Attn DEV: To Nerf or Not to Nerf…

[Suntsu]

Ask not who the Nerf bat swings…it swings for you…

But why…?

After Ten years of a relatively mature MMO market have the DEV learned nothing…?

There is a better way to balance then nerfing a class yet this is always the knee-jerk reaction we get..

Time and again I see nerfs come out to steer player behavior and everytime I just have to shake my head. Why make such complicated changes and do so in such an abrasive fashion when a very small and subtle tweak can be much more effective.

Lets look at some examples.

PlayerX can solo 4dot yellow mobs and is getting great exp and loot.

DevX wants to stop this behavior so he decides to nerf spellX and abilityY so that PlayerX can no longer solo these mobs.

This works…but it creates a ripple effect throughout the game that is immeasurable and unpredictable. Often times these nerfs that are made with best of intentions actually create several other problems that are much more damaging and game compromising.

An example here may be that PlayerX lost some CC ability or perhaps some DPS or mitigation so now they cannot perform their primary role when they quit ‘exploiting’ and return to group.

Instead of doing this why not do what I do in management and apply this simple philosophy…

‘Make the right way the easy way and everyone will do it.’

People do not seek to make their lives miserable, they seek to make them more satisfying.

So based on the solo’n a 4dot example above, why not instead of nerfing the player that is able to do it, nerf the mob exp and Loot so it is STUPID to do it and an utter waste of time?

Every mob has a loot trigger. If you need a quest item from a mob, when you get your 20th and complete the quest you no longer get more of them. So simply attach exp and loot to this trigger. You can even create a single kill exp soft cap so no matter what you kill you get ‘X’ exp or less.

If MobX is being killed by a single player then that player gets ‘Y’ exp and a reduced chance at any meaningful loot or no loot at all. If 2 players or a full group kill MobX then the regular chances for loot and exp come into effect. Or it could go further and you could make it based on group number…3 players get something different than 6 for example but all is decided when that trigger pops.

If this was done then nobody in their right mind would ever kill anything ‘group’ as a solo unless it was for fun. And isn’t the game about having fun? So let them do it if they want. They will get no relevant exp and not loot.

In all the years I have been playing games I have yet to see a rash of complaints for a DEV tweaking mobs. In most cases Mobs get tweaked without us even noticing.

On the other hand, if a Player is tweaked/nerfed/fixed or anyway otherwise adjusted it becomes a huge ‘Chicken Little’ fiasco and the boards lite up with whining.

Please before you make changes look for subtle solutions.

It does not matter if a Healer can solo a 4 dot named 2 levels higher if they don’t get the loot and get paltry exp. But if you nerf their defense so this is not possible you make them weaker in group play as they cannot stand up to healer agro.

It does not matter if a Necro can fear kite a 5 dot. Who cares, pull up a chair and enjoy the show…that is all it would be is a show after all since he would get max exp for a solo kill. But don’t nerf the Fear or he is no longer able to fear adds and do his primary job.

If Mele is too high in some areas then increase Mob mitigation. This will only effect Mele classes and not Casters and you problem is solved.

Don’t nerf the player…tweak the mobs. Think outside the box.

[Lizard]

That's not even wrong. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong)

[DocSavag]

So basically if something is broken you should just make it so people don't notice it?

So if Player X can solo Mob A but can't get the loot then he needs me along to watch him kill Mob A so he can get the loot. That doesn't sound like a healthy group dynamic to me. It sounds like a good way to screw up grouping.

[Suntsu]

So basically if something is broken you should just make it so people don't notice it?

So if Player X can solo Mob A but can't get the loot then he needs me along to watch him kill Mob A so he can get the loot. That doesn't sound like a healthy group dynamic to me. It sounds like a good way to screw up grouping.

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.

It does not matter.

What matters is whether YOUR toon is fun and you FEEL it is effective.

Not whether he can kill something huge or not.

Too much emphisis is placed on who can solo what and since they can lets nerf them. By nerfing great solo accomplishment awards you take the envy from the accomplishment since there is no gain other than brag rights and the class can keep its skills so when you group with them you can have a worthy group mate.

The alternative is a series of nerf wars that leaves us all impotent and frustrated.

[Lizard]

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.
.

Anyone who understands the nature of game design, especially MMORPG design.

[Suntsu]

Anyone who understands the nature of game design, especially MMORPG design.

Enlighten me Lizard.

Tell me why it matters to you if I can kill a 4dot solo and I am not getting any better loot or exp than you in fact I am getting worse?

[Ladon]

No actually nerfing is the answer. If you continue to bring classes up in balance then the players become too strong. The result will be another Everquest with 1000+ damage, .25 second delay quad hitting mobs.

[Suntsu]

No actually nerfing is the answer. If you continue to bring classes up in balance then the players become too strong. The result will be another Everquest with 1000+ damage, .25 second delay quad hitting mobs.

Noone said anything about bringing anyone up to balance. Simply that balance is not what it appears and is not as important as stated.

Nerfing the loot and exp can accomplish the same thing as nerfing the ability.

Not sure what you are reading...?

[Ladon]

Noone said anything about bringing anyone up to balance. Simply that balance is not what it appears and is not as important as stated.

Nerfing the loot and exp can accomplish the same thing as nerfing the ability.

Not sure what you are reading...?

So you want to punish full groups killing those mobs as well then? Should we also nerf 3 dot and 2 dot mobs as well since it's likely this class that can kill a 4 dot is able to kill 3 and 2 dot mobs far more efficiently than other classes?

[elikal]

Nerfing is taking the easiest and fastest way, but also the worst. It destroys a lot of trust and faith and the long term results are bad for the game. There is always an inch of trust corroded until its gone.

There are many smarter ways, but they lack the patience and will like most game companys. In the end, the player pays the price for the developers neglectance.

[Suntsu]

So you want to punish full groups killing those mobs as well then? Should we also nerf 3 dot and 2 dot mobs as well since it's likely this class that can kill a 4 dot is able to kill 3 and 2 dot mobs far more efficiently than other classes?

After you ACTUALLY READ my post...then comment...then I will reply.

[Lizard]

Enlighten me Lizard.

Tell me why it matters to you if I can kill a 4dot solo and I am not getting any better loot or exp than you in fact I am getting worse?

It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

But let's see if you're educable...

In addition to the issues already mentioned...

a)Your proposal is buggy, hard to balance, difficult to implement, and will lead to all sorts of bizaare party dynamics.

b)The entire point of the dot-system is to class monsters as soloable or not. If one class can reliably solo same-level 3 and 4 dot creatures, the class is broken -- not the dot system. Your proposal makes the dot system meaningless (and infinitely more confusing)

c)The ability to trivially pass content which would normally require a group means some classes will have access to regions solo which other classes must group to reach. If you don't see game balance and fairness issues with this, you are beyond hope.

d)Regardless of the facts of loot (if anyone could understand your convoluted and baroque solution to 'fixing' the problem), if there is a perception one class is substantially better than another, more people will choose to play it, hampering the community and reducing diversity.

e)Occam's Razor. (Look it up). Programmer time is expensive; so is testing time. It is a much more efficient use of resources to simply tone down overpowered abilities than to implement an incomphrensibly complex, unbalanced, and easily exploited system such as you propose.

f)While the cries and screams of PVPers are music to my ears, I am not utterly without compassion for them. Your solution does nothing to solve the effect an overpowered class will have on PVP. Having different sets of abilities for PvE and PvP is unnecessarly overcomplicated; see 'e'.

g)It punishes those who, through exceptional skill and luck, *do* manage to solo group content at or over their level. If the game is balanced properly, this should be a rare thing and should be suitably rewarded; your proposal unfairly penalizes skilled players who have truly mastered their class.

There. Now, let us see if I've wasted my time trying.

[Lizard]

Nerfing is taking the easiest and fastest way, but also the worst. It destroys a lot of trust and faith and the long term results are bad for the game. There is always an inch of trust corroded until its gone.


I trust the developers to do what is required to balance the game. I would feel far more betrayed if they ignored game balance in favor of "not upsetting the players".

It is far simpler to tone down one overpowered ability than to power up everything else, and an unbalanced game is a game which is heading for collapse and cancellation.

[Ladon]

After you ACTUALLY READ my post...then comment...then I will reply.

Like I said, if a class has the power to solo a 4 dot then they likely have the power to also kill a 3 dot and 2 dot at a much greater rate with less risk than other classes. The core problem is the class is overpowered and is using abilities in methods not originally envisioned by the developer.

It's stupid for developers to dance around the core issue just to shut up a few whiners because their favorite toy was just taken away.

It is far simpler to tone down one overpowered ability than to power up everything else, and an unbalanced game is a game which is heading for collapse and cancellation.

Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

You're talking about reworking the entire 'dot con' system just to suit a few overpower abilities. There is no logic in this.

[Lizard]

Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

Or Feign Death. FD was supposed to be a 'save my ass!' power, but it became the core of pulling...so every major encounter was redesigned to deal with FD pulling and mobs were overpowered so a single mob would be a challenge for a group no matter what it conned....

(My fix? Make it so that sometimes the mob ignored you when you FD, and other times, it figured you were an easy snack and did a quadruple-damage attack on you while you lay there pretending to be dead....that way, people would only use it when they were about to be not-feigning death.)

[Suntsu]

[QUOTE=Lizard;155055]It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."Very true...but since I am a nice guy and very patient...I will attempt to teach you anyways.

But let's see if you're educable...

In addition to the issues already mentioned...

a)Your proposal is buggy, hard to balance, difficult to implement, and will lead to all sorts of bizaare party dynamics.The proposal is intentionally vague as specific examples of what specific classes can do with specific mobs leads to uncivil posts and class wars. These then turn to nerfs which is the very thing I am trying to avoid.

b)The entire point of the dot-system is to class monsters as soloable or not. If one class can reliably solo same-level 3 and 4 dot creatures, the class is broken -- not the dot system. Your proposal makes the dot system meaningless (and infinitely more confusing)My proposal changes nothing about the dot system. It can remain exactly as it is now. The only difference will be the amount of EXP and chance of loot drop will change if you are killing 4 or 5 dot as a solo person. ANd the dot system is a challenge rating, not a who can I solo...If it were a who can I solo there would be 2 dots. One dot is yes and two dots is no.

c)The ability to trivially pass content which would normally require a group means some classes will have access to regions solo which other classes must group to reach. If you don't see game balance and fairness issues with this, you are beyond hope.YOu mean like Invis? Or levitate? Or Rakkur speed? Or Bard speed? YEs you can see it but to reap the rewards you must kill and kill solo as solo and group as group...as intended and how my proposal makes things work. RIGHT NOW under current system this is happening. Under todays changes it will still happen. With my proposal there will be no reason to go there other than to look around like someone with invis.

d)Regardless of the facts of loot (if anyone could understand your convoluted and baroque solution to 'fixing' the problem), if there is a perception one class is substantially better than another, more people will choose to play it, hampering the community and reducing diversity.People will play what they deem fun. A few kids will surf the boards looking for the most overpowered class and play it because they think it is Uber but the masses will play what appeals to them. Balance is not what you can kill. It is whether you are having fun and effective in your role. What you are eluding to and what nerfs to bring us equal do is to stifle diversity and make us all the same. What I propose is to throw out the concept of balanced means we all kill the same and introduce the concept of loot is equal no matter what, exp is equal no matter what...so play what you enjoy. If that means a necro who can kite a five dot then do it. If it means a Cleric that will take an hour to kill a 2 dot then do it. WHO CARES?

[Suntsu]

e)Occam's Razor. (Look it up). Programmer time is expensive; so is testing time. It is a much more efficient use of resources to simply tone down overpowered abilities than to implement an incomphrensibly complex, unbalanced, and easily exploited system such as you propose.Both are equally as complex. In fact the current nerf hear and there nickel and dime method is much more difficult than a blanket loot/exp policy that is tweaked by changing mobs. You are saying that managing the variables of 15 classes and 18 races each with roughly 100 skills all of which need to go into the balanceometer is easier than changing a trigger on a loot subroutine for all mobs. Then lets not forget we need to take all those variables and loot at how they are effected in group, small group, solo and raid scenarios. Sure...that is very simple...lol. It is assenine. History has proven that the current path is one that leads nowhere. Every MMO to date has followed it and every one has failed at achieving balance. My path is different. Maybe it will work maybe it wont but nerfs never work.

f)While the cries and screams of PVPers are music to my ears, I am not utterly without compassion for them. Your solution does nothing to solve the effect an overpowered class will have on PVP. Having different sets of abilities for PvE and PvP is unnecessarly overcomplicated; see 'e'.I only PVE. I don not care what they do with PVP as long as it has no effect on PVE. There needs to be a clear line between the two. This is a PVE only solution.

g)It punishes those who, through exceptional skill and luck, *do* manage to solo group content at or over their level. If the game is balanced properly, this should be a rare thing and should be suitably rewarded; your proposal unfairly penalizes skilled players who have truly mastered their class.I fully agree with you. I would rather we do nothing and not even make this change. But as long as the system is the way it is Sigil will continue to attempt to 'balance' the classes abilities in order to curb it. So loosing the loot and exp is a better solution than screwing up the abilities.

There. Now, let us see if I've wasted my time trying.[/QUOTE]

[DocSavag]

No...

It means WHO CARES if PlayerX can solo MobA.

It does not matter.

What matters is whether YOUR toon is fun and you FEEL it is effective.

Not whether he can kill something huge or not.

Too much emphisis is placed on who can solo what and since they can lets nerf them. By nerfing great solo accomplishment awards you take the envy from the accomplishment since there is no gain other than brag rights and the class can keep its skills so when you group with them you can have a worthy group mate.

The alternative is a series of nerf wars that leaves us all impotent and frustrated.

I already told you why it matters. Your solution essentially has me as a third wheel in the group only so that the guy who can solo the content can get full loot. Why does he need me there? It makes a joke of the grouping process if the majority of the group is useless.

[Lizard]

[QUOTE=Lizard;155055]It won't do much good. "Never bother trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."Very true...but since I am a nice guy and very patient...I will attempt to teach you anyways.

But let's see if you're educable...


Evidently not.

What I propose is to throw out the concept of balanced means we all kill the same and introduce the concept of loot is equal no matter what, exp is equal no matter what...so play what you enjoy. If that means a necro who can kite a five dot then do it. If it means a Cleric that will take an hour to kill a 2 dot then do it. WHO CARES?

Nothing you posted addresses the flaws with your proposal or my criticisms of it; you merely reiterate refuted points. The idea that "you should just get the same loot and XP from a 4 dot that you do from a 2 dot, that's fair" is so self-evidently bogus that, as I noted in my first reply:"It's not even wrong." You understand neither game design nor player psychology (and how the latter drives the former). You have no factual basis for your assertions and they are countered by the entire history of both P&P and online RPGs to date.

Someone else try. I give up.

[Suntsu]

Like I said, if a class has the power to solo a 4 dot then they likely have the power to also kill a 3 dot and 2 dot at a much greater rate with less risk than other classes. The core problem is the class is overpowered and is using abilities in methods not originally envisioned by the developer. This is true. There is no way any amount of nerfing or any futile attempts at creating or preserving balance will ever change this. DPS classes will kill faster than tanks and healers. This is not a complaint...it is just fact. It is silly for the DEV to try to change it as changing it guts any diversity from the game. This exists now and will exist after my proposal is implemented. The only thing my proposal effects is the soloing of 4 and 5 dot mobs. This also seems to be what Sigil is trying to curb by there nerfs.

It's stupid for developers to dance around the core issue just to shut up a few whiners because their favorite toy was just taken away.I agree. but it is quieter when they do this in stealth fashion.



Not only simply, but correct. As I said, try to balance mobs around overpowered player abilities as the OP suggests results in the situation late Everquest saw with mob damage. Complete Heal completely broke balance in that game yet rather than just remove it, they attempted to balance the entire game around it. They've learned from that harsh mistake.

You're talking about reworking the entire 'dot con' system just to suit a few overpower abilities. There is no logic in this.

Well I will not agree or disagree with the CH EQ1 statement, I have no opinion of it. I will grant this point however, if an ability is noticably overpowered, it needs to be nerfed. No question. If Druid could Nuke for 10K every 30 seconds there would be an issue and they would have to fix it. But if a Druid can solo a 4 dot it does not mean the game is broken. It means the druid can solo well. Nerf the reward instead of his abilities and he can still solo well and will have the same EXP curve and loot curve as the rest of the player base. Nerf his root and he will re-roll a Necro so he can still kill it by fear kiting. Nerf the necros fear and he will roll a Cleric so he can still kill albiet very very slowly, nerf the Clerics Mitigation and inturuption and he is no longer a good healer so now we have a crappy Druid and a Crappy Necro and a crappy Cleric...who shall we nerf next? Why dont we just nerf the exp and loot on the mob and then who the hell cares who can kill it?

[Lizard]

But if a Druid can solo a 4 dot it does not mean the game is broken.


Actually, yes, it does. It means it is *very* broken -- or at least druids are.

[quote[ Nerf the reward instead of his abilities and he can still solo well and will have the same EXP curve and loot curve as the rest of the player base.[/QUOTE]

No, because then he'll still be killing *2 dot* mobs much, much, faster than anyone else can (and higher level ones, too), and thus getting much more XP and loot.

Why don't we just give everyone flat XP for time played, and random loot drops for every hour they're on line, and eliminate all XP and monster loot? Then no one will need to be nerfed. Would that make you happy?

Yeesh.

I am ignoring Mr. Twain's sage advice on arguing with idiots -- and thus proving him correct.

[Mr_bloodworth]

Things, numbers ETC.. have to be adjusted in order to balance things, and not just between classes.

People need to stop taking it as "We hate your class". Its stupid.

The game does not revolve around you, or your class.

[Kelenvor]

I think that the one dev for EQ2 summed up the whole nerf thing really well.

No one likes a nerf. We don't like to give it and the players don't like to receive it. We do it for the health of the game. It may be painful but the long term vitiality of the game comes first in making decisions. Unlike someone playing just one class, we have to step back and look at the big picture.

[Suntsu]

I already told you why it matters. Your solution essentially has me as a third wheel in the group only so that the guy who can solo the content can get full loot. Why does he need me there? It makes a joke of the grouping process if the majority of the group is useless.

I think maybe you misread my original post. My post states that if you are solo doing group content your loot will be drastically reduced and your exp/kill will be equivalent to solo exp.

It will make it more beneficial for groups to form in order to do group content. So you will not be a third wheel to a Necro, you will be a tank in a group. And I wont be a third wheel to a Necro I will be a Healer in a group.

I can solo 4 dots one level higher right now with my class. The exp does not warrant doing it for me because I kill too slowly. The loot is good because I can kill a few named for profit. It is nice to finish a quest without the need of others so I will do it for that reason.

Knowing now that my class cannot get good exp solo'n 4 dots puts me in with 2-3 dots where I am supposed to be. Proof that my method would work. I still can get loot however so i cherry pick named whenever possible. If I knew I could not get loot I would make a group and kill it. I would not risk death for no loot or exp. Instead I would kill solo mobs.

If Duo's became the big thing then Sigil could simply alter the loot trigger again and make it so you need at least three to trigger loot.

[digitalfreak]

I think maybe you misread my original post. My post states that if you are solo doing group content your loot will be drastically reduced and your exp/kill will be equivalent to solo exp.

It will make it more beneficial for groups to form in order to do group content. So you will not be a third wheel to a Necro, you will be a tank in a group. And I wont be a third wheel to a Necro I will be a Healer in a group.

I can solo 4 dots one level higher right now with my class. The exp does not warrant doing it for me because I kill too slowly. The loot is good because I can kill a few named for profit. It is nice to finish a quest without the need of others so I will do it for that reason.

Knowing now that my class cannot get good exp solo'n 4 dots puts me in with 2-3 dots where I am supposed to be. Proof that my method would work. I still can get loot however so i cherry pick named whenever possible. If I knew I could not get loot I would make a group and kill it. I would not risk death for no loot or exp. Instead I would kill solo mobs.

If Duo's became the big thing then Sigil could simply alter the loot trigger again and make it so you need at least three to trigger loot.

I find it hilarious that you guys who say his idea is stupid just don't get it. Anyway, good idea Suntsu.

[Suntsu]

Actually, yes, it does. It means it is *very* broken -- or at least druids are.

[quote[ Nerf the reward instead of his abilities and he can still solo well and will have the same EXP curve and loot curve as the rest of the player base.

No, because then he'll still be killing *2 dot* mobs much, much, faster than anyone else can (and higher level ones, too), and thus getting much more XP and loot.

Why don't we just give everyone flat XP for time played, and random loot drops for every hour they're on line, and eliminate all XP and monster loot? Then no one will need to be nerfed. Would that make you happy?

Yeesh.

I am ignoring Mr. Twain's sage advice on arguing with idiots -- and thus proving him correct.[/QUOTE]



No, I have a better Idea.

Lets make us all a Healersorcatankepsi. Then we can all kill the same things at the same time at the same rate and get the same loot.

That will be fair.

We just need one class!

OMG we figured it out!!!!

Dear Sigil, please make only one class and race so all classes will be created equal and have the ability to kill at the same rate.



WTF?


Nerfing takes away all the high points and levels things out. In other words it makes us more the same and less different.

You guys have an obsession with equality. There is no such thing.

Do you really think any amount of nerfing will ever make a Cleric kill as fast as a Sorcerer?

It is IMPOSSIBLE and thank god it is.

I have no interest in a watered down flat MMO. I want diversity. Talk of an artificial sense of 'balance' which is what killing balance is will ruin this game.

Balance is NOT what you can kill.

It is how you FEEL about the FUN and EFFECTIVENESS of your chosen Class/Race combo.

NOTHING MORE.

If you feel like it is effective and you are having fun then you are in BALANCE.

If you do not then there is an issue.

If you do not and the reason is that you are a Cleric and you feel like a Sorcerer can kill faster and this ruins your gameplay experience then you are an idiot.

[DocSavag]

I think maybe you misread my original post. My post states that if you are solo doing group content your loot will be drastically reduced and your exp/kill will be equivalent to solo exp.

It will make it more beneficial for groups to form in order to do group content. So you will not be a third wheel to a Necro, you will be a tank in a group. And I wont be a third wheel to a Necro I will be a Healer in a group.

I can solo 4 dots one level higher right now with my class. The exp does not warrant doing it for me because I kill too slowly. The loot is good because I can kill a few named for profit. It is nice to finish a quest without the need of others so I will do it for that reason.

Knowing now that my class cannot get good exp solo'n 4 dots puts me in with 2-3 dots where I am supposed to be. Proof that my method would work. I still can get loot however so i cherry pick named whenever possible. If I knew I could not get loot I would make a group and kill it. I would not risk death for no loot or exp. Instead I would kill solo mobs.

If Duo's became the big thing then Sigil could simply alter the loot trigger again and make it so you need at least three to trigger loot.

You still don't get it.

If I can kill Monster A without you then I don't need you to help me kill it.

If ALL I need you for is to up my xp and my loot you're just a third wheel helping me get xp/loot you're not necessary for the kill. Frankly I don't need a human I can multibox just as well and get the same benefit.

You are going to have to alter your scenario to make sure that I actually hit the mob before its a group kill too otherwise I just join a "solo" group to raise my xp and loot.

Your idea doesn't work. Its a bad idea. I'm sorry but it is.

[Ladon]

I think maybe you misread my original post. My post states that if you are solo doing group content your loot will be drastically reduced and your exp/kill will be equivalent to solo exp.

It will make it more beneficial for groups to form in order to do group content. So you will not be a third wheel to a Necro, you will be a tank in a group. And I wont be a third wheel to a Necro I will be a Healer in a group.

I can solo 4 dots one level higher right now with my class. The exp does not warrant doing it for me because I kill too slowly. The loot is good because I can kill a few named for profit. It is nice to finish a quest without the need of others so I will do it for that reason.

Knowing now that my class cannot get good exp solo'n 4 dots puts me in with 2-3 dots where I am supposed to be. Proof that my method would work. I still can get loot however so i cherry pick named whenever possible. If I knew I could not get loot I would make a group and kill it. I would not risk death for no loot or exp. Instead I would kill solo mobs.

If Duo's became the big thing then Sigil could simply alter the loot trigger again and make it so you need at least three to trigger loot.


A really simple question for you. Remind me the purpose of the dot system again? What does a 4 dot mean?

[Sedek]

I think maybe you misread my original post. My post states that if you are solo doing group content your loot will be drastically reduced and your exp/kill will be equivalent to solo exp.

It will make it more beneficial for groups to form in order to do group content. So you will not be a third wheel to a Necro, you will be a tank in a group. And I wont be a third wheel to a Necro I will be a Healer in a group.

No ... you'll be a third wheel, because the Necro doesn't NEED you to kill the mob ... you are a drain on his loot nothing else because since he has to have you to get it, he has to split it. .... or ... more likely ... he'll just 2 or 3 box a buff/heal bot in order to get the group loot.

You don't address the fact that Class X is now going to kill 2-3 dots 3-4 times faster than Class Y ... and you know what ... Class Y is going to pitch a FIT over the fact that Class X can get XP and Loot at a much higher rate than they can .... so in the end your proposal ultimately solves nothing.

[Suntsu]

You still don't get it.

If I can kill Monster A without you then I don't need you to help me kill it.

If ALL I need you for is to up my xp and my loot you're just a third wheel helping me get xp/loot you're not necessary for the kill. Frankly I don't need a human I can multibox just as well and get the same benefit.

You are going to have to alter your scenario to make sure that I actually hit the mob before its a group kill too otherwise I just join a "solo" group to raise my xp and loot.

Your idea doesn't work. Its a bad idea. I'm sorry but it is.




In a Perfect world we could nerf everyone to the point where 4 dots were not soloable without screwing up group and raid play.

But this is not a perfect world.

I offer an alternative that will get us much further than pure nerfing. IS it perfect...nope.

Is it better than constantly nerfing players so Sigil can stop them from doing something that it does not matter if they do while causing a ripple effect of side effects that will casue more issues elsewhere....yup.

Imagine for a moment what could be done if nobody cared who could kill what solo because it would not matter?

Sigil would have complete free reign to make classes have as obscure of abilities as they wished. They would not ever need to look back at balance and people could play what they had fun playing instead of who could kite 5 dots for loot.

Balance could be about Fun and Effectiveness rather than about who could kill what.

[Suntsu]

No ... you'll be a third wheel, because the Necro doesn't NEED you to kill the mob ... you are a drain on his loot nothing else because since he has to have you to get it, he has to split it. .... or ... more likely ... he'll just 2 or 3 box a buff/heal bot in order to get the group loot.

You don't address the fact that Class X is now going to kill 2-3 dots 3-4 times faster than Class Y ... and you know what ... Class Y is going to pitch a FIT over the fact that Class X can get XP and Loot at a much higher rate than they can .... so in the end your proposal ultimately solves nothing.




It has been addressed in several posts re-read.

[Ladon]

It has been addressed in several posts re-read.

No you haven't addressed it. You continue to ignore the fact that a class equipped to solo a 4 dot mob is still going to be better at killing 2 and 3 dots than any other class. You ignore the fact that anyone can drag around a boxed level 1 character to completely circumvent your idea. What's next, are we going to make a bunch of new and complex group exp rules in as well to fit this system of yours? And you ignore the biggest issue classes were never intended to solo 4 dot mobs BY DEFINITION.

[DocSavag]

In a Perfect world we could nerf everyone to the point where 4 dots were not soloable without screwing up group and raid play.

But this is not a perfect world.

I offer an alternative that will get us much further than pure nerfing. IS it perfect...nope.

Is it better than constantly nerfing players so Sigil can stop them from doing something that it does not matter if they do while causing a ripple effect of side effects that will casue more issues elsewhere....yup.

Imagine for a moment what could be done if nobody cared who could kill what solo because it would not matter?

Sigil would have complete free reign to make classes have as obscure of abilities as they wished. They would not ever need to look back at balance and people could play what they had fun playing instead of who could kite 5 dots for loot.

Balance could be about Fun and Effectiveness rather than about who could kill what.

It still matters in your scenario. If I can kill the mob solo I just need some loser who will stand around and watch me kill it so I get full xp/loot. If I can't I need a real group who will help me. Good luck to me if everyone else on can solo it..basically they only need to join with each other and go kill stuff solo. I have to wait until others who have under balanced classes get together to actually get anything done.

It also means that the people who can solo anything in the game with their uber class get bored because most of the game is a joke to them. Making them group with me to get the loot doesn't make it more challenging it makes them pissed that they have to suck up to me to get their loot. (And in reality they don't suck up to me if I can't solo the mob they go find a group of others who can and they all join a group and go kill stuff solo)

Your solution just pretends that balance doesn't matter..it actually still matters and the game just gets worse as a result of pretending it doesnt.

[Suntsu]

No you haven't addressed it. You continue to ignore the fact that a class equipped to solo a 4 dot mob is still going to be better at killing 2 and 3 dots than any other class. You ignore the fact that anyone can drag around a boxed level 1 character to completely circumvent your idea. What's next, are we going to make a bunch of new and complex group exp rules in as well to fit this system of yours? And you ignore the biggest issue classes were never intended to solo 4 dot mobs BY DEFINITION.

I did address it but let me add...

Why is it important that a guy cannot solo a 4 dot given he will only make the exp of a 2 dot and he will get no loot and it will take him 4 times as long as a 2 dot?

Why would it matter?

What the game intends is not relevant.

Why would it matter to YOU?

[DocSavag]

I did address it but let me add...

Why is it important that a guy cannot solo a 4 dot given he will only make the exp of a 2 dot and he will get no loot and it will take him 4 times as long as a 2 dot?

Why would it matter?

What the game intends is not relevant.

Why would it matter to YOU?

Who said it would take him 4x as long? You can't dictate that unless you change his power level or the power level of the mob?

[Suntsu]

It still matters in your scenario. If I can kill the mob solo I just need some loser who will stand around and watch me kill it so I get full xp/loot. If I can't I need a real group who will help me. Good luck to me if everyone else on can solo it..basically they only need to join with each other and go kill stuff solo. I have to wait until others who have under balanced classes get together to actually get anything done.

It also means that the people who can solo anything in the game with their uber class get bored because most of the game is a joke to them. Making them group with me to get the loot doesn't make it more challenging it makes them pissed that they have to suck up to me to get their loot. (And in reality they don't suck up to me if I can't solo the mob they go find a group of others who can and they all join a group and go kill stuff solo)

Your solution just pretends that balance doesn't matter..it actually still matters and the game just gets worse as a result of pretending it doesnt.

Well the alternative is what you have now. A select few classes that farm it nonstop without your help.

You will NEVER stop it. I only curb it and do not stop it. I dont think you could make a ruleset that I could not exploit.

And Balance does matter. Just not the way Sigil and every mmo thus far have chased it.

If the Druid could one shot a 4 dot or kill them as fast an easilly as 2 dots then of course he is broken. But if he can 'do it' and it is dangerous and it takes a bunch of time then it is not out of balance it is skill.

Making it so he cannot would mean you break him.

For expample take his root and make it so it will not stick on 4 dot and you hurt him in group play when you have no CC.

My point is as long as we are 'fairly' balanced which I think we are close to already, the mobs could be tweaked to finish us the rest of the way. We dont need to nerf everyone to make it impossible jsut make it not worthwhile to do.

[Suntsu]

Who said it would take him 4x as long? You can't dictate that unless you change his power level or the power level of the mob?

Well the mob has HP's. And 4 dots have at least 4X what a 2dot has. So there you go.

You guys talk like this is a recreation of the game. It is a small tweak to a loot subroutine. the Necro is in game right now and so is the mob?

[Ladon]

I did address it but let me add...

Why is it important that a guy cannot solo a 4 dot given he will only make the exp of a 2 dot and he will get no loot and it will take him 4 times as long as a 2 dot?

Why would it matter?

What the game intends is not relevant.

Why would it matter to YOU?


The intent of the game is not relevant? Why not exactly? I picked up this game and play it because the expressed intent of the game mechanics by the game developers appeals to me. I like the idea of the mob tier system. If I come across a dungeon guarded by 4 dot mobs then I know that is a place of significance and if I want to break into that place I'm going to need to get a full group to do so. That significances is greatly trivialized if I see Mr. Necro waltz in and start killing things on his own.

And class balance does matter greatly. We are all in competition for group slots and groups will naturally take the best they can. Why would I ever pick another healing class if the Cleric is above and beyond the abilities of the other healing classes? I'd like to flip this question on you and ask you how you could possibly enjoy an online game where the playing field isn't relatively level and expect it to be successful and health MMO.


Also AGAIN, a class with the power to solo a 4 dot mob is going to be able to kill a 2 dot mob more efficiently than any class.

[Lizard]

I find it hilarious that you guys who say his idea is stupid just don't get it. Anyway, good idea Suntsu.

Yes, because adjusting experience based on your class -- not on the stats of the mob -- makes soooooo much more sense than doing it the sane way. (Oh, wait, it's only adjusted for some mobs, not others...nah, there's no chance of coding issues and constant adjustments using THAT system, not at all!)

And let's not forget that it also works in a group, except, in reverse:
"Well, I don't learn much fighting these things on my own, but if I'm with other people, I get more XP, even though I do less work! Yeah, sounds good to me!"

(Not to mention altering loot drops, etc, based on your class. What, the ratmen carry less gold if they see a druid coming?)

[Suntsu]

The intent of the game is not relevant? Why not exactly? The intent is how they envision it being. If it comes out different and is still fun and people love it then it may end up more successful. Take hienz Ketchup for example. they intended to make tomato sauce but burnt it. Before they threw it away they said hey this is good...now ketchup makes more money than tomato sauce. Intent does not matter only the end result. If it is good people stay. I picked up this game and play it because the expressed intent of the game mechanics by the game developers appeals to me. I like the idea of the mob tier system. If I come across a dungeon guarded by 4 dot mobs then I know that is a place of significance and if I want to break into that place I'm going to need to get a full group to do so. That significances is greatly trivialized if I see Mr. Necro waltz in and start killing things on his own.then you have class envy. It does not matter if the Necro can do that as long as they are not griefing you and you and your group are having fun.

And class balance does matter greatly. We are all in competition for group slots and groups will naturally take the best they can. Ability to solo 4 dots does not make you better in group. they are in no way related.Why would I ever pick another healing class if the Cleric is above and beyond the abilities of the other healing classes? You wouldn't. And that would be broken so it would have to be fixed. The other healers would not 'Feel' effective and would not get groups so they would not be having 'Fun'. therefore based on my rules you would have to nerf the Cleric or boost the others to be moer competitive. But this has nothing to do with solo'n 4 dots.I'd like to flip this question on you and ask you how you could possibly enjoy an online game where the playing field isn't relatively level and expect it to be successful and health MMO. No game is exactly level except maybe Eve and Ultima Online. I played them both and did not enjoy them long term. Level means we are the same. How much DPS equates how much tank mitigation equals how much Healing per ENG? It is impossible to measure. Which is better, apple, orange, banana or grape? Impossible to measure. No MMO is what you describe. In hte end all you have is 'Is it fun? and Do you feel your toon is effective at his job?' Nothing more. No balance...it does not exist and more in this game than it does in my fruit bowl. But all the fruit tastes great.


Also AGAIN, a class with the power to solo a 4 dot mob is going to be able to kill a 2 dot mob more efficiently than any class. Yup...and how do you intend to nerf Sorcerers so they kill as slowly as Clerics and still keep the game balanced? Starting to see my point yet?




IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!!!

I fyou want to kill fast play a DPS class. If you want to heal play a healer. if you want to tank play a tank. If the loot and exp are balanced then it truely does not matter.

[Lizard]

A really simple question for you. Remind me the purpose of the dot system again? What does a 4 dot mean?

According to the OP, it means "This mob can be killed by a druid, but we've jiggled the XP and loot tables so, in theory, he won't bother. Unless he's in a group. Unless the group is all druids[1]. Or something. But the important thing is, it's not a nerf!"

That's what a 4 dot means.

Duh.

[1] So, uhm, yeah, how does that work? If you don't get loot/XP unless you're in a group, then, why not form a group of all-uber-characters? Each one pulls and solos a 4-dot, getting full 'group' XP and killing them faster than any group of 'normal' characters. Yeah, you've made a REAL clever system there, bucko. Uh-huh.

[Ladon]

The intent is how they envision it being. If it comes out different and is still fun and people love it then it may end up more successful. Take hienz Ketchup for example. they intended to make tomato sauce but burnt it. Before they threw it away they said hey this is good...now ketchup makes more money than tomato sauce. Intent does not matter only the end result. If it is good people stay. I picked up this game and play it because the expressed intent of the game mechanics by the game developers appeals to me. I like the idea of the mob tier system.

Too bad it is far more common for the actual result to defy the point of intend so badly that the process needs to be reworked. Oh look my my screw doesn't quite fit that hole. I guess I'll completely redesign my project so that screw fits rather than just filing that screw down a bit.

then you have class envy. It does not matter if the Necro can do that as long as they are not griefing you and you and your group are having fun.

No I don't. I have a sense of balance and coherency. I want my games to have rules and have those rules enforced. Soloing a 4 dot mob breaks the rules of the game. 2 dot = soloable, 3 dot = soloable, 4 dot = not soloable as defined by the rules of the game.

Ability to solo 4 dots does not make you better in group. they are in no way related.

The way this game is structured, it is related. Soloability in this game almost always directly relates to general class power both in and our of groups.

No game is exactly level except maybe Eve and Ultima Online. I played them both and did not enjoy them long term. Level means we are the same. How much DPS equates how much tank mitigation equals how much Healing per ENG? It is impossible to measure. Which is better, apple, orange, banana or grape? Impossible to measure. No MMO is what you describe. In hte end all you have is 'Is it fun? and Do you feel your toon is effective at his job?' Nothing more. No balance...it does not exist and more in this game than it does in my fruit bowl. But all the fruit tastes great.

It's really easy to measure in this game. That is the purpose of the mob tier system. If a class is able to solo a mob intended for a full group that class is broken. There simply is not a way for you to justify otherwise with the mob tier system in place. Some classes have an easier time soloing 3-dots, and that shows the general differences in classes. But no class was ever designed with the intent of soloing a 4-dot. Being able to do so shows a tremendous advantage over other classes.

Yup...and how do you intend to nerf Sorcerers so they kill as slowly as Clerics and still keep the game balanced? Starting to see my point yet?

Simple, since it is already in place. Clerics kill slower but have no downtime between kills. Sorcerers are able to kill things but require far more time in between kills to recover.

[Ladon]

According to the OP, it means "This mob can be killed by a druid, but we've jiggled the XP and loot tables so, in theory, he won't bother. Unless he's in a group. Unless the group is all druids[1]. Or something. But the important thing is, it's not a nerf!"

That's what a 4 dot means.

Duh.

[1] So, uhm, yeah, how does that work? If you don't get loot/XP unless you're in a group, then, why not form a group of all-uber-characters? Each one pulls and solos a 4-dot, getting full 'group' XP and killing them faster than any group of 'normal' characters. Yeah, you've made a REAL clever system there, bucko. Uh-huh.


I just came up with a better idea. We'll bring every class up to the point where they can solo 4 dot. Then we'll make 7 dot mobs, making 5 dots the new cut off. BRILLIANT I just fixed the game and everyone can continue to have a warm fuzzy feeling of fun soloing 4 dots.

But I know what you are thinking. What happens if someone figures out a way to solo a 5 dot. Well that's easy! We'll bring everyone up to the point of soloing a 5 dot, and make 8 dot mobs. We'll just keep doing this because balance doesn't matter and the real idea is just to be sure everyone is having fun. YAY we'll never see nerfs again YAY! YAY the dot system doesn't even matter anymore YAY!

[Sedek]

IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!!!

I fyou want to kill fast play a DPS class. If you want to heal play a healer. if you want to tank play a tank. If the loot and exp are balanced then it truely does not matter.

1 - It doesn't matter to you.

2 - Your system will simply result in a situation where a disproportionate amount of players will gravitate to the class that can kill mobs the fastest in order to most efficiently solo there way to the top. I'm sorry but it has been proven multiple times that the most efficient solo classes are always the most played classes. AND since they can solo there way, efficiently, to max level they don't NEED anyone else.

3 - in terms of the 'balance' of the game and what the devs INTENDED it does matter .... The devs designed the system and the dot system specifically in order to balance the system. A 3-Dot mob should a a duo or hard solo FOR SOME CLASSES, a 4-Dot mob, in comparison, should take a group of 3-4 people to kill, a 5 dot should require roughly 4-6 people, and 6 should require multiple groups .... IF this is NOT how things are in game then there is a problem that needs to be addressed. At that point it is the Devs jobs to look into things and see where the issue is coming from ... and determine the best way to FIX the imbalance in the system in order to bring the challenge in line with what they originally intended for the system.

Sometimes they come to the discovery that, due to a BUG certain abilities are considerably more effective than were intended or designed ... when these are fixed they are often called nerfs ... sometimes an ability was not properly balanced, or the progression was made too steep and it needs to be tuned down to the intended level ... these are always called nerfs .... sometimes mobs are not doing enough damage and it needs to be increased ... these are usually refered to as 'nerfs' in that it lowers player survivability against said mobs. Sometimes they discover that certain classes have higher mitigation than intended..... I think you see where this is going.

[UrielForestwalker]

Youre absolutely right, but the only true way to combat this is longer and larger beta periods..bottom line. Sure some bugs will slip thru the cracks and some will pop up in the future, but if you were in Beta you saw the dramatic changes and fixes that sigil did for us, unfortunately, and this really is not an arguable point, VG was not ready for launch. It was corporate BS that told them launch now, we need money, although sony definitely does not, and "hopefully" not any caring Dev, who honestly thought it was time to launch. In fact, companies of mmos should wise up and say its Final beta launch in which you buy the game, but get 3 free months of beta play which means no whining that things are being fixed and it gives the devs a burst of income and a huge population to test the game.

[vevielle]

Making the perfect MMO is easy!

Why isn't everyone doing it if everyone has all the answers?

=)

[UrielForestwalker]

Time, money, dev base to state a few reasons...just remember that just because someone does do something for a living doesnt mean they cant. Are you telling me the only thing youre good at is playing mmos? or that a job you have is the only thing you could do for a living?

[Aelyia]

I agree with much of what the original poster said.

Nerf'ing is the same as "bait and switch".

Or having your lexus in for a tune up and they stick a limiter on the engine so you can't go over 60. "The speed limit is 60, we noticed you could go faster so fixed it. ".

/shrug, past caring now

No matter how justified it may be, it really should be reserved for something absolutely totally game breaking. Better to adjust the weaker classes to bring them on parity, then add in additional content to balance the changes, rather than modify existing players.

Just my opinion, not a flame. No matter how justified, how needed, or how well intentioned, nerfing will always be perceived as "bait and switch".

Ultimately - Sigil's game, they have the right to do whatever they want, and that is the way it should be.

/sigh