Are people afraid of a challenge?

[Pennilenko]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area to Kaon's Rush(i think thats right) and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"

[ShadeVice]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"


odd problem...explain to them dark blue to yellow 3-4 dots is great for a full group.

anything lower and XP is horrible and loot is lower level.

[Zikkar]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area to Kaon's Rush(i think thats right) and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"

My guess would be they dont want to die deep in a cave/mob infested place and have to summon and lose XP.

[ShadeVice]

My guess would be they dont want to die deep in a cave/mob infested place and have to summon and lose XP.

then play smart and work as a team. be patient.

you wont die and youll have an awesome time.

if people really think like the above qoute i feel sorry for them as they will never enjoy this game fully.

[Dasein]

then play smart and work as a team. be patient.

you wont die and youll have an awesome time.

Until your healer crashes in the middle of a fight or you run into a room where you cannot help but pull a dozen mobs or any of the other things that can go wrong.

[ShadeVice]

Until your healer crashes in the middle of a fight or you run into a room where you cannot help but pull a dozen mobs or any of the other things that can go wrong.

yah things can go wrong...thats life, thats danger.

how would it even be fun or exciting if nothing could go wrong?

when something abnormal happens with my group, we hone our senses and focus. Usually we overcome.

If not, we equip our old soulbound or saddlebagged gear and work our way down to our tombstones..its not that hard.

people give up way too easy.

[Magic_Mirror]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

. . . more stuff . . .

I think its a matter of not understanding what a good group can actually handle. Too many new players come from games where a well organized group was rare. These players don't understand just how powerful classes can be when they work together. I think they are afraid, but for the wrong reasons. They don't realize how easy it is to handle this content if you learn your classes role within a group and learn how to function within that group.

I've seen full groups in VG wipe to named that a group of 3 was able to take down, with both groups being the same level range. I've seen full groups evac on a bad pull, only to have a group with 4 people of the same level, walk up to the same spawn and break it, handling the encounter with no serious danger. There is a huge difference in what a group can do based on a players skill, and too many of the newer MMO players haven't seen what can be accomplished by the most skilled of groups because they have never played a game that demanded it.

[Rasputina]

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content.

This is the main reason I worry about any sorts of death penalty getting harder. Let me be clear, I couldnt care less, but I hate when people arent even willing to take a risk or two.

Exploring as a gobo to generate faction included some pretty fun town chasing me death moments. Oh no i had to call my stone back and carry on.

Sure I can see at higher levels where the xp ammounts take longer to accumulate that folks might start getting a bit more cautious, but up to level 19 where my highest is I just dont see the fear. I'll pretty much try anything with my toon at least once because my RL experience is more important than the VG experience of my toon.

Ie, at the end of the day its how I experience the game, not how much experience my toon gained.

[Sacrificial]

This is the main reason I worry about any sorts of death penalty getting harder. Let me be clear, I could are less, but I hate when people arent even willing to take a risk or two.

Exploring as a gobo to generate faction included some pretty fun town chasing me death moments. Oh no i had to call my stone back and carry on.

Sure I can see at higher levels where the xp ammounts take longer to accumulate that folks might start getting a bit more cautious, but up to level 19 where my highest is I just dont see the fear. I'll pretty much try anything with my toon at least once because my RL experience is more important than the VG experience of my toon.

Ie, at the end of the day its how I experience the game, not how much experience my toon gained.


Penn, What Server you guys on?

[Pennilenko]

Ohh I wanted to add to my OP as well, Why cant people listen to the tanks instructions.

I dont want to tell people how to play their class, I dont care what skills they use. But dammit, when i tell you to give me the first 15 seconds on a 5 dot mob, give my my damn 15 seconds to build agro. I dont know how clear a person has to be. I swear everyone that plays a dps class that i have recently grouped with tries to burn everything down so fast all they do is make the group less efficient.

For people who play dps classes and are looking for the best advice in this game.

In Vanguard good damage is not about how fast you can get your skills and combat arts off, it is about percieving combat as it unfolds to be able to use the right skills at the right time.

For example the above statement is why half the people who play dps classes are happy with their damage, and the other half are not. The happy half have realized that they can optimize their damage by using the right skills at the right time. Sometimes in this game the best damage comes from holding back a little.

[Kelenvor]

I'd go with you in a heartbeat. Though, groups keeping skipping over me in favor of casters. No one seems to love a rogue :cry:

[Pennilenko]

Penn, What Server you guys on?

Florendyl

[Pennilenko]

I'd go with you in a heartbeat. Though, groups keeping skipping over me in favor of casters. No one seems to love a rogue :cry:

I have written your names down, We will look for you when we put groups togather. I love rogues, the good ones do very nice damage, continuous damage. Steady damage, never ending, steam roller style damage.


Im not afraid to invite strange group make ups either!!!!!!!! Just last night, the 2 druids and ranger got upset with me when i filled the last group spot with another tank, i thought that i could work a good tanking strategy with a fellow tank, considering another tank can help my paladin set up more damage based on my skills. They wouldnt have any part of it and left because we didnt have another dps for the last spot.

[Kriptical]

My guess would be they dont want to die deep in a cave/mob infested place and have to summon and lose XP.

heh, I'd rather die and summon than be bored out of my skull... To the OP I cant agree more. Its more than that though, almost a general cloud of stupidity around. Icant tell you how many times i've had some tank fire an arrow into a room full of mobs then as I was rrooting the mobs as they come in stop at the perimeter of camp....bitching about how I was rooting the mobs on him....(swear to god....lord forbid he's actually back the F__ up..) oh btw as they're sitting on the perimeter, in a dungeon guess what happens! You got it....Adds.....cause ya know...pathing mobs...will ... path and stuff...and you may not always see them all the time ! MAYBE!@ Is this why people bitch about the wow//swg//eq2 kiddies? Because, honestly I'd never soil my PC with any of that tripe, going on word of mouth as to it being 'easy' etc..but if thats why people rip on these people I get it now.. So much h9 ><

p.s. If im pulling and i say stick you ass in camp and i'll bring mobs in ...stay the **** in camp..don't let me pull one or 2 then creap up my ass...I mean wtf I just say to you 3 min ago....ENGRISH PEOPLE DO YOU SPEAK IT!@ Heh or even if you dont, im patient, understanding, and largly nice. Be more than happy to convey a few basic movement//combat commands...anytime even.. but when I give you simple instructions...repeatedly...im not doing it fo rmy health>>

p.p.s Heh, while im ranting....Would it kill the pullers(when im not doing it) to freaking call mobs incoming, group moves, etc..you know all the stuff you'd kick a puller out of your group without even thinking about it if we were still in EQ. Lazy slackers ><

[Pennilenko]

heh, I'd rather die and summon than be bored out of my skull... To the OP I cant agree more. Its more than that though, almost a general cloud of stupidity around. Icant tell you how many times i've had some tank fire an arrow into a room full of mobs then as I was rrooting the mobs as they come in stop at the perimeter of camp....bitching about how I was rooting the mobs on him....(swear to god....lord forbid he's actually back the F__ up..) oh btw as they're sitting on the perimeter, in a dungeon guess what happens! You got it....Adds.....cause ya know...pathing mobs...will ... path and stuff...and you may not always see them all the time ! MAYBE!@ Is this why people bitch about the wow//swg//eq2 kiddies? Because, honestly I'd never soil my PC with any of that tripe, going on word of mouth as to it being 'easy' etc..but if thats why people rip on these people I get it now.. So much h9 ><

p.s. If im pulling and i say stick you ass in camp and i'll bring mobs in ...stay the **** in camp..don't let me pull one or 2 then creap up my ass...I mean wtf I just say to you 3 min ago....ENGRISH PEOPLE DO YOU SPEAK IT!@ Heh or even if you dont, im patient, understanding, and largly nice. Be more than happy to convey a few basic movement//combat commands...anytime even.. but when I give you simple instructions...repeatedly...im not doing it fo rmy health>>

p.p.s Heh, while im ranting....Would it kill the pullers(when im not doing it) to freaking call mobs incoming, group moves, etc..you know all the stuff you'd kick a puller out of your group without even thinking about it if we were still in EQ. Lazy slackers ><


Truthfully i dont understand, My wife and i have played WoW and EQ2 Togather, When we duo we are very succesfull, Pick up groups in wow and eq2 we always managed to run a nice well oiled group. But recently in vanguard these people are just comming from a different planet.

For instance, Some places in this game require crowd control. Period.
We couldnt get our druid to use his harmony spell, so that we could split difficult pulls. His arguement was that it gets resisted sometimes. I pointed out his fear was unfounded because his buddy who was also a druid , was given permission to evac if the split got resisted. So he still refused to do it and told us not to tell him how to play, before i knew it all of the people in the group except for my wife took off calling me an elitist snob. I didnt get it. I didnt tell him what spell to use or even how to split them. I just asked him to do his druid thing and pacify a couple of the mobs so we could take the group. Even my wife (who is good at telling me when im out of line) was mystified at this behavior. We happen to know several kids that play EQ2 under the age of 12 who are better more skilled players than what we have to choose from in Vanguard.

Maybe the real problem is that my wife and i level to slow, and all the players we can identify with are alot higher level than us. I dont know.


Ohh by the way i blame Everquest 2 for ditching the whole mechanic of a designated specialty puller. In that game unlike in everquest 1 the tank is often the puller as well, mainly because groups roam through dungeons , they dont set up static camps.

[Nikkoli]

Ohh I wanted to add to my OP as well, Why cant people listen to the tanks instructions.

I dont want to tell people how to play their class, I dont care what skills they use. But dammit, when i tell you to give me the first 15 seconds on a 5 dot mob, give my my damn 15 seconds to build agro. I dont know how clear a person has to be. I swear everyone that plays a dps class that i have recently grouped with tries to burn everything down so fast all they do is make the group less efficient.

For people who play dps classes and are looking for the best advice in this game.

In Vanguard good damage is not about how fast you can get your skills and combat arts off, it is about percieving combat as it unfolds to be able to use the right skills at the right time.

For example the above statement is why half the people who play dps classes are happy with their damage, and the other half are not. The happy half have realized that they can optimize their damage by using the right skills at the right time. Sometimes in this game the best damage comes from holding back a little.


I want to make a minor comment though... As a bloodmage, during that 15 seconds, I might cast entwining vein on the mob because EV heals for less agro than my plain heal spells. If you see a BMG doing this, please dont hate them.

[Pennilenko]

I want to make a minor comment though... As a bloodmage, during that 15 seconds, I might cast entwining vein on the mob because EV heals for less agro than my plain heal spells. If you see a BMG doing this, please dont hate them.

I dont hate on anyone for doing their classes role, I can easily keep agro to a bloodmage healer, its the dps classes that i feel really need a wake up call about being part of a team.

Agro management is the responsibility of the whole group. Groups that fail because the tank cant keep agro mostly are responsible as a whole.

P.S. I understand that is not the rule all the time, sometimes a player will just suck. My above statement is true most of the time though.

[ShadeVice]

I dont hate on anyone for doing their classes role, I can easily keep agro to a bloodmage healer, its the dps classes that i feel really need a wake up call about being part of a team.

Agro management is the responsibility of the whole group. Groups that fail because the tank cant keep agro mostly are responsible as a whole.

P.S. I understand that is not the rule all the time, sometimes a player will just suck. My above statement is true most of the time though.

You are c orrect, thats why DPS classes have personal detaunts etc...

they didnt design the game for tanks to be able to hold agro without any problem.

DPS classes need to know how to not over do it.

[Sasquatch]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area to Kaon's Rush(i think thats right) and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"


I can think of several reasons:

1) they're still on the troll cave quests and they just want to get them done. Some people like to finish quests before they move on.

2) the mob-labelling system isn't exactly easy to understand. Sometimes, you'll take your group into a dungeon and it will be a breeze, but then you'll hit with the same group mobs that appear in the con system to be equal to the ones that seemed so easy to kill before, and you all die. Yes, this could be general incompetence on the part of the group, or fatigue or whatever, but I've been in group against 3 dot green mobs and it was a struggle not to have someone die every two minutes. Just 5 minutes before, we went up against different level-3 blue mobs, and it was easy-mode. So, when someone says, "come on these mobs are ideal for your level," they may be ideal xp-wise, but there's no guarantee that the difficulty-level of the mobs is ideal for my level.

3) the death penalty is a bit severe. At 17, I lose 7k everytime I die, and I die a lot. By a lot, I mean on average at least once for every quest I complete. What this means is that when I die, I might potentially lose more xp than I will earn for completeting the quest unless I am able get my corpse.

Say what you want about whether the penalty is too harsh or not, but I want to feel that at the end of the day, that I've made some progress. So, if the choice is to join a group that's going into the unknown and leaving more xp lying at the bottom of a dungeon than I will ever make by completing that dungeon, or to stick with what I know, I chose the latter. There's nothing worse than logging out for the day with less xp than you started with, and it's very easy for that to happen in this game.

4) Maybe it's different for people with established guilds and groups, where group members know and work well with each other, but the pick-up group experience in this game is on par with the pick-up group experience in every other game I've played. Some people are good, some people (like me) are still learning the game.

Actually, I take that back - it's a little worse in this game, because in addition to the inevitable challenge of grouping with people you don't know too well, there are the problems with the con system, problems of lag, crashes, mob-warping, mob-ham not updating, heals misfiring, etc., etc. that continue to plague this game.

5) Loot issues - I generally avoid joining guild-groups as the third, fourth, or fifth wheel because the attitude always is that the guild is doing me a favor by letting me join the group. Admittedly, this is the case 90% of the time, but still, it's very frustrating to have something nice drop and see it always go to the guild. When I see a guild group looking for non-guildies, I am immediately suspicious -- maybe not rightfully so, but still...

[Dulcina]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area to Kaon's Rush(i think thats right) and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"

I dunno, I wouldn't go do crazy stuff with people I don't know either. Me and my BF duo a lot and we love a good challenge. Wouldn't dream of trying in a pug though unless we played with them for a while and seen that they're skilled players.

I don't wanna die due to other peoples stupidity, that's all.

[ugthok]

Pennilenko, contact me in game please. We've an unofficial fellowship that just loves danger, not sure what level you and your wife are, but we are 16-21ish atm.

About why people do'nt want challenge... alot of people in EQ were like that, where death really could hurt. As a result they did easier stuff, didn't learn their class well, and didn't reap rewards from the extra difficulty. I would go do MPG and risk death every pull, very hard yes, but it was fun! And in WoW, the only reason people grouped was to do a dungeon quest and/or get loot for themselves, the only way to have a challenge was to do them at lower level than needed, which was great fun until you got to the boss and you had no chance since he would be red to you, hate that game :yell: So yeah, I'm one of the ones that will try a red five dot!

Those others think that their level = their fun. So of course they do'nt want to do anything but go forward, forward and forward! Anything that would risk their "progression" cannot and must not be allowed heh. But that's their game.

Edit: Oh Sasquatch's behalf, I fully and totally agree that in no way would I do something very challenging with some pick up group that I didn't know heh. That's not fun, just suicide, and also why we have our growing fellowship, for friendship and a base of skilled players to pull from.

[Bergtooth]

Pennilenko feel free to send me an invite anytime ingame as well (character name is Thrull). Granted I am a warrior too, but in my opinion some of the best groups have a mt and ma (just have one switch to a 2 hander/offensive stance). I don't mind the death penalty as long as I enjoy my travels up to that point. The fear of dying in the pit of an infested dungeon is what makes successfully clearing it so rewarding.

[Minovacy]

I think it all boils down to not many understanding the mechanics of the game yet. They're still playing a class or toon from another mmo instead of playing according to the toon and world they're in.

Splitting heals and over aggroing just plain kills a group. People will sit on their de-aggro until they draw aggro not quite understanding that its more of a gradual de-aggro instead of instant.

All they really do is inhibit the performance of a group as a whole and bring the group closer to deaths door. Me and my gal duo 5 dot named (40 warrior/40 shammy) 2 levels above us and lower and never have problems. Add an over-aggoing dps'r and we wipe.

Add that up.

In retropect: If your not dying, your not trying.

[fcwedd]

My wife and i duo a tank and a healer, we pick up group all the time, guild group all the time. We cannot find people recently who are willing to try anything higher level than they are.

It seems more and more everyday less and less people are willing to tackle level appropriate content. Here is an example, My wife and i were collecting people around veskals exchange, We were aiming to work over the entrance area to Kaon's Rush(i think thats right) and possibly go in a little deeper at a time as we learn the area. Nobody who was from 16 to 19 wanted to even try it out. These people wanted to go to dungeons that were several levels below them. Why in the world would any level 17 player think that running around the troll cave is benificial, at that level?

"Looking for people who dont mind working for a kill!"

Your just a badass.

[ShadeVice]

Your just a badass.

ya man hes hardcore, too bad more players dont take his approach.

He should video his nightly play to teach the masses.

Im not kidding btw, there is no sarcasm even tho you may think so.

[Celidya]

I usually don't like to fight anything big yellow or higher. Why ?

Mainly because it's too long to kill a single mob, and it resist too much. It's not fun to spam 2 or 3 spells, and not use any finisher or anything else because i land almost no crit or get crazy resists. it's much more fun to fight blue or light blue mobs and land those big crits that make the fights much faster, with less downtime, so overall even if the rewards are not better, it's more fun.

On top of that, less chance of dieing if we get a bug/crash/anything, and less chance having to summon the corpse and lose all exp we made.

[DocSavag]

I usually don't like to fight anything big yellow or higher. Why ?

Mainly because it's too long to kill a single mob, and it resist too much. It's not fun to spam 2 or 3 spells, and not use any finisher or anything else because i land almost no crit or get crazy resists. it's much more fun to fight blue or light blue mobs and land those big crits that make the fights much faster, with less downtime, so overall even if the rewards are not better, it's more fun.

On top of that, less chance of dieing if we get a bug/crash/anything, and less chance having to summon the corpse and lose all exp we made.

I generally won't bother to fight anything below dark blue unless I can't ditch it. I try to take on yellow 2 dots unless I can't do a particular type of mob (My Warrior gets owned by 2 level up mobs especially if they can heal! I need to figure out what I'm doing wrong with him or get better gear)

My wife and I play a Bard and a Paladin respectively and we generally try to get mobs that are 3 dot yellows.

[Jeff]

No one gives me, a level 15 sorcerer a chance to get into a group :cry:

Guess I need one more level to get the really hot spells before people will allow me into their pug.

[Minovacy]

I usually don't like to fight anything big yellow or higher. Why ?

Mainly because it's too long to kill a single mob, and it resist too much. It's not fun to spam 2 or 3 spells, and not use any finisher or anything else because i land almost no crit or get crazy resists. it's much more fun to fight blue or light blue mobs and land those big crits that make the fights much faster, with less downtime, so overall even if the rewards are not better, it's more fun.

On top of that, less chance of dieing if we get a bug/crash/anything, and less chance having to summon the corpse and lose all exp we made.

This reminds me of the boy Achilles as talking to in the movie Troy.

"That is why noone will remember your name" :) hehe j/k man

It all comes down to personal pref. You may like what you do and how you play. For someone else though, it may be really boring.

Neither is right or wrong. Just different styles and everyone that pays for their account is entitled to play it how they see fit. It seems my view is near identical to penni's and that is the type of players I surround myself with.

[Keshna]

uhm stupid question...

troll cave? /shakehead what troll cave?

and yeah, people dont want to take anything too tough on. dont know why. my 20 bmg i regularly grind on yellow 3 dots when i solo. yeah i get killed a ton on some types of them, others i steamroll... but wheres the fun if you dont die?

my eq2 motto as a warlock:
its not a raid till the warlock is dead. its not a party till the warlock is naked.

i turned dying into an art form there. damn straight i'm gonna do it here. nods..

[Sylindril]

I agree with the OP people are sometimes afraid.

If there isnt a good chance Ill die, its not enjoyable for me.

I main healed KE at lv 12 bmg, by 14 we were doing the near the kings room and what not.

At 17 I was done with KE, completely been over the entire thing, and done.

now whenever lfg I say for something challenging.

Hate pushing mobs over with ease.

[Robowing25]

To simply answer the topic question:

Yes, yes they are afraid of challenge :)

[DocSavag]

I agree with the OP people are sometimes afraid.

If there isnt a good chance Ill die, its not enjoyable for me.

I main healed KE at lv 12 bmg, by 14 we were doing the near the kings room and what not.

At 17 I was done with KE, completely been over the entire thing, and done.

now whenever lfg I say for something challenging.

Hate pushing mobs over with ease.

I kill Rekk who are grey to me in revenge for all the times they ganked me when they had the upper hand :D

Other than that I generally want a challenge but I'm not up for just frustrating myself without benefit. I'm not taking on a 4 dot yellow dungeon with 2 DPSers and a Tank! :P Give me a healer in there and maybe I'm up for it.

[Sylindril]

I kill Rekk who are grey to me in revenge for all the times they ganked me when they had the upper hand :D

Other than that I generally want a challenge but I'm not up for just frustrating myself without benefit. I'm not taking on a 4 dot yellow dungeon with 2 DPSers and a Tank! :P Give me a healer in there and maybe I'm up for it.

Aye challenge good
Suicide bad

Check your PMs Doc