A new diplomat's tale (warning: longer than your arm)

[Fozzik]

Calling all diplomats!

What am I doing wrong?

Those words have been echoing through my head for a few hours now, maybe even a day or two, and I decided it was high time I consulted some of the more experienced diplomats in this great community. I want to tell you the story of my start in Vanguard’s most unique sphere, and ask a few questions at the end that hopefully some kind soul will see fit to answer. As with many in the diplomatic profession, I love to talk...so I provide my most humble apologies at the outset for my long-winded explanation.

Onward! I started my young diplomat as a Thestran Human in Tursh. I didn’t base this on the particular cards this would make available to me at level 500, or the extra .002% advantage that may or may not be available to my race/class... I did it because it seemed like an ok choice and I wanted a character with red hair and a stubbly beard.

I did the starting quests for diplomacy in Tursh, and followed the story through to its conclusion. I enjoyed it very much, and of course ended with a bit of diplomacy gear, a decent deck of cards (I believe I have 20 or so?), and a skill level of 44.

The only comment I would have on this experience that wasn’t positive was that I’m very confused about the “continue” button when I finish a parlay. Why does the “continue” button close all the windows? Shouldn’t “continue” take you back to the original “hail” screen and show the next part of the quest...as in...continuing the quest? I think there should really be two buttons on the story window when a parlay is complete...a continue button which takes you back to the original hail screen so you can continue, and a “close” button which does what the current “continue” button does (i.e. closes everything). That would make much more intuitive sense.

I then took a break and did some adventuring (knowing that the very final quest required me to be level 10 for the horse). Once I reached level 11, I got right back in and got my horse. Fun stuff! So here I am, having finished the n00b experience, as it were, and now I’m being dropped into the wide world of diplomacy...what to do with newfound skills?

I passed through Leth Nurae on the way to Veskal’s Exchange, and the city was beautiful enough that I wanted to return. Wow, how much it’s changed since early beta! I headed back to Leth and decided to try out civic diplomacy. I couldn’t seem to find any new quests like the starter ones, but I hadn’t looked super hard so I’m guessing we’ll just chalk this up to me not seeing them.

I started civic diplomacy and quickly realized a whole new world was opening up. I get presence, I get faction, I get hearsay and rumors and evidence, oh my! I started out doing some parlays with guards who had a skill of 50, but quickly realized that they were pushovers. I searched around a bit and found some level 75 diplomats from various groups (academics, crafters, soldiers mostly). I chatted away with them for several hours and found that my skill had advanced to the point where they were boring me (something like 60 or so), so I started taking on 100 skill NPCs. I continued the grind (on the various groups I could find) all the way to a skill of 80 in diplomacy.

Along with 10 or 12 presence points in crafting, soldier, and academic (I think academic), I now had a huge pile of hearsay, rumors, and plots. I headed off for Veskal’s Exchange (at the urging of the /dip channel...which I later learned was very aptly named). I turned in all the information I could to the various informants, and ended up with a veritable truckload of clothing that added presence to various groups. Woot! I’m having a great time!

And then... the screeching halt.

I decided it was about time I found some more quests. Civic diplomacy is ok, and I liked playing with the levers and getting all the various skillups...but it was beginning to feel like too much of a grind and I wanted a break (and maybe some different types of loot and a story to read). I didn’t have to go far. Right there is Veskal’s I found a nice dwarf who wanted me to talk to several people about some fancy metal.

I ran about and discovered that the different NPCs required different presence in order to complete each stage of the quest. No problem! With my new-found gear, I was able to get my presence above the required 25 (just barely) for each NPC. I was a bit disappointed to find, however...that once I got my presence high enough to start the parlay...the parlay was trivial to me. The NPCs were of skill level 50 and I could beat them without even trying (I’m up to 80, remember). Ok...well... I’d like to finish the quest anyway, just for fun.

The last NPC I need to talk to needs 25 outsider presence in order to start the parlay (again level 50, so I’ll win with only two cards, if I want to). I shuffle around my gear. I shuffle some more. I rummage. Turns out that I can only get my outsider presence up to 23. Drat... 2 points short. No big deal, I think... let’s see what I can do. After all...the quest is trivial from a diplomacy skill level. I can beat these NPCs with my mouth tied behind my back so it shouldn’t be that big a deal to get 2 points and finish this quest, right? Wrong.

I ask in the /dip channel...how can I get an earring or something to get 2 more points of outsider presence? The Exchange, of course. Ah! What an idiot I am... I hadn’t thought of that at all. Surely some other much more skilled diplomat is selling a little trinket with 2 measly points on it. I point my horse back towards Leth Nurea. On arriving, I discover that no one is offering anything at all useful on the exchange. In fact, it appears that everyone is offering the exact same gear that I have piled in my backpacks. Ug... ok, scratch that idea. How else might I get some outsider presence? But of course! I can parlay with an outsider!

So I run around Leth for an ungodly amount of time, and discover for the first time that... outsiders are rare. Interesting... some might say “challenging”... the only outsider I can find in Leth is a cute little Halfling whose diplomacy skill just happens to be... FIVE HUNDRED. No help there. So I ask the /dip channel. Now we get to the good part.

According to the seemingly polite and helpful members of the /dip channel (again, the humor in the name is most definitely not lost on me) mention that the place to go for outsider presence is... Tawar Galan (most likely misspelled, I apologize).

Where is this haven of the misplaced, I asked? Kojan. So, it turns out that my quest for 2 little presence points is now going to take me completely to the other side of the game world, it seems. I was just a little frustrated at this point. I tried to explain the source of my frustration in the /dip channel, and was met with some of the most snooty, condescending, and outright rude responses I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading.

If Kojan was where I needed to go to get 2 points of outsider faction, then by God, that’s where I was going to go. I jumped on my horse and headed for New Targonor. After dodging some higher-leveled baddies along the roadside and running my poor level 1 diplomacy steed half to death... I arrived in the great city and found the teleport to Kojan.

The port city sure is beautiful (I won’t butcher the name a second time by trying to spell it). I must have run around enjoying the sights for more than an hour. There was another reason I ran around that long, however.... remember the part where I told the /dip channel I was skill 80? I couldn’t find a single NPC to parlay with in that whole town that was lower than a skill of 175. That’s right...absolutely no NPC I could hope to win against.

So that brings us up to date, and to my short list of questions (again, I apologize for the length of my story). Here I am... a burgeoning diplomat of 80 skill...and no presence for any group higher than about 27. I'm now sitting on Kojan looking at a lot of quests that require 2 more outsider presence than I currently have. Yep...there are more quests on Kojan that I am exactly 2 points short of being able to complete.

What did I do wrong?

I checked out several more quests in various places (Kojan, 3 rivers, etc)... and I’ve found exactly the same thing everywhere. I’m severely limited by presence. The opponents who are around my level (75 diplomacy skill) require a presence of 80...which I am nowhere close to having. The opponents who require presence I can achieve (25), have a diplomacy skill of 50 and I can simply click through with two cards and never lose.

Is that what diplomacy is meant to be like? Is the challenge in gaining enough presence... instead of in actually DOING the diplomacy? That seems sort of sad, if true.

Is the only way to successfully move up going to be to completely out-level everything using civic in order to get my presence up enough, and then go back and just click through the quests? Where’s the fun in that?

What am I missing here? And last of all, of course... is it intentional for a quest like the one in Veskal’s to get hung up on outsider presence like it did for me, forcing me to travel the globe in search of an NPC? Did I just get unlucky? Are most people hung up on a presence that they can gain more easily? Or should I just be biting the bullet and grinding some more civic until I earn the presence (and even further out-level the quest)?

Also, if anyone reads completely through that, you get a cookie. =) *hands cookie over*

[Minwanabi]

Hey, I read the whole thing, and I want a cookie =P. Unfortunately, the only advice I have to offer you is that you've made no mistakes, nor done anything wrong. As it currently stands, you need an extremely large amount of presence to do any of the diplo quests, which end up just offering you gear that is only slightly better than information broker gear, just to get you followup quests that require even more presence. I cannot fathom the grind required to max each type of presence. Sorry that I was no help whatsoever, but I think I can confirm that you aren't doing anything wrong.

[Rowain deWolf]

I read your interesting story too (where is my Cookie?). The only help I can offer is this thread (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11264) and of course the hint to
VGTact-questlist (http://vgtact.com/showthread.php?t=1817)

Perhaps they have more hints and help there too. Could also be that that is one of the few things that will be worked on post-release ;)

[Fozzik]

Thanks for reading and responding. I'm sorry to hear that the system is set up this way... I was hoping I missed some big thing that switched it from being based on presence to being based on diplomacy skill.

It's a shame really. The questing and actually being challenged by NPCs my level is kind of fun...but the grinding civic diplomacy is pretty much as mindless as it gets. Add to that the difficulty in finding certain kinds of NPCs to parlay with (like outsiders of my level, it seems), and it just becomes tedious. I certainly don't mind doing some grinding (as my rise to skill 80 should prove), but some quests that are challenging in the parlay (instead of just a presence check and click-through) really would help break up the monotony.

I don't find it fun to just stand in front of one or two NPCs for hours on end and click through the same cards... I'm not sure why the system would be set up to make that the primary focus. It seems like the focus should be on actually winning the parlay...finding the right strategy and cards to defeat the NPC in order to advance.

[Minwanabi]

I couldn't agree more - I can't actually think of a system that would require more mindless grind. I can stand in a circle and do 100s, 125s, and 150s soldiers forever, EVERY single hand plays out EXACTLY the same, and I cannot possibly lose. Why not add some sort of random element? Make it harder, make it possible to lose other than your VERY first encounter with a new NPC, and increase rewards.

[Scurryfunger]

This is my experience as well. I personally think that because there's such grinding required in order to get enough presence (and yes, the biggest challenge seems to be acquiring presence in order to do quests), all I really want is some lore once I finally get to actually doing the quest I set out to grind presence for. So I don't particularly want a hard parley at that point, but that's my selfish point of view. The gorilla in all this is the presence grinding required. And it definitely separates the few who are willing to do it from the many who aren't. I'm guessing that's the intent for now, possibly while they add more diplomacy quests and content... possibly for good?

[Phaethor]

There are about 4 or 5 NPC's in the outpost just outside of Halgarad. I used them to get my Outsider presence up, and they are level 75 I believe.

Phae

[Scurryfunger]

I should add, if what you want is different, interesting, fun and challenging parleys, all you really need to do is run around and parley different civic npc's at random. This is something I do, also in order to hear all the lore of a particular city. If you do that, there's not anywhere near as tangible a set of rewards in terms of loot... your entire reward for doing this is the lore you get to read.

I think the card game itself is really rich and fun, and it's great how different each game can be, but you can't just sit at one npc if you want the games and npc AI to be different and not a grind of doing the same thing every time.

[Revolver Koala]

Yeah, you didn't do anything wrong, Diplomacy is just a terrific grind. Yeah, you can run around and parley with different civic NPCs to pick up lore, but you can't really advance without spending hours and hours relentlessly grinding away at the same few parleys. The card game is fun, and I love the whole idea of the diplomacy system, but the fact that diplomacy of all things is more of a homogenous grind than either of the other spheres is really, really disappointing.

[ThreadKiller]

From what I understand from one of the other post....I'll try to find it, sorry,

One of the Devs said that diplomacy will become more important when Player Cities become more of a reality. Don't know what that means, but I'm willing to wait a bit. I still think it would be cool if a group need a diplomat to get them into certain caves....gives the diplo a whole new level of importance.

[brusw68]

::muches on cookie::

Other than echoing the advice of all the others presented above as well as concurring that you are not doing anything wrong and are having the same experience I am, I would point out that with your 80 skill, you now have access to 125 Skilled opponents.

The importance of this is that instead of crude information, you will get significant information from them. Significant items are (if you will pardon the pun) significantly better than the ones from crude. Some of the pieces I have gotten go as high as +47 presence. If you can get an outsider at that level, you will blow away the 25 and even broach 50 presence caps. The reason you are not seeing these on the brokers, yet, is because it is at this state of the game these items are the cream of the crop of diplomacy gear. In a year it will be vendor trash; but right now it is the state of the art.

However, yes, Diplomacy is a grind. There are a lack of options in how to pursue with no merchant parlays, with writs (if they are even active) requiring a 200 skill, with there being virtually no quests suitable for a 50ish skill/10ish presence diplomat, let alone this dream of Player City Diplomacy being nothing but rumor at this point. My experience is that 50 to 125 is civic grind and little else (at least that was my experience). I persevere because I believe that content will be added and, once it is, that Diplomacy in Vanguard will be an experience unparalled in MMO.

Of couse, being a completely new venue for online gaming (as far as I know), we being at the front of it means we also get to endure the birthing pains.

[ThreadKiller]

not to change the subject, but does anyone know where the trends informant is in Thestra.....I'm pretty sure there is one at Thelwar's Shield Dam, but I am Vulmane....any others available? I almost have enough faction to go to Leth Nurae.

[Phaethor]

not to change the subject, but does anyone know where the trends informant is in Thestra.....I'm pretty sure there is one at Thelwar's Shield Dam, but I am Vulmane....any others available? I almost have enough faction to go to Leth Nurae.

There is a thread about this just a few down ..

Here is the link to the place here on the Wiki that has all the Informants listed.

http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/Information_Informant

Best

Phae

[ThreadKiller]

There is a thread about this just a few down ..

Here is the link to the place here on the Wiki that has all the Informants listed.

http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/Information_Informant

Best

Phae

thank you, that helps a lot.

[Absalon]

Thanks for reading and responding. I'm sorry to hear that the system is set up this way... I was hoping I missed some big thing that switched it from being based on presence to being based on diplomacy skill.

It's a shame really. The questing and actually being challenged by NPCs my level is kind of fun...but the grinding civic diplomacy is pretty much as mindless as it gets. Add to that the difficulty in finding certain kinds of NPCs to parlay with (like outsiders of my level, it seems), and it just becomes tedious. I certainly don't mind doing some grinding (as my rise to skill 80 should prove), but some quests that are challenging in the parlay (instead of just a presence check and click-through) really would help break up the monotony.

I don't find it fun to just stand in front of one or two NPCs for hours on end and click through the same cards... I'm not sure why the system would be set up to make that the primary focus. It seems like the focus should be on actually winning the parlay...finding the right strategy and cards to defeat the NPC in order to advance.

Let me give you a little background on diplomacy and an idea of what's coming in the future so it will all maybe make some kind of sense. I don't know the exact timetable for any of the new content, but much of it is being worked on now and should make its way into the live game within the next few months.

The current diplomacy system has only been around since beta 3. The entire system that came before then was scrapped because it simply did not work.

The current development team consists of 4 regular people: Aruspex, doomcookie, Linear_core and Zahariel. Sigil decided a long while ago that it didn't make sense to throw a lot of money and development time to a new, experimental sphere of gameplay that may or may not gain wide acceptance among gamers. Basically, they were hedging their bets, putting the majority of their resources into adventuring and crafting where they knew what to expect from the playerbase based on past games.

Because of the two reasons listed above, diplomacy is behind the other spheres in terms of content. That's not an excuse, it's simply a fact that must be dealt with. Hopefully Sigil will see how many people are interested in this sphere and dedicate more people/resources to adding content for it.

Ok, enough history. What's coming? Well, there are multiple systems in the works and other changes being done.

1) Multiple decks - NPCs will have multiple decks for civic diplomacy so that parleys will be more challenging across the board and less repetitive. This will also enable the devs to bring back the missing conversation types, the ones that block the NPC's strongest expression type.

2) Writs - There are currently a few writs in the game in BC and LN, but these are leftovers from the original work done in beta. Proof of concept type stuff really. The devs are currently working on adding this system in a lot more places.

3) Regional Trading - There will be 3 markets associated with regional trading: White, Gray and Black. The White market will likely be implemented first and probably isn't too far off from going live. Regional Trade is the primary money maker for diplomats.

4) House factions in New Targonor and Ahgram. The first part of this was put in today with the quests in NT. I don't know all the details on this, but I think that players will be able to work for different house factions within each city and be able to bring about many different affects within the city. Think civic dip on a smaller scale, but with a lot more affects than just buffs.

5) PvP - I have no idea of the timetable for this, but the devs have mentioned both diplomacy "dueling" and political parties (group pvp).

6) Upgraded horse quests - The initial horse quests gets your a tier 1 horse. They are working on quests for upgrading your horse to tier 2 and 3.

7) Cross sphere content - Some of that should be showing up in Thestra soon, if it hasn't gone in already.

8) Haggling - This was originally intended to be in by launch but was held back for improvements. Last I heard this wasn't a system where you were required to haggle for each purchase, but rather to complete a quest or series of quests for each continent to permanently lower vendor prices (including exchange fees) on that continent. I don't know what improvements are being added to it.

9) Consuls, Missions and Embassies - These are likely all a good way off, but are systems that were mentioned back in beta. Missions are quests on the behalf of goverments while Embassies involve parleys/quests with other humanoid mob races like Gnolls and such. Consuls involve player to player quests.

I'm probably missing some stuff on that list, but it should give you a really good idea of what the devs have planned. As frustrating as it can be at times, the sphere is in good hands and it will only improve as time goes on. For additional info on everything I mentioned above, you can read these links:

Aruspex talks about multiple decks in this thread:

http://www.vgtact.com/showthread.php?p=18291#post18291

Aruspex mentions House Factions and cross sphere content:

http://www.vgtact.com/showthread.php?p=18175#post18175

Chatlog with Aruspex from beta that gives some info about haggling, pvp, political parties and consuls, missions and embassies:

http://www.vanguardspheres.com/forums/interviews/7204-aruspexs-ingame-diplomacy-chatlog.html

You can read about Writs here:

http://www3.telus.net/SpirosB/Vanguard/Diplomacy.htm

Regional Trade (originally posted by Aruspex on the beta 3 forums):

http://www.vgtact.com/showthread.php?t=1604

Aruspex posts about tier 2 and 3 horse quests:

http://www.vgtact.com/showthread.php?t=2087&page=2

[Fozzik]

That's all great info, Absalon...I really appreciate you taking the time.

I have a few questions, if I might... hopefully if you are around you (or others) could shed a little more detailed light on this stuff for me.

First of all... those changes sound cool. Lots of new stuff coming. It doesn't appear to in any way address my central issue with diplomacy, however.

My main concern continues to be... Are all the quests just going to be presence checks? Currently, my presence is the limiting factor... when I have enough presence to start a quest parlay, I'm MUCH higher skill than the NPC and the parlay itself is simply a no-brainer clickfest. It seems that others in the thread are saying that it's not just me... is this going to be the way it is? If so... my question would be why? Why would you not want the parlay itself (the skill of the NPC) to be the challenge, instead of simply having enough presence?

You mentioned writs, and that they are coming. You didn't mention what they are or what they are for. You mentioned regional training...but again you didn't explain what it is. You mentioned three markets, but not how they work or what they do. Any further explanation is greatly appreciated.

Also, any chance on my comment about the "continue" button getting to the ears of a developer? That seems like a really obvious one to me, and a simple fix.

[Absalon]

That's all great info, Absalon...I really appreciate you taking the time.

I have a few questions, if I might... hopefully if you are around you (or others) could shed a little more detailed light on this stuff for me.

First of all... those changes sound cool. Lots of new stuff coming. It doesn't appear to in any way address my central issue with diplomacy, however.

My main concern continues to be... Are all the quests just going to be presence checks? Currently, my presence is the limiting factor... when I have enough presence to start a quest parlay, I'm MUCH higher skill than the NPC and the parlay itself is simply a no-brainer clickfest. It seems that others in the thread are saying that it's not just me... is this going to be the way it is? If so... my question would be why? Why would you not want the parlay itself (the skill of the NPC) to be the challenge, instead of simply having enough presence?


I understand the concern with this and it has been talked about many times on various sites. My thoughts on it are thus:

The skill level of the parley, while having an affect on the difficulty of the parley, has less of an effect than the cards and conversation type of the NPC. I've run into lower level quest NPCs that were harder than higher level ones simply because they had a tougher deck or had a conversation type that I wasn't strong in.

Another thing to consider is that it is really hard for the devs to control when you will do these quests. I'm skill 144 now and I've done a bunch of quests. Many of them were lower skill level, but some were close. 50 may be a little low, I agree, for quests that require 50 presence. They could have easily gone with 75 I think and 50 for the 25 presence quests. But in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference unless you are over 100 and the NPC is under 100. Even then you can run into some difficult parleys.


You mentioned writs, and that they are coming. You didn't mention what they are or what they are for. You mentioned regional training...but again you didn't explain what it is. You mentioned three markets, but not how they work or what they do. Any further explanation is greatly appreciated.


There was more info in the links I provided, but I'll give you a brief description of each.

Writs are special quests. In BC right now, if you are skill 200 you can talk to NPCs in the room before the king's throne room. These are supposed to require 500 BC prestige also, but I don't think that's set up right now. Anyway, you parley with the NPCs there, they are placeholders. When you win the parley, the walk off and another NPC spawns. That may be another placeholder, or it may be a writgiver.

Writs come in 3 flavors: Adventuring, Crafting and Internal. You can read more about them in this link:

http://www3.telus.net/SpirosB/Vanguard/Diplomacy.htm

Also in that link, below the section on Writs, is the Diplomat's Circlet, which I forget to mention earlier. I think this has been changed to a mask rather than a circlet, but AFAIK, it's the same idea.

Regional Trade involves the buying and selling of commodities of varying legalities. Black market is obviously illegal goods and while the most profitable, also involves the highest consequences if you get caught with them. The gray market involves special commodities that are not illegal, but are subject to taxation if you get caught with them.

You can read about Regional Trade here:

http://www.vgtact.com/showthread.php?t=1604


Also, any chance on my comment about the "continue" button getting to the ears of a developer? That seems like a really obvious one to me, and a simple fix.

I haven't seen anyone else ever mention this before, but the best place to post any ideas or bug info is on vgtact. That's where the diplomacy devs are most often found.

[Fozzik]

The skill level of the parley, while having an affect on the difficulty of the parley, has less of an effect than the cards and conversation type of the NPC. I've run into lower level quest NPCs that were harder than higher level ones simply because they had a tougher deck or had a conversation type that I wasn't strong in.

Another thing to consider is that it is really hard for the devs to control when you will do these quests. I'm skill 144 now and I've done a bunch of quests. Many of them were lower skill level, but some were close. 50 may be a little low, I agree, for quests that require 50 presence. They could have easily gone with 75 I think and 50 for the 25 presence quests. But in the end it doesn't make that much of a difference unless you are over 100 and the NPC is under 100. Even then you can run into some difficult parleys.

I can only go by my own experience, as I related above... and I've yet to find a quest that I met the presence requirements for that was anywhere close to challenging when it came to the parlay. Other people are also reporting the same experience in this thread... they too are having trouble meeting the presence requirements, and when they do they are finding the parlays to be trivial.

I understand that it's hard for them to control when I do the quests...but I am actively TRYING to do them at the correct level (i.e. when they are challenging for a parlay standpoint) and I'm unable to because of the presence requirements. I am ONLY able to do the quests as bottom feeding, basically... well after I've outleveled the NPC'a skill because that's what it takes to earn enough presence.

It's very possible that I just got extremely unlucky with presence skillups, and most people have more presence... but I have never found an NPC that could touch me if their skill is 50 and mine is 80. The only way I would lose is if I played no cards at all (there was actually one in Veskals where I had the wrong deck loaded and accidentally started the parlay, and I literally won with only two playable cards) Am I parlaying in the wrong places?

Again, thanks very much for your time. I'm really very surprised no one else has mentioned it being slightly annoying to have to re-hail the NPC in order to continue after you click the "continue" button. In my admittedly odd and slightly smallish brain... it seems like "continue" would mean "keep doing things with this NPC".

[Lyliani]

hooray for cookies :)

You didn't do anything wrong... You probably put in more effort than most people in this situation. Currently, diplomacy is just a mindless grind suited for monkeys. The only way for me to level up is to play the same 4 parlays over and over and over.

What happened to the story lines that they had when we first started? It was so darn cool. Being a dark elf, i loved the noobie diplomacy line. I got to assassinate some people and steal their money... Got a horse too! But it seems all that effort was just to get the free horse, and then it just stops there. I did run across a few more diplomacy people at dark horse downs which required 25 academic skill. My fiancee and i pulled together our gear, and got to 25 academic presence, and we proceeded to do the quest one at a time (since we had to share our gear). Well, the next part of that quest required ***50*** outsider presence which we didn't even come close to having.

So, i have given up on diplomacy for a bit, and my fiancee is still doing the mindless parlays and is around 80 skill... a little lower i think..

oh, and i agree. Having to re-hail the NPC is a pain in the butt especially if the NPC TRAVELS. :(

~Xan