Why so many negative posts? I have an idea

[Aroua999]

Most people have noticed the large amount of shear vitrol running around these boards. From mild to extreme, there are a lot of unhappy people, and it has been noted by some, it seems like more unhappy people than is usual for an MMO forum even. The extreme seems to go the other way as well, and I've come up with a little theory on why this is so.

People were stuck playing the same old thing for at LEAST the last 2 years (either WoW or EQ2), and in some cases, even older games (EQ, UO, DaoC and whatnot).

No matter how much you love (or hate) your old MMO, it's going to get boring after so many years, and really there were just those 2 choices for any modern MMO. We have been itching and aching for something new for ages. Many of us watched this game for months (some even years) before it came out, with great anticipation. The announcements of many new and innovative things had us practically foaming at the mouth, ready for anything BUT our old MMO.

We buy it, install it, and it...is kind of like our old MMO. Only worse. Oh, it has a beautiful world, and a few new things (though Diplomacy is the only truly new thing anyone I know can come up with). But it is missing all those little things that gave our old MMO life, even from the beginning. I've heard some people on this board call it a "soul". For a variety of reasons, people come to realize this game is just a graphically updated version of every other MMO out there. With less content, and most of the missing content isn't even going to be added anytime soon. It's just...empty. It does absolutely nothing better than any other MMO, except having a larger, and some think, prettier world. Not mobs or character models, just the world. Better architecture, grass and trees just isn't enough.

So people are dissapointed. And some people tell them to just leave if they are unhappy. But there is this huge problem, where do they go? Their old MMO is still old, they have done everything there, seen it all, it's boring now. There really isn't another new game to go to for another 6 months or more. All their hopes were kind of riding on VG. So here they are, still on the boards, posting complaints, trying to get the game devs to magically improve the game, make it more fun and more full of the promised content. They know it's unlikely to happen deep down in their hearts, but what else can they do? They are here hanging on to a shred op hope, while still being completely angry that this game let them down so badly.

And the fans? Some are actually enjoying it, but most of them probably aren't here posting in the angry threads, they are in the game playing or posting in posative threads. I personally think, and I could be wrong obviously, that a lot of them are secretly dissapointed as well, and are trying to convince themselves as much as others that the game is great and will get better. Some just like to argue, lol. Of course, this parts gonna get me flamed, but I don't care. I state it because I sincerely believe it to be true. I almost didn't put this part in, because I don't want to start a flame war, but I really think it needed to be said. ~ducks~

The best thing we can do is try and remember we are all in the same boat. We all want VG to succeed, to be a place to have fun! Some people just really need to vent right now, and some need to keep a stiff upper lip, so naturally there will be diasagreements. Just try not to take them too personally, or turn them into insult fests. Remember the guy iwth the opposite opinion to yours is really probably jsut as unhappy as you are.

I admit this could be totally way off base, but that is just how I see it.

Try and play nice all. We'll be getting along better in a month or so when people have finally moved

[taz]

Wow... I mean that's it.

There is nothing else (yet) and yes I spent 8 months between EQ2 and vanguard without an MMO to play at all. And yes I do have a life, I dont get to play very often - but I really did miss it. I tried to restart in EQ2 and couldnt bring myself to do it, I had seen everything, raided everything and maxed out several toons.

So yeah I had all my hopes pinned on VG to give me my MMO fix and be something "new". As in at least having the first month or two being fascinated with the game, the graphics, the learning my classes, the world etc etc... instead after the first 3 hours I was like umm other than it being "different" it feels kind of the same. Hmmm.....

But yeah - a big let down to be sure... and it is very irritating because it was not what was promised and I mean promised as in what their marketing material on their official site said, what their marketing material on the box said and what they in the forums said. There is no denying that when the major things that were marketed simply do not exist in the released game that is exactly like buying a CD that says it has 12 songs on it (including the two you bought the cd for) and finding that there are only 8 songs on the CD and none of those songs are the ones you bought the CD for.

Yes I still play and pay, and simply have allot of time invested in the game already - so I am hoping that they get their act together and make the game right. As far as class balance and stuff like that - I really dont care, I just want to see the game deliver the features that already should have been included. And we had to release early because of ... is not an excuse - try using that one on your boss...Enjoy unemployment.

So folks to put it simply, I am not really angry - I am just really hopefull that vanguard works out because quite simply the thought of running around with hundreds of thousands of "ranger types" named "L3g01az" or other variations in a game by of all people "turbine" (thanks again guys for DDO...awesome job there /sarcasm) would drive me to madness. 8)..

So I am here, begging sigil to not make me go play LOTR and to get vanguard straightened out 8). (note: not demanding, I am begging because if I have to see a toon named F40d0 I am going to go freaking nuts).

<grin>

[Mr_bloodworth]

honestly? Lack of accountability. There are not official forums, so nothing gets heard, and its easy for the developers to "I didn't see that request".

current moderation rules on this site only perpetuate the problem. Merging threads into 50 page threads...pifft, like the developers are going to read that... IF they have time after posting on FOH.

Synopsis of what im saying : yes allot of things were not delivered, not working ETC.. but splitting up the community only exacerbates the situation.

Communication has been cut off and that = Frustration.

[Aroua999]

Lol, Fix, that was a good word to use.

When my hubby introduces me to EQ, I became an insta-addict. I have been hooked o MMO's ever since. However, I'm finding myself burned out now. I don't reallywant ot play anyting ~shrugs~

I'm sure that a nice break playing in the forums for my social MMO needs and maybe just reading and retaking up some old hobbies (like sewing SCA clothing) or something will get me past it all :-)

Good luck to you Taz. I too am still hoping VG somehow develops a bit of magic to pull me back into the game. Until then, cheers!

And GO Vg team, I know you can do it!

[Mr_bloodworth]

Lol, Fix, that was a good word to use.

When my hubby introduces me to EQ, I became an insta-addict. I have been hooked o MMO's ever since. However, I'm finding myself burned out now. I don't reallywant ot play anyting ~shrugs~

I'm sure that a nice break playing in the forums for my social MMO needs and maybe just reading and retaking up some old hobbies (like sewing SCA clothing) or something will get me past it all :-)

Good luck to you Taz. I too am still hoping VG somehow develops a bit of magic to pull me back into the game. Until then, cheers!

And GO Vg team, I know you can do it!

Perhaps its the type of game, not all are EQ clones. Also, don't go chasing the experience your first mmo gave you, you wont find it.

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

Perhaps its the type of game, not all are EQ clones. Also, don't go chasing the experience your first mmo gave you, you wont find it.

I disagree. VG is giving me that experience. Like I've said before, my nostalgia was gone the second I heard the install music.

[Racmoor]

Perhaps its the type of game, not all are EQ clones. Also, don't go chasing the experience your first mmo gave you, you wont find it.

So true.

[Aroua999]

Perhaps its the type of game, not all are EQ clones. Also, don't go chasing the experience your first mmo gave you, you wont find it.
yeah..your posts confuse me, it's like reading a response to someone else post.

I don't want the old EQ feel. I realized long ago (if you read my post history) that I don't even WANT the old EQ, yick. I'm too old for that now.

I enjoyed many games very much after EQ, including DaoC, shadowbane, Horizons (briefly), EQ2, SWG, WoW and a few others. Some for a long time even. EQ was just the one that got me hooked, I never said I wanted another EQ (God Forbid).
I actually wanted the opposite, if you READ my post, something new, different, and innovative, not rehashed garbage I've seen in 10 other games.

So, not sure what part of my post you are replying to, since it doesn't seem to fit into anything I said...but ok. Good point all on it's own though!

[Mr_bloodworth]

yeah..your posts confuse me, it's like reading a response to someone else post.

I don't want the old EQ feel. I realized long ago (if you read my post history) that I don't even WANT the old EQ, yick. I'm too old for that now.

I enjoyed many games very much after EQ, including DaoC, shadowbane, Horizons (briefly), EQ2, SWG, WoW and a few others. Some for a long time even. EQ was just the one that got me hooked, I never said I wanted another EQ (God Forbid).
I actually wanted the opposite, if you READ my post, something new, different, and innovative, not rehashed garbage I've seen in 10 other games.

So, not sure what part of my post you are replying to, since it doesn't seem to fit into anything I said...but ok. Good point all on it's own though!

"When my hubby introduces me to EQ, I became an insta-addict. I have been hooked o MMO's ever since. However, I'm finding myself burned out now. I don't reallywant ot play anyting ~shrugs~"

That part. I did read your post.

My other post was a response to your OP, Or more of an addition.

Sidenote: About the only thing that was opposite and didn't follow the EQ/Diku mold was SWG.

[Willowynn]

I totally agree with the OP.

I love MMOs... I've been craving a good one to fill the spot for well over a year... and I agree... there are plenty out there... but if I wanted to play those I would be.

Right now I play VG because its more desireable than anything else out there atm.... am I completely satisfied with it? no.... is it the best MMO I've played? no... but like the OP said... I'm hanging in there... I do think the game has potential and I do think it will become the best MMO I've ever played... or at least one hopes. ;)

And yes.. it is frustrating to feel like youre paying for an extended beta.....

[Treesong]

Is the install music the same as the piece you hear at char creation?

[Ralvark@Woefeather]

Is the install music the same as the piece you hear at char creation?

I don't remember.

I also like the character select music, so either way, it's a plus for me.

[taz]

I don't want the old EQ feel. I realized long ago (if you read my post history) that I don't even WANT the old EQ, yick. I'm too old for that now.


No I'm not looking for my "first mmo" either, its not that at all. But I can say that I was fascinated with exploring and enjoying every "new" mmo that I started. I loved UO (my first), moved on SWG (I enjoyed that as well for a good year or 2) and then moved on the EQ2 (awesome), WOW (enjoyed it for another year or so), and then after taking a break from them I went to VG and well... ummm I cant seem to get that "new game" feel from it that I got from any other MMO that I played.

That first mmo experience, no - but I would of expected that "new" mmo feeling rather than that "umm ok I am going to level I guess" feeling that I got from vanguard. And admittedly to each their own, but I suspect the "letdown factor (incomplete)" had allot to do with it not being new and fun.

If the install music turns people on, great..... as far as the rest of the game music I just cant get into it when it turns on for like 10 seconds and then goes away at seemingly random moments.. Though it does sound really good - the "music" install or not adds to a game, it doesnt make the game because eventually folks wont be able to hear their Vent or TS during a raid (btw there are raids in vg, you and a few other groups agree to cooperate on a bugged quest like the infineum cloak b4 it got fixed rofl) and like everyone else who has heard the same music for years they will turn it off 8)

Again for the hardcore fan's I am really glad that you think vanguard is the bomb and that its the best, most complete and feature rich MMO experience you ever have had - I am very jealouos of you-I'd love to feel that way, and could you pass the the Sigil K001-Aid(tm) please?

Anyways I'm staying on because I really really want to get that uber-useless veteran reward that I am sure all us suckers will get eventually 8) (just kidding btw - I'm staying on cause there is nothing else 8))

[Aroua999]

[QUOTE=Aroua999;214302]
I don't want the old EQ feel. I realized long ago (if you read my post history) that I don't even WANT the old EQ, yick. I'm too old for that now.
[/QOUTE]

No I'm not looking for my "first mmo" either, its not that at all. But I can say that I was fascinated with exploring and enjoying every "new" mmo that I started. I loved UO (my first), moved on SWG (I enjoyed that as well for a good year or 2) and then moved on the EQ2 (awesome), WOW (enjoyed it for another year or so), and then after taking a break from them I went to VG and well... ummm I cant seem to get that "new game" feel from it that I got from any other MMO that I played.


Agreed and very well put :-)

About the music, I got a little of this from VG. I think I used the Chopping down a tree as a good example, or first seeing Khal as we came in from the East. It was so huge and just awesome looking. There are a few things that gave me that "ooh, ahh" feel all the other MMO's gave me (Even Horizons, rofl), as if this was a NEW adventure, but, it died quickly for me personally and turned into just doing things I'd already done, without all the fluff even, so not even as fun :-( Yeah, it's the new cool stuff that rehooks me, not the old stuff, thoughsome nostalgia can be nice.

Still, I do HOPE it get's better. I'm looking forward to the true housing features, working boats and flying mounts, different feeling combat and cool new mobs. Like I said, go Sigil, you can do it!

[taz]

I am bumping this slightly because I find it amusing that a thread that is relatively sincere, isnt obviously flamebaiting anyone, and appears to be a reasonable discussion has absolutely no interest. While if you want to have a 20 page thread then all you have to say is "those bastards at sigil", or "I think VG R0x3rs" and you'll have about 30 pages in five seconds.

For a minute there I thought I was on global ignore - because everytime I posted something reasonable, I hardly got a response if at all while if as in the past I posted something inflamatory then omg I'd have like 10 pages of fanbois flaming me, 10 pages of people flaming them and a enough :volcano: to at least fill 5 more pages.

ROFL.....

[creppingdeath]

I am bumping this slightly because I find it amusing that a thread that is relatively sincere, isnt obviously flamebaiting anyone, and appears to be a reasonable discussion has absolutely no interest. While if you want to have a 20 page thread then all you have to say is "those bastards at sigil", or "I think VG R0x3rs" and you'll have about 30 pages in five seconds.

For a minute there I thought I was on global ignore - because everytime I posted something reasonable, I hardly got a response if at all while if as in the past I posted something inflamatory then omg I'd have like 10 pages of fanbois flaming me, 10 pages of people flaming them and a enough :volcano: to at least fill 5 more pages.

ROFL.....


You rang.


"Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" -John Lydon 14 January 1978

[Aroua999]

I am bumping this slightly because I find it amusing that a thread that is relatively sincere, isnt obviously flamebaiting anyone, and appears to be a reasonable discussion has absolutely no interest. While if you want to have a 20 page thread then all you have to say is "those bastards at sigil", or "I think VG R0x3rs" and you'll have about 30 pages in five seconds.

For a minute there I thought I was on global ignore - because everytime I posted something reasonable, I hardly got a response if at all while if as in the past I posted something inflamatory then omg I'd have like 10 pages of fanbois flaming me, 10 pages of people flaming them and a enough :volcano: to at least fill 5 more pages.

ROFL.....

Haha, I've noticed that too. Most of my posts get ignored, or maybe only one response saying good post or something. But when I'm in a foul mood and say something stupid, yep, then people are all over it, lol.

But thanks for the compliment about my post :D

[displeasingreality]

Haha, I've noticed that too. Most of my posts get ignored, or maybe only one response saying good post or something. But when I'm in a foul mood and say something stupid, yep, then people are all over it, lol.

But thanks for the compliment about my post :D

I read all your posts aroua, they are well thought out and make good points.

I only generally respond negatively if someone is acting like an emu with his head in the sand and is completely blinkered towards the games issues.

[Aroua999]

I read all your posts aroua, they are well thought out and make good points.

I only generally respond negatively if someone is acting like an emu with his head in the sand and is completely blinkered towards the games issues.
Well, you have replied to a few of my posts with a "good point" and I appriciate that :)

[Shandor]

Most people have noticed the large amount of shear vitrol running around these boards. From mild to extreme, there are a lot of unhappy people, and it has been noted by some, it seems like more unhappy people than is usual for an MMO forum even. The extreme seems to go the other way as well, and I've come up with a little theory on why this is so.

People were stuck playing the same old thing for at LEAST the last 2 years (either WoW or EQ2), and in some cases, even older games (EQ, UO, DaoC and whatnot).

No matter how much you love (or hate) your old MMO, it's going to get boring after so many years, and really there were just those 2 choices for any modern MMO. We have been itching and aching for something new for ages. Many of us watched this game for months (some even years) before it came out, with great anticipation. The announcements of many new and innovative things had us practically foaming at the mouth, ready for anything BUT our old MMO.

We buy it, install it, and it...is kind of like our old MMO. Only worse. Oh, it has a beautiful world, and a few new things (though Diplomacy is the only truly new thing anyone I know can come up with). But it is missing all those little things that gave our old MMO life, even from the beginning. I've heard some people on this board call it a "soul". For a variety of reasons, people come to realize this game is just a graphically updated version of every other MMO out there. With less content, and most of the missing content isn't even going to be added anytime soon. It's just...empty. It does absolutely nothing better than any other MMO, except having a larger, and some think, prettier world. Not mobs or character models, just the world. Better architecture, grass and trees just isn't enough.

So people are dissapointed. And some people tell them to just leave if they are unhappy. But there is this huge problem, where do they go? Their old MMO is still old, they have done everything there, seen it all, it's boring now. There really isn't another new game to go to for another 6 months or more. All their hopes were kind of riding on VG. So here they are, still on the boards, posting complaints, trying to get the game devs to magically improve the game, make it more fun and more full of the promised content. They know it's unlikely to happen deep down in their hearts, but what else can they do? They are here hanging on to a shred op hope, while still being completely angry that this game let them down so badly.

And the fans? Some are actually enjoying it, but most of them probably aren't here posting in the angry threads, they are in the game playing or posting in posative threads. I personally think, and I could be wrong obviously, that a lot of them are secretly dissapointed as well, and are trying to convince themselves as much as others that the game is great and will get better. Some just like to argue, lol. Of course, this parts gonna get me flamed, but I don't care. I state it because I sincerely believe it to be true. I almost didn't put this part in, because I don't want to start a flame war, but I really think it needed to be said. ~ducks~

The best thing we can do is try and remember we are all in the same boat. We all want VG to succeed, to be a place to have fun! Some people just really need to vent right now, and some need to keep a stiff upper lip, so naturally there will be diasagreements. Just try not to take them too personally, or turn them into insult fests. Remember the guy iwth the opposite opinion to yours is really probably jsut as unhappy as you are.

I admit this could be totally way off base, but that is just how I see it.

Try and play nice all. We'll be getting along better in a month or so when people have finally moved


I also agree to all you sayd. I even got an Free trial Meridian 59 Accound because i was Bored. It was funny to see my First MMO again from 1996. But i dont want to play Old games anymore. I want a new with some of the old Features.

Shandor

[Floria]

Nice post. I think that it is important to remain positive.

I'm having fun in Vanguard but admit, it is a tad bit unpolished. I see huge potential in this game though and I'm willing to stick around and see where it goes in a few months. Right now there is really nothing out there that is enticing me to play.

[taz]

Nice post. I think that it is important to remain positive.

I'm having fun in Vanguard but admit, it is a tad bit unpolished. I see huge potential in this game though and I'm willing to stick around and see where it goes in a few months. Right now there is really nothing out there that is enticing me to play.

Yeah as of yesterday evening I and my wife discussed what we are going to play and we decided to cancel our subs to VG for now. We havent been able to play for the last 5 days...and allot of it was due to not wanting to sit here and LFG for 2 hours of our 3-4 hour play time...

[Fingis]

Why so many negative posts?

All MMOGs have negative posts on their forums. Why? Cause people with a gripe like to share. People who are happy aren't motivated to post.

I would ignore Silky Venom or at least not take it seriously if I were a Vanguardista.

I bought EQ2 online from SOE. It didn't come with all the expansions and I had to shell out another $30. I was ticked so I posted a rant on their forums. This is what customer service is.

[pablo0713]

The OP is mostly right except that VG actually has more quest oriented content than any other MMO I've ever played upon release....

....but the frustration level rises each day that I play and I've been playing since the game went retail. I also beg Sigil not to let me down and force me to go play LotRO. Last night was the first time I actually considered giving up on VG.

Its not fun to log in after a patch and die twice because they screwed up teleporting. Its not fun to CTD anywhere from 15 minutes to 3 hours into the game. Its not fun to experience the constant freaking dips in FPS whenever I go to Khal, Southwatch, Tanvu (really, any city, outpost or village) or more than two objects (like a building or another PC) appear on my screen. Its not fun having to constant form and reform groups because of that stupid grouping bug.

And, this game really doesn't have a soul. Its got a big, beautiful world and that has been the major allure for me. But there is no life. Mobs just stand around or walk in the same, short linear paths. Animals don't herd around or act animal-like. One great example are the 4 dot lvl 25 Anacondas over at the Strand of Ancients. There are so many shadetusk bores around those snakes and I thought to myself that must be how those snakes got so big. But the game doesn't show this. It would be cool to observe these snakes routinely gobble up one of those boars.

NPCs have no life. They just stand around and don't interact with each other or the environment. All the cities seem lifeless (even with PCs). Mobs are very lifeless too. Even at my level 36, it is still very easy to go around and pick off one mob and not aggro the other mob standing right there.

Sigil gave us such a beautiful world to play in, but that world is dead. Am I going to sit around and hope that this changes? I've done that for every MMO I've ever played. They keep giving us more realistic graphics but the same old dead and boring worlds to play in. Give us a world that is alive.

Its the little things like this that make be believe that VG won't be the game I will stay with for years. I stay because of the size and beauty of the world. I stay because I'm already in a great guild. I stay because of housing and boats and different mounts. But, apart from that, the world is dead. The world has no soul.

[Brit]

Answering the title of this thread directly because a lot of my thoughts have been echoed in the posts of others.

The lack of official forums where only subscribing players can post is the reason for the negativity posted on this forum and probably others like it. Sure there would still be negativity but it would have at least been posted with people subscribing to the game (though station access is a grey area).

[Mr_bloodworth]

I am bumping this slightly because I find it amusing that a thread that is relatively sincere, isnt obviously flamebaiting anyone, and appears to be a reasonable discussion has absolutely no interest. While if you want to have a 20 page thread then all you have to say is "those bastards at sigil", or "I think VG R0x3rs" and you'll have about 30 pages in five seconds.

For a minute there I thought I was on global ignore - because everytime I posted something reasonable, I hardly got a response if at all while if as in the past I posted something inflamatory then omg I'd have like 10 pages of fanbois flaming me, 10 pages of people flaming them and a enough :volcano: to at least fill 5 more pages.

ROFL.....

Welcome to Silky Venom. Your not alowed to say anything bad about the game here... For fear of being murged into a 50 page thread the devs will never read.

[niack]

I think alot of us had high expectations for this game....Many of us played EQ for many years and thought with Brad on board that this game would be even better with todays technology and the experience of the staff..... The performance of the game is very disappointing and it was probably too big of an undertaking.....As a result many people are disappointed in what the game was at release and they are showing their frustration.

[Mr_bloodworth]

All MMOGs have negative posts on their forums. Why? Cause people with a gripe like to share. People who are happy aren't motivated to post.

I would ignore Silky Venom or at least not take it seriously if I were a Vanguardista.

I bought EQ2 online from SOE. It didn't come with all the expansions and I had to shell out another $30. I was ticked so I posted a rant on their forums. This is what customer service is.


Thats not true, many MMOs do not have such anger ETC... The developers set the mood for there forums... Vanguard was touted as an elitist game, that would hold to a strict "Vision" and it was for the "Hardcore" or at the very least "opposite of wow"... thus, you have the removal of any official forums ("To build a stronger community") , and a community left to deal with the backlash of unrealized promises.

[Fingis]

Thats not true, many MMOs do not have such anger ETC... The developers set the mood for there forums....

Look at WoW's forums and EQ2's. Both have negative posts.

Let's face it though, Vanguard has major problems at the moment. If some subscribers want to complain about these problems, they should have, and need to have an outlet.

But even after all the major problems are fixed, you're still going to have negative posts. People will always complain.

[hmsilven]

I personally have been since beta 4 very happy with the game and therefore cannot share the point of view of the OP. My experiences with MMOGs limit to WoW and EQ2 (and shortly testing many others from UO to EVE), and thus this game has a lot to offer for me. I believe this game will be an incredibly nice experience (to me it is at times already now :)) once it has been "polished", but if people see leaving it as the only option, it may never even have the chance.

Furthermore, a lot of people seem to be complaining about the performance. I havent really had any big problems since the game went live and I am running the game on a little over one year old comp on balanced settings. I do /flush often, and havent had a problem with CTDs in a month. The bugs causing your death are naturally highly annoying, but they also tend to get handled quite fast, as this latest example with the teleporters shows.

Also, what seems to be forgotten here, is that that the game itself is huge (WoW at launch, I think was about 17% of the size of this one). And they were forced to launch it early, which was even openly stated. My point of view is, that the amount of work that Sigil has done in the past 5 years to develop this game, should not be undermined, and the game really should be given a chance to overcome its problems due to early launch. So I do keep on subscribing and supporting this ambitious project, and naturally enjoying the game :)

My system specs:
3.00 gigahertz Intel Pentium D
Gigabyte 8I945P-G
NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT
2048 Megabytes Installed Memory
Maxtor 6L300R0 HD
Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 (build 2600)

[Poke]

Lots of good stuff...


The game will stand or fall based on it's own merits not what is said on a forum. People ultimately will talk with their wallets. Everything else is BS.

The fact that Sigil will not release the "Official" subscription numbers via a press briefing tells you everything you need to know about this game. I am not talking about a blurb embedded in some forum full of Asshats.

After the guys over at Turbine finish dancing the happy dance and passing around the money hats after their launch tomorrow you will see an "Official" press briefing stating the number of boxes purchased and the number of subscriptions.

And "no" I will not be playing LoTR. It is not my type of game. I am speaking to them the say way, with my wallet. Do you think the fact I just said I do not like LoTR on a forum will make it fail?

[Mr_bloodworth]

Look at WoW's forums and EQ2's. Both have negative posts.

Let's face it though, Vanguard has major problems at the moment. If some subscribers want to complain about these problems, they should have, and need to have an outlet.

But even after all the major problems are fixed, you're still going to have negative posts. People will always complain.

Yes, but my point is, not to such severity. Not all MMO forums are like this..not by far.