While Vanguard MMO economy is being fixed, pls make colored adventurer loot gear BOE!

[Shade Maelstorm]

I am grateful that Sigil did see the light in making crafted items which are colored BOE, but it wont work unless adventurer drop gear which is colored is also BOE.

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.

This is a point I was trying to make before when I posted all colored gear needs to be BOE.

This is what wow does and its easily understood why.

Until adventurer colored gear ("dungeon loot") is BOE, crafters gear will continue to drop in terms of demand, (hey the gear on both sides is comparable except one is BOE and one isnt), until dungeon loot which is colored is BOE.

If we want the Vanguard MMO economy to continue, and whilst Sigil are fixing the dupes and removing plat from the economy, as one of the Sigil devs has stated its their top priority, then Sigil would do well for all colored gear, where it is crafted or dungeon loot, to make these items BOE, all of them (if they are colored, ie not white)!

If there was any disparity between the player perceived value of crafted gear and dungeon loot before crafted items were made BOE, then the best way to have fixed that is to simply extend the time required to make the item, not to make one side BOE and screw the other side over.

Please make dungeon loot, ie adventurer loot, if its colored, BOE. Vanguard crafters forum has a post on crafted gear BOE and its debilitating effects on the Vanguard crafter community (when dungeon loot is not BOE).

BOE on one side only wont work, and if, when both sides gear is compared, crafters gear comes out better, then for goodness sake, increase the time required to craft the item (like 2 hours on the last stage, or something. In wow, some crafted items have a 24 hour cooldown, why not an crafted VG item that takes 3 hours to craft on the last stage (then its comparable to an adventurer sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours to get his sword of uberness)). And make all colored gear BOE!

In Summary, make adventurer "dungeon" loot which is colored, BOE.

Help restore and improve the Vanguard MMO economy.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, tweaking guide, diplomacy guide, kos chart, resource chart, crafter recipe lists, Vanguard trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)

[MoS]

I am grateful that Sigil did see the light in making crafted items which are colored BOE, but it wont work unless adventurer drop gear which is colored is also BOE.

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.

This is a point I was trying to make before when I posted all colored gear needs to be BOE.

This is what wow does and its easily understood why.

Until adventurer colored gear ("dungeon loot") is BOE, crafters gear will continue to drop in terms of demand, (hey the gear on both sides is comparable except one is BOE and one isnt), until dungeon loot which is colored is BOE.

If we want the Vanguard MMO economy to continue, and whilst Sigil are fixing the dupes and removing plat from the economy, as one of the Sigil devs has stated its their top priority, then Sigil would do well for all colored gear, where it is crafted or dungeon loot, to make these items BOE, all of them (if they are colored, ie not white)!

If there was any disparity between the player perceived value of crafted gear and dungeon loot before crafted items were made BOE, then the best way to have fixed that is to simply extend the time required to make the item, not to make one side BOE and screw the other side over.

Please make dungeon loot, ie adventurer loot, if its colored, BOE. Vanguard crafters forum has a post on crafted gear BOE and its debilitating effects on the Vanguard crafter community (when dungeon loot is not BOE).

BOE on one side only wont work, and if, when both sides gear is compared, crafters gear comes out better, then for goodness sake, increase the time required to craft the item (like 2 hours on the last stage, or something. In wow, some crafted items have a 24 hour cooldown, why not an crafted VG item that takes 3 hours to craft on the last stage (then its comparable to an adventurer sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours to get his sword of uberness)). And make all colored gear BOE!

In Summary, make adventurer "dungeon" loot which is colored, BOE.

Help restore and improve the Vanguard MMO economy.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, tweaking guide, diplomacy guide, kos chart, resource chart, crafter recipe lists, Vanguard trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)


No, i dont want every equip to be BoE, this is not WoW....

I am a crafter and i cant even find lvl 31-40 rare items at the broker to deconstruct (heavy armor for embersteel ores). And if they would even make rare drop equip BoE then i wouldnt be able to find anything at the broker -.-

And there is still a very high demand on crafted gear, i sell T4 rare equip easily, no problem with that, even on Frengrot... the "dead" server ~.~

[Shade Maelstorm]

No, i dont want every equip to be BoE, this is not WoW....

I am a crafter and i cant even find lvl 31-40 rare items at the broker to deconstruct (heavy armor for embersteel ores). And if they would even make rare drop equip BoE then i wouldnt be able to find anything at the broker -.-

And there is still a very high demand on crafted gear, i sell T4 rare equip easily, no problem with that, even on Frengrot... the "dead" server ~.~

I forgot to mention the BOE status would need to be altered, such that they can still be traded and deconn'd but just not worn again, thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki

[Gecon]

This is what wow does and its easily understood why. I dont care what WoW does, I play Vanguard. If you want to play WoW, THEN GO PLAY THAT and dont infiltrate MY game with that stuff just because you're used to it !

I vote for getting rid of the stupid "Bind on Equip". If the only way you think you can fix the economy is by making it impossible to trade the wares, then you are really clueless.

BoE fixes the economy by destroying it.

[Vaernimus]

I dont care what WoW does, I play Vanguard. If you want to play WoW, THEN GO PLAY THAT and dont infiltrate MY game with that stuff just because you're used to it !

I vote for getting rid of the stupid "Bind on Equip". If the only way you think you can fix the economy is by making it impossible to trade the wares, then you are really clueless.

BoE fixes the economy by destroying it.

I hate to break it to you, but you'll remain angry all your MMO life if you expect there to be zero comparisons between the current 600lb gorilla WoW, and any competing MMOs.

Back to the OP - i agree, it makes sense to level the playing field. The trick is to find a way to make the high tier items accessible for decon post-usage. Personally I propose a priced system that means you must pay 50% of the items original cost on top of the base cost to a ccrafter NPC in order to release the bound soul. Just an idea.

[Andok]

I hate to break it to you, but you'll remain angry all your MMO life if you expect there to be zero comparisons between the current 600lb gorilla WoW, and any competing MMOs.

Back to the OP - i agree, it makes sense to level the playing field. The trick is to find a way to make the high tier items accessible for decon post-usage. Personally I propose a priced system that means you must pay 50% of the items original cost on top of the base cost to a ccrafter NPC in order to release the bound soul. Just an idea.


Well therein lies the problem, while this may help the crafter, it definitely hurts the adventurer that does not craft. We would no longer be able to sell the gear we upgraded, except to crafters, which limits our economy. And adventurers do not make much money fighting as it is.

Having everything BOE, forces people to do parts of the game they may not enjoy in order to make any money at all. So, IMO, this is not a viable solution. The best way of handling this would be by making rare and ultra rare recipes drop solely from mobs, thereby giving the adventurer a marketable item that could fetch decent profits and by making crafting gear the best gear in game.

Boss mobs drops rare and ultra recipes, crafters buy recipes, crafters craft rare and ultra rare equipment, adventurers buy equipment, nice flowing economy.

Harvesters already have their cash cow, crafters have theirs, adventurers need something to give them a viable income solution as well, and not being able to resell your old gear to other adventurers is not the solution.

[Vaernimus]

Well therein lies the problem, while this may help the crafter, it definitely hurts the adventurer that does not craft. We would no longer be able to sell the gear we upgraded, except to crafters, which limits our economy. And adventurers do not make much money fighting as it is.

Having everything BOE, forces people to do parts of the game they may not enjoy in order to make any money at all. So, IMO, this is not a viable solution. The best way of handling this would be by making rare and ultra rare recipes drop solely from mobs, thereby giving the adventurer a marketable item that could fetch decent profits and by making crafting gear the best gear in game.

Boss mobs drops rare and ultra recipes, crafters buy recipes, crafters craft rare and ultra rare equipment, adventurers buy equipment, nice flowing economy.

Harvesters already have their cash cow, crafters have theirs, adventurers need something to give them a viable income solution as well, and not being able to resell your old gear to other adventurers is not the solution.

Aye I understand where you're coming from. I certainly don't have the answer. Personally however, I see BoP items as being far more game-breaking than BoE items. After all, it is the players' choice whether to effectively 'remove' the item from the player market simply by wearing it. Nothing is stopping them selling it on if they so choose. Which is where making cash as an adventurer should stem from.

Unless in VG BoE means BoP as well, in which case ignore the above ;)

edit: when I refer to adventurer loot stemming from item drops, i'm referring more about the grind which more often than not offers the adventurer what they really need. For me personally, i'd have no idea what recipe was worth what, but i'd know exactly how much a piece of armour would be worth. Hope that clarified it :)

[ekre]

no way, boe is bs, what we need is a working decay system (ala pre-cu swg, it had the best economy, just FYI its broke when the new bind system and the anti decay kits got in game)

[Vaernimus]

no way, boe is bs, what we need is a working decay system (ala pre-cu swg, it had the best economy, just FYI its broke when the new bind system and the anti decay kits got in game)

What about a combination? Where BoE items have decay once soulbound. non-BoE items suffer no decay as they remain in trade indefinitely.

[Zaraj]

Bind on equip is a HACK, a game artifact that SUBSTRACT from fun.

Please dont ask for more BOE.

[Multiplex]

We need the DAOC system...

1. Items have both Durability and Quality which start at 100 each.

2. As items are used the Durability slowly drops from 100 all the way down to 0.

3. As an item is repaired the Durability goes back up to 100 but as you go in for repairs each time your Quality begins to drop from 100 to 0.

4. As an item decreases in Quality the stats begin to lose some effect until the item eventually becomes useless.

[ekre]

We need the DAOC system...

1. Items have both Durability and Quality which start at 100 each.

2. As items are used the Durability slowly drops from 100 all the way down to 0.

3. As an item is repaired the Durability goes back up to 100 but as you go in for repairs each time your Quality begins to drop from 100 to 0.

4. As an item decreases in Quality the stats begin to lose some effect until the item eventually becomes useless.

yep, dnl has the same system. boe is not so good, its not a solution.
for example, at lvl50 who the hell will buy new items? no one. so crafters will lose their customers. and who the hell will buy items just for a few lvl? just a few, but most of us will not. what will happen when most players will have their huge ship? no one will buy a new one.
an equipment for lifetime is bs, it couldnt be a good economy system.

[au+]

We don't need any decay system.

We need to have the crafting and harvesting spheres removed, as well as the ability to trade items. With the economy gone, it can no longer cause problems.

(it's fun to post ideas that ruin other people's fun, I thought I'd join in)

[MoS]

We need the DAOC system...

1. Items have both Durability and Quality which start at 100 each.

2. As items are used the Durability slowly drops from 100 all the way down to 0.

3. As an item is repaired the Durability goes back up to 100 but as you go in for repairs each time your Quality begins to drop from 100 to 0.

4. As an item decreases in Quality the stats begin to lose some effect until the item eventually becomes useless.

Thats really a nice system.

[Hatto]

Thats really a nice system.
Indeed it is, but to make it work you need a game that not focuses only on gaining items. DAOC got PvP, I think SWG was similar, but what you got in VG? One chief reason is to gain items to well, efficiently gain more items. It would not work.

The other idea about the complete removal of crafting and harvesting is actually alot more apropriate to address the issues that arise in a pure PvE MMO. I don't really like BoE and BoP, but applied to ALL items its a way that is known to work.

[pablo0713]

Shade,

While I appreciate your enthusiasm towards Vanguard, I'd have to say that BoE is the wrong way to go. This is not WoW. I do not want my gear to become meaningless after I equip it. It is my gear and I should have the right to do what I please with it. If this means give it away or sell it, it should be my choice.

The two biggest things I hated about WoW was BoE and Instancing. Apart from making crafted gear BoE, if Sigil moves the game further into BoE territory, well, I just might seriously quit.

[Roland]

I'd prefer a BoE or BoP system 100% more than a decay system. I want to use the items I decide to use and not be worrying about my gear decaying.

As in all things (especially in VG heh) opinions vary on this topic.

This is mine :)

And my vote is to spread it across Crafted & Adventure drops, make it even. You'll have the turn over in items without dealing with "decay".

I hate decay...can you tell? lol

Regards,

:cool:

[tdewey10]

Only quest gear should be BoE (and it really shouldn't be BoE should be BoP). Dropped/Crafted loot should not be BoE (except if you choose to soulbind it).

[lomiller]

Well therein lies the problem, while this may help the crafter, it definitely hurts the adventurer that does not craft. We would no longer be able to sell the gear we upgraded, except to crafters, which limits our economy. And adventurers do not make much money fighting as it is.


Without an item sink like BOE or permanent item damage adventures are screwed as well. What point will there be to ever go out and kill stuff if everything that drops can be purchased for almost nothing? Without an effective and mandatory item sink this is what will eventually happen.



Boss mobs drops rare and ultra recipes, crafters buy recipes, crafters craft rare and ultra rare equipment, adventurers buy equipment, nice flowing economy.

Harvesters already have their cash cow, crafters have theirs, adventurers need something to give them a viable income solution as well, and not being able to resell your old gear to other adventurers is not the solution.

There is no such thing as an ultra rare item unless there is a mechanism to remove them from the game. Sure they start off and rare, but every drop makes them less so and eventually there are so many in the game they are considered worthless trash.

You can slow down this process but you can’t stop it without removing the items from the game somehow. If they do go the route of slowing down this natural devolution of al dropped loot into worthless trash don’t expect to get a drop that is actually worth anything very often, as the only items that retain some semblance of work will only be seen with weeks or months of regular play.

[Dibit]

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.(proposed)

I think you are missing the big picture. BoE by itself is not causing the crafted gear demand to drop - AND - making one mass general change to all adventuring gear in the economy is not going to fix the demand issue. Its the fact that crafted gear is priced to high to be worth it...there are many reasons for this: harvesting rares and decon rares are too rare so gouging and shortages are widespread; the average wealth of players who only adventure is really low; etc etc etc.

The economy needs to be balanced not "fixed". Just like class balancing, this issue will involve a combination of a few bigger changes (BoE on crafted items, stop the item and gold dupes) and some smaller tweaks (increased drop rates on all rares/ultra rares, item quality rescale) as a solution.

-Dib

[Falmarri]

I am grateful that Sigil did see the light in making crafted items which are colored BOE, but it wont work unless adventurer drop gear which is colored is also BOE.

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.

This is a point I was trying to make before when I posted all colored gear needs to be BOE.

This is what wow does and its easily understood why.

Until adventurer colored gear ("dungeon loot") is BOE, crafters gear will continue to drop in terms of demand, (hey the gear on both sides is comparable except one is BOE and one isnt), until dungeon loot which is colored is BOE.

If we want the Vanguard MMO economy to continue, and whilst Sigil are fixing the dupes and removing plat from the economy, as one of the Sigil devs has stated its their top priority, then Sigil would do well for all colored gear, where it is crafted or dungeon loot, to make these items BOE, all of them (if they are colored, ie not white)!

If there was any disparity between the player perceived value of crafted gear and dungeon loot before crafted items were made BOE, then the best way to have fixed that is to simply extend the time required to make the item, not to make one side BOE and screw the other side over.

Please make dungeon loot, ie adventurer loot, if its colored, BOE. Vanguard crafters forum has a post on crafted gear BOE and its debilitating effects on the Vanguard crafter community (when dungeon loot is not BOE).

BOE on one side only wont work, and if, when both sides gear is compared, crafters gear comes out better, then for goodness sake, increase the time required to craft the item (like 2 hours on the last stage, or something. In wow, some crafted items have a 24 hour cooldown, why not an crafted VG item that takes 3 hours to craft on the last stage (then its comparable to an adventurer sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours to get his sword of uberness)). And make all colored gear BOE!

In Summary, make adventurer "dungeon" loot which is colored, BOE.

Help restore and improve the Vanguard MMO economy.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, tweaking guide, diplomacy guide, kos chart, resource chart, crafter recipe lists, Vanguard trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)


You wanted BoE items, you live with it now.

[elorei]

I forgot to mention the BOE status would need to be altered, such that they can still be traded and deconn'd but just not worn again, thanks for pointing that out.


You not only wanna rape adventurers being able to sell their gear to other adventurers, but also make it so crafters still benefit by being able to buy cheap decons?

Too funny. "Screw everyone else, I want things that help me at their detriment" seems to be a mantra of yours. Good luck with that.

[KariTR]

I'd prefer a BoE or BoP system 100% more than a decay system. I want to use the items I decide to use and not be worrying about my gear decaying.

As in all things (especially in VG heh) opinions vary on this topic.

This is mine :)

And my vote is to spread it across Crafted & Adventure drops, make it even. You'll have the turn over in items without dealing with "decay".

I hate decay...can you tell? lol

Regards,

:cool:

For what it is worth...

/agree

[KariTR]

I'd prefer a BoE or BoP system 100% more than a decay system. I want to use the items I decide to use and not be worrying about my gear decaying.

As in all things (especially in VG heh) opinions vary on this topic.

This is mine :)

And my vote is to spread it across Crafted & Adventure drops, make it even. You'll have the turn over in items without dealing with "decay".

I hate decay...can you tell? lol

Regards,

:cool:

You not only wanna rape adventurers being able to sell their gear to other adventurers, but also make it so crafters still benefit by being able to buy cheap decons?

Too funny. "Screw everyone else, I want things that help me at their detriment" seems to be a mantra of yours. Good luck with that.

If adventurers can sell on their equipment, how exactly are they "raped?"

[elorei]

If adventurers can sell on their equipment, how exactly are they "raped?"

I can not believe you do not understand this, but I will go ahead and answer you just in case.

Good item = sell to adventurer for good price and they use it.

Bad item = sell on broker for cheap for a crafter to decon.

Make all items crafter buyable for decon only, and all items sell cheap. The stats on the item or its effectiveness are a non issue.

If you wanna make all items BOE, then no decons for crafters, you cant have it both ways.

[shamusmacgowan]

I can not believe you do not understand this, but I will go ahead and answer you just in case.

Good item = sell to adventurer for good price and they use it.

Bad item = sell on broker for cheap for a crafter to decon.

Make all items crafter buyable for decon only, and all items sell cheap. The stats on the item or its effectiveness are a non issue.

If you wanna make all items BOE, then no decons for crafters, you cant have it both ways.

Lovely in theory, but crap in reality. You can look at the exchange and see the reality right now.

Good item / Bad item means nothing right now. The correct phrasing is.

Common item in mass quantities on exchange? Sell cheap.

Rare item or only a couple on exchange? Sell expensive.

The folks that are selling looted gear do not price based on whether or not the item is worth anything. They price based on how many of that item is on the exchange and whether or not it is a rare item needed for a crafter to decon into rare resource.

Frankly right now I agree with the idea of making all crafted and looted equipment BOE, with the option of selling on the exchange for decon only purposes. SOE ruined mmorpg's for decay with what they did to SWG, so people will be against it in every game.

Now, something that should be mentioned, but I don't see anywhere in this thread, is what about the payouts in game? I'm level 22 and the quests are only paying a couple of silver now. I'm still getting less than half a silver for vendor junk off of my lvl 20 batch orders, and Diplomacy ain't much better. Adventurers might be able to afford more if they were getting more for loot and quests.

[elorei]

Lovely in theory, but crap in reality. You can look at the exchange and see the reality right now.

Good item / Bad item means nothing right now. The correct phrasing is.

Common item in mass quantities on exchange? Sell cheap.

Rare item or only a couple on exchange? Sell expensive.

The folks that are selling looted gear do not price based on whether or not the item is worth anything.

Why can i sell POA weapons for 25+g then, while I can sell a similar weapon with 30% less DPS for just 2g?

Know why they are rare on the exchange? BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD. That is right, crap items flood the market because noone wants to buy the junk. Good items sell fast, because they are .....GOOD.

[Dogbert]

The Vangard economy has made me astonished. It is as if VG was released without any world/crafting economy considerations at all.

As VG was at release every tradable item, world drop or crafted, which is not a consumable, would finally end up at the broker at a price just above its vendor buy price. It is just a matter of time.
This has already happend with a number of items. Everyone who want it has it, and new ones (from world drop or crafted) goes to vendor or broker (at vendor price level).
The only item sink is vendors and players who carry something and quit playing.
Green, blue, yellow items will all end up at the broker just above vendor buy price. Finally anyone will be able to fully equip in rares for a few silver. There will be no joy in finding a rare world drop.

Deconstructs is not a serious sink. Who will want to buy and decons 10 items, craft a new one and sell it for the price of one of the decons items aquired. Crafting will be dead.

Of course, harvested stuff will reach vendor price level also. With virtually no crafting there will be no need for mats.


No one at Sigil had spent even a minute at the economy at release. This is strange since it does not require much tinking or design effort.


By introducing BOE for crafted items (and not world drop) pretty much kills the current crafting market except for consumables and some items where there is not yet sufficient world drops. The current situation is insane when it comes to crafting. It is a bit strange that Sigil kills off something which actually makes people play VG. It is self destructive.


Making all items BOE is one way to start design work on an economy that is reasonable and balanced. There are other ways, however.

In order to attract crafters to the game there must be a point to crafting. Crafted items must be something other players want. E.g., it must be slightly better then world drop but without making crafting a money generator. Crafting income must be in parity with doing WOs, or a limitation for for certain crafting is needed. E.g., one attempt per day, or mats might need time consuming treatment before it can be used in crafting. There are many possibilities.

[Hatto]

I'm level 22 and the quests are only paying a couple of silver now.
This changes somewhat later on, the quests you can do around 35 in Beranid Hills for example reward 16s for each quest.

Just right from start the price of gear was in no relation to the income of the average adventurer, because the prices been made by (a few) crafters who been doing workorders like mad, making proportional more money and selling among themselves. Nowadays decon value makes prices, not usefulness, which is not much better.

Not saying all crafters are greedy though, always nice ones around, one just has to ignore the broker and visit the craft channel or similar.

[warakus]

I am grateful that Sigil did see the light in making crafted items which are colored BOE, but it wont work unless adventurer drop gear which is colored is also BOE.

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.

This is a point I was trying to make before when I posted all colored gear needs to be BOE.

This is what wow does and its easily understood why.

Until adventurer colored gear ("dungeon loot") is BOE, crafters gear will continue to drop in terms of demand, (hey the gear on both sides is comparable except one is BOE and one isnt), until dungeon loot which is colored is BOE.

If we want the Vanguard MMO economy to continue, and whilst Sigil are fixing the dupes and removing plat from the economy, as one of the Sigil devs has stated its their top priority, then Sigil would do well for all colored gear, where it is crafted or dungeon loot, to make these items BOE, all of them (if they are colored, ie not white)!

If there was any disparity between the player perceived value of crafted gear and dungeon loot before crafted items were made BOE, then the best way to have fixed that is to simply extend the time required to make the item, not to make one side BOE and screw the other side over.

Please make dungeon loot, ie adventurer loot, if its colored, BOE. Vanguard crafters forum has a post on crafted gear BOE and its debilitating effects on the Vanguard crafter community (when dungeon loot is not BOE).

BOE on one side only wont work, and if, when both sides gear is compared, crafters gear comes out better, then for goodness sake, increase the time required to craft the item (like 2 hours on the last stage, or something. In wow, some crafted items have a 24 hour cooldown, why not an crafted VG item that takes 3 hours to craft on the last stage (then its comparable to an adventurer sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours to get his sword of uberness)). And make all colored gear BOE!

In Summary, make adventurer "dungeon" loot which is colored, BOE.

Help restore and improve the Vanguard MMO economy.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, tweaking guide, diplomacy guide, kos chart, resource chart, crafter recipe lists, Vanguard trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)
NO! you greedy crafter, NO I say! None of us can afford your stuff now so let us not make everything unattainable eh? also the difference here is drop gear can be broke down for crafting rares..... crafted gear cannot.

[Kriptical]

/Veto BoE in its entirity. The problem before was no pure adventurer had anywhere near enough coin to think about buying good crafter gear...heh...its a bit better now..but BoE was just the wrong fix. Lame.

[Grizzlebeard]

I really think the OP sets himself a target number of nonsensical posts to make in a week. We've had his various BOE propositions to fatten crafter coffers and his trading card game.

[Gfactor]

I forgot to mention the BOE status would need to be altered, such that they can still be traded and deconn'd but just not worn again, thanks for pointing that out.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki

..

[Gfactor]

/Veto BoE in its entirity. The problem before was no pure adventurer had anywhere near enough coin to think about buying good crafter gear...heh...its a bit better now..but BoE was just the wrong fix. Lame.

*nods* thank you :) games are ment to be fun, not a superior grind then sell your great gear for copper....it doesnt feel right...ALL boe is NOT the right way to go...and i dont like boe at all too be honest...mayby *SOME* ingame gear, and almost all raid gear and thats it.

[Gfactor]

Sorry mate.....i dont wanna be rude, but i agree with this is not wow, and i would not like everything to be BOE lol.....
All boe means 0 resell, and a slower economy....why people push for this im really not sure....the arguement is well it will improve the crafting community...but now they dont sell and theres no rares to be baught in vanguard...The crafted gear economy *WASNT* broke, didnt need the fix. Anyone heard of this:if its not broke, dont fix it? The adventurer gear isnt broke, doesnt need a fix. Are people a glutton for punishment with this kind of thing? Do people like buying gear for XXX plat then selling it for copper?? The problems with the economy are from Gold selling/duping, not needfull boe....just boe aplifies the crunch on the economy and makes it WAY worse. Again i dont mean to be rude, I just dont understand in other mmos without BOE the economy is great, with BOE things go to a scorching halt with leveling, and money - because you need to get all new gear without any money that you have invested in your gear.


And i really really really like having the ability, when im done with some of my hard earned gear...to go up to somone that needs it or a friend and say hey man...take this...its free, enjoy :)

Is that so bad? or say please everyone grind your ass into the ground with all boe! just do it and enjoy it! enjoy selling all your gear for nothing, when it took you a month to save up for it. Proactive vs Reactive blah blah please evaluate your comments, or sigil/soe may hear you.[/QUOTE]

[Mustang68]

Why oh why must we quickly come to BOE as a solution for something that was not very well implemented/balanced in the game? Why must we regurgitate the SAME marketing system used in games that do not have great economies anyway (although at least crafting adventuring items was encouraged through experience gains in EQ2 and very rarely, rares were rewarded). Speaking of which, is this game going to just become another EQ2 or what? And EQ2 has the benefit of a few years of polish already.

Also, there was a reason in EQ2 for BOE on everything because crafters HAD TO MAKE adventuring items to gain experience, so the broker always had a full selection of items to choose from (the additional slots on the broker system through crates and such helps also). This was in fact a flood of items, so it made sense to limit them severely. I don't really understand what people are saying when they say they see stuff all over the broker selling for just above vendor price? What world are you playing in? All I see is a pathetic market on the broker, to be honest. I couldn't find a full set of anything there if I wanted to.

Let us take a step forward. Isn't VG suposed to be the next generation? One idea: make items decay slowly, but semi-permanently. Just make it so that CRAFTERS have to eventually be employed to fix them to return them to full condition. There are several ways to implement this (you could have decay be only repairable by crafters, or there is some "semi-permanent" decay on repairs by an NPC, and a crafter can repair to full 100%. Dizzy's idea 2 posts above is another intriguing thought - not sure I am completely won over yet by it, but these are the kinds of ideas I'd expect to see in a "next generation" game.

Or, encourage more soulbinding to take place with specfic additional positives, whether it be effects or something else. Really, BOE is such a "throw in the towel" type response to economy problems, and doesn't fix anything at the root of those problems.

[Multiplex]

They should BOE raid boss drops only. Everything else should decay.

[Jeff]

Decay? You mean like the sub numbers did the first 3 months of Vanguard's life? Bwahahahahaha

[Multiplex]

Decay? You mean like the sub numbers did the first 3 months of Vanguard's life? Bwahahahahaha

Yeah kinda.

[Ariste]

Hrm... this idea just came to me. Not sure if it's ridiculous or stupid. If it is, tell me :)

So the goal of BOE is to prevent a flooding of the market with items, correct? Because when items aren't removed from the economy everything gets devalued, right?

Well, what about a system like this:

Rather than decay or BOE, there's a system in which items become 'used.' In this system, an item would become more used every time a new player equips the item. For example, if an item was dropped from a mob, worn by the player who killed the mob, and then sold to a new player who wore it, the item would become used.

At this point I see two possibilities. Either the items lose some statistical power when they are equipped by a new player, or they simply get one step closer to being destroyed. Eventually all items would be destroyed after enough people have equipped them. Items could decay along the way or they could just get closer to being unusable.

Either way the system removes items from the economy. Unlike BOE, though, items are only unsellable after they have been worn down. Most items would be able to be sold, probably as 'used' items at a reduced price, since they're closer to being destroyed and may have reduced stats. And, unlike with decay, items retain their statistics the entire time that they are worn by a player. The decay would only occur when a new player bought the item.

So how does this sound? It achieves the goal of removing items from the economy, although admittedly at a slower rate than BOE does. Still, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Any thoughts?

[Ladon]

Nearly all Heroic and Legendary drops are BoE already along with all quest rewards. We don't need anything else to be BoE and we certainly do not need permanent item decay.

[Mustang68]

Hrm... this idea just came to me. Not sure if it's ridiculous or stupid. If it is, tell me :)

So the goal of BOE is to prevent a flooding of the market with items, correct? Because when items aren't removed from the economy everything gets devalued, right?

Well, what about a system like this:

Rather than decay or BOE, there's a system in which items become 'used.' In this system, an item would become more used every time a new player equips the item. For example, if an item was dropped from a mob, worn by the player who killed the mob, and then sold to a new player who wore it, the item would become used.

At this point I see two possibilities. Either the items lose some statistical power when they are equipped by a new player, or they simply get one step closer to being destroyed. Eventually all items would be destroyed after enough people have equipped them. Items could decay along the way or they could just get closer to being unusable.

Either way the system removes items from the economy. Unlike BOE, though, items are only unsellable after they have been worn down. Most items would be able to be sold, probably as 'used' items at a reduced price, since they're closer to being destroyed and may have reduced stats. And, unlike with decay, items retain their statistics the entire time that they are worn by a player. The decay would only occur when a new player bought the item.

So how does this sound? It achieves the goal of removing items from the economy, although admittedly at a slower rate than BOE does. Still, it seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Any thoughts?

I think that sounds like a decent alternative to BOE!

[Tem]

Just give people incentive to bind their own gear. I would glady bind my better items if it gave them a slight increase in power, made them decay more slowly, stuff like that. Then up the amount that bad items sell to vendors for. Adventurers need a better way to make money. If we had more then we'd pay more for crafted items. I don't buy them because I can't afford them. I'm lucky if I make 50 or 60 silver in a level of grinding/questing; I don't have the cash to go around spending 2 and 3g for a crafted item.

[david99]

No Thanks.

[Shade Maelstorm]

We need the DAOC system...

1. Items have both Durability and Quality which start at 100 each.

2. As items are used the Durability slowly drops from 100 all the way down to 0.

3. As an item is repaired the Durability goes back up to 100 but as you go in for repairs each time your Quality begins to drop from 100 to 0.

4. As an item decreases in Quality the stats begin to lose some effect until the item eventually becomes useless.

This is a good idea,

Sigil1, make it so!

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, crafting guide, Vanguard Trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are trading Cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)

[Shade Maelstorm]

You wanted BoE items, you live with it now.

Duh! I wanted all colored items BOE, but Sigil only did half of them.

Im fine to live with it, provided all colored items, non white, are BOE, then it evens itself out. (once crafting times are increased)

Okay, Ive read all the posts, some good feedback offerred. It looks like we need perm-decay AND boe for dungeon loot. Its generally agreed that SOE (or lucas arts) screwed up with removing decay, and the good thing is some people here can see the reason why decay and BOE need to be in the game. YAY.

DOAC's sytem sounds good, this is what I was proposing before when talking about decay. Nice system.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki

[Miff]

IDEA: All equips should automatically deconstruct if the durability of the item reaches 0%.

Similarly, equips should lose durability over time (I think they're meant to, but I only ever see equips at 67%, 33% or 1% after I die a few times).

This would mean that both adventuring items and crafted items would be "removed" from the economy without making them worthless via BOE.
It would also create more "work" for crafters to recreate equips that have fallen apart, and would increase the availability of materials.

[au+]

Why would I play a game where all my archievements decay over time?
I'm glad SOME people in this thread aren't game designers.

[Falmarri]

Duh! I wanted all colored items BOE, but Sigil only did half of them.

You wanted them all, we wanted none. We split the difference. You just don't want to compromise. Now you can't sell your gear and you're blaming dropped loot not being BoE. Maybe if crafted gear wasn't a billion plat it would be different.

[Andok]

I am totally against BoE or BoP items. I have always thought that it was a very silly thing to have in any game.

Player 1- Cool sword you have there, where can I get one?
Player 2- I can sell you this one for XX gold.
Player 1- Awesome, lets trade.
Player 2- Hmm, thats odd for some reason I can not let go of my sword, like its attached to me or something.
Player 1- WTF?
player 2- Dude, I dont get it, I want to sell this sword, but I can't.
Player 1- Lame....


Point is BoE, BoP is just not realistic in any way shape or form. If I find anything, I should be able to sell it, or trade it.

Binding equipment is totally lame, I have never understood it, nor will I.

Point is, I am not sure there is a reasonable solution to this problem. Item decay would make crafters happy, but once again it is the adventurer that pays and loses out.

I suppose the only real way would be to make crafted items the best in game, and all recipes and ultra rare mats be dropped from mobs, so now everyone has a cash cow.

Harvesters harvest common and rare mats to sell to crafters, Adventurers get recipes and ultra rare mat drops, crafters buy from those two spheres to make the best adventuring and harvesting gear to sell back to the other two spheres. Dunno, but seems the most logical way of making everyone happy.

[Hatto]

Binding equipment is totally lame, I have never understood it, nor will I.
It most certainly is, but the problem is that there is no balance in VG regarding items whatsoever. People constantly 'create' items by means of crafting and adventuring (loot drops kinda create items aswell in this context). The items are never ever destroyed.

You need either BoE/BoP or item quality loss to address this. I personally prefer quality loss, but then you need a game environment that's not about collecting loot primarily, i.e. PvP and/or RvR.

There is of course another way to kinda balance this, but then you need to make any good stuff so rare that its really rare. But people would not like this either. And it would kinda ruin crafting aswell because you'd have to give crafters rare and ultra rare once at full moon.

What I do not understand is why they make crafted gear BoE and kinda ruin the market for it while leaving drops as they are. Its plain unfair.

If you want to see a working example of tradeable items/loot, look at EVE Online. They have a very good working market, alot better than all other MMO, and it is because everything you can build can and _will_ be destroyed. Sometimes stuff 200 people worked a month for. But as those 200 people have the chance to do the same ot their enemies its an accepted part of the game. EVE is full flavored PvP though, which makes it quite different.

[ekre]

Why would I play a game where all my archievements decay over time?
I'm glad SOME people in this thread aren't game designers.

it seems vg or wow is your first mmo. btw im a lead designer of the Darjani Pre-CU, ah and ofc we dont bothering the original decay system, it was as good as it was ;)
boe is bs for long time, you will see later (when most players will be lvl 50)

[Aikar]

Perfect way to ruin the games yay!


BoE made alot of crafters and adventurers quit, so now you want to make another large portion of people quit too? lol..

Say no to BOE.

[SStKelley]

When they figure the points to allocate stats on an item they need to make BOE status add about 10 more points to the item, since it is DEFINATELY a big negative to the people thinking of buying it.

[Andok]

Although many do not agree, I still think that a game would do very well if they could totally eliminate currency from it. In ancient times, people bartered for goods, you wanted grains, you brought livestock, you wanted weapons, you traded resources. If a game could implement a no currency system where the players truly created the economy via bartering, then you eliminate the gold sellers and gold farmers.

Now before you say well then something else would just become the "currency" of the game, this is not true. If Iron for example was considered valuable, then people would farm more of it, and eventually as supply exceeded demand, something else would become valuable.

Imagine a game where adventurers bartered enough resources to make two of those sweet leet swords, for a crafter to give him one in return and to keep the extra one to barter to someone else. Or imagine the harvester bartering rare resources for better harvesting gear, or even to a group of adventurers to clear a resource rich area so that he could stake his claim.

The possibilities are endless, and one day I imagine someone will create a robust economic system that has every sphere, every class dependent upon others to barter in order to progress.

[Safire]

Shade,
Would you please make a few more over sensationalized posts? I think the sky might be falling, run outside and check real quik then come back and make 6 or 12 new posts with crazy ideas of how we can prevent it ummmkay?

Why don't we just make all classes identical until they balance them, or maybe just give all arcane casters the same exact spells so no one is more powerful than anyone else.

:rolleyes:

Do you have OCD?

[au+]

it seems vg or wow is your first mmo. btw im a lead designer of the Darjani Pre-CU, ah and ofc we dont bothering the original decay system, it was as good as it was ;)
boe is bs for long time, you will see later (when most players will be lvl 50)

I've been playing MMOs for years, actually. Haven't played WoW. None of the ones I played have item decay. The economy in all of them is just fine.
But these tend to have much less crafted stuff. This is also a solution to this problem - make crafted items rare. The crafters think it's a problem in Vanguard? I say solve the problem on the crafter side, don't piss off adventurers.

I enjoy the kind of game where you can collect rare stuff. If those things decay, well, game over for me.

[Shade Maelstorm]

You wanted them all, we wanted none. We split the difference. You just don't want to compromise. Now you can't sell your gear and you're blaming dropped loot not being BoE. Maybe if crafted gear wasn't a billion plat it would be different.

Stop trying to use the word 'we' to sound more authoritative, cause its not working.

Some ppl do want decay and boe, thus your arguements are full of holes.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki

[au+]

Speaking of arguments full of holes, what did you plan for all the extra money that would go from adventurers to crafters with your silly decay ideas?

Yeah, indeed. You get filthy rich.

[Bottle]

It's a real shame that the effect of BOE on crafted items has had on the economy can't really be properly evaluated yet. The Gold Duping that escalated right after the BOE was patched in, clouds any measurement we or the devs can make on it. Any "economy fixing" patch is overshadowed by the influx of duped Gold and Items.

In addition, I am well aware that since I don't have the 'big picture' on the Broker and am more likely to see the items that don't sell rather than the ones that do sell my view on that market is hampered. But what I've seen is that I couldn't afford any interesting crafted gear on the broker before or after BOE bind. From my, admittedly limited perspective, nothing much has changed for me, underpaid adventurer who doesn't want to grind 10 hours a day that I am.

If I were to have to choose between BOE and Decay, I would definitely go with some form of Decay. It's more believable. Someone already put in anecdote, the unbelievability of BOE. Decay of items, being something that happens in real life, is much more believable. The argument of "I don't want my achievements to decay" holds little water for me. Achievements, and the joy that comes from them is transitory to begin with. What remains is bragging rights.

Economies thrive when the spice, eh I mean currency, flows.
Due to the flawed-to-begin-with concept of Item Drops, you either end up with a wealth base that keeps growing ad nauseum, or wealth needs to be taken out of the system at more or less the same rate. BOE doesn't really do that. It takes wealth out of the system, true. It also hampers the flow of currency as it (appears to) result in less trading.
Decay rate, with or without further cash-flow through repairs would both take out wealth and stimulate the flow of currency I think.

Personally I think Sigil would do well to allow way more looks only customization to armor, or at least the ability to dye armor as a money sink.

[Hatto]

BOE doesn't really do that. It takes wealth out of the system, true. It also hampers the flow of currency as it (appears to) result in less trading.
My experience is different. And quite unrelated to BoE in fact. There was never really any interesting non rare crafted gear on the broker on Gelenia. I tried to obtain some with my ranger and ended up on craft channel, which was great. I met a nice crafter and ended up with getting a bunch of non rare stuff of the next tier I could already use for less than a gold. Which was less than a _single_ rare item was priced on the broker.

Broker = Place to get overpriced items.

Bottom line, market did not really work so it can't get screwed by BoE.

[kildest]

I am grateful that Sigil did see the light in making crafted items which are colored BOE, but it wont work unless adventurer drop gear which is colored is also BOE.

Atm, demand for crafted gear is dropping because crafted gear is BOE and cannot be resold once worn. However adventurer dropped loot (referred to for sanity sake as "dungeon loot") can be resold and so dungeon loot is the logical gear type to be bought.

This is a point I was trying to make before when I posted all colored gear needs to be BOE.

This is what wow does and its easily understood why.

Until adventurer colored gear ("dungeon loot") is BOE, crafters gear will continue to drop in terms of demand, (hey the gear on both sides is comparable except one is BOE and one isnt), until dungeon loot which is colored is BOE.

If we want the Vanguard MMO economy to continue, and whilst Sigil are fixing the dupes and removing plat from the economy, as one of the Sigil devs has stated its their top priority, then Sigil would do well for all colored gear, where it is crafted or dungeon loot, to make these items BOE, all of them (if they are colored, ie not white)!

If there was any disparity between the player perceived value of crafted gear and dungeon loot before crafted items were made BOE, then the best way to have fixed that is to simply extend the time required to make the item, not to make one side BOE and screw the other side over.

Please make dungeon loot, ie adventurer loot, if its colored, BOE. Vanguard crafters forum has a post on crafted gear BOE and its debilitating effects on the Vanguard crafter community (when dungeon loot is not BOE).

BOE on one side only wont work, and if, when both sides gear is compared, crafters gear comes out better, then for goodness sake, increase the time required to craft the item (like 2 hours on the last stage, or something. In wow, some crafted items have a 24 hour cooldown, why not an crafted VG item that takes 3 hours to craft on the last stage (then its comparable to an adventurer sitting in a dungeon for 3 hours to get his sword of uberness)). And make all colored gear BOE!

In Summary, make adventurer "dungeon" loot which is colored, BOE.

Help restore and improve the Vanguard MMO economy.

Cheers

Shade Maelstorm / Mael / Tharridon server
Vanboi for life!
http://www.vgoracle.com vg wiki, harvesting guide, newbie guide, tweaking guide, diplomacy guide, kos chart, resource chart, crafter recipe lists, Vanguard trading card game http://www.vgoracle.com/index.php?title=Trading_Card_Game, check it out!

Attached are cards from the Vanguard Trading Card Game (proposed)

Let's get rid of repair costs too, and death penalties. They also have negative impacts on the adventurer, and really it's only fair that if we're appeasing the crafters with BOE, then us adventurers should also be given something F*ckig ridiculous. Also, I think everyone should start with 10Plat, this way we can just buy everything we want from the beginning. And we should start at lvl 50 because it's just a time sink between 1-49.
In closing, your idea sucks more than Heidi Fleiss on a Two for One Tuesday outside of a Viagra convention. Yay for disease!

[Andok]

In closing, your idea sucks more than Heidi Fleiss on a Two for One Tuesday outside of a Viagra convention. Yay for disease!


:D :D :D

[Gecon]

Let's get rid of repair costs too, and death penalties. [...] I WANT THE "I WIN" BUTTON !!! SIGIL DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT !!! :D

[au+]

If I were to have to choose between BOE and Decay, I would definitely go with some form of Decay. It's more believable. Someone already put in anecdote, the unbelievability of BOE. Decay of items, being something that happens in real life, is much more believable. The argument of "I don't want my achievements to decay" holds little water for me. Achievements, and the joy that comes from them is transitory to begin with. What remains is bragging rights.

Believability, in a game where we summon fully grown horses out of thin air (and stick them in our backpacks when done), where 100 copper coins magically turn into a silver coin, and trees instantly grow back to full size minutes after they've been chopped down. A world where I have no need of sleep. A world where the people are made of plastic, who can sense when mail has arrived but still have to travel to a mailbox to read it. Yeah.

Priority #1 when designing a game should be fun, not believability.

By the way, a real life sword, or leather tunic, would take many, many years to decay, and can be repaired if broken for a very long time. It's not all that believable how fast my in-game gear currently breaks down and needs repairs. Or how I need to 'repair' my clothes rather than washing them. Item decay at the rate which people here suggest, would be very far from believable.

Then there's other problems that I hinted at earlier; namely how adventurers are going to have to keep coming back to crafters, who get more and more rich while adventurers remain poor. Other changes would be needed, like making crafting components only drop from monsters, and not from deconstruction or work orders.

[Bottle]

Believability, in a game where we summon fully grown horses out of thin air (and stick them in our backpacks when done), where 100 copper coins magically turn into a silver coin, and trees instantly grow back to full size minutes after they've been chopped down. A world where I have no need of sleep. A world where the people are made of plastic, who can sense when mail has arrived but still have to travel to a mailbox to read it. Yeah.

Priority #1 when designing a game should be fun, not believability.


You're using the "Realism" argument on a "Believability" point. Believability in MMORPG terms is the ability to dispense disbelieve. Any MMORPG is always Smoke and Mirrors. You're arguing that things aren't realistic, which is besides the point in any Fantasy game.

I am fully capable of dispensing disbelieve on many of the things you mention, especially the mail and repair or washing bits. My character frequently sleeps even. Try the beds at Bendon's Bead & Breakfast sometime. Avoid the eggs for breakfast though. Way too runny. (The game still has RPG in it, so I feel endorsed to use Roleplaying even if the game system doesn't do shit for that part of the game) Where I can't dispense disbelieve, I tend to accept them as a required mechanic (a clutch really) and / or work around them. For instance, I can't "believe" the grinding of hundreds of monsters will teach me anything except being a homicidal murderer, so I do not grind but work around that.

Decay falls under Believability (for me). BOE falls under (barely) acceptable clutch. So "If I were to have to choose...."

"Priority #1 when designing a game should be fun, not believability."

I fully agree with this. I just miss how it applies to my argument which was prefaced with "If I were to have to choose" This implies that that station of "Fun" is already behind us. I.e. My first wish is indeed for fun, second for believable mechanics, third for gimp clutches like BOE. So unless you can convince me that BOE is actually fun I stand with my point.

My experiences so far are that any economy fix tends to be fun breaking rather than enhancing. We ARE discussing an economy fix are we? Not a 'real' gameplay feature. Economies in MMOGs tend to be Big Business, not fun.

P.s. I don't see adventurers going to crafters as an insurmountable problem.
Frankly you can do several things about it.
A) Not do it. (No decay-repair.)
B) NPC/fixed price repair.
C) Let supply & demand sort it out.

[Gfactor]

Why oh why must we quickly come to BOE as a solution for something that was not very well implemented/balanced in the game? Why must we regurgitate the SAME marketing system used in games that do not have great economies anyway (although at least crafting adventuring items was encouraged through experience gains in EQ2 and very rarely, rares were rewarded). Speaking of which, is this game going to just become another EQ2 or what? And EQ2 has the benefit of a few years of polish already.

Also, there was a reason in EQ2 for BOE on everything because crafters HAD TO MAKE adventuring items to gain experience, so the broker always had a full selection of items to choose from (the additional slots on the broker system through crates and such helps also). This was in fact a flood of items, so it made sense to limit them severely. I don't really understand what people are saying when they say they see stuff all over the broker selling for just above vendor price? What world are you playing in? All I see is a pathetic market on the broker, to be honest. I couldn't find a full set of anything there if I wanted to.

Let us take a step forward. Isn't VG suposed to be the next generation? One idea: make items decay slowly, but semi-permanently. Just make it so that CRAFTERS have to eventually be employed to fix them to return them to full condition. There are several ways to implement this (you could have decay be only repairable by crafters, or there is some "semi-permanent" decay on repairs by an NPC, and a crafter can repair to full 100%. Dizzy's idea 2 posts above is another intriguing thought - not sure I am completely won over yet by it, but these are the kinds of ideas I'd expect to see in a "next generation" game.

Or, encourage more soulbinding to take place with specfic additional positives, whether it be effects or something else. Really, BOE is such a "throw in the towel" type response to economy problems, and doesn't fix anything at the root of those problems.

Mustang...heres the problem friend....you are actually thinking threw the outcome lol You have excellentl thought out reasoning and explanation.

DId sigil? Not too fix the problems they said they were. Sorry guys its true. If you rooting and tooting for all BOE you are glutton for punishment when there are dupe bugs and plat selling going on. End of story im sorry its true guys.

So why did sigil really do it? why are the player bases actually dropping MORE now with there next moves? Here is a possiblity:

Sigil has player bases droping...They think....how do we keep them playing? The ones we have? BOE slows people way down from leveling, because of money losses without return. Unless you like to play in all noob crap, you gotta raise money again for next tear equipment and you broke from selling your old stuff, and this takes them more time. And there you have it...
Now heres reality: Everybody just keeps leaving because its a game, and its not fun lol

Now for a real kicker....Im still wondering why sigil hired somone from game exchange (plat selling, powerleveling,gear selling) as one of there management members....not affiliated with VG,sigil, or SOE at all.(was it IGE?)......was that ever adressed? One of there management memebers? DOnt they hate that sort of thing? isnt that *ILLEGAL* to do unless it was supported by SOE or sigil at least? or was it some bs thing about they wanted overseas relations LOL....umm with farmers and gold sellers?
Again....doesnt make sense, and it wont. They hired the enemy lol ooo wait.....was he really good at selling gold? that how he got the job? WTF

They are hurting for moneys...Ive been there before personally, and thats tough...but heres the thing....You gotta take the *RIGHT* steps to fix current problems, or they get worse.

Sigil is going to dump the game on SOE now....watch...it is a logical step for them,then soe is going to say *this our baby now, disregard what has been heppining, and let us fix it*

aside from the bugs & busted economy the game itself is fantastic and incredible. Sigil/soe whoever save this game, fix it, dont nerf the players, give us what you promised us....and let the players play :)

I

[Gfactor]

Why oh why must we quickly come to BOE as a solution for something that was not very well implemented/balanced in the game? Why must we regurgitate the SAME marketing system used in games that do not have great economies anyway (although at least crafting adventuring items was encouraged through experience gains in EQ2 and very rarely, rares were rewarded). Speaking of which, is this game going to just become another EQ2 or what? And EQ2 has the benefit of a few years of polish already.

Also, there was a reason in EQ2 for BOE on everything because crafters HAD TO MAKE adventuring items to gain experience, so the broker always had a full selection of items to choose from (the additional slots on the broker system through crates and such helps also). This was in fact a flood of items, so it made sense to limit them severely. I don't really understand what people are saying when they say they see stuff all over the broker selling for just above vendor price? What world are you playing in? All I see is a pathetic market on the broker, to be honest. I couldn't find a full set of anything there if I wanted to.

Let us take a step forward. Isn't VG suposed to be the next generation? One idea: make items decay slowly, but semi-permanently. Just make it so that CRAFTERS have to eventually be employed to fix them to return them to full condition. There are several ways to implement this (you could have decay be only repairable by crafters, or there is some "semi-permanent" decay on repairs by an NPC, and a crafter can repair to full 100%. Dizzy's idea 2 posts above is another intriguing thought - not sure I am completely won over yet by it, but these are the kinds of ideas I'd expect to see in a "next generation" game.

Or, encourage more soulbinding to take place with specfic additional positives, whether it be effects or something else. Really, BOE is such a "throw in the towel" type response to economy problems, and doesn't fix anything at the root of those problems.


again sorry, but ^^^^^^ is logical. It would make game play much better. The way he explains decay sounds much better. Yet sigil hires somone from IGE to help with there problems? A freaking gold seller? Are they even listening to the player bases or are they *above that?*
Vets from mmos are posting there assess off on the problems with the game, and they are doing....what?

[rhagz]

again sorry, but ^^^^^^ is logical. It would make game play much better. The way he explains decay sounds much better. Yet sigil hires somone from IGE to help with there problems? A freaking gold seller? Are they even listening to the player bases or are they *above that?*
Vets from mmos are posting there assess off on the problems with the game, and they are doing....what?

Sigil didn't hire anyone from IGE.

[Gfactor]

Sigil didn't hire anyone from IGE.

Okies! sorry if bad info I may stand corrected on IGE thing....Mayby it was just rumor/or bad info. Didnt sigil hire somone that was from a gold selling agency tho? if not they do get some respect back from me ;)

[Bottle]

Okies! sorry if bad info I may stand corrected on IGE thing....Mayby it was just rumor/or bad info. Didnt sigil hire somone that was from a gold selling agency tho? if not they do get some respect back from me ;)

I think you got your companies mixed up there:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/70546-Everything-Is-For-Sale-SOE-Hires-IGE-Exec

Lum the Mad says hi from The Escapist.

[lomiller]

Okies! sorry if bad info I may stand corrected on IGE thing....Mayby it was just rumor/or bad info. Didnt sigil hire somone that was from a gold selling agency tho? if not they do get some respect back from me ;)


SOE did. They are playing around with non subscription business models in some of their upcomming games, which is probably where this guy will fit in. I very much doubt he will be anywhere near the subscription based games.

[khronicle]

Decay is stupid.

Ok, not stupid, decay is insanely retarded. Those who support it can not have played a game like VG before for any extensive period of time.

Why fight to raid high end mobs and gain powerful gear if it is going to decay? I'm not going to get 3 of each piece of gear just because I have to replace it every month.

BoE does not hurt anyone. Crafted items are some of the best items in game and making them BoE prevents the market from being saturated with them. I've purchased crafted gear since it has been flagged BoE without hesitation. It helps the average crafter more than it hurts them. People will still buy them. They always will. In the long run, this has helped the crafting community, even if some people are too bull-headed to think into the future a bit.

No Drop items or BoP to you WoW players, is a very good thing. It keeps people from getting gear they didn't work for. No, saving 10pp and buying the best bp in the game is NOT the same work as coordinating a raid to take down the most difficult encounters to get the best gear in the game. It also prevents guilds from stockpiling armor to fully suit up new members. It makes people gear up in a difficult manner. Why does everyone want to make all of this so easy? Work for it.

[ekre]

Decay is stupid.

Ok, not stupid, decay is insanely retarded. Those who support it can not have played a game like VG before for any extensive period of time.

Why fight to raid high end mobs and gain powerful gear if it is going to decay? I'm not going to get 3 of each piece of gear just because I have to replace it every month.

BoE does not hurt anyone. Crafted items are some of the best items in game and making them BoE prevents the market from being saturated with them. I've purchased crafted gear since it has been flagged BoE without hesitation. It helps the average crafter more than it hurts them. People will still buy them. They always will. In the long run, this has helped the crafting community, even if some people are too bull-headed to think into the future a bit.

No Drop items or BoP to you WoW players, is a very good thing. It keeps people from getting gear they didn't work for. No, saving 10pp and buying the best bp in the game is NOT the same work as coordinating a raid to take down the most difficult encounters to get the best gear in the game. It also prevents guilds from stockpiling armor to fully suit up new members. It makes people gear up in a difficult manner. Why does everyone want to make all of this so easy? Work for it.


lol just read the first lines. played swg for 3 years, played with daoc for around 2 years and so on (played wow for around 10 mins :D). in those games the economy sphere was so good, with the decay system. and fyi in swg, the economy got broken when they add that bind bullshit and those anti decay kits.

just a few questions. will you buy new gears at lvl 50? no i guess (just if you will find a better one). are you really buying items for x amount of gold just for 5-10 lvls? may i call you a duper? :D as a full adventurer im only able to buy 1 piece of armor (a decent one) and im at 0 money. hell, ill never buy any crafted gears, just at lvl 50, and for a looong loooong time (maybe for lifetime? :D) bullshit

[Vaernimus]

Personally I just think that once an item has been used, it becomes second hand and takes a durability hit once you place it on the market. So its maybe 70-80% effective. No decay, just a fixed durability cap.

[Andok]

No Drop items or BoP to you WoW players, is a very good thing. It keeps people from getting gear they didn't work for. No, saving 10pp and buying the best bp in the game is NOT the same work as coordinating a raid to take down the most difficult encounters to get the best gear in the game. It also prevents guilds from stockpiling armor to fully suit up new members. It makes people gear up in a difficult manner. Why does everyone want to make all of this so easy? Work for it.


BoP, No Drop, BoE is ridiculous to me as an adventurer. I bought a new car a couple years ago, I would like to give this car to my son when he gets his license, oh wait, I can't it's no drop.

I looted a great sword from a raid mob, I would like to give it to a guildee one day when I get a better one, oh wait, I can't its no drop.

I upgraded my boots and have these amazing boots I use to wear, I would like to sell them to finance my adventuring (Repairs) oh wait, I can't, for some reason these boots love me and won't let me sell them.

Here's an idea, instead of BoP, No Drop, No trade, BoE, item decay from using it is changed to item transfer durability.

I loot item A, it is a 3 on trade decay. That means it can be traded 3 times before it become untradeable, the logic behind it (Lore if you will) is that items would then have resellability but only limited.

I would be willing to make this as a concession to No Drop items. Everytime an item is sold, traded, mailed to someone, it loses one of its trade grades. So I loot item A with the trade decay of 3, I sell it on broker, it now becomes trade decay 2, they mail it to their alt and it become trade decay 1. The alt decides to sell it on the broker a year later and whoever buys it will know that it is now non-tradeable or nonsellable.


I personally hate and dont understand BoE, BoP and No Drop, never have, but some form of trade-off would be acceptable to me as an adventurer that makes a fair share of his income from selling looted items. This offers me the opportunity to loot something or quest for something that I could resell in order to compete with harvesters or crafters for income.

This is just an idea, anyone with more input for discussion is welcome to add to it.


No Drop, BoP items do not add anything to the economy.

But then again, what do I know, I am also a fan of not seeing stats on items you loot, but would rather see people using looted items to discover their stats in time as they become more proficient with looted items.

[Gfactor]

I think you got your companies mixed up there:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/70546-Everything-Is-For-Sale-SOE-Hires-IGE-Exec

Lum the Mad says hi from The Escapist.
Thank you soo much! Very helpfull

[Gfactor]

lol just read the first lines. played swg for 3 years, played with daoc for around 2 years and so on (played wow for around 10 mins :D). in those games the economy sphere was so good, with the decay system. and fyi in swg, the economy got broken when they add that bind bullshit and those anti decay kits.

just a few questions. will you buy new gears at lvl 50? no i guess (just if you will find a better one). are you really buying items for x amount of gold just for 5-10 lvls? may i call you a duper? :D as a full adventurer im only able to buy 1 piece of armor (a decent one) and im at 0 money. hell, ill never buy any crafted gears, just at lvl 50, and for a looong loooong time (maybe for lifetime? :D) bullshit

hehehe i dont like decay either, unless very well implemented. I dont like BOE either thos.....However i do make that exception with raid gear. Im firm believer in BOE raid gear or most of it.....and perhaps a few of the awsome rare item drops in the game. Other than raid drops, and some of the best non-raid drops in the game...i wish they were tradable :)