Compound Spells

[Skarlath]

During Oloh's posting spree on the FOH forums, he replied to one particular member who had posted an entire battle that might occur. Oloh was discussing how the situation would present itself in Vanguard. However one of the spells the FOH member mentioned was something that got me thinking.

Grounding earth was an example of an 'earth' spell cast by a sorceror. This caused a hand to come out of the ground and grab the enemy - fixing them to the spot. However this spell was followed up by 'Engulf' which I assume had the effect of dragging the enemy into the ground. This got me thinking about spells that set up for another spell to be used. Compound spells.

In Vanguard we will have our openers, bridges and finishers. Certain bridge or finisher spells may well be unavailable at any time, except when the chain was opened with a particular spell. The opener spell 'sets up the enemy' to be hit by the bridge and finisher. This sounds great, but how logical will these bridges and finishers be.

Will bridges and/or finishers that require a particular opener be as connected as the 'grounding earth + engulf' example. The hand cannot pull the enemy into the ground if the hand hasn't been summoned in the first place. I hope you can understand what I mean by this, but I will try and give another example.

A spell puts an effect on the target that logically leads into a follow-up possibility. Grounding earth + a special version of a bolt spell are hardly intimately connected. There isn't really a logical reason why the sorceror couldn't have had access to that bolt as an opener, and so it doesn't make much sense if it is restricted as a finisher ONLY when a particular opener has been used. An aggressive levitate spell that uses conjured winds to lift the enemy into the air is connected with spells that only work if the target is floating in the air. A 'plummet' spell is perhaps an example - the winds causing the floating cease, and are replaced by a magically enhanced gravity that smashes the target into the floor. 'Plummet' wouldn't be a sensible opener - it needs something else to already be happening to the target.

So do you think Vanguard will make use of such compound spells? A game is a game, and so I am not expecting all spells to be like this. No doubt there will be some finishers which I might think 'Well did that have to be uniquely a finisher? Couldn't I have opened with that?' but it would be great if Vanguard had some exciting, branching compound spells.



As a final note, this also applies somewhat to melee combat as well. I am sure some specials will be unique 'finishers', and therefore are moves that cannot be used to open. But will these be logical? Logical in melee context would be along the lines of:

The opener gets the enemy OR the player into a certain position or perhaps orientation, or physical stance (e.g. swords poised in the right position) to execute an attack that can only be used from that particular position and therefore could not be used as an opener.


What do you guys think? Perhaps all chains should be logical? Or do you feel it doesn't really matter if the finisher in theory would have been perfectly reasonable to use as an opener if you were allowed to do so.

[Darydale]

I hope that almost all chains will be logical. I really liked the examples oh the FOH forums, and yours. It will be so much more interesting than EQ or WoW where I would: Cast DoT. Cast biggest/most mana efficient nuke. Continue nuking until DoT wears off. DoT again if needed, etc...

But I think chains would just be a pain if they don't make logical sense. You'd just have to memorize what comes after what. It would feel more like an imposed restriction, rather than you using your wizardly wisdom.

[Dreamer]

Oloh’s recent group of beta posts has me quite excited. I hope the kind of ideas you’ve presented above and the kinds Oloh has shared with us permeate conflict resolution in all three spheres.

To broaden the scope of this conversation a bit, I am truly amazed with the V:SoH boards at the moment.

Oloh has spilled the tiniest bit of gameplay. This information has me contemplating how complex the combat system is and how doggone difficult it can be for me to master the class I eventually plan to play. I cannot wait to get my hands on or otherwise generate a spells/abilities list of all classes so I can begin to understand what is going on. I feel at this point that my success is not assured. This is all goodness.

What’s confusing is there are many on the official boards still worried about in-game maps, silver cords to corpses, etc. Am I the only one with the perception that these people have the traditional, myopic, “can’t see the forest for the trees” syndrome?

It seems to me (third-hand at this point) that the V:SoH developers are truly delivering on their promise of complex, challenging gameplay. They may have made some choices to expedite our experience of that very same gameplay. But, these only serve to throw you back into that wonderful complexity that much faster.

I am further encouraged about the potential for brilliance in this game, and I’m more optimistic that Sigil can pull it off. Others are not. Am I missing something?

[Skarlath]

I hope that almost all chains will be logical. I really liked the examples oh the FOH forums, and yours. It will be so much more interesting than EQ or WoW where I would: Cast DoT. Cast biggest/most mana efficient nuke. Continue nuking until DoT wears off. DoT again if needed, etc...


I came to detest this 'script' combat. One series of spells my mage used for any encounter. Every spell should have a fantastic use - just in different situations!



But I think chains would just be a pain if they don't make logical sense. You'd just have to memorize what comes after what. It would feel more like an imposed restriction, rather than you using your wizardly wisdom.

But remember - Perception! We won't have to remember what our options are, only what our aim is! The options available pop up as being available. You don't have to fumble for keys, you just have to keep a clear head and follow your tactics.


What’s confusing is there are many on the official boards still worried about in-game maps, silver cords to corpses, etc. Am I the only one with the perception that these people have the traditional, myopic, “can’t see the forest for the trees” syndrome?

People are always like that though - It's human nature for many people to not put things into context properly. These people think *silvery cord!! Oh no*, instead of "Silvery cord in Vanguard".

The devs know what they are doing, so peoples problems like these will be resolved once they realise they actually need and love the cord. But for many people it will take them right up until they begin playing to get to that point.

Welcome to SV forums, Dreamer. :)

[Darydale]

But remember - Perception! We won't have to remember what our options are, only what our aim is! The options available pop up as being available. You don't have to fumble for keys, you just have to keep a clear head and follow your tactics.

That's true, but what I meant was that if you were deciding what Opening move to use, you might want to keep in mind what moves would open up after that. If the chains didn't make logical sense, then you'd just have to remember that Lightning came after an "Earth" spell.

Yeah I don't know :)

[Dreamer]

That's true, but what I meant was that if you were deciding what Opening move to use, you might want to keep in mind what moves would open up after that. If the chains didn't make logical sense, then you'd just have to remember that Lightning came after an "Earth" spell.

Yeah I don't know :)

The interesting thing to me, is how well you may need to know all the other classes to play yours well. Should I as a nuker bridge and open up a caster massive damage finishing move, that I or another caster can take advantage of, or is everyone's health low, and a healer should bridge so he/she can finish with a powerful group heal? The possibilities are intriguing.

[Skarlath]

The interesting thing to me, is how well you may need to know all the other classes to play yours well. Should I as a nuker bridge and open up a caster massive damage finishing move, that I or another caster can take advantage of, or is everyone's health low, and a healer should bridge so he/she can finish with a powerful group heal? The possibilities are intriguing.

Indeed.

I love the fact that characters played well as a group will achieve far greater feats than a discoordinated group. :)

[Loampounder]

The idea of logical progressions to bigger effects sounds great. I think I remember an artical a while back where Brad or Jeff mentioned steps like one warrior setting an enemy off balance, then another warrior seeing the unbalance and executes a trip to better effectiveness. I would love to see an effect being affected. For example, frost the beast into ice and then do a fireball to do even more damage, or frost and then blunt force hit to shatter.

But two things to watch for:

There must be enough openers, bridges and finishers AND different combination effects to make it fun and compelling. If a battle consists of doing the same four combinations through a dungeon, it will get old fast.

Also,we need diversity so that the combination path does not become a standard weapon. The effect wheel in EQ2 was less about effects and more about keystrokes in sequence to get more damage. Hit red key, hit flashing blue key and WHAM, +35 points of damage. Effects need to be more than just damage.

[Skarlath]

Also,we need diversity so that the combination path does not become a standard weapon. The effect wheel in EQ2 was less about effects and more about keystrokes in sequence to get more damage. Hit red key, hit flashing blue key and WHAM, +35 points of damage. Effects need to be more than just damage.

I totally agree, and that's why there needs to be lots and lots of different chains and individual specials. So that different specials are good in different situations - not just from one type of monster to another, but different situations that may or may not occur within any one fight. (E.g. you might not be able to knock this enemy off balance, and so you need to use different tactics).

As you are suggesting, the need for lots of specials may damage a hope for everything to be 100% logical. They will no doubt need to plug in some fairly illogical chains, and I am fine with that. I just hope there are some very cool logical chains we can see in action from time to time :)