Would possibly unsolvable quests offend you?

[Orlun]

One of the draws of early EQ were the numerous quest that were either unsolved or possibly broken. A player starting a quest had no idea how or if it would end up. This kept a sense of suspense in undertaking any quests... at least until they were spoilerized by the data sites.

What would you say if there were extreme level quest that rarely resulted in a conclusion, but yet yeilded greater rewards? Many of these could be simple dead ends, some could be partially finished and lay in wait for future content or expansions. Others could be very very vague and mysterious... sometimes requiring sheer luck or enormous trial and error steps to solve.

These extreme quest could be seperated from the casual quest by the lack of "blue text" response options so players easily offended by such risk could avoid them.

If implimented, these quest would have to have a well grounded set of documentation so the developers could follow their progress and maintain them years down the road, even after multiple changes in staff.

personally, I am intriqued by these things. The old EQ mystery of Myrguls (sp) highway fueled many a mystery fan into trying to solve this unsolvable quest. If such a thing could be integrated into the game, and properly maintained and finally resolved, it would add an amazing and mind blowing "Sixth Sense" type bombshell ending that is currently missing from MMOGs today.

Deeply hidden quest would be possible too...even ingrained into common solved quest. Lets say you have a simple FEDex quest... deliver a secret letter to General Highelf. Lets say without any prompting a daring player smuggles the letter deep into the orc stronghold and delivers it instead to the orc king. Maybe the only clue is a tossed aside elf message sack in the corner of a back room behind the orc kings throne room. This would indicate that he has had other messages in the past. That extreme leap of faith, combined with the huge possiblities of trial and error realized by MMOGs having extremely large populations means that there is a chance someone out of the thousands and millions would put two and two together and try it. Especially if it is discovered that such strange trys can rarely lead to new quests.

So, would you put up with these types of quest foiling your expectations?

Thoughts and ideas?

[Havelock]

I would love to see these in game; that said, I'd probably be pretty frustrated and probably think they were broken and/or reflective of poor design.

[hallower]

umm.. If you're suggesting a quest be presented to players as possibly without conclusion (tentatively) before they accept the quest, then yeah, I can see that being alright. But if the player can only have so many quests in their quest log at a time, can they afford to have quests they can't finish for another 6 months? And are these quests worth the extra whining to the devs that would inevitably result from them?

[Xhar Moondi]

I would love to see these in game; that said, I'd probably be pretty frustrated and probably think they were broken and/or reflective of poor design.
That is why he said they should be marked (and noted imo), that way players know what they are getting into. I really like the idea myself. It kinda makes me mad sometimes when I bust my a$$ on a quest, and know that others are just making a trip to Allawhatever to get the solutions. Not that I don't actually enjoy the quest itself, but when there are rewards involved, it kinda makes it less special having them if anyone who can read can get them :(

[Therian]

Yes and no.

If you mean a 'plot', presented as a sub-quest, which has no conclusion but is simply a mystery - I'm fine with that. These would make fun things to play with in terms of 'world-changing' events. You follow some thread of plot which leads to a locked door which states that this door will not open until *this* happens. And two years later *this* happens, and you head back to the door and find it opens. In other words, the plot-line or quest has some tangible stopping point, where it's obvious that there's no way to progress.

If you mean a quest that you are given, but which is impossible to complete (because the quest item has been deliberately not placed in the world, etc) – no, I wouldn't like that at all. If all the plot-lines or quest clues suggest that you are currently able to find something or trigger something and all you have to do is figure out how… Bah.

The example you describe - of doing something 'outside the quest orders' and unexpectedly producing a new and interesting result. That's a fun possibility, but of course spoiler sites would destroy the 'unexpected' part (same with all quests).

I like being able to figure stuff out. And an evolving mystery is a great thing too. A pretence that it's currently possible to figure it out, if only I clicked on the right thing at the right moment – not so good.

[Ieranii]

I like the idea of super duper long drawn out difficult quests. It would be cool if they set them up though so that it went away after it was finished. They would NOT be soloable quests in any way.

They could make it so that when the quest was completed for the first time the quest starter NPC would no longer give the quest to players. (hear me out!)

The rest of the quest would still work thereby allowing people who had already started the quest to finish it in their own time.

The rewards for such quests could be super nice gear with unique graphics. The rarity of the reward would depend on how fast someone could figure out the quest requirements and get to the end before more people started the quest.

The kicker is once the quest was done a new limited edition quest could be started with another NPC. Limit them to one new quest a month. People would be scrambling to find them if the reward was nice enough and there'd be plenty of mystery surrounding the quests. You'd have different areas, different NPCs, a different quest and different rare reward.

In this way unique items could be slowly filtered into the game and they would remain unique since the first person to finish the quest would shut down the process of starting that particular cycle.

I expect hardcore folks would complete the first few dozen (or hundred?) of these but eventually folks who are slower to advance (like me) would have a chance to possible complete something like this and gain their own unique item without affecting the "uniqueness" of any of the items that came before.

Also the item stats could change as the game matures, expansion are added and gear changes. I'd make the items things that all classes could use like boots. (remember how hard it was to find good boots in eQ?)

Friends and guilds could organize and work on the quests together since it would be in their best interest to get everyone started on it together.

This was just a random thought when I read this thread... ok I'm going back to homework now.

EDIT: one more thing, I would mark them in some way so people would know what they were getting into. That's a great idea, thanks! :)

Edit again: er.. and on the subject of quests that aren't solveable...I'm not so keen. =x I'd prefer long, hard quests that are dynamic.

[Ominous]

As I said on the OVF, I wouldn't be bothered by it. AC1 did this and it worked out fine.

[Eclipse]

What I would like to see are quests that told you what to do, where to go, who to talk to and your reward is a moderate one. But players that thought outside the box and talked to different people, went different places, did it at different times, or delivered more or less than was needed (examples) would come out with a different reward, and noone would know what reward was going to be recieved until they did everything.

Badly explained...

Ok, for instance, the King of Moonyland sends you and your band of merry men and women out on a mission to secure a strategic fort from the oncoming ogre hordes. He tells you what you need to do in order to accomplish it and sends you to talk to the guard at the strategic fort.
However, you believe that you could do it better if you went to a different fort and talked to another guy or girl, then went to the ogre camps and with some hired help from the second fort, slayed the Ogre war-chief. Marauders dissipate and go back to their mountains, leaving the surrounding areas un-ravaged. King is so pleased with you that he gives you a much better reward than he would have...but you would NEVER have known it would work until you went back to him. The quest would be implemented with a dozen or more possible solutions with secondary solutions, etc for a goal, and if you followed one of those criteria, you would succeed and get different rewards. These alternate routes would be completely hidden from you, and if you were not effective in your mission, and the fort was raided by Ogres, you fail and do not get to attempt it again.

I could see it not working as well as I would hope, but even in mine there is a reward for doing it exactly as ordered...but perhaps the reward would be quite a bit smaller than if you thought outside the box.

Just a thought.

-Eclipse

[Orlun]

Ages ago, we learned that Sigils quest system for Vanguard would be based upon the quests having multiple solutions. I'm proposing that they sprinkle a few outrageous leaps of faith into the mix that lead to surprising and very unexpected outcomes. They could tie it into the game clock or weather patterns to further reduce repeatablity or spoilerage.

Keep the players somewhat confused and you keep them hungry for a solution.

[Eclipse]

Yes, I agree.
I would like to see a system where there were millions of random code built into each epic quest that made it next to impossible to research it online before you did it. Raid quest content should, imo, be un-repeatable to an extent. I'm not saying you wouldn't be able to go back to that dungeon to kill stuff and farm for items, but I think in this new 'generation' of gaming, they could possibly create a system where you weren't killing the exact same mob Boss every single time. When you kill an ant queen, the ants get together and promote a new one faster than you could ever imagine. So it wouldn't be that far-fetched to create a system where when you kill 'Fazhrah the Omnipotent' one day, then next week you might face a similar 'Duktraz the Conquerer...friend of Fazhrah!' or something like that. Loot table might be the same, but a slightly different, yet similar type boss would improve the experience so much for me.

Making it a weekly routine to go kill the same named boss over and over again just makes a game eye-stabbingly stale.
so I propose they make quests kinda like this as well!

-Eclipse

[Skarlath]

Some story dead ends would be nice, and personally I don't think that players should necessarily be told they are embarking on a possible dead end. Fitting with the multiple solutions system that Orlun pointed out, it would be great if some paths seemed like they were going somewhere, but ended up leading to nothing.

Some quests with extremely tough solutions would be great, but if the toughness comes from an item being a rare drop, or something similar, don't let players know the criteria if you can help it. We don't want a repeat of the SWG 'Holocube' escapade.

Uncompletable quests are fine in my book - quest rewards should simply be delicious bait to tempt you and your friends into an adventure. Just because 'Pirate John's Chest of Treasure' was no longer hidden where the clues said is was, doesn't mean the adventure should yield nothing for your party.

This is a place for games to break away from a somewhat min/maxing attitude - 'If it doesn't give me the best xp and loot, its not worth my time' - and more towards an adventurous attitude. The attitude that says "Well I didn't even know there was a cave there, whether there is a chest of treasure at the bottom or not, im gonna explore!"

[Kalyper]

I'm a big fan of Lore. And I remember quests like these in EQ1 that would dead end or end mysteriously. I like em. While there can be frustration with some, it also leaves you guessing. "What could have happened?" "Where did they go?" "Where could this item/artifact/whatever have ended up?" Questions like these can run through your mind and and make you want to know, just what is next. I like the mystery in it all. And I wouldn't mind quests like this in Vanguard, especially if they continue in later patches/expansions.

[vaelyn]

I would love to see these in game; that said, I'd probably be pretty frustrated and probably think they were broken and/or reflective of poor design.

Agreed. If there was something in the quest that indicated that it could not be solved (aka part of the storyline), I would be less miffed. I had my handful of broken quests in WoW and I usually thought it was lame. I'm one of these people that needs a sense of closure. As for rewards... meh. I mean, I dig rewards and I may fling a cuss or two when it sucks, but I use quests to give me something to do, something with a goal rather than just beat up random mob.

[hallower]

Really, I would prefer surprises to just leaving us hanging. Like maybe you thought the quest was leading somewhere, but you eventually find out that your job was a diversion or something and you receive very little reward. I wouldn't mind getting shafted on the reward half as much as I would being left wondering.

On the other hand, nobody had figured out how to unlock a force-sensitive slot in SWG for over 7 months and we were still having fun looking for it. So I don't mind quests that are nearly impossible to figure out, but we are assured actually have a solution. And with Vanguard's flagging system, there's all sorts of possibilities for players having to figure out what item or quest they need to flag themself to complete the quest.

[Xhar Moondi]

[edit]

[Skarlath]

On the other hand, nobody had figured out how to unlock a force-sensitive slot in SWG for over 7 months and we were still having fun looking for it. So I don't mind quests that are nearly impossible to figure out, but we are assured actually have a solution. And with Vanguard's flagging system, there's all sorts of possibilities for players having to figure out what item or quest they need to flag themself to complete the quest.

But the solution shouldn't involve everyone on every server camping for the damn cubes.

It was damn exciting trying to guess what we might have to do to open the force slot. When people started getting somewhere with their ideas, it was great! When people started becoming jedis whilst most others didn't know how, again it was very exciting.

Grinding cubes and grinding profession xp was not so great.

So dead ends shouldn't involve boring time sinks. Thats something worth remembering. If a player will run into a brick wall, they shouldn't have been bored out of their minds for the last 3 weeks getting there. They should have enjoyed the experience, and so wont mind so much when they realise the story behind the red herring they embarked on.

[Loampounder]

Two answers – I would not be offended by such deep quests, but I feel that I would be in the minority in today’s MMO audience. There must be a way to put details like this into the game without facing a back-lash of “broken quest” complaints. The easiest way is to make them hidden so that the basic player does not casually come by them. One direct way of doing this is NOT to suggest rewards and NOT to initially reference it as a quest. Obviously, true broken quests are a problem (flashbacks to beginning of SWG and NPC’s speaking in punctuation).

What we are talking about here may not be appreciated by a large portion of the game population, so it’s value is suspect. I enjoy deeper quests and finding out more details in the game, but most people would not do quests for purely esthetic reasons. Worse, these deeper quests generally have to be harder, more subtle, and smarter than general quests. It would take a lot of design time to build in the hidden structure, let alone code quests that few people will partake in. I will leave it up to the game designers and Sigil to decide if something of this scale is valuable or not.

I think of quests this deep relating more to lore than reward items. Driving the quest through a promise of loot would only make them treadmills or disappoint people. There heritage quests in EQ2 were a good idea, but they quickly became treadmills for item X or status points Y. The idea of a singular, unique item is good as a reward, but it cannot be a motivation (cannot advertise it so will not work as motivation) and could cause people to become disgruntled if they come to expect an item. The focus needs to be on more intangible stuff, like titles, statutes, including PC names in future lore, and the general warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing you can reveal a secret to the community.

As I said, these quests need to be lore-based. I love the mystery hidden in EQ: the cauldron symbols, the druid symbols, etc. The steps are not supposed to be based on NPC clues but concepts placed into the lore. It would be a much more holistic approach. Use motivations of races or tribes rather than something an NPC said. Actually, a combination of lore clues and guesses by the PC – lore tells us that a certain faction of the elves has fought for generations against a certain faction of orcs, so the PC decided to turn in an elven note they found. Perhaps I am short-sighted, but any more concrete links would lead to short-lived quests that would be posted on Allakhazam in a few weeks. The major purpose of these quests would be to expand the lore or explain some reason that the lore only hints at. For example, investigating the hatred between the Druidic Elf sect and the orc Miners Guild leads to an ancient druid grove that legend says was lost ( and could open a new ruin site as well as the hidden orc cave they built to catch the elves unaware).

I would suggest that these quests not be viewed as “quests” but legends or rumors. By simply changing the jargon, we change expectations and let people know what to expect. I think a small industry would be formed in the game world of people comparing rumors and legends. I have seen players eagerly plot out legends (but later squashed by the knowledge that they were not in game) so there is indications that many people want them. People would only be offended if they are strung along by the developers or some poorly worded press release. Because of examples like Frogloks in EQ2 and Jedi in SWG, Sigil would need to not hype these things. It’s a hard job to motivate but not hype.

[Dillgaar]

I would like to see a type of flag based questing or item centric questing...

mainly, you hail an NPC and depending on if you are wearing a certain piece of equipment or have done certain quests or tasks or even just killed certain named mobs and have the NPC give you different text...

EG:

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Mighty fine day we are having aren't we? It's good to be able to see the sun again after being stuck in that [closet] for so long."

to having killed the Marauding Marauder (named mob in some nearby zone)...

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Dillgaar... hmmm now that sounds familiar weren't you the one that slew the Marauding Marauder? Wow! It's a pleasure to meet you! Hey, this may be a bit forward but I have a [favor] to ask you."

to wearing the Codpiece of Fortitude...

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Hey, that's a mighty fine codpiece I see you are wearing. I had one once like that a long time ago. Found it in a troglodyte camp when I was exploring [Spooky Mountain]."


This way differen't quests will come from different locations, and there would be some quests you would never know about unless you met the specific conditions for unlocking that specific quest. I know there are people out there who like to be able to do every quest and see every thing, but in an MMO that just isn't very possible. I think the dynamics of quest systems like this would help to relieve the drollness that current quest systems induce on people... offering multiple ways of completing a quest either for similar or even different rewards as some of you have said would be another way to break the humdrum.

[Garioch]

Orlun
I am not certain that an unsolveable puzzle or quest would be attractive what so ever.
However, a progressive quest was what I thought the EQ epics should have been.

Imagine the Ranger epic in EQ, a pair of swords.
Now along comes Epic 1.5 and ~drum roll~ not just ANOTHER sword but a wooden to boot ~rim shot~
Talk about a let down, for one, and two more junk to put in a bag or in the bank because the attributes of the original epics are not something you want to be caught without sometimes (like when the slower goes LD and you need that Earthcall proc).

How about if they had added aug slots to the existing epics, and made the 1.5 and 2.0 quests for weapon upgrades and augs to fill in the stats and attributes that the new weapons possess?

I blame shortsightedness and game mechanic idiocy for this step that Sony took on this issue.
None the less, that would be my idea of a progressive quest that I would actually be interested in doing...

Garioch

[Skarlath]

I would like to see a type of flag based questing or item centric questing...

mainly, you hail an NPC and depending on if you are wearing a certain piece of equipment or have done certain quests or tasks or even just killed certain named mobs and have the NPC give you different text...

EG:

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Mighty fine day we are having aren't we? It's good to be able to see the sun again after being stuck in that [closet] for so long."

to having killed the Marauding Marauder (named mob in some nearby zone)...

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Dillgaar... hmmm now that sounds familiar weren't you the one that slew the Marauding Marauder? Wow! It's a pleasure to meet you! Hey, this may be a bit forward but I have a [favor] to ask you."

to wearing the Codpiece of Fortitude...

Poop McPooperson says, "Hello Dillgaar! Hey, that's a mighty fine codpiece I see you are wearing. I had one once like that a long time ago. Found it in a troglodyte camp when I was exploring [Spooky Mountain]."


This way differen't quests will come from different locations, and there would be some quests you would never know about unless you met the specific conditions for unlocking that specific quest. I know there are people out there who like to be able to do every quest and see every thing, but in an MMO that just isn't very possible. I think the dynamics of quest systems like this would help to relieve the drollness that current quest systems induce on people... offering multiple ways of completing a quest either for similar or even different rewards as some of you have said would be another way to break the humdrum.

I think questing like this is nice, because even though the task from the NPC who admired Dilligar's codpiece might not lead to much in the end, it allows a definite personal feeling. Allowing the player to carve their way through Vanguard's content, rather than systematically plod through it instead.

Oh, and if we don't have Marauding Marauders in Vanguard then the Sigil devs obviously just aren't creative enough.

[Orlun]

I'm not talking so much of quest like "Go find this or that" and have them unsolvable... I'm talking clues and hints that may not lead to a quest or a resolution. If there are such clues or hints in game, then someday there may be a continuation quest or storyline that builds off of them. It all goes back to MMOGs before the quest journal. It was up to the player to keep track of what they were after and what was required, not some log book.


In EQ, "Miragul's Highway" is exactly what I mean. Clues and hints spread throught the cities, but no quest...or is there? we never found out.

Google it if your interested.

[Elrar (of Silky Venom)]

Progressive quests would rock, and actually, the bards did get basically an upgrade to their epic through their 1.5/2.0 quests, which was very nice. However, if anyone ever read what bards had to do for their epics...well, you'd be eating your eyes right now screaming horrors with night terrors of kiting Fear forever killing amaligilyian warriors....not to mention...everything else...0_0

That said, I'd love to be able to do quests that have arching storylines over years, levels, and expansions. In WoW, I loved alot of the stories they had for the newbie quests, I got very involved, and was ready to rock and roll, and then bam, they just stopped, leaving you hanging. It was very unsatisfactory.

Now if you could continue these storylines, that eventually led you to the parties responsible for causing evil and fear within Telon, well that would rock, because eventually peoples paths would merge, and then explode outwards again as the progression of their "epic" quests changed.

Deffinately though I would love a truly gigantic ongoing quest, that involved you deeply into the lore, and was based around your own personal feelings and views of the world itself.

Of course, the logistics and planning required would be rediculous for so much multi tiered and intertwining going on. One can dream though :D

[Skarlath]

It all goes back to MMOGs before the quest journal. It was up to the player to keep track of what they were after and what was required, not some log book.

Ok, I think im with you a little more now.

One player might make rough notes, but another player might record everything comprehensively and be in awe when the hint of a story carries on in patches far far later.

From what I remember(and someone already mentioned this) AC1 did have many situations like this. As you all know, their story arcs were second to none. Some smaller quests might give you a piece of a story (Thorsten Cragstone - the green knight, for example) but then when the story arc spilled out its bounty much later, you would see how the story of Cragstone's final days fits into the entire history of Dereth.

People say WoWs lore is good, because of the comprehensiveness of lore from the previous Warcraft games. However I never felt too in touch with it. I never felt the awe that I felt when I heard about Cragstone's green cuirass, which could still be found deep in his dungeon tomb. Or the amazement when I participated in Martine's part of the saga.

I think games like AC1 and EQ probably were made special by hints at a past that players weren't there to witness. And so if this discussion was posed as a question from Sigil then i would definitely say YES! Give us hints to wonder at. Hints from items we might find, or a place we might visit, a quest we might complete, a book we might discover or an NPC we might talk to. Make us wonder whether there is more to the story than we know so far. Even if these are not always developed, the times they are will make the game feel the way it should.

[Loampounder]

I wonder if the unsolveable quests were great because they were a) unsolveable and b) players' desires and efforts made them more mythical that they really were. Did EQ designers ever ponder a story behind the markings on the druid rings or Neriak cauldrons? During the hunts for the answer, players usually attribute more creativity or ingenutity to designers than the designers actually showed. So, sounds like it would be BETTER if the quests were unsolveable.

As long as the designers don't TELL anyone that they are unsolveable.

[Dillgaar]

I still remember the original soulfire quest and how paladins were scrambling like mad to try to find and figure out the quest... I think that was onw of the one quests that was so incredibly hard to find out... the addition of the epics past that point kind of lessened the impact of the whole line of quests...

those were the quests I remember and still enjoy in a game

[Skarlath]

I wonder if the unsolveable quests were great because they were a) unsolveable and b) players' desires and efforts made them more mythical that they really were. Did EQ designers ever ponder a story behind the markings on the druid rings or Neriak cauldrons? During the hunts for the answer, players usually attribute more creativity or ingenutity to designers than the designers actually showed. So, sounds like it would be BETTER if the quests were unsolveable.

As long as the designers don't TELL anyone that they are unsolveable.

Well b) really brings out what is special about MMORPGs. Things like the druid rings in EQ would have continuously had players wondering.

I can't tell you how long I spent as a newbie in AC1 running around in those damn underground rooms in every town. Those ones with the antechamber, the stone throne, the three side rooms and the mana pools that players later used for efficient macroing. I was convinced there would be a secret passageway, or something special if I visited them all.

:)

[Sergo]

Part of the magic of Norrath were the things that made you wonder. The ruins in Kithicor... the chessboard... the cave under the ice river in Everfrost. "What the hell happened here? How can I find out? Is this the key to something really big?"

I think Orlun has a good idea. I remember a few times I thought I had an idea on a quest, but they didn't pan out. There should be enough payoff on just a few of those crazy notions to make players constant wonder, "Could it be?"

[Nath'aal]

I'm going to rephrase and expound on what I said on the OVF. Anything you can think up is fine with me, just so long as it works as intended. That said, I can imagine the devs writting part of a quest that would not have an complete ending until a later expansion, however, I canNOT imagine them writting a quest that no matter how much you work you are going to get nothing. Also, with a quest that is designed to be solved at a later expansion I think there would be some kind of hint (however vauge or obscure)that that is the way it is intended. In conclusion, Broken quests (I thought the Miragul thing was determined to be broken?) are bad, mmkay.

[Eclipse]

I understand now, Orlun. I thought your question was a bit different. Skarlath helped me understand it better with his allusions to AC (which is what i played in EQ's stead). I loved that game quite a bit, and I have to agree that there was an awe felt in its storyline that goes unmatched from what i've seen from any other game.
Some of the mobs they created were also pretty incredible. Until the last dregs of their first expansion when they started bringing in EQ mobs like frogs and crap. Virindi (http://www.thejackcat.com/AC/Pets/virindi.htm) were my absolute favorites...always will be.

Those guys were awesome. I know Ominous agrees with me! ;)

Storyline quests that aren't solvable for months later would rock my world, plain and simple, I'm glad I understand now.

-Eclipse

[Orlun]

That sense of wonder about if something is a quest or not is what I fear Vanguard could miss if it has the standard EQ2 type quest journal. Once a quest is activated or triggered, it is written in you journal and there is no doubt that your on a quest. Sooner or later, players will finish the quest and move on. I want there to be a more devious level to some quest. A level that requires only the most curious and determined fact finder to even know a quest exist... or explore places where most other players give up. Unacknowledged quests are the key.

[Nath'aal]

From that perspective...I suppose...you could have unfinishable (is that a word?) quests. For example you could over hear two people talking about...well...anything, but lets just say a lost item. There could still be a entry into your journal that says something like you heard soandso talking about a missing item. There would be no other direction, not even a general locale to look for said item. If I understand what you are saying, it could be possible that you will never find this item, yet there is an entry into your journal. This gives you back the feeling that you had when there was no journal (I think).

I don't know...maybe. I mean I would have to look at that unfinished quest for the rest of my playing time...I would have to have some kind of dev acknowledgement of this quest and them telling me its not broken (even if there is no way to finish it) and that it is working as inteded. And even still, it would flick the back of my OCD head until it was finished. I'm not sure I would like it. All I can say is maybe.

[Orlun]

Maybe then the official quest trigger could be very hard to find or activate. Non quest journal triggering clues and hints could exist in the game to direct the players to where these hidden quest begin. Players would have to hit the clues correctly in order to be granted the quest. Hidden flags could be used to record if the players progress in finding these clues. All this preliminary stuff would be off the quest journal.

[Nath'aal]

Now quest that start but aren't logged into your journal until sometime later is a different story. Vague hints that you would have to pick up on and would secretly flag you sounds great. But does this accomplish the desired effect? Those old unfinished EQ quests do have a certain mystique about them. Towards the end of my EQ career I started researching how far some of them had gotten and started searchig a bit for solutions myself. The problem was when I found out most (if not, all) of the unfinished quests were just broken. This is what I want to avoid. If sometime later down the line someone picks up an old quest that hasn't been finished, they should be assured there is, or will be, a way to finish it. You see what I'm saying? I like your intentions (and I believe I now fully understand them), but there has to be something there. Like I said before, it could just be a dev acknowledgement of a quest and that it is working as intended, whatever that may be.

[Eclipse]

Do we know for sure we will have a journal? I hope we don't.

-Eclipse

[Orlun]

Do we know for sure we will have a journal? I hope we don't.

-Eclipse

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/faq.php?faq=31#faq_31_8

[Fynn]

Ages ago, we learned that Sigils quest system for Vanguard would be based upon the quests having multiple solutions. I'm proposing that they sprinkle a few outrageous leaps of faith into the mix that lead to surprising and very unexpected outcomes. They could tie it into the game clock or weather patterns to further reduce repeatablity or spoilerage.

Keep the players somewhat confused and you keep them hungry for a solution.

Well the OP reminded me of the frustration of beating on the alleged oaken scimitar quest in early EQ1 that had something to do with saving the ambassador from an assassin. I can't remember if it was a busted quest that eventually got fixed or just forgotten. The most frustrating thing about it was not being sure if it was a broken quest or if I just needed to keep pluggin away at it. How do you get around that? I'm happy (enough) to keep pluggin away at a challenging puzzle, but feeling like the puzzle is busted is just plain not fun.

Other than that....I would love being rewarded for an outrageous leap of faith that could not necessarily be easily recreated.

I really like the idea of consequences for screwing up the inevitable fed/ex quests and othe similar multiple non-linear outcomes.

As far as weather being a variable, along similar lines I was thinking the other day that a detailed night sky with it's own constellations would lend itself to all kinds of "proper alignment of the stars" variations and quests. But I digress...sorry, bad habit.

[Skarlath]

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/faq.php?faq=31#faq_31_8

Its purpose is ultimately to store information about locations that don't necessarily have to do with a quest.

Hmm, I didn't realise that before. Hopefully this means that the quest journal will not be as comprehensive as journals in WoW or EQ2. Throughout this discussion I have felt more and more that the world is a better place if players aren't given all of the information. That way they are left to wonder about it.

Morrowind's quest journal always gets mentioned at some point or another ... but it is a clear comparison. If Vanguard's quest journal was to take a more 'written notes' form, but perhaps a little more organised than Morrowind's (the ability for the player to move entries around and add their own notes would be nice) would be quite ideal. Initiators would flag you, but in many circumstances would also cause the character to write what they know about it into their diary.

How would that be for mystery? This would force even unobservant players (or those who are too lazy to care) to wonder. You stumble upon a stone circle, and your character writes about it in their journal - not about any more than they know, "I stumbled upon a strange stone circle blah blah". If the player walks close to a certain stone then they might notice runes, and the entry into the journal would update.

Perhaps the character could have a little more memory than the human controlling them, and might draw comparisons that the player did not notice - "The stones are the same as those of the stone circle far to the east, and to my knowledge these stones do not naturally form in this area".

I know that if I was to experience this stone circle, I would wonder if there is more to come in the story. I might draw a comparison between what my character has already witnessed elsewhere, or I might not. I know for sure that I would feel far more involved if I thought "Hmm, identical stone circles, stones brought in from afar ... maybe I should keep my eyes peeled for an NPC who can tell me more" rather than 'Ding! You have a quest called "Talk to Drovan Matleghast about the stone circles".

Mystery is fantastic, and a quest journal could surely be used as a technique to enhance it, rather than turning the game into a column of tick-boxes.


Virindi were my absolute favorites...always will be.

I was actually frightened of Virindi in my AC days. I was always a noob at heart in Dereth, and the sight of a Virindi scared the pants off of me. I was forever haunted by the first time I had been given a portal to the west. On the other side I had run through the desert a while, and could see high level creatures around me. I was out of the aggro range of one particular Virindi, but as I ran past it, it turned and out of my speakers came a harsh, whispering voice ...

"I see dead people ..."