Beating the Grind

[Skarlath]

You have no doubt seen a thread (or 10) with a similar title - I am not intending to start off by discussing how grinding is bad and how I feel it can be removed. I wanted a chance to state a few measures, gauge people's opinions on the topic.

The grind is by definition, bad. If you attach positive memories to 'grinding', remove them. Those positive memories were something else - 'Hunting', 'Crawls', 'Stake outs'. The grind is evil.

The grind appears when people feel the content they are currently at is sub-standard, and they need to get to the mid/end-game to enjoy the game.

How can you make players stop quantifying efficiency of spells and force them to enjoy your content? Different schools of thought produce a few ways to beat the grind mentality:


Remove/Reduce the quantifiable measure of progress. The rational being that if players cannot determine exactly what is most efficient, they won't both and wont try to grind to progress. This method may use a less quantifiable xp measure, or even none at all.

Place the real progression carrots as rewards for 'enjoying the content'. This would perhaps take the form of things like large xp rewards for completing large story quests leading to the bottom of dungeons and such. Make grindable xp a little more trivial.

Use a dynamic xp allocation system. This might take the form of a system that starts awarding you less xp per kill if you kill the same monster type over and over, or kill monsters in the same area over and over.

Make grinding absolutely mind numbing. Slow progression through low xp yield. If the grind is insanely boring, no one will want to do it?

Slow xp/level progression with the addition of non xp carrots. At the bottom of the dungeon there is the grand wizard master who you can duel to learn some awesome new spells. To get there you have to 'enjoy' lots of content along the way.

Quest Progression Requirements. You can't grind too much if there are annoying quest errands you have to run as mandatory requirements to level up.


There's a few. Is it worth trying to beat the grind? Which of these techniques work best? Which ones are most likely to keep players enjoying and subscribing?

After some of you have posted your thoughts, I'll post which I feel are the better ideas. If I have missed any ideas out, feel free to add them.

[Darydale]

I'll start off by saying that I don't really understand the exact science of it, but I know what was enjoyable and not enjoyable in EQ and WoW.

I like the first idea, to "Remove/Reduce the quantifiable measure of progress." You don't think about experience as much this way. I am not an "exp watcher" type. I find it more enjoyable when you are not too heavily focused on it.

WoW did #2 "Place the real progression carrots as rewards for 'enjoying the content.'" Many people were always "questing," and didn't want to do anything unless there was a quest reward (usually a big chunk of exp; sometimes an item in addition). This seems like a good idea because you always have something to do, some goal you are trying to accomplish, but after a while, the quests become a grind as well. Pretty soon these 15 items you have to gather for person B look a lot like those 10 items you just had to gather for person A, and you just keep slaying and collecting, and doing all these npcs' bitchwork.

I'm not sure why just killing things in an area or dungeon for a while with no exact goal can be a lot more fun than that. Maybe you create your own adventure and fun. Maybe you pay more attention to your groupmates, and have more social interaction. Maybe you just spend more time in areas, instead of just getting what you needed and going.

This is why I am not in favor of #4, "Make grinding absolutely mind numbing." Many people enjoy "aimless" killing. Let's just make some attractive alternatives.

Now I'm not saying quests are bad. They're really good. You have to have goals. Quests can get you to explore more areas and see new content, they can involve you in the story, and they can give you direction. We just need to realize that they don't solve everything, and we need to keep them from becoming repetitive and meaningless.

While I am a huge oldskool EQ fanboi(girl?), I recognize the fact that sometimes exping could be really boring. Despite being called "EverQuest," most of the time you were not on a quest. Even so, I was very driven to level up. And not in the "must reach max lvl" way that so many people are in games like WoW, where they feel like the game doesn't begin until you're 60. No, I was motivated to level and get items, and I enjoyed the journey. (Actually being a low lvl character was one of my favorite things because you are still involved with your race's starting city.)

[Skarlath]

A good analysis, and one quite close to how I feel.

I like the first idea, to "Remove/Reduce the quantifiable measure of progress." You don't think about experience as much this way. I am not an "exp watcher" type. I find it more enjoyable when you are not too heavily focused on it.

The coolest idea I have seen on the OVG in regards to making xp less quantifiable was changing the xp meter from a bar (which is easy to judge as a percentage) into a glowing sphere. As you get more xp, it glows brighter and brighter until eventually you level up and it becomes dark and dull once again.

The main benefit of this is that you can see in rough terms if you are far off from levelling, you can see if you are just about to level. You can roughly judge many stages in between. However from kill to kill you cannot absolutely quantify your progression. Obviously, xp from each kill would be hidden in this system.

I have found that the times I have most enjoyed my MMORPGS - AC1, AC2, SWG and WoW - have all been when I have ignored the xp bar. Its been when I have been so wrapped up in a quest, or social hunting, exploration, that I just haven't looked at it. If this is the same for many people then it is worthwhile inducing these things by making the xp meter less quantifiable.

On the OVF people voiced concerns that a 3rd party app could measure the glow and change it into a percentage. I don't believe this is much of a problem, there are many ways to break this behaviour. As humans can't tell the exact percentage to even perhaps 10% then it wouldn't hurt to make the glow not quite accurate - a slight random component.


WoW did #2 "Place the real progression carrots as rewards for 'enjoying the content.'" Many people were always "questing," and didn't want to do anything unless there was a quest reward (usually a big chunk of exp; sometimes an item in addition). This seems like a good idea because you always have something to do, some goal you are trying to accomplish, but after a while, the quests become a grind as well. Pretty soon these 15 items you have to gather for person B look a lot like those 10 items you just had to gather for person A, and you just keep slaying and collecting, and doing all these npcs' bitchwork.


I very much agree about WoW - they had so many quests that they were meaningless. Many quests were just boring, and so people started to grind to reach the exciting end game content. I think the trick here is to use this technique, but not exclusively. Put some quests in that are really tough, need a nice amount of group cooperation and the like, but offer a fantastic reward.

Another problem with this is that these quests become 'marker posts'. A quest that every does at a particular level. I would like to see players taking all sorts of different routes through the game, but if some quests have especially large carrots then they will become overly popular.

You didn't mention anything about the dynamic xp allocation system so I will say a quick something. I like this system. Nothing is more indicative of someone grinding as a player who partrols a 15mx15m patch just killing the same spawns over and over. This behaviour can be partially broken by clever spawns (If someone obliterates the same spawn points over and over then the monsters may well call in the big guns as reinforcements).

However the dynamic xp system just keeps players moving. Its more realistic too - xp inflow is you learning about the world. The more you do something over and over, the less they will learn on each consecutive time. Sure people will try to 'exploit' the system by hunting in 1 zone for a while, and once the xp is at a certain low point, switching to another zone, repeating and coming back. But this isnt all that bad - it can be tweaked to make sure players are actually roaming around 'hunting' rather than sitting on a spawn, making themselves dislike the game.


I'm not sure why just killing things in an area or dungeon for a while with no exact goal can be a lot more fun than that. Maybe you create your own adventure and fun. Maybe you pay more attention to your groupmates, and have more social interaction. Maybe you just spend more time in areas, instead of just getting what you needed and going.

This is why I am not in favor of #4, "Make grinding absolutely mind numbing." Many people enjoy "aimless" killing. Let's just make some attractive alternatives.


I agree that killing without aim is stepping straight into grind territory. If you kill something it should be because you need something from it (anything from meat to a weapon), because it's in your way and a threat (an adventurer would like to be able to waltz to the end boss without any resistance, but the reality is that he will come across some not so friendlies along the way), or because it is part of a story (such as killing some story end-boss.

Making killing xp trivial is just not right. Your character should be learning from these fights - it just isnt an option.

Adding in some non-xp carrots is a good idea though. Aims other than straight out progression are always good. This is a broud idea, as non-xp carrots could range from great loot from a treasure chest, to great scenery encouraging you to explore a dungeon deeper.

And again about the quests, you are right. Stupid meaningless quests are silly. They aren't fun - they become a grind just like xping. Progression requirement quests just plain suck.


While I am a huge oldskool EQ fanboi(girl?), I recognize the fact that sometimes exping could be really boring. Despite being called "EverQuest," most of the time you were not on a quest. Even so, I was very driven to level up. And not in the "must reach max lvl" way that so many people are in games like WoW, where they feel like the game doesn't begin until you're 60. No, I was motivated to level and get items, and I enjoyed the journey. (Actually being a low lvl character was one of my favorite things because you are still involved with your race's starting city.)

Progression is an, or maybe the most, important part of MMORPGs. It's why we play these games as a persistant world, rather than just as a traditional 'stages' game. We want to see effort paid off. Character progression is a key part of that - everyone wants their character to get better at what they do, and be able to take on harder challenges. See even better things.

Character progression should not be the sole focus of playing. It should be but one piece of the carrot. When we play we should get wrapped up just as much in other progressions (such as item, or story progression) and in just the playing, so that character progression doesn't just feel like work.