Classes that needs a nerf and classes that need an increase...

[WarZephyr]

Alright we all know how ****ed up the balance is with pvp.

So now that were past that, lets try and make some good balancing ideas that if enough ppl hear about, the word will be spread around.

copy and paste this into your post or just type it , wont be that long. First tell us about the overpowered classes (it doesnt have to be in my order if you dont think some of those classes belong in that category), then tell us what you would do to make them equal to the other classes in the game, but still maintaning their class specific perks.

Lets start with the overpowered classes...

Cleric: "what you think needs to be fixed"

Sorcerer: ""

Necro: ""

Druid: ""

Bird Shaman: ""

Bloodmage: ""



Now the just regular classes, not to bad but not to good...

Psionist: "what you think needs to be fixed"

Dread Knight: ""

Shaman: ""

Rogue: ""

Paladin: ""

Ranger: ""



Now for the nerfed, underpowered, suck ass...

Bard: "what you think needs to be fixed"

Warrior: ""

Monk: ""

Disciple (not sure if they belong here, only fought like 2 of them) : ""



I would like you to look at the nerfed classes especially because, hell if they just made the underpowered classes overpowered that might fix it, hehe.

Cheers

[whiteweazel21]

Well for starters you could put DKs, Shaman, and especially Rangers in the OP category.

[WarZephyr]

oops forgot to put slash after bird shaman.

i guess i could agree with you about dk, but rangers i think are not as good as sorc but not as shitty as monks...

[warakus]

Well for starters you could put DKs, Shaman, and especially Rangers in the OP category.

Ummm no lets not... I die all the time to other classes... Sorry but DK is not overpowered unless you are just awefull at pvp.

[Founder Apache]

**NERFING IS A VERY LAZY WAY TO FIX SOMETHING - i.e., THIS ISN'T WORKING, INSTEAD OF BEING CREATIVE, LET's DIMINISH AN ABILITY...lazyness. That being said - here goes:


Cleric: "This is the first time a healer in full plate in an mmorpg has been given his due - so many players in games have taken the hit for the team to play a healer while everyone else gets to go kick butt - these are the guys that have to keep entire groups up - don't be lazy and nerf them - up the other folks instead.


Sorcerer: ""Easy as boiling beans in a kettle to 2 shot these guys - you just need to realize that while they are glass cannons, they are still cannons nonetheless. I am sure you could argue that the use of cannon at the end of the medieval era (France v England for example) was an overpowered answer to the English longbow. Cannon were easily disposed of - with its defenders owned by a successful cavalry charge...if not hampered with they were devastating - as the sorcerer should be. He is the prime nuking class of the game - make it so and realize this is a dude in a dress with an AK-47 and a bag of hand grenades. In my opinion, drastically reduce their energy costs and resist rates. Up their counterspell abilities it should be hard to out cast a sorc face to face.

Necro: Shadow Only for obvious reasons. ""Every mmo has a utility solo class that gets few groups end game as a consequence of this ability. Enter the necro. If folks in the entry level morpg learned to try to battle warlocks with in game fear...and brutal pets, then we can do it too. Again I will reiterate that the entry level mmorpg WoW taught us that a pet class is very powerful - in Dark Age of Camelot a high pvp ranked (realm rank) bonedancer (kind of like a necro) could beat the crud out of most anyone.

That being said, improve fear to work on players so that the necro has a tool for when players fingure out his pet needs to go immediately - yes I know - omg, how dare we improve this class - learn to improve your skills and work as a team. Now the necro not only can hurt you hard with his low hit point pet while you are dotted and slowed to a crawl, he can fear you as well... however here's the catch... damage breaks fear - get what I'm saying? It's still a nice mechanism and no reason the game can't adjust.

Real pvp is a team mechanic - not an egocentrical "pwnzering" of noobs at Temple of Dailuk. On our behalf, Sigil never gave us squat to fight over other than ego - but we could try a tad harder to force Sigil to wake up and give us more developed pvp couldn't we? We can immprove the classes instead of destroying them and watcing subscriptions fall even lower.

Druid: Order only - while more neutral in alignment, these are not evil people - evil and nature do not coincide - even a destructive volcano has a purpose in the eyes of Mother Earth ""Remove starfall as a long timered nuke due to building up various points in a specific ability (virtue for paladin, phenomena for druids etc) and turn this into a graphically dazzling regular nuke that makes the druid more unique then his arcane counter parts. That tiny fluff cloud is silly as well fix that please and give lightening a more dazzling effect period. As a point, I say remove these infamous VG highly timered abilities that blow balance out of proportion. Give us skills we use on a regular basis so that we can learn them as part of our class. Same goes with paladin - or do what Sigil did and just nerf it into a button function? Get rid of this stuff it's just silly.Give the druid a permanent pet option - and let them melee as an animal - that's what druids do right? Sigil could have oodles of creative fun with this class - think of the potential. Oh look it's a wolf - well what is it? I don't know it's a shaman or druid - is it white? No it's black... oh dang ... yeah who knows. [Lazy Development Alert]. FInally get rid of the tap root timer .. c'mon, they already have to be out of combat. Give them rez at level 40. I think if a necro, as a specialist of the undead, can bring the dead into life....a druid, who's entire existance is based on her communion with all things natural - should be able to do the same. This is also nice for a druid to have a shot at competing for a slot against say a sorc...

Unlike the shaman who I believe should totally trade casting for dps (including heals yes) while in animal form, the druid is attuned with nature in an arcane way - the druid is a stormcalling class...the druid therefore, should have the option to shift into (a) a flying form if even for short periods of time at low levels etc [eagle etc] (b) a travel form - the wolf works fine but no casting kiting bs - that is just sillyness (c) an arcane casting form like a treant or such (trying to relate to what's already implemented) (d) a dps melee form such as a werewolf would be really neat with limited casting ability...

Bird Shaman: ""Kill their pet and you are up against a week nuking even weaker dotting class who, if dps'd enough, will spend most of their time and mana healing that dps off (wards are still not that impressive), then finally dying. MMORPGS have taught us to kill the caster to take out the pet - I daresay waste the pet and attempt the caster - **Again, like the cleric, healing classes have it good here. Get a group and out pvp the other group -don't spend too much time worrying about what 1 vs 1 can do. It should be what my group vs your group can do. A good hyatet shaman can pvp well against most classes let them have that - ensure that their mana regen layers with a psionicists and bards. I've scrapped with a bajillion of these guys at various levels and on various classes - don't be so impressed - it's the player more than the class that makes the Hyatet (bird) shaman so effective in pvp.

Bloodmage: ""Should have the lowest mitigation of the healing classes - while increasing their nukes. A sorc of healers so to speak.

Now the just regular classes, not to bad but not to good...

Psionist: "what you think needs to be fixed" Give them a very viable life tap and give them multiple pet choices ; tanking, dps, dot pet, etc. Make this class fun.

Dread Knight: Shadow only class - sorry but we Order has pally - let's takes this up a notch - shadow gets dreadknights...""Lower resist rates big time vs these bad boy's abilities. Other than that it's a hard call - I think they are excellent.

Shaman: **NOTE: while in Tuurgin or Rakuur animal form you cannot cast - you can only melee (Other than the Hyatet of course) . If you wish to cast you must leave your animal form, sever your connection to nature and it's primordial capabilities, and return to your humanoid spiritual self.

""Fix the patrons so that if a shaman wants to be a bad boy in animal form, they can do it. Mitigation should be huge as a bear (Tuurgin form) - and dps - ever seen what a bear can do to another animal? They look slow and weak to you? No, of course not. Again, entry level game mechanics, 8 million people seem to accept that a druid in bear form can tank - as adults, we can too. The Rakuur (wolf) pet is utter garbage as well - give them real stealth - give them the option to have some really neat dps abilities - just don't let them sit and spam magic when the whole point of that shape shift was to melee.

Rogue: ""GIVE THEM REAL STEALTH. This class should have the best and hardest to detect stealth in the game.

Rogue - very hard to near impossible to detect if (a) rogue has maxed sneak/hide (b) rogue is same level or higher (c) higher level rogue you shouldn't see period (d) lower level rogue should be hard to detect but incrementally more possible depending on level. Rogues can climb walls/structures - in cities, etc. Rogue is the best dual weilder in the game hands down... getting my drift?

Give them at least a few non-positional low endurance using melee abilities that minimally equal ranger melee. What a rogue should be able to do from behind a ranger should be able to do with a bow - want up and personal go rogue - want to be ranged dps be a ranger. But don't gimp one or the other for either class.

Paladin: ""DoV should just be some kind of castable swing - again too much silly nuking and crossover between classes in VG - we want variation - uniqueness. Totally investigate the potential for that "Holy" warrior look. Shadow doesn't have a paladin - let's totally explore why. Massive resist rates - these boys should be hard as nail to root and debuff - they are blessed by god remember?

Ranger: ""Real stealth - they're only real detection competitor should be the rogue and rakuur shaman. Climb trees - massively improved movement rates in wooded areas etc...a permanent pet. One pet they can charm for life - only a special quest will give them the option to invest in bow skills more. Pet has its own abillities that are not shared - think wisely.

Lower their endurance rates for bow abilities. Give them the choice to be decent melee ranged, or to excell at only one or the other. Remind them that if they realy want to get good at melee, a rogue may not be a bad idea.

*******Give them tracking!

Now for the nerfed, underpowered, suck ass...

Bard: "what you think needs to be fixed" Masters of utility? Give this class decent heals and massive mana/energy regen songs - what they have now is just garbage. Make sure they can solo non stop 2 dots their level without epic gear. Give them an area of effect crowd control spell that locks them down while singing - nerfing someone's melee is not an answer to giving them great utility (4 songs at best that are worthwhile atm) - be more creative Sigil, it's what $$ and mmorpg deve teams are all about right?

Warrior: They can't heal. They can't nuke or life tap. But what they are missing in magic they more than make up for in raw dps and like the paladin massive resist rates. Where the paladin's resist rates should be based off of blessings and wards, the warrior's resists should be innate. Warriors can not be magically critted. Think carefully when you attempt to engage them. This is the epitomy of the battle hardened melee combatant. Only raw brute force is a true challenge to this class. This class is a close quarters nightmare. This class also masters weapons more easily than any other in the game and is able to mater heavy weapons that no other class would even attempt. This is the warrior.


""The kings of aggro management. This should be apparant at a low level (20+). They should have the best dps and mitigation in the game. They should have the ability to shout off crowd control in an aoe effect - the rallying cry of


Merge these two classes. Period:

Monk/ Disciple (not sure if they belong here, only fought like 2 of them) and here's the rub: Give these guys real evasion - rogues should debuff the crud out of someone, automatically lowering their chances to hit and defend/monk however deserves the highest evasion rate in the game - and I'm not talking about some long timered buff - these guys should be able to evade tank single mobs like all get out - as if they have a shield and then some. Chain abilities should be based off of reactionary counters - evade chain should be amazing. Give them real techniques, real shaolin moves - atm they look silly and that sweep across right leg hook kick is just silly c'mon folks.: ""



So how would this balance? I don't supporrt one on one conflict. Does it happen? Sure. Does this mean rogues are going to have this huge assassination bonus? Yes, them and rangers will be very very disruptive. Get over it - this is what they are built to be.

Imagine how much fun these classes could be. Now Sigil, walls have hitpoints, give us siege warfare - and something to fight over. You want pvp subs to rise? Add siege pve to pve servers, add siege pvp to pvp servers. Not sure this will work? Try an experimental server. See what the numbers look like. I guarantee any reasonable person would not be disappointed.

[Mardy]

^ That's one heck of a post, some really good points too. I don't agree with all, but some nice points that I hope devs would take a look at.

I think it's important when people list classes by their power, that they look at both 1 vs 1 situations as well as group vs group situations. Some classes shine in group situations, while others shine in solo situations...and yes a few classes absolutely rule in both situations.

I think first of all, people do too much damage and fights simply don't last long enough. This isn't fun for anybody, and those 1/2 shot abilities should go away or at least make them super rare much like legendary crits. Seriously, fights really need to last longer, DAOC had the very same issue which made the game really really lame for any classes that don't do burst dps.

Secondly, CC needs to be reworked. Some CC last too long, and they can be recast without diminishing returns. That needs to change, and people need to be given some sort of immunity for a set period of time when they've just gotten CC'ed prior. Oh and when AA abilities go in, please give us a "purge" on a 15min timer.

Also when you list classes by how they are overpowered, you should be specific. Some classes have 1 or 2 overpowered abilities/spells, that's it. They utilize those overpowered abilities to win. Those classes don't need to be butchered down, they simply need to have those overpowered abilities tweaked.

I really wish a Sigil game designer would come again and actually talk to players about what they have planned, what's in the works, and even if it's just a simple acknowledgement for certain issues would be great.

[willvas]

umm 2 things i will mention...

first off with the NEW no invis during combat puts bloodmage at the bottom...

only reason they put bloodmage as overpowered because they can gain bloodunion while invis... by attacking themselves... NOT THE CASE ANYMORE... they lose that invis now...
they are a weak nuking class now that will have trouble gaining bloodunion while be attacked

Paladin you might as well put underpowered... our DOV has been nerfed to hitting as weak as our smite....we get rooted, snared, mezzed, stunned by level 16's as a 50 pally... thats right... paladins are suppose to be low dps with HIGH defenses but we dont get that... i have seen myself get rooted by a level 16 bloodmage over and over... no resisting on a paladin...

this to us makes us really underpowered... my DOV wont even one shot a level 16 clothwearer... unless i crit

our mitigation doesnt work nearly good enough... yada yada... im still waiting for a defensive pally

[dethlord]

ahahah look at willvus's little dictum...

[Miff]

Anything that can solo a 4 dot (with only self buffs) needs nerfed as far as I'm concerned. Mainly this just means healers.
To kill a healer you need to take off their full health about 10 times. :cry:
Probably the easiest way to do this would be to give healers some kind of 'healing resistance' so that they absorb their own heals.
And of course increase the energy cost of healing spells by atleast 100% but greatly increase the out of combat base energy regeneration rate for healers.

Problem solved.

[Founder Apache]

Here are some overall improvements VG needs yesterday - only plugging one class here THE WARRIOR - and just throwing in some overall tidbits for the pvp environment that we all have to deal with which if implemented would give classes like the warrior far more viability:


1. Reduce healing effects in pvp by 50% to match 50% reduced damage in pvp.

2. Making a working mmorpg is a learning experience. Hence, learn what other successful mmorpgs did to handle certain pvp balancing issues. See what you can come up with.

3. Cancel speed effects while in combat. Hence you MUST be out of combat to utilize speed effects.

4. Guards defend their own - no faction grinding no bs cover up for pve server residual effects on our pvp servers. You will not be able to pk or even walk into our town without going to war with out guards. The more pk'ers show up the more guards come to defend plain and simple. Easy mode is over.

5. PvP kills of players within 5 levels are rewardable in the form of points that can be invested in skill upgrades of present skills, new skills from trees that can be unlocked, attribute increases.

6. PvP kill points are shared among team mates just like experience. In other words, you solo a 50 you get x points, you and 5 friends solo a 50 those points are distributed as 1/6th their original value.

7. A person has no pvp value in points or dropped coin for 15 minutes after a kill.

8. A Bard now has stronger magic in the invis category than a sorcerer, psionicist, blood mage...Bards pulsating invis is still a problem - INVIS NEEDS TO CANCEL IN COMBAT for everyone PERIOD. VG has too many in combat abilities staying active because of pve server fall out - Fix this garbage.

************************************************** *****
How WoW handled balancing pure tanks (no magic) vs hybrids, casters, and healers:

a. Gave warrior the option to talent tree in a skill called mortal strike which massively reduced healing effectiveness.

b. Gave warrior an ability to reflect damage back on caster.

c. Gave warrior an ability to resist fear and heighten stun resists.

d. Gave warriors an area of effect fear (piercing howl was it?)

e. Warrior had an aoe debilitating shout effect - could break stealth or invis for VG would b realistic

How Dark Age of Camelot handled balancing pure tanks (no magic) vs hybrids, casters, and healers:

a. Gave tanks potentially the highest resists in the game

b. Gave tanks the ability to put points earned from pvp into building abilities that lessened the timer of any form of CC (crowd control)

c. Gave tanks an innate ability to autimatically reduce CC effects by 25%

d. Shield slam is 9 seconds but a good investment in shield skills have to be made to aquire this - bread and butter of all tanks.

Going to mainline this thread - I think it has validity

[Seven_PRX]

1. Reduce healing effects in pvp by 50% to match 50% reduced damage in pvp.


Healing effectivness in PvP can be lowered, but ONLY if Spell Damage is significantly lowered.

[whiteweazel21]

I'm a caster, with yellow gear, mostly crafted well above my level. I try to get as many +hp gear with stats as well. I've spent tons of cash and effort into my gear for pvp, it is the best for my level. People ask me how I have such nice gear all the time. It's not my gear, it's rangers=OP

I get 1 shotted by rangers 3 levels above me.

Maybe against tanks, rangers arent good, but against non healing casters they are. Even if I had the time to respond, in a 2 shot scenario, they can kite me from 40 range where I can't even cast.

OP

[david99]

Healing effectivness in PvP can be lowered, but ONLY if Spell Damage is significantly lowered.

Exactly. Heals should also have a chance to critical IMO.

Which classes need a nurf?
Clerics.

Which classes need a buff?
Everyone else.

[WarZephyr]

Which classes need a buff?
Everyone else.


id have to disagree here, i know u were prob just sayin it in general, but the only classes that are in dire need of a buff/upgrade are bards, disciples, and warriors. everyone else can completely handle themselves in pvp, but these 3 classes i just mentioned are gone in a matter of seconds.

i hate my bard atm, lvl 35, and i hate it. cant kill a ranger, cant kill a caster, cant kill a dk, cant kill a healer. it sucks.

[shine]

Honestly i wonder what game some of you are playing. I have seen low level rangers lvl 18-20 2 and 3 shot higher level casters lvl 35-50. There is something extremely wrong with that. Ranger bow damage is out of control.

Any ability that allows you to kill someone without them able to use any ability that thier class has to counter is overpowered. If a ranger can attack from 40+ range and kill in 2 hits how does any class defend themselves?

Rangers get heals, snare, root, insta root/dot and stealth. They can cc as well as any class in the game and can attack from more range than any class with more burst damage than any class save maybe sorcs. Root in this game does not allow you to turn so its as good as a mez once they get behind you. Then it has only 15% change to break on damage? Which means you will probably die while still rooted in place. To be able to CC for long periods of time AND do as much damage as you want with your target still being cc'd is crazy thats like a psi mezzing you dropping 4 dots and nuking while you remain mezzed.

A nice idea might be some sort of blind/nearsight type spell for casters where it reduces ranged attack range (not magic) by say 40-50 %, quick casted spell at maybe 40 range. Or give the 4 caster classes an arrow bladeturn spell that absorbs one arrow. This would negate the big crit shot opener and followup finnisher.

Other than rangers; clerics, necros, sorc's and DK's seem to preform above average. With Pallies, druids, psi's, BM's and shamans at about average. And warriors, monks, bards, disciples, and rogues below average.

[Gecon]

id have to disagree here, i know u were prob just sayin it in general, but the only classes that are in dire need of a buff/upgrade are bards, disciples, and warriors. everyone else can completely handle themselves in pvp, but these 3 classes i just mentioned are gone in a matter of seconds. Dont disrupt his belief: "Clerics are overpowered". This mantra is already the core of a new religion, and arguments are completely useless against it. They just ignore them and repeat their mantra. Over and over and over again.

[Founder Apache]

Dont disrupt his belief: "Clerics are overpowered". This mantra is already the core of a new religion, and arguments are completely useless against it. They just ignore them and repeat their mantra. Over and over and over again.


I believe that Cleric players on pvp servers are just terrified that their almighty holy warrior class might get a tone down (nerf) - you can say clerics are not ridiculously op all you want but literally every player I have ever met who is not in love with a cleric as their toon agrees clerics are BS - the ones playing the class are playing a legal exploit of a system where so many classes are broken that a class like the cleric just soars above the refuse of a lackluster Sigil team.

You are going to have to accept that at some point in the future your cleric will in the least get a melee/pvp nerf. It's a matter of time because you know as much as SOE is happy to backburner this game to keep EQ2 afloat they might still want a few $$ out of the folks that are still left and they will aim to please to a certain extent - that I am certain of...at least with glaring OP'd classes like the cleric.

Repeating what players are seeing everyday in the game is no mantra - it's just mere observation.

[WarZephyr]

I believe that Cleric players on pvp servers are just terrified that their almighty holy warrior class might get a tone down (nerf) - you can say clerics are not ridiculously op all you want but literally every player I have ever met who is not in love with a cleric as their toon agrees clerics are BS - the ones playing the class are playing a legal exploit of a system where so many classes are broken that a class like the cleric just soars above the refuse of a lackluster Sigil team.

You are going to have to accept that at some point in the future your cleric will in the least get a melee/pvp nerf. It's a matter of time because you know as much as SOE is happy to backburner this game to keep EQ2 afloat they might still want a few $$ out of the folks that are still left and they will aim to please to a certain extent - that I am certain of...at least with glaring OP'd classes like the cleric.

Repeating what players are seeing everyday in the game is no mantra - it's just mere observation.

good post :D

[Aristotle]

Casters are the most op'd classes in game at present followed closely by clerics.

Druid/Sorcs/Necros can one "instance" kill the majority of classes - Druids with Calamity/Starfall, Sorcs with Meteor Storm + other spell amplified, Necro pet hitting for 3k plus a necro nuke etc. What do I mean by one "instance" kills? I mean they have their root/mez go behind victim and then amplify/crit whatever cast one big daddy spell plus another (like an insta) and bam two spells hitting simultaneously.

It takes no skill playing a class that can two shot anything, or one instance kill almost anything. This game is not fun for people playing said casters and much less fun for those that have no chance against them.

The worse affected are the tanks/melee with limited range damage as they are constantly rooted/mezzed or snared - and for the finishers, try getting a finisher off on someone who has greater run speed than you thats constantly running through you , or more easily just running away from you. (totally not compelling for tanks and the majority of melee classes).

Game Mechanics between casters to melees need to change. At present casters can cast at will without interuption (cept for the occasional stun) AND at range while poor melees are left up creek without a paddle (much lower damage and a tiny range, in a game where everyone is on manic speed and no opponent stays within a melees range or frontal arc).

Now for clerics, they are amazing op'd. The designer that gave them their latest buffs seriously needs to take high school quantitative class - like arithmetic? How does one permit a class to do more melee damage than tanks AND have great(!) healing at a switch AND have root?? Where is the balance. Clerics simply have to melee-melee-root-gobehindvictim-healthemselves-putupshield-rinserepeat. No skill against majority of melees. Oh wait clerics can stun as well as have a 20s invulnerability and a 4 attack absorb that lasts for 30mins which means going into battle they can absorb 8 attacks(4 from the initial cast and then cast again while in combat and then its on a 30s recast), 8attacks for crying out loud!



CONCLUSION:

a) Fix the disparity between range attackers to non range attackers - maybe let casting/bow action get interrupted like in many other mmo's.

b) Drop speed in combat. The fights are just not compelling when fights are done with 200+ pct speed, just no fun, and people are not like monsters that just stand in front of you to fight so the whole pvp proposition needs to be seriously looked at.

c) Increase the length of pvp fights so that people can act/react in pvp. Pvp fights are so short that it is just not fun. Either increase hp dramatically or lower pvp damage significantly.

[Jebus]

I believe that Cleric players on pvp servers are just terrified that their almighty holy warrior class might get a tone down (nerf) - you can say clerics are not ridiculously op all you want but literally every player I have ever met who is not in love with a cleric as their toon agrees clerics are BS - the ones playing the class are playing a legal exploit of a system where so many classes are broken that a class like the cleric just soars above the refuse of a lackluster Sigil team.

You are going to have to accept that at some point in the future your cleric will in the least get a melee/pvp nerf. It's a matter of time because you know as much as SOE is happy to backburner this game to keep EQ2 afloat they might still want a few $$ out of the folks that are still left and they will aim to please to a certain extent - that I am certain of...at least with glaring OP'd classes like the cleric.

Repeating what players are seeing everyday in the game is no mantra - it's just mere observation.

Well said. Agree.