding on your own side. I suggestion? Just give up your account (2) which was free anyway and use your game card for account (1).

Won't blame you if you don't understand much about online accounts.... but it's already 2007 you know....

[Thergar]

All of the information required by finnish law is there. The fact that in order to recieve the 30 days you have to have either a credit card/game card is clearly advertised, as required in point 5. You, sir, are an armchair lawyer. That, or you are missing certain important points in law.
Could you say where in the box it says that to play 30 days of the game you must either:
1) Pay 13,49€ extra for a game card
or
2) Agree that SOE can bill your credit card account with specific amounts at regular intervals.

Nowhere. The box doesn't tell the consumer the real price of the product.

[Tarantio]

Could you say where in the box it says that to play 30 days of the game you must either:
1) Pay 13,49€ extra for a game card
or
2) Agree that SOE can bill your credit card account with specific amounts at regular intervals.

Nowhere. The box doesn't tell the consumer the real price of the product.

And yet, as required, it provides a place whereby a consumer can find the information out.In fact, it tells you that in order to redeem this offer you must visit another location. In terms of your argument, this is all part of the marketing. In order to recieve the free time, you must go to a website, in which you are told, and i quote "how many commodities and worth which sum the consumer has to buy in order to get the benefit".

You sir, are either a troll, or hideously uninformed.

[RedRider]

2) Agree that SOE can bill your credit card account with specific amounts at regular intervals.


You agree to set up a billing method which can be cancelled at any time, even BEFORE any new charges have been made to your credit card.

[Kasurot]

Could you say where in the box it says that to play 30 days of the game you must either:
1) Pay 13,49€ extra for a game card
or
2) Agree that SOE can bill your credit card account with specific amounts at regular intervals.

Nowhere. The box doesn't tell the consumer the real price of the product.

"30 day subscription included for new accounts only. (Excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable Internet fees. Installation and play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

Moron.

[Loampounder]

I remember, especially on OVF, a lot of rants of why the European customers were being treated like second class citizens due to the lack of pre-order, delays, etc. We suggest that there are non-trivial legal issues (distributors, compliance, etc.) but most of them shrug it off because everyone thinks that internet games are all simple. The fact of the matter is that these legal details must be looked into.

Frankly, the best option is just not to sell games in Finland. Certainly this is a case of a few spoiled gamers ruining the fun for others. I cannot imagine why people would rant about a game being sold in Finland and the details there in, but I guess some people like to whine.

The fact is that the information was there. The OP is obviously fluent and COULD understand that the back of the Vanguard game box. I would suspect that the OP was also an experienced gamer and KNOWS about the credit card/game card issue. The fact is that the OP had two clear options:

1) Read the back, know that it needs a credit card or game card, not see a price listed, and refuse to buy the game.
2) Notice that there was no exact subscription price listed and done some research for more information. Obviously he did not have to buy it then and there and has access to the internet.

It's obvious that the OP only wanted to complain.

PS - Isn't the language detail only for CE-marking, as in you cannot be CE marked if you do not have user information in Finnish?

[Thergar]

From the very first page

1) you got the game and open an account.

2) while waiting for your game card to arrive, you open another account with a buddy pass.

So then you ended up with 2 seperate accounts and you're upset about it...

Well I seriously can't see this being SoE's fault. It's just lack of understanding on your own side. I suggestion? Just give up your account (2) which was free anyway and use your game card for account (1).

Won't blame you if you don't understand much about online accounts.... but it's already 2007 you know....
OK, this is my final message to this thread. The legal perspective is useless to argue. Let's talk common sense.

Who benefits if players think that you can play 30 days first and decide then whether you want to buy a game card or not?
I asked about this in the customer service of my retailer and the representative (who told me that he had a lvl. 70 Warlock in WOW, BTW) said that it is entirely possible. The box is vague about this.


I have simply some suggestions to SoE:

1) Allow players play the first 30 days without game card or obligation to subscribe. Not because the EULA would require you to do so but because it would be a much more sensible way.

If that is not possible:

2) Players should be able to say when verifying their credit card: No thanks, I don't want to subscribe yet. And then choose to subscribe if they the game.

If nothing is changed:

3) Add the following information: A credit card or a game card are required to play. If you choose to use the credit card you agree to subscribe to the game and your bank account will be billed monthly ($xx,xx) or at intervals of your choosing (xx,xx/xmonths, etc.). Game cards of 30 days (sug. retail. $xx,xx) and 90 days ($xx,xx) can be bought at your local games vendor.

[Jacosta]

OK, this is my final message to this thread. The legal perspective is useless to argue. Let's talk common sense.

Who benefits if players think that you can play 30 days first and decide then whether you want to buy a game card or not?
I asked about this in the customer service of my retailer and the representative (who told me that he had a lvl. 70 Warlock in WOW, BTW) said that it is entirely possible. The box is vague about this.


I have simply some suggestions to SoE:

1) Allow players play the first 30 days without game card or obligation to subscribe. Not because the EULA would require you to do so but because it would be a much more sensible way.

If that is not possible:

2) Players should be able to say when verifying their credit card: No thanks, I don't want to subscribe yet. And then choose to subscribe if they the game.

If nothing is changed:

3) Add the following information: A credit card or a game card are required to play. If you choose to use the credit card you agree to subscribe to the game and your bank account will be billed monthly ($xx,xx) or at intervals of your choosing (xx,xx/xmonths, etc.). Game cards of 30 days (sug. retail. $xx,xx) and 90 days ($xx,xx) can be bought at your local games vendor.

No due to the legal problems of every country in the world and it would be a database nightmare.

[Loampounder]

I asked about this in the customer service of my retailer and the representative (who told me that he had a lvl. 70 Warlock in WOW, BTW) said that it is entirely possible. The box is vague about this.

The box CLEARLY says you need a credit card or game card. How much simplier can this get? Stop trying to overanalyze this thing and accept it. The box says "required to play". You obviously understand what that means. It does not "required to play after 30-day period" nor does it say "required to play if you want to continue".

The fact is that the OP made a lot of assumptions and lost. Game over.

[Kasurot]

OK, this is my final message to this thread. The legal perspective is useless to argue. Let's talk common sense.

Who benefits if players think that you can play 30 days first and decide then whether you want to buy a game card or not?
I asked about this in the customer service of my retailer and the representative (who told me that he had a lvl. 70 Warlock in WOW, BTW) said that it is entirely possible. The box is vague about this.

Great. You asked the guy behind the counter. Definately the person to go to for legal advice.

I have simply some suggestions to SoE:

1) Allow players play the first 30 days without game card or obligation to subscribe. Not because the EULA would require you to do so but because it would be a much more sensible way.

If that is not possible:

2) Players should be able to say when verifying their credit card: No thanks, I don't want to subscribe yet. And then choose to subscribe if they the game.
I actually agree with this. But this is more of a business issue. They're in business to make money and making money off people too lazy to click 'unsubscribe' is nothing new. Be glad they don't force you to call them to cancel.

If nothing is changed:

3) Add the following information: A credit card or a game card are required to play. If you choose to use the credit card you agree to subscribe to the game and your bank account will be billed monthly ($xx,xx) or at intervals of your choosing (xx,xx/xmonths, etc.). Game cards of 30 days (sug. retail. $xx,xx) and 90 days ($xx,xx) can be bought at your local games vendor.

What happens if prices change? Do they have to recall all products? Perhaps there's a reason why they forward you to a webpage. It does tell you that a credit card and subscripton are required.

[Loampounder]

3) Add the following information: A credit card or a game card are required to play. If you choose to use the credit card you agree to subscribe to the game and your bank account will be billed monthly ($xx,xx) or at intervals of your choosing (xx,xx/xmonths, etc.). Game cards of 30 days (sug. retail. $xx,xx) and 90 days ($xx,xx) can be bought at your local games vendor.

Do they have to put it in euros? Do they have to put discuss the VAT? Would Euro gamers rant if they use decimal points instead of the silly commas? Would they file suit of there are no game cards at the local game vendor?

All the OP is doing is to reword things to make him happier, not to solve the issues. There will be a segment of the population who complains, no matter what.

[Thergar]

And yet, as required, it provides a place whereby a consumer can find the information out.In fact, it tells you that in order to redeem this offer you must visit another location. In terms of your argument, this is all part of the marketing. In order to recieve the free time, you must go to a website, in which you are told, and i quote "how many commodities and worth which sum the consumer has to buy in order to get the benefit".

You sir, are either a troll, or hideously uninformed.
I am afraid that you are the one who is uninformed as you are not aware of relevant court prejudicates I have already quoted in this thread. (Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp)

Under US Law that kind of link to a website does not cause the content of that website to become a part of the contract.

http://gsulaw.gsu.edu/lawand/papers/su03/darden_thorpe/306%20F.3d%2017.html

[Loampounder]

OK, this is my final message to this thread...

etc.

OK, making false promises on an American-hosted websites violates American law!

[Thergar]

Great. You asked the guy behind the counter. Definately the person to go to for legal advice.
I didn't ask for legal advice. I asked: "Am I able to play this game for 30 days without buying a game card."
He responded: "Yes you can" and proceeded to tell me about his lvl. 70 'lock. A typical WoW guy, I guess.


What happens if prices change? Do they have to recall all products? Perhaps there's a reason why they forward you to a webpage. It does tell you that a credit card and subscripton are required.
They can supply the store with shelves and posters to inform consumers of the price. Presently, it is possible that the store clerk does not even know the price.

[Thergar]

OK, making false promises on an American-hosted websites violates American law!
I became angry when I am called a moron when I am only trying to help the community. :yell:

[Loampounder]

I didn't ask for legal advice. I asked: "Am I able to play this game for 30 days without buying a game card."
He responded: "Yes you can" and proceeded to tell me about his lvl. 70 'lock. A typical WoW guy, I guess.

SOE printed the box correctly. Perhaps you could sue the store clerk for being wrong? Or perhaps sue yourself for asking the store clerk rather than reading the box?

[Loampounder]

I became angry when I am called a moron when I am only trying to help the community. :yell:

1) Calling you a moron is wrong.

2) No, not helping the community at all.

[Kasurot]

I didn't ask for legal advice. I asked: "Am I able to play this game for 30 days without buying a game card."
He responded: "Yes you can" and proceeded to tell me about his lvl. 70 'lock. A typical WoW guy, I guess.


They can supply the store with shelves and posters to inform consumers of the price. Presently, it is possible that the store clerk does not even know the price.

It is not the store clerks responsibility to know the price (thought it could help him keep his job :p). Nor is it the distributor's to state the subscription price on a box that could have manufactured at any date. What if you bought the game from a friend/coworker and the box had an old price?

Telling you that a subscription is required and where to get current pricing info on said subscription is far better than giving you outdated incorrect info.

[Jacosta]

I am afraid that you are the one who is uninformed as you are not aware of relevant court prejudicates I have already quoted in this thread. (Specht v. Netscape Communications Corp)

Under US Law that kind of link to a website does not cause the content of that website to become a part of the contract.

http://gsulaw.gsu.edu/lawand/papers/su03/darden_thorpe/306%20F.3d%2017.html

You might want to pick a case that actually backs your position. The court said this regarding online transactions.

FN17. Although the parties here do not refer to it, California's consumer fraud statute, Cal. Bus. & Prof.Code § 17538 , is one of the few state statutes to regulate online transactions in goods or services. The statute provides that in disclosing information regarding return and refund policies and other vital consumer information, online vendors must legibly display the information either:

(i) [on] the first screen displayed when the vendor's electronic site is accessed, (ii) on the screen on which goods or services are first offered, (iii) on the screen on which a buyer may place the order for goods or services, (iv) on the screen on which the buyer may enter payment information, such as a credit card account number, or (v) for nonbrowser- based technologies, in a manner that gives the user a reasonable opportunity to review that information.

Id. § 17538(d)(2)(A) . The statute's clear purpose is to ensure that consumers engaging in online transactions have relevant information before they can be bound. Although consumer fraud as such is not alleged in the present action, and § 17538 protects only California residents, we note that the statute is consistent with the principle of conspicuous notice of the existence of contract terms that is also found in California's common law of contracts.

Sony adheres to California's online regulation and the prices are clearly marked before you purchase a subscription. The subscription is a completely different product and the disclaimer on the box of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes clearly states to go to www.joinvanguard.com.

[Kasurot]

I became angry when I am called a moron when I am only trying to help the community. :yell:

I don't see anyone in the community exactly appreciating your help. Maybe you should help the community by letting it slide.

[shadowkai]

OP: Give me a break. Is this your first MMO?

Feel free to sue SOE, and let us know how much the legal fees are when you lose.

[Thergar]

The box CLEARLY says you need a credit card or game card. How much simplier can this get? Stop trying to overanalyze this thing and accept it. The box says "required to play". You obviously understand what that means. It does not "required to play after 30-day period" nor does it say "required to play if you want to continue".

The fact is that the OP made a lot of assumptions and lost. Game over.
Why did you make an assumption that my box says anything about game cards? In fact, it does not even mention their existence. What about your box?

Of course, I knew about the game cards and thus the information "credit card required to play" was at least partly incorrect to my knowledge. You are able to play without credit card, after all.

The guy who sold me the game told that I can play 30 days free and then I have to buy game cards.

The fact is that the box is vague on the subject and the information needs to improved. I just want to bring this to SOE's attention.

[Jacosta]

Why did you make an assumption that my box says anything about game cards? In fact, it does not even mention their existence. What about your box?

Of course, I knew about the game cards and thus the information "credit card required to play" was at least partly incorrect to my knowledge. You are able to play without credit card, after all.

The guy who sold me the game told that I can play 30 days free and then I have to buy game cards.

The fact is that the box is vague on the subject and the information needs to improved. I just want to bring this to SOE's attention.

You haven't provided proof of what your box says with an actual scan of the box.

[Eis]

Oh for Gawd's sake...

[Jacosta]

I didn't ask for legal advice. I asked: "Am I able to play this game for 30 days without buying a game card."
He responded: "Yes you can" and proceeded to tell me about his lvl. 70 'lock. A typical WoW guy, I guess.


They can supply the store with shelves and posters to inform consumers of the price. Presently, it is possible that the store clerk does not even know the price.

The store clerk was right since you can play without using a game card. You just need to put in your credit card information when signing up for a subscription.

[Loampounder]

I bought the collector's edition and since threw away the wrapping, so I don't know what it said about the price. Jac mentioned what was on his box. If your box said "credit card required to play" then perhaps you should stop ranting, and it proves you are groundless.

So, when are you going to upload a scan of that box?

So the store clerk was wrong. It's not SOE's problem.

[Jacosta]

I bought the collector's edition and since threw away the wrapping, so I don't know what it said about the price. Jac mentioned what was on his box. If your box said "credit card required to play" then perhaps you should stop ranting, and it proves you are groundless.

So, when are you going to upload a scan of that box?

So the store clerk was wrong. It's not SOE's problem.

The clerk wasn't wrong since the OP never asked specifically about if a credit card and game card was required. The OP only asked if a game card was required and the clerk said no which was an honest answer.

[Chae668]

Um?

There are no age restrictions in my country to purchase video game products. Since the gamecard is simply a series of numbers that is logged in a DB of "true" cards it has no identifying information attached to it... I'll stop here however since this is a moot point, and has nothing to do with the OP.

but the US does have an age restriction. and because it is a US created game, the identidy is required.

[Thergar]

You might want to pick a case that actually backs your position. The court said this regarding online transactions.

Sony adheres to California's online regulation and the prices are clearly marked before you purchase a subscription. The subscription is a completely different product and the disclaimer on the box of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes clearly states to go to www.joinvanguard.com.
In the case of an online transaction you can make an argument that the information that was contained in the link became a part of the contract without getting laughed off the courtroom but in the case of a product in the shelf of a store that would be hopeless.

This case is about a standard form contract the consumers typically do not have access at the time of their purchase.

It is certainly outside the reasonable exceptations of people to be forced to pay $15 extra to be able to play the game or to be forced to subscribe to the game.

The license contract thus violates the Uniform Commercial Code in the US.

[Thergar]

The clerk wasn't wrong since the OP never asked specifically about if a credit card and game card was required. The OP only asked if a game card was required and the clerk said no which was an honest answer.
I precisely told him that I do not have a credit card at the moment and asked him whether I am able to play the game for 30 days without a game card.

[kab]

So, once again:
a)You're the very first person to EVER discover this horrible breach of the law.
b)The law hasn't, in fact, been breached.

Which do you think is more likely?

How about:

c) The law has been breached and hasn't been enforced in these cases.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. This sort of thing produces thousands of class action lawsuits. In the end all it does is result in companies being less willing to take risks and forcing us to jump through more hoops. Ultimately the costs fall on us, the aggravation falls on us and the lawyers get rich. It happens all the time in the US, I'd bet it happens in the EU too.

[Loampounder]

The clerk wasn't wrong since the OP never asked specifically about if a credit card and game card was required. The OP only asked if a game card was required and the clerk said no which was an honest answer.

That's just splitting hairs. The fact is that the account requires a form of payment to start (not charge). The clerk was wrong because (despite the splitting hairs between requiring a game card or needing a credit card) something is needed to set-up the account.

This case is about a standard form contract the consumers typically do not have access at the time of their purchase.

It is certainly outside the reasonable exceptations of people to be forced to pay $15 extra to be able to play the game or to be forced to subscribe to the game.

The license contract thus violates the Uniform Commercial Code in the US.

The customer is not forced to purchase the game right then and there. The customer certainly can get access to the information. Also, the box certainly warns about the details of the contract. Caveat Emptor.

Reasonable expectations to be forced to pay $15? No one is forced. SOE is up front that says a credit card is required to play, as well as game specs and internet access. Since the box explicitly states that additional costs are required to play, it's the exact opposote of reasonable expectation.

[Jacosta]

In the case of an online transaction you can make an argument that the information that was contained in the link became a part of the contract without getting laughed off the courtroom but in the case of a product in the shelf of a store that would be hopeless.

This case is about a standard form contract the consumers typically do not have access at the time of their purchase.

It is certainly outside the reasonable exceptations of people to be forced to pay $15 extra to be able to play the game or to be forced to subscribe to the game.

The license contract thus violates the Uniform Commercial Code in the US.

Actually it doesn't violate the UCC and the UCC isn't even law. The UCC are regulations on business and cannot be used in a court of law. Also the consumer knows about the EULA and the TOS in the disclaimer on the box. The box is quite clear that you need three things in order to play the game. The first is that you need a subscription with Vanguard and said subscription needs to be set up at www.joinvanguard.com. Secondly, you either need a credit card or a game card to play. Thirdly, it states that other fees may apply resulting from the subscription.

It also states that you can read the Terms of Service and the EULA at www.joinvanguard.com. If I was a lawyer and you came to see me about this I would laugh in your face and tell you to complete second grade reading.

[Loampounder]

I precisely told him that I do not have a credit card at the moment and asked him whether I am able to play the game for 30 days without a game card.

Which further proves that you relied upon an incorrect answer, despite what SOE's printed material says. He's a store clerk, which sort if explains his reliability level.

PS - yes, that last statement basically means that if I knew anything I would not be here.

[Jacosta]

I precisely told him that I do not have a credit card at the moment and asked him whether I am able to play the game for 30 days without a game card.

And the sales clerk is wrong since he isn't a lawyer nor is he a distributer. All around this is all on you for failing to read the box. It states you are REQUIRED to have a subscription and to get that subscription you are REQUIRED to have a credit card or a game card. This falls entirely on your shoulders, so own up to your mistake.

[AsheMan]

I precisely told him that I do not have a credit card at the moment and asked him whether I am able to play the game for 30 days without a game card.

Am I the only one who finds the humor in this armchair lawyer not having a credit card? :)

[Loampounder]

It also states that you can read the Terms of Service and the EULA at www.joinvanguard.com. If I was a lawyer and you came to see me about this I would laugh in your face and tell you to complete second grade reading.

I'm not sure of a lawyer would be as rude, but he would certain ask that, if he knew about the TOS and EULA at the website AND he had questions, why he did not refer to those when he was able.

There is a buzz saw with a giant red label warning about danger and refering to the manual. He saw the red label, shrugged because he did not have the manual with him, and proceeded to stick his hand into the buzzsaw...

[Thergar]

You haven't provided proof of what your box says with an actual scan of the box.
Give me a break. Everyone here has access to his own box.

Have I said something untrue of the box? You are just trying to waste my time although you are not even disputing anything.

[Jacosta]

Give me a break. Everyone here has access to his own box.

Have I said something untrue of the box? You are just trying to waste my time although you are not even disputing anything.

You made a lot of claims about what the box doesn't say. I'm from Missouri and around these parts we have a saying, SHOW ME. So show me your proof. Also the European box is different from the US box.

[kab]

Give me a break. Everyone here has access to his own box.

Have I said something untrue of the box? You are just trying to waste my time although you are not even disputing anything.

I don't know because I haven't seen your box. Mine says a valid credit card or SOE game card is required. You claim yours doesn't, so prove it.

[Loampounder]

I'm from Missouri and around these parts we have a saying, SHOW ME.

Just a saying, nothing official or anything... oh, nevermind.

:)

[Jacosta]

Just a saying, nothing official or anything... oh, nevermind.

:)

It's the state motto so it's official. :D

[Thergar]

And the sales clerk is wrong since he isn't a lawyer nor is he a distributer.
Of course he was wrong. Have I said otherwise?


All around this is all on you for failing to read the box. It states you are REQUIRED to have a subscription
Where? Name the exact place and quote the text.

You are able to play the game without subscription, with buddy keys.

and to get that subscription you are REQUIRED to have a credit card
The box does say: "A valid credit card required."


or a game card.
The box doesn't say anything of game cards.


This falls entirely on your shoulders, so own up to your mistake.
What mistake? Playing the game with game cards? This isn't about me.

[Jacosta]

Of course he was wrong. Have I said otherwise?


Where? Name the exact place and quote the text.

You are able to play the game without subscription, with buddy keys.

The box does say: "A valid credit card required."


The box doesn't say anything of game cards.


What mistake? Playing the game with game cards? This isn't about me.

Prove to us that your box doesn't say you need a SOE Game Card.

[Chae668]

Why did you make an assumption that my box says anything about game cards? In fact, it does not even mention their existence. What about your box?

Of course, I knew about the game cards and thus the information "credit card required to play" was at least partly incorrect to my knowledge. You are able to play without credit card, after all.

The guy who sold me the game told that I can play 30 days free and then I have to buy game cards.

The fact is that the box is vague on the subject and the information needs to improved. I just want to bring this to SOE's attention.

you were asked 3 times to scan your box and post said pics. i have yet to see you do this. so, your word against everyone about what your box says. scan the damn thing.

[Loampounder]

It's the state motto so it's official. :D
Yeah, I know. Just a joke.
Where? Name the exact place and quote the text.


Give me a break. Everyone here has access to his own box.

[Thergar]

I don't know because I haven't seen your box. Mine says a valid credit card or SOE game card is required. You claim yours doesn't, so prove it.
Do you have the US version or the European version? What is the exact place of that information in your box?

[Hanabi Omoide]

Back of the box says in the fine print, "*30 day subscription included for new accounts only (excludes existing Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A valid credit card or SOE Game Card required. Internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Installation and Play subject to Vanguard: Saga of Heroes User Agreement and Software License available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside."

Does the back of the box really say this? If so, why did the thread go past the first page?

[Loampounder]

Prove to us that your box doesn't say you need a SOE Game Card.

In terms of the discussion, this is not necessary. The fact is that the OP admitted that the box states he needs a credit card. He does not have one yet he bought the game anyway. Frankly, he should feel happy that there is a loophole he could apply to make good on his purchase of the game, even if SOE did not print this loophole on the box. He should be happy he can buy a game card to make use of this $50 purchase (which he admitted to knowing he did not meet the requirements).

[Devyn]

Does the back of the box really say this? If so, why did the thread go past the first page?Yes, the box actually says it. I looked to be sure lol. It is on the outside of the sleeve, towards the bottom right. On my box it is incased in a yellow letterbox just above the UPC barcode.

**Edit** Oh, I have the US version.

[Loampounder]

Does the back of the box really say this? If so, why did the thread go past the first page?

Boredom, cries for attention, and for the love of postcount.

[Jacosta]

In terms of the discussion, this is not necessary. The fact is that the OP admitted that the box states he needs a credit card. He does not have one yet he bought the game anyway. Frankly, he should feel happy that there is a loophole he could apply to make good on his purchase of the game, even if SOE did not print this loophole on the box. He should be happy he can buy a game card to make use of this $50 purchase (which he admitted to knowing he did not meet the requirements).

Actually it does matter as the US version clearly states you need either a credit card or the SOE game card. The burden of proof rests upon him to back his position up with a scan of his box.

[Chae668]

The box does say: "A valid credit card required."


ok, your argument is now done with. you have just contradicted EVERYTHING you were arguing. thank you for proving ALL of our points.

[Chae668]

Do you have the US version or the European version? What is the exact place of that information in your box?

show us YOUR box. then we can compare. dont turn it around. you claim YOUR box is different. show us.

[Loampounder]

Actually it does matter as the US version clearly states you need either a credit card or the SOE game card. The burden of proof rests upon him to back his position up with a scan of his box.

But his case is all ready busted as it is. If the box says "Giving a offspring to SOE to continue playing this game" AND the OP purchases the game, he has no excuse. Worst, if his box does not mention the game card AND he relies on the store clerk's idea of a game card, then the whole rant makes less sense, as he went against the box to believe the clerk.

[Thergar]

Actually it does matter as the US version clearly states you need either a credit card or the SOE game card. The burden of proof rests upon him to back his position up with a scan of his box.
What burden of proof? I don't have anything to prove for you. People that matter (they don't include you) know that I am right anyway.

[Jacosta]

What burden of proof? I don't have anything to prove for you. People that matter (they don't include you) know that I am right anyway.

Funny but you've been proven wrong by everyone in this thread by posting up what their game box says. So either pony up or shut the **** up.

[Loampounder]

What burden of proof? I don't have anything to prove for you. People that matter (they don't include you) know that I am right anyway.

If you want your rant to have even the single ounce of validity...

[Jacosta]

But his case is all ready busted as it is. If the box says "Giving a offspring to SOE to continue playing this game" AND the OP purchases the game, he has no excuse. Worst, if his box does not mention the game card AND he relies on the store clerk's idea of a game card, then the whole rant makes less sense, as he went against the box to believe the clerk.

Good point and any judge would laugh him out of the courtroom.

[Thergar]

But his case is all ready busted as it is. If the box says "Giving a offspring to SOE to continue playing this game" AND the OP purchases the game, he has no excuse. Worst, if his box does not mention the game card AND he relies on the store clerk's idea of a game card, then the whole rant makes less sense, as he went against the box to believe the clerk.
Of course I knew of the existence of SOE game cards before I purchased the game. I knew that the information in the box was false before I bought the game. I am simply pointing out to SOE that there is an error in the box.

[Chae668]

What burden of proof? I don't have anything to prove for you. People that matter (they don't include you) know that I am right anyway.

do you not notice the green writing? a few posts ago you stated that the game box does say credit card required. why are you still arguing? you just killed your argument by admitting you were wrong to begin with.

[Jacosta]

I'm a coward to post up a scan of what my box says so I'm gonna talk out my ass like I know something.

I hope you like my Finnish to English translation.

[Chae668]

Of course I knew of the existence of SOE game cards before I purchased the game. I knew that the information in the box was false before I bought the game. I am simply pointing out to SOE that there is an error in the box.

an error in your standards is not an error on the box. because you misread EVERYTHING on that box is your error. seems you are turning your own argument around to everything you were arguing before. now you admitted that you knew everything before hand.

what is your point now?

[Loampounder]

Of course I knew of the existence of SOE game cards before I purchased the game. I knew that the information in the box was false before I bought the game. I am simply pointing out to SOE that there is an error in the box.

So you are saying that you relied upon your own information? Are you going to rant that Thergar is wrong?

SOE could have been more specific by expanding the words (but Jac says that game cards are mentioned on his box, so perhaps you should post a scan of the back of your box) but it does not mean that SOE is "wrong" in the spirit of your rant. You did not rant about SOE not taking game cards but about the requirement of present a form of payment before playing. SOE is still correct in that they require that form of payment defined in registration.

[Thergar]

Funny but you've been proven wrong by everyone in this thread by posting up what their game box says. So either pony up or shut the **** up.
Do you happen to own the Euro version of Vanguard? You have made an ass of yourself.

This is what the US edition looks like:
http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000JLMZS0.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

This is what my box looks like:
http://www.peliarkku.fi/catalog/infoimg/PCVANG.jpg

[Devyn]

Do you happen to own the Euro version of Vanguard? You have made an ass of yourself.

This is what my box looks like:Cool, now post the back please.

**Edit: Removed pictures from quote**

[Chae668]

Do you happen to own the Euro version of Vanguard? You have made an ass of yourself.

This is what my box looks like:


except for the T for teen and the 12+ the box and its sub notes are exactly the same. seems you have made an ass of yourself. besides, we didnt ask for the front. we SPECIFICALLY asked for the back. which you also seem to not read correctly.

edited for picture content as well.

[Loampounder]

"Additional reoccuring subscription fees required".

Does "required" mean something in Finnish we don't know?

[Thergar]

So you are saying that you relied upon your own information? Are you going to rant that Thergar is wrong?
You know, that is irrelevant. I don't feel wronged. My experience with the game itself wasn't harmed. I haven't lost a single cent because of SOE's policies.

I am discussing the issue while a group of Americans is befuddled when their edition of the box is different than mine.


SOE could have been more specific by expanding the words (but Jac says that game cards are mentioned on his box, so perhaps you should post a scan of the back of your box) but it does not mean that SOE is "wrong" in the spirit of your rant. You did not rant about SOE not taking game cards but about the requirement of present a form of payment before playing. SOE is still correct in that they require that form of payment defined in registration.
Correct? That is simply SOE's current policy. I suggested that it should be changed. I also suggested improvements to the game box.

[Chae668]

I am discussing the issue while a group of Americans is befuddled when their edition of the box is different than mine.


besides some of the graphics on the boxes, they are EXACTLY the same. why does noone see the green of my threads? he still seems to pick and choose his arguments. not read the fact that he is still loosing a battle.

seems you are a bit confused.

[Thergar]

Cool, now post the back please.
I couldn't find any pictures of the back side of the game box. If you have time to search for them, please do so. However, I have written in exact words what it says in the back of my game box. Do I need to repeat myself?

[Jacosta]

Look ma I can cut and paste images and not even do scans!

Except you didn't scan your box and instead linked the one that is on Amazon.uk. Now I want to see the back of the box since that is where the disclaimer resides and I want it to be your scan not a cut and paste from a webpage. Let me guess socialism makes you lazy right? I also hope you liked my Finnish to English translation.

[Thergar]

Actually the recommendation for Vanguard is Teen which means 13+.
I also hope you liked my Jacosta to English translation.
I don't own a scanner. Do your own research. Everyone who has the Euro version of Vanguard knows that I am right. Because you don't debate constructively I'm done with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Eis]

If it'll help end this utterly ridiculous fiasco, here are pictures of the back of my European box...

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8420/vgbox1jr5.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7971/vgbox2xy9.jpg

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7115/vgbox3hn4.jpg

[Jacosta]

I don't own a scanner. Do your own research. Everyone who has the Euro version of Vanguard knows that I am right. Because you don't debate constructively I'm done with you. Welcome to my ignore list.

Why should I have to research your statements? I shouldn't as you should have had them ready to go when asked for proof. Don't own a scanner that's your problem not mine. Good I'm glad you ignored me because it just means I can make fun of your stupidity in peace. Oh I'm pretty sure that several European players posted in this thread and never stepped up to your side of the argument. Quite telling if you ask me.

[Thergar]

"Additional reoccuring subscription fees required".
The word is recurring, not reoccuring.

[Jacosta]

If it'll help end this utterly ridiculous fiasco, here are pictures of the back of my European box...
*snipped pictures*

Thank you Eis and it still proves that the OP doesn't know what he's talking about. The disclaimer quite clearly says a credit card is required.

[Thergar]

If it'll help end this utterly ridiculous fiasco, here are pictures of the back of my European box...
:) :) :D :p

A lot of thanks to you, friend. That will settle this. Shame on you Americans for calling me a liar.

Would some moderator be kind and lock this thread?

[Isobel]

The word is recurring, not reoccuring.

Attacking someone's spelling is generally the last action of someone who can't defend their argument.

[kab]

Thank you Eis and it still proves that the OP doesn't know what he's talking about. The disclaimer quite clearly says a credit card is required.

Yes but he's complaining because the fact that he could bypass that by buying a game card from a different country somehow violates the law. You don't have to pay anything to get your "free" thirty days, all you need is a valid credit card just like the friggin' box says.

[Jacosta]

:) :) :D :p

A lot of thanks to you, friend. That will settle this. Shame on you Americans for calling me a liar.

Would some moderator be kind and lock this thread?

I guess you're blind then since his scans prove that you need a credit card to play. Also mods here rarely lock threads, instead they move them to the volcano if it gets too out of hand.

[kab]

:) :) :D :p

A lot of thanks to you, friend. That will settle this. Shame on you Americans for calling me a liar.

Would some moderator be kind and lock this thread?

I don't recall calling you a liar, I recall asking for evidence. What you've shown us is that the box proves you wrong: it stated a credit card was required. You don't have one. You chose to buy it anyway. How is this breaking the law exactly?

[AsheMan]

OP: 0
Everyone Else on SilkyVenom: 1

[Isobel]

I bought this game with an assumption that I could try this game freely during those 30 days of free playtime and I was surprised when the game asked for my credit card information.

As I don't have a credit card and no SOE game cards are imported to my country I decided to purchase a game card from a foreign country and I asked the shop to send the key to my E-mail. However, my bank requires 3-4 days to transfer my money.

Meanwhile, I tried my buddy key which to my surprise worked fine. Sadly, I had already entered my CD key to another account which means to my knowledge that I will not be able to continue playing with that other account.

SOE violates the Consumer protection Law of Finland and the laws of most other European countries with their marketing policy.

Specifically,

SOE does not inform the consumer of the price of subscription with the game package.

Also, SOE violates decree 30.12.1999/1359, sections 10§ and 11§. Moreover, the use of word "free" in consumer advertising is banned in Finland if the product is not truly given to the customer free of any charges whatsoever. However, I have seen reports of SOE representatives using the term. (For example: http://tinyurl.com/34y8bd )

:) :) :D :p

A lot of thanks to you, friend. That will settle this. Shame on you Americans for calling me a liar.

Would some moderator be kind and lock this thread?

Asking that the thread be locked isn't going to change the fact that the information was clear on the box. Within your first post you complained that you weren't informed you'd need a credit card to get your 30 days. The scan proves you were informed.

[Jacosta]

Yes but he's complaining because the fact that he could bypass that by buying a game card from a different country somehow violates the law. You don't have to pay anything to get your "free" thirty days, all you need is a valid credit card just like the friggin' box says.

Which means he broke Finnish law not SOE. rofl

[Thergar]

Asking that the thread be locked isn't going to change the fact that the information was clear on the box. Within your first post you complained that you weren't informed you'd need a credit card to get your 30 days. The scan proves you were informed.
I was never discussing SOE's responsibility vis-a-vis a somewhat more informed customer (Thergar). This was all about the uninformed masses.

[Isobel]

I was never discussing SOE's responsibility vis-a-vis a somewhat more informed customer (Thergar). This was all about the uninformed masses.

Do the masses get a different box than you did?

[Thergar]

I don't recall calling you a liar, I recall asking for evidence. What you've shown us is that the box proves you wrong: it stated a credit card was required. You don't have one. You chose to buy it anyway. How is this breaking the law exactly?
We are dealing with a case of unbelievable information. SOE informed me in the EULA that Game Cards can be used to play this game and I knew that was true. Nothing was said of the 30 day offer.

Why should the wrong information of credit cards be in the game box?

[Thergar]

Do the masses get a different box than you did?
No but those boxes lead people to think that they are not able to play the game without a credit card. That leads to a loss of subscriptions as people without credit cards are not going to buy the game.

Is that what SOE wants?

[Jacosta]

No but those boxes lead people to think that they are not able to play the game without a credit card. That leads to a loss of subscriptions as people without credit cards are not going to buy the game.

Is that what SOE wants?

They're told that they need a credit card to set up a subscription.

[Isobel]

No but those boxes lead people to think that they are not able to play the game without a credit card. That leads to a loss of subscriptions as people without credit cards are not going to buy the game.

Is that what SOE wants?

Holy 180 Batman! Actually, It doesn't lead people to believe that. It's quite clearly leads people to believe that in order to take advantage of the 30 days free they need to have an internet connection, and a valid credit card. As game cards aren't avalible in many European countries without ordering off of the internet, that's a vlaid statement. Either way. Sigil and SOE aren't breaking the law, which was your first assertion.

[Jacosta]

Holy 180 Batman! Actually, It doesn't lead people to believe that. It's quite clearly leads people to believe that in order to take advantage of the 30 days free they need to have an internet connection, and a valid credit card. As game cards aren't avalible in many European countries without ordering off of the internet, that's a vlaid statement. Either way. Sigil and SOE aren't breaking the law, which was your first assertion.

Now he's just trolling Isobel.

[Thergar]

They're told that they need a credit card to set up a subscription.
They should also be told that game cards can be used to pay for their time in the game.

That information is in the US box but it is not in the Euro box.

[Thergar]

Holy 180 Batman! Actually, It doesn't lead people to believe that. It's quite clearly leads people to believe that in order to take advantage of the 30 days free they need to have an internet connection, and a valid credit card. As game cards aren't avalible in many European countries without ordering off of the internet, that's a vlaid statement. Either way. Sigil and SOE aren't breaking the law, which was your first assertion.
Could you tell me what is the benefit of omitting information of the game cards in Euro boxes?

I have already explained what the Finnish Law says of this issue. Address the dozens of law-related posts I have made to this thread if you want to examine that side of things. However, you know nothing of the Finnish Law.

[RedRider]

Could you tell me what is the benefit of omitting information of the game cards in Euro boxes?

I have already explained what the Finnish Law says of this issue. Address the dozens of law-related posts I have made to this thread if you want to examine that side of things. However, you know nothing of the Finnish Law.


Since game cards are not available in all Euro countries, they omit mentionning it, to protect themselves from amature laywers who would start a thread complaining that their box contained false information. Plus the individual country markets are not big enough to warrent their own boxes.

You lost your original argument long ago, since you did not know about the credit card mentioned on the box, did you even buy the game ?

(OMG, I am agreeing with Jacosta and Isobel !!!)

[Isobel]

Since game cards are not available in all Euro countries, they omit mentionning it, to protect themselves from amature laywers who would start a thread complaining that their box contained false information. Plus the individual country markets are not big enough to warrent their own boxes.

You lost your original argument long ago, since you did not know about the credit card mentioned on the box, did you even buy the game ?

(OMG, I am agreeing with Jacosta and Isobel !!!)

Welcome to the dark side!

[Eis]

Echoing Redrider (and the rest of the board for that matter), Game Cards are not available in certain territories Thergar.

The situation is plain as day, black and white.

The box says you need a credit card to subscribe and gain your free 30 days. You can dispute this all you like but you will never be correct because the fact is staring you in the face on the back of your box.

From the EULA in the European booklet...

"If we make a Game Card available and you use a Game Card to pay for your Account, the Game Card shall activate your account for the period stated on the Game Card..."

Notice the if. It is the most important word there and you seem to have skipped over it in you intepretation of the EULA agreement; it only offers the option of Game Cards if they become available. They are not available in your territory (nor mine for that matter) and the box does in not mislead you to believe they are either, nor does it mislead you into believing you can use them.

You don't have an argument. Please drop this as it is doing you absolutely no favours. Your zealous pursuit of some kind of victory has shattered any credibility you started off with. No one here is ever going to agree with you because you are infact worng. Admit this to yourself and you'll be more victorious that you ever will be continuing this utterly baffling ego-fueled crusade.

Wounded pride is a terrible thing.

[Thergar]

Since game cards are not available in all Euro countries, they omit mentionning it, to protect themselves from amature laywers who would start a thread complaining that their box contained false information. Plus the individual country markets are not big enough to warrent their own boxes.

You lost your original argument long ago, since you did not know about the credit card mentioned on the box, did you even buy the game ?
Apparently you have understood nothing of what you have read. I always knew that I could use game cards or a credit card to play the game.

I only say that: 1) It shouldn't cost $15 more with game cards, 2) You shouldn't be forced to subscribe to the game if you decide to use a credit card.

[DCpunk]

It does say additional subscription fees required on the front of the box. And the 30 days are 'included'. The box doesn't say free. A dev posting on a message board wouldn't hold up in court.

I can't speak for the back of the box since I did digital distro but I'm fairly certain all SOE games have the note on the back of the box "credit card required to play".

I could be wrong on the second point.


You're right. Clearly in yellow in the bottom right of the back of the box (right above the UPC code) is the following paragraph:

*30 day subscription included for new accounts only (Excludes existing Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes and Station Access accounts). A Valid credit card or SOE game card required, internet connection required. Additional subscription fees apply. Players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Installation and play subject to Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes user agreement and software license available at www.joinvanguard.com and inside.

It's black text on a yellow background, all in capitals. It's direcly under the box that tells you that it includes a 30-day subscription to the game.


Seriously though. Read crap before you post it. As soon as I saw the thread title I said to myself "Oh man, not another Eurpean player griping about something else..." *eyeroll*

[AsheMan]

This thread delivers. Silky should create a Hall of Shame and sticky this one. I almost feel sorry for Thergar. He just keeps digging himself deeper.

[Thergar]

Echoing Redrider (and the rest of the board for that matter), Game Cards are not available in certain territories Thergar.

The situation is plain as day, black and white.
You are misrepresenting me.


The box says you need a credit card to subscribe and gain your free 30 days. You can dispute this all you like but you will never be correct because the fact is staring you in the face on the back of your box.

From the EULA in the European booklet...

"If we make a Game Card available and you use a Game Card to pay for your Account, the Game Card shall activate your account for the period stated on the Game Card..."

Notice the if. It is the most important word there and you seem to have skipped over it in you intepretation of the EULA agreement; it only offers the option of Game Cards if they become available. They are not available in your territory (nor mine for that matter) and the box does in not mislead you to believe they are either, nor does it mislead you into believing you can use them.
In fact, I just bought a Game card from http://www.mmorg-shop.com/

It wasn't expensive.


You don't have an argument. Please drop this as it is doing you absolutely no favours. Your zealous pursuit of some kind of victory has shattered any credibility you started off with. No one here is ever going to agree with you because you are infact worng. Admit this to yourself and you'll be more victorious that you ever will be continuing this utterly baffling ego-fueled crusade.

Wounded pride is a terrible thing.
Wrong on what issue? All the time I have defended these three simple proposals:

1) Allow players play the first 30 days without game card or obligation to subscribe. Not because the EULA would require you to do so but because it would be a much more sensible way.

If that is not possible:

2) Players should be able to say when verifying their credit card: No thanks, I don't want to subscribe yet. And then choose to subscribe if they the game.

If nothing is changed:

3) Add the following information: A credit card or a game card are required to play. If you choose to use the credit card you agree to subscribe to the game and your bank account will be billed monthly ($xx,xx) or at intervals of your choosing (xx,xx/xmonths, etc.). Game cards of 30 days (sug. retail. $xx,xx) and 90 days ($xx,xx) can be bought at your local games vendor.


Which is the one you disagree with?

[RedRider]

This thread delivers. Silky should create a Hall of Shame and sticky this one. I almost feel sorry for Thergar. He just keeps digging himself deeper.


Yep, its not that I think Sigil/SOE are perfect, far from it. In the link the original poster gives us is a real problem, when you use a 10 day trial and then buy the game, you lose your 30 days free. Talk about a way to enrage and lose clients, at worse they should get the remaining 20 days. Now that is a valid problem and very dumb of Sigil/SOE ...

[Isobel]

Apparently you have understood nothing of what you have read. I always knew that I could use game cards or a credit card to play the game.

I only say that: 1) It shouldn't cost $15 more with game cards, 2) You shouldn't be forced to subscribe to the game if you decide to use a credit card.

You're still subscribing if you use a game card. You're just using the card for your subscription.

[Jacosta]

They should also be told that game cards can be used to pay for their time in the game.

That information is in the US box but it is not in the Euro box.

Gee I don't know... maybe because game cards aren't available in all European countries. :rolleyes:

[Jacosta]

Since game cards are not available in all Euro countries, they omit mentionning it, to protect themselves from amature laywers who would start a thread complaining that their box contained false information. Plus the individual country markets are not big enough to warrent their own boxes.

You lost your original argument long ago, since you did not know about the credit card mentioned on the box, did you even buy the game ?

(OMG, I am agreeing with Jacosta and Isobel !!!)

Did hell just freeze over? :eek:

[Tarantio]

You do realise of course that even if you provide your credit card there is absolutely no obligation to actually pay the subscription? All that is required is that you provide details in order to create an account. Immediately after this, if you cancel the subscription, you will not be billed, and will still get the 30 days free.

Your argument is bouncing around like an easter bunny, lawyer boy.

[Thergar]

You do realise of course that even if you provide your credit card there is absolutely no obligation to actually pay the subscription? All that is required is that you provide details in order to create an account. Immediately after this, if you cancel the subscription, you will not be billed, and will still get the 30 days free.
I do. So why isn't the policy changed so that people are able to play those 30 days without giving their credit card details? Age verification is not an issue. That has been discussed already.

[Isobel]

I do. So why isn't the policy changed so that people are able to play those 30 days without giving their credit card details? Age verification is not an issue. That has been discussed already.

To avoid credit card fraud? To track numbers? So they can bill you at the end of the 30 day cycle? Because they want to and the only person who can't seem to get over it is you? They aren't going to change their working policy for one delusional person.

[Thergar]

You're right. Clearly in yellow in the bottom right of the back of the box (right above the UPC code) is the following paragraph:

It's black text on a yellow background, all in capitals. It's direcly under the box that tells you that it includes a 30-day subscription to the game.

Seriously though. Read crap before you post it. As soon as I saw the thread title I said to myself "Oh man, not another Eurpean player griping about something else..." *eyeroll*
I know how the game works now. I gave my proposals to make it work better.

[Jacosta]

I do. So why isn't the policy changed so that people are able to play those 30 days without giving their credit card details? Age verification is not an issue. That has been discussed already.

It is when the government makes it an issue. Oh wait you only support laws when you think they agree with you.

[Jacosta]

I know how the game works now. I gave my proposals to make it work better.

Which would violate US federal law. Use your head for thinking instead of just a hat rack.

[Tarantio]

I do. So why isn't the policy changed so that people are able to play those 30 days without giving their credit card details? Age verification is not an issue. That has been discussed already.

Because that doesn't make good sense. The company provides a service. In order for you to recieve said service, you have to prove that you are capable of paying for said service in the future. Whether or not you intend to is up to you, but your capability is in question. It makes no business sense to provide a months free access to a 'potential customer' if they are not capable of paying for it themselves in the future.

When all is said and done, you seem to thing SOE owes you something? That they are obligated to provide you with a months free access to the game. I'm afraid if you actually read what is offered on the box, it is in fact '30 day game subscription'. These may sound the same, but they are not. It would be perfectly within their rights to only give you this time if you signed on to a monthly/quarterly/yearly subscription, and after you had paid.

For a man who purports to know about commerce/advertising laws, you're a little slow aren't you.

[Thergar]

Which would violate US federal law.
How?

[Jakard]

I read page #1 of this thread and page #18. On most accounts, I believe that you are in the wrong. However, there's the thing about why they need your credit card information. I'm not exactly sure on this... and not all online games have required it. Everquest: Platinum didn't require a credit card for the free 30 days. Of course, this was back in 2004 (it might have even been Everquest: Trilogy which would date me even further). However, from a legal standpoint. I think SOE is pretty well covered on this. I understand where you're coming from though. I remember when pre-paid Visa/Mastercard gift cards were not widely available and I had no way to play a game like Final Fantasy XI (which never came out with gamecards to my knowledge). Things are getting easier though for people like me who's credit is so bad that they can't get credit cards but still wish to play these games. I hope you are able to play now and are enjoying Vanguard.

[Jacosta]

How?

A new law went into effect April 21, 2000 (The Children's Online Privacy Protection Act) which imposed new rules regarding the collection of personal information from children under the age of 13.

Read much of what someone posts? Also in the US, in contract law you must be the age of 18 to be able to enter into contracts. This is because anyone under the age of 18 isn't liable but their parents are.

[Loampounder]

I do. So why isn't the policy changed so that people are able to play those 30 days without giving their credit card details? Age verification is not an issue. That has been discussed already.

Well, it is the company's choice. I am sure they have discussed the pros and cons about their process and have their reasons for doing business the way they do. It sounds more like an internal procedural discussion, with the caveat that SOE's needs, desires, and preferences are not the same as ours.

It's funny how, for the past few pages, the OP has been characterizing his stance as just helping out with suggestions. He began the thread by saying that SOE was breaking laws. We went from illegal international activity to friendly suggestions. :rolleyes:

[Isobel]

Because that doesn't make good sense. The company provides a service. In order for you to recieve said service, you have to prove that you are capable of paying for said service in the future. Whether or not you intend to is up to you, but your capability is in question. It makes no business sense to provide a months free access to a 'potential customer' if they are not capable of paying for it themselves in the future.

When all is said and done, you seem to thing SOE owes you something? That they are obligated to provide you with a months free access to the game. I'm afraid if you actually read what is offered on the box, it is in fact '30 day game subscription'. These may sound the same, but they are not. It would be perfectly within their rights to only give you this time if you signed on to a monthly/quarterly/yearly subscription, and after you had paid.

For a man who purports to know about commerce/advertising laws, you're a little slow aren't you.

Not to mention the fact that this is all based on personal choice. If you know that you require a particular payment method inorder to play and you choose not to adopt that method, you can't blame the company. You can only blame yourself.

[Thergar]

Because that doesn't make good sense. The company provides a service. In order for you to recieve said service, you have to prove that you are capable of paying for said service in the future. Whether or not you intend to is up to you, but your capability is in question. It makes no business sense to provide a months free access to a 'potential customer' if they are not capable of paying for it themselves in the future.
Give me a break. Somebody buys the game for $50 and the company cannot afford to give him a free access for 30 days? Or even 3 days?

When the random guy who downloads the game and uses a buddy key can play the game for 10 days?

[Thergar]

Read much of what someone posts? Also in the US, in contract law you must be the age of 18 to be able to enter into contracts. This is because anyone under the age of 18 isn't liable but their parents are.
A straw man as game cards are available.

[Loampounder]

Give me a break. Somebody buys the game for $50 and the company cannot afford to give him a free access for 30 days? Or even 3 days?

I believe Tarantio was discussion business sense, not the ability for SOE to afford that. Like most money-grubbing, evil American companies, SOE is looking for money.

[Isobel]

Give me a break. Somebody buys the game for $50 and the company cannot afford to give him a free access for 30 days? Or even 3 days?

When the random guy who downloads the game and uses a buddy key can play the game for 10 days?

They may be able to afford it. They aren't obligated to. As it is made clear to the consumer that the credit card is needed before they buy the game the company isn't obligated to give you anything more than was orginally promised.

[Jacosta]

A straw man as game cards are available.

Not a strawman since game cards shift liability from SOE to the retail company on proving age. Oh right you forgot that as well since I've stated it repeatedly.

[Jacosta]

I believe Tarantio was discussion business sense, not the ability for SOE to afford that. Like most money-grubbing, evil American companies, SOE is looking for money.

Except SOE is a Japanese company. ;)

[Thergar]

I believe Tarantio was discussion business sense, not the ability for SOE to afford that. Like most money-grubbing, evil American companies, SOE is looking for money.
The company's approach does not reward paying customers while it does reward freeriders. Why should people be able to play the game without Credit card / game card if they don't have the CD key while people who have the CD key cannot do so?

It is not good business sense. Customers first.

[Jacosta]

The company's approach does not reward paying customers while it does reward freeriders. Why should people be able to play the game without Credit card / game card if they don't have the CD key while people who have the CD key cannot do so?

It is not good business sense. Customers first.

Who cares what you think? Frankly after your thorough trashing concerning law I'm pretty positive you're a lousy armchair businessman.

[Jakard]

Except SOE is a Japanese company. ;)

I'm not quite sure about that statement. Sony is obviously a Japanese company. However, SOE's headquarters and all of their divisions and studios appear to be in America. Not that this is very relevant (and I might be wrong) but I just wanted to throw that in... in case I am right. LOL

[Jacosta]

I'm not quite sure about that statement. Sony is obviously a Japanese company. However, SOE's headquarters and all of their divisions and studios appear to be in America. Not that this is very relevant (and I might be wrong) but I just wanted to throw that in... in case I am right. LOL

I'm looking at the entirety of the Sony company not just a division of it. ;)

[Loampounder]

Except SOE is a Japanese company. ;)

I know Sony is, but not sure about SOE. Does Japan have LLC's? We could trace the corporate papers of Sony Pictures Digital and Sony Computer Entertainment America to find out what they are, since they own SOE. I would not assume that just because the word "Sony" is used that it's a Japanese company.

[Thergar]

Who cares what you think? Frankly after your thorough trashing concerning law I'm pretty positive you're a lousy armchair businessman.
I don't care what you think. You are again on my ignore list because I am tired of your ad hominems.

[Jakard]

Except SOE is a Japanese company. ;)

I'm looking at the entirety of the Sony company not just a division of it. ;)

Okay. You win. :)

[Thergar]

Not a strawman since game cards shift liability from SOE to the retail company on proving age. Oh right you forgot that as well since I've stated it repeatedly.
Retail companies are also supposed to take care that children under 13 are not buying the game. This game is rated Teen, after all... :cool:

[Loampounder]

The company's approach does not reward paying customers while it does reward freeriders. Why should people be able to play the game without Credit card / game card if they don't have the CD key while people who have the CD key cannot do so?

It is not good business sense. Customers first.

Who cares what you think? Frankly after your thorough trashing concerning law I'm pretty positive you're a lousy armchair businessman.


Jac has a good, albiet crude, point. Your ideals may or may not be good business sense. SOE has been know to make a profit over the years, and their lack of success the magnitude of WoW says more about Blizzard's design sensibility and gaming heritage than SOE's lack of business sense.

[Jacosta]

I know Sony is, but not sure about SOE. Does Japan have LLC's? We could trace the corporate papers of Sony Pictures Digital and Sony Computer Entertainment America to find out what they are, since they own SOE. I would not assume that just because the word "Sony" is used that it's a Japanese company.

I'd spare you the full listing of their holdings, but here's the link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corporation_shareholders_and_subsidiaries) SOE is a subsidiary of Sony Global.

[Loampounder]

Okay. You win. :)

Not so fast - we were not talking about Sony as a whole but SOE.

[Jacosta]

Retail companies are also supposed to take care that children under 13 are not buying the game. This game is rated Teen, after all... :cool:

Their parents are the ones making sure what their kids are playing. If the parents aren't then the blame lies with the parents.

[Jacosta]

I don't care what you think. You are again on my ignore list because I am tired of your ad hominems.

Can anyone find an ad hominem in my statement? I don't see it.

Who cares what you think? Frankly after your thorough trashing concerning law I'm pretty positive you're a lousy armchair businessman.

[Loampounder]

I'd spare you the full listing of their holdings, but here's the link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corporation_shareholders_and_subsidiaries) SOE is a subsidiary of Sony Global.

Does that make Chrysler a German car company?

If SOE is encorporated as a LLC in California, I would say it's an American company. Yeah, we are splitting hairs on page 20 of a sad thread, but at least it's still alive.

[Jacosta]

Does that make Chrysler a German car company?

If SOE is encorporated as a LLC in California, I would say it's an American company. Yeah, we are splitting hairs on page 20 of a sad thread, but at least it's still alive.

Technically Chrysler is a American and German car company. Just like Jaguar is an American company since Ford owns it.

[Thork]

Yay, I just finished reading the entire Thread....and I would just like to say that Thergar is quite funny. Changing stances Mid convo isn't a good way to back up an argument.

[Loampounder]

Retail companies are also supposed to take care that children under 13 are not buying the game. This game is rated Teen, after all... :cool:

I don't believe that there is any legal requirement on this. Isn't the ESRB rating a self-regulating issue?

[Thergar]

Jac has a good, albiet crude, point. Your ideals may or may not be good business sense. SOE has been know to make a profit over the years, and their lack of success the magnitude of WoW says more about Blizzard's design sensibility and gaming heritage than SOE's lack of business sense.
Proposals made by players stand on their own merits. They aren't put down because SOE is historically profitable.

[Jacosta]

Proposals made by players stand on their own merits. They aren't put down because SOE is historically profitable.

If you're going to quote someone make sure you attribute the post to the right person. As for your proposal, you shot yourself in the foot with your title and your failed armchair lawyering. If I was SOE I'd tell you to piss off.

[Thergar]

Yay, I just finished reading the entire Thread....and I would just like to say that Thergar is quite funny. Changing stances Mid convo isn't a good way to back up an argument.
Perhaps that is because you are of that opinion because you lack reading comprehension skills. And will never make it to the Law School.

[Thergar]

If you're going to quote someone make sure you attribute the post to the right person. As for your proposal, you shot yourself in the foot with your title and your failed armchair lawyering. If I was SOE I'd tell you to piss off.
However, you are not SOE.

[Jacosta]

However, you are not SOE.

Nope, but I can still tell you to piss off. :p

[Loampounder]

Technically Chrysler is a American and German car company. Just like Jaguar is an American company since Ford owns it.

No, you are oversimplying the "subsidary of..." idea. Jaguar is a British company. Certainly tariffs apply to any Jaguar sold in the US. The key is the articles of corporation, not who owns the keys.

[Loampounder]

Proposals made by players stand on their own merits. They aren't put down because SOE is historically profitable.

LOL, correct, but they certainly have a better track record that some posters. I could suggest that they could get more customers by giving the game away for free, but that does not mean I know what I am talking about. Sometimes, the professionals DO know their business.

[Thergar]

Their parents are the ones making sure what their kids are playing. If the parents aren't then the blame lies with the parents.
Which means that your arguments have come to a full circle.

If the parents are supposed to watch what the kids are playing there will be no obstacles in US federal law to granting a free month of game time for all people who buy this game.

[Loampounder]

However, you are not SOE.

Well, for the record, I'm not sure if that's been shown yet. Jac always has been quite a vanboi. ;)

[Loampounder]

Which means that your arguments have come to a full circle.

If the parents are supposed to watch what the kids are playing there will be no obstacles in US federal law to granting a free month of game time for all people who buy this game.

LOLOLOL. Don't understand our Congress much, do you? Federal law does not always bow down to common sense. Parents are suppose to but Congress can still enact laws to require what they want.

But thanks for the good laugh.

[Eis]

Thergar, I am in absolute awe of your ego.

[Sait]

I dont know if this has been covered but it dose test to see if the card is valid .. I know cause my bank charged me 1 dollars for each of the accounts i registered and seid it was sony charging me :-)

:D

[Thergar]

Anyway, I think everything has been said that can be said. My Game Card arrives today so I shall leave these useless boards and go playing.

These conversations grant you no exp.

[Tarantio]

Perhaps that is because you are of that opinion because you lack reading comprehension skills. And will never make it to the Law School.

I would like to put it to you that there are two possibilities in this situation.

1. You have never been to law school, and your interpretation of whatever 3rd rate website that gave you your information is wrong.
2. You are, as you say, in law school/have passed through law school, and are merely stupid.

I have quoted the law to you. I have quoted how SOE is perfectly within said law. Now you have changed your argument, to fit your opinion. This is the act of a man who is speaking about matters upon which he has no knowledge whatsoever.

[Loampounder]

These conversations grant you no exp.

But, but, but... (points to left margin)... postcount!

[Isobel]

The company's approach does not reward paying customers while it does reward freeriders. Why should people be able to play the game without Credit card / game card if they don't have the CD key while people who have the CD key cannot do so?

It is not good business sense. Customers first.

Ok so first Sigil/SOE was breaking the law beacuse they didn't make it clear that you needed a credit card to play the game? Except they did.

Then they mislead you by not making it clear that you could obtain a game card instead of using a credit card? Except the shouldn't because game cards aren't avalibel to all EU countries so they can't really do that.

Then you should have been able to just enter your CD key and start playing? Except noone can do that. We all have to enter some form of plan for payment before we play.

Then SOE uses mislead advertising in saying the game is recommended for 12+? Except the ESRB gives that rating not the company so that's not true either.

Then if you choose to buy a game card you are being mislead beacuse the choice to buy a game card falsifies the advertising? Except it doesn't. If you had a credit card you would have a free month.

Then you were posting for the last time in this thread. 35 odd posts later you're still trying to convince us that you should get a free month based on your neglect to read the box, misunderstanding the infomation on the box, or desire to bypass the consequences of your choices.

Either way. It doesn't change the underlying facts. The information was accessable to everyone. The fact that you may or may not have used that access is not the fault of SOE and you should recieve compensation for it.

[Loampounder]

I would like to put it to you that there are two possibilities in this situation....

Well, the third possibility is that Finnish interpretation of laws do not compare to how American laws are applied. American law has foundations in English Common law. We cannot assume that Finnish Reindeer Herd Law would has the same point of view on these topics as Common law.

[Tarantio]

Well, the third possibility is that Finnish interpretation of laws do not compare to how American laws are applied. American law has foundations in English Common law. We cannot assume that Finnish Reindeer Herd Law would has the same point of view on these topics as Common law.


You don't seem to understand me. The laws I quoted were Finnish laws. Not everyone on this Board is American. :)

[Loampounder]

Isobel, you forgot the point that SOE is wrong because the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) said that the OP could play before he bought a game card just by entering the account key, despite what SOE printed on the box.

[Faite]

Well, the third possibility is that Finnish interpretation of laws do not compare to how American laws are applied. American law has foundations in English Common law. We cannot assume that Finnish Reindeer Herd Law would has the same point of view on these topics as Common law.

Mm Reindeers! I love reindeers. One of my favorite things in WOW was my little pet reindeer. OMG did I say the W word?

/slaps herself.

What I heard is that in Finland reindeers must first enter their credit card before being prompted to enter the cd key, this somehow makes it all ok.

[Loampounder]

You don't seem to understand me. The laws I quoted were Finnish laws. Not everyone on this Board is American. :)

Are you Finnish? I could see where I would be wrong with a Finnish poster reading the Finnish OP's interpretation of the Finnish laws.

[Isobel]

Isobel, you forgot the point that SOE is wrong because the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) said that the OP could play before he bought a game card just by entering the account key, despite what SOE printed on the box.

Yes, because i fervently hope the OP is kidding about that as a logical reason why he should be compensated.

[Thergar]

You don't seem to understand me. The laws I quoted were finnish laws.
Your problem is that you don't speak Finnish. You totally misunderstood them. The English translations are not very good and they are not authoritative.

[Isobel]

Your problem is that you don't speak Finnish. You totally misunderstood them. The English translations are not very good and they are not authoritative.

None of that changes the fact that SOE clearly tells consumers what they need to play the game. You weren't mislead. You weren't lied to. You either didn't read the box or didn't understand the box, neither of which is SOE's fault.

[Thergar]

Isobel, you forgot the point that SOE is wrong because the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) said that the OP could play before he bought a game card just by entering the account key, despite what SOE printed on the box.
No, that was an example how SOE fails to brief the retailers to sell their game right.

[Loampounder]

Your problem is that you don't speak Finnish. You totally misunderstood them. The English translations are not very good and they are not authoritative.


Yes, Finnish laws are written to be best interpreted by game store clerks. We Americans cannot understand.

[Revolver Koala]

No, that was an example how SOE fails to brief the retailers to sell their game right.
By that logic, if I got someone to buy Vanguard by telling them it cured cancer, it'd be SOE's fault for not briefing me on the fact that Vanguard does not cure cancer. Wow.

[Loampounder]

No, that was an example how SOE fails to brief the retailers to sell their game right.

I'm sure that store was next on the list for SOE to call. It's a big world and the six illegal aliens that SOE hired for the release week could only call so many places in the first three days. And there might (only said "might", don't want to assume too much) have been some Spanish-to-Finnish translation issues.

[Tarantio]

I'm English, but unlike the OP I have some small knowledge of advertising laws. My translations could indeed be wrong, but i fear they are not.

Indeed though, it was very clever to take the word of the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon), over that of the box. It is a ridiculous assumption that you can take the word of a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) as solid, law-backed up fact.

A law student would realise that.

[Thergar]

By that logic, if I got someone to buy Vanguard by telling them it cured cancer, it'd be SOE's fault for not briefing me on the fact that Vanguard does not cure cancer. Wow.
If you are sold a game that doesn't run on your computer and too moderate official system requirements were the reason you bought it the company is definitely responsible.

[Isobel]

I'm English, but unlike the OP I have some small knowledge of advertising laws. My translations could indeed be wrong, but i fear they are not.

Indeed though, it was very clever to take the word of the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon), over that of the box. It is a ridiculous assumption that you can take the word of a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) as solid, law-backed up fact.

A law student would realise that.

An elementary school student would realize that. ;)

[Devyn]

No, that was an example how SOE fails to brief the retailers to sell their game right.Man, you're completely incapable of following your own train of logic, how do you expect anyone else to?

Aside from that, when someone like Faite (probably one of the nicer ones on this board) steps in to make a joke at someone's expense, that's pretty much an indicator that you've lost and should throw in the towel.

[Thergar]

I'm English, but unlike the OP I have some small knowledge of advertising laws. My translations could indeed be wrong, but i fear they are not.

Indeed though, it was very clever to take the word of the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon), over that of the box. It is a ridiculous assumption that you can take the word of a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) as solid, law-backed up fact.

A law student would realise that.
Why do you even think that the issue was law? The guy was a professional worker in a store and an experienced MMORPG gamer. I asked him my question as a normal customer.

I figured that as he had played WOW he should probably know what he has talked about.

[Loampounder]

If you are sold a game that doesn't run on your computer and too moderate official system requirements were the reason you bought it the company is definitely responsible.

Or perhaps the hardware has problems.

But we are getting totally side-tracked. You have said that your problems are with the credit card, so let's not make up things.

[Tarantio]

If you are sold a game that doesn't run on your computer and too moderate official system requirements were the reason you bought it the company is definitely responsible.

You sir, are an imbecile. That would be false advertising.

Lets take a differant scenario. You buy a game because a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon), tells you it is good. He also tells you it can run on a 486. You look at the box, which tells you you will require a pentium 3 or equivalent. Taking the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon)'s word as law, you buy it and take it home. Upon getting home, you find it doesnt work.

This would not enable you to sue the makers of the game, nor would they be at fault in any way shape or form.

Apply this scenario to everything you have said in this thread. In fact, apply it to your life. You might learn something.

[Isobel]

Why do you even think that the issue was law? The guy was a professional worker in a store and an experienced MMORPG gamer. I asked him my question as a normal customer.

I figured that as he had played WOW he should probably know what he has talked about.

BAH HA HA HA HA HA HA. Well that was your first mistake. Different game. Different company. The information clearly printed on the box should take precidence over the word of a lvl 70 anything. One would think a lawyer would be aware of that.

[Loampounder]

Why do you even think that the issue was law? The guy was a professional worker in a store and an experienced MMORPG gamer. I asked him my question as a normal customer.

I figured that as he had played WOW he should probably know what he has talked about.

ROFL. I need to stop reading this thread or I may burst a lung.

"preofessional worker"...

"experienced MMORPG gamer"...

"played WoW"...

Gold, pure gold.

[Tarantio]

Why do you even think that the issue was law?

erm, i was reading your post title?

[Jakard]

I decided to open my Vanguard manual and look at the Terms of Service. It clearly explains in there why a credit card is required and that a credit card IS required. We are all supposed to read the Terms of Service before clicking the "I Accept" button.

[Thergar]

Man, you're completely incapable of following your own train of logic, how do you expect anyone else to?

Aside from that, when someone like Faite (probably one of the nicer ones on this board) steps in to make a joke at someone's expense, that's pretty much an indicator that you've lost and should throw in the towel.
Matters pertaining to Law are often too difficult for laymen to follow. What can I do if you are overwhelmed by the finesse of my jurisprudential arguments and start giggling like little girls?

[Loampounder]

erm, i was reading your post title?

Bad poster, Bad!

Next thing we know you will say that you read the rant about breaking the law in the original post!

[Isobel]

erm, i was reading your post title?

And most of his other posts in this thread.

Ooops. /wave Loam

Bad bad poster! taking the words of the OP as representative of his actual point.

[Devyn]

Matters pertaining to Law are often too difficult for laymen to follow. What can I do if you are overwhelmed by the finesse of my jurisprudential arguments and start giggling like little girls?Your complaint about this situation has changed almost every time you post. That doesn't bode well for your critical thinking skills.

I agree that matters pertaining to Law are often too difficult for your average layman, which is why I suggested that you sit down and color before people start registering solely to mock you.

[Loampounder]

Matters pertaining to Law are often too difficult for laymen to follow. What can I do if you are overwhelmed by the finesse of my jurisprudential arguments and start giggling like little girls?

Do your jurisprudence discussions often include a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon)?

The problem is that any legal discussion would use the written notification by the publishing company instead of the opinion of a store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon). You cannot say that you an indepth legal understanding of the issue and then point to the store clerk (who has a lvl 70 WoW toon) as support for your discussion.

Hence, why we girls start to giggle.