Raid encounter... with audience??

[Orlun]

Remember back in EQ when you would battle to the bowells of a dungeon and finally come face to face with the resident dragon? If you remember Naggys lair or even Trakanons, you will recall that the ceiling of their rooms opens up to a simulated sky. I imagine this was to provide a RP correct way for the dragon to fly in and out of its lair.

I propose that we take this concept a bit further. For some dragon dungeons, lets have our dragon actually take to the air every so often and go on a quick flight around the surrounding country side. This would require that the geometry of the dungeon and 'skyhole' be built correctly and that in the world above, the hole is visible.

With such a hole, you could even have the ability to crawl up to the edge and "peek" in at the resident bossmob dragon. To prevent exploits, there could be an energy barrier to keep players from jumping in. Now, lets say your a low character in your teens. You crawl to the hole because you have heard legends of the beast within. As you near the edge, you smell the sulphurous reek of the pit and hear the rumbling within. At the edge you catch movement below! Its the Dragon! Risking danger you stare at it in fascination.

But! what's this? You detect movement in the shadows. It looks like a large party of characters. What are they doing? They are preparing to charge in and battle the beast! As you watch, you see them enter the chamber and behold the carnage as it ensues. The earth shakes and the air is split by a terrible roar. Players below are dying right and left but the dragon is taking terrible wounds. Before long, the dragon is dead and you watch those awesome godlike players celebrating and sharing in the spoiles.

This is my vision of encounters that allow lower level audiences. It wouldn't be for many encounters... just a few. But it would still give the lower level players an entertaining way to see a bit of higher adventure. An alternative idea would be entering a dungeon and seeing a wall covered with a huge crystal pane. On the other side is the boss mob of the dungeon... safe behind the barrier. Players could watch the mob and any battles it engages in.

To reduce lag, the view could be one way.

Back to the original dragon in the pit idea... if we let the dragon fly up and about for a bit, this would allow for critical staging time for the party below. Attacks would have to be timed to when the dragon is gone or even lured away. The luring part could be using bait above or doing a quest to trigger the dragon to fly. The dragon could even be non attackable while in flight to preveny bypassing of content. Or, if attacked in the air, it could summon large numbers of higher level dragons to aid it as it fleas and returns to the lair below. This could allow the lower level pit dragon to be used in higher level encounters above.

The sight of a dragon flying in the area and landing in a pit would be an impressive visual cue to the dangers of the area and that lay below. It would be akin to the "High level danger mob in the lower level area" idea similar to griffons in East Commonlands.


What do you think about a few grand encounters having the ability to let others be in the audience?

[Dillgaar]

I got to tag along on raids I probably shouldn't have been able to go on because of people I knew and it was definitely one of the best things about games like EQ...

As far as allowing a mob to leave and rampage the countryside or having it lured from it's lair could easily turn exploitable, in terms of having someone outside looking in that would be cool and all except some of the "uber" guilds may have a problem with this as someone could be sneaking in and stealing their strat... understandable, using the strat isn't everything, you still have to make it work but it could raise a whole bunch of red flags in it's implementation

[Orlun]

Yeah, the "secret strat" thought occured to me which is why I propose only doing this in a few medium level dungeons. As far as the Dragon leaving being exploitable, I was thinking making its flight a quest journey where most of the time it would be unattackable and fixed to its pathing.

[Feyshtey]

A Dragon has to eat, right?

I'd love to see dragons out on midnight snack runs, snatching up deer or other wildlife. And if they can't find that because the area is too heavily hunted... players.

You could avoid exploitation by simply having the dragon run from anyone that's actually able to hurt it. And if the party is strong enough to kill it before it can run, they'd be stupid to stand around in the middle of nowhere waiting for the dragon to show up, rather than going to the lair and taking it down.

[Orlun]

Feys comments made me think of another idea. Dragons are smart. Smart enough to not wait around in their lare if a large party charges in. If we have open roof escape hatches, maybe the crafters would have a role in the dragon raid by weaving a net across the opening, thus trapping the dragon in the lair?

I'd love to come upon a feeding dragon... from a distance of course :p

Another idea would be the dragon outside the lair wouldn't be on the same loot table as then when he is inside his lair. Or the loot would be a horde behind the dragon. The horde could be guarded by impossible summoned pets when the dragon is gone.

[Dillgaar]

Following on this line of thinking, I LOVED how named dragons were wandering around in WoW... they actually had paths... unlike the nested or alley dragons in EQ... and the other pathing dragons there just seemed tethered... it would be nice if there was a path through an entire AREA where a dragon would roam... you would know well enough to keep an wyw out while in that area...

as well I would love to see attack events (ala the 10th ring war in EQ) that happen either through quests on on their own...

say there is a scouting quest that leads you to investigate rumors of undead gathering near a town then you get the reconnaisance done you have to go alert the nearest magistrate and ask for help (during this time you have to track down several key members of the watch and hand them their orders) by the time you get back to the original quest NPC the undead are "preparing to attack" but luckily you have summoned enough of the watch to help you and your friends out...

things like this would be nice... so would large roaming packs of monsters (such as a gnoll tribe or group of undead) that patrol an area and take a small raid force to completely clean out... doing so could launch some type of event... same with a dragon... a smaller dragon is seen wandering around terrorizing the land and when a group of folks defeat it, it's mommy comes running to see what happened to her baby...

[Feyshtey]

I started a thread a long long time ago that you guys might find interesting. Here's the link:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4195

[Orlun]

I started a thread a long long time ago that you guys might find interesting. Here's the link:
http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4195


Amazing thread. I hope to see the day when some of it is realized in MMOGS.

[Feyshtey]

I just re-read that thread, and something interesting to note is that Jerrith was not an SGO employee when he responded there :)

[Orlun]

I just re-read that thread, and something interesting to note is that Jerrith was not an SGO employee when he responded there :)


Thats an interesting observation. When Tanaris was hired by Sigil from Microsoft, they left his old green name and added a new blue name to keep his post histories in context. I would think that any forum members who post and later became Sigil employees should have had the same thing done so that any of their old post couldn't be taken in the wrong context. That said, his comments were benign so maybe its not an issue. Still cool though. Makes you wonder how many other forum member names could end up blue before the end.

[Feyshtey]

Thats an interesting observation. When Tanaris was hired by Sigil from Microsoft, they left his old green name and added a new blue name to keep his post histories in context. I would think that any forum members who post and later became Sigil employees should have had the same thing done so that any of their old post couldn't be taken in the wrong context. That said, his comments were benign so maybe its not an issue. Still cool though. Makes you wonder how many other forum member names could end up blue before the end.

Hell, I don't remember now. I don't recall a blue-name responding there before. But who knows.

[hawnz]

i like the idea. i'd also very much like to see high level MOBs going through low-mid level areas every so often. i know it can ruin your day at orc 1 in WC when a griffin one hit kills you, but man does it make things more exciting, especially when you can go back to that same zone when you've leveled up and get some revenge (F.U. sergeant slate!).

it's great to put good experience zones in the middle of tough areas too. for example, high hold keep was a pain in the butt to get to. kithicor forest was nasty, even at higher levels if you aggroed anything at night, and it was a long run regardless of where you were coming from. but in the end, the experience and pretty decent loot was worth it, and good players were seperated from bad, because it wasn't easy to run back for a corpse run if your group wiped.

so i'd really like to see flying dragons that sometimes spot lowbies running around and swoop in to wreak some havoc. this goes for other creatures too. zones where animals transform into superbeasts at night. giant toothed worms that burrow up from the ground every so often to bring back food for it's larvae. trees who's roots go down into mana pools and give them life, etc.

i'm still waiting for battles with large creatures that actually uses a physics engine to accurately display the power of a dragon or giant (like sauron tossing half a dozen humans a couple hundred feet with each swing of his mace). a giant smashing it's club into the ground should toss everyone in the immediate vicinity on the backs. you'd need a group of heavy tanks with large shields and pikes to hold back the giant while your mages and archers try to take it out before he gets through the tanks.

it will probably be a while till we see these things tho.

[Dillgaar]

The cries of "HERO!!!" in steamfont still get me all excited

[Orlun]

I just had a though expanding on the "boss mob dragon takes flight" idea above. What if, after a certain number of player deaths to that dragon, and when it is again unaggro, it takes flight to 'celebrate' its victory over the players. As it flys overhead... it bellows the names of the players it has killed (or their guild) along with taunts and jeers. :p

Players would be like "I see those f'n SV saps wiped to Nox again! ha!" :)

[hawnz]

or have it take a big dragon dump all over the guild's guildhall that just had a raid wipe.

[Orlun]

or have it take a big dragon dump all over the guild's guildhall that just had a raid wipe.


I chuckle picturing that. :)

[Elrar (of Silky Venom)]

so he pre-wipes before dumping?

These are classy dragons!

:p

I think it would be cool, especially if they terrorized the areas.

It was like that thraed on the forums a while back, wanting to have legendary mobs that roamed the common areas. Like a named troll that would lead raids on small villages that sit at the base of a mountain range.

Just cool things that people remember, like Fippy, or Equestielle the named Unicorn for the druid epic in LFay. I always shivered when I saw her on track!

[Skarlath]

Dragons deserve to be famous. They deserve to be rare, and famous. I think it would be fantastic if a large area was under the shadow of a dragon's rule. Whilst the area is for the most part like any other in the game, from time to time the dragon will leave its legendary lair to hunt.

I would love at least some entities to exist on a dynamic basis. How great would it be if the dragon HAD to eat. It must eat a certain quantity over a certain period of time. Now this is a mighty dragon, so we don't want the consequence to be something to the dragon's detriment. We can't say 'The dragon didn't eat, so he starves to death'. No, the effect of our dragon not getting his food would be that he would travel further afield.

I'm sure the dragon has minions, so they might provide some food (or be it themselves from time to time!). This might involve some smaller minions leaving the lair into surrounding areas and slaying creatures such as deer, carrying the meat back, and presenting it to their lord. Now done on a dynamic basis, the hunger quota is satisfied a little more by every minion who returns with meat. The minions might only search the immediate vicinity, and so they may not (all) return with meat. The dragon wont have had his fill. Or what if players 'intervene' by killing all viable food sources (e.g. overhunting local deer) or perhaps after bumping into some players the scavenging party doesn't return at all. If the minions can't provide, the dragon must do things himself. Our dragon has reached a certain low (perhaps marked against a time period) in their hunger quota. So they take flight.

In Vanguard, birds will fly. There should be no problem in this dragon therefore flying, and swooping down to attack some large creatures. With each kill, the dragon can take meat back to its lair. If still hungry it can hunt again. It will hunt closeby to begin with (go go dragon perception, these deer can hopefully hide from time to time) but in the event of lack of food, it will hunt further afield. Perhaps if it locates a particularly fantastic spot for hunting - an deer filled clearing, or perhaps a small town? - it might record its location and come back later.

Now you don't want your dragon getting hungry too often. A dragon on the wing should be a rare and awe inspiring sight. Something people long to see, or thrilled they can recount to others. These appearances from time to time would make players (who may be fairly low levels) become thoroughly excited at the prospect that they might one day pitch themselves against the beast.

Quite excitingly, the players could have a dynamic effect on the dragon's raids. Overhunting of game around the lair might lead to the dragon attacking local towns, as might killing the dragon's scavenging parties. To avoid having towns trashed and players' lives disrupted players might band together and try and enforce anti-hunting rules. Think ATitD style - with player laws and zoning rights. Perhaps players (if reputation permits) could offer a solution to the local towns NPC mayor that hunting game around the lair should be illegal. Doing so would incur a reputation penalty with the townsfolk.

In fact if times became especially bad, with dragon raids on towns becoming increasingly problematic, players might need to kill game themselves and leave the meat as offerings to the great dragon, to reduce attacks on humanoid communities.


Y'know, that really wasn't on topic. But it was damn fun to think about!


As for viewing the dragon's den, watching raids and the like, it sounds cool. Something that you must be wary of, however, is that you do not want to make the dragon less special. If it was a something discovered by a few people who found a secret path up the mountain then it is one thing. If, however, you have 20-30 people all peering in to watch, just because its a raid night for the best guild on the server, then the effect is somewhat lost. Sighting a dragon must be kept special, and you risk losing that if you can (fairly easily) walk up a slope and peer into the den.


Oh, as for whoever mentioned crafters netting off exits - I love it! I made a post on the OVF a fair while back about 'console style combat', the basic idea being that there might be a number of 'unique to the dungeon' things that must be done to be able to defeat a boss, rather than just the traditional tank fight. Some coordinated effort, such as distracting the dragon whilst crafters quickly set to work would make different instances very special.

:)