View Full Version : Why are rogues getting there dmg nerfed next patch when their still not = to rangers?
Title says it all, rogues are suppose to have more dmg than rangers. Yet atm they have less. To fix this requires either a rogue buff or ranger nerf, not a rogue nerf.
Guess rogues were getting to close to ranger dmg so they had to nerf them down.
Astery
03-04-2007, 02:49 AM
Title says it all, rogues are suppose to have more dmg than rangers. Yet atm they have less. To fix this requires either a rogue buff or ranger nerf, not a rogue nerf.
Guess rogues were getting to close to ranger dmg so they had to nerf them down.
yes, time to reroll my rogue soon for a ranger LOL
displacer69
03-04-2007, 08:51 AM
hey is this for real? i just started a rogue and was kind of liking it. If this is going to happen i guess i will have to find something else to get interested in:<
Vioche
03-04-2007, 09:20 AM
Title says it all, rogues are suppose to have more dmg than rangers. Yet atm they have less. To fix this requires either a rogue buff or ranger nerf, not a rogue nerf.
Guess rogues were getting to close to ranger dmg so they had to nerf them down.
well we are getting our poisons redone.. maybe the poisons will up our dmg alot(hope so)
Gorly
03-04-2007, 07:10 PM
well we are getting our poisons redone.. maybe the poisons will up our dmg alot(hope so)
I guess the problem in that is that rogue and ranger equipment investments are going to be roughly equal, but does the cost of poisons match the cost of arrows? Seems to me this could end up being a lot like EQ was in regards to rogue damage in the beginning.
I played a blood mage to 20 and decided to try a rogue since I never saw any around, and *never* grouped with one out of the couple dozen groups I've been in. Turns out I like the class, but my observation has been that I see the other light fighters actually soloing stuff atm I could only wish for, specifically single pull group mobs.
What's the deal too with rangers getting sneak/hide, decent ranged damage, actual useful buffs, etc.. I suppose it doesn't matter in the end, but rogues really seem to come up on the short end of the stick when you try to compare them. Poisons might make up for it, but there again the time and investment involved in comparison still could put it out of parity.
Tarikko
03-04-2007, 11:26 PM
I think because rogues damage is positional, it should be the greatest of all melee dmg. This is bad juju.. i love rogues and they are so rare.
I seriously get about 2-3 rangers asking for a group when i start one, and rarely find rogues/monks. (its just because rangers are a complete and fun class, not because they need to be nerfed)
this goes hadn in hand with the monk fist nerf (completely diff subject) and my thoughts on that are if every monk was using fists in raid because there were NO weapons that could even compete (which is how it was shaping up) then monks and itemization would be bland (nothing to look forward to). I would love to see monks running around with fistwraps of fire :P
I'm a tank however (former bard) and I have my own issues to worry about. ie. 15s to repair after a group that lasts 2 hours/ a 15 minute cooldown special that does 900 dmg at level 28 woooooooo etc etc etc etc
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 01:32 PM
(its just because rangers are a complete and fun class, not because they need to be nerfed)
This and the post above you are extremely uneducated about the ranger class. We don't get tons of utility (in theory we do but barely any of it actually works) and we aren't a finished class. Over half of our skills are near useless. What we do is tons of damage and if we didn't do that we'd never get groups as the class stands. Please, please, play a class for awhile before you talk about how good, finished, polished, w/e it is.
That being said Rangers are extremely fun to play but not finished in any sense of the word.
Zippalbit
03-05-2007, 01:54 PM
Title says it all, rogues are suppose to have more dmg than rangers. Yet atm they have less. To fix this requires either a rogue buff or ranger nerf, not a rogue nerf.
Guess rogues were getting to close to ranger dmg so they had to nerf them down.
Guess you don't know how to play rogues, I regularly outdo rangers with my rogue...
DCpunk
03-05-2007, 02:09 PM
My guess would be because rangers are next.
Soluss
03-05-2007, 03:49 PM
According to the info we recieved from devs, when I say we I mean monks, rogues are currently the highest dps. Now I am no way saying you deserve a nerf. I am jut giving you the numbers quote that we(monks) recieved from development. This is a quote giving to us by our(monks) class lead, that was given to him from development.....How accurate it is, I do not know. It was supposedly straight from development. It does seem pretty close to what I have been seeing in game though.
DPS Numbers are in and we came in 3rd. Rogue->Ranger->(Vast Chasam of DPS)-> Monk -> Bard. The DPS issue is being worked on as they will turn up the dmg knob for us.
Calibix
03-05-2007, 04:38 PM
This and the post above you are extremely uneducated about the ranger class. We don't get tons of utility (in theory we do but barely any of it actually works) and we aren't a finished class. Over half of our skills are near useless. What we do is tons of damage and if we didn't do that we'd never get groups as the class stands. Please, please, play a class for awhile before you talk about how good, finished, polished, w/e it is.
That being said Rangers are extremely fun to play but not finished in any sense of the word.
What utility doesn't work? Stalker's grace is one of the best, if not the best, melee buff in the game. You get a really nice runspeed buff. You get a damage shield. You get snares. And I'm pretty sure some of your attacks debuff as well. Oh, and you are number 1 dps right now. Give me a break. Rangers are so the pwn it's not even funny. Even if (hopefully when) ranger damage gets nerfed, they would still be a highly desirable class to group with (at least imo)
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 05:06 PM
What utility doesn't work? Stalker's grace is one of the best, if not the best, melee buff in the game.
Yes stalkers grace works.
You get a really nice runspeed buff.
It's not really nice and it's not very useful especially in group situations where you typically don't want to run fast as hell for fear of aggroing mobs. It works? Yes. It's cool to have? Yes. Is it super cool zomg pwn? Far from it.
You get a damage shield.
Which doesn't really work.
You get snares.
Which get resisted constantly.
And I'm pretty sure some of your attacks debuff as well.
Cripple does a minor debuff nothing to gawk at.
Oh, and you are number 1 dps right now. Give me a break. Rangers are so the pwn it's not even funny. Even if (hopefully when) ranger damage gets nerfed, they would still be a highly desirable class to group with (at least imo)
Your opinion is pretty worthless because you obviously haven't played a ranger past even level 20. We DPS and that's about it in group situations.
Our ranged CAoE doesn't work right. Our calm/lull doesn't work. Our tame gets resisted constantly and has such a long cooldown that we can't retame a mob so it just means in 45 seconds we have add. Charms/mez from the many classes that have them are far better and I've never, ever, been asked to do any crowd control in a group situation. Ever. Our heal has been nerfed into the plane of near uselessness. Our pet is the definition of worthless. We have an assortment of worthless cloaks/talismans that just don't compare to one of our cloaks/talismans (thorn to winter for example). We have a 2 second stun on a one hour cooldown (that's a lifesaver m i rite?). Our DoTs and Chain abilities (swelter etc) get resisted constantly. The list goes on. Please learn what you're talking about before you talk about it.
Oh yea and I've yet to find something cure actually cures.
Guess you don't know how to play rogues, I regularly outdo rangers with my rogue...
The rangers you play with suck then. As all the rangers in my guild out dps all the rogues in my guild. At high lvls it's no contest really. They get like 4, 2500+ DoTs whereas rogues get like 3 1k dots. They also have twice as many DD and 4x the utility.
My best friends are a ranger, monk, and bard. We run in 4 all the time and can take out 4 dots with relative ease. Sometimes we even have a disciple, but he doesn't log on as much as he used to.
Trust me, when it comes to dmg, rangers are by far the best, when it comes to utility they are about even with bards. How is it fair for the class that has the least utililty of the offensive fighters to not even do = dmg to that of rangers. If you think comparing a rogue to ranger is bad, try comparing a monk to a ranger.
Rangers have been probobly the best class in the game ever since beta 3 and have really never recieved a real nerf.
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 05:15 PM
The rangers you play with suck then. As all the rangers in my guild out dps all the rogues in my guild. At high lvls it's no contest really. They get like 4, 2500+ DoTs whereas rogues get like 3 1k dots. They also have twice as many DD and 4x the utility.
My best friends are a ranger, monk, and bard. We run in 4 all the time and can take out 4 dots with relative ease. Sometimes we even have a disciple, but he doesn't log on as much as he used to.
Trust me, when it comes to dmg, rangers are by far the best, when it comes to utility they are about even with bards. How is it fair for the class that has the least utililty of the offensive fighters to not even do = dmg to that of rangers. If you think comparing a rogue to ranger is bad, try comparing a monk to a ranger.
Rangers have been probobly the best class in the game ever since beta 3 and have really never recieved a real nerf.We do not have near the utility of bards this is utter bs. We have a buff, and a run speed buff (not anywhere ****ing near a bard RS buff). Bards have cloud walk, great dmg/regen songs etc, group insivis, group speed etc. Please stop lying.
If you whiners think Rangers are so amazing be my guest and play one. When you stop caring about training because it's just an upgrade to another broken skill we'll see how wonderfuly perfect you think we are then.
Calibix
03-05-2007, 05:32 PM
Yes stalkers grace works.
It's not really nice and it's not very useful especially in group situations where you typically don't want to run fast as hell for fear of aggroing mobs. It works? Yes. It's cool to have? Yes. Is it super cool zomg pwn? Far from it.
Why wouldn't you want run speed in a group. Running faster has no connection with agroing mobs. That's just player stupidity (run like Magank!!). Furthermore, you probably don't see the benefit of a runspeed buff since you always have it. Go roll an alt that doesn't get a runspeed and I gaurantee you miss it. Furthermore, your runspeed buff is faster than SoW. YEah, not nice at all, i see your point....
Which doesn't really work.
How doesn't it work. You get hit. It deals damage to the mob. Seems like it works to me.
Which get resisted constantly.
Nonetheless, you still have it available if you needed it. And I thought they were adjusting resists soon, so maybe that will help /shrug
Cripple does a minor debuff nothing to gawk at.
Better than nothing at all, like my class (dragon monk)
Your opinion is pretty worthless because you obviously haven't played a ranger past even level 20. We DPS and that's about it in group situations.
My opinion is not worthless when it comes to rangers, considering I've played the last 40 levels grouped with a ranger. Our conversation is almost always related to abilities and gear
Our ranged CAoE doesn't work right. Our calm/lull doesn't work. Our tame gets resisted constantly and has such a long cooldown that we can't retame a mob so it just means in 45 seconds we have add. Charms/mez from the many classes that have them are far better and I've never, ever, been asked to do any crowd control in a group situation. Ever. Our heal has been nerfed into the plane of near uselessness. Our pet is the definition of worthless. We have an assortment of worthless cloaks/talismans that just don't compare to one of our cloaks/talismans (thorn to winter for example). We have a 2 second stun on a one hour cooldown (that's a lifesaver m i rite?). Our DoTs and Chain abilities (swelter etc) get resisted constantly. The list goes on. Please learn what you're talking about before you talk about it.
/cry Despite all that your still the number 1 dps class period. Imagine how your class will be when they fix your abilities. Even if they fixed my dragon monks broken abilities, we couldn't come close to matching a ranger in dps or utility.
Oh yea and I've yet to find something cure actually cures.
Sure ranger utility < bard utility. I'll agree with you there. But, Ranger dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is always someone in every class who thinks they are underpowered, even when it's blatantly obvious to everyone else in the community that that isn't the case. You sir, are one of those people. Everyone knows rangers are freaking awesome atm, except for you
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 05:41 PM
Sure ranger utility < bard utility. I'll agree with you there. But, Ranger dps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all.
The point I'm trying to make is that there is always someone in every class who thinks they are underpowered, even when it's blatantly obvious to everyone else in the community that that isn't the case. You sir, are one of those people. Everyone knows rangers are freaking awesome atm, except for you
I don't think we're underpowered. I know that half of our ****ing skills don't work and if you won't listen to a ranger then you're just a brickwall. Feel free to visit vgrangers and browse for threads saying the exact same thing I am. The truthful version of what you said is that "people who don't play a class always swear they know everything about it." You sir are one of those people.
Why wouldn't you want run speed in a group. Running faster has no connection with agroing mobs. That's just player stupidity (run like Magank!!). Furthermore, you probably don't see the benefit of a runspeed buff since you always have it. Go roll an alt that doesn't get a runspeed and I gaurantee you miss it.
Umm 80% of the playerbase has pretty terrible fps/hitching in groups and running faster isn't really a good thing when there are mobs everywhere. I've been playing since beta and have played most of the classes to at least 18-20. I am well aware of what not having a run speed buff is like. Continue making assumptions to support your ignorant preconceived opinions instead of listening though!
How doesn't it work. You get hit. It deals damage to the mob. Seems like it works to me.
It randomly works and it randomly doesn't. As I said you have no idea what you're talking about.
Nonetheless, you still have it available if you needed it. And I thought they were adjusting resists soon, so maybe that will help /shrug
Oh so simply having a skill is good enough whether it works or not? I believe I addressed this in my original post. We have utility out of the ass in theory. In reality, not so much. This is really going to be my last response to you because you're obviously abysmally f'in hardheaded.
Better than nothing at all, like my class (dragon monk)
and your point is? My pet is better than your pet too considering you don't have one. Doesn't mean it's good. Logic 101. Be there or be square.
My opinion is not worthless when it comes to rangers, considering I've played the last 40 levels grouped with a ranger. Our conversation is almost always related to abilities and gear
Feel free to play one yourself. You're talking to a ranger, about rangers, and you're almost completely wrong. You telling me you know what you're talking about isn't going to counter the fact that you obviously do not.
/cry Despite all that your still the number 1 dps class period. Imagine how your class will be when they fix your abilities. Even if they fixed my dragon monks broken abilities, we couldn't come close to matching a ranger in dps or utility.
Yea we do a lot of dps I said we do. It's also pretty much the only thing we do. As for your /cry blow me until you can think of a real argument. Over 50% of our skills are useless or don't work. If you think Rangers are amazing then play one. Until then shush tard. Complain about how broken your class is all you want but keep my class out of it until you actually know what you're talking about.
Calibix
03-05-2007, 06:07 PM
I don't think we're underpowered. I know that half of our ****ing skills don't work and if you won't listen to a ranger then you're just a brickwall. Feel free to visit vgrangers and browse for threads saying the exact same thing I am. The truthful version of what you said is that "people who don't play a class always swear they know everything about it." You sir are one of those people.
I never claimed to know everything about your class. If you notice in my prior posts, I was using phrasing such as "i think you get debuffs" Secondly, do you think your the only class who has skills that are broken. You sir, are just a whiner.
Umm 80% of the playerbase has pretty terrible fps/hitching in groups and running faster isn't really a good thing when there are mobs everywhere. I've been playing since beta and have played most of the classes to at least 18-20. I am well aware of what not having a run speed buff is like. Continue making assumptions to support your ignorant preconceived opinions instead of listening though!
Please enlighten me to what assumption was made. Umm, I get hitching too, and I don't run like a noob into mobs. Yes, it's possible to tap the movement keys, they don't need to be held!! ZOMG, I played beta also, and played a bunch of alts too!! What is your point!
It randomly works and it randomly doesn't. As I said you have no idea what you're talking about.
Yes I have no idea when, ranger buffs me, I get hit, combat log says your damage shield does damage to mob. I get hit again, it says the same thing. another hit, another damage. Pure craziness, what was I thinking...
Oh so simply having a skill is good enough whether it works or not? I believe I addressed this in my original post. We have utility out of the ass in theory. In reality, not so much. This is really going to be my last response to you because you're obviously abysmally f'in hardheaded.
Yes, when the other option is of not having the abillity at all. And once again, rangers aren't the only class with broken abilities. Please respond again, maybe you could soften my hard noggin?
and your point is? My pet is better than your pet too considering you don't have one. Doesn't mean it's good. Logic 101. Be there or be square.
You are perfectly correct, just because you have it doesn't mean its good. But it's still better than having nothing at all. Logic 201?
Feel free to play one yourself. You're talking to a ranger, about rangers, and you're almost completely wrong. You telling me you know what you're talking about isn't going to counter the fact that you obviously do not.
Pretty sure I've been pretty accurate about what I've said about rangers. I made it a point to only comment on the facets of rangerism that I can learn/observe from playing with a very good ranger, thus to avoid any inaccuracies in my arguements. Furthermore, I wouldn't play a ranger for two reasons. 1) The ranger is the favorite child of Vangaurd, which is no secret. Thus, they will always be one of the most played classes. (and /gasp, overpowered?!) 2) A class that has the most players inherently has the most stupid people posting on their particular forum/s. Whereas a class like monk, that is not highly played, you will only see people that truly want to play, and care about that class making posts. You get your morons there too, but not nearly as much as say a ranger would have to sift through.
Yea we do a lot of dps I said we do. It's also pretty much the only thing we do. As for your /cry blow me until you can think of a real argument. Over 50% of our skills are useless or don't work. If you think Rangers are amazing then play one. Until then shush tard. Complain about how broken your class is all you want but keep my class out of it until you actually know what you're talking about.
I do complain about my broken class regularly actually. Go look around, you'll see my posts. And I never really said anything about rangers, than to say that they do, imo, have some decent utility and excellent dps. And, according to you, over 50% of ranger skills are useless or don't work, yet they still have excellent dps and decent utility. /cry /cry /cry /wollowinsorrowathowcrappyrangersare
The term used to describe you, as a fellow monk poster and I have decided is:
Rangfanboier.
Mustang68
03-05-2007, 06:40 PM
Well, all this silly talk about rangers gets tiresome. This is what I would guess is the case:
Rangers are the best dps if they get off there critical ranged shot. And they should be because their meleeing and ability to take damage is mediocre. Rogues are right up there now, and highest dps if they get off their initial stealth attack and work some of their positional attacks in. And they should be. Monks are a bit low right now and need some evade/dodge love so they can melee better. They should be the best melee dps out of all the classes but behind rogues and rangers when the rogues and rangers get their situational attacks off. Bards CLEARLY have the most utility, but their dps could probably stand to be upped a bit too.
This whole conversation is silly with everyone throwing around supposed facts like little kids. Everything is so dependent on gear and how a person plays a character that we can only deal with generalizations. NOT FACTS. However, I'll give a nod towhat the developer is saying at this point since they have the most knowledge. Rogues -> Rangers -> Monks -> Bards.
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 07:00 PM
Well, all this silly talk about rangers gets tiresome. This is what I would guess is the case:
Rangers are the best dps if they get off there critical ranged shot. And they should be because their meleeing and ability to take damage is mediocre. Rogues are right up there now, and highest dps if they get off their initial stealth attack and work some of their positional attacks in. And they should be. Monks are a bit low right now and need some evade/dodge love so they can melee better. They should be the best melee dps out of all the classes but behind rogues and rangers when the rogues and rangers get their situational attacks off. Bards CLEARLY have the most utility, but their dps could probably stand to be upped a bit too.
This whole conversation is silly with everyone throwing around supposed facts like little kids. Everything is so dependent on gear and how a person plays a character that we can only deal with generalizations. NOT FACTS. However, I'll give a nod towhat the developer is saying at this point since they have the most knowledge. Rogues -> Rangers -> Monks -> Bards.
The conversation isn't silly. Rangers do fine DPS and I've said this the entire time. He just swears he knows what he's talking about and is hilariously wrong about pretty much everything. Skill flat out not working has nothing to do with gear or how you play a character. Broken and useless skills are facts. Most of them are acknowledge by the devs for crying out loud. Anyone who thinks rangers are complete has never played a ranger past 20. End of story.
Now I will leave this thread since the disabled is still spouting retardation.
The conversation isn't silly. Rangers do fine DPS and I've said this the entire time. He just swears he knows what he's talking about and is hilariously wrong about pretty much everything. Skill flat out not working has nothing to do with gear or how you play a character. Broken and useless skills are facts. Most of them are acknowledge by the devs for crying out loud. Anyone who thinks rangers are complete has never played a ranger past 20. End of story.
Now I will leave this thread since the disabled is still spouting retardation.
Well if rangers already have the best dps and second best utility of the light fighters, and they are only 45% as effective as the developers intended them to be (more than 50% of their stuff is broken), does this mean they will be twice as overpowered as they already are?
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 08:18 PM
Well if rangers already have the best dps and second best utility of the light fighters, and they are only 45% as effective as the developers intended them to be (more than 50% of their stuff is broken), does this mean they will be twice as overpowered as they already are?
We don't have the best DPS but we do have good DPS. Our DPS is extremely streaky and can be amazing one second and terrible for the next minute. People just think we have the best DPS because our opening combo can be pretty brutal if everything lands (and we get the crits needed to continue it fully) but they don't realize that if a mob outlast that combo (which most do in group situations and solo if they higher level) our DPS is very very streaky like I said. As for Utility we have a runspeed and dex/con buff. Not much utility imo. The only thing we can do that I think really is nice is off-tanking with parry but with so much CC it's usually not even needed.
Like I've said a million times anyone who thinks Rangers are finished , and I'll add this, or overpowered hasn't actually played one past 20. So far my theory has proven true.
ZNICK
03-05-2007, 08:19 PM
What utility doesn't work? Stalker's grace is one of the best, if not the best, melee buff in the game. You get a really nice runspeed buff. You get a damage shield. You get snares. And I'm pretty sure some of your attacks debuff as well. Oh, and you are number 1 dps right now. Give me a break. Rangers are so the pwn it's not even funny. Even if (hopefully when) ranger damage gets nerfed, they would still be a highly desirable class to group with (at least imo)
Oh my God! I just laughed my milk through my nose reading this. It's so wrong it's laughable.
Ranger snare does not work, EVER, on ANYTHING. Period. We get a damage shield that breaks rooted mobs. Stalkers Grace, a level 3 (or maybe 4-5) buff is "the best melee buff in the game"? Thats ridiculous, lol. The runspeed buff is the same as 5 other classes, and MUCH slower than bard, shaman, etc etc.
As far as #1 DPS, you must be playing a diffferent game! Yes, we do great burst damage, but after the 1st 5-6 seconds, we're weak. Yesterday I was fighting a 3 dot that was 2 levels BELOW me. After my burst damage I was at 80% health, he was at 50%. He KILLED me because once we blow our initial wad, we're through. We don't suck, but don't even BEGIN to think we have the best DPS in the game. A properly played rogue, with the recent changes, outdamages us greatly... because he can continue to dish out high damage. Once we use our bow crit, unless we get very lucky and crit a lot, we're very bland in damage output. If we "miss" with our opening shot, or it don't crit, we're in trouble.
Rangers have been probobly the best class in the game ever since beta 3 and have really never recieved a real nerf.
Spoken like a guy who's never played a ranger, lol. The grass is always greener, eh. I imagine you feel your class should be boosted, right?
In any case, a Ranger doesn't suck... but it's far from ub3r, or the best DPS in the game. Sure, 1 of 50 opening bow shots is enough to make someone say "WOW", but you can't make sweeping comments without taking into consideration that most of our utility is broken, we miss a LOT, we're out of endurance in 3-4 swings, we take HUGE damage if we are in our "offensive" stance, etc etc etc.
A ranger IS a fun class, but so is every other class. We're not in the bottom, but we're far from "the best dps class", LOL! In DPS I'd say we're in the middle of the pack. Sorcerors blow us away, so do druids and other casters. Our weaknesses certainly make it so we deserve decent burst dps, but we cannot keep it up more than a few seconds.
Please play one before coming on here making sweeping comments. :rolleyes:
Z
So what parsers are you guys using to draw all these conclusions? All I see are a lot of bold statements without any backing whatsoever.
Oh yeah, every offensive fighter's dps sucks when they don't crit and that ranger crit buff IS one of the best melee buffs in game second only to endurance regen. Bottom line is, this nerf is pretty unnecessary unless they greatly increase the effectiveness of poisons.
First time I answer a thread like this but this one seems fun.
First yes I am a ranger.
Yes as I see it we do the best both burst and sustained dps right now.
I have no clue of what some of the rangers here are so upset about, yes most of our utility abilities are either broken or doesn't work the way they should but still we are second in utility after bards. I dunno about other rangers but I sure as hell dont only dps in groups. I root (1 acctually works), I heal (minor, but a small heal on the healer can reduce healing aggro for him/her), I offtank (especially in aoe situations where our aoe chain does alot of dmg and can save the sorc from some aggro).
So those rangers who are claiming that we lack utility due to some of our broken abilities are complete liars. Find other ways to be of utility then! We have a lot of useful abilities at our hands that can work wonders combined and in different situations.
The thing is, rangers even though we aren't totally finished we are the most complete class in the game and I hope all other classes get to our lvl as soon as possible.
Enjoy.
We don't have the best DPS but we do have good DPS. Our DPS is extremely streaky and can be amazing one second and terrible for the next minute. People just think we have the best DPS because our opening combo can be pretty brutal if everything lands (and we get the crits needed to continue it fully) but they don't realize that if a mob outlast that combo (which most do in group situations and solo if they higher level) our DPS is very very streaky like I said. As for Utility we have a runspeed and dex/con buff. Not much utility imo. The only thing we can do that I think really is nice is off-tanking with parry but with so much CC it's usually not even needed.
Like I've said a million times anyone who thinks Rangers are finished , and I'll add this, or overpowered hasn't actually played one past 20. So far my theory has proven true.
I wasn't even talking about rogues and there extreme burst dps. Yes rangers can hang with the best on burst dps, but there staple is sustained DPS. Once you get into the higher lvls, it becomes impossible to keep up with the multiple 2k+ dots they have.
And to the guy asking about parsers, I use one called Parse this, yes, it's very primative, but it works. You can find it on the safehouse forums.
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 10:38 PM
First time I answer a thread like this but this one seems fun.
First yes I am a ranger.
Yes as I see it we do the best both burst and sustained dps right now.
I have no clue of what some of the rangers here are so upset about, yes most of our utility abilities are either broken or doesn't work the way they should but still we are second in utility after bards. I dunno about other rangers but I sure as hell dont only dps in groups. I root (1 acctually works), I heal (minor, but a small heal on the healer can reduce healing aggro for him/her), I offtank (especially in aoe situations where our aoe chain does alot of dmg and can save the sorc from some aggro).
So those rangers who are claiming that we lack utility due to some of our broken abilities are complete liars. Find other ways to be of utility then! We have a lot of useful abilities at our hands that can work wonders combined and in different situations.
The thing is, rangers even though we aren't totally finished we are the most complete class in the game and I hope all other classes get to our lvl as soon as possible.
Enjoy.Off-tanking is the only real utility we bring to a group. Yea rooting is awesome until you eventually go to fight the mob and it's built an insane amount of hate towards your healer because while rooted it's still active. Please name these amazing abilities we have that are anywhere near practical or hell even reliable. After that name some that aren't completely overshadowed by their caster or bard counterpart.
Mustang68
03-05-2007, 11:24 PM
First time I answer a thread like this but this one seems fun.
First yes I am a ranger.
Yes as I see it we do the best both burst and sustained dps right now.
Well, this disagrees with the developers. Maybe my trust is misfounded, but they must be seeing something.
Oh my God! I just laughed my milk through my nose reading this. It's so wrong it's laughable.
Ranger snare does not work, EVER, on ANYTHING. Period. We get a damage shield that breaks rooted mobs. Stalkers Grace, a level 3 (or maybe 4-5) buff is "the best melee buff in the game"? Thats ridiculous, lol. The runspeed buff is the same as 5 other classes, and MUCH slower than bard, shaman, etc etc.
As far as #1 DPS, you must be playing a diffferent game! Yes, we do great burst damage, but after the 1st 5-6 seconds, we're weak. Yesterday I was fighting a 3 dot that was 2 levels BELOW me. After my burst damage I was at 80% health, he was at 50%. He KILLED me because once we blow our initial wad, we're through. We don't suck, but don't even BEGIN to think we have the best DPS in the game. A properly played rogue, with the recent changes, outdamages us greatly... because he can continue to dish out high damage. Once we use our bow crit, unless we get very lucky and crit a lot, we're very bland in damage output. If we "miss" with our opening shot, or it don't crit, we're in trouble.
Spoken like a guy who's never played a ranger, lol. The grass is always greener, eh. I imagine you feel your class should be boosted, right?
In any case, a Ranger doesn't suck... but it's far from ub3r, or the best DPS in the game. Sure, 1 of 50 opening bow shots is enough to make someone say "WOW", but you can't make sweeping comments without taking into consideration that most of our utility is broken, we miss a LOT, we're out of endurance in 3-4 swings, we take HUGE damage if we are in our "offensive" stance, etc etc etc.
A ranger IS a fun class, but so is every other class. We're not in the bottom, but we're far from "the best dps class", LOL! In DPS I'd say we're in the middle of the pack. Sorcerors blow us away, so do druids and other casters. Our weaknesses certainly make it so we deserve decent burst dps, but we cannot keep it up more than a few seconds.
Please play one before coming on here making sweeping comments. :rolleyes:
Z
I may not be all over your tone of voice, but I understand a lot of what you're saying and have had the same experience in combat. The snare is about as useless as it gets, and on top of the things you mentioned, the casting time doesn't help its utility. I think dps is very streaky for these classes which makes it VERY hard to compare the dps of offensive fighters.
Ya'll are still missing the point of the thread.
The DPS rankings have rangers and rogues way ahead of the pack, which shouldn't be. They could have fixed this by lowering rogue AND ranger dps, or by raising monk/bard dps. Instead, they are only lowering rogue dps and leaving the class that was the most overpowered to begin with (and has been overpowered ever since like beta 3) alone.
ATM it looks like this
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
after the patch it will be,
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
Is it really the intent for rangers to be leaps and bound ahead of everyone in DPS and almost equal to bard utility (especially once the bugs get fixed)? Why do rangers always get to be the kings of all areas? Why do they get to be best at everything and worst at nothing?
The developer intent was
DPS (short fights)
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Bard
DPS (long fights)
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
So can you explain to me why rogues, who have less DPS (burst or sustained), and way less utility, deserve a nerf and rangers don't?
Iwantthisgame
03-05-2007, 11:57 PM
Ya'll are still missing the point of the thread.
The DPS rankings have rangers and rogues way ahead of the pack, which shouldn't be. They could have fixed this by lowering rogue AND ranger dps, or by raising monk/bard dps. Instead, they are only lowering rogue dps and leaving the class that was the most overpowered to begin with (and has been overpowered ever since like beta 3) alone.
ATM it looks like this
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
after the patch it will be,
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
Is it really the intent for rangers to be leaps and bound ahead of everyone in DPS and almost equal to bard utility (especially once the bugs get fixed)? Why do rangers always get to be the kings of all areas? Why do they get to be best at everything and worst at nothing?
The developer intent was
DPS (short fights)
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Bard
DPS (long fights)
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
So can you explain to me why rogues, who have less DPS (burst or sustained), and way less utility, deserve a nerf and rangers don't?
All the rogues I know personally claim to outdps me so I don't know what to tell you as I don't play one. All I can say is they don't need to nerf Rangers and calling for a Ranger nerf is completely ridiculous as anyone who has played a Ranger can tell you.
Nikisha
03-06-2007, 12:32 AM
Ok as a rogue now 27th and i have played a monk and ranger to lvl 10. I duo with a ranger 26th with almost the exact same gear as me and weapons on par with mine. So I have a good feel for how things are between us. This is how it seems to me.
Opening burst the ranger out does me by a noticible amount. Now in the perfect situtation I do think i out dps my ranger friend. By perfect I mean.
1) I have stalk maxed at the start of the fight and can stay in it the whole fight.
2) I am behind the mob and have a tank that can hold agro so i can stay behind it.
Now when the fight first starts he seems to almost always out dps me, but as the fight wears on I start doing more dps than him. Not much but some and enough that I think over all we do the highest dmg.
Against weaker mobs 2 and 3 dots they don't live long enough. Now the other major problem is in groups against 4 and 5 dots you rare can stay in stealth for long periods of time. To many mobs have AoE's or dmg shields both of which break stealth and then you have to smoke trick(which means we don't use a attack which lowers our dps) and then it gets broke again during the fight anyways. Far far to many 4 and 5 dot mobs have one or the other of these. Another problem is a tank not holding agro and the mob turns at the wrong time we lose a chunk of dps.
Now the truth is I would be fine with this as we are slightly the best in the perfect situation, if only AoE's and dmg shields didn't break stealth. not saying rangers dmg should be nerfed at all, just that our stealth needs fixed. Cause when I can't stay in stealth the ranger out dps's me and he can do it from any position.
Solo ability.... well lets not even go there. i am fine with rogues being the bottom or near bottom at solo, as long as we are one of the best group classes since we need special circumstances for our dps. I do think monks need dps uped some and def, not to where it was but higher than where it is now. I think each of the 4 should shine in there area and to me it should be
Situational DPS
Rogues
Rangers
Monks
Bards
Standered DPS(or not in perfect positions)
Rangers
Monks
Rogues
Bards
Utility
Bards
Rangers
Rogues
Monks(these two should be roughly equal here honestly)
Off Tanking
Monk
Ranger
Bard
Rogue
If the above was true each class would shine in it's own way and be desirable for what it was good at. Now as for the original actual topic of this thread i am concerned by the reduction in our dps coming. Since I feel we barely out dps rangers as it is and offer less utility and off tank much worse. But our class is not nearly done. We still got poisons coming and that might up our utility and dps noticeable and be easy to get. Will just have to wait and see on that regard.
I do hope all the classes get fixed and get a chance to shine in there own way. I am like many gunshy about reductions, to many games way overdo it when they reduce stuff aka nerf if you like that word.
Mustang68
03-06-2007, 12:37 AM
Ok as a rogue now 27th and i have played a monk and ranger to lvl 10. I duo with a ranger 26th with almost the exact same gear as me and weapons on par with mine. So I have a good feel for how things are between us. This is how it seems to me.
Opening burst the ranger out does me by a noticible amount. Now in the perfect situtation I do think i out dps my ranger friend. By perfect I mean.
1) I have stalk maxed at the start of the fight and can stay in it the whole fight.
2) I am behind the mob and have a tank that can hold agro so i can stay behind it.
Now when the fight first starts he seems to almost always out dps me, but as the fight wears on I start doing more dps than him. Not much but some and enough that I think over all we do the highest dmg.
Against weaker mobs 2 and 3 dots they don't live long enough. Now the other major problem is in groups against 4 and 5 dots you rare can stay in stealth for long periods of time. To many mobs have AoE's or dmg shields both of which break stealth and then you have to smoke trick(which means we don't use a attack which lowers our dps) and then it gets broke again during the fight anyways. Far far to many 4 and 5 dot mobs have one or the other of these. Another problem is a tank not holding agro and the mob turns at the wrong time we lose a chunk of dps.
Now the truth is I would be fine with this as we are slightly the best in the perfect situation, if only AoE's and dmg shields didn't break stealth. not saying rangers dmg should be nerfed at all, just that our stealth needs fixed. Cause when I can't stay in stealth the ranger out dps's me and he can do it from any position.
Solo ability.... well lets not even go there. i am fine with rogues being the bottom or near bottom at solo, as long as we are one of the best group classes since we need special circumstances for our dps. I do think monks need dps uped some and def, not to where it was but higher than where it is now. I think each of the 4 should shine in there area and to me it should be
Situational DPS
Rogues
Rangers
Monks
Bards
Standered DPS(or not in perfect positions)
Rangers
Monks
Rogues
Bards
Utility
Bards
Rangers
Rogues
Monks(these two should be roughly equal here honestly)
Off Tanking
Monk
Ranger
Bard
Rogue
If the above was true each class would shine in it's own way and be desirable for what it was good at. Now as for the original actual topic of this thread i am concerned by the reduction in our dps coming. Since I feel we barely out dps rangers as it is and offer less utility and off tank much worse. But our class is not nearly done. We still got poisons coming and that might up our utility and dps noticeable and be easy to get. Will just have to wait and see on that regard.
I do hope all the classes get fixed and get a chance to shine in there own way. I am like many gunshy about reductions, to many games way overdo it when they reduce stuff aka nerf if you like that word.
This is more what I'm thinking and hope it gets fixed more as well. I just don't see how anyone can expect rangers to not have good short burst DPS because their ranged attacks are strong openers and only useful at the beginning of fights when solo.
I guess the problem in that is that rogue and ranger equipment investments are going to be roughly equal, but does the cost of poisons match the cost of arrows? Seems to me this could end up being a lot like EQ was in regards to rogue damage in the beginning.
I dont know the cost of rogue poisons, but at level 35 my arrows cost 2s for a stack of 50. If I solo I need about 15x2stacks (since you want 100 not just stacks of 50)which lasts about 4 hours of non-interrupted play.
So I use about half a gold for ammo...
Nikisha
03-06-2007, 12:47 AM
I dont know the cost of rogue poisons, but at level 35 my arrows cost 2s for a stack of 50. If I solo I need about 15x2stacks (since you want 100 not just stacks of 50)which lasts about 4 hours of non-interrupted play.
So I use about half a gold for ammo...
Right now the cheapest poison is 2sp(forget how many uses i think 7) and it cost that per attempt to raise the skill to make better poisons. Right now it cost about 40sp per skill up. Which is just absured. Granted they are going to totally revamp poison so we will wait and see on that regard. I do think and have said that rogue poison and ranger arrows should be near the same cost or near enough. But will see.
Sebastian Lupus
03-06-2007, 04:27 AM
So....rangers and rogues should have comparable DPS? How does this make sense? I played a monk to 12. Its hard as hell to solo. Monks absolutely rely on crits to get dmg done. I haven't played a ranger/rogue to any meaningful lvl (and I know lvl 12 isn't meaningful, but if it's hard to solo at 12 then...), but it makes sense to me that if a class has extremely situational DPS, that ALSO requires to be stealthed, then they should do FAR more damage than a class that has utility (yes, snares/roots/dots/buffs etc. ARE utility) as wella s the ability to use the bulk of their skills unstealthed and don't require a particular position. :confused: I'm not gonna say that if you don't agree with me, then you are stupid, but if you don't agree with me, then there is obviously something wrong with your line of thinking.
Casters do good dmg and have decent utility cause they wear paper bags and can't melee themselves out of said paper bag. Sure, rogues may be able to take hits on par with a ranger, but a ranger has a heal (doesn't matter how sucky it is, if it saves your life even once, its better than rogues' heals) and crowd control (it may be spotty, but its there at your disposal, or it will be).
I guess, with 3+ of each archetype of playable classes, you are going to get some overlapping. Especially in a group centric game. Difference is, rangers can solo more reliably than a rogue can. At least, they should be.
pimpstick
03-06-2007, 05:01 AM
Ya'll are still missing the point of the thread.
The DPS rankings have rangers and rogues way ahead of the pack, which shouldn't be. They could have fixed this by lowering rogue AND ranger dps, or by raising monk/bard dps. Instead, they are only lowering rogue dps and leaving the class that was the most overpowered to begin with (and has been overpowered ever since like beta 3) alone.
ATM it looks like this
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
after the patch it will be,
DPS
Ranger
Rogue
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
Is it really the intent for rangers to be leaps and bound ahead of everyone in DPS and almost equal to bard utility (especially once the bugs get fixed)? Why do rangers always get to be the kings of all areas? Why do they get to be best at everything and worst at nothing?
The developer intent was
DPS (short fights)
Monk
Rogue
Ranger
Bard
DPS (long fights)
Rogue
Ranger
Monk
Bard
Utility
Bard
Ranger
Monk
Rogue
So can you explain to me why rogues, who have less DPS (burst or sustained), and way less utility, deserve a nerf and rangers don't?
Well first off the last I saw the devs said that rogues were spose to have the best dps in a group seting but kinda suck at solo. So idk y they would be nerfing rogue dmg.
As far as rngs I read some where( I realy dont know if this is true or not) that the games main devs class of choice was ranger meaning they will proly always be on the high end of the scale. But like I said idk if its true proly not but you never know.
IMO rogues should be the best light fighter dps in a group for solo ranger should and duz shine. As far as monks go i cant realy say any thing cuz i have only played monk to lvl 6 and rerolled to try a diferent class out
All the rogues I know personally claim to outdps me so I don't know what to tell you as I don't play one. All I can say is they don't need to nerf Rangers and calling for a Ranger nerf is completely ridiculous as anyone who has played a Ranger can tell you.
The thing is, they may claim to out dps you, but they don't. If you parse it, you will see the truth. Once you reach lvl 35 there is simply no way to keep up with a ranger and their multiple 2k+ dots.
But explain to me why a rogue nerf is valid but a ranger nerf isn't? After all rangers are suppossed to do less DPS than a rogue.
And yes, the owner of this game plays a ranger. Hopefully that has nothing to do with it though.
pimpstick
03-06-2007, 08:58 AM
And yes, the owner of this game plays a ranger. Hopefully that has nothing to do with it though.
I would put some copper on it that it has alot to do with it:eek:
VKitty
03-06-2007, 11:02 AM
Well guess what, for just 14.99 a month you got to be in the last phase of Vanguard beta! Therefore there is no reason to be upset at ANY of the things happening in Vanguard right now. The crashes, the class balancing, the bugs, and the lockups.
So, you see, there is no reason to get upset. Just want till beta ends, and everything will probably be balanced
Mustang68
03-06-2007, 11:08 AM
The thing is, they may claim to out dps you, but they don't. If you parse it, you will see the truth. Once you reach lvl 35 there is simply no way to keep up with a ranger and their multiple 2k+ dots.
But explain to me why a rogue nerf is valid but a ranger nerf isn't? After all rangers are suppossed to do less DPS than a rogue.
And yes, the owner of this game plays a ranger. Hopefully that has nothing to do with it though.
Ohhm, if that's the case, then the developers are so out of whack that there is no reason to play the game, because they obviously are parsing something totally different than you if they think that dps is currently rogues -> rangers -> monks -> bards. If that's true there simply is no reason to play with such little faith in the development team. So, I go back to my original point. I'm going to trust that the developers have a lot more information on hand than you do with any parser you may be using and any groups you might be in. There are too many variables between characters for any one of us to come to any thorough conclusions. Plus, offensive fighters are very critical hit reliant, and, thus, streaky when it comes to dps.
That being said, I have already stated that I think monks need some love (and perhaps even bards). I've also discussed at length how monks should have better mitigation/evasion/dodge, or something to help defensively, across the board in all styles. However, I do NOT think it is workable for the monks to be kings of short fight dps (although I suppose this depends on how long a short fight is). Rangers and rogues both have very damaging situational openers that give them very large burst dps at the beginning to compensate for more mediocre straight on melee skills. Monks can build up jin and get a nice opener in, but I don't consider this to be in the same category. Does this mean I don't think monks and bards could use some love? No. And I have no idea what to think of the rogue changes on the test server.
Mustang68
03-06-2007, 11:10 AM
I would put some copper on it that it has alot to do with it:eek:
It might, but it also seems like half the world plays a ranger sometimes!:(
Calibix
03-06-2007, 11:13 AM
The thing is, they may claim to out dps you, but they don't. If you parse it, you will see the truth. Once you reach lvl 35 there is simply no way to keep up with a ranger and their multiple 2k+ dots.
But explain to me why a rogue nerf is valid but a ranger nerf isn't? After all rangers are suppossed to do less DPS than a rogue.
And yes, the owner of this game plays a ranger. Hopefully that has nothing to do with it though.
Isn't it obvious? Iwantthisgame has clearly explained that rangers are teh suck so rogues must be brought down to their level. God forbid his horribly broken class (ranger) has a class that can do something comparable to rangers. /sarcasmoff
Iwantthisgame
03-06-2007, 01:30 PM
Isn't it obvious? Iwantthisgame has clearly explained that rangers are teh suck so rogues must be brought down to their level. God forbid his horribly broken class (ranger) has a class that can do something comparable to rangers. /sarcasmoff
I haven't said anything remotely close to that you're a complete retard or a horrible troll. What I've said is you should stop talking about Rangers until you actually know what you're talking about. 3/4 rangers in this thread have basically agreed with me and if you go any Rangers boards you'll find plenty more. Oh no though it's the monk who knows more about Rangers right? :rolleyes:
I haven't said anything pertaining to any other needing to be nerfed. What I've said is that you guys need to keep Rangers out of this discussion because you're all pretty clueless about how the class actually plays and what it's capable of doing. Complain about your class but leave mine out of it.
As for whoever was talking about level 12 soloing being any kind of guide- My ranger sucked terribly at soloing until 14 and slowly got better up to 30 where he now is pretty good at it. We are ok at 14, decent at 22, good at 30.
Sebastian Lupus
03-06-2007, 02:54 PM
STUFF.
You are still missing the point. Who are rogues, the promised top melee DPS, supposed to compare themselves with, other than the top melee DPS? So you have broken skills? Your spells get resisted? Well, those are bummers, to be sure, but answer me this. Do you need to be stealthed, and behind the mob to do your crit chain? Oh wait...it doesn't always work? Well, thats too bad. Gues what? A rogue needs to crit, AND be behind the mob, AND be stealthed! Shouldn't they deserve to do more DPS than a ranger, considering the sever requirements to do said DPS?
Saying your ranger class is broken, although it does the most DPS (supposedly, apparently rogues and rangers are pretty even atm) and the majority of your skills DO work, is pretty narrow sighted. Hell, I don't think rogues even have some skills promised them yet. I certainly don't think rogues need to be nerfed just yet, without fixing the ranger first. After that heppens, then we would see who is still top DPS. EQ2 went through this same crap.
The point is, if rogues are getting nerfed, then rangers need to get nerfed aswell so that everything will be equal. That way rangers won't be heaps above the other classes when it comes to dmg.
Iwantthisgame
03-06-2007, 05:41 PM
The point is, if rogues are getting nerfed, then rangers need to get nerfed aswell so that everything will be equal. That way rangers won't be heaps above the other classes when it comes to dmg.
We don't need to be nerfed at all. If rangers are out dpsing anyone it's because our Poison Shot is bugged right now. Everyone is whining about our 2k dots which aren't what is putting us over the top. Currently poison shot ticks every second for the dmg that initial hit did so if you hit for 500 it ticks every second for 500 damage. It's going to be fixed and this is again why you shouldn't bitch about another class unless you actually know what you're talking about.
We don't need to be nerfed at all. If rangers are out dpsing anyone it's because our Poison Shot is bugged right now. Everyone is whining about our 2k dots which aren't what is putting us over the top. Currently poison shot ticks every second for the dmg that initial hit did so if you hit for 500 it ticks every second for 500 damage. It's going to be fixed and this is again why you shouldn't bitch about another class unless you actually know what you're talking about.
Why don't you need to be nerfed? Obviously rogues were doing too much dmg, they needed to be nerfed. If rogues were doing too much dmg, and rangers were doing more than that (there actually suppose to be below rogues in dmg), doesn't that mean that rangers are also doing too much dmg?
Answer this question, plain and simple, don't blame it on bugs, as all classes have bugs and rangers are actually one of the least bugged classes atm.
Answer this question. Keep in mind that rogues are supposed to do more dmg than rangers since they have much less utility. (no heal, debuff, dmg buff, run speed buff, dmg shield) I will use artificial numbers to make it easier to understand.
This is how things currently are (Left).Sigil Wants DMG to be as follows (right)
Now / Supposed to be
Ranger - 115 Rogue - 100
Rogue - 110 Monk - 95
Monk - 80 Ranger - 90
Bard - 80 Bard - 80
I have highlighted the classes that don't match where they are supposed to be in red, the classes that are where they are supposed to be in green. There are 3 classes that are out of balance. Two of those classes are getting adjusted with this patch. Monks are getting a slight boost (which would indicate them going from 80 to 95 on my chart). Rogues are getting a slight nerf (which would indicate them going from 110 to 100 on my chart).
This is how thing should look after the patch
Ranger - 115
Rogue - 100
Monk - 95
Bard - 80
Three of the classes are now perfectly balanced. Why should one be exempt from the balancing?
Iwantthisgame
03-06-2007, 06:25 PM
Why don't you need to be nerfed? Obviously rogues were doing too much dmg, they needed to be nerfed. If rogues were doing too much dmg, and rangers were doing more than that (there actually suppose to be below rogues in dmg), doesn't that mean that rangers are also doing too much dmg?
Answer this question, plain and simple, don't blame it on bugs, as all classes have bugs and rangers are actually one of the least bugged classes atm.
Answer this question. Keep in mind that rogues are supposed to do more dmg than rangers since they have much less utility. (no heal, debuff, dmg buff, run speed buff, dmg shield) I will use artificial numbers to make it easier to understand.
This is how things currently are (Left).Sigil Wants DMG to be as follows (right)
Now Supposed to be
Ranger - 115 Rogue - 100
Rogue - 110 Monk - 95
Monk - 80 Ranger - 90
Bard - 80 Bard - 80
I have highlighted the classes that don't match where they are supposed to be in red, the classes that are where they are supposed to be in green. There are 3 classes that are out of balance. Two of those classes are getting adjusted with this patch. Monks are getting a slight boost (which would indicate them going from 80 to 90 on my chart). Rogues are getting a slight nerf (which would indicate them going from 110 to 100 on my chart).
I don't know that your chart is anywhere near accurate. This game hasn't been out long enough to determine what class does the most damage consistently as things like equipment and player skill play a big part in that. What happened is the same thing happens on every MMO. One class gets a nerf and they bitch about another class. Stop trying to **** up other people's classes when you have no idea how they play. There are tons of rangers if we were running around raping things we'd have been nerfed. The truth is that if we don't crit two dots give us trouble. The class is fine and I've refuted every single argument against this being so thus far and you guys have been broken down to the level of making up statistics to argue your position. I consider my job done.
Out~
I don't know that your chart is anywhere near accurate. This game hasn't been out long enough to determine what class does the most damage consistently as things like equipment and player skill play a big part in that. What happened is the same thing happens on every MMO. One class gets a nerf and they bitch about another class. Stop trying to **** up other people's classes when you have no idea how they play. There are tons of rangers if we were running around raping things we'd have been nerfed. The truth is that if we don't crit two dots give us trouble. The class is fine and I've refuted every single argument against this being so thus far and you guys have been broken down to the level of making up statistics to argue your position. I consider my job done.
Out~
No, you haven't even refuted any argument. You have just avoided it altogether, over and over.
Answer the question.
IF ROGUES ARE DOING TOO MUCH DMG, AND RANGERS ARE DOING MORE DMG THAN ROGUES, DOESN'T THAT MEAN THAT RANGERS ARE ALSO DOING TOO MUCH DMG?
How hard is it to answer the question.
The reason I made up statistics is because you can't seem to grasp the rather easy concept that rangers shouldn't be the best offensive fighter dps AND second best offensive fighter utility. You seem to think that it is perfectly balanced.
Iwantthisgame
03-06-2007, 07:24 PM
No, you haven't even refuted any argument. You have just avoided it altogether, over and over.
Answer the question.
IF ROGUES ARE DOING TOO MUCH DMG, AND RANGERS ARE DOING MORE DMG THAN ROGUES, DOESN'T THAT MEAN THAT RANGERS ARE ALSO DOING TOO MUCH DMG?
How hard is it to answer the question.
The reason I made up statistics is because you can't seem to grasp the rather easy concept that rangers shouldn't be the best offensive fighter dps AND second best offensive fighter utility. You seem to think that it is perfectly balanced.
You have to prove that Rangers are doing more damage. You can't do that and I think the devs know more about what's going on then you do. If rangers needed to be nerfed we would have been nerfed. Btw you can regain stealth and save your group from a whipe. That's some serious utility so stop pretending rogues are still broken. Every rogue I know loves their class now and only has good things to say about it and what the future holds for it.
Until you can show some conclusive proof that rangers do more damage than rogues your argument is pointless. This is why you made up statistics and it's also why this thread has been utterly destroyed.
Vinge
03-06-2007, 07:35 PM
Btw you can regain stealth and save your group from a whipe. That's some serious utility so stop pretending rogues are still broken.
Fyi rogues can't regain stealth and save a group from a wipe once they've entered combat unless they're lvl 48+ and they get the Escape ability. Until then they might be able to stealth in combat, but they have no way of losing aggro, so on a wipe they will die just like everybody else if they've entered combat.
Yep, serious utility for all those lvl 48+ rogues out there!
Of course, lower level rogues can also save groups from wipes, they just need to never actually enter combat. :D
Iwantthisgame
03-06-2007, 07:48 PM
Fyi rogues can't regain stealth and save a group from a wipe once they've entered combat unless they're lvl 48+ and they get the Escape ability. Until then they might be able to stealth in combat, but they have no way of losing aggro, so on a wipe they will die just like everybody else if they've entered combat.
Yep, serious utility for all those lvl 48+ rogues out there!
Of course, lower level rogues can also save groups from wipes, they just need to never actually enter combat. :D
Well what actually matters is level 50. Every MMO in history has level ranges where a certain class is gimped compared to other classes. We will be spending the vast vast majority of our time at level 50 and it only makes sense for the devs to balance the game primarily around that level. I've never seen Ranger or Rogue damage at level 50 maybe Rogues needed to be nerfed who knows.
Modica Solis
03-06-2007, 11:31 PM
Well what actually matters is level 50. Every MMO in history has level ranges where a certain class is gimped compared to other classes. We will be spending the vast vast majority of our time at level 50 and it only makes sense for the devs to balance the game primarily around that level. I've never seen Ranger or Rogue damage at level 50 maybe Rogues needed to be nerfed who knows.
Hahaha, what? This game is about what happens at level fifty. This is about what happens from one to fifty, especially due to the state that the game is in now once you get past level thirty or so. You're trying to use a cheap cop-out to get out of the argument, because you know you're wrong. Good try, though.
Hahaha, what? This game is about what happens at level fifty. This is about what happens from one to fifty, especially due to the state that the game is in now once you get past level thirty or so. You're trying to use a cheap cop-out to get out of the argument, because you know you're wrong. Good try, though.
Thats what he is all about, cheap cop outs. He has yet to disprove any of our arguments or setup a valid argument in his defense. All he keeps saying is that rangers don't need to be nerfed. With no proof at all. He thinks it's perfectly balanced that rangers have the best DPS of the light fighters, best survivability, and second best utility (way above rogue and monk utility).
As for proving that rangers do more dmg. Get a parser and anyone can see who does more. Or just take a direct comparison of the skills and it's clear who it's in favor of. And no just because rangers aren't getting nerfed doesn't mean they don't need it. The reason rangers aren't getting nerfed and have been the most overpowered class since beta 3 is because Brad plays that class.
Even if rogues did do more dmg it still wouldn't matter, because guess what. Rogues are supposed to do more dmg than rangers, according to the devs. So are monks. It's a balance of utility vs. DMG. Rangers get more utility, so they get less dmg.
Astery
03-07-2007, 12:40 AM
As for proving that rangers do more dmg. Get a parser and anyone can see who does more. Or just take a direct comparison of the skills and it's clear who it's in favor of. And no just because rangers aren't getting nerfed doesn't mean they don't need it. The reason rangers aren't getting nerfed and have been the most overpowered class since beta 3 is because Brad plays that class.
teamed a tank ranger yesterday, i was 22, he was 21. he was able to tank and keep aggro 80% of the time, and i realized its the situational dps when i turn the mob. then stealth goes off, rebuild it takes 15 seconds...
i need to crit more to be able to output more damage.. i hope new fixes on rogue stealth will address much higher crit rate.
just for the reference the ranger had 7 (sword) and 10 (sword) dps weapons, i got 19(sword) and 16 (dagger).
Calibix
03-07-2007, 02:32 AM
You have to prove that Rangers are doing more damage. You can't do that and I think the devs know more about what's going on then you do. If rangers needed to be nerfed we would have been nerfed. Btw you can regain stealth and save your group from a whipe. That's some serious utility so stop pretending rogues are still broken. Every rogue I know loves their class now and only has good things to say about it and what the future holds for it.
Until you can show some conclusive proof that rangers do more damage than rogues your argument is pointless. This is why you made up statistics and it's also why this thread has been utterly destroyed.
I guess this begs the questions: 1)prove that your ranger isn't outdpsing every other offensive fighter 2)Since our statistics are made up, please show us your accurate ones.
Since we have no parsers, the best we can rely on is what was told to us in the offensive fighter communities by our class leads. The new monk class lead told us (vgmonks.com and here should both have the links somewhere, although monks would be easier to find) that the devs ran the parsers on the offensive fighters. They ended up like this:
1) Rangers 2) Rogues <vast chasm of dps> 3) Monks 4) Bards.
That's pretty much the best proof your gonna get. Besides watching rangers destroy mob hps compared to other classes. If you still don't think rangers are the best dps, turn on the damage float numbers for other people. You'd seriously be amazed (at least I am, as a monk that is freaking /boggling to see that much damage being poured out). Oh, plus you have the 2nd best utility of all offensive fighters.
Iwantthisgame, you continuely say leave your class out of it, but since the game is designed around archtypes, comparisons have to be made in order to achieve class balance. You call me a troll, but not once have you provided anything even close to logical to this arguement, you just try to flame everyone who says anything about rangers.
You say all 3/4 of the rangers posting here agree with you, and I call BS. The ranger I group with has made a folder called "Glory Days" for his screenies. It's because he has enough MMMORPG sense to realize that his class is overpowered, and he wants to save those memories. He realizes that it's not fair that he be the best dps, and have great utility. Everyone on my server who knows there stuff will tell you the exact same thing.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing any class get nerfed. Period. But sometimes, it is required to achieve class balance within the game. Rangers are at some point going to be taking a signifcant dps hit. Again, I think most rangers understand why and will except it.
You probably won't. Why? Rangfanboier.
Dude, seriously stop posting. You only make yourself look worse and worse.
Sebastian Lupus
03-07-2007, 05:14 AM
Just because someone doesn't play the class, doesn't mean they can't observe said class in action. I didn't know that Ranger snares didn't work on ANYTHING. Just because I don't live in China doesn't mean I don't know what's going on there.
Let me ask this question. As a Ranger, when you are setting up your crit shot ability, do you have to worry about the mob "percieving" you and henceforth beating the living, peanuty, gooey, "oh look there's the corn I ate last night!" &^%$ outta you? I doubt it. All you have to worry about is adds. Guess what? Rogues have to worry about adds too. Also, if the rogue wants to avoid adds, they get to use there uber "arc of daggers" to pull, which is sorely lacking the power of ranger bows.
Also, if the ranger fights long enough, face to face, he builds up his offensive stance's power, correct? A rogue can't do that, they MUST remain stealthed. They also require positioning and timing. If a mob turns at the wrong time, and "percieves" the rogue, its bad news. Sure, a rogue can trash a solo mob if he gets everything right, and it isn't that hard, but killing the same mob with a ranger is easier.
Before saying rogues need to be nerfed and rangers don't, roll a rogue?
WinterX
03-07-2007, 09:15 AM
I am lvl 33 Ranger atm and don't see any reason why we should get nerfed.
We can kill 2dotters up to 3lvls without much of a Problem and we cannot really kill a 3dotter at the same lvl. That's how it should be.
Ok soloing is just one aspect of the game, but I say the ranger is ok how it is now, as there are really several classes that are more powerful (not only) at soloing.
In a group I really can't say yet who will do more damage. I didn't parse yet, but I agree that rogues should be over Rangerdps if equally geared.
However that doesn't change the fact that rangers are ok. Maybe rogues and monks need a boost ?
I don't understand who is gettin hurt if a ranger does nice dps in a group anyway. We can't solo that 4dot named like a cleric or chainpull 3dotters like a pala or fearkite like a necro, we need to team up for that like any other "Light-fighterclass"
Iwantthisgame
03-07-2007, 01:17 PM
I am lvl 33 Ranger atm and don't see any reason why we should get nerfed.
We can kill 2dotters up to 3lvls without much of a Problem and we cannot really kill a 3dotter at the same lvl. That's how it should be.
Ok soloing is just one aspect of the game, but I say the ranger is ok how it is now, as there are really several classes that are more powerful (not only) at soloing.
In a group I really can't say yet who will do more damage. I didn't parse yet, but I agree that rogues should be over Rangerdps if equally geared.
However that doesn't change the fact that rangers are ok. Maybe rogues and monks need a boost ?
I don't understand who is gettin hurt if a ranger does nice dps in a group anyway. We can't solo that 4dot named like a cleric or chainpull 3dotters like a pala or fearkite like a necro, we need to team up for that like any other "Light-fighterclass"
Losing battle man it doesn't matter how many rangers tell them they're wrong it's obvious that the guys who haven't actually played a Ranger know more about the class than we do :rolleyes:
btw from what I've read they made rangers almost useless with todays patch so enjoy it taking 4x as long to kill mobs because you no longer have good dps in your groups. That should make your game more fun. If when I log on my damage is actually what people are reporting it is I will wait one day for a dev clarification that this is a bug and if one doesn't come I'm cancelling.
I am lvl 33 Ranger atm and don't see any reason why we should get nerfed.
We can kill 2dotters up to 3lvls without much of a Problem and we cannot really kill a 3dotter at the same lvl. That's how it should be.
Ok soloing is just one aspect of the game, but I say the ranger is ok how it is now, as there are really several classes that are more powerful (not only) at soloing.
In a group I really can't say yet who will do more damage. I didn't parse yet, but I agree that rogues should be over Rangerdps if equally geared.
However that doesn't change the fact that rangers are ok. Maybe rogues and monks need a boost ?
I don't understand who is gettin hurt if a ranger does nice dps in a group anyway. We can't solo that 4dot named like a cleric or chainpull 3dotters like a pala or fearkite like a necro, we need to team up for that like any other "Light-fighterclass"
Hello, most of the stuff I see I agree with. Atleast you are actually logical and not completely biased like Iwanthisgame. The point is, there is a huge gap between ranger/rogue dps and monk/bard dps. This gap is not meant to be there.
Agreed?
Now there are two ways of fixing this problem. You can
A) Up monk/bard dps
B) Lower rogue/ranger DPS
They seem to have chosen option B, however, you can't just do half of the equation (i.e only nerfing rogues). If you go with option B you have to nerf both classes. It isn't neccisary really to nerf rangers, however if they go with option B, it is. If they don't nerf them they will be in a league of their own when it comes to dmg. Kinda see what I'm seeing.
Lol feels good actually talking to someone who is not completely biased. I try my best to remain unbiased and just take the facts as they are, but I know it can be hard.
Mashef
03-07-2007, 06:41 PM
people tend to forget that rogues are almost exclusively gear dependent class.
once you get some amazing 100 dps dagger you will blow the rest of the free world away. if your abilities do to much damage now then later when you get good gear you will be insanely overpowered. Rogues do good dps atm with the last few patches, i can imagine some well geared rogues would be tops on dps. But again its a gear dependent class ina gear dependent game, rogues pry will continue to be average for a little while longer.
to the guy who suggested upping bard dps
LOL bards are the most overpowered of all the light fighters. They need less dps or there songs need to be less beefy. They have to much atm.
rangers are fine, beef up rogues and dragon monks, the other harmonious monk / bard dps should be on par below rogues/rangers/dragon monks and drunken monks bringing up the rear in dps but pry highest survivability rate for pulling raids!
people tend to forget that rogues are almost exclusively gear dependent class.
once you get some amazing 100 dps dagger you will blow the rest of the free world away. if your abilities do to much damage now then later when you get good gear you will be insanely overpowered. Rogues do good dps atm with the last few patches, i can imagine some well geared rogues would be tops on dps. But again its a gear dependent class ina gear dependent game, rogues pry will continue to be average for a little while longer.
to the guy who suggested upping bard dps
LOL bards are the most overpowered of all the light fighters. They need less dps or there songs need to be less beefy. They have to much atm.
rangers are fine, beef up rogues and dragon monks, the other harmonious monk / bard dps should be on par below rogues/rangers/dragon monks and drunken monks bringing up the rear in dps but pry highest survivability rate for pulling raids!
Ummm. rogues aren't any more gear dependent than rangers. Infact I would say rangers are more gear dependent, as they need a good bow and good weapons.
How are bards overpowered? They have the least DPS and the most utility. Thats exactly where there supposed to be.
Mashef
03-08-2007, 12:17 AM
Ummm. rogues aren't any more gear dependent than rangers. Infact I would say rangers are more gear dependent, as they need a good bow and good weapons.
How are bards overpowered? They have the least DPS and the most utility. Thats exactly where there supposed to be.
yes but they dont do the least dps is the problem they actually do damn near the most way more than monks and rogues to be sure atm.
rangers get several buffs to boost accuracy / crit chance / melee dmg, unless rogues get buffs that makes them more dependent than rangers, as we can buff up ourselfs to make up for the lack of weapons. so no...rangers are not as gear dependent as rogues
Sebastian Lupus
03-08-2007, 01:14 AM
yes but they dont do the least dps is the problem they actually do damn near the most way more than monks and rogues to be sure atm.
rangers get several buffs to boost accuracy / crit chance / melee dmg, unless rogues get buffs that makes them more dependent than rangers, as we can buff up ourselfs to make up for the lack of weapons. so no...rangers are not as gear dependent as rogues
What you mean is, rangers don't depend on gear like a rogue does. Obtaining gear takes time and effort above and beyond just leveling and meeting the rquirements for new buffs. You say this justifies rangers being on par damage wise with a rogue? Ranger atm is a rogue on easy mode.
Besides, if an uber 100 DPS dagger dropped that was multi-class useable, I have no doubt in my mind the ranger would be rolling need right alongside the rogue. I doubt the ranger would say, "Oh, you can have this uber, sick, devestating weapon because I have a Dex buff."
Eeowan
03-08-2007, 01:35 AM
rangers got 10+ dev post :) http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?p=157855#post157855
what about rogues ?
Shawnsan
03-08-2007, 01:38 AM
Title says it all, rogues are suppose to have more dmg than rangers. Yet atm they have less. To fix this requires either a rogue buff or ranger nerf, not a rogue nerf.
Guess rogues were getting to close to ranger dmg so they had to nerf them down.
Because Brad McQuaid doesn't play a Rogue he plays a ranger?!?!
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