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Antioche
03-03-2007, 09:52 AM
~ I really just can't resist, and I know I should.

I was hopping around the boards as I readied myself for the gym this morn, and it occurs to me how interestingly high seems the number of people who will leap onto a post and try to invalidate some malcontents complaint about a "beta release" version of the game with arguments like "you should have done your homework".

Which is another way of saying "Don't pay attention to marketing or claims made on the box."

We'll come back to that very point in a moment, suffice for now to say I am eternally pleased you people don't make a majority of the consumer advocacy laws in existence today.

For my part, so you know where I stand; I held onto EQ and the dying carcass of their pathetic excuse for a role-play server for six years. by the time I stopped playing a month or so ago I had two full-blown accounts *only one character per account on the RP server for those who don't know* One with a 70th cleric, and the other with my main, my mage. I watched more good friends leave that server in the years that have passed than it had people left playing on it when in the days I said my farewells.

So I have abit of experience with taking the good with the bad and learning to keep my mouth shut lest it get filled with something I'd rather not eat.

I plan to..For the most part, do that here as well.
I will continue to play Vanguard, irregardless of the woes my pc has with it's framerate, my characters have with their muddled power-sets or appearances. NPC's can keep their blank stares when I know they should be quest givers, empty rooms clearly listed as you enter as " crafting halls " can stay empty for now and the miles upon miles of vapid wasteland devoid of life or resources. ( No not FOX network, I meant Thestra ) can remain unchanged for the time being.

Why?

Because, I'm a dreamer, I have high hopes for the game, based on multitudes of talks from Brad, sketches from Parkinson, as well as dreams made possible during my youth by people like Gygax, Hickman, and Weiss. I will wait for them to " get it right " as it were, as long as they continue to show progress and hope towards the future they claim is the goal.

I will not however sit and idly listen to people like *insert whatever name here* and their smug little comments like:

"If you don't like the game cancel your subscription and stop whining."

If I were to (politely) and justifiably mention a lack of quality of my cooked meal in a resturaunt, ( Never had to do that ) and you were to overhear from a nearby table and make some-such comment?

I'd tell you where to shove your opinion.

No-one should presume to tell people when to say out loud that they believe they have been slighted.

I personally believe we have entered a new era in consumer marketing, and it is simply following a trend that has been set unfortunatly time and time again.

Does a carmaker tell you the weaknesses in their suspension system next to the MSRP rating on the windshield? Does Ford really make a viable comparison and bare-it-all when they talk about how their new all-wheel drive system is better than Dodges'? Does the 2007 Corvette let you know in its owners manual the level of competition it was REALLY held up against..How it fared vs the best of the best? Not just the ones it beat?

Of course not. I use vehicles here as an example, but it exists everywhere. The pure and simple fact is this

If you are in the market for a minivan, and you listen to the television ads and the car salesman alone...Without doing your OWN research into the vehicle you plan to buy, I hate to say it, but you almost deserve what you get. Yes there are laws in place to protect people from heinous abuse or misrepresentation.

Sigil is guilty of neither.

It does seem a pity however that we need now carry along as much care as we would when shopping for...anything else...Before we buy a game to play.

~ ignore the box, listen to your heart.

~ No ..scratch that...Read the reviews and let a friend try it first.

Atoyota
03-03-2007, 11:26 PM
No ..scratch that...Read the reviews and let a friend try it first.

I tried it in beta, did'nt like it... did't lose a dime, just time. No worries because most of my time was well spent regardless.

Made friends on the forums, learned quite a bit, and still hang out here because in spite of everything I still consider myself a part of the project, or vested in it in some obscure way.

So my friends, and this projects progress are why I continue to troll these boards :eek:

user001
03-04-2007, 12:26 AM
wow, you dont play the game you just hang out and troll the forums.
with over a 1000 posts. dude thats sad.

i hate to say it, but you asked for it.......


GET A LIFE.

Atoyota
03-04-2007, 09:50 AM
wow, you dont play the game you just hang out and troll the forums.
with over a 1000 posts. dude thats sad.

i hate to say it, but you asked for it.......


GET A LIFE.
I have one... laughing at fools like you :D

perfect
03-04-2007, 02:38 PM
I have one... laughing at fools like you :D

What did you call me?

Atoyota
03-04-2007, 02:46 PM
What did you call me?

I would but it'd be long distance :p

user001
03-04-2007, 08:38 PM
I have one... laughing at fools like you :D

yea great life i can see 1700+ post, in a forum of a game you dont even play, sigh. looks you have such a fulfilling life that you have to troll a internet forum :eek:

get a woman, find a game you like, start a drug habit :D

Evan
03-04-2007, 09:56 PM
I like the game, alot. I've stuck with MMO's even when they werent doing great (Earth and Beyond), and MMO's regarded to be "stupid" (EVE). I played UO on Siege Perilous, I played Anarchy Online with a level 95 Agent, and I played WoW to 65.

I'm giving the game time. All the aforementioned games, besides UO, I was in the beta for and played from launch. I know what hardships MMOs endure when they first go live.

Atoyota
03-04-2007, 10:04 PM
yea great life i can see 1700+ post, in a forum of a game you dont even play, sigh. looks you have such a fulfilling life that you have to troll a internet forum :eek:

get a woman, find a game you like, start a drug habit :D

LOL with lines like that? you want me to leave.... ha!

I'd say the vast majority of my pc's were before i got in beta (look at my join date you moron). I'm watching and waiting, to see where this game goes... still.

user001
03-04-2007, 10:14 PM
LOL with lines like that? you want me to leave.... ha!

I'd say the vast majority of my pc's were before i got in beta (look at my join date you moron). I'm watching and waiting, to see where this game goes... still.

what you don't want to take up a drug habit?

anyways you said you were a TROLL, which it seems you really are not. my apologies.

i think we need you to come back to the darkside of vanboism. would you like a buddy key? check out the game for what it is right now, its getting better:)

Atoyota
03-05-2007, 08:28 AM
what you don't want to take up a drug habit?

anyways you said you were a TROLL, which it seems you really are not. my apologies.

i think we need you to come back to the darkside of vanboism. would you like a buddy key? check out the game for what it is right now, its getting better:)

It got way better after i made my decision not to buy. It got better, but not in ways that mattered to me.

I could list here what i liked, what I hated, and what had no impact on my opinion of the game. The only things that needed work were things I liked or that had no impact... the things i hated are still in game and thriving, never having any adjustments neccesary as they were perfectly atrocious in their current state of functionality.

I accept your apology on being a troll and apologise in turn for the moron comment. I don't useually resort to name calling, but i've been on these boards for a while, support Silky, and had been a rabid supporter of Vanguard. Now i do "troll" but for the truth... I want the truth to be advertised and will attack falsehood when i see it. Sometimes this truth takes the form of my tastes in comparison with other games so I can get "grey" now and then... I'm human. But I try to recognise that and be fair in my debates.

As far as trolling in general though, I see this forum as a playground for both Vanboi trolls and Game hater trolls. Sort of like forum PvP. It's entertaining to me sometimes from a physcological perspective, as I have had that interest all of my life. (not in trolls but in understanding people)

The majority of posts i make now are spam in off topic.
In general I can say both good and bad about the game, one never can tell which way I will swing, but you can rest assured it will be reliable, at least from my beta experience, and what I've learned from 2nd hand posted info.

I said i was a troll, but we all are... if you read "and" post, you troll for something to say. That to me is a troll. Bad trolls usually start threads by lighting a match... starting a fire. Vanbois fan the flames. It's all meaningless static for the mods and devs to wade through.

When the genuine posts are made and Vanbois pile on, that's what hurts the game... then that OP will tell his friends or other forums about Vanboi behavior and this reflects on in game community, which only makes matters worse, fosters more bad trolls, and the whole thing feeds on itself.

I'm here because like i said, i put a lot of myself into the old "OVF" and diplomacy, and in that way feel vested in what becomes of this game. I don't like how it turned out, but freely admit that these are my tastes that result in this conclusion. Still I want to see how much of what I suspect may happen will come to pass. Also curious on the handling By Sigil and SOE of the project, how they sell it and try to make it more appealing.

So in short.. just seeing things through. My life, my time, no dime :)

Bregalad
03-05-2007, 03:13 PM
To OP:
You make the mistake of piling different things in one basket. Game criticism can come in various shapes.

1. Constructive. Poster has some idea of what the vision is, has followed game development, and knows the philosophies behind the development of this game. His criticism is usually very specific, backed by examples, and often suggests a solution that (at least to the best of poster's knowledge) agrees with the Vision. In oher words, one can see a player who likes the game, perceives its flaws, and would like for the game to become better. Criticism like that is rarely met with hostility, except by types 2 and 3.

2. Uninformed. Poster shows no regard to game's design philosophy, but he recalls features that originally attracted him to some other game. He wants same features here and refuses to recognize the fact that these very same features are likely what burned him out on his original game. Poster is concerned exclusively with 'the now' with little regard for long-term and makes propositions that display a distinct lack of thinking through.
Posters like that are the prime target for 'go back to WoW' rebuttal.

3. Trolls. You know the type. A kid at the zoo who keeps teasing the animals knowing they are safe behind bars. Well, here you got the online equivalent, who get their high from tossing inflammatory comments that would in RL earn them missing teeth and bloody nose, from the cover of Internet anonymity. The only correct reply is no reply, but the replies you DO see are exactly what the troll is aiming for.

Sure, there are gradations between those. But if you tend to be a type 1 poster, and make good use of the Ignore feature to deal with type 3, you won't have to deal with 'so much venom'

timor
03-05-2007, 09:10 PM
3. Trolls. You know the type. A kid at the zoo who keeps teasing the animals knowing they are safe behind bars. Well, here you got the online equivalent, who get their high from tossing inflammatory comments that would in RL earn them missing teeth and bloody nose, from the cover of Internet anonymity. The only correct reply is no reply, but the replies you DO see are exactly what the troll is aiming for.
'

ok im a forum n00b and it's a real eye opener. Define 'troll' for me? how is your explanation of a 'troll' in any way related to the actual meaning of the word? if you refer to those who use a 'bait' as in 'trolling' i can see that but then you would be a 'troller' not a troll. if you are referring to a 'troll' as some mythical beast like dude with warts then that doesnt seem to fit your description.

Nólaquen
03-05-2007, 10:16 PM
ok im a forum n00b and it's a real eye opener. Define 'troll' for me? how is your explanation of a 'troll' in any way related to the actual meaning of the word? if you refer to those who use a 'bait' as in 'trolling' i can see that but then you would be a 'troller' not a troll. if you are referring to a 'troll' as some mythical beast like dude with warts then that doesnt seem to fit your description.
I think it actually came from a combination of the two. Trolling is the original form of its use to describe what people were doing, whereas use of the term "troll" came to put a name to the people themselves, derived from the word "trolling", but with the connotation of a bug ugly often-dumb monster swinging around a big club that nobody likes. That's my theory anyway.

Edit: Ahhh, wikipedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28internet%29#Etymology

Atoyota
03-06-2007, 06:41 AM
I think it actually came from a combination of the two. Trolling is the original form of its use to describe what people were doing, whereas use of the term "troll" came to put a name to the people themselves, derived from the word "trolling", but with the connotation of a bug ugly often-dumb monster swinging around a big club that nobody likes. That's my theory anyway.

Edit: Ahhh, wikipedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28internet%29#Etymology

yeah I was'nt sure of the word origins either, but kinda of made the connection to both as well...

To troll = to bait people
To be a troll = clobbering people in forums (text attack)

So you can do one without the other, or if you are really good you can do both. The sorry trolls just bait and leave, the good ones bait then clobber.

Everyone at some point in forums, exspecially if you post a lot, has trolled or been a troll at some point.

Forums only harm or are hurtful if you take them seriously.
Simple thing to remember is the "sticks and stones" saying... which is fairly true because the truely obnoxious hate words and obsenities are prohibited in most forums.

Most attacks are just opinion disguised as intellectual attacks, and even if they are valid... "sticks and stones" or... who cares? Because what is said on forums has very little to do with real life, well in most cases...