PVP mechanics problems

[axamander]

some of this stuff has been brought up in other threads, but its important enough to warrent complete descriptions and suggestions of possible solutions

from the point of Grimtooth: 33 rogue, Tharridon

1. invisiblility: PROBLEMS
a. invis vs. stealth: I see no reason why as a rogue, i have to work to train up my stealth skill, and move at 55% runspeed, and be seen by 50% of white con mobs and ALL yellow con mobs...while an invisibility caster can run at 100%+ runspeed through a crowd of purple con mobs...

SOLUTION: change casted invisibility to be "stealth" with a sneak / hide skill equal to the casters alteration (or whatever) skill...i think this is a much better option than changing stealth to be what invisibility is currently...

b. invis and detection: I see no reason why as a rogue, people can make a detection skill check to see me, and yet i cannot see a "casted" invis character who is 15 levels lower than me with my maxxed detection skill.

SOLUTOIN: allow characters to use Detection skill to try to see invisible characters no matter if it is stealth OR casted invis...change "see invis" skills to be a spell that adds a modifier to that characters detection skill, either flat or % based

c. invis and combat: this is a complicated one...currently the most aggregious offenders are bards...when you are fighting a group v group battle a bard can make the entire group invisible every 3 seconds, causing all opponents to lose thier offensive target...but in addition to this, caster classes can invis, nuke, re-invis in mid combat...rangers and rogues can do this as well, although less effectively, and with alot more button pushing.

SOLUTION: when a mob is chasing you, you cannot invis and dissapear from its targetting, simply make this the same for pvp...if a person has you as thier offensive target, going invis should not cause you to drop from thier targetting...

d. invis and pets: currently all classes who can use a pet of any kind, summoned or charmed, can maintain possion / control of said pet...and have it attacking other players, while invisible.

SOLUTION: if the pet owner goes invisble, the pet should become heartbroken that its master has abandoned it, and take its own life (if it was charmed, it could simply return to what it was doing before...or even better, as per (c.) just attack its previous owner)

ADDENDUM 1: this would be SOOOO much less of a problem if it was actually possible to target a pet in any way at all, rather than just cussing out loud as you run away from it and / or die.

ADDENDUM 2: this would also be less of a problem if pets were somehow flagged like PC's instead of NPC's...and what i mean by this specifically is that melee fighters take a pvp damage reduction, but melee pets do not suffer such damage reductions in pvp...ie, pet hits players just as hard as it hits NPC's

ADDENDUM 3: this might be stretching it a bit, but i will just bring up the fact that pets ignore most environment based tactics in pvp... for example, when you know you are going to be fighting, its often best to take up a tactical position around objects that will obstruct line of sight. if for instance, you are inside a building, a pet class can /targetauto player_04, and hit pet attack...pet will then open the door, enter the building and attack said player. i doubt that there is anything to be done about this, but i bring it up none-the-less.

Conclusion: I do not mean for this post to be a rant, which is why i have not named any players or guilds. The reason for this post is that i, and many other players, see these things as flaws in the game that we would like fixed. I would like to remind readers that in the beginning of this post i said that i was a rogue... so know that I am not asking for "other" players to be nerfed, but that i am asking for my own beloved rogue (possibly the most gimp of all classes) to be nerfed in addition, and here is my reasoning.

by using "in-combat invising" I can kill a player who cannot detect me, without ever going out of invis, without allowing them to target me offensively. this is not something that i feel that i should be able to do, but considering the atmosphere on tharridon, you can bet that i will continue to do this to my enemies until it is fixed.

Grimtooth <Voodoo>
Tharridon

[Demonix]

some of this stuff has been brought up in other threads, but its important enough to warrent complete descriptions and suggestions of possible solutions

from the point of Grimtooth: 33 rogue, Tharridon

1. invisiblility: PROBLEMS
a. invis vs. stealth: I see no reason why as a rogue, i have to work to train up my stealth skill, and move at 55% runspeed, and be seen by 50% of white con mobs and ALL yellow con mobs...while an invisibility caster can run at 100%+ runspeed through a crowd of purple con mobs...
Understandable, but this is a PvE fix, not PVP.

SOLUTION: change casted invisibility to be "stealth" with a sneak / hide skill equal to the casters alteration (or whatever) skill...i think this is a much better option than changing stealth to be what invisibility is currently...
Some mobs see invis making caster invis entirely useless. Hence the advantage to sneak. Expect to see this more at higher levels.

b. invis and detection: I see no reason why as a rogue, people can make a detection skill check to see me, and yet i cannot see a "casted" invis character who is 15 levels lower than me with my maxxed detection skill.

SOLUTOIN: allow characters to use Detection skill to try to see invisible characters no matter if it is stealth OR casted invis...change "see invis" skills to be a spell that adds a modifier to that characters detection skill, either flat or % based
As more sorcs and psions get their See Invis spells you are going to see caster invis being much more useless. A high percentage of groups will have at least one of either sorc or psion which means See Invis for the entire group, and as a 1 hour buff (I think it's a full hour) that means an hour after you leave the group of seeing incoming casters. Also, See Invis pops you out at max distance whereas stealth detection doesn't occur until a much closer range. Once again, as more people get to a higher level and group PVP becomes more common this will be less of an issue and stealth will be a better choice. Also with higher level a lot of items it's supposed to be easier to get See Invis jewelry and even if you didn't wear it all the time, a repeat offender would only be able to get you once before you were smart enough to put on the earring for when he came back the second time.

c. invis and combat: this is a complicated one...currently the most aggregious offenders are bards...when you are fighting a group v group battle a bard can make the entire group invisible every 3 seconds, causing all opponents to lose thier offensive target...but in addition to this, caster classes can invis, nuke, re-invis in mid combat...rangers and rogues can do this as well, although less effectively, and with alot more button pushing.

SOLUTION: when a mob is chasing you, you cannot invis and dissapear from its targetting, simply make this the same for pvp...if a person has you as thier offensive target, going invis should not cause you to drop from thier targetting...

Agreed. I abused this way too much on my sorc at release when I'd attack a group of higher level characters, take out a couple before they knew what was happening, and then re-invis before the others could do anything about it and run away just to come back and do it again later. I knew it was cheap, but it kept me alive. One problem is that this would break duels with stealth/invis classes for those that like to duel especially for ranger/rogue who usually like to start in stealth(rangers to ensure they're out of combat for Crit Shot/DA and rogues because, well, they're rogues). It would need to be implemented such that it DOES wipe targets at the beginning of a duel so you can use stealth/invis.

d. invis and pets: currently all classes who can use a pet of any kind, summoned or charmed, can maintain possion / control of said pet...and have it attacking other players, while invisible.

SOLUTION: if the pet owner goes invisble, the pet should become heartbroken that its master has abandoned it, and take its own life (if it was charmed, it could simply return to what it was doing before...or even better, as per (c.) just attack its previous owner)
Also agreed. This is how most games have handled this, except for Night Elf Hunters in WoW. Dumb.

ADDENDUM 1: this would be SOOOO much less of a problem if it was actually possible to target a pet in any way at all, rather than just cussing out loud as you run away from it and / or die.
You can. I think it's CTRL+click or ALT+click...I don't remember off the top of my head.

ADDENDUM 2: this would also be less of a problem if pets were somehow flagged like PC's instead of NPC's...and what i mean by this specifically is that melee fighters take a pvp damage reduction, but melee pets do not suffer such damage reductions in pvp...ie, pet hits players just as hard as it hits NPC's
Well, this also means you hit the pet twice as hard and take it out twice as fast if you decide to kill it. Though usually you'd rather kill the owner, and if the owner couldn't go invis and you could take them out right away I could see the point of changing it.

ADDENDUM 3: this might be stretching it a bit, but i will just bring up the fact that pets ignore most environment based tactics in pvp... for example, when you know you are going to be fighting, its often best to take up a tactical position around objects that will obstruct line of sight. if for instance, you are inside a building, a pet class can /targetauto player_04, and hit pet attack...pet will then open the door, enter the building and attack said player. i doubt that there is anything to be done about this, but i bring it up none-the-less.
Yes, it would make sense if you had to be able to see the target for the pet just like with any skill at least to send it after them. Once it's on them it should be able to follow them regardless of LOS obstructions.

"Go attack that guy! *points at wall*"
"What guy?"

Conclusion: I do not mean for this post to be a rant, which is why i have not named any players or guilds. The reason for this post is that i, and many other players, see these things as flaws in the game that we would like fixed. I would like to remind readers that in the beginning of this post i said that i was a rogue... so know that I am not asking for "other" players to be nerfed, but that i am asking for my own beloved rogue (possibly the most gimp of all classes) to be nerfed in addition, and here is my reasoning.

by using "in-combat invising" I can kill a player who cannot detect me, without ever going out of invis, without allowing them to target me offensively. this is not something that i feel that i should be able to do, but considering the atmosphere on tharridon, you can bet that i will continue to do this to my enemies until it is fixed.
Heh, my sentiments exactly for my sorc even without a pet. Attack and invis if something goes wrong. It's a Get Out Of Jail Free card as long as the other guy doesn't have See Invis which is rare at this point.

Grimtooth <Voodoo>
Tharridon

Had to put something outside of the quote. Here it is.

[axamander]

....and here is why dev's need to look at pets on the pvp servers...
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o304/Axamander/pet.jpg

[Gangster-Man]

some of this stuff has been brought up in other threads, but its important enough to warrent complete descriptions and suggestions of possible solutions

from the point of Grimtooth: 33 rogue, Tharridon

1. invisiblility: PROBLEMS
a. invis vs. stealth: I see no reason why as a rogue, i have to work to train up my stealth skill, and move at 55% runspeed, and be seen by 50% of white con mobs and ALL yellow con mobs...while an invisibility caster can run at 100%+ runspeed through a crowd of purple con mobs...

SOLUTION: change casted invisibility to be "stealth" with a sneak / hide skill equal to the casters alteration (or whatever) skill...i think this is a much better option than changing stealth to be what invisibility is currently...

b. invis and detection: I see no reason why as a rogue, people can make a detection skill check to see me, and yet i cannot see a "casted" invis character who is 15 levels lower than me with my maxxed detection skill.

I just wnated to respond on that part. I am a PSI myself, and of course have access to mirage. Now, any any rpg, D&D, game I have played, it is always very obvious that a sneaking rogue/ranger whatever, will be very good at stealthing, but someone who has MAGIC to conceal themselves, will always be way more effective.

And like the poster above said, later on the mobs see right through your invis,mirage, and may not see your stealth very well, so it does even up.

But keep in mind that a magic spell should be more effective than a physical skill, in concealment at least.

[omenz]

Have to agree with what Grim says here, especially the invis in combat BS. Hope this stuff gets changed soon.

[Kaltor]

d. invis and pets: currently all classes who can use a pet of any kind, summoned or charmed, can maintain possion / control of said pet...and have it attacking other players, while invisible.

SOLUTION: if the pet owner goes invisble, the pet should become heartbroken that its master has abandoned it, and take its own life (if it was charmed, it could simply return to what it was doing before...or even better, as per (c.) just attack its previous owner)

I do not aggree with this. Instead of making pets die apon caster invising, just make invis drop if your pet attacks, as would if you attacked.

P.S. your solution would also cause another problem. say a necro is fighting a sorc or psi ... all they would have to do is def target the necro and invis him and poof no more pet. I do not want people using invis as a weapon.

Grimtooth <Voodoo>
Tharridon

This would be a little bit better imo

Edit: also since "invis" and "stealth" or completely different skills I think that(if its not currently like this) the see invis spell should not work for stealthed mobs or people. This should solely rely on detection skill.