Ex-VG dev post on the FoH website.

[kcxiv]

The world size at launch WAS cut down dramatically.

Plan A was to ship with Thestra, Qalia, Kojan (a much larger Kojan) as "starter" islands, 3 "intermediate" islands about 75% of the size of the starters, and one huge "advanced" continent 4x as big as a starter, and quite a few small theme islands, with a level cap of 100 on release. The starter continents would have contained 1-30 content, intermediates 30-70, the advanced 70-100, and the theme islands would vary. In addition, 5 more post-expansion continents were spec'd out that expanded on the "menace" storylines found on the starter continents (undead, djinn, ulvari, and more).

Plan B was to ship with Thestra, Qalia, a full-sized Kojan, and hopefully one or more of the intermediate islands, reserving the advanced and beyond for expansion, and cutting the level cap on release to 75. We started moving towards that in late 2003.

Plan C was same as above, but with a full sized Kojan, and the current level 50 cap. That was the 2004 plan.

Plan D is what you see now, with a downsized Kojan, and that started around 2005.

Assets (including the entire landmass) for one of the intermediate islands were built at the same time Thestra and Qalia were being constructed in 2003/2004, and I fully expect at least that island to make it into the next expansion since there was a lot of work done on it already.

For the entire time I was with Sigil, the Art department was the largest department by far. It was only at later stages, after a goodly bit of the world had been constructed, that they ramped up designer staffing.

And almost the entire time I was there, the Art department was in crunch mode, furiously trying to build as much of the world as they could, at the same time having to go back and rework things as engine tech and building methodology evolved. It was still easier to tweak geometry and apply new shaders than it was to just throw out already built work, btw.

The oft-cited "redesign(s) of the game" last year were almost entirely gameplay and code, both much easier to do than reworking art assets that had taken nearly 5 years to construct.

In defense of that "redesign", it was always the plan to adjust gameplay if some of our ideas didn't pan out, like the semi round-based combat, or travel mechanics, etc, and we knew we'd be likely to change many things we'd planned in 2002.

We also knew some things would likely be deferred until after release. Things like player cities and all the mechanics that come with that, the full list of planned classes and races (hello insect-men and Kojani barbarians), and so on.

The world is still huge now and has a good amount of mechanical depth, but it's only a fraction of what we WANTED to build, and if the game continues at its current pace and keeps subs, I'm betting you'll see more of those original plans come to life over the months and years.

Were we stupidly ambitious? Of course we were, and we knew it. But with a decent portion of the team involved in EQ2's early stages, and the rest of us watching it as it evolved, we didn't want to do what they did, which was (in many of our opinions at the tiime) a huge compromise. EQ2 was supposed to be mostly seamless, was supposed to be much larger, no or limited instancing, etc. And the simple fact is that many mechanics in EQ2 were done they way they were done just to be DIFFERENT from EQ, which galled some of us to no end.

We weren't watching Blizzard, couldn't watch Blizzard like we watched EQ2, so EQ2 (and SWG, and EQ1 expansions) were our benchmarks. Do it better than they did, and do it bigger, while still retaining what we liked about EQ1. By the time WoW was really on the radar, simple inertia prevented many sweeping changes, and faith in our basic concepts took care of the rest.

But the fact remains that the Sigil team managed to incorporate much of the original specs with hooks for quite a few more, and actually ship a product that many (myself included) are enjoying, albiet a rough product.

And that's not my ego talking, very little of what I worked on there is in the game today, other than names and a little backstory. Diplomacy is an entirely different animal than I'd concepted, for instance, and Kojan only bears a passing resemblance to what I spec'd. The only thing beyond names that I can point a finger to in the current game and say "I did that" is the Attribute system.

Were I a vindictive person, I'd be rooting for the game to tank, but I'm truly pleased at how well it turned out for the most part. I have one character in the 40's, another in the 30's, both unguilded, so I've got quite a bit of playtime under my belt, and it's not masochism or itoldyousoism that keeps me playing, I'm genuinely enjoying the game.

Do I think it could have been better if I'd stayed? Sure, in some cases, and there's a desire at times to have a week or so with the dev tools and free reign in some area just to prove that, but that's a passing impulse and wishful thinking for the most part. I left, and that's that.

Polish does need help, partly because the content designers there need more experience under their belts (and they're getting it...the hard way), and partly because things were rushed. Bugs happen, especially in a rushed environment, but they're doing a fair job of squashing those.

I don't think you're going to see dramatic gains in performance via code tweaking in the future, there's a limit to what can be done (and they've done a hell of a lot already), but I think the hardware is catching up, and even with older hardware it's still playable for many. However, I realize that many many potential players are held back from enjoying the game for performance reasons as well.

From my point of view, that's Vanguard's biggest shortcoming. Poor performance is real for many. Gameplay decisions, art style, etc, are subjective, some like it, some don't. But it's hard to decide if you like it or not if you simply can't run the game.


I thought this post was a very very good read. I am posting it here, becuase its good stuff.

[rhagz]

Cue up 'omgz vg pplz posting on foh and not fansites' in 5..

[kcxiv]

Cue up 'omgz vg pplz posting on foh and not fansites' in 5..

He's not a dev anymore, he can post wherever the hell he pleases. lol

[jonyak]

Cue up 'omgz vg pplz posting on foh and not fansites' in 5..

4..

[vancrapola]

Cue up 'omgz vg pplz posting on foh and not fansites' in 5..

3...

[Candystore]

*waits patiently to post it*:o

[vancrapola]

*waits patiently to post it*:o

2..1..

[Candystore]

**** YOU DEV's for AGAIN posting on a GD, no good, ****ing FoH Guild website instead of the forums people actually read!!



edited- Labyrrinth
~

[bitter_bloodmage_01]

Awesome post, It was refreshing to see someone telling the truth about Vanguard with no spin or bullshit. The REAL vanguard.

I find it hilarious these game engines keep evolving but the textures and color schemes just get worse and worse. EQ1 to this day still remains top dog in the graphics department.


I don't have hate for it nor anyone associated with it but certainly love the drama.

I have been playing these games since 2000 when I started playing EQ and I have never played such a pitiful excuse for a game as Vanguard. It is flawed to the core in every way. Every aspect of the game is the wrong way to be successful. I find it very interesting.

I also find it interesting that fine Players such as yourself are a major part of the it's downfall. Soon none of the people who quit will be around and you will find Telon a very lonely place. A very lonely place indeed. Because once all the so called "Whiners" are gone, you will actually have to play the game. That my friend is the ultimate revenge of the "Whiners". To have the Vanbois actually have to play the game instead of chat on the forums and tell people to "Go Back to WoW". We may not go back to WoW but we are getting the Hell out of Telon. Good Luck.

[Poke]

I thought this post was a very very good read. I am posting it here, becuase its good stuff.


That Kendrick seems to be a really classy guy. Why did he leave?

Also, I would like to know why a LFG tool was not the topmost priority. They should have built the game around the LFG tool. At least launch with the one from EQ1 to start.

[Poke]

Awesome post, It was refreshing to see someone telling the truth about Vanguard with no spin or bullshit. The REAL vanguard.

I find it hilarious these game engines keep evolving but the textures and color schemes just get worse and worse. EQ1 to this day still remains top dog in the graphics department.


I don't have hate for it nor anyone associated with it but certainly love the drama.

I have been playing these games since 2000 when I started playing EQ and I have never played such a pitiful excuse for a game as Vanguard. It is flawed to the core in every way. Every aspect of the game is the wrong way to be successful. I find it very interesting.

I also find it interesting that fine Players such as yourself are a major part of the it's downfall. Soon none of the people who quit will be around and you will find Telon a very lonely place. A very lonely place indeed. Because once all the so called "Whiners" are gone, you will actually have to play the game. That my friend is the ultimate revenge of the "Whiners". To have the Vanbois actually have to play the game instead of chat on the forums and tell people to "Go Back to WoW". We may not go back to WoW but we are getting the Hell out of Telon. Good Luck.

Why the **** are you coping my posts.

edited - Labyrrinth

[Moosehead]

Great read, i agree with everything he has to say about the current game, actually its nice to read something about vanguard from someone who isnt disgruntled. This game is worth my 15 bucks a month.

[Candystore]

We weren't watching Blizzard, couldn't watch Blizzard like we watched EQ2, so EQ2 (and SWG, and EQ1 expansions) were our benchmarks. Do it better than they did, and do it bigger.

Ok, isn't that just copying, almost plagarism?

Vision my ***.

[Melios]

I had no idea they originally planned for a 100 level cap, or that there were so many other islands planned. Now, I know of Lothenland and Avra, and I think the former is being planned for an expansion.

Interesting that there was going to be an insect-man race and Kojani barbarian race. I wonder, are they still in the design documents?

Ok, isn't that just copying, almost plagarism?

Vision my ***.

This is what they mean by third generation. Did you expect them to completely start from scratch and ignore all other MMO's being made? :rolleyes:

[Candystore]

This is what they mean by third generation. Did you expect them to completely start from scratch and ignore all other MMO's being made? :rolleyes:

No, but they took the gameplay from EQ1, the UI interface from WoW, the animations from DoAC iirc, the engine from EPIC (unreal engine), the tree and terain generator from another company.

And now the guy says they watched WoW and EQ2 and took all the elements they could from it, only made it bigger.

Really, Vision?

[kcxiv]

Great read, i agree with everything he has to say about the current game, actually its nice to read something about vanguard from someone who isnt disgruntled. This game is worth my 15 bucks a month.
I agree, i like the game, and i think its going to be a damn good game when they finally complete it. Its good right now, but i am in no rush to hit 50 right now. We all know there isnt anything to really raid yet. So i am just taking it easy.

[kcxiv]

No, but they took the gameplay from EQ1, the UI interface from WoW, the animations from DoAC iirc, the engine from EPIC (unreal engine), the terrain and terain generator from another company.

And now the guy says they watched WoW and EQ2 and took all the elements they could from it, only made it bigger.

Really, Vision?He said they did NOT watch WoW. They watched EQ1 and EQ2.

[rhagz]

He said they did NOT watch WoW, EQ1 and EQ2.

Actually he said they didn't watch WoW like they watched EQ, EQ2 and SWG. Those they did watch.

EQ2 (and SWG, and EQ1 expansions) were our benchmarks. Do it better than they did, and do it bigger.

[kcxiv]

No, but they took the gameplay from EQ1, the UI interface from WoW, the animations from DoAC iirc, the engine from EPIC (unreal engine), the tree and terain generator from another company.

And now the guy says they watched WoW and EQ2 and took all the elements they could from it, only made it bigger.

Really, Vision?

Ok, isn't that just copying, almost plagarism?

Vision my ***.
YOu dont think EQ watched UO? you dont think WoW watched EQ and EQ2 ? you dont think they stole idea's from the game and tried to make them better? get over yourself sport.

[kcxiv]

Actually he said they didn't watch WoW like they watched EQ, EQ2 and SWG. Those they did watch.

Well, they knew the game was comming out, and they didnt pay much focus to it, but its really hard to totally ignore a MMO when your making one.

[Szczuldo]

No, but they took the gameplay from EQ1, the UI interface from WoW, the animations from DoAC iirc, the engine from EPIC (unreal engine), the tree and terain generator from another company.

And now the guy says they watched WoW and EQ2 and took all the elements they could from it, only made it bigger.

Really, Vision?

If the gameplay was sucessful in its day, recreate it and make it better, never played EQ1 so i cannot judge this. UI is just a basic setup, you cannot steal a UI since all it is is a way for users to use their abilities and read things on their screens. Anyway, players can make their own UIs. Animations are coincidental, just because something is similar does not mean it was taken from it. If there is a game engine out, be it the unreal or something else, why not use it?

oh and in case you did not get that he said they did NOT watch wow, i'll tell you again, he said they did NOT watch WoW as much as they did EQ

[rhagz]

Well, they knew the game was comming out, and they didnt pay much focus to it, but its really hard to totally ignore a MMO when your making one.

But it's hard to see what works and what doesn't before release. Plus bringing in people to your team that were working on EQ2 gives you insight that just playing the beta of a game doesn't.

[Grim1]

Great read.

Explains quite a bit and gives us some interesting ideas of what the future may hold. I hope they make Kojan a complete area like they originally planned. It's going to be fun to see the expansions.

Like Kcxiv I'm also just enjoying the ride. Working on the house and the boat atm. Going to do Diplo eventually. Hell some day I may even break level 20 adventuring.

Not in a hurry to get to 50 since real raiding stuff isn't in yet.

[kcxiv]

Actually he said they didn't watch WoW like they watched EQ, EQ2 and SWG. Those they did watch.

Hence the obvious lack of product quality. They set the sights too low.
So what were these sites? and how are they to low?

I actually want to know why you think the game is bad? outside of the performance and bugs they have? We all know the game isnt finished and has bugs. So what exactly do you hate about it?

[rhagz]

Terrible performance, gamebreaking (or at least really hindering) bugs, and so incomplete it puts a brand new 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle to shame.. and having to pay for it isn't enough?

[Thisle1234]

Hence the obvious lack of product quality. They set the sights too low.

No they set their sights to high. WoW is not very complex in terms of graphics and other art designs. A comp with 512ram can run it without any problems.

Vanguard went the other extreme. High end graphics that most people dont even get to see because they play on low performance. Vanguard needs to do alot more optimization and allow the ones that do have old comps to get rid of more things that would help their game run better. Like spell particle effects,and let us turn char modeling detail down from high to low. What ever they do, they need to do it fast, and above all...RIGHT.

I think its stupid to base a game on a theory of: "In 3 years the 8800 will only cast 100-200 dollars, vanguard will succeed!"

No. Thats stupid. People wont even play the game 1 year at the current rate MMO's are coming out. Thats where their marketing logic failed. I know if i dont see SIGNIFIGANT performance increases by the time AoC comes out, then its the ol /cancel subscription command for me.

Vanguard is a great game, but the performance BLOWS. I almost wish they just made vanguard with eq1 graphics. It would be playable for pretty much everyone and the game would be 10000000x better due to that fact. The dev in the above post is correct when he said, its hard for people to judge if vanguard is a good game or not when they cant even run it. That will be VG's downfall imo.

It was a serious blunder to try and go way high end with graphics. Lets hope they can find a fix other than waiting for me to buy an 8800, because thats not going to happen any time soon.

[kcxiv]

Terrible performance, gamebreaking (or at least really hindering) bugs, and so incomplete it puts a brand new 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle to shame.. and having to pay for it isn't enough?
I already said aside from the bugs, they will be fixed. The bugs for me havve NEVER been gamebreaking. I havent ever lost a corpse, or had a CTD. I am talking about the mechanics of the game. The game itself is fun. If it were polished it would be imo amazing. Again, i know it has bugs and for some its annoying.

[Grim1]

Terrible performance, gamebreaking (or at least really hindering) bugs, and so incomplete it puts a brand new 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle to shame.. and having to pay for it isn't enough?

Yeah we get it, you don't like the game and you have a crappy computer.. I love this game and don't have the issues you do. My computer isnt the best but apparently it's good enough since it doesnt effect my enjoyment of the game.

The only problem I have with you bashers is that you assume that everyone feels the way you do and are have the same issues. Well we don't hate the game and we aren't having your problems. So obviously you are wrong in your ASSUMPTIONS.

But your too cool to admit that I guess. Everything must revolve around you because you say so.....

[Candystore]

and so incomplete it puts a brand new 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle to shame..

~

[HorseWithNoName]

I can't help but think that many of the "whiners" on this site don't or haven't even played the damn game.

It is a good read, and it is an outlook at the "real" Vanguard - the one I very happily pay $15 a month to play.

[Spatzimaus`]

And yet again, we've got a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" setup. No matter what long-term plans Sigil admits to, they'll be criticized. This dev says that they originally planned for the world to be much, much larger, and that it was periodically trimmed down to fit the realities of the engine, the server limits, etc., but that artwork for some of those other continents have been done for YEARS.

Isn't this a good thing? To me, it implies that when the first expansion comes out, not only will the world expand a bit, but it won't feel rushed; there'll be some truly unique artwork/environments that had been developed over time. How many games have you played where expansion territories just felt like "more of the same", places clearly just intended for gameplay, without any real effort to integrate them into the mythology? Since they've built so much of those continents already, I'd hope that VG's first expansions should be far better than this.

Take EQ1 as an example. The original plan, supposedly, was to have 5 continents at release (Odus, Antonica, Faydwer, Kunark, Velious), but Kunark and Velious were delayed for expansions (but more zones were added to the original three, to compensate). And of the three remaining, Odus was practically nonexistent until a half-dozen extra zones were added years later. When Kunark was released, some of the new material had a nice, "decayed empire" Romanesque feel to it, but most of the zones just felt like big hunting areas (and often BETTER hunting areas, since the devs were learning from their mistakes). Velious was the same way; sure, they added some lore about the dwarf-vs-giant-vs-dragon rivalries, but most of it just FELT like grinding areas, although again the devs were designing serial quests, quest armors, etc. much better than before. The later expansions were even worse for this... "hey, we've got a moon now, and for some reason it's completely habitable!"

So really, I'm just thankful that we've finally been given some evidence (by someone who'd have little reason to lie about it) that the game has been designed for the long-term, and that the expansions will be worth buying. (What this reminds me of most is Guild Wars: Nightfall, an expansion that clearly had taken a lot of artwork effort but which added tremendously to the game.)

[rhagz]

Yeah we get it, you don't like the game and you have a crappy computer.. I love this game and don't have the issues you do. My computer isnt the best but apparently it's good enough since it doesnt effect my enjoyment of the game.

The only problem I have with you bashers is that you assume that everyone feels the way you do and are have the same issues. Well we don't hate the game and we aren't having your problems. So obviously you are wrong in your ASSUMPTIONS.

But your too cool to admit that I guess. Everything must revolve around you because you say so.....


He asked, I answered. I know that's a hard concept for you to grasp, but please do try to keep up.

[Soluss]

No. Thats stupid. People wont even play the game 1 year at the current rate MMO's are coming out. Thats where their marketing logic failed. I know if i dont see SIGNIFIGANT performance increases by the time AoC comes out, then its the ol /cancel subscription command for me.

Vanguard is a great game, but the performance BLOWS.

There are no performance fixes comming in the significant sense you want. Sure they may fix a memory leak here and there but your FPS is not gonna go up from what it is now, your chunking is not gonna go away..etc without upgrades.

Alot of people are under delusions that a major performance fix is comming...It is NOT. The game plays how the game plays and thats that.

[Grim1]

He asked, I answered. I know that's a hard concept for you to grasp, but please do try to keep up.

Oh its hard to fall back to your level but I put out the effort since you seem so distraught over a game.

[Grim1]

I can't help but think that many of the "whiners" on this site don't or haven't even played the damn game.

It is a good read, and it is an outlook at the "real" Vanguard - the one I very happily pay $15 a month to play.

/agree

[rhagz]

Oh its hard to fall back to your level but I put out the effort since you seem so distraught over a game.

Well, to me it seems you are the one who is distraught. I gave a point blank honest answer to a question. Yes those are my opinions as 'what do you dislike' is entirely subjective. I am truly sorry that my answer did not fit your criteria as acceptable posting material, but it is what it is. Deal with it.

[Grim1]

Well, to me it seems you are the one who is distraught. I gave a point blank honest answer to a question. Yes those are my opinions as 'what do you dislike' is entirely subjective. I am truly sorry that my answer did not fit your criteria as acceptable posting material, but it is what it is. Deal with it.

"Deal with it"... interesting advice coming from someone who can't seem to.

News flash for you. There are many of us who like the game. When people like you lie and try to say your problems are our problems then yes some of us will call you out. "Deal with it" as you say.

[sumuji]

For the entire time I was with Sigil, the Art department was the largest department by far. It was only at later stages, after a goodly bit of the world had been constructed, that they ramped up designer staffing.

Probably obvious to most people that play the game. Seems they focused entirely too much on creating the world that they are way behind on most everything else.

[Korusus]

Hmm.. that was a very depressing read. I'm glad he posted it though.

EDIT: BTW, can we get a link to the thread that post is in? I don't feel like navigating the polluted waters of FoH to find it.

[kcxiv]

Terrible performance, gamebreaking (or at least really hindering) bugs, and so incomplete it puts a brand new 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle to shame.. and having to pay for it isn't enough?

Hmm.. that was a very depressing read. I'm glad he posted it though.
actually, i thought that was a very postive read for the game.

They had alot of plans if something didnt work on paper.


Its like in everything else, something on paper doesnt always work when it comes down to it. Take the New York Yankee's for the last 5 years. lol

[kcxiv]

Probably obvious to most people that play the game. Seems they focused entirely too much on creating the world that they are way behind on most everything else.
Like he said though, we will more then likely see that content as the months go buy. Which i think is going to be a good thing.

[Almighty God]

Hmm.. that was a very depressing read. I'm glad he posted it though.

You would think that a team composed of many people who'd worked on a popular MMO before would at least have a good idea of how to develop a game (I'm now talking about polish, lack of bugs, content...as opposed to graphics style or their gameplay decisions). Maybe a case of buying into their own hype? (remember that VG started production in '02)

[rhagz]

Like he said though, we will more then likely see that content as the months go buy. Which i think is going to be a good thing.

It is a good thing to have plans and even a head start on future expansions, but the problems that worry me most is the performance. He basically is saying it is what it will always be.. and that right there is the problem. Waiting for opimization won't help, and the only solution is to throw money at it.

[kcxiv]

Probably obvious to most people that play the game. Seems they focused entirely too much on creating the world that they are way behind on most everything else.

It is a good thing to have plans and even a head start on future expansions, but the problems that worry me most is the performance. He basically is saying it is what it will always be.. and that right there is the problem. Waiting for opimization won't help, and the only solution is to throw money at it.
yes, i am sure it will be tweaked to run a tad better, but it will not run great on average machines. I plan to buy me a nice computer soon anyways. I know not everyone will have one, but i like to upgrade my cpu ever 2 years or so, and year 2 is comming up soon.

[Grim1]

It is a good thing to have plans and even a head start on future expansions, but the problems that worry me most is the performance. He basically is saying it is what it will always be.. and that right there is the problem. Waiting for opimization won't help, and the only solution is to throw money at it.

.....

I didnt read that at all. You make a lot of assumptions. All he said was the performance issues for people with low end computers hurt them. Also ..

but I think the hardware is catching up, and even with older hardware it's still playable for many

.. that is very different from the spin you threw on it. Perhaps you could should try not to exagerate so much. People might actually believe what you are saying then.

[Thisle1234]

There are no performance fixes comming in the significant sense you want. Sure they may fix a memory leak here and there but your FPS is not gonna go up from what it is now, your chunking is not gonna go away..etc without upgrades.

Alot of people are under delusions that a major performance fix is comming...It is NOT. The game plays how the game plays and thats that.

If this is the case, then vanguard will not last long.

[jedilabrat]

Honestly that post was a steaming pile of crap designed by a designer who honestly is just rubbing his own rhubarb. Way to go man, good for you man, is that what he wanted to hear? If that is the case please just move along and shut your hole former employee of sigil.

The game is a horrible disaster due to designing the game at the last possible moments. The game you play now is nothing more than a game developed from August 06 and nothing more. Sure they spent time on art but for what, most of what I see in game is honestly crap and poorly designed on top of that. Cities are players traps and often spread out with no real rhyme or reason. Is this what he worked on, cause if it is he sucked.

There is little to no excuse he can give for the state in which the game was released. There is no reason why the game is so badly programmed but only that Sigil just doesn't know how to code using their engine. There are many games of which run flawlessly using this engine, it just is not an excuse that can be used. And saying those games are not as big as VG is a joke, this game is vast but only by a chunk, of which its the only thing that is loaded into your system. you move and stuff immediately is replaced by a new view.

They spent 5 years on art? Come the hell on. Who did they have working for them first graders using crayons? Textures are crap, colors are often crap, styles and such? LOL They are mostly repeats with different shades of the same color. They basically wasted a lot of money on what?

A new and unique diplo class? There is absolutely nothing revolutionary about this game, its just a magic rip off. On top of that KOTOR II had a game that was very similar in the bar. How original is it? Not original at all. So when he mentions it I have to laugh at the picture I get on just how productive or knowing he is.

The real issue is that people like the poster were at sigil in the first place and that they had a say. The real issue is that sigil is just run by a bunch of gamers that have little knowledge of really running a company.

[Grim1]

^^ doesnt like the game and has a crappy computer.

Again you do not speak for those of us who think the game is great.

[rhagz]

^^ doesnt like the game and has a crappy computer.

Again you do not speak for those of us who think the game is great.

Duh. No one can speak for anyone but themselves.. but facts are facts, and the number of people who think the game is great is a fraction of what Sigil hoped it would be.

[jedilabrat]

^^ doesnt like the game and has a crappy computer.

Again you do not speak for those of us who think the game is great.

how would you know what I have. silly fool trixs are for kids, now run along silly rabit.

[dmodert66]

It is a good thing to have plans and even a head start on future expansions, but the problems that worry me most is the performance. He basically is saying it is what it will always be.. and that right there is the problem. Waiting for opimization won't help, and the only solution is to throw money at it.

People have short memories...People said the EXACT same thing about EQ2 2 years ago...Now everyone's saying how great it runs and how polished it is...:rolleyes:

[Soluss]

.....

I didnt read that at all. You make a lot of assumptions. All he said was the performance issues for people with low end computers hurt them. Also ..



.. that is very different from the spin you threw on it. Perhaps you could should try not to exagerate so much. People might actually believe what you are saying then.

If this is the case, then vanguard will not last long.

You must have missed this paragraph and all of Brads comments on performance then.....

I don't think you're going to see dramatic gains in performance via code tweaking in the future, there's a limit to what can be done (and they've done a hell of a lot already), but I think the hardware is catching up, and even with older hardware it's still playable for many. However, I realize that many many potential players are held back from enjoying the game for performance reasons as well.


Again to people that think that the game is going to get some miricle performance overhaul ...you are delusional

[Oogg]

Excellent read, good to know why the polish is not there.

[Oogg]

Again to people that think that the game is going to get some miricle performance overhaul ...you are delusional

Yea I agree. Looks as if Brad thinks time is on his side. New computer 3 years from now will be able to run Vanguard just fine in full raids.

[rhagz]

People have short memories...People said the EXACT same thing about EQ2 2 years ago...Now everyone's saying how great it runs and how polished it is...:rolleyes:

Which is the point I was getting at.

How many subs does EQ2 have?

[Soluss]

Yea I agree. Looks as if Brad thinks time is on his side. New computer 3 years from now will be able to run Vanguard just fine in full raids.

Yes that is the only thing that is going to make the game run better is the future computers. However when those computers come and they open up what they can do with the engines they have in place...the game will be really good. This is why they went with poor performance now is because they are looking to the future. Unfortunately they thought that the future would be closer then it is.

[Multiplex]

NDA's are wonderful things.

[Candystore]

Yea I agree. Looks as if Brad thinks time is on his side. New computer 3 years from now will be able to run Vanguard just fine in full raids.

"Hey guys :o , brad here *emo*

keep with it, you know our motto

P.O.T.E.N.T.I.A.L

I'm off to kill some other game now, cheerio
"

[Grim1]

Yes that is the only thing that is going to make the game run better is the future computers. However when those computers come and they open up what they can do with the engines they have in place...the game will be really good. This is why they went with poor performance now is because they are looking to the future. Unfortunately they thought that the future would be closer then it is.

Any decent computer you buy now will run vanguard fine. But in a sense you are right because many people don't upgrade for years. So it may be 3 years before the last person upgrades and can play.

[Almighty God]

People have short memories...People said the EXACT same thing about EQ2 2 years ago...Now everyone's saying how great it runs and how polished it is...:rolleyes:

You do realize EQ2 performance was dodgy until they replaced much of the old engine when they introduced the Echoes of Faydwer expansion last year? And that even now it still doesn't look too attractive? (their visual style is pretty bad)

http://www.forum4u.nl/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/EQ2_000005.jpg

[Multiplex]

At least it didn't run at 3 FPS. I'll trade fancy graphics for playability any day of the week.

[HorseWithNoName]

A new and unique diplo class? There is absolutely nothing revolutionary about this game, its just a magic rip off. On top of that KOTOR II had a game that was very similar in the bar. How original is it? Not original at all. So when he mentions it I have to laugh at the picture I get on just how productive or knowing he is.

I cannot even begin to tell you how hard I laughed at this. And no, I'm not laughing with you.

[Soluss]

Any decent computer you buy now will run vanguard fine. But in a sense you are right because many people don't upgrade for years. So it may be 3 years before the last person upgrades and can play.

Yeah but what they want to do with the game ...most computers would not handle it atm... I read some brad posts where he leaked some future info...such as avalanches...meteors or something hitting the ground and actualy leaving crater pits in the game world from it...stuff like that. Also if they started to add all the animations such as birds flying around and better animations from NPC's and stuff like that all over...performance would take a pretty big decline.

[Multiplex]

I cannot even begin to tell you how hard I laughed at this. And no, I'm not laughing with you.

He's got a good point. A collectible card game inside of a MMO? It IS a rip off of a bunch of CCGs out there and its not even a GOOD rip off. I'm laughing too...

And no I'm not laughing with you.

[Oogg]

Something about toons wearing pants/skirts with tails sticking out of them just crack me up.

:D

Heh, at least they have tails.:(

[elektra]

You do realize EQ2 performance was dodgy until they replaced much of the old engine when they introduced the Echoes of Faydwer expansion last year? And that even now it still doesn't look too attractive? (their visual style is pretty bad)

http://www.forum4u.nl/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/EQ2_000005.jpg

That's absolute rubbish, I played from launch until january this year and NEVER had performance issues with EQ2.
I'm talking about being able to raid on full gfx with no performance problems, sadly I think raiding in VG will be impossible in it's current condition.

i don't understand why VG's performance is so poor, it's graphics are by no means next generation , yet it runs so badly on even decent systems.

[jonyak]

That's absolute rubbish, I played from launch until january this year and NEVER had performance issues with EQ2.
I'm talking about being able to raid on full gfx with no performance problems, sadly I think raiding in VG will be impossible in it's current condition.

i don't understand why VG's performance is so poor, it's graphics are by no means next generation , yet it runs so badly on even decent systems.

thats great and all but can we stop quoteing the picture? please.

[bitter_bloodmage_01]

i don't understand why VG's performance is so poor, it's graphics are by no means next generation , yet it runs so badly on even decent systems.



EQ1 looked a lot better than this garbage and that was before Luclin!

Sigil are faced with less and less joiners and an ever decreasing user base as players discover the world of Vanguard to be a baron mixture of petit spiders, small spiders, medium sized spiders, slightly bigger spiders, large spiders and lets not forget the totally original massive spiders.

I find it hilarious these game engines keep evolving but the textures and color schemes just get worse and worse. EQ1 to this day still remains top dog in the graphics department. This isn't a matter of opinion, its unbiased statement from an artist.

[Candystore]

Sigil are faced with less and less joiners and an ever decreasing user base as players discover the world of Vanguard to be a baron mixture of petit spiders, small spiders, medium sized spiders, slightly bigger spiders, large spiders and lets not forget the totally original massive spiders.

>

[Aroua999]

Tbh, I had terrible performance with EQ2, it lagged, it took foooorrrreeeever, to zone. I had to keep the graphics turned all the way down to play. that was back when I had a crappy computer.

however, truning down the graphics fixed most of my laggy issues (though it made the game look horrid), so at least it could be played.

Still, this is off-topic, unrelated to bad performance of VG. Thats is a whole different ballgame.

[Fitch07]

So, after several weeks of (supposedly) a load of people quitting, a ( supposedly) game breaking machine-gun clicky exploit left unfixed for hours, and numerous other complaints/whines etc about the game ... Along comes an ex-employee of VGSoH, and posts on a well known forum stating that he isn't disgruntled, that he plays the game himself and LOVES it.. and offeres a bunch of tantalising insights that no-one has even heard about before...


And no-one thinks "spin"?

Well known 2 bit grifter piece lol, something is failing, so someone credible pops up out of nowhere and says something great in support.. happens all the time in business, and probably just happened here too :p

[bitter_bloodmage_01]

So, after several weeks of (supposedly) a load of people quitting, a ( supposedly) game breaking machine-gun clicky exploit left unfixed for hours, and numerous other complaints/whines etc about the game ... Along comes an ex-employee of VGSoH, and posts on a well known forum stating that he isn't disgruntled, that he plays the game himself and LOVES it.. and offeres a bunch of tantalising insights that no-one has even heard about before...


And no-one thinks "spin"?

Well known 2 bit grifter piece lol, something is failing, so someone credible pops up out of nowhere and says something great in support.. happens all the time in business, and probably just happened here too :p


excellent analysis. I hadn't thought of that.

[Khaunshar]

Is it tinfoil hat time yet?

Its highly amusing to see people trying to read into, distort and spin anything into anything else, as long as it doesnt challenge their opinion.

[Loampounder]

And no-one thinks "spin"?

Why? How can you be so cynical as to think an ex-employee could not possibly have some positive experience in the game? Is there one ounce of basis for your cynicism?

It was decent response from someone who saw the game shrink. He sounds sincere and honest. Take it for what it's worth.

[HorseWithNoName]

So, after several weeks of (supposedly) a load of people quitting, a ( supposedly) game breaking machine-gun clicky exploit left unfixed for hours, and numerous other complaints/whines etc about the game ... Along comes an ex-employee of VGSoH, and posts on a well known forum stating that he isn't disgruntled, that he plays the game himself and LOVES it.. and offeres a bunch of tantalising insights that no-one has even heard about before...


And no-one thinks "spin"?

Well known 2 bit grifter piece lol, something is failing, so someone credible pops up out of nowhere and says something great in support.. happens all the time in business, and probably just happened here too :p

Man, you're REALLY desperate to find some kind of hole for you to dig into, aren't you?

As for the guy who said card games aren't original: **** you and your worthless empty head. Nothing is original. The best thing we can do is take what's already been made, give it a good spit shine and polishing, and make it better. And quite frankly, the Diplomacy game is a hell of a lot better then that worthless Pazak.

You morons are just complaining for the sake of complaining at this point. What's next, LOTRO isn't original because it's just a cheap MMO rip off of Lord of the Rings? Gimmie a break.

[Moosehead]

lie cheat and steal, nature of the beast, but i believe this guy, even when I never saw this post it was worth 15 bucks a month in my mind

[Ominous]

I had no idea they originally planned for a 100 level cap, or that there were so many other islands planned.

Yeah they were gunning for a level cap of 100 until Summer 2005.

Hmm.. that was a very depressing read. I'm glad he posted it though.

EDIT: BTW, can we get a link to the thread that post is in? I don't feel like navigating the polluted waters of FoH to find it.

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27757-nino-one-upsides-vg-60.html#post698429

[Qandow]

Yeah but what they want to do with the game ...most computers would not handle it atm... I read some brad posts where he leaked some future info...such as avalanches...meteors or something hitting the ground and actualy leaving crater pits in the game world from it...stuff like that. Also if they started to add all the animations such as birds flying around and better animations from NPC's and stuff like that all over...performance would take a pretty big decline.

By the time the general populations hardware catches up enough for Brad's avalanches, who is going to want to play a 2 to 3 year old game when there will be so many choices by then to pick from? If you can't get people at launch, it is like pulling teeth to get them 2 years later.

Everyone now says EQ2 is so much better but last I checked, they haven't added servers since the big server merge. So although they may be seeing some trickle of growth 2 1/2 years later, for all intents and purposes, EQ2 was and still is a flop. IF EQ2 had launched a good solid game, playable at a decent framerate at launch on average machines they probably would have had double the population they have now at least. When you launch early, shoooting for the moon graphically and then have to rehab the game to death to attract subscribers, your game is never going to amount to much.

Reading that snippet from Kendricke, I'm more mystified than ever. What we have now is like "plan D"? Not to point out the obvious, but they even had to launch plan D way early? Apparently plan A was a total pipedream at conception. No wonder MS fled in terror. All that artwork and time spent on things that are not in the game now are nothing but a total waste of money. Money that would have been better spent finishing plan D before launch and maybe attracting more subscribers which could then finance future plans. Seems like their plans may have been a bit backwards. Build plan D, make it solid and then see if you have time and funds to step it up to plan C.

[vancrapola]

Reading that snippet from Kendricke, I'm more mystified than ever. What we have now is like "plan D"? Not to point out the obvious, but they even had to launch plan D way early? Apparently plan A was a total pipedream at conception. No wonder MS fled in terror. All that artwork and time spent on things that are not in the game now are nothing but a total waste of money. Money that would have been better spent finishing plan D before launch and maybe attracting more subscribers which could then finance future plans. Seems like their plans may have been a bit backwards. Build plan D, make it solid and then see if you have time and funds to step it up to plan C.


Thats spot on. How many millions of dollars worth of unfinished game content and artwork is just sitting unused at SiGil, due to their bad planning? Boggles the mind.

At least it shows MS has good business sense to give them the punt - the presentations from SiGil to MS from the Plan A in 03 to the Plan D in 06 must have looked like the game was being 'undeveloped' LOL!

[polityka]

He asked, I answered. I know that's a hard concept for you to grasp, but please do try to keep up.

There has been constant moaning and groaning about "game breaking bugs" but that's not something that's being experienced universally. I believe that a large part of it depends on the computer you have. Before I upgraded my computer recently, the main problem was the lag and falling through the world occasionally. Sure, there were also some CTDs but the frequency with which it happens has dropped dramatically for me, especially since I got my new computer. I get really good framerates now (30fps to 40fps in the congested areas like the cities, and an average of about 100fps in the open). So for someone like me, the game runs great, and I think it is due in part to the better specs, but also (to give credit where it's due) in part to the bug fixes that I assume have been coming in.

So I think people need to recognise that part of the problem with the bugs or even the quality of gameplay (i.e, lags) may be due to the shortcomings of their own computers. Hopefully, in time, more people thinking about buying the game will realise that you need pretty hefty specs to run it well, and I think game reviews like the one in the May 2007 edition of PC Gamer would help (it lists the recommended specs rather clearly). Most people buying a game should know that it is always far better to read the bit about recommended specs, rather than the couple of lines on minimum specs. Also, I believe that most of the other bugs in the game would be ironed out in time.

So for someone like me, Vanguard runs great and the bugs are hardly noticeable and are most certainly tolerable. What's this horrible game that you keep talking about?

[Mitch]

We may not go back to WoW but we are getting the Hell out of Telon. Good Luck.

We? Maybe You and some other but not me and most others.
Why? Because there is no real alternative to Vanguard.

Playing WoW? NEVER!!!
EQ1? I don't play 10 year old games
EQ2? Played it 3 years, my char is uber, ultra-rich, I have all I want - nothing more to to. Was a great time but now I'm bored and need a new world.
LotRO? Forget it, has no depth.
AoC? Is supposed to run on the X-Box, nothing more to say

Me and most others who play now VG will go with it, regardless what happens. We will live with all the bugs and issues until they are mostly gone. If it takes 2 years ... have no problem with it. EQ2 needed also 2 years before it was almost fine.

But I'm interested to hear where You want go after "getting the Hell out of Telon"? Tell me please :D

[bitter_bloodmage_01]

edited - Labyrrinth Vanguard is a big pile of donkey shit. 5 years in development with nothing to show.

Mismanaged money is what Vanguard is.

40$$ million dollar sinkhole, details at vgplayers.com

[HorseWithNoName]

edited - Labyrrinth

Vanguard is a big pile of donkey shit. 5 years in development with nothing to show.

Mismanaged money is what Vanguard is.

40$$ million dollar sinkhole, details at vgplayers.com

You know, for someone that claims to be apathetic to this game, you sure do spend a lot of time and energy around these forums.

[Aroua999]

There has been constant moaning and groaning about "game breaking bugs" but that's not something that's being experienced universally. I believe that a large part of it depends on the computer you have. Before I upgraded my computer recently, the main problem was the lag and falling through the world occasionally. Sure, there were also some CTDs but the frequency with which it happens has dropped dramatically for me, especially since I got my new computer. I get really good framerates now (30fps to 40fps in the congested areas like the cities, and an average of about 100fps in the open). So for someone like me, the game runs great, and I think it is due in part to the better specs, but also (to give credit where it's due) in part to the bug fixes that I assume have been coming in.

So I think people need to recognise that part of the problem with the bugs or even the quality of gameplay (i.e, lags) may be due to the shortcomings of their own computers. Hopefully, in time, more people thinking about buying the game will realise that you need pretty hefty specs to run it well, and I think game reviews like the one in the May 2007 edition of PC Gamer would help (it lists the recommended specs rather clearly). Most people buying a game should know that it is always far better to read the bit about recommended specs, rather than the couple of lines on minimum specs. Also, I believe that most of the other bugs in the game would be ironed out in time.

So for someone like me, Vanguard runs great and the bugs are hardly noticeable and are most certainly tolerable. What's this horrible game that you keep talking about?

Just to point out, I think you are confusing "bugs" with "performance" there is an argument to be made that performanc (I.E. CTD's, Lag, stuttering etc) is at LEAST partly the users issue.
Bugs are, pretty much by deffinition, part of the code and have nothing to do with a users computer.
Porting into a wall, dying on chunking, having a corpse disapear, having levitate wear off and falling to your death, etc, these are all bugs (coding issues) and cannot possible be attributed to the users computer.

Not making any judements, just pointing out the difference for you there :)

[HorseWithNoName]

Just to point out, I think you are confusing "bugs" with "performance" there is an argument to be made that performanc (I.E. CTD's, Lag, stuttering etc) is at LEAST partly the users issue.
Bugs are, pretty much by deffinition, part of the client code and have nothing to do with a users computer.
Porting into a wall, dying on chunking, having a corpse disapear, having levitate wear off and falling to your death, etc, these are all bugs (coding issues) and cannot possible be attributed to the users computer.

Not making any jusdements, just pointing out the differentce for you there :)

I dunno. Having levitate randomly fail sounds hilarious. I hope they keep that bug in <_<

[Khaunshar]

level 44 bloodmage, 25 paladin, and have died due to a bug once. I frankly dont believe any of these "my friend knows a friend who had ridiculous bug x happen" stories anymore. People just love to be victims.

[Aroua999]

level 44 bloodmage, 25 paladin, and have died due to a bug once. I frankly dont believe any of these "my friend knows a friend who had ridiculous bug x happen" stories anymore. People just love to be victims.


Let's see, I died to once bug, while crossing a chunk. I have fallen, but I didn't die. So ya, only one death for me too.

However, I have had a lot of crafting bugs (that is my main shpere)
including
-Destroyed material on grade A
-Destroyed material for all continental quest items
-Missing my grip recipe for 5 weeks. 5! I could not make any t3 weapons at all during this time.
-Unable to complete main crating quests (boats for me) for weeks. This went off an on depending on continent and tier for a long itme, and Kojan t4 boat quest is still bugged this very day.
-Tools that would not work. fixed taht, then again they would not work (ANY Etching knife) fixed that by renaming etching knives, tehn all yellow tools got broken. so 3 times my tools got broken making crafting oh so much fun.
-Crafting exp accidently reduced for 24 hours, lol
-CTD upon looting a crafted item (this happened about 10 times, and seems to be a random thing to do with looting)
-Not exactly a bug, but the whole Kojan faction thing. They bandaided it, but it's not a great fix, this was my personal last straw.

And those are just off the top of my head. I have lsot items worth 15g due to crafting bugs :(

So yes, there are horrid bugs out there. None of these were totaly game breaking (well they were for a few hours or days in each case) but all together, they became fun killers for me. I just lost trust in being able to log in and play without encountering some new bug.

I'm glad you are experiencing so very few though!

Edit: It should be noted that this is my first real complaint post. I've never listed it out before or really complained specifically. So now you know. Yes, I personally had every single one of those things happen. Some of the "balancing" was the things were the other part that got me hard. Spending ALL my money on items for my husband and having the stats radically changed 2 days later was...well, it hurt a lot. Again, not game breaking by iteslf, but on top of everything else, I could only take so much :cry:

[Choctaw]

There has been constant moaning and groaning about "game breaking bugs" but that's not something that's being experienced universally. I believe that a large part of it depends on the computer you have. Before I upgraded my computer recently, the main problem was the lag and falling through the world occasionally. Sure, there were also some CTDs but the frequency with which it happens has dropped dramatically for me, especially since I got my new computer. I get really good framerates now (30fps to 40fps in the congested areas like the cities, and an average of about 100fps in the open). So for someone like me, the game runs great, and I think it is due in part to the better specs, but also (to give credit where it's due) in part to the bug fixes that I assume have been coming in.

So I think people need to recognise that part of the problem with the bugs or even the quality of gameplay (i.e, lags) may be due to the shortcomings of their own computers. Hopefully, in time, more people thinking about buying the game will realise that you need pretty hefty specs to run it well, and I think game reviews like the one in the May 2007 edition of PC Gamer would help (it lists the recommended specs rather clearly). Most people buying a game should know that it is always far better to read the bit about recommended specs, rather than the couple of lines on minimum specs. Also, I believe that most of the other bugs in the game would be ironed out in time.

So for someone like me, Vanguard runs great and the bugs are hardly noticeable and are most certainly tolerable. What's this horrible game that you keep talking about?


So what you're saying is that drivel they put on the box that tells me required and recommended specs is just that...worthless drivel?

[Vryce]

So what you're saying is that drivel they put on the box that tells me required and recommended specs is just that...worthless drivel?

It isn't a problem specific to Vanguard, but yes. Required and recommended specs on the back of game boxes are often worthless drivel. There are no industry standards for them.

For Vanguard it seems: 15FPS at 1024x768 with everything turned to minimum might make the required specs. 20FPS at 1024x768 with bells and whistles on but at low to medium settings and no filtering might become the recommended.

[polityka]

Just to point out, I think you are confusing "bugs" with "performance" there is an argument to be made that performanc (I.E. CTD's, Lag, stuttering etc) is at LEAST partly the users issue.
Bugs are, pretty much by deffinition, part of the code and have nothing to do with a users computer.
Porting into a wall, dying on chunking, having a corpse disapear, having levitate wear off and falling to your death, etc, these are all bugs (coding issues) and cannot possible be attributed to the users computer.

Not making any judements, just pointing out the difference for you there :)

Ok. Agree that I could have been more concise. heh. Thing is, generally speaking, since I got the new PC, I've not been really experiencing any serious issues with the game. For instance, I used to frequently log on to find myself stuck in the wall. I had to either use the /stuck yes function or if it was a toon like a sorcerer, evac out. That doesn't happen anymore (touch wood). Also used to fall to my death everytime I log on in NT on Thestra. Also doesn't happen anymore.

So perhaps such specific issues have been addressed to some degree by the patches and not necessarily the hardware, but I think my main point remains valid. That with better hardware, and given some time for Sigil to iron out the bugs, the game can and does get better. My upgraded hardware has certainly improved the game's performance significantly. Bottom line is that Vanguard really isn't the train wreck that some in this forum seem to insist it is.

So what you're saying is that drivel they put on the box that tells me required and recommended specs is just that...worthless drivel?

Well, I don't have the box as I got the digital download but from what I gather, the system requirements for Vanguard are as follows:

MINIMUM SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

• Windows® 2000/XP/Vista
• 100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer
• 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device
• 2.4 GHz Intel processor OR 2400+ or higher model AMD processor
• 512 MB RAM
• Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 128MB of texture memory
• 100%DirectX compatible sound card
• 56K + Internet Connection
• 16X Speed DVD-ROM
• 20 Gigabytes Hard Drive Space

RECOMMENDED SPECS

• Windows® 2000/XP/Vista
• 100% DirectX 9.0c compatible computer
• 100% DirectX compatible keyboard or input device
• 3.0 GHz Intel OR 3500+ AMD processor
• 2 GB RAM
• Vertex and Pixel shader 2.0 compatible hardware with 256MB of texture memory
• DirectSound compatible audio hardware
• Broadband Internet Connection
• 16X Speed DVD-ROM
• 20 Gigabytes Hard Drive Space

My previous computer met the recommended specs almost to a T (just that I had an AMD 4000+ processor instead). The game was still pretty playable in everyway, the bugs notwithstanding. Not sure why you seem so upset. You sound like someone experienced enough to know that it would be better to check out the reviews or read up a little before buying a game. Of course, your concern may be for others who buy the game on a whim, or fail to read up before making the purchase. But I think if they based their purchase on the recommended specs, more than a few would be able to play the game ok. I know I did.

Generally speaking, I really do wonder why some get so angry over this matter. However much you paid for Vanguard, is it really worth getting so worked up just because it did not turn out the way you wanted it to? I'm sure you've spent more money on other things which didn't work out the way you planned (i.e., a date perhaps? heh). But I'm guessing you found it easier to walk away from those disappointments in life. Or perhaps you got emotionally attached to the "vision" that Sigil put out in the early days and can't let go. Well, I sincerely hope that time will heal your wounds.

[kcxiv]

So, after several weeks of (supposedly) a load of people quitting, a ( supposedly) game breaking machine-gun clicky exploit left unfixed for hours, and numerous other complaints/whines etc about the game ... Along comes an ex-employee of VGSoH, and posts on a well known forum stating that he isn't disgruntled, that he plays the game himself and LOVES it.. and offeres a bunch of tantalising insights that no-one has even heard about before...


And no-one thinks "spin"?

Well known 2 bit grifter piece lol, something is failing, so someone credible pops up out of nowhere and says something great in support.. happens all the time in business, and probably just happened here too :p

actually, he doesn't come out of "nowhere" He's been posting on the board, and has said he was an ex dev for a while now.

[kcxiv]

Yea I agree. Looks as if Brad thinks time is on his side. New computer 3 years from now will be able to run Vanguard just fine in full raids.

I remember Raiding in EQ while looking at the ground becuase i would lag to hell. lol I didnt really mind it at the time, i knew my cpu was horrible. Just like the one i have now. Its outdated and i know it.

As long as the game has a decent ammount of subs to keep it going, i could care less if it gets as big as WoW or even 1/3 of it. The bigger things get the worse shape they turn out to be.

[Champ]

The bigger things get the worse shape they turn out to be.

My mom resembles this statement.

[Miele]

You do realize EQ2 performance was dodgy until they replaced much of the old engine when they introduced the Echoes of Faydwer expansion last year? And that even now it still doesn't look too attractive? (their visual style is pretty bad)

If you post EQ2 pics, don't take them from an Amiga or something, at least take them from a rig that can run VG as well if you want to compare. Duh.

[Melios]

You know, for someone that claims to be apathetic to this game, you sure do spend a lot of time and energy around these forums.

Oh no, he just cares about getting attention. A rather common tale of late.....

[sweetdigs]

If I'd have known all along that they were basing VG on EQ2, I never would've gotten near it. EQ2 at launch and shortly thereafter was not a very good game - it got better over time once all these people left and came to work on VG.

VG should've been primarily based on EQ1, with a few improvements, such as housing, mounts, boats, etc. Bigger, badder dungeons for all level ranges. A big world. Fully developed in-game lore.

Instead, we got a huge, watered down MMO-lite.

[Candystore]

Why is this guy an "EX" VG employee anyway, did he say why?

[KombatJesus]

**** YOU DEV's for AGAIN posting on a GD, no good, ****ing FoH Guild website instead of the forums people actually read!!



edited- Labyrrinth
~

I can't help but say this but concerning the dev "He probably just logged off of WoW when he posted that". . lol.

Not you Candy, but the ex vg guy. Didn't think about how that would be taken.

[Synn]

level 44 bloodmage, 25 paladin, and have died due to a bug once. I frankly dont believe any of these "my friend knows a friend who had ridiculous bug x happen" stories anymore. People just love to be victims.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Since release I've had 1 report in a guild of 50 of a bug causing a problem with getting a corpse back, to which a GM summoned it and all was well after an hour. 1 other person has had performance problems and thats it.

[RedRider]

EQ1? I don't play 10 year old games
EQ2? Played it 3 years, my char is uber, ultra-rich, I have all I want - nothing more to to. Was a great time but now I'm bored and need a new world.


Maybe you should give EQ 1 a try, April 23 they are coming out with a box that includes the base game and all 13 expansions. Vanguard is a EQ1 wanna be and shows signs of getting easier all the time.

As for EQ2 it was released in November 2004, so 3 years will be in November 2007. Sorry my pet peeve that people always add time to their time played....

[Melios]

VG should've been primarily based on EQ1, with a few improvements, such as housing, mounts, boats, etc. Bigger, badder dungeons for all level ranges. A big world. Fully developed in-game lore.

Instead, we got a huge, watered down MMO-lite.

I'm sure Sigil hoped for that as well, but reality can be cruel.

[Aamir Khann]

Maybe you should give EQ 1 a try, April 23 they are coming out with a box that includes the base game and all 13 expansions. Vanguard is a EQ1 wanna be and shows signs of getting easier all the time.

As for EQ2 it was released in November 2004, so 3 years will be in November 2007. Sorry my pet peeve that people always add time to their time played....

I'm sorry, but so what?

I mean really. If you have fun playing, who cares what it was originally supposed to be? Does that really matter to most of the people actually playing and not wasting time here in the boards?

If your mother said she was making toll house cookies, and when she was done, she brought you chocochip cookies instead, you're telling me you would not eat them because your mother BROKE her promise to you?? Would you argue with her about who owned the flower company and rant about her not using Indian head baking powder?

C'mon!!!

You guys crack me up!

[Wiqd]

I'm sorry, but so what?

I mean really. If you have fun playing, who cares what it was originally supposed to be? Does that really matter to most of the people actually playing and not wasting time here in the boards?

If your mother said she was making toll house cookies, and when she was done, she brought you chocochip cookies instead, you're telling me you would not eat them because your mother BROKE her promise to you?? Would you argue with her about who owned the flower company and rant about her not using Indian head baking powder?

C'mon!!!

You guys crack me up!

Depends on if the Chocochip cookies she brought didn't have chocolate chips on them like the package said it would, or if they were made out of sawdust instead of cookie dough like the package said, or if you needed the blood of 13 pimply virgin boys to cook it instead of 2 cups of milk like the package said.

If the cookies taste just as good, then all is well.

[Mardy]

This is actually a pretty nice read. So in a way, Brad wasn't bluffing when he said they got a lot of things planned. They do, and they actually released a smaller version of what they wanted to release. That's good news.

As for performance, personally since I'm an avid gamer, I upgrade my system once every 2 years anyway. I was due for an upgrade, and I don't feel bad for upgrading. I find the performance fine for me, the game looks great, and the only thing they gotta fix is the occasional CTD's for me. So the comment about performance not improving much doesn't scare me. The performance is actually fine for me, they just gotta fix the CTD/mem leak bugs.

Anyways thanks for the linkage.

[takaris7]

Yeah we get it, you don't like the game and you have a crappy computer.. I love this game and don't have the issues you do. My computer isnt the best but apparently it's good enough since it doesnt effect my enjoyment of the game.

The only problem I have with you bashers is that you assume that everyone feels the way you do and are have the same issues. Well we don't hate the game and we aren't having your problems. So obviously you are wrong in your ASSUMPTIONS.

But your too cool to admit that I guess. Everything must revolve around you because you say so.....

The haters (no matter how many) will always have the vocal majority over the people who actually like the game or understand projects of this type.

[kcxiv]

The haters (no matter how many) will always have the vocal majority over the people who actually like the game or understand projects of this type.

Its because they feel cool for bashing something. Happens in every game. WoW, EQ, EQ2, and i am sure LOTRO as well, when they realize the game isnt for them.

Also, people just like to stir shit up. There is alot of people here that do it, just to get a rise out of others. ITs just the way it is.

[Motvin]

I wonder why Kendrick left Sigil. Was it on his own, or did he get the boot?
He sounded slightly bitter and was looking for a new place to work, so I think he was probably let go.

Maybe there's not enough money coming in to keep everyone, so they had to let some people go. If that's the case, it's too bad. A new game company that is struggling is bad news for us players - if only the Blizzards of the world can do really well financially, there's less incentive for other companies to try to create new MMOs.

From what Kendrick said, it sounds like the biggest problem with the development of this game was that they tried to do too much.
They planned a world that was much larger than what shipped. That just sounds crazy. It's good to dream big, but if you don't know what is realistic and what isn't, then you're going to get yourself into trouble.

[Mitch]

As for EQ2 it was released in November 2004, so 3 years will be in November 2007. Sorry my pet peeve that people always add time to their time played....

Ya, You got me :) It's because I thought at my account age which is 3 years but I forgot that SOE added extra days for each buyed expansion.


Maybe you should give EQ 1 a try, April 23 they are coming out with a box that includes the base game and all 13 expansions.

No, sorry. The engine is not all but a completely outdated engine is unacceptable for me.


Vanguard is a EQ1 wanna be and shows signs of getting easier all the time.

Only true if it's important for You how easy or how hard it is for the others (competition based thinking). I do this not, for me is only important how hard or how easy it is for me. I can make every game easy or hard for me like I want. If I want it easy I go with a full group of skilled guildmates into dungeon x and we have absolut no problems. If I want it harder I do the same dungeon with only 2 others and if I want it ultrahard I do it alone.

[kcxiv]

Funny thing is EQ1 is probably still the best MMO, its old, but the raids are still fairly fun. I recently retired to play VG, but VG wasnt the only reason i left. It was just time, after 6 and a half years, it was time to let go.

[bostonkarl]

"From my point of view, that's Vanguard's biggest shortcoming. Poor performance is real for many. Gameplay decisions, art style, etc, are subjective, some like it, some don't. But it's hard to decide if you like it or not if you simply can't run the game."

Quoted For Absolute Gospel Truth

Sigil needs a lot of subs to pay back investors. Sigil also needs subs as a revenue stream to fix bugs (like the group chat bug/disco from chat server) and add the content they envision. And Sigil needs subs to pay coders to tune the graphics engine. Subs subs subs. Its all about subs for near and long term game health.

Sigil wont get subs if people cant run the game. The retail box, unfortunately, doesn't come with a new graphics card. Also remember that the new machines that folks are buying today run Vista. Vista itself has a bunch of issues and is a resource hog just compounding the problem.

Game launch is a disaster from a business (sales+subs) perspective. This can be rectified with appropriate focus. Hint: there are too many artists currently on the payroll.

[Fingis]

Originally Posted by Kendrick View Post
The world size at launch WAS cut down dramatically.


Translation: IT'S NOT MY FAULT!!!!

I tried to tell them! They threw out everything I did! If they would've listened to me, they would've avoided the catastrophe that is Vanguard today!

No mi culpa!

[Breezer]

Taste in art style may be subjective, but it should be accepted as fact by now that you need to have some kind of distinctness to catch people's eyes and to immerse them into a specific culture.

Just aiming for "realism" in a "high fantasy" MMO is not only a cop-out it's totally illogical especially with the MMO market more main stream as it is these days (not to mention, the whole spirit of fantasy is that it isn't real!).

EQ could have looked like anything (and it did to my eyes, just as utterly generic (at worst) as Vanguard) and as long as it was in 3D, people would have gotten addicted and loved it. EQ2, they pretty much had the same customer base, so again, they didn't have to worry about selling a look, so again, totally generic cookie-cutter "fantasy".

By 3rd generation and after the ultra-stylized WoW being the most popular MMO of all time, they should have had a least a few people on that huge art team that said, "Hey guys, times have changed, Keith Parkinson's art work was great and cutting edge in the 70's but this is a whole new ball game, and filling this incredibly beautiful world with the same aesthetic as the world has come to expect from every fantasy themed media for the past 30 years is a huge mistake."

EDIT: I just want to emphasize I'm not trying to offend EQers, and hoping they will try to see past their bias. Everyone thinks their first MMO love is the best thing ever.
Also, I just wanted to add that I'm a professional creative person. To me, art style is very important in a game. I play through bugs easily (played for 2 months, I never once didn't want to play because of bugs), ultimately it was overall boringness (and a community I wasn't interested in spending all my free time with) that made me cancel my sub.

[Letsinod]

I just totally disagree. I think all the bugs, performance, and missing content is what made this game fail. Art style had very little to do with it.

[taz]

I just totally disagree. I think all the bugs, performance, and missing content is what made this game fail. Art style had very little to do with it.

The "art" is boring at best. Bugs I expected - and I know this is personal preference but how come everything looks like it was bleached? Is that what EQ1 looked like? I know EQ2 and the colors were at least a little vibrant.

[Breezer]

I just totally disagree. I think all the bugs, performance, and missing content is what made this game fail. Art style had very little to do with it.

Probably. But if they had given players some new, interesting kind of world to inhabit, given it some kind of point of view or twist that made people say, "cool, that would be freakin sweet if it were real!" then I'll bet a LOT more people would have had a deeper connection with the game and stayed.

Instead it's just like earth, and those slightly shorter robot women are elves, apparently. And those guys with wolf masks are... an entirely different race? Yeah right. When you don't feel like you're on earth, you just feel like you're in the most expected incarnation of fantasy possible. They took absolutely no risks at all whatsoever in terms of art (other than making so decisively derivitive)... what a shame.

[Tark]

Definitely a good read.

[Xofi]

Yeah I definitely didn't buy it for the looks of the game. I bought it for supposedly new gameplay ideas. Its pretty in spots but its very generic fantasy seen this a million times before looking. I always hate playing a fantasy game and realizing oh these guys are vikings and these are arabs and these are the thundercats lol. I mean really someday someone is going to come up with some actual originality when it comes to fantasy cultures, races etc but this game isn't it.

[Branlin]

That's absolute rubbish, I played from launch until january this year and NEVER had performance issues with EQ2.
I'm talking about being able to raid on full gfx with no performance problems, sadly I think raiding in VG will be impossible in it's current condition.

i don't understand why VG's performance is so poor, it's graphics are by no means next generation , yet it runs so badly on even decent systems.

See, here's where I don't agree with you. I have a VERY different recollection of EQ2 and I played it from launch to just before Echoes.

I remember raid leaders telling peeps to remember to turn down their graphics before the raid started.

I remember having a good system and not being able to go full gfx.

I remember PLENTY of performance issues when EQ2 launched.

[Blitzburg]

Game launch is a disaster from a business (sales+subs) perspective. This can be rectified with appropriate focus. Hint: there are too many artists currently on the payroll.

Hahaha... No kidding... Hard to even fault Brad for that. Doesn't Sigil have a Board? How did the orgchart with 50 artists and 3 QA personnel get approved?