Bye!

[saubertounito]

No you cant have my stuff.

Just wanted to thanks the community for its time and I enjoyed arguing with some of you as well as agreeing. I was initially very happy that they were extending a helping hand to our class through Quinn.

However (to Sigil) trying to convince me that you are working on helping our class by outright nerfing the last remaining thing we had going for us (bare fists), while only raising our base damage slightly (while significantly increasing clerics melee damage?) shows me you don't give a rats ass about our class. And no I will not give them more time.

If eventually they nerfed our hand to hand damage thats fine; I expected that they would, but starting out with the nerf, while doing nothing what so ever about buffing us is just too much. Who the hell is the PR person for the dev team anyway? Its like they want monks to cancel their subscriptions, at least it seems that way to me.

If however they changed our abilities to a weapon % base + damage, somehow increased crit range for each style type (Harm gets a significant increase with one of their stances so changing abilities to increase crit% is a bad idea) they could have added say 5% crit to each of Dragons and Drunkens offensive stances, which would have helped with the currently low crit rate, but they didnt.

They didnt change a damn thing about our outdated skill set, but just through a bandaid on it (really did you think a "slight increase in dps" is what monks wanted, considering that there was a "Vast Chasm" between rogue/ranger and monk dps? Are you guys serioiusly retarded? Take in the bare fist nerf and alls a slight increase in base damage does is put us right back where we are right now.... take 100 - 10 then add 10 still equals 100. The only thing they did was allow us to get some additional stats yay! ill give up dps for some more +energy! WEWT!

I allowed them to make me think they would actually do something, and they may still do so, however to start with such an obvious PR blunder leads me to believe they could give a SNARF less about the second least played class in the game. I sincerly hope their subsciption base allows them to make bone head mistakes like this, but I can now take a step back, relax and focus my energy and money on something else.


Thanks Quinn, you are truely a pimp TL and keep up the good work for as long as you can take it! Peace out other monks and hopefully you will get what the class deserves someday.

[Vanboi123]

I also will never play monk now, even if they buff them who cares they wont have the utility a ranger or druid has and will only have the same dps....in 5 months, this has definatly cut the time I will be subscribing to this game, i will most likely be leaving this bug infested unbalanced game when LOTR comes out, and alot of other pissed off subscribers will be leaving to greener pastures when they become available

I may come back 4+ months later when this game is in decent shape, i however have a felling its going to take much longer than that...

[DCpunk]

30 days post-release folks. 30 days. Talk about impatience. :rolleyes:

[Vanboi123]

No weve been waiting since all of beta, and up untill now, thats years of waiting and all they have done is either broken monks or nerfed them for no apparent reason

Their priorities are really screwed when classes are going around soloing two 2 dots 6 levels over them at once and 3 dots six levels over them whill monks can not solo a even 3 dot without being extremely lucky

Monks are the worst dps class, and the worst class in this game right now, yet they find some reason to nerf our fist damage, wtf is that? you tell me why i should wait around whill theyve been pulling this crap off ever since monks were released into beta

This patch is just more reason to leave, we are the worst class in thsi game yet all we get is "very slight increase to base damage" and more NERFS, and disciples get "significat auto attack and special melee damage increase" ROFL WHAT are they smoking jesus christ

[DCpunk]

No weve been waiting since all of beta, and up untill now, thats years of waiting and all they have done is either broken monks or nerfed them for no apparent reason

Their priorities are really screwed when classes are going around soloing two 2 dots 6 levels over them at once and 3 dots six levels over them whill monks can not solo a even 3 dot without being extremely lucky

Monks are the worst dps class, and the worst class in this game right now, yet they find some reason to nerf our fist damage, wtf is that? you tell me why i should wait around whill theyve been pulling this crap off ever since monks were released into beta

This patch is just more reason to leave, we are the worst class in thsi game yet all we get is "very slight increase to base damage" and more NERFS, and disciples get "significat auto attack and special melee damage increase" ROFL WHAT are they smoking jesus christ

Really, no class should be soloing 3 dots without being extremely lucky. The nerf is coming down the pike for healers as well as our mitigation is getting nerfed. It's all about class balance, but they can't do every single class at once.

So, yes, it's imaptience and unreal expectations about what you should and shouldn't be able to solo. I'm a shammy and I shouldn't be able to solo some of the stuff that I can. I'm fully expecting and HOPING that a nerf will come in the name of class balance, and I hope the same happens to the other classes that are able to solo content meant for groups.

[Mysa]

Really, no class should be soloing 3 dots without being extremely lucky. The nerf is coming down the pike for healers as well as our mitigation is getting nerfed. It's all about class balance, but they can't do every single class at once.

So, yes, it's imaptience and unreal expectations about what you should and shouldn't be able to solo. I'm a shammy and I shouldn't be able to solo some of the stuff that I can. I'm fully expecting and HOPING that a nerf will come in the name of class balance, and I hope the same happens to the other classes that are able to solo content meant for groups.

I haven't seen any mobs summon yet. uh..why. You can kite like every mob in the game unless they cast stun or root.

[Nargroth]

Let me sum it up to you.

They tweaked my class and now I'm no longer better than, but only equal to, everyone else.

Ergo this game sucks.

Ergo I quit my sub.

Just keep in mind that most classes haven't been fully balanced yet, and it's an ongoing process.

Don't even try to whine about that as being a flaw, or unfinished, or otherwise. Let me point you straight at the patch updates in most other MMO's, including, but not limited to, EQ1, EQ2, WoW. Everytime there is a larger patch, some classes get their abilities changed, nerfed or buffed.

And these game have over a year and two out on the market already.

Vanguard has 30 days, and has admittedly been released ahead of time.

Go post your hollow reasons for quitting elsewhere. Don't need to hear that impatient and shallow rubbish here.

[Soluss]

Let me sum it up to you.

They tweaked my class and now I'm no longer better than, but only equal to, everyone else.

Ergo this game sucks.

Ergo I quit my sub.

Just keep in mind that most classes haven't been fully balanced yet, and it's an ongoing process.

Don't even try to whine about that as being a flaw, or unfinished, or otherwise. Let me point you straight at the patch updates in most other MMO's, including, but not limited to, EQ1, EQ2, WoW. Everytime there is a larger patch, some classes get their abilities changed, nerfed or buffed.

And these game have over a year and two out on the market already.

Vanguard has 30 days, and has admittedly been released ahead of time.

Go post your hollow reasons for quitting elsewhere. Don't need to hear that impatient and shallow rubbish here.

Do you even know anything about the monk class? The monk is far from equal to anyone else BEFORE THE CHANGES. We are the worst class in game currently. We offer practically NO utility to a group. We are practically the lowest DPS of the offensive fighters. The rogue and the ranger are way ahead in DPS terms and we are only slightly better then the bard in terms of DPS. Yet we offer nothing else to a group except the occasional buggy FD. So you tell me how we are equal to every other class. You also tell me how we were better than ANY other class prior to the changes.

We aren't pissed because we were better or equal to and they nerfed us. We are pissed because we ARE AND WERE WAY BEHIND the other offensive fighters and yet we have seen 3 nerfs in 3 patches and are still getting them. I suggest you learn about a class before you try to intelligently post on one, while trying to flame someone for being frustrated about it.

[DCpunk]

So you tell me how we are equal to every other class. You also tell me how we were better than ANY other class prior to the changes.

Apparently, you were better than a bard, so by your own admission it's really bards that should be up in arms and monks should STFU.


We aren't pissed because we were better or equal to and they nerfed us. We are pissed because we ARE AND WERE WAY BEHIND the other offensive fighters and yet we have seen 3 nerfs in 3 patches and are still getting them. I suggest you learn about a class before you try to intelligently post on one, while trying to flame someone for being frustrated about it.

Rogue and ranger - nerf inc. Believe it. Have you been unable to put 2 and 2 together?

[Soluss]

Apparently, you were better than a bard, so by your own admission it's really bards that should be up in arms and monks should STFU.

What I said was that we are SLIGHTLY ahead of bards IN THE DPS department... not by much. Bards have a TON of utility to equalize that. Monks have close to zero utility. Bard utility + almost eqaul DPS to a monk = better then Monk. You should STFU.

[RaekwonThaChef]

Talk about a big post of Class envy. Well since we are talking about this ima quit cause my 36 bard cant nuke like a sorcerer until them BE GONE VANGUARD

[DCpunk]

What I said was that we are SLIGHTLY ahead of bards IN THE DPS department... not by much. Bards have a TON of utility to equalize that. Monks have close to zero utility. Bard utility + almost eqaul DPS to a monk = better then Monk. You should STFU.

So, monks just don't have any utility, or their utility is broken at this time? Or do you just not see the value of the utility that they have?

[Soluss]

Talk about a big post of Class envy. Well since we are talking about this ima quit cause my 36 bard cant nuke like a sorcerer until them BE GONE VANGUARD

A bard and a sorceror are 2 different categories. A bard and a monk are in the same category of offensive fighter. While a bard offers a ton of utility to a group and pretty much the same dps as a monk, why would someone chose a monk over a bard for a group? They wouldnt, it would be stupid to. I have no ill will towards the bards, rangers, rogues. I am not asking for them to be nerfed, nor do I want them to. What I am asking for is for the monk to be fixed to offer something to a group that equals that of the other offensive fighters. Currently The monk is out dps'd by the ranger and the rogue. Currently the monk is pretty close to equal to bard dps. In some cases depending on weapons the bard can surpass monk dps. Currently the bard, and the ranger both offer way more utility then a monk. So currently there is no reason to chose a monk over any of the other offensive fighters. This currently makes the class way underbalanced in its offensive fighter category.

This is not a class envy post, this is a post about how the monk is extremely subpar to the other offensive fighters.

[Soluss]

So, monks just don't have any utility, or their utility is broken at this time? Or do you just not see the value of the utility that they have?


The monk utility.... FD. FD is currently very buggy in its form. You can no longer use it to split pull mobs effectively. The reason is because when you pull now, the mobs immediatly leash back to there spawn points upon FD. FD versus higher level mobs, which is useally what you are fighting in a group, in its current form has a very low success rate. Also in its current form is very buggy when 90% of the time that there are 3 or more mobs, even when FD is a success, you are still locked in combat and aggro to the mobs. This means that you are pretty much dead. So yeah I would say that FD is broken.

Other monk utility... as a harmonious monk my other utility is the capability of decreasing the mobs mitigation by 15%. While it is ok, it hardly makes a difference.

As far as utility goes... thats it, atleast as harmonious monks go.

[DCpunk]

The monk utility.... FD. FD is currently very buggy in its form. You can no longer use it to split pull mobs effectively. The reason is because when you pull now, the mobs immediatly leash back to there spawn points upon FD. FD versus higher level mobs, which is useally what you are fighting in a group, in its current form has a very low success rate. Also in its current form is very buggy when 90% of the time that there are 3 or more mobs, even when FD is a success, you are still locked in combat and aggro to the mobs. This means that you are pretty much dead. So yeah I would say that FD is broken.

Other monk utility... as a harmonious monk my other utility is the capability of decreasing the mobs mitigation by 15%. While it is ok, it hardly makes a difference.

As far as utility goes... thats it, atleast as harmonious monks go.


So, the utility is there, it's just broken? Yeah?

[Eeowan]

leavin game cuz your class sux ? lol!
just reroll m8 :)

oh btw rogues not better then monks...
ps: i rerolled rogue, had 26 sorc

[Soluss]

So, monks just don't have any utility, or their utility is broken at this time? Or do you just not see the value of the utility that they have?

So, the utility is there, it's just broken? Yeah?


There is minimal utility yes. Most of it is broken yes. I never claimed there was no utility, I said there was almost no utility. Honestly if they fixed FD to the way it should work, I would be completely happy with the utility aspect of the class.

I did however in the last post forget to mention Nerve Strike as a listed utility...

Nerve Strike.. 30 second stun, requires you to be out of combat and at the feet of the mob to use it. It also breaks if someone farts in the stunned mobs direction. Would be more usefull if it did not require you to be out of combat and the range was increased a little.

[Soluss]

leavin game cuz your class sux ? lol!
just reroll m8 :)

oh btw rogues not better then monks...
ps: i rerolled rogue, had 26 sorc

Im not leaving the game. The OP may be and I can't say that I blame him. Its easy for someone to say reroll. However its not always easy for someone to do that. Me, for example. I came to the game with a bunch of friends. We are now all right around lvl 30. I have no desire to reroll , do pug's and or solo, while I try to play catch up to them for a month or two. Again though I am not leaving but just trying to point out that rerolling isn't always a viable option.

[DCpunk]

There is minimal utility yes. Most of it is broken yes. I never claimed there was no utility, I said there was almost no utility. Honestly if they fixed FD to the way it should work, I would be completely happy with the utility aspect of the class.

I did however in the last post forget to mention Nerve Strike as a listed utility...

Nerve Strike.. 30 second stun, requires you to be out of combat and at the feet of the mob to use it. It also breaks if someone farts in the stunned mobs direction. Would be more usefull if it did not require you to be out of combat and the range was increased a little.


Sooooo... what we've learned is that you're being a drama queen. Case closed.

[Soluss]

leavin game cuz your class sux ? lol!
just reroll m8 :)

oh btw rogues not better then monks...
ps: i rerolled rogue, had 26 sorc

Sooooo... what we've learned is that you're being a drama queen. Case closed.

Yeah I know, god forbid that I post problems about a subpar class that is continually ignored. God forbid your precious shamans and clerics get a mitigation nerf too.

Try playing a monk up to lvl 30 and see how sub par it is. Then come back and tell me that there is nothing wrong with the class. Or dont even do that. Take your shaman and remove half of your heals from your hot bar. Then take and remove all but 2 buffs from your hot bar. Only use your buffs half of your played time becuase the other half can be considered broke. See how you compare to the other healers playing like that. That is what it is like to play a monk.

[DCpunk]

Yeah I know, god forbid that I post problems about a subpar class that is continually ignored. God forbid your precious shamans and clerics get a mitigation nerf too.

Try playing a monk up to lvl 30 and see how sub par it is. Then come back and tell me that there is nothing wrong with the class. Or dont even do that. Take your shaman and remove half of your heals from your hot bar. Then take and remove all but 2 buffs from your hot bar. Only use your buffs half of your played time becuase the other half can be considered broke. See how you compare to the other healers playing like that. That is what it is like to play a monk.

You can say "continually ignored" if/when they've finished the class passes and monks still haven't been touched. Until then, cry me a river.

P.S. In case you haven't heard, nerf bat has already been swung at healers on test. Go poke around a bit and find out. You won't hear me crying about it.

[Soluss]

P.S. In case you haven't heard, nerf bat has already been swung at healers on test. Go poke around a bit and find out. You won't hear me crying about it.

This is basically my same fear. I'm worried about how this is going to affect me, as a healer, if/when I pull aggro in a dungeon crawl against mobs that hit way harder than anything I solo. But, hey, this is only on test right now. It doesn't mean it's going live. We can only hope that it doesn't make live, and if it does that it's either not as bad as we fear or that if it is, it won't last long.

Well, tuning crits down would also be a nerf, yeah? ;) It just seems to me that it would be a more sensible nerf. But whatever. I'm still gonna play a shammy. I'm just going to have to have faith that this decisions was made to fit in with the rest of the "class balancing" that's going on and is best for the longevity of the game. If it ever becomes unfun, I'll stop playing.

You may not be crying about it yet. It does however sound like you are worried about it. It also sounds like if it does happen you arent going to be happy about it. Im also willing to bet if you are not happy about it, you will complain about it. Which is nothing more then I am doing about something that is already live.

What the hell do you even care about what I think about monks anyways. Does it somehow effect you? Go somewhere else and flame other people like you have in many of your other posts. Seems to me you are nothing more then an egotistical troll that gets his kicks out of trying to tell people they are wrong for feeling what they feel. You flame people because they don't like a game. You flame people for pointing out what is wrong with there class. You think you are an expert that knows everything about this game, computers, and all the classes. To my knowledge you have probably never played a monk, so you know nothing about our issues. Even if you read the skill descriptions about my class that is nothing to the actual experience of playing one. I suggest yet again you park your shaman for a while and play a monk till 30 in both group situations and solo aspects. Then do it side by side with a bard, ranger, and a rogue. Then compare the 4 classes to each other. If you still think that there is nothing wrong with a monk so be it. Until then go flame yourself a river elsewhere.

[DCpunk]

You may not be crying about it yet. It does however sound like you are worried about it. It also sounds like if it does happen you arent going to be happy about it. Im also willing to bet if you are not happy about it, you will complain about it. Which is nothing more then I am doing about something that is already live.

Will I complain about it? Probably not. I'm not terribly bothered by in-game changes. I'll keep playing until the game becomes not fun. Not fun is when I find it boring. Having to watch aggro closely or group fall down go boom does not equal boring - quite the contrary.

What the hell do you even care about what I think about monks anyways. Does it somehow effect you? Go somewhere else and flame other people like you have in many of your other posts. Seems to me you are nothing more then an egotistical troll that gets his kicks out of trying to tell people they are wrong for feeling what they feel.

How completely ridiculous.

You flame people because they don't like a game.

Even more ridiculous. People have different tastes. I don't like DAoC, some don't like WoW, some don't like [insert game here]. We all have our reasons.

You flame people for pointing out what is wrong with there class.

No. I flame people for being drama queens.

You think you are an expert that knows everything about this game,

Hardly.

computers,

I know a good bit, but Fozzik has me beat by a long shot.

and all the classes.

What the hell? Did you see me asking pointed questions about why you felt that your utility was almost non-existant? How would this translate to me thinking that I know everything about all the classes?

To my knowledge you have probably never played a monk,

CORRECT!

so you know nothing about our issues. Even if you read the skill descriptions about my class that is nothing to the actual experience of playing one.

Hence the questions. ;) But I will, again, pile the flames on anyone that whines and cries like an 11 year old girl about how completely broken and unplayable their classes are. Mainly because there are enough other people that ARE playing and not throwing a dramatic fit that such a notion is obviously complete hogwash.

I suggest yet again you park your shaman for a while and play a monk till 30 in both group situations and solo aspects. Then do it side by side with a bard, ranger, and a rogue. Then compare the 4 classes to each other. If you still think that there is nothing wrong with a monk so be it. Until then go flame yourself a river elsewhere.

No thanks. I only ever play one character at a time. But I play with 2 bards and 2 rangers pretty much constantly so I have a good idea of their capabilities. Rangers are certainly overpowered and I'm quite certain, in light of the other class balance passes being made, that they'll get hit with the nerf bat soon as well. They'll likely be last, however, as the ranger is Mr. McQuaids class of choice. Fair? Not really. But I'm still certain that it will happen to all classes.

So, again... if you are still unequal to all of the light fighters after the passes are complete then you'll have room to complain. Until that situation occurs, you don't.

[Soluss]

First of all the way you asked the questions about utility was retarded. It would be like you saying I have hardly any money to get food. Then me asking... you have no money, or do you have some money but not enough, or is the money you have not accessible? You then reply well I have a dollar but its not enough to buy a meal. The dollar is also in the bank but the bank is closed.

Well there you have it... you have money, your simply being a drama queen case closed.

I am not being a drama queen, I am simply pointing out the facts that our class needs some buffage. Am I quitting the game? no. Do I hate the game? No, I love this game and I love my class. I am not giving up my class. Again, I am simply trying to bring attention to the fact that monks need help. If noone pointed out any issues whatsoever in this game then nothing would ever get fixed or changed appropriately.

You don't even play a monk. You dont care about monks. Why are you even here debating your views on me? Why do you sit and flame me? What the hell have I done to you? Do you see me on any other class posts telling them how ****ed up they are for wanting changes? No, because I don't care about other classes. All I care about is how my class fits in with the other offensive fighters. Currently my class cannot compete with other offensive fighters because every other offensive fighters can do what we do but do it better.

[Soluss]

So, again... if you are still unequal to all of the light fighters after the passes are complete then you'll have room to complain. Until that situation occurs, you don't.

I forgot to say... without complaints, how are they suppose to know what does and does not work. Without input they have nothing. Do you think they play every class in enough situations that they would know this stuff on there own? Where would the knowledge otherwise come from?

It's like going to Best Buy. You buy a TV and bring it home. The TV picture is all green. You don't say anything to best buy or the manufacturer because if you did you would be a drama queen. Do you think they somehow by some miracle know that your TV is broke? Do you think if you never said anything the TV would get fixed?

[Mustang68]

I honestly think that utility is not the problem here (other than the fact that monk's FD may not be working properly). To me, all of the classes, but for bards, offer a similar level of utility when everything is working properly.

The bigger problem to me is how mitigation/evasion/dodge/etc. works for offensive fighters. In my mind, monks certainly deserve a far better evasion/dodge rating than the other offensive fighter classes. This is due to fact that monks typically generate most of their dps at melee range in straight melee combat, unlike rogues and rangers who typically start stealthed or from range. At the moment it does not seem like evasion and dodge is perhaps powerful enough as mobs in melee typically are able to deliver quite a bit more damage. This affects monks the most (and bards, but they have more utility to "compensate" for this) as they melee.

I would think that all offensive fighters dps should be fairly close with clear advantages going to the ranger and rogue when they are both able to start attacks with ranged shots and stealth shots respectively. But monks should CLEARLY be the best at evading/dodging damage, and I don't find this to be the case unless I am in defensive stance. I think this advantage should carry across the board.

[Rulan]

No weve been waiting since all of beta, and up untill now, thats years of waiting and all they have done is either broken monks or nerfed them for no apparent reason

Their priorities are really screwed when classes are going around soloing two 2 dots 6 levels over them at once and 3 dots six levels over them whill monks can not solo a even 3 dot without being extremely lucky

Monks are the worst dps class, and the worst class in this game right now, yet they find some reason to nerf our fist damage, wtf is that? you tell me why i should wait around whill theyve been pulling this crap off ever since monks were released into beta

This patch is just more reason to leave, we are the worst class in thsi game yet all we get is "very slight increase to base damage" and more NERFS, and disciples get "significat auto attack and special melee damage increase" ROFL WHAT are they smoking jesus christ

Waaaaawaaaaaa.

[DCpunk]

*snip*

I am not being a drama queen, I am simply pointing out the facts that our class needs some buffage.

*snip*




Your class doesn't need buffage. It needs to stay where it is and have the abilities that it has fixed.


Your analogy would have worked if you had stated that you had a dollar in the bank but the teller refused to give it to you.

[Vanboi123]

FD is not utility...thats like saying invis is utility and like saying damage should be lowered based on your class having invis, no, monks should be right under rogues in dps and above rangers

[Vanboi123]

Your class doesn't need buffage. It needs to stay where it is and have the abilities that it has fixed.


Your analogy would have worked if you had stated that you had a dollar in the bank but the teller refused to give it to you.

You're obviously clueless and do not play monk, we are a dps class with much less utility than a bard yet we do the same damage, thanks for telling everyone here that you know nothing at all so we can further ignore all your posts (but im pretty sure that was the case to begin with), none of our damage skills are broken, they are simply patheticly weak and dont perform the same way as the other classes skills


Monks need TONS of buffs and the devs have already started doing, although its been far to long and its still far to little

[Mustang68]

FD is not utility...thats like saying invis is utility and like saying damage should be lowered based on your class having invis, no, monks should be right under rogues in dps and above rangers

Hmm..how the hell would rangers survive then? As soon as anything gets to melee range, rangers start to suffer, much like rogues do. If my ranger gets jumped by something at melee (say an even con 3-dot) it is very often time to run unless the ranger lands a crit. Monks, with enhanced or FIXED evade/dodge (that I mentioned before I think needs to be improved in all stances) should have the skills to survive such a battle with slightly lower dps. The reason being - the monk exists to fight at melee range so an even-level 3 dot should be defeatable at melee range. The ranger or rogue should only have an "easier" time with the same 3-dot if they get off their situational starters. If the ranger or rogue starts at melee with that 3-dot, they should have a much harder time than the monk. So, yes, monks should have the best melee dps, but if you factor in the situational starting shots/attacks of rangers and rogues, they should be higher if they get them off. Seems simple to me.

[DCpunk]

FD is not utility...thats like saying invis is utility and like saying damage should be lowered based on your class having invis, no, monks should be right under rogues in dps and above rangers

Rogues, rangers, monks, and bards should all be right at about the same DPS wise. Just like all healers should have the same relative healing ability.

FD is utility. It's a pulling utility.

[DCpunk]

You're obviously clueless and do not play monk, we are a dps class with much less utility than a bard yet we do the same damage, thanks for telling everyone here that you know nothing at all so we can further ignore all your posts (but im pretty sure that was the case to begin with), none of our damage skills are broken, they are simply patheticly weak and dont perform the same way as the other classes skills


Monks need TONS of buffs and the devs have already started doing, although its been far to long and its still far to little


/cry

WE WANT TO BE UBER!


P.S. most classes need nerfs right now, and they're getting them. You can cry all you want but your vision is not the same as the Sigils.

[Soluss]

Rogues, rangers, monks, and bards should all be right at about the same DPS wise. Just like all healers should have the same relative healing ability.

FD is utility. It's a pulling utility.


So you are saying that rogues, rangers, monks and bards should be about the same DPS?


Im not sure I agree with FD being utility though. Utility, to me, is something that enhances you and others within a group. You also call it a pulling utility. You cannot use FD to pull in its current state.

[DCpunk]

So you are saying that rogues, rangers, monks and bards should be about the same DPS?

Yup. You know why? Sigil works on the archetype system and has basically said that any class under any archetype should be able to do their basic job (in this case, DPS) equally well.

Im not sure I agree with FD being utility though. Utility, to me, is something that enhances you and others within a group. You also call it a pulling utility. You cannot use FD to pull in its current state.

So, being able to split mobs does not increase the effectiveness of a group?

And you may not be able to, which makes it's utility broken. So, the utility needs fixed. The class does not, however, need buffed. If anything, rangers need a nerf - at least this is what Sigil seems to have in their design plans for offensive fighters.

[Jinpo]

Sooooo... what we've learned is that you're being a drama queen. Case closed.

Reading comprehension is something you should work at.

Monks should be #1 in melee dps, bar none. No, not even rogues should match us "over a long fight" or "with backstab" or whatever. I am so tired of this mantra being chanted over and over and over about rogue dps must be number 1. ranger dps must be equal to monks.

The class with the least utility should do the most damage. The class with the worst mitigation should do the most damage. That class is the monk.

That is the way of things.

[Soluss]

Yup. You know why? Sigil works on the archetype system and has basically said that any class under any archetype should be able to do their basic job (in this case, DPS) equally well.



So, being able to split mobs does not increase the effectiveness of a group?

And you may not be able to, which makes it's utility broken. So, the utility needs fixed. The class does not, however, need buffed. If anything, rangers need a nerf - at least this is what Sigil seems to have in their design plans for offensive fighters.


Well thank you for saying what I have been trying to tell you. Monk DPS is NOWHERE near a ranger and a rogues DPS. It is close to a bards DPS just slightly higher. If a bard however had a really good weapon then the bard would out DPS us as well. So either the monk needs buffed in DPS and its utility fixed, Or the ranger and rogue need nerfage. Otherwise we are not equal like you just said we should be.

Yes being able to split mobs increases the effectiveness of a group, yes it broken and needs to be fixed. Otherwise it is not utility in its current form.

Anyhow you just stated in your last post everything I have been trying to say to you. Thanks.

[DCpunk]

Reading comprehension is something you should work at.

Monks should be #1 in melee dps, bar none. No, not even rogues should match us "over a long fight" or "with backstab" or whatever. I am so tired of this mantra being chanted over and over and over about rogue dps must be number 1. ranger dps must be equal to monks.

The class with the least utility should do the most damage. The class with the worst mitigation should do the most damage. That class is the monk.

That is the way of things.



ME MUST BE BEST OR ME CRY LIKE BABY!


Sorry, that's all I'm seeing there.

[Calibix]

So, the utility is there, it's just broken? Yeah?

You obviously don't get it. FD is not utility. Maybe in some very skewed sense of the word. Utility, in mmo's at least, would probably be described as something that brings benefit to a group. FD does not bring any benefit to a group. Before you try to say that it is utility, I'll explain why it isn't. Being able to FD and rez people up where you died is not utility. First off all, 2 other classes get FD which would work just as well in that situation. Secondly, it's not very reliable when your in an xp group.

FD for split pulling is also not necessarily utility either. Mez pulls accomplish the same thing. Bards lull pulling is much more effective/faster/reliable.

Basically, it comes down to the monks being the best at nothing, and the worst at just about everything (when compared to other offensive fighters).

There is zero reason why, given the choice, a group would take a monk over anyother offensive fighter.

[DCpunk]

Well thank you for saying what I have been trying to tell you. Monk DPS is NOWHERE near a ranger and a rogues DPS. It is close to a bards DPS just slightly higher.


Right, and as I've been saying:

Ranger and rogue nerf inc soon.

[Calibix]

Yeah I know, god forbid that I post problems about a subpar class that is continually ignored. God forbid your precious shamans and clerics get a mitigation nerf too.

Try playing a monk up to lvl 30 and see how sub par it is. Then come back and tell me that there is nothing wrong with the class. Or dont even do that. Take your shaman and remove half of your heals from your hot bar. Then take and remove all but 2 buffs from your hot bar. Only use your buffs half of your played time becuase the other half can be considered broke. See how you compare to the other healers playing like that. That is what it is like to play a monk.

Soluss, if you were a women, I'd ask you to marry me.

[DCpunk]

You obviously don't get it. FD is not utility. Maybe in some very skewed sense of the word. Utility, in mmo's at least, would probably be described as something that brings benefit to a group. FD does not bring any benefit to a group. Before you try to say that it is utility, I'll explain why it isn't. Being able to FD and rez people up where you died is not utility. First off all, 2 other classes get FD which would work just as well in that situation.

How is that not benefitting the group? Benefitting the group is utility, right?

Secondly, it's not very reliable when your in an xp group.

So it obviously needs some fixing. No arguments there.

FD for split pulling is also not necessarily utility either. Mez pulls accomplish the same thing. Bards lull pulling is much more effective/faster/reliable.

Just because other abilities of other classes do the same thing does not negate the fact that they are ALL utilities.

Basically, it comes down to the monks being the best at nothing, and the worst at just about everything (when compared to other offensive fighters).

There is zero reason why, given the choice, a group would take a monk over anyother offensive fighter.


Here's my problem with this: You are saying that you want to be chosen over another class. You're not asking for equality.

Is that starting to make sense yet?

[Calibix]

Your class doesn't need buffage. It needs to stay where it is and have the abilities that it has fixed.


Your analogy would have worked if you had stated that you had a dollar in the bank but the teller refused to give it to you.


For a guy who never played a monk, you seem to know a lot about what needs to be done to balance our class.

I definetly am anti-nerfing of other classes to make a specific class more balanced. However, nerfs in some situations are required (case in point, the mitigation decrease to clerics, shamans, and disciples).

The thing is, even if our abilities were all working correctly, we'd still have about 20-30 abilities less than other classes. Furthermore, we'd still be left with zero utility, and subpar dps. The dps/utility balance for monks is pathetic.

Monks were the worst class in beta pre-revamp. Rogues a close 2nd. After the revamp, monks abilities were actually working, but they were still crap. Rogues never got a true beta revamp, but the changes made post-release were quite beneficial (so I hear from my rogue friends, I haven't played a rogue) and they continue to recieve fine tuning. Post-release, monks have seen 4 nerfs (including the bare-handed nerf coming tomorrow) and no true gains other than soaring leap getting fixed (can't comment on specific styles other than dragon, which is the exact same as when the game launched).

Granted the evasion and crit nerfs affected all classes, but they affected monks much more so. The reasons: Monks are dependant on critical hits to do effective dps. As far as I'm aware, monks are the only class with advanced finishers, that can only be used when a finisher crits (however, advanced finishers routinely do less damage than the finisher that precedes it /boggle. This is one of the most frustrating facets of playing a monk, watching your "highest damage abilities" do less than your generic ones).

Secondly, the evasion nerf hurt monks the most, because they decided to throw in 2 nerfs to style specific evasion abilities (harmonius and drunken). I'm a dragon monk, but have grouped w/ a few harmonius monks. After level 20, every harmonius monk was about 65% evasion or higher. Granted even I feel that was a little high, the nerfs brought them down to something like 25-30%.

[Calibix]

How is that not benefitting the group? Benefitting the group is utility, right?



So it obviously needs some fixing. No arguments there.



Just because other abilities of other classes do the same thing does not negate the fact that they are ALL utilities.




Here's my problem with this: You are saying that you want to be chosen over another class. You're not asking for equality.

Is that starting to make sense yet?


You still misunderstand. I do want equality. I'm saying that as it currently stands, no one in there right mind would choose a monk over any other offensive fighter, because they do not provide anything to a group, that any other offensive couldn't do better.

Is that starting to make sense for you yet shaman? Or are you still to wrapped up in your healer uberness that you want everyother class to stay crappy so you can continue to be uber? Go post elsewhere, because all your doing is simply detracting from the people who are trying to make informed, constructive posts about the monks class. You are neither informed, or constructive.

[DCpunk]

For a guy who never played a monk, you seem to know a lot about what needs to be done to balance our class.

I definetly am anti-nerfing of other classes to make a specific class more balanced. However, nerfs in some situations are required (case in point, the mitigation decrease to clerics, shamans, and disciples).

I think that's the point. Pretty much all classes need nerfs right now to put them more in line with what the idea was for mob cons. I see a trend: offensive fighters, class by class, getting nerfed a bit with each patch. So, based on what we've seen so far it stands to reason that rangers and rogues will get some nerfage soon.

[Calibix]

Rogues, rangers, monks, and bards should all be right at about the same DPS wise. Just like all healers should have the same relative healing ability.

FD is utility. It's a pulling utility.

Ok, so they should all be at the same dps. But bards and rangers should get more utility than rogues and monks? Oh, that makes perfect sense! /sarcasmoff

Yes, healers should have about the same relative healing ability. Key word relative. Clerics get the best direct heals, and can wear plate, thus they do the worst dps. Bloodmages have great HoT's and good dps, but are forced to wear cloth. Shamans get the best buffs in game, wear medium, heal for slightly less than clerics, and do a bit more dps than clerics. (this is from my grouping observations, I've only got a cleric alt. I am not foolish enough to make strong claims about classes I haven't played thouroughly).

Notice how there is a give/get relationship in the case of the healers. This same concept holds for all archtypes. The problem is monks aren't giving, and they sure as hell aren't getting. No utility, plus dps that is comparable (and imo opinion, lower) than the lowest dps offensive fighters, bards, and you think we are fine? Get real....

Monks (and rogues) are supposed to be pure dps classes. Consequently, they do not get much utility. I was completely aware of this when I rolled my monk. I wanted to be a pure dps class, with a touch of utility. As it stands, I'd have been better off rolling a rangers since they are #1 dps (sorcerors might be close if they can chain CV), and get a good amount of utility.

If you want me to more clearly illustrate why monks are pathetic on the dps/utility ratio, I will reluctanly do so just to get that point in your head.

[Jinpo]

ME MUST BE BEST OR ME CRY LIKE BABY!


For those of us who have played monks, friars for more than 7-8 years in several versions of MMOs, and monks in D&D, I can tell you this:

Monk dps should be beyond all melee, because that's the core definition of the class, regardless of game, medium or decade. A cloth-wearing fighter with no mitigation, no utliyy, yet melee skills second to none.

Sorry, that's all I'm seeing there.

Your inability to argue the facts prove your ignorance on the topic. That's probably because it's you're a slack-jawed troll without any reading comprehension skills.

I also suspect that you've never played another MMO in your life, or much less another class in VG. If you had, you'd realize that everything we're saying is true.

That's what I'm seeing here.

Now how's about you stfu, and let the grownups fix things?

[Soluss]

Here's my problem with this: You are saying that you want to be chosen over another class. You're not asking for equality.

Is that starting to make sense yet?

Well, atleast for me, What I am saying is that monks lack the dps AND the utility the other offensive fighters too. I see where you are comming from with the equality. That is all I am really asking for. I dont want to be superior to the other classes. All I have been trying to say this whole time is that we are subpar to them.

I think you miss what people are saying though. It may be the way it is worded. What people are trying to say is this... Rangers are better dps by far. Rogues are better dps by far. Rangers have more utility as well. Rogues I would say have about the same utility. Bards are basically about equal dps but have far more utility. I think what people are saying is the monk needs to be better at one area or the other to make them equally as useful in groups. Currently the monk is the worst in both dps and utility. So if they made them better at one or the other then the other classes, it would in a sense equal them out.

It would make sense to me, when you say we should all be the same dps, if we all had the same amount of utility but that utility all did something different from the other classes. The way the classes are designed though that is not the case. Take a bard for example. His utility is by far way more than any other class. If he were to have the same dps as the rest of the classes then why would anyone play anything other then a bard? Staying with the same scenario for the other class subs.. If all heavy tanks mitigate the same, taunt the same, do the same damage, all have the same buffs then why is there a warrior, dk, paladin... why not just have 1 and scrap the rest. You cant have the same exact skills as everyone else with different names. Classes still need to be unique, otherwise you might as well just have 4 classes.. Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Caster. The way to balance them is this (atleast in the offensive fighter scenario) We have 4 classes so..

1. Have highest DPS but lower survivability and Utility
2. Have highest survivability but lower DPS and utility
3. Have highest utility but lower survivability and DPS
4. Have moderate utility moderate survivabilty and moderate DPS. But be better then none of the other classes in any of it.

Does that make sense? Currently none of the classes fit this scenario..

1. Rangers equal to rogues, bards, and monks in survivabilty( we all take hits equally as well). Second best utility (only the bards exceed utility to rangers). I would say rangers and rogues about equal at being #1 in DPS.

2. Rogues equal to rangers,bards, monks in suvivability. Equal to monks in utility(below rangers and way below bards). I would say rangers and rogues about equal at being #1 in DPS.

3. Bards equal to rangers, rogues and monks in survivability. Bar none the best utility of all (better then rangers, way better then rogues and monks). I would say right around the same DPS as a monk.

then we have:

4. Monks equal to rangers, rogues and bards in survivability. Equal to rogues in utility (below rangers and way below bards). I would say about equal to bards dps.

As you can see by looking at this. Monks are not in balance with there counterparts. Why? Because the monk is the lowest dps along side bards. However the bard has the best utility to compensate. Monks have the lowest utility along side rogues. However the rogues have the best DPS to compensate. Our survivability is all the same so we have nothing to compensate for both being the lowest dps and the lowest utility.

[Vanboi123]

Bards dps is well above monks, you guys must not be macroing your eaon's bellow with your skills or something, the diffrence comes from when i equip a rare sword my dps goes very high but my monks still stays pretty much the same

[Kaori]

This is DCpunk:

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/search.php?searchid=205227

A troll. Dont feed trolls.

[Soluss]

This is DCpunk:

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/search.php?searchid=205227

A troll. Dont feed trolls.

Nothing there

[Kaori]

Nothing there

Link (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/search.php?searchid=205227)

Does this work? ;)

[Soluss]

Link (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/search.php?searchid=205227)

Does this work? ;)

same as other link says... sorry no matches

[Eeowan]

FD is not utility...thats like saying invis is utility and like saying damage should be lowered based on your class having invis, no, monks should be right under rogues in dps and above rangers
agreed % 100, but rangers outdmgin rogues atm and rogues got nerf today :(

[Aginor]

Yawn :cry:

Bye

Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

Could care less..

[Warz]

DC Punk, if I'm getting you correctly. You're saying they should nerf all 14 other classes rather than simply improve Monks?

Monks are probably the worst class currently for said reasons. Not useful in groups and quite bad at soloing also, when compared to most other classes.

All DPS equal for offensive classes? No, that's not their intent. Lets use Protection classes as an example. Do they intend to have Paladins and Dread Knights be able to tank as well as the Warrior when the other two both get magical abilities on top of what the Warrior gets? I don't think so... quite certain they intend for Warriors to be the best tankers, even if only be a relatively small margin. The Warriors have less in terms of abilities with the lacking magical powers and therefore get an advantage in tanking. Same with the Offensive Fighters. Some get better abilities in some spots so they in turn get better DPS in the focus of the Offensive Fighter classes. The Protectives revolve around tanking ability, the Offensives revolve around DPS.

As for Sigil's view, I believe Monk is supposed to have the best sustained DPS where Rogues are more of a brust DPS. Either way they're both supposed to be the top DPS of the Offensive Fighters. As we sit currently the Monk is sitting somewhere near the lowest with Bards (Who are intended to be the lowest) or even below them some argue.

Anyway, I really don't think Sigil messed up 14 classes and Monk is the only one they got right and will nerf everyone else to set things straight. I invite you to play a Monk up a bit if you think the issue isn't real. The hope for these arguements is above all else a call to get attention to our class. We're not asking to be the best by any means, we're asking for Sigil to come, see our arguements, and review our class and balance it with the other classes as they see fit. We would be happy getting such attention because we know with how much our class currently sucks the only thing they'd even think about doing is buffing us. If Clerics or other overpowered classes got Sigil's undivided attention on balancing they would certainly be nerfed since they can solo four dot mobs of higher levels, luckily that's already gotten Sigil's attention and hence they got nerfed, but clearly still need a lot more. All we ask for is attention and addressing the issues, we can safely trust that if they observe the issues they'll most likely be improving the class.

If you play a Monk, you might understand the complaints. As an outside observer you don't have to deal with it and can say such things. If you have zero experience with something (You playing as a Monk for example) you usually don't know much about it, it's a basic occurance in nature and the world over by billions of people. Without trying something you don't understand it, you learn through trying or being taught. You clearly don't have an interest in learning, so perhaps you should try the Monk class. If you refuse to try it or except the arguements of those who have experienced it you really are basing your arguements on absolutely nothing.

Changes take time and all that, but from word I've heard is the last time the Monk as a class was focused on was Beta 3 which I believe is over a year ago. We realize Sigil has a lot on their hands with being forced by SOE to release the game before it was ready and they're scrambling to fix it up to a released game quality. However, there's a pressing issue in class balance due to the early release also and it'd be nice to have everything balanced out at least somewhat decently before they delve deep into gameplay improving features, or of all things adding content.

I, for one, hope this doesn't turn out like WoW for me. I played a Warlock off the bat and realized after almost getting 60 the class wasn't so hot. In fact, it was non-debatably the worst class by far until it's review. Anyway, I ended up quitting the game after about 6-7 months of playing because I was pretty tired of being a horrible class. Then after they reviewed them (Which should have been the first reviewed class since they were not only considered the worst by about everyone, but the least played for a reason) they became the best class and as far as I've heard are still way up there with BC. Anyway the point is, Monks have been waiting a long time already, are probably the current worst class in the game and the least played (Doubtfully because the thought of a DPS machine that mainly uses martial arts isn't appealing, in fact to me it sounds like one of the sweetest classes in MMOs... pity so many MMOs don't have them) class for a reason.

Anyway, you can continue to make your uneducated arguements and, quite frankly, make yourself look like an utter jerk and moron or you can listen to those with first hand experience (The best kind) and accept it... or even easier yet you can not troll our threads and forums in the first place and you don't have to share your opinion about it. Other classes might be asking for buffs all around, I honestly think all the Monks care about at this point is a couple hours of Sigil's time to look them over because we know they'll find the blatant issues with the current condition of Monks and fix them if they did put in the time.