Why did Brad use a Vision™ in VG

[Johnhost]

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

[Tirolan Lioncourt]

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.

[givionte]

Who cares? The game is fine, just play it for gosh sakes.

[piknik2]

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

Unless their current MMORPG is VG.. and they leave for 'greener' pastures; leaving what money for all this supposed goodness to happen?

Also, agree with Tirolan in that everyone is always searching to recreate that first magical MMO experience they had whether it be EQ or otherwise ( for me that was Ragnarok, feel free to laugh it up heh ) but that feeling can never be recaptured. However, you may once again get something close to that feeling by playing something completely NEW; alas this and the countless other innovation-less clones cannot hope to do that for you.

[Aginor]

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.


When you say "You people" it doesnt sound like you've actually played EQ.

Besides, i've played UO, muds before that and even AO, DaOC, AC, Lineage in between all that, and have always come back to EQ. Even took a break from EQ2 to play EQ again for a while.

Why did i quit in the first place? Well i played it continuously the first 3 years, played alltogether like 6 years, thats a sign of a game delivering.

It also had "soul" compared to todays games.

AND *drumroll* the community was nothing short of awesome, best people i've played with, ever.

Oh well :)

[SolZer]

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!

When it was evaluated as to WHY these problem existed, it was determined that SOE lacked a Vision for the game and was haphazardly releasing expansions for subscriber numbers, but ignoring the existing players totally.

The classic server thread:

For those disgruntled players may turned to an idea of a "classic server" and the thread on EQ's forums shows just how much this idea caught on. In fact you could say the progressive servers were SOE's response to this idea.

Everquest 2:

Listening to the whining and moaning of the forums SOE developed EQ2 and most of the game play mechanics designed to cut down on customer service issues (like training, kill stealing, etc). But they also created a quest driven game with more instancing and again took the EQ franchise down a completely different path. EQ2 didn't feel like it was really Everquest.

It was realized after playing EQ2 that their vision was totally different then the original EQ and so it didn't solve the classic players concerns.

Vanguard to answer these concerns:

Brad knew as we all did that Everquest was a success because of it's game play mechanics. It was addictive because the risk vs. reward was there. In EQ2 dying felt so easy compared to EQ1, and as a result MOBS and dungeons didn't have that heart stopping fear to it, lost it's mystique.

As the hopes for Vanguard went into design, the FAQ naturally came out of that, and those EQ1 players who felt by this time disenfranchised by the new direction of EQ were getting excited! These players stuck with Sigil through the beta phase and I remember the sheer mania to be in beta. We wanted to get that "first kiss" experience again.

What happened:

Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.

People talk about the Vision™ changing, it didn't change, the game IS NOT finished yet. There really is NO polish, and many of the featured we were promised will come later on down the line.

Conclusion:

Sometime down the road Sigil will put in the polish, add the features we are waiting for, and squash bugs. At some point people's PC's will be upgraded and they will get bored with their current MMORPG. I think everyone sees this game's awesome potential, but until they do these things most people will stay away.

A lot of what made EQ successful for it's generation was due to the fact that there wasn't much competition. It was absolutely revolutionary for its time, and there wasn't a heck of a lot to compair it to. Fortunately, there's a lot of competition these days, so unfortunately a game just like EQ will never be as successful as EQ.

In addition to this, the memories and feelings you had during this time will never be able to be replaced. It's time for new memories and new feelings. Nothing ever will be able to replace the experiences and feelings you had when playing your first gen MMO.

For some it was EQ. For others it was UO or even AC. Heck, my first MMO is still my favorite. Do I still play that game today? No. Why? Well, it's just not the same. What I miss and fell in love with was the EXPERIENCE.

There are all kinds of variables that go into an experience, and the game is but one.

I really hate to say it, but it's just the God honest truth.

[Aginor]

A lot of what made EQ successful for it's generation was due to the fact that there wasn't much competition. There wasn't a lot to compair it to. Fortunately, there is a lot of competition these days, so a game just like EQ will never be as successful as EQ was.

In addition to this, the memories and feelings you had during this time will never be able to be replaced. It's time for new memories and new feelings. Nothing ever will be able to replace the experiences and feelings you had when playing your first gen MMO.

For some it was EQ. For others it was AC. Heck, my first MMO is still my favorite. Do I still play that game today? No. Why? Well, it's just not the same. What I miss and fell in love with was the experience.

There are all kinds of variables that go into an experience, and the game is but one.

I really hate to say it, but it's just the God honest truth.

Besides, i've played UO, muds before that and even AO, DaOC, AC, Lineage in between all that, and have always come back to EQ. Even took a break from EQ2 to play EQ again for a while.

Why did i quit in the first place? Well i played it continuously the first 3 years, played alltogether like 6 years, thats a sign of a game delivering.

It also had "soul" compared to todays games.

AND *drumroll* the community was nothing short of awesome, best people i've played with, ever.

Oh well :)


I hate quoting myself :)

Did you ever play EQ?

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

For anyone who's saying that VG doesn't have the potential to recapture the magic of EverQuest, the second I logged in, heard the music and saw the typeface above the NPC's name in Tursh, my nostalgia was eased a great deal.

I can't imagine if they gave it the ol' EverQuest spirit but doing away with the whiners and build towards how the game is meant to be made.

[Kenak]

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.
I can prove you wrong right now: I played on The Combine, and had a blast. Granted a few things were there that were meh, but all and all it was almost as good as when I first played EQ. In fact, things got better and better: Kunark and Velius were actually great expansions that really improved gameplay (I never noticed the Original Planes to care). Once Luclin came out, the game felt (while not too much) different and lost a bit of its appeal. Once PoP came out, I was gone.

I can tell you that I have a more thrilling time grouping on Orc Hill in EQ1, than duoing Blackburrow in EQ2, fighting Yellow Heroic spiders that are supposed to be difficult. And if you die? I get 0.5% experience debt and respawn at the entrance of the dungeon.

[SolZer]

I hate quoting myself :)

Did you ever play EQ?

Yes. It's been a while, but yes I did play.

[Isobel]

The polish, which i agree is icoming, and The Vision™ aren't the same thing at all and a good deal of those things which were advertised have already been abandoned...so yes, the vision has changed.

[SolZer]

The polish, which i agree is icoming, and The Vision™ aren't the same thing at all and a good deal of those things which were advertised have already been abandoned...so yes, the vision has changed.

Right, and IMO this is a GOOD thing. If visions never changed we would have NEVER had EQ to begin with. We'd all be playing MUDs still.

[Aroua999]

I can prove you wrong right now: I played on The Combine, and had a blast. Granted a few things were there that were meh, but all and all it was almost as good as when I first played EQ. In fact, things got better and better: Kunark and Velius were actually great expansions that really improved gameplay (I never noticed the Original Planes to care). Once Luclin came out, the game felt (while not too much) different and lost a bit of its appeal. Once PoP came out, I was gone.

I can tell you that I have a more thrilling time grouping on Orc Hill in EQ1, than duoing Blackburrow in EQ2, fighting Yellow Heroic spiders that are supposed to be difficult. And if you die? I get 0.5% experience debt and respawn at the entrance of the dungeon.

I'm not trying to be jerk, I am just confused as to how any part of this staement proved him wrong? It sounds to me like you are agreeing with him. Maybe I'm just not readin your correctly.

He is saying EQ was awesome in it's own right, but also because it was unique at the time. Now there are none that uniques so capturing that unique fell is harder. You just seemed to agree with what everyone else here is saying. ??

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.

[Isobel]

Right, and IMO this is a GOOD thing. If visions never changed we would have NEVER had EQ to begin with. We'd all be playing MUDs still.

The fact that visions change is, as a general rule a good thing. The direction in which this game is chaging isn't good, as far as i see it.

[Aginor]

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.



awkward comparisment =/

[Sylindril]

For anyone who's saying that VG doesn't have the potential to recapture the magic of EverQuest, the second I logged in, heard the music and saw the typeface above the NPC's name in Tursh, my nostalgia was eased a great deal.

I can't imagine if they gave it the ol' EverQuest spirit but doing away with the whiners and build towards how the game is meant to be made.

Agreed, pretty much the only thing for me that really blows about Vanguard is the little kids on the forums.......hanzo.....displeasingrealilty.

The game and these forums is like night/day, guess this is as good a place as any to absorb the venom, game on.

[Sylindril]

The fact that visions change is, as a general rule a good thing. The direction in which this game is chaging isn't good, as far as i see it.

If you build it they will come.

VG needs to stick to the vision, polish her up and they will come.

If it becomes a victim of wowification, than ya it was a bad direction.

[SolZer]

Comparing a first kiss being special to your first MMO being special isn't a fair comparison.

First kisses last a few seconds to a few a more seconds. For many of us, we grew with EQ for years.

Saying that no game will ever have the magic of EverQuest is like saying if you're married and your spouse dies you should give up hope of finding someone else to love just as much.

Interesting analogy here. True, you shouldn't give up hope for finding someone new that you love just as much, but that first spouse will be irreplacable from a memories point of view, or kids point of view, etc. You may find someone new, but no two people are the same. You will not love the same things about them.

Requiring that your new love be just like your old love will quickly result in you being alone. Trust me on that :P

[Isobel]

If you build it they will come.

VG needs to stick to the vision, polish her up and they will come.

If it becomes a victim of wowification, than ya it was a bad direction.

That's pretty much how i see it.

[SolZer]

The fact that visions change is, as a general rule a good thing. The direction in which this game is chaging isn't good, as far as i see it.

Well, can't really argue with someone's personal opinion. You may not like the direction, while other may. Just how it is.

I have my personal opinions too, and I am extremely hopeful for Vangaurd, but there is a lot I don't like about it right now.

[Kexin]

You people need to let EQ go. The MMORPGs in general have changed a great deal since then and there will never be a game like that again. People are no longer willing tolerate boats, long travel time and game mechancis that basically are designed to frustrate. Sure there are fans of this style of gaming but they're hardly enough hem to fill two servers.

Having said that VG is nothing like EQ. The death penalty is relatively painless and at its worst it is similar to EQ2's shard system upon release. There are porters for continental travel just like EQ2 (the day they force everyone to use the boats is the day this game die) and for the most part VG is extremely solo friendly provided you play the right class. In fact this game is more solo friendly than EQ or EQ2 ever was.

[Kenak]

I'm not trying to be jerk, I am just confused as to how any part of this staement proved him wrong? It sounds to me like you are agreeing with him. Maybe I'm just not readin your correctly.

He is saying EQ was awesome in it's own right, but also because it was unique at the time. Now there are none that uniques so capturing that unique fell is harder. You just seemed to agree with what everyone else here is saying. ??
I apologize if I articulated my words poorly. Let me rephrase.

He said EQ1 was good because it was our first, but now it's outdated and poor. I am saying that I tried the Combine, and sure, it's not exactly the same (Ie. that feeling of being overwhelmed and thrown into this strange world), but the game mechanics and everything else was there. With each expansion that was unlocked, the game got better. Once Luclin was unlocked, the game went down. Once PoP was unlocked... bleh.

What that means is Classic EQ (Original - Velius) is my favorite MMORPG, even by today's standards. Luclin and PoP, as they did in the past, killed it for me.. not the "outdated" mechanics and nostalgia.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

Interesting analogy here. True, you shouldn't give up hope for finding someone new that you love just as much, but that first spouse will be irreplacable from a memories point of view, or kids point of view, etc. You may find someone new, but no two people are the same. You will not love the same things about them.

Requiring that your new love be just like your old love will quickly result in you being alone. Trust me on that :P

Yes, this is very true.

However, the end of your statement is a little off compared to the current situation.

Sticking with this analogy, someone new who was very similiar to your ex-spouse comes along, and someone who knows him or her (Brad being the mutual friend, so to say) promises that they're very much like your previous significant other. Naturally, you'd be very interested.

Now I'll try to set up the next step. EverQuest was unique, so we'll say your ex-wife (for ease of typing) was also unique, say she was... an exhibitionast. And for whatever reason, you loved that about her. Your new love-interest is also an exhibitionast and your friend assures you she is, so she also shares that unique quality as your ex-wife, but as you get to know her, because of outside influences, she begins to shy away from it.

That's the situation we're in. Our new love-interest is being pressured into putting some clothes on. Or something. Made sense in my head.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

You people need to let EQ go. The MMORPGs in general have changed a great deal since then and there will never be a game like that again. People are no longer willing tolerate boats, long travel time and game mechancis that basically are designed to frustrate. Sure there are fans of this style of gaming but they're hardly enough hem to fill two servers.

Having said that VG is nothing like EQ. The death penalty is relatively painless and at its worst it is similar to EQ2's shard system upon release. There are porters for continental travel just like EQ2 (the day they force everyone to use the boats is the day this game die) and for the most part VG is extremely solo friendly provided you play the right class. In fact this game is more solo friendly than EQ or EQ2 ever was.

I seem to remember a popular MMO by the name of World of Warcraft having 8 million subscribers world-wide require waiting for boats to cross the sea. You were saying?

[colddog]

I seem to remember a popular MMO by the name of World of Warcraft having 8 million subscribers world-wide require waiting for boats to cross the sea. You were saying?

I think he meant player boats to travel accross continents.

[SolZer]

Yes, this is very true.

However, the end of your statement is a little off compared to the current situation.

Sticking with this analogy, someone new who was very similiar to your ex-spouse comes along, and someone who knows him or her (Brad being the mutual friend, so to say) promises that they're very much like your previous significant other. Naturally, you'd be very interested.

Now I'll try to set up the next step. EverQuest was unique, so we'll say your ex-wife (for ease of typing) was also unique, say she was... an exhibitionast. And for whatever reason, you loved that about her. Your new love-interest is also an exhibitionast and your friend assures you she is, so she also shares that unique quality as your ex-wife, but as you get to know her, because of outside influences, she begins to shy away from it.

That's the situation we're in. Our new love-interest is being pressured into putting some clothes on. Or something. Made sense in my head.

I'm following you, I am. I just think a lot of people here are expecting VG to be just like EQ. There are already a lot of similarities, but that's not enough for some. They want to CLONE their dead spouse... well a 20's clone if you follow me. ;)

[Kenak]

I'm following you, I am. I just think a lot of people here are expecting VG to be just like EQ. There are already a lot of similarities, but that's not enough for some. They want to CLONE their dead spouse... well a 20's clone if you follow me. ;)

That's not true -- we could do without her heroine addiction.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

I think he meant player boats to travel accross continents.

My mistake then. I'm not aware of how long it takes to cross an ocean ina player-made boat.

One of the biggest problems with EQ2 and WoW? No dead space.

Mobs are crammed into every nook and cranny to make all the space in the game useful. Too many people complained that it took too long to do anything and it ruined the exploring for everyone else.

There's a video online somewhere with Brad and his "partner in crime" in which Brad states "The great thing about Vanguard is that we design it so that you can go anywhere." as his character boards a player-made ship to go on some exploring.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

I'm following you, I am. I just think a lot of people here are expecting VG to be just like EQ. There are already a lot of similarities, but that's not enough for some. They want to CLONE their dead spouse... well a 20's clone if you follow me. ;)

Ah I see.

This is true I suppose. Yes, I'm disappointed that I won't be setting foot in Norrath or exploring Kael'Drakkal again but at the same time, I'm treating this new world as a wonderful opportunity for discovery.

Perhaps what we need is a new spin on old EQ-standards. I admit my first thought when I logged was "This is just EverQuest with better graphics!" I wasn't disappointed but at the same time I wasn't overly thrilled. My personal goal for the Vision is EverQuest set in a new world, with tweaks of course.

[Tirolan Lioncourt]

I apologize if I articulated my words poorly. Let me rephrase.

He said EQ1 was good because it was our first, but now it's outdated and poor. I am saying that I tried the Combine, and sure, it's not exactly the same (Ie. that feeling of being overwhelmed and thrown into this strange world), but the game mechanics and everything else was there. With each expansion that was unlocked, the game got better. Once Luclin was unlocked, the game went down. Once PoP was unlocked... bleh.

What that means is Classic EQ (Original - Velius) is my favorite MMORPG, even by today's standards. Luclin and PoP, as they did in the past, killed it for me.. not the "outdated" mechanics and nostalgia.

Ok way to put words in my mouth, where did I say in my post AT ALL, that EQ was outdated and poor? I said it was unique at the time and that's why it seemed to be so awesome, you had nothing to compare it to, the market is much more volatile now. You can't skate by by having one or two neat things and a buttload of sub-par things. I assume you only see what you want to see, which is what the majority of humans do.

And here's a question, I assume The Combine was the "original ruleset server" that came out over the past year....Did you play EQ1 When it came out, so it was just what you had played already correcT? So you get that same feeling of Ooo Ahhh because it brings you back tot hat time you had never played an MMORPG, and your first experiences? You're proving my point further.

You say EQ original was your favorite MMORPG, which is great, I'm sure many others agree, and others still, disagree. It's your opinion you're entitled to it. I know me personally and a lot of friends don't want EQ1 original, if we wanted that couldn't we play on "The Combine", couldn't you? I like to see the genre advance in new and unique ways, not rehash old playstyles. If that is what you want, I'm sure you can find a game that is out there that suits that playstyle, and if you can't find one, it must not be as popular of a playstyle as you portray.

[Tirolan Lioncourt]

Interesting analogy here. True, you shouldn't give up hope for finding someone new that you love just as much, but that first spouse will be irreplacable from a memories point of view, or kids point of view, etc. You may find someone new, but no two people are the same. You will not love the same things about them.

Requiring that your new love be just like your old love will quickly result in you being alone. Trust me on that :P

Exactly :)

[Ziegfried Trueblade]

I don't see any vision regarding Vanguard. That stuff died out a long time ago, VG looks nothing like an old school MMORPG with next-gen features (as was the vision in 2003-2004), it looks like just another MMO cept this time theres diplomacy.

Let EQ go? Sure but I'll also let the rest of these EZ fantasy MMOs go and play EVE online. I couldn't care less what other people think is hip as long as I have an alternative, there are still MUDs around that are more hardcore than any MMORPG that survive don't think us 'hardcore' gamers aren't out there anymore.

I'm not seeing this "potential" for VG people rant about. Vanguard's potential never existed, it was all the typical hype and they didn't have the know how to get it done. They couldn't figure out how to get the caravan system working, the water and ships portion seems almost ignored as is Kojan, the combat system failed, the character customization never got put in, there have been tons of bugs etc. The bugs can get squished but you all are dreaming if you think VG is gonna put in any of those fancy systems anytime soon.

I intend to play Vanguard someday in the distant future. I think its gonna survive but I really have my doubts they will follow through with many of their ideas for a long, long time.

[Braawn]

I don't see any vision regarding Vanguard. That stuff died out a long time ago, VG looks nothing like an old school MMORPG with next-gen features (as was the vision in 2003-2004), it looks like just another MMO cept this time theres diplomacy.

Let EQ go? Sure but I'll also let the rest of these EZ fantasy MMOs go and play EVE online. I couldn't care less what other people think is hip as long as I have an alternative, there are still MUDs around that are more hardcore than any MMORPG that survive don't think us 'hardcore' gamers aren't out there anymore.

I'm not seeing this "potential" for VG people rant about. Vanguard's potential never existed, it was all the typical hype and they didn't have the know how to get it done. They couldn't figure out how to get the caravan system working, the water and ships portion seems almost ignored as is Kojan, the combat system failed, the character customization never got put in, there have been tons of bugs etc. The bugs can get squished but you all are dreaming if you think VG is gonna put in any of those fancy systems anytime soon.

I intend to play Vanguard someday in the distant future. I think its gonna survive but I really have my doubts they will follow through with many of their ideas for a long, long time.

so depressing but, so true...

[Shandor]

When are you people going to learn, EQ was awesome(for you and others) because it was your first, there was only one other competitor out there at release, Ultima Online...and later four if I am correct, adding Asheron's Call and DAoC...

It wasn't a success cuz it was uber hard, had raids or any of the other things, it was unique at the time because there was nothing like it... You will not ever get that same feeling again. Guaranteed.

Well .. no ? Played Meridian 59 and UO bevore EQ1 for years. Later i played DaoC. Those 4 are all great Games. So does that mean i got the First Kiss effect like 4 Times ? So why i could have it for the fifth time ? :)

I dont need a Kiss, i need Downtime, Challenge, grouping and Huge Raids.

Shandor

[JesperX]

I'm sick of hearing people obsessed with EQ1 trying to envision VG as their dream game like it's their baby or something. I'm not saying VG should be like any other game, I'm just saying that EQ1 is EQ1- VG is not. Let VG do it's own thing.

If you want to grind your face into tedium, go play FFXI or something. Sigil is going to make the game they want to make and no matter how close the VG vision is to your dream game, you won't be able to turn it into that.


Sigil left Microsoft, went to SOE and had to launch before they were done. The game is still catching up to a finished product. Sigil had to make changes to the plan in order to make the game fun, the gaming population demanded more quests, more EQ2 and WoW style play progression. And worst of all, the game was far too much for most PC's to handle. So people who would otherwise be playing couldn't.


I believe Sigil got dropped from MS because MS wasn't willing to put out the $$ to finish it. Sounds like Sigil didn't have much of a choice but to head to SOE. The game needs a ton of polish and finishing, agreed. I just hope they don't listen to the minority of the rabid hardcore crowd. I'm not saying make the game like WoW, cause ****- I wouldn't play it if they did, but for ****'s sake who wants to grind and camp and waste their time doing all of the things that made EQ a pain the ass.

[Kimi]

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.
The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market

I am not so sure about the "many players". Nor do I think that EQ went downhill. What EQ DID do was adapt to changing markets and changing tastes and expectations.

The fact that some of the highly vocal dinosaurs could NOT adapt is not EQ's fault.

IMO EQ is a much better game now than it was back in your so-called "glory days".

And I always love it when I see this phrase popped out as an example: made items sell for lower then worth to compete

"Lower than worth" according to who?:?

What it is worth is what it will sell for. What you are for is limiting competition and raising prices by limiting how many people can sell things, not by any inherent "worth" of the items themselves. That would be like the government telling McDonalds and WalMart that they can only sell so many items or have so many stores. Or like in VG's case, telling them they can only advertise up to 10 items at once.

[Paqua]

I dont know where some of you have been but like my friend Zigfried Ive been reading and posting on the vanguard forums a long time.
The "vision" as some of you put it is so far gone its not even funny.

I will paraphrase since i dont have the exact quote. Brad said, in a post on the general Vanguard forums, that ..." if you like the challenge level of original Everquest to Velious then you will probably like Vanguard. If you didnt this is probably not the game for you."

This game was promoted as HARD...not hard core he always said it was for "core" gamers. Its Not HARD and its far to easy now.
Now the newer MMOers out there see waiting for boats, grinding, long drawn out quests requiring groups and sometimes entire guilds, camping, training, and a myriad of other things EQ as tedious and boring.
I dont. I played EQ from beta till 2005, with breaks to try DAOC EQ2 Lineage2 and Shadowbane. I always returned to EQ.

I am not a proponent of fun fun fun non stop with no challenge or consequnece. Yes spending time online can be a challenge. Putting in the faction work can be a challenge. But in the end the dedication pays off and allows you and those like you access to areas where others with less dedication cant or wont go.
Is this eliteist? No. Your monthly subscription doesnt guarantee you access to all content. It just allows you access to the game itself. Depending on your time commitment your skill and your desire to see everything the rest is up to you.
By dumbing down the game and trying to make all gear, all areas etc accessible to even the lowest dedicated player the entire game becomes boring.

In EQ i'd see raid equipped people with awesome weapons etc.It made want to go there myself and wrest that shiney sword from a steaming pile of monsters' hand.
Nowadays everyone has that sword. Its no longer special. People feel hurt and it lowers their self esteem if they cant have EVERYTHING handed to them.

Im sorry but if you can only put in 1-2 hours every other day your time in game will probably be less than meaningful. Its like any other hobby. Theres gonna be those that just dabble and those that jump in with both feet. Who is going to experience more ? Why should MMOs be any different?

Yes I have a life. Im married have a son in college have a full time job. So no I dont live in my moms' basement. This is my hobby tho and im very enthusiastic about it.

No I dont want to go back to EQ. Its also changed too much for my liking and just like when you leave home those famous words comeback to haunt you. "you can never go home again" its never the same.

What id like to see is Vanguard as advertised. Vanguard that got us all fired up. The majority on these boards now seem to want it easy,fast and fun fun fun. Used to be on the original VG boards the old school players ruled not anymore it seems.
Vanguard is no longer carrying the banner of the old school player. Its just sad.

[rhagz]

What a dumb post. Half the stuff you bulleted as 'ruining' EQ prolonged it for many of us. Spires and PoK books made traversing the huge world bearable. What, you expect them to triple the size of the world without making travel faster? welcome to Vanguard, where you LFG for 2 hours, then wait 2 more for everyone to get to you!

Bazaar was great. It was just the EC tunnel without the unbearable spam.

Expansions making better items? Hello... thats what expansions do. They expand the world, not just out but up. Noone wants to be level 50 with zero AA for 7 years, you need to gain more levels and get more loot. Like it or not, those are the driving forces in these kinds of games.

Dependance on spells? No. *You* depended on them, not everyone. Stop giving into the temptation to buff your twinks before you go play. Better yet, don't make a spell like KEI vital in the first place by having med times of half an hour without, and a "tolerable" 10-15 minutes with.

Most of your 'points' are just crap, sorry.

[JesperX]

No I dont want to go back to EQ. Its also changed too much for my liking and just like when you leave home those famous words comeback to haunt you. "you can never go home again" its never the same.

What id like to see is Vanguard as advertised. Vanguard that got us all fired up. The majority on these boards now seem to want it easy,fast and fun fun fun. Used to be on the original VG boards the old school players ruled not anymore it seems.
Vanguard is no longer carrying the banner of the old school player. Its just sad.

There's easy, fast fun (ala WoW); There's challenging, engaging fun; And then there's tedious and monotonous (ala EQ1).

If you like tedious and monotonous, hey fine that's your thing, but VG always seemed to be aiming for challenging and engaging fun as opposed to tedium. Did they hit it? **** no. Has any MMO really hit that? not completely, but you think most would want the genre to move that direction as opposed to the repetitive nature of past games.

[Zarnak]

VG won't come into its own as long as it's mired in "hardcore vs casual." I don't even think that's where it's focus should be. I remember looking at this game a year ago and the thing that attracted me to it was the diplomacy. To me diplomacy = a chance to impact my surroundings. Other games allow you to gain status and turn it in...or get uber raid gear. This one also allows you to convince your orc/goblin clan to attack its rival. Imagine in the future if this action on your part were to cause an "NPC raid" to form against an NPC city? Imagine other people scrambling to get out of the way of this....or IN the way of it....

This is what I hope VG will eventually offer. This is what will set it apart from other games in a way that can't be matched. In the end, I don't want to play WOW. I don't want to play eq either. I want a new experience that allows me to influence politics in game. Sigil should be pushing this as the vision.

[JesperX]

In the end, I don't want to play WOW. I don't want to play eq either. I want a new experience that allows me to influence politics in game. Sigil should be pushing this as the vision.

Challenging, engaging fun.

I agree. Not just in regards to diplomacy, but in creating a game based around ideas that push the envelope while straying from tedium.

[Qandow]

I will try and explain the reason for the Vision™ and why people were so excited about it.

For those of us who were in Everquest since the early days remember the disturbing trend the game took around Luclin. Most players I talked to seem to feel the game was fairly balanced around the Velious era, Luclin and especially Planes of Power took the game in a totally new direction. Many players who loved the game play mechanics and dynamics of the EQ were upset by this new direction.

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation
*Lack of need for player cities (ghost towns)
*Expansions launched too fast
*Each expansion created better items that were easier to get, older items devalued quickly
*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)
*The sudden dependence upon spells like KEI and Temperance
*Secondary market helped ruin economies (SOE did nothing)
*General rapid inflation caused mostly be expansions + secondary market




My take on those issues:

1, Instant transportation. - The original EQ had the teleportation thing down pat. Wizard spires, druid rings were landmarks and social hubs. They weren't over abundant and still required some travel to take place. They were useful in getting you to a general area. Perfect. They did not trivialize travel at all, just cut a lot of the tedium out. PoP's implimentation of the portal stones just totally trivialized travel and was a bad move. Vanguard, on the other hand, did a total 180, built an even bigger world and put no teleportation at all.
Big vote for original EQ in terms of travel. Why other games haven't mimiced this system is a mystery.

2. Lack of need for player cities. - By this I assume you mean cities themselves since player built cities did not exist in EQ. This is a problem that plagues every game. Not sure what the answer is. Expansions need to breathe new life into existing cities rather than just moving everyone onto a new hotspot.
New expansion cities should be rare and not act as a replacement for the originals. Erudin was a perfect example of the ghosttown phenomena since it became a ghosttown long before the others did. So much work went into that city and yet there was so little reason to go there.

3. Expansions launched to fast. Totally agree.

4. Each expansion created better items that were easier to get. - This is going to happen no matter what. Developers use this as a lure to increase expansion sales. It's never going to change. What I wish they would do, at least, is not compound the problem by putting insane drop rates of very nice items for the first 2 or 3 weeks of an expansion in a further bid to pump up hype. EQ seemed to do that in every expansion they launched.

5. Bazaar. - Totally disagree here. The bazaar finally gave an economy to a game that never had one previously. An economy, that everyone could participate in rather than just those with a lot of time on their hands. The bazaar didn't devalue items, it adjusted those items to reflect what they were truly worth.

6. The sudden dependence on KEI,etc. - A bit over the top. These buffs were overpowered and mobs were adjusted to account for them which made them a near necessity. Not a good implimentation in my opinion.

7. Secondary market - a reality in games today unfortunately. Wish it were not. I think companies could do a better job of fighting it but at some point they are faced with diminishing returns.

8. General rapid inflation. - There is going to be inflation no matter what you do. In fact, I feel, there has to be inflation to make for a better gaming experience overall. Everyone has to at least "feel" like they are upwardly mobile. Very often, this may, in the long run, be perception only but it sure feels much better. A player wants to feel like they have accomplished something - that they are better off then the day before. Although, this may, in truth be a misconception, they are at least no worse off. Everyone in these games is hoping to play the role of a hero. No one is going to play these games to be a serf. It is for that very reason that real life economic principles do not apply to MMORPG's. No one is going to stick around to play the role of a working class stiff in a game played for entertainment. Everyone wants to be the lord and lady of their castle. Of course, prices will rise along with the inflation and eat up a lot of the perceived wealth. However, it will not eat up all of it and for certain items, such as property, or fancy mounts, for example, players will at least feel that they are gaining ground in pursuit of these luxuries. Without inflation, many are never going to be able to afford some of the nicer toys. It's all about having fun rather than making an economic simulation.

[Istaira]

I think Vanguard is a long haul game, and I really hope they do not put everything in right away. As it would leave nothing to do later on.

I also played EQ, it as its good points and it had really bad ones. I did try the progression servers, and if anything it made me realise the day I closed the door on eq one was the right thing to do.

I personally like Vanguard, I find somethings tedious, and some things really well done. They seem to be working on a lot of issues at an alarming rate. Even if some people feel they are not.

I feel sorry for the coders who have thier work ripped apart each time a new patch comes along, and I feel sorry for the devs who give thier time, trying to work out the ins and outs of what people really want.

I would like to see more notes on performance, but I also understand again this is time comsuming on top of all the other things they do.

I do however remember one thing about eq one. I absolutly hated it on day one and untill around the first 6 months. I thought it was to to huge to do anything in. I had lost my corpse and couldnt find it anywhere in the city and eveutally I just rerolled a new one. Later on I found out that the corpses decayed at an alarming rate and you only had so many hours/minutes in lower levels to find it and get your stuff. I hate the book stuck in my view, I wanted to see what was coming my way or even around me.

I hated the death penatly, as it was hard to get through levels 30 upwards. You either got over charged for a rezz or couldnt find anyone willing to travel to your location to do one, so a lot of the time it was suck it up.

I did love ocean of tears and timerous and spent a lot of my time leveling in these zones. I love the oassis of marr and in later expansions, I loved the dungeons they put in you go get a team and just do them. I loved the boat trips and the FV boat, I used to travel just on them to see the views.

I also had a view accidents along the way, back in the day when you could get aggro or even pull aggro to the boats, such as gornit or the seafurys.

I have fond memories from all the games I ever played and some not so fond.
Some games till this very day I still play, why should the fun end.

I have aged over the years, so have my likes and dislikes, the world moves on and so does games. I still dislike harsh death penatlies, and tedoius grind. I do not think either make a game. Quests are the what makes the game for me, and the abilty to travel and explore. Some of the views in the Northern Boarder of the game are just stuning. I traveled to the top (the very top!) of New Taragan the other day and had to wait till the flipping fog lifted to see anything! But again looking down on the world and areas around it was just stuning.

There is a ton of beauty in the game, if you can put aside what you think it should be like, what other games looked like and look at it in it's own right. I think you will see there is a ton of new things you never noticed because you was to busy looking behind you.

I know it's not a perfect game, there are tons of problems still, but there is also tons of great stuff and interesting stuff.

I tend to look forward and not so much behind. I remember what was and take with my that knowledge, but I seek out new things (I sound like the enterprise lol)

[ikaoma420]

Well .. no ? Played Meridian 59 and UO bevore EQ1 for years. Later i played DaoC. Those 4 are all great Games. So does that mean i got the First Kiss effect like 4 Times ? So why i could have it for the fifth time ? :)

I dont need a Kiss, i need Downtime, Challenge, grouping and Huge Raids.

Shandor

Well for me I can say both EQ and DAOC were like a first kiss for me EQ with PVE and DAOC with its RVR.

[ikaoma420]

What a dumb post. Half the stuff you bulleted as 'ruining' EQ prolonged it for many of us. Spires and PoK books made traversing the huge world bearable. What, you expect them to triple the size of the world without making travel faster? welcome to Vanguard, where you LFG for 2 hours, then wait 2 more for everyone to get to you!

Bazaar was great. It was just the EC tunnel without the unbearable spam.

Expansions making better items? Hello... thats what expansions do. They expand the world, not just out but up. Noone wants to be level 50 with zero AA for 7 years, you need to gain more levels and get more loot. Like it or not, those are the driving forces in these kinds of games.

Dependance on spells? No. *You* depended on them, not everyone. Stop giving into the temptation to buff your twinks before you go play. Better yet, don't make a spell like KEI vital in the first place by having med times of half an hour without, and a "tolerable" 10-15 minutes with.

Most of your 'points' are just crap, sorry.

QFT

[Aginor]

Spires and PoK books made traversing the huge world bearable. What, you expect them to triple the size of the world without making travel faster? welcome to Vanguard, where you LFG for 2 hours, then wait 2 more for everyone to get to you!


You've valid points, but i won't agree 100% on this one.

Pre-PoK travelling and exploration is one of the great features i remember about EQ1 :)


I recall my first trip from freeport to qeynos :)

Or when Kunark came out, and i heard about Soloist's Icy Wand.
The wand was a very rare drop from Kurn's Tower in the FoB.

I went all the way from Qeynos, past Dreadlands and other higher lvl zones (I was a 20ish rogue at that time). I managed to sneak through two city zones (Cabilis, veeery KoS), and enter the Field of Bones.

But, when i closed in on the Kurn's tower zone, i accidently aggroed some panda-like mobs (heh, name?), pretty many of them actually, but i ran and i barerly made it to Kurn's, glad to be alive since i'm bound ALL they way back in Qeynos. Noone could bind me in Kunark, and everything was KoS.

First thing i see upon entering Kurn's Tower, is a shout: CHOOO CHOOOO, Rangers and children first, inc -TRAIN-!!

.... Loading... Please Wait.. :cry:

My longest CR ever (even longer then PoFear :P), but man it was fun, and i still remember it well :)

[Augustus4]

The problems with EQ post luclin:

*Instant transportation

*Bazaar (item search made items sell for lower then worth to compete)


In fact it has got so bad, that the MOBS you kill appropriate to your level will not drop gear you can effectively use. You MUST purchase raid level gear which instantly devalues on merchants to be effective. And SOE has made MOBS tougher to keep them challenging against these ubber buffed and geared ebayed characters. An honest player has NO chance!



I disagree , I found running around much more fun then having instant warps to every god forbidden place.

Also it was much funner to run to the Tunnel outside of freeport and trade some shady half elf and then inspect the contents of 2-4 bags for goodies then it ever was to run around that damned bazaar, I dont hate the broker system but I still like to see people actually use the auction channel.

[Venzule]

Microsoft LEFT Sigil.

[Faite]

A lot of people need to get a secondary hobby. Some of you guys take this way way too seriously, talk of hurting your self esteem not to have to work harder for a fancy sword? C'mon.

I once had a friend, the highest thief in Dragonrealms (I think he still is) and he told me "You know why I do this? (this=hours and hours and hours in the game) He said "I want to be the best at 'something' in my life'.

The sad part this is a Berkeley CS graduate. He HAS accomplished something but his esteem is so low in real life he believes the game is that big 'accomplishment' he is missing.

That is the difference...some of you are using this game as your 'accomplishment' factor (or seem to be by your posts) rather than using it as your fun and entertainment. I don't want the game easy at all, I just am sick of hearing about this vision . Vision this, vision that.

vi·sion /ˈvɪʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vizh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination (def. 1).
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
6. something seen; an object of sight.
7. a scene, person, etc., of extraordinary beauty: The sky was a vision of red and pink.
8. computer vision.
–verb (used with object) 9. to envision: She tried to vision herself in a past century.

[psychade]

A lot of people need to get a secondary hobby. Some of you guys take this way way too seriously, talk of hurting your self esteem not to have to work harder for a fancy sword? C'mon.

I once had a friend, the highest thief in Dragonrealms (I think he still is) and he told me "You know why I do this? (this=hours and hours and hours in the game) He said "I want to be the best at 'something' in my life'.

The sad part this is a Berkeley CS graduate. He HAS accomplished something but his esteem is so low in real life he believes the game is that big 'accomplishment' he is missing.

That is the difference...some of you are using this game as your 'accomplishment' factor (or seem to be by your posts) rather than using it as your fun and entertainment. I don't want the game easy at all, I just am sick of hearing about this vision . Vision this, vision that.

vi·sion /ˈvɪʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vizh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination (def. 1).
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
6. something seen; an object of sight.
7. a scene, person, etc., of extraordinary beauty: The sky was a vision of red and pink.
8. computer vision.
–verb (used with object) 9. to envision: She tried to vision herself in a past century.


I'm sorry that your friend is a toolbox.

[creppingdeath]

Brad still has a Vision, only thing is it involves a hot shower a bar of shop and about 15 Vanboi's

[Faite]

I'm sorry that your friend is a toolbox.

lol yea.....and Im sorry you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. See I can do that too. :D

edited to add: My post was in response to someone saying they get self esteem out of obtaining a new sword in game. I'm sorry I find this unhealthy. If it makes me a tool so be it. It just does not seem good for someone to feel like that? Or am I wrong. Hey I'm open to some psychology here

[psychade]

lol yea.....and Im sorry you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. See I can do that too. :D

edited to add: My post was in response to someone saying they get self esteem out of obtaining a new sword in game. I'm sorry I find this unhealthy. If it makes me a tool so be it. It just does not seem good for someone to feel like that? Or am I wrong. Hey I'm open to some psychology here

He also would be a tool. Everyone knows you don't get self esteem from awesome loot, you just get a bigger e-penis.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

He also would be a tool. Everyone knows you don't get self esteem from awesome loot, you just get a bigger e-penis.

:D