Tanks...

[Larsay]

Hello my fellow tanks, this is my first time posting on the Silky Venom forums... VG is not nor will probably be my last MMO. I played EQ, EQ2, AO, SWG, and WoW. In each of these games I have played a tank, in EQ and EQ to I played a Paladin. In AO I played an Enforcer, WoW I played both a War and a Pally, and here in Vanguard I find myself playing a Pally once again.

Through my many years now of playing MMORPG's and more so playing a tank in each one there is something I have noticed common in each game. When there are more then one tanking profession there seems to become a power struggle. Each class fights for supremacy. Perhapes this is human nature... Though I would like to take the moment to say Vanguard is a new game. We all have the chance to start fresh, and regaurdless of some rocky things going on right now (DrK nerf, War leap attack removed and Pally Blood Oath removed [I notice no one mentioned that pallys too lost a critical spell in agro management]) Vangaurd is off to a pretty good start as far as the general direction tanks are going or were at least ment to go.

I think the best thing we could do is tare down the walls between the communities (Warrior community, DrK community, Paladin community) and unify ourselves as a single community, the Defensive Tank community. I feel by doing this and being both helpful and constructive to each other, and seeking to truthfully try and seek ways of not being the same but being equal we can accomplish much more then in any other game.

~Larsay Faithhealer, High Elf Paladin of Leth Nurae. Thunderhammer

[Gryz]

If you read these forums (or any other Defensive Fighter forums), you will notice that there isn't any fighting between the 3 classes. I think everyone agrees that all 3 classes should be roughly equally strong. Albeit in different situations, and in different ways (to keep each class interesting).

Equal meaning: equal in tanking, equal in dps-ing in offensive stance in groups, equal in soloing, equal in leveling.

Right now, there are too large gaps between the 3 classes. This has been explained by several higher level players, who have longer experience in other games too. I have not seen anyone disagree here (not even the stronger class(es) yell at the weaker class that everything is fine). Maybe the stronger class(es) are afraid of an incoming nerf, and that is why they are less vocal.

I hope Sigil will improve that balance between the 3 classes. So far I'm not impressed.

The defensive fighters seem to be a nice community. The mood is friendlier than the mood on the general forums.

[Naelael]

Speaking as a DK... My feeling is that a pure Warrior should be better in the tanking department by a margin, and DK/Pal should be better in their respective utility departments.

[Lizard]

The way I see it:

Warrior: Pure tankage. Master of holding aggro and mitigating damage.

Paladin: Slightly less good at holding aggro than the warrior. Is equally *effective* as a tank because he buffs the party, enabling them to take down foes faster. Can be a backup healer.

Dark Knight: Slightly less good at holding aggro than the warrior. Is equally *effective* as a tank because he debuffs his opponents, enabling the party to take them down faster. Fears and snares make him backup CC.

Does this seem like a fair breakdown?

[sypher_ffs]

The way I see it:

Warrior: Pure tankage. Master of holding aggro and mitigating damage.

Paladin: Slightly less good at holding aggro than the warrior. Is equally *effective* as a tank because he buffs the party, enabling them to take down foes faster. Can be a backup healer.

Dark Knight: Slightly less good at holding aggro than the warrior. Is equally *effective* as a tank because he debuffs his opponents, enabling the party to take them down faster. Fears and snares make him backup CC.

Does this seem like a fair breakdown?

Each should have equal hate generation, Warrior should be best straight of the Bat, Paladin should be best when he chain rescues, Dread knight should be best when running at DC5 with all debuff on and all proc up. Same as Damage, Warrior dose best DPS straight up at the beginning of the fight, Paladins DPS grows and grows the more he rescues, the Dread Knights DPS should be best when he has DC5 up with all Debuff running.

Thats the way i would like to see it.

[Shawnsan]

From what I have seen. There is NO best tank. Vanguard seems to have gotten that part correct.

Each has things they bring to the table to make them desireable.

A WELL played tank like any other class is a thing to behold.

Poorly played tanks, sadly bring the WHOLE group down almost as much as a POORLY played healer will, thought not quite as much as poorly played dps(they can always be let to die).

[Thanood]

I'd really like to see a game in which there are several tank classes which do equally well. I really hope, VG is such a game. Why should there be only one "real" tank class when there are several damage-dealing and healing classes?

I think from the concept it's well done. For example, melee dps classes do physical damage while casters do magical damage. They can complement each other depending on the encounter. As far as I know, this will also be true for tanks. Love the idea. :)

[kryptonix]

This is how I see the tanks right now.

Warrior - Best at up front hate and mitigating damage. Gets hate through bursts of high DPS.

Paladins - Best group utility and soloability. High chance of survival great back up tanks because of their buffs and healing.

Dreadknights - Best at debuffs. Gets better the longer the fight goes on. Some CC with fear and snare. Can fear kite. High survivability and soloability.

Inquisitor - Supposedly this is the CC tank. Lots of nice spells and some mezzes. IMO gonna be the best pulling class as they will have plate armor and can mez. Might be a cross between a warrior and psionist.

[Ishtavin]

This is how I see the tanks right now.

Warrior - Best at up front hate and mitigating damage. Gets hate through bursts of high DPS.

Paladins - Best group utility and soloability. High chance of survival great back up tanks because of their buffs and healing.

Dreadknights - Best at debuffs. Gets better the longer the fight goes on. Some CC with fear and snare. Can fear kite. High survivability and soloability.

Inquisitor - Supposedly this is the CC tank. Lots of nice spells and some mezzes. IMO gonna be the best pulling class as they will have plate armor and can mez. Might be a cross between a warrior and psionist.


DKs have alot more hate generation than you give credit for, i can pull hate off a warrior at will, i just usually let them tank as they tend to take hits better. But with Provoke and Torture not to mention Hate generating chains we get i can throw down a TON of hate in a short period, as long as i have mana i have hate. Just have to use the skills you get and spec your stats right, im all dex and int with the rest into wisdom/str alternating levels.

[Zeratuul]

DKs have alot more hate generation than you give credit for, i can pull hate off a warrior at will, i just usually let them tank as they tend to take hits better. But with Provoke and Torture not to mention Hate generating chains we get i can throw down a TON of hate in a short period, as long as i have mana i have hate. Just have to use the skills you get and spec your stats right, im all dex and int with the rest into wisdom/str alternating levels.

Ish, very interesting skill spec you have there. I thought about putting some points into INT but never WIS. Do you have any points in CON? What race are you? Also, could you give me a general breakdown of what spells/abilities you cast in what order? Just curious of what other DK's do. Me personally, I pull with devouring strength, then I slap on a torture (reapply when needed), next vexing and malice, provoke again etc...this sound about right?

As for me I'm a Dark Elf, I put all my points into CON and DEX until I reach softcap for level then whatever is leftover I pop into STR.

[Bubbels]

I agree that each tank takes a slightly different approach to being the tank in a group. So far they seem to be rather equal. Havnt seen anyone saying "we really need to get X for a tank".

What I am hoping doesnt happen is that we have a repeat of EQ1 or WoW for that fact. In both those games, with the rare exception, Warriors are king of tanking raid targets.

I would be great to see all tanks interchangeable in the end game.

I guess just wishfull thinking. ;)

[Vaunage]

Inquisitor - Supposedly this is the CC tank. Lots of nice spells and some mezzes. IMO gonna be the best pulling class as they will have plate armor and can mez. Might be a cross between a warrior and psionist.

I love my paladin, but if this is how the Inquisitor turns out, I will definitely give this class a try.

[Iskiab]

I think the classes are pretty well balanced atm with a couple of exceptions. Atm warrior dps in offensive stance is too low now that leap attack has been taken away. I don't solo... ever but it's important for those that do. Palladins need a bit better aggro imo from what I've heard. DKs have problems with their defensive stance from what I've heard but there are upcoming mitigation changes so we'll see what happens.

In a perfect world I'd like to see:

Warrior - best single target tank aggro. best dps out of tanks.
Palladin - good single target tank with rescues. highest mitigation and good group buffs.
DKs - best multiple target tank with better aoe taps and hate. lowest mitigation. best dps ONLY at DK5 which should take a long fight to accomplish.

In this way each tank has a role and place where they specialize. If you're starting an aoe group you look for a DK. If you have a regular group you pick a warrior or palladin with warriors having better hate but palladins having better rescues. In this way each class has a specialization and will be best in different circumstances and most importantly will play differently and be different. Then each kind of tank can fill any role but some are just better then others at certain things.

[Valamir]

tanks can't be balanced in the way many people are proposing...

if you are going to have different mitigation and similar hate you will end up having 1 tank and other def fighters sitting somewhere with lfg tag on or cheering for their comrades during raids (as they are left out :P)

we alredy know this from past MMO where this is quite evident...

if you need a debuffer or utility you are going to get a dps one that will be generally more usefull than a dps...

so i totally agree with sigil idea to give same mit/def to all tanks and then different "utility" specializations so they all can tank equally well.

the class concepts seem pretty good to me atm and, except for things to get fixed in various classes i don't see any need to change that giving to certain classes an overall better mit or hate generation

[Ishtavin]

Ish, very interesting skill spec you have there. I thought about putting some points into INT but never WIS. Do you have any points in CON? What race are you? Also, could you give me a general breakdown of what spells/abilities you cast in what order? Just curious of what other DK's do. Me personally, I pull with devouring strength, then I slap on a torture (reapply when needed), next vexing and malice, provoke again etc...this sound about right?

As for me I'm a Dark Elf, I put all my points into CON and DEX until I reach softcap for level then whatever is leftover I pop into STR.

Im a vulmane, i get a few points of con for my race but otherwise i never pump points into it, i do however use a few con armor pieces.
I forget the exact numbers but Con added each level only adds about 400 hp total at 50, and maybe 30 or so Resists(not enough for me to care to use my atrtrib points on it, gear makes up teh gap).
I use dex for crits and evasion skills, INT adds to the damage torture does and helps provoke as its a spell as well, Wisdom gives me more energy for the longer fights as well as a higher crit rate on ALL spells, so Torture crits more.

As for skills i use, when im tanking i pull with torture to start aggro out on me and it builds, as the mob is running to the group ill land my devouring spells, and then hit provoke, while provoke is on Cooldown ill hit Malice, then vexing strike and then ill use Harrow to help the healer some, i use ravaging darkness at this point as it regens all my End back and builds DC over time, i reapply torture then hit provoke...malice vexing Harrow (RD if its back up) so on and so forth, at 26 my torture hits for 150 ish on a non crit, and with my dex at 220 plus i crit ALOT and use chains when they are up.

P.S. i have put a few points in STR pulling them from wisdom recently due to Block(use to be on dex when game was released). wisdom is 115, int is 130(would be a bit higher but vulmanes are stoopid), and str is in the 160 ish range. Most of my armor is made by me and is either Dex/con, or Str/con.

[Ishtavin]

I think the classes are pretty well balanced atm with a couple of exceptions. Atm warrior dps in offensive stance is too low now that leap attack has been taken away. I don't solo... ever but it's important for those that do. Palladins need a bit better aggro imo from what I've heard. DKs have problems with their defensive stance from what I've heard but there are upcoming mitigation changes so we'll see what happens.

In a perfect world I'd like to see:

Warrior - best single target tank aggro. best dps out of tanks.
Palladin - good single target tank with rescues. highest mitigation and good group buffs.
DKs - best multiple target tank with better aoe taps and hate. lowest mitigation. best dps ONLY at DK5 which should take a long fight to accomplish.

In this way each tank has a role and place where they specialize. If you're starting an aoe group you look for a DK. If you have a regular group you pick a warrior or palladin with warriors having better hate but palladins having better rescues. In this way each class has a specialization and will be best in different circumstances and most importantly will play differently and be different. Then each kind of tank can fill any role but some are just better then others at certain things.

Our AEs generate 0 threat, none. We can use torture on all mobs, and then just cycle provoke but we dont really hold AE aggro better than a warrior, Pally holds Multi Target Agg WAY better than a DK, or the one i goupd with has an easier time of it over all. Just cause it hits alot of mobs dosent mean it does anything but tickle. But DC4 rocks, cant wait for DC5.