Avair, Elrar, Cylus - pls reply - DRK issues

[Velzevul]

Hey guys, what's up?

This patch #1 has been extremely disappointing to us DRK community. This is becoming on the border of insane. Let me walk over some quick promises given to us and blatant things that need to be fixed and are not getting the attention they require.

-----------------------------------------------------
I believe Avair stated some weeks ago, and Xaices can confirm - SOD didn't need to be nerfed, and it will be reverted back to original state next patch. Well... 2 patches passed, and no reversion happened. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our DC doesn't seem to work, this is our most important class defining ability. And it is FLAKY, inconsistent, and all other kinds of issues. How would paladins feel if their heals were not landing 50% of the time at all? What about warriors, would they feel well if their Myrmidon's gift had a 50% chance to fail? FIX DRK DC. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Do DRK have rescues? Ohh I'm sorry, I must be blind... 32 endurance for a basic rescue, THAT DOES 1 DAMAGE. 1!!!!!. We are not even sure if it adds hate as the tooltip says either, the only thing we are sure it does is turns the mob to us for 2 attacks, and than back to FFA Aggro. Well, that's a 1/3rd of my endurance pool. Wars get them for under 20sh endur, Paladins i'm not even sure. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our infamous "Ohh crap!" skill, WoD... Well, I am lvl 33 DRK, it does 1300 damage and I got about 150 intel +/- buffs. So I can say I am average intel DRK at least. I SWING WITH MY 2 HANDER FOR 400 COMBAT DMG AND I CRIT FOR OVER 1500 AT TIMES (using 44 dps heroic 2h sword). Ability is on long refresh timer, has no other benefits than low end damage that isn't much but another Malice crit only without a chain that follows, and is highly resistable and mitigatable. Gosh, I get better benefit from using the mana for another Torture than WoD. Please Comment...
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just the start of talking about our issues. Other numerous things include but are not limited to buggy Shadow Step, buggy Stances, and some other things that are not as important but equally annoying.

P.S. MOST IMPORTANT: you guys promised to fix SoD back, and you did not. That destroyed your credibility and it destroyed belief of the class, that "everything will be OK". You need to work that credibility back, going back on a direct promise like that is seriously hurting Sigil as a company and developer image overall.

Thanks for reading.

[hawnz]

WTB cull!

[warakus]

Hey guys, what's up?

This patch #1 has been extremely disappointing to us DRK community. This is becoming on the border of insane. Let me walk over some quick promises given to us and blatant things that need to be fixed and are not getting the attention they require.

-----------------------------------------------------
I believe Avair stated some weeks ago, and Xaices can confirm - SOD didn't need to be nerfed, and it will be reverted back to original state next patch. Well... 2 patches passed, and no reversion happened. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our DC doesn't seem to work, this is our most important class defining ability. And it is FLAKY, inconsistent, and all other kinds of issues. How would paladins feel if their heals were not landing 50% of the time at all? What about warriors, would they feel well if their Myrmidon's gift had a 50% chance to fail? FIX DRK DC. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Do DRK have rescues? Ohh I'm sorry, I must be blind... 32 endurance for a basic rescue, THAT DOES 1 DAMAGE. 1!!!!!. We are not even sure if it adds hate as the tooltip says either, the only thing we are sure it does is turns the mob to us for 2 attacks, and than back to FFA Aggro. Well, that's a 1/3rd of my endurance pool. Wars get them for under 20sh endur, Paladins i'm not even sure. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our infamous "Ohh crap!" skill, WoD... Well, I am lvl 33 DRK, it does 1300 damage and I got about 150 intel +/- buffs. So I can say I am average intel DRK at least. I SWING WITH MY 2 HANDER FOR 400 COMBAT DMG AND I CRIT FOR OVER 1500 AT TIMES (using 44 dps heroic 2h sword). Ability is on long refresh timer, has no other benefits than low end damage that isn't much but another Malice crit only without a chain that follows, and is highly resistable and mitigatable. Gosh, I get better benefit from using the mana for another Torture than WoD. Please Comment...
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just the start of talking about our issues. Other numerous things include but are not limited to buggy Shadow Step, buggy Stances, and some other things that are not as important but equally annoying.

P.S. MOST IMPORTANT: you guys promised to fix SoD back, and you did not. That destroyed your credibility and it destroyed belief of the class, that "everything will be OK". You need to work that credibility back, going back on a direct promise like that is seriously hurting Sigil as a company and developer image overall.

Thanks for reading.

/Agree completely.

Someone give us some answers....

[Zarrae Zik'Rah]

/Agree completely.

Someone give us some answers....

I think this lies at the heart of things... there has been SO LITTLE communication with the DKs.

We've seen a neglected promise with Scythe of Doom, we've seen a class-defining ability (Cull - life tap) be pulled entirely, we've seen Word of Doom go from "ZOMG! Harm Touch!" to "Oh, let's see if we can get double-digit numbers today...oh..no, it resisted again...", and we've seen damage slowly spiral away with no explination as to why...not to mention that various levels of DC still don't function properly...or at all.

The class morale is slipping away. Folks are getting frustrated and are throwing their hands up.

You want to fix morale? COMMUNICATE with your classes.

You had a reason for ditching Cull? TELL us why. We might dissagree with you, but atleast we'll know the reason.

You WANT WoD to be an iffy ability that works 10% of the time (if that much)... TELL us that it's a sketchy, CYA ability that is designed to drain your resources more than it is designed to deal damage...atleast then, we'll pull it off of our bars instead of vainly trying to figure out why it isn't working.

You can't figure out why DC3 and 5 are still broken? That's fine, TELL us that something in the code's borked and you have people on it.

As it is, DKs have become Vanguard's proverbial 'Red Headed Step-child.'

[Plankowner00]

-----------------------------------------------------
I believe Avair stated some weeks ago, and Xaices can confirm - SOD didn't need to be nerfed, and it will be reverted back to original state next patch. Well... 2 patches passed, and no reversion happened. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our DC doesn't seem to work, this is our most important class defining ability. And it is FLAKY, inconsistent, and all other kinds of issues. How would paladins feel if their heals were not landing 50% of the time at all? What about warriors, would they feel well if their Myrmidon's gift had a 50% chance to fail? FIX DRK DC. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Do DRK have rescues? Ohh I'm sorry, I must be blind... 32 endurance for a basic rescue, THAT DOES 1 DAMAGE. 1!!!!!. We are not even sure if it adds hate as the tooltip says either, the only thing we are sure it does is turns the mob to us for 2 attacks, and than back to FFA Aggro. Well, that's a 1/3rd of my endurance pool. Wars get them for under 20sh endur, Paladins i'm not even sure. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our infamous "Ohh crap!" skill, WoD... Well, I am lvl 33 DRK, it does 1300 damage and I got about 150 intel +/- buffs. So I can say I am average intel DRK at least. I SWING WITH MY 2 HANDER FOR 400 COMBAT DMG AND I CRIT FOR OVER 1500 AT TIMES (using 44 dps heroic 2h sword). Ability is on long refresh timer, has no other benefits than low end damage that isn't much but another Malice crit only without a chain that follows, and is highly resistable and mitigatable. Gosh, I get better benefit from using the mana for another Torture than WoD. Please Comment...
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just the start of talking about our issues. Other numerous things include but are not limited to buggy Shadow Step, buggy Stances, and some other things that are not as important but equally annoying.

P.S. MOST IMPORTANT: you guys promised to fix SoD back, and you did not. That destroyed your credibility and it destroyed belief of the class, that "everything will be OK". You need to work that credibility back, going back on a direct promise like that is seriously hurting Sigil as a company and developer image overall.

Thanks for reading.

Okay, so we still have an SoD nerf that goes far beyond what was stated. Seriously, it's as bad as reported, I think instead of 25% return we might be getting 2.5% return if we're lucky.

WoD line is nothing more than something to play with. It's unreliable, cost heavy and a drain on resources. When something that's 15 levels below me resists it completely, I see a little bit of a problem there.

Scourge is a high cost, low return ability and Nexus of Hatred isn't much better. If damage = hate then those really need to be tweaked a bit to either output a tremendous amount of hate or equal parts hate and damage.

Dread Countenance is still just as unreliable as it has been, DC3 and DC5 aren't working properly by reports. So that makes me wonder what else isn't working. Is my AoD actually doing anything OTHER than nerfing my damage to help my mitigation?

:rolleyes: But by Halifur I'm a happy little dark elf! I can toss a pointed stick at something!:rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way, is there any possibility that I'll actually get an ability that gives me a reason to use a shield? The reduction in damage reduces our ability to hold agro with a one handed weapon. How about something to help us out while we're going sword and board .....
..oh..
..oh..
..wait..
That's right, I can toss a pointed stick.

Silly me.

[Warhead]

Cylus posts on www.graffe.com alot. In fact, he has just posted today. Either they are just ignoring us, or dont even read this board. I am thinking ignore is probably the right choice.

[Niteflyx]

Cylus posts on www.graffe.com alot. In fact, he has just posted today. Either they are just ignoring us, or dont even read this board. I am thinking ignore is probably the right choice.

No devs have posted on the affliated vanguardfighters.com forum either. Our class lead, Xaices, does communicate what he does get from the devs to us, but there has been nothing since the SoD nerf.

All these points that were brought up are serious issues, especially our class defining ability, the one that many of our good skills are based upon, Dreadful Countenance.

[unearth]

I can tell you right now that after 100 hours of gameplay as a Dread Knight I am also very dissapointed. I quickly become very bored with the class as all i do in combat is use vexing strike, malice, the chains, and shadow step. Im not about to start leveling another class and shelving the toon until i pay another $60 and have 4 months pass by when something good finally happends to this forgotten class. I understand the game is new and all that jazz, but as stated by the poster there have been promises made and broken. And dont release a game if you have to make 20 pathetic little fixes to every class in every patch and completely ignore the worst classes.

I never use SoD, i never use WoD, i never use provoke, i never use the DC increasing ability (whats the name? lol), i never use approximately half the abilities we are given and im lvl 25.

Oh and to add, im on Varking, a team pvp server, can you say "Broken"?

[Zikkar]

Hey guys, what's up?

This patch #1 has been extremely disappointing to us DRK community. This is becoming on the border of insane. Let me walk over some quick promises given to us and blatant things that need to be fixed and are not getting the attention they require.

-----------------------------------------------------
I believe Avair stated some weeks ago, and Xaices can confirm - SOD didn't need to be nerfed, and it will be reverted back to original state next patch. Well... 2 patches passed, and no reversion happened. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our DC doesn't seem to work, this is our most important class defining ability. And it is FLAKY, inconsistent, and all other kinds of issues. How would paladins feel if their heals were not landing 50% of the time at all? What about warriors, would they feel well if their Myrmidon's gift had a 50% chance to fail? FIX DRK DC. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Do DRK have rescues? Ohh I'm sorry, I must be blind... 32 endurance for a basic rescue, THAT DOES 1 DAMAGE. 1!!!!!. We are not even sure if it adds hate as the tooltip says either, the only thing we are sure it does is turns the mob to us for 2 attacks, and than back to FFA Aggro. Well, that's a 1/3rd of my endurance pool. Wars get them for under 20sh endur, Paladins i'm not even sure. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our infamous "Ohh crap!" skill, WoD... Well, I am lvl 33 DRK, it does 1300 damage and I got about 150 intel +/- buffs. So I can say I am average intel DRK at least. I SWING WITH MY 2 HANDER FOR 400 COMBAT DMG AND I CRIT FOR OVER 1500 AT TIMES (using 44 dps heroic 2h sword). Ability is on long refresh timer, has no other benefits than low end damage that isn't much but another Malice crit only without a chain that follows, and is highly resistable and mitigatable. Gosh, I get better benefit from using the mana for another Torture than WoD. Please Comment...
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just the start of talking about our issues. Other numerous things include but are not limited to buggy Shadow Step, buggy Stances, and some other things that are not as important but equally annoying.

P.S. MOST IMPORTANT: you guys promised to fix SoD back, and you did not. That destroyed your credibility and it destroyed belief of the class, that "everything will be OK". You need to work that credibility back, going back on a direct promise like that is seriously hurting Sigil as a company and developer image overall.

Thanks for reading.

/signed


Man you got to love boards all over the place so they can ignore us better. To think everyone just knew no offical boards would be such a wonderful idea.

[Zemm]

Hey guys, what's up?

This patch #1 has been extremely disappointing to us DRK community. This is becoming on the border of insane. Let me walk over some quick promises given to us and blatant things that need to be fixed and are not getting the attention they require.

-----------------------------------------------------
I believe Avair stated some weeks ago, and Xaices can confirm - SOD didn't need to be nerfed, and it will be reverted back to original state next patch. Well... 2 patches passed, and no reversion happened. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our DC doesn't seem to work, this is our most important class defining ability. And it is FLAKY, inconsistent, and all other kinds of issues. How would paladins feel if their heals were not landing 50% of the time at all? What about warriors, would they feel well if their Myrmidon's gift had a 50% chance to fail? FIX DRK DC. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Do DRK have rescues? Ohh I'm sorry, I must be blind... 32 endurance for a basic rescue, THAT DOES 1 DAMAGE. 1!!!!!. We are not even sure if it adds hate as the tooltip says either, the only thing we are sure it does is turns the mob to us for 2 attacks, and than back to FFA Aggro. Well, that's a 1/3rd of my endurance pool. Wars get them for under 20sh endur, Paladins i'm not even sure. Please comment.
-----------------------------------------------------
Our infamous "Ohh crap!" skill, WoD... Well, I am lvl 33 DRK, it does 1300 damage and I got about 150 intel +/- buffs. So I can say I am average intel DRK at least. I SWING WITH MY 2 HANDER FOR 400 COMBAT DMG AND I CRIT FOR OVER 1500 AT TIMES (using 44 dps heroic 2h sword). Ability is on long refresh timer, has no other benefits than low end damage that isn't much but another Malice crit only without a chain that follows, and is highly resistable and mitigatable. Gosh, I get better benefit from using the mana for another Torture than WoD. Please Comment...
-----------------------------------------------------

This is just the start of talking about our issues. Other numerous things include but are not limited to buggy Shadow Step, buggy Stances, and some other things that are not as important but equally annoying.

P.S. MOST IMPORTANT: you guys promised to fix SoD back, and you did not. That destroyed your credibility and it destroyed belief of the class, that "everything will be OK". You need to work that credibility back, going back on a direct promise like that is seriously hurting Sigil as a company and developer image overall.

Thanks for reading.

/signed

[Cobalty2004]

Overwhelm, a Warrior rescue, costs 38 Endurance.......

It can crit for 1k, but it only lasts 2 attacks.

[Meldryn]

I agree whole-heartedly. The longer I play my DK, the less faith I have that the devs have any sort of vision for the role of the class in end-game. As it is, we're inferior to other tanks in mitigation, agro control, rescues, and utility. Vexing Strike, our basic melee abilitiy, does not even add a weakness for god's sake. Without a 2-hander, we have no chance of holding agro against even a semi-geared dps class. Or healers for that matter. Thanks for buffing Disciple and Cleric Damage. Disciples already out-dpsed me to the point where I had to pray to hold agro, and depending on how much they buffed Cleric damage, they'll be replacing DK's as tanks.

/rant off
/plays with javelin

[Demise]

/signed

My NORMAL wracks/ruins do more damage than WoD.

[Tarikko]

DK's are vanguards red headed stepchild?

Funny I seem to do fine, in fact more than fine.

Look at any class issue thread and someone will refer to their class as being the red headed stepchild.

Meldryn said: As it is, we're inferior to other tanks in mitigation, agro control, rescues, and utility

Do you play a DK? this is laughable. I can pull aggro from any other tank (int ftw) and PuG's actually make comments about how they love tanks that can keep hate, but rescue needs some work I agree(sometimes it doesnt work and the endurance cost needs to come down not to mention paladin rescue does twice the amt of dmg). Every other tank was brought down to our level of mitigation, and still, I have no problem mitigating damage what so ever. The other 2 classes just had too much. What kind of utility do you want? group buffs? heal other? seriously.. you need to learn your role and the DK will become insanely fun to you.

To everyone here jumping on the bandwagon: Whining is annoying, knock that shit off.


That being said, there ARE issues which need to be looked at.

1. Can someone confirm DC is working properly? (its all just speculation but id like to hear it so I can stop reading about it in whine threads)
2. Will SoD be returned to a useful state? -confirmed by class lead that it would be changed back, unknown if this is true
3. If you use an endurance cost ability before ravaging darkness has a chance to fill you to 100%, it doesnt work half the time. (and usually this means by the time it fills you to 100, you have 3-4 secs of using it)
4. Will we get more shield attacks? right now I only use bleak to create a stun, other than that its a bit meh.
5. Can bleak foeman be put on a separate cooldown from the rest of the abilities? So say I could use it and immediately hit vexing or malice. This would make using bleak much more fun and involving instead of using it to shield bash (which shows up in log as vexing or malice)
6. Word of Doom needs a HUGE revamp, this spell rarely gets used. -known by devs, unknown what/when changes will occur
7. Balanced stance has dodge -known by devs

As far as shadow step, just jump before you use it, or you'll probably lose it on uneven ground.

I've been looking around for DK mobs to learn cull from, but it may be a while before its discovered. I'm 31.

[Velzevul]

what worries me also, is that I see developers replying to all kinds of posts by other classes, but I have yet to see a solid reply on War, Pal, DRK concerns.

[Tarikko]

what worries me also, is that I see developers replying to all kinds of posts by other classes, but I have yet to see a solid reply on War, Pal, DRK concerns.

I thought paladins had a ton of patch notes this patch? Didnt they get some love?

[Valamir]

is not that cause a DK can steal aggro from the MT mean that DK have an huge aggro...

the MT can't reach its full DPS potential... stuns, debuffs, stam/mana drains have an huge hit on its damage and so its hate generation

for this reason is quite normal that a supporting def fighter, who have not strong deaggro skills, can easilly draw aggro from the MT

from my experience fighters have best hate then DKs and then pallies who compensate with rescuse and seem better than us in multi mob aggro control


balanced stance problem is not just about dodge... is not working at all... look at your defence in off stance (and in particular parry and avo values) then put it on and look again... nothing changed


jump before shadowstep doesn't help too much too had many los or invalid even with it, still sometimes in rought terrain i use it :P


the problem is that we have a lot of skills that doesn't scale well (our devour debuff and all our spell) or they are exceptionally inefficent (vile, wod, sod, black wind, incarnate...)

even some of the costs are a bit unbalanced... little example..

chain I snare for 20-30s and cost 45 (if i remember right)
chain II snare for 25-35s and cost 87 (again goin with memory)

now... why i should spend twice to get an average of 5 more seconds when i can cast chain I twice and snare for a bit less than a min? :P

there are tons of issues like this one even if probably is quite common among all classes as the game was rushed and is quite evident that there is not any balance among various classes with some clearly unfinished

so i don't think we are the unlucky class of VG but still there are many many issues that needs to be addressed

[Vaedar]

I can pull aggro from any other tank (int ftw) and PuG's actually make comments about how they love tanks that can keep hate, but rescue needs some work I agree *snip*

Please enlighten me on how INT effects aggro.

[Shawnsan]

As it is, DKs have become Vanguard's proverbial 'Red Headed Step-child.'
Get in line BEHIND the disciples.

I can't believe I chose to try the two most ignored classes in the game...

[Tarikko]

Please enlighten me on how INT effects aggro.

1. It was confirmed by Avair (iirc from the post on vg fighters)
2. Add a point of INT and watch your hate ability number. IE mouse over torment and then add a point of int

I'm not sure if this was a real question or if you thought maybe you'd make me look stupid. Either way, now you know :D

[Tarikko]

Get in line BEHIND the disciples.

I can't believe I chose to try the two most ignored classes in the game...

you might try throwing yourself on the floor and holding your breath, that might get you more attention and sympathy.

This weeks lesson from GI joe: Learn to play a DK

[hawnz]

1. It was confirmed by Avair (iirc from the post on vg fighters)
2. Add a point of INT and watch your hate ability number. IE mouse over torment and then add a point of int

I'm not sure if this was a real question or if you thought maybe you'd make me look stupid. Either way, now you know :D

i've just been maxing str/dex right now, so id be interested in knowing how much extra hate we get per int. anyone wanna test that out for me?

[shrikke]

i've just been maxing str/dex right now, so id be interested in knowing how much extra hate we get per int. anyone wanna test that out for me?

Facinating. I figured we would be wisdom in the begining and get screwed over late by switching us to int like the early eq days! Oh, right not a sk, ok. So, does anyone have any other gems to add? We are int based then? Facinating. WTB int based plate, dejavu lol

[Tarikko]

Facinating. I figured we would be wisdom in the begining and get screwed over late by switching us to int like the early eq days! Oh, right not a sk, ok. So, does anyone have any other gems to add? We are int based then? Facinating. WTB int based plate, dejavu lol

I agree, I'd like to see some more itemization with int for DK's

[shrikke]

I agree, I'd like to see some more itemization with int for DK's

Heck, I am a smith, would like to see recipies for int based plate also. I can't even make plate with int bonus currently, but then I am only 14 in smithing.

Serious question. My pet in eq was a joke after first couple years. This pet is worse. Does anyone even have a use for...oh wait that's a DE ability, that allows me to shoot a bow as good as a ranger though I can't be one because im a DE, but I get a really cool, ok, really lame pet, hmmm, vote, what's more useful to a DE DK, a pet or a pointy throwing stick?

EDIT: The pet LOOKS cool at least, I guess that's something. Pointy sticks don't look cool, but they are more useful, that's my vote...

[Valamir]

a bit OT but the pet is good....

speaking about def fighters it adds 15% to AC

you have to activate its buff when you summon it then you are ok for next 15m :)

[Vaedar]

1. It was confirmed by Avair (iirc from the post on vg fighters)
2. Add a point of INT and watch your hate ability number. IE mouse over torment and then add a point of int

I'm not sure if this was a real question or if you thought maybe you'd make me look stupid. Either way, now you know :D

No, it was a real question, but your answer confirmed my suspicions.

I'm not sure on how efficient that is, but i'll put a few points in INT tonight just to see how much it affects the two +hate spells we have.

[shrikke]

a bit OT but the pet is good....

speaking about def fighters it adds 15% to AC

you have to activate its buff when you summon it then you are ok for next 15m :)

Cool. I had no idea I could get a buff from the pet. Does anyone with higher than 14 in smithing know if there are any INT based plate recipies for us?

[Meldryn]

DK's are vanguards red headed stepchild?

Funny I seem to do fine, in fact more than fine.

Look at any class issue thread and someone will refer to their class as being the red headed stepchild.

Meldryn said: As it is, we're inferior to other tanks in mitigation, agro control, rescues, and utility

Do you play a DK? this is laughable. I can pull aggro from any other tank (int ftw) and PuG's actually make comments about how they love tanks that can keep hate, but rescue needs some work I agree(sometimes it doesnt work and the endurance cost needs to come down not to mention paladin rescue does twice the amt of dmg). Every other tank was brought down to our level of mitigation, and still, I have no problem mitigating damage what so ever. The other 2 classes just had too much. What kind of utility do you want? group buffs? heal other? seriously.. you need to learn your role and the DK will become insanely fun to you.

To everyone here jumping on the bandwagon: Whining is annoying, knock that shit off.


That being said, there ARE issues which need to be looked at.

1. Can someone confirm DC is working properly? (its all just speculation but id like to hear it so I can stop reading about it in whine threads)
2. Will SoD be returned to a useful state? -confirmed by class lead that it would be changed back, unknown if this is true
3. If you use an endurance cost ability before ravaging darkness has a chance to fill you to 100%, it doesnt work half the time. (and usually this means by the time it fills you to 100, you have 3-4 secs of using it)
4. Will we get more shield attacks? right now I only use bleak to create a stun, other than that its a bit meh.
5. Can bleak foeman be put on a separate cooldown from the rest of the abilities? So say I could use it and immediately hit vexing or malice. This would make using bleak much more fun and involving instead of using it to shield bash (which shows up in log as vexing or malice)
6. Word of Doom needs a HUGE revamp, this spell rarely gets used. -known by devs, unknown what/when changes will occur
7. Balanced stance has dodge -known by devs

As far as shadow step, just jump before you use it, or you'll probably lose it on uneven ground.

I've been looking around for DK mobs to learn cull from, but it may be a while before its discovered. I'm 31.

You say my statements are wrong, and then you list a number of things supporting what I said. Pick one.

Our rescues are worthless. There is no reason to even use them unless you think 2 attacks where the mob is on you is worth 1/3 of your endurance.

Warriors have shouts, paladins have auras, heals, buffs, etc. What do we have that compares? DC is supposed to be our utility, but even the Devs don't seem to know if it's working.

There is a difference between agro control and agro generation. Any idiot can generate agro. Controlling agro means that you have options when you lose agro, which every tank will in certain situations. Our rescues are worthless, so we're left with only Seething Hatred. I'm sorry, but Warriors and Paladins have better options.

I have yet to hear how close other tanks are to us in mitigation, but unless they got an insane nerf, they're still ahead. We'll see how that works out.

As to not int being "ftw".... I'm Kurashasa, so I get 2 int per level. Add to that the fact that I box a Psionicist, and I guarantee my int is always higher than yours. The tooltip says that it's increasing the hate portion, but Xaices has told us repeatedly that Int does not affect hate, so we're still unclear as to whether it does, or the tooltip is simply bugged. So I'm not sure what your point is other than "lrn2play." Feel free to enlighten me on the "role of the DK." I'm sure your insights will be amusing.

[shrikke]

You say my statements are wrong, and then you list a number of things supporting what I said. Pick one.

Our rescues are worthless. There is no reason to even use them unless you think 2 attacks where the mob is on you is worth 1/3 of your endurance.

Warriors have shouts, paladins have auras, heals, buffs, etc. What do we have that compares? DC is supposed to be our utility, but even the Devs don't seem to know if it's working.

There is a difference between agro control and agro generation. Any idiot can generate agro. Controlling agro means that you have options when you lose agro, which every tank will in certain situations. Our rescues are worthless, so we're left with only Seething Hatred. I'm sorry, but Warriors and Paladins have better options.

I have yet to hear how close other tanks are to us in mitigation, but unless they got an insane nerf, they're still ahead. We'll see how that works out.

As to not int being "ftw".... I'm Kurashasa, so I get 2 int per level. Add to that the fact that I box a Psionicist, and I guarantee my int is always higher than yours. The tooltip says that it's increasing the hate portion, but Xaices has told us repeatedly that Int does not affect hate, so we're still unclear as to whether it does, or the tooltip is simply bugged. So I'm not sure what your point is other than "lrn2play." Feel free to enlighten me on the "role of the DK." I'm sure your insights will be amusing.

Wow. You are sure to get ignored now. It is clear you know what your talking about so now it will just be lies/flames or ignore =(

[Vaedar]

1. It was confirmed by Avair (iirc from the post on vg fighters)
2. Add a point of INT and watch your hate ability number. IE mouse over torment and then add a point of int

I'm not sure if this was a real question or if you thought maybe you'd make me look stupid. Either way, now you know :D

Ok, I added several points of INT. I'm a DE so I get 3 points per level anyway but wanted to test this out to see the effect.

Bottom line is you get about 1 pt of the MAX possible hate per 2 points of additional INT. From my observations, the minimum amount was not affected. That's not worth neglecting STR, DEX, and CON to raise INT.

YMMV

[hawnz]

Ok, I added several points of INT. I'm a DE so I get 3 points per level anyway but wanted to test this out to see the effect.

Bottom line is you get about 1 pt of the MAX possible hate. From my observations, the minimum amount was not affected. That's not worth neglecting STR, DEX, and CON to raise INT.

YMMV

thanks. definitely not worth the INT points.

[DrK]

Posted on the Vanguard Fighters DrK forum by Avair (class lead)

I just wanted to drop by and make a post letting you guys know that we are still looking in and tallying up the bugs, concerns, problems and everything in between with the Dread Knight. I talk to Xaices nearly everyday about the community concerns and bugs, etc.

The problem we currently have is that there are many classes and all need some work. Currently I have been working on rogue poisons and devices (which have been broken for a looong time). I was sick for a few days so that set back the schedule as well. I have a large list of things to do for the DRK and all of the issues will be addressed. Most of these changes are made in cycles so that we can keep our time managed efficiently. The best work is done while focused on one task at a time. Talisker is currently focussing on the Paladin and that is why you will see a large amount of Paladin changes. If you were not in beta you would not know that I spent a while right before release bringing the DRK up to the point you are now, just like we are currently doing with the paladin.

We encourage you to post and let us know your concerns. Xaices has my email and IM and is not afraid to throw me a line and let me know what you are thinking. I will be working on the DRK when I can, but now is not the time for large and sweeping changes.

Having said all of that I adjusted many things for the DRK just today. I increased damage on Incite, Inflame, Dark Bastion, Shield of Fear, Scythe of Doom (with an increase in the drain %) and Scourge.

[Lusain]

Posted on the Vanguard Fighters DrK forum by Avair (class lead)

Thanks for the update.

Wrack/Ruin damage, based on my level 29 character atm, should be higher than it is. I don't believe it should have been reduced, but I do believe that it was. Not halved or anything, but lower.

307-409 is my damage range. I'm going to base the numbers on minimum damage. 400% of 307 is 1228, +143, is 1371.

1371 pre-mitigation should be the absolute minimum damage Wrack can deal. I have yet to break 1k today without critting, and this is fighting level 26-29 mobs both 2 and 3 dot for about an hour to test.

Similarly, 200% of 307 614 + 78 (harrow's description) is 692. Pre-mitigation, the MINIMUM damage harrow should be dealing is 692 damage, before mit (assuming even 25% mitigation from a normal 2-dot wolf, which seems really high, is about 520 dmg).

I just *criticalled* for 662 damage against a level 27 2-dot mob, at level 29. I'm using a 2handed axe which, supposedly, doubles critical hit damage? Heh.

Something isnt' adding up, guys. I know you said no sweeping changes but *something* is buggy with your damage system.

Hope this is helpful.

[xythalia]

I agree, there seems to be something going on in the background for these % based abilities that at the very least, I don't understand.

However, the thing that bugs me more is the nerf to SoD, now it is completely useless. My SoD damage was cut in HALF from this patch (down from 300+ to 150-160)

I'd rather have 300 damage + 75hp back then 150 damage and 100% absorb, considering it does little to no aggro anyway, just a solo tool (that USED to actually do more then our useless Vexing strike). now SoD III does less then SoD I used to do. *is reminded of the 'awesome changes' from wow*

oh well, we will have to see what they do with this (edit: server restart) patch, maybe they'll fix something.

now on to a happier note, did anyone's spell effects actually change? I sure didn't notice any, but my patch was having trouble downloading so I don't know if its just me.

yes, I guess I AM whining about SoD, but wtf they say they'll 'fix' it, and they make it more useless! get working on Shadowmeld, since that is obviously the only way we are going to be able to tank in any stance besides offensive.

what is going to happen when they someday fix Ravaging Darkness? since our abilities are being balanced around 6 seconds of unlimited end (Scourge, SoD) they will soon be broken when it does get fixed.

[Lusain]

I agree, there seems to be something going on in the background for these % based abilities that at the very least, I don't understand.

However, the thing that bugs me more is the nerf to SoD, now it is completely useless. My SoD damage was cut in HALF from this patch (down from 300+ to 150-160)

I'd rather have 300 damage + 75hp back then 150 damage and 100% absorb, considering it does little to no aggro anyway, just a solo tool (that USED to actually do more then our useless Vexing strike). now SoD III does less then SoD I used to do. *is reminded of the 'awesome changes' from wow*

oh well, we will have to see what they do with this (edit: server restart) patch, maybe they'll fix something.

now on to a happier note, did anyone's spell effects actually change? I sure didn't notice any, but my patch was having trouble downloading so I don't know if its just me.

yes, I guess I AM whining about SoD, but wtf they say they'll 'fix' it, and they make it more useless! get working on Shadowmeld, since that is obviously the only way we are going to be able to tank in any stance besides offensive.

what is going to happen when they someday fix Ravaging Darkness? since our abilities are being balanced around 6 seconds of unlimited end (Scourge, SoD) they will soon be broken when it does get fixed.

We knew SoD was getting changed. According to the dev messages today, it along with many other abilities were doing more damage than intended. Shield of Fear is another such ability that today is doing much less damage.

I'll have to try the new SoD before I whine about it. Ultimately the lifetap portion of SoD is the reason to use it, as it was before. I admit to trying to use it in AE situations when there were 4 mobs or so and no CC, because the 900-1200 damage (plus 300 heal) was better than another vexing strike.

All in all I think less damage but more healing is probably closer toward the intended ability, and therefore, I don't see what there is to complain about, honestly. This ability was doing more than it should have and was eventually going to get brought down to its intended damage levels, regardless. At least they are fixing it at the same time...

[shrikke]

We knew SoD was getting changed. According to the dev messages today, it along with many other abilities were doing more damage than intended. Shield of Fear is another such ability that today is doing much less damage.

I'll have to try the new SoD before I whine about it. Ultimately the lifetap portion of SoD is the reason to use it, as it was before. I admit to trying to use it in AE situations when there were 4 mobs or so and no CC, because the 900-1200 damage (plus 300 heal) was better than another vexing strike.

All in all I think less damage but more healing is probably closer toward the intended ability, and therefore, I don't see what there is to complain about, honestly. This ability was doing more than it should have and was eventually going to get brought down to its intended damage levels, regardless. At least they are fixing it at the same time...

So, correct me if I am wrong, but some of these changes appear to be more idiot proofing the class; "Player X is an DK and I saw him solo'ing a 4 dot" as in the other player could solo too, IF he or she knew there class. Can someone fill me in on if this is the trend? I had understood Vanguard was going to require skill to play, not be "wow" like in simplicity and idiot proofness?

[xythalia]

While I liked it better as a damage ability (that wasn't even high to begin with) and it is now a lifetap ability that works, atleast it is somewhat useful now.

Has anyone tested if it is actually giving hate now? I haven't had the chance after GU1, but I know before it was giving little to no hate.

as it was said before it is now 48 end, 100% heal, and seems to be hitting harder then the tooltip states (on yellow mobs it was hitting for a good 30-50 more a hit)

SoD is ok now, though I hope it does give hate.

With this mini patch: it might actually be worth using incite / inflame with a one hander.
Our rescues are now the (intended?) end costs of 5 for scourge and 15 for nexus.
All of my spells seem to be doing more damage, and the tooltips indicate that.

overall it sounds like a step in the right direction to fix things that were wrong, especially the rescues. Now we don't have to do the ravaging darkness -> scourge / nexus of hatred anymore :p

and, while shield of fear was doing less damage, that was expected since it was hitting for almost 700x its intended one damage. I must have missed the patch note that said fixed damage abilities were getting fixed, because it sure surprised me when I logged in to see it halved. Oh well.

Shrikke: i don't think they are exactly 'idiot proofing' the class, it sounds like they are just trying to fix bugs that we all have become used to. however, I believe that they should spend the extra 10 minutes on the patch notes to reflect exactly what they did, more like the restart patch after. Though I guess that most people would have died of shock if the dread knight notes said 'SoD, SoF, Incite, and Inflame were effected by fixed damage bugfix.' in addition to our wonderful new javelins.

[shrikke]

Shrikke: i don't think they are exactly 'idiot proofing' the class, it sounds like they are just trying to fix bugs that we all have become used to. however, I believe that they should spend the extra 10 minutes on the patch notes to reflect exactly what they did, more like the restart patch after. Though I guess that most people would have died of shock if the dread knight notes said 'SoD, SoF, Incite, and Inflame were effected by fixed damage bugfix.' in addition to our wonderful new javelins.

I disagree. At the current time, the developement of the game is heading the WRONG WAY. Poeple are complaining that this class and that need nurfed as in everquest1. Nurfs are happening. Not to the scale yet where a class is unusable, but it is definitely progressing to the level of idiot proof. Let me provide a concrete example incase you did not read my thread on hate. There are 2 ways to handle every problem, raise class abilities or lower them. Also lowering say hate or other spells/effects to the level that they are worthless is the same as removing them for all intents and purposes. For class balance in my opinion EVERY tank, OT DT, or backup tank should have the same or very close to the same ability to draw agro, (hate). NOT because we want to play agro wars like little kids, but because that way, when we NEED agro for the good of the raid/group we can GET agro. That's not where we are headed is it? We are currently listening to the warriors JUST like what happened in EQ1. That means they will make sure, all the other tanking classes will have hate/dps whatever nurfed till warriors can get a group even if you hate them, because it's either them or the poor worthless knight you feel sorry for. I do NOT want to see that again.

[Meldryn]

That means they will make sure, all the other tanking classes will have hate/dps whatever nurfed till warriors can get a group even if you hate them, because it's either them or the poor worthless knight you feel sorry for. I do NOT want to see that again.

I agree. The hybrid tanks in EQ were horribly implemented, and I do not want to see that happen again. :(

[DrK]

I agree, there seems to be something going on in the background for these % based abilities that at the very least, I don't understand.

However, the thing that bugs me more is the nerf to SoD, now it is completely useless. My SoD damage was cut in HALF from this patch (down from 300+ to 150-160)

I'd rather have 300 damage + 75hp back then 150 damage and 100% absorb, considering it does little to no aggro anyway, just a solo tool (that USED to actually do more then our useless Vexing strike). now SoD III does less then SoD I used to do. *is reminded of the 'awesome changes' from wow*

oh well, we will have to see what they do with this (edit: server restart) patch, maybe they'll fix something.

now on to a happier note, did anyone's spell effects actually change? I sure didn't notice any, but my patch was having trouble downloading so I don't know if its just me.

yes, I guess I AM whining about SoD, but wtf they say they'll 'fix' it, and they make it more useless! get working on Shadowmeld, since that is obviously the only way we are going to be able to tank in any stance besides offensive.

what is going to happen when they someday fix Ravaging Darkness? since our abilities are being balanced around 6 seconds of unlimited end (Scourge, SoD) they will soon be broken when it does get fixed.

I'm going to have to really disagree with you about SoD. It is working far better now and is working as it was always intended to: As a lifetap that did not do huge damage.

It's useful now without being overpowered. The pre-update #1, 25% health return version was utter garbage.

[strykr619]

FYI Cylus has nothing to do with class development,( so take him off of your list to bug about DRK issues ) he is the guy to talk to about itemization and in game items , he posts on the sorcerer boards because that is the class he plays.

Oh and did they fix DC3 and and DC5 yet? last ive seen with our DRK in my static DC 1,2 and 4 worked but 3 and 5 didnt.... i hope they get that fixed too and grats on the SoD fix.