Nino speaks about the deal.

[rhagz]

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/28627-soe-own-vg-sigil-fires-employees-32.html#post732163

There is much I would love to unload about right now, but seeing as I am feeling pretty emotional while trying to respect the wishes of remaining Vanguard management, I will refrain.

I knew this was coming months ago, as did most others, so I made arrangements prior to the whole unfolding of events today. Sony was kind enough to invite me and a few others to form a small team and to start prototyping a 'new' project. While we've done some 'secret' preliminary work, we begin in earnest tomorrow after we officially sign on with SOE. Don't bother asking about details, because you won't get any.

I became increasingly disenfranchised with the situation since the forced premature launch, which then culminated several weeks back when I decided I could not, in good conscience, continue serving the Sigil management staff in my over-extended capacity and stepped down. I would have walked away completely if this recent opportunity had not presented itself when it did.

I did the best I could with the time and resources I had at my disposal, but in the end it simply wasn't enough to bring the game up to the standards we all had hoped for in the time we had remaining. I apologize for any disappointments players have experienced. During the final year, I was pulling 80-100 hour weeks, and I was not at all alone in the building. I wish things could have been different.

While I was fortunate to stay employed, there were near 50 people today who were not, and it was painful watching the procession of stunned coworkers packing their belongings into little cardboard boxes with blank looks on their faces. I've never had to endure something like this, and I hope to never have to do it again. I know it is easy to point fingers at 'why' things ended up this way, but the vast, vast majority of the folks losing their jobs today had very little control on how events unfolded and many were skilled and creative people who simply wanted to make a great game.

The Vanguard team, obviously now much smaller, will go back to improving and fixing the game tomorrow. Myself and four others will be moving to a new location and beginning anew. The others will begin the process of trying to find a new place to work.

I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

[KevinV12000]

That is quite amazing. I read in the Smed interview that a handful of Sigil folks were now moving to San Diego to work on a new and very secret SOE project and I am thrilled for Nino that he is obviously with that group.

Given Nino is a stand-up guy, this is quite simply the most devestating indictment of Brad I have ever read. There is not question that there is some well-deserved smouldering anger here and, given what has happened, it appears perfectly justified.

[Cobalty2004]

I will miss Nino, glad to see he is working on a new project that he will hopefully enjoy.

Best of luck Nino.

[Multiplex]

Wow...

[Motiv]

Holy hell. I totally commend Nino, he is the only person I truly respect from Sigil. He tells it like it is, and then gets in trouble for it. Well now I hope that his new Secret project goes well, maybe it will be a new uber-MMO I can look forward to. One with a true vision.

[Mardy]

Yeah you folks, hate the management and those responsible, quit talking trash over the game designers and people that actually worked hard and communicated with the playerbase. Some of the responses in the other thread was just god awful. Hopefully reading what Nino said will stop people from wishing & clapping for certain dev heads to be axed.

[Multiplex]

I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

The last couple lines here are truly ****ed up.

[Cobalty2004]

Yeah you folks, hate the management and those responsible, quit talking trash over the game designers and people that actually worked hard and communicated with the playerbase. Some of the responses in the other thread was just god awful. Hopefully reading what Nino said will stop people from wishing & clapping for certain dev heads to be axed.

I agree.

[Atoyota]

I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

Yeah it's always the little guy that suffers, the worker... The manager, owner, director... The people that lead the project. They are to blame for the disruption in lives and loss of jobs.

A failed vision, bad planning and foresight... what ever the reason. I hope they sleep well.

[Jalex]

The antithesis of spin...Nino calls it like he sees it once again. I only wish that he was in a position to name names in the last paragraph.

[elektra]

Wow..those last few lines are a truly devastating attack on those in power at Sigil.

Nice to see someone with some integrity.

[Mreynolds]

The last couple lines here are truly ****ed up.

Its a shame really that those folks that are responsible are not gonna have to face it. Even Brad although his position pretty much means hes nothing but he still will get a check out of this. Brad if you read any of these threads I hope you cant sleep and that one day you will be held accountable for the 50 peoples jobs you did cost them.

[kcxiv]

The antithesis of spin...Nino calls it like he sees it once again. I only wish that he was in a position to name names in the last paragraph.
He's talking about Brad. You have to be foolish to think that Brad didnt have an escape plan. I am pretty sure that Brad didnt lose much in all this.

[Ellandess]

The antithesis of spin...Nino calls it like he sees it once again. I only wish that he was in a position to name names in the last paragraph.

The capitalisation of ONE, implies there is a name to name, not names.

[Ellandess]

He's talking about Brad. You have to be foolish to think that Brad didnt have an escape plan. I am pretty sure that Brad didnt lose much in all this.

"When you have nothing left, you still have your reputation to fall back on."

Didn't lose much? I don't see any reputation left from where I'm standing.

[Spirit]

:( is all I got.

Best of luck to you Nino, and my thoughts are with everyone who got the raw deal today. I hope you guys go on to find employment and the success you deserve. Damn.

[kcxiv]

"When you have nothing left, you still have your reputation to fall back on."

Didn't lose much? I don't see any reputation left from where I'm standing.I am talking money wise. I am sure Brad still made out somehow. If he hasnt been there for the last 8 months, you best beleive he had a way out.

[Choctaw]

Best of luck Nino. To those who lost their jobs here's hoping you are all back on your feet soon.

To those that he is referencing in his last paragraph, well it makes me hope that there really is such a thing as karma.

[vindrow]

Working on a secret project..hmmmmm, that wouldn't be DC Online. now would it.

[geneshifter]

The last couple lines here are truly ****ed up.

Agreed. Butler and McQuaid for sure are on that list. This is like the mortage company my wife worked at previously. The president and the CEO are father and son and they are running the company into the ground and will probably just write it off at a loss when it fails. They will make hundreds of thousands of dollars and the employees will get the shaft :( Sorry suckers they are.

[Multiplex]

It's really a shame I wasn't way out in front of this whole ordeal... it would have made a badass reality TV show.

[Mreynolds]

http://firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=15507

Well since Nino seems to be working with Butler I dont think that he was the brunt of that comment. I think it is all on Brad

[Ellandess]

I am talking money wise. I am sure Brad still made out somehow. If he hasnt been there for the last 8 months, you best beleive he had a way out.

He might have a way out, but I sure as hell wouldn't buy an umbrella of him if he was standing at a stall in Trafalgar Square, let alone touch a game his name is linked to from a production capacity.

[bobo101]

It all starts at the top they are usually the most to blame and the least to suffer. I'm sure Brad cashed out before all this fell apart. Too bad the new project is with sony. This is the 2nd sony product i wasted my time on there won't be a 3rd.

[Atoyota]

The capitalisation of ONE, implies there is a name to name, not names.

Nah I'm sure there are several...

In fact what remained of the "core" Sigil group, but yeah the main we all know...

But like i said in the thread up in the news forum, this whole deal started going down hill long before SOE stepped in. They (SOE) just saw a good opportunity and like the vultchers they are... snatched it up. Can't blame them... Just the pilot and captain of the good ship Sigil, (maybe the navigator also) :p

[Mithrull]

Its a shame really that those folks that are responsible are not gonna have to face it. Even Brad although his position pretty much means hes nothing but he still will get a check out of this. Brad if you read any of these threads I hope you cant sleep and that one day you will be held accountable for the 50 peoples jobs you did cost them.

Of course, Brad is also responsible for them having those jobs at all.

Let's not get personal here or pretend something malicious occurred. The game didn't do well enough. Brad didn't set out to have it happen that way. Businesses fail all the time and people are let go. It's an unfortunate but necessary aspect of the free market.

[bigdogchris]

So who do people believe are the ones truly responsible for the companies uprooting? Nino said none of the are without jobs so it must be some of the senior managers.

[Multiplex]

So who do people believe are the ones truly responsible for the companies uprooting? Nino said none of the are without jobs so it must be some of the senior managers.

Anybody on the project that sucks wang for money (and promotions). So, probably all of the management.

[Ellandess]

So who do people believe are the ones truly responsible for the companies uprooting? Nino said none of the are without jobs so it must be some of the senior managers.

Although he said 'not ONE' and the word NONE is an abbreviation of ''not one" he is making a point that there is ONE individual he holds responsible...:mc:

[Poldano]

Wow. I almost responded on another thread that none of the people who got axed were responsible for the failure, but I backed off and said something not so direct and absolute. Nino didn't pull any punches there.

[Multiplex]

Although he said 'not ONE' and the word NONE is an abbreviation of ''not one" he is making a point that there is ONE individual he holds responsible...:mc:

He said "not one of you" you're forgetting that part. "of you" implies more than one person.

[bigdogchris]

The capitalisation of ONE, implies there is a name to name, not names.He means "Not ONE of you are unemployed". He was emphasizing that not one of those responsible for the company going in the gutter were fired.

[elektra]

Of course, Brad is also responsible for them having those jobs at all.

Let's not get personal here or pretend something malicious occurred. The game didn't do well enough. Brad didn't set out to have it happen that way. Businesses fail all the time and people are let go. It's an unfortunate but necessary aspect of the free market.

Yeah, I agree with this. For all Brad's faults, I seriously doubt he ever maliciously intended this to happen. I think he is just a bad businessman, who was out of his depth in this situation. He may not have lost his job but his reputation is in tatters.

If we are to believe what is doing the rounds on the internet, then he hasn't even been in the office since December. Not a good sign for someone who was launching a game the following year.

I think he is guilty of incompetence nothing more sinister.

[Jalex]

Nino is most certainly referring to more than just Brad in his last paragraph.

If you have followed his posts on FoH, you will know that there were two camps inside the Sigil management structure...with very different views about the way forward for VG.

[Spirit]

Although he said 'not ONE' and the word NONE is an abbreviation of ''not one" he is making a point that there is ONE individual he holds responsible...:mc:

"For not ONE of you is without your job"

Nino is speaking in the plural here. He's using the word "you" as you would use "you lot" when describing a collective: or, more particularly, more than one person.

Another way to look at it would be.. "Not ONE of you lot is without your job"

[Ellandess]

"For not ONE of you is without your job"

Nino is speaking in the plural here. He's using the word "you" as you would use "you lot" when describing a collective: or, more particularly, more than one person.

Another way to look at it would be.. "Not ONE of you lot is without your job"

The word 'none' is not a plural, it's a singular. Pfft. I can't believe I am having this conversation on a game fansite forum...but if you are going to try to correct me, please at least, have a reason.

The sentence, 'None are here' is not grammatically correct. 'None IS here.' is accurate English, reflecting the use of the singular.

[Multiplex]

The word 'none' is not a plural, it's a singular. Pfft. I can't believe I am having this conversation on a game fansite forum...but if you are going to try to correct me, please at least, have a reason.

Well it makes a pretty big difference I think. The reason it makes a difference is because people were trying to figure out if it's one person who was being blamed or more than one. Pretty significant.

"None of you." is plural just like "Not one of you." is plural because "of you" is used to address more than one person.

[elektra]

The word 'none' is not a plural, it's a singular. Pfft. I can't believe I am having this conversation on a game fansite forum...but if you are going to try to correct me, please at least, have a reason.

Actually, NONE is usually used as a plural. The singular is NO ONE.

[Spirit]

The word 'none' is not a plural, it's a singular. Pfft. I can't believe I am having this conversation on a game fansite forum...but if you are going to try to correct me, please at least, have a reason.

Then dont' have this conversation, nobody really cares that you don't read Nino's post like everyone else has read it. Jesus christ.

[Ellandess]

Well it makes a pretty big difference I think. The reason it makes a difference is because people were trying to figure out if it's one person who was being blamed or more than one. Pretty significant.

"None of you." is plural just like "Not one of you." is plural because "of you" is used to address more than one person.

...

'You' in the English language is both plural and singular. It's definition is given by the pro-noun itself. None of you, is a plural reference sure, but 'not ONE of you' provides emphasis on the singular.

I can only assume neither you nor Spirit are english.

[Ellandess]

Actually, NONE is usually used as a plural. The singular is NO ONE.

I know what I read Spirit. The man is blaming a single individual. You really think Nino would point the finger at anyone else but Brad?

[Choctaw]

Well it makes a pretty big difference I think.

"None of you." is plural just like "Not one of you." is plural because "of you" is used to address more than one person.


I would have to say he is speaking in a plural as well.

The line reminded me of the musical Jesus Christ Superstar. "Not one! Not one of you!" Christ at the time was speaking to his disciples.

Sort of along the lines of "Not *one damn one among the lot of you" is without your job.

Interpretation really. I just didn't get it in a singular fashion like you did.

[geneshifter]

Yeah, I agree with this. For all Brad's faults, I seriously doubt he ever maliciously intended this to happen. I think he is just a bad businessman, who was out of his depth in this situation. He may not have lost his job but his reputation is in tatters.

If we are to believe what is doing the rounds on the internet, then he hasn't even been in the office since December. Not a good sign for someone who was launching a game the following year.

I think he is guilty of incompetence nothing more sinister.

Not me. He knew this game was a stinking pile and released it anyways. I could have avoided buying the CE box had I known the truth about how bad this game really was and waited a bit. He was still pumping out the same old PR crap weeks after launch trying to improve numbers. They should have admitted failure long ago and turned this thing over to SOE when MS dropped them.

[elektra]

...

'You' in the English language is both plural and singular. It's definition is given by the pro-noun itself. None of you, is a plural reference sure, but 'not ONE of you' provides emphasis on the singular.

I can only assume neither you nor Spirit are english.

The phrase 'not one of you' implies a group therefore is plural. Yes , I am English.

BTW, an argument like this, could ONLY happen on SV :D

[rhagz]

Does it matter? Clearly the brunt of his anger is directed at Brad. I am sure there are others, likely the guy who has been running the ship for the last 8 months, David Gilbertson. Nino said he was ready to walk away entirely. That leads me to believe the 'new' management was just as inept as the old.

And lucky for you supporters, it's the same people who will be running the show after this fiasco as well.

[Multiplex]

...

'You' in the English language is both plural and singular. It's definition is given by the pro-noun itself. None of you, is a plural reference sure, but 'not ONE of you' provides emphasis on the singular.

I can only assume neither you nor Spirit are english.

No shit sherlock. Do you find it the least bit strange that you're the only person who is reading this incorrectly? You ARE wrong and I'd just like to point that out real fast. I'm actually at a loss as to how to teach you English in a way that you can understand it.

"Not one" (selecting an individual from a group, recurring) "of you" (addressing or referring to more than one person)

Sweet Jesus.

[Moocow]

I really think that Jeff Butler is the target of his last lines (along with the other super secret co-founders/sponsors), since Brad is most obviously out of a job; "We were told, 'Brad is now an advisor on the Vanguard game only and his expertise will be called upon as needed.'".

http://firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=15507

Brad was definitely not needed at all for the past year according to GrouchyGamer's source. Brad might have been useless in the end, although it might have been in response to SOE controlling his influence.

The key is: We don't have all of the necessary parameters. Although you might think that we own stock in the company (or owned), we never did. We were just consumers of a product and nothing more.

SOE definitely has plans for Vanguard. I hope that they don't botch it up.

[Spirit]

David Gilbertson.

hello sanity

[Poke]

He's talking about Brad. You have to be foolish to think that Brad didnt have an escape plan. I am pretty sure that Brad didnt lose much in all this.

I think he is talking about Butler. Brad did not seem too involved with the game. Plus Brad has a "Consultant" role which means "we will pay you to stay home and watch Oprah".

Butler is still the man at the helm. Therefore, this ship will continue to sink.

[Multiplex]

Does it matter? Clearly the brunt of his anger is directed at Brad. I am sure there are others, likely the guy who has been running the ship for the last 8 months, David Gilbertson. Nino said he was ready to walk away entirely. That leads me to believe the 'new' management was just as inept as the old.

And lucky for you supporters, it's the same people who will be running the show after this fiasco as well.

C'mon Rhagz... this is SV.com so of course it doesn't matter. I'm just getting a giggle out of pointing out that he/she/it is not only wrong but is getting uppity about other people's nationality. :)

[Ellandess]

none /nʌn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[nuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–pronoun
1. no one; not one: None of the members is going.
2. not any, as of something indicated: None of the pie is left. That is none of your business.
3. no part; nothing: I'll have none of your backtalk!
4. (used with a plural verb) no or not any persons or things: I left three pies on the table and now there are none. None were left when I came.
–adverb
5. to no extent; in no way; not at all: The supply is none too great.
–adjective
6. Archaic. not any; no (usually used only before a vowel or h): Thou shalt have none other gods but me.
[Origin: bef. 900; ME non, OE nān, equiv. to ne not + ān one]

—Usage note Since none has the meanings “not one” and “not any,” some insist that it always be treated as a singular and be followed by a singular verb: The rescue party searched for survivors, but none was found. However, none has been used with both singular and plural verbs since the 9th century. When the sense is “not any persons or things” (as in the example above), the plural is more common: … none were found. Only when none is clearly intended to mean “not one” or “not any” is it followed by a singular verb: Of all my articles, none has received more acclaim than my latest one.


I'm bored trying to defend my knowledge of my own language now. Move on.

[rhagz]

Butler is still the man at the helm. Therefore, this ship will continue to sink.

Butler is heading up the new project. You know, the one that Nino has a job because of.

[geneshifter]

SOE definitely has plans for Vanguard. I hope that they don't botch it up.

This is really what I'm still hopeful about with VG and I thought I'd never say that about SOE again. Still, devs walking away and not wanting to work with SOE is a bit of a warning flag in my mind :(

[curthalion]

I know what I read Spirit. The man is blaming a single individual. You really think Nino would point the finger at anyone else but Brad?

Again, 'For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow.'

I can't believe you can't see that he is referring to more than one person. Your posts are pretty erudite.

[Kody]

I think he is talking about Butler. Brad did not seem too involved with the game. Plus Brad has a "Consultant" role which means "we will pay you to stay home and watch Oprah".

Butler is still the man at the helm. Therefore, this ship will continue to sink.

I'm fairly certain he's talking about Brad - who is/was the CEO of Sigil Online Games - and wasn't even around to apologize to the 50 people that lost their jobs due to the utter failure in management that occured over the past 7-8 months.

[Ariste]

All I can say is, I wish there were more people like Nino in game development. He tells it like it is. I hope whatever project he's working on now turns out to be truly kickass.

[Multiplex]

I'm bored trying to defend my knowledge of my own language now. Move on.

Brilliant... you've figured out what "no one" means. Now you just have to get a grasp on how "of you" changes "Not one" from singular to plural.

Your high school English teacher would be ashamed.

[elektra]

C'mon Rhagz... this is SV.com so of course it doesn't matter. I'm just getting a giggle out of pointing out that he/she/it is not only wrong but is getting uppity about other people's nationality. :)

Hey, I am English and I disagree with them too :)

It's quite obvious it implies the plural, even here in the UK, it's used daily in that form.
Gotta love SV for these pointless English lessons.

[Ellandess]

Brilliant... you've figured out what "no one" means. Now you just have to get a grasp on how "of you" changes "Not one" from singular to plural.

Your high school English teacher would be ashamed.

Multiplex, the absolute last thing you want to do is try to attempt to attack my knowledge of the english language. I'm sure you've had this conversation before, but american-english is not a language, it's your idea of what is right. High school English teacher?

You're excluding the possibility that I am one.

[geneshifter]

Hey, I am English and I disagree with them too :)

It's quite obvious it implies the plural, even here in the UK, it's used daily in that form.
Gotta love SV for these pointless English lessons.

LOL, of course it's the plural. Go get an "English for Dummies" book at B&N and call me in the morning :)

[Multiplex]

Multiplex, the absolute last thing you want to do is try to attempt to attack my knowledge of the english language. I'm sure you've had this conversation before, but american-english is not a language, it's your idea of what is right. High school English teacher?

You're excluding the possibility that I am one.

If you are an English teacher then you deserve to be fired. You're so absolutely 100% wrong that it's comical to me that I even bothered to try to explain it to you.

[curthalion]

High school English teacher?

You're excluding the possibility that I am one.

I would have to. Unless the quality of teaching has deteriorated that they can't even get what 'not one of you' means.

[rhagz]

Okay morons, let me clarify it for you.

Read the whole quote.
Specifically the bold words.
I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

It's clearly plural. End of lesson.

[Ariste]

Brilliant... you've figured out what "no one" means. Now you just have to get a grasp on how "of you" changes "Not one" from singular to plural.

Your high school English teacher would be ashamed.

Yeah. 'Not one' is singular. 'Not one of you' is plural. 'Not one of you' doesn't make sense if you is taken as a singular. It's meant as 'not one of you all.' There's really no other way to take it.

Plus, look at the preceding sentence. He talks about how he hopes those people who were responsible yada yada yada... pretty clearly plural.

[Jalex]

C'mon Rhagz... this is SV.com so of course it doesn't matter. I'm just getting a giggle out of pointing out that he/she/it is not only wrong but is getting uppity about other people's nationality. :)

lol..hopefully this will settle the muliple shooters/lone gunman debate, (and yes, this discussion could only happen on SV :pirate: ).

I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

Plural usage in red.

[Multiplex]

Okay morons, let me clarify it for you.

Read the whole quote.
Specifically the bold words.


It's clearly plural. End of lesson.

Thanks Rhagz... but it should be moron singular. :)

P.S. and it isn't me (Phew! Glad I headed that one off at the pass.)

[bigdogchris]

Jeff loves WoW ... so I can only imagine how easy this next SOE project is going to be :rolleyes:

[elektra]

I'm sure you've had this conversation before, but american-english is not a language, it's your idea of what is right..


i'm surprised you guys let this one go :D

[Loiol]

Thanks Rhagz... but it should be moron singular. :)

P.S. and it isn't me (Phew! Glad I headed that one off at the pass.)

My god you guys have sh*tted up this thread. It's almost like a comedy routine. Just not a funny one

[Multiplex]

My god you guys have sh*tted up this thread. It's almost like a comedy routine. Just not a funny one

What does it matter? There are so many threads on this gigantic drama... crapping on one of them isn't going to change life here at SV one bit.

[Moocow]

Multiplex, the absolute last thing you want to do is try to attempt to attack my knowledge of the english language. I'm sure you've had this conversation before, but american-english is not a language, it's your idea of what is right. High school English teacher?

You're excluding the possibility that I am one.


Not one of you has property P.

Logical equivalent: ~(there exists a person belonging to the object YOU (which is plural by among) that has property P)

He wasn't saying that ONE person was to blame, but that there did not exist a person that DID have blame that was also out of a job.

Logic FTW!

By the way, ~ is not, for those of you that have never taken a course in logic.

[QforQ]

Honestly who cares about the English lessons and all this.

What matters is what Nino said, not you squabbling over some perceived misinterpretations.

Much respect for Nino and the other devs that tried their best to speak out and be upstanding. I look forward to see what Nino does next.

[Ominous]

Honestly who cares about the English lessons and all this.

What matters is what Nino said, not you squabbling over some perceived misinterpretations.

Much respect for Nino and the other devs that tried their best to speak out and be upstanding. I look forward to see what Nino does next.

Well, we certainly do know that the music will be awesome, because that is the only thing Vanguard had just right.

[shadowrelm]

Given Nino is a stand-up guy,
---------------------------------------------

funny, i dont really see he is much better from what i read.

my reasoning.......
----------------------------------------------------------

While I was fortunate to stay employed, there were near 50 people today who were not, and it was painful watching the procession of stunned coworkers packing their belongings into little cardboard boxes with blank looks on their faces. I've never had to endure something like this, and I hope to never have to do it again.

and yet.............

I knew this was coming months ago, as did most others, so I made arrangements prior to the whole unfolding of events today. Sony was kind enough to invite me and a few others to form a small team and to start prototyping a 'new' project.

------------------------------------------------------

the man of the people only goes so far i guess. i wonder how many of those "stunned coworkers packing their belongings" he felt solidarity enough with to share the fact they were going to be unemployed "months ago" so they could make plans for THEIR famileys too.........

just calling it like i see it.

[sumuji]

The music in the game is fantastic and I'm sure Nino is great at his job, but he totally blows at discretion. He was always flapping his jaw on FoH to the point I was amazed he even remained employed. How you can be a dev on a public board bashing management or other practices no matter how true it might be just boggled the mind.

[rhagz]

the man of the people only goes so far i guess. i wonder how many of those "stunned coworkers packing their belongings" he felt solidarity enough with to share the fact they were going to be unemployed "months ago" so they could make plans for THEIR famileys too.........

just calling it like i see it.

I would be willing to guess that most of those people knew just as much as he did. SOE was going to be buying the game/company and layoffs were inevitable. I'm sure a lot of people held out hope that they would make it in and I'm sure just as many already have other opportunities lined up.

[Ominous]

The music in the game is fantastic and I'm sure Nino is great at his job, but he totally blows at discretion. He was always flapping his jaw on FoH to the point I was amazed he even remained employed. How you can be a dev on a public board bashing management or other practices no matter how true it might be just boggled the mind.

Because he has opinions about things and doesn't send his posts through the spin cycle of the PR washing machine. I and several others enjoy and prefer his no nonsense, to the point, un-spun posts. I got tired of Brad pushing sunshine and rainbows during beta. Nino's candor was and is a breath of fresh air.

[popsicledeath]

I know what I read Spirit. The man is blaming a single individual. You really think Nino would point the finger at anyone else but Brad?

I wish there was somebody that agreed with you, so we could flame them too, since you seemed to have stopped posting.

I could just see before a battle a general saying "there's a chance not one of you will make it back" and then clarifying "No, I only mean that there's a chance only one of you will die, only one, no more!"

[Darkmoore]

Wow. Just...............wow.

I guess I have a lot of crow to eat for all the times I supported McQuaid. Damn, I hate the taste of this stuff. :mad: :mad:

[Sailormoontw]

I've heard SOW is going to release an espionage online and a kong-fu online, maybe Nino is on one of them.

[Chae668]

...............

i am absolutely speechless.....

...........

.....

..

[pablo0713]

Wow....

Someone really needs to make a documentary or book about what went down.

Sorta like those documentaries that came out about the rise and fall of the dot coms like Kozmo.

Or, the Doom documentary where John Carmack spills the beans on how he felt about John Romero.

To know all there is to know, I'd give anything to be a fly on the wall of Nino's brain.

[BuzWeaver]

I was just as disappointed as Nino, and any rational as well as objective person saw this coming. I admire those who tried to fight this up hill battle and internal strife, as the game reflected this disconnect that appeared to be happening inside the Sigil house. I can honestly say I do share in the disappointment as an old school EQ player I though for sure that Brad, the master mind and brilliant architect of (EQ) Verant would create yet another ingenious, compelling, substantive and enthralling game.

The only thing I can say is, why didn't Brad stick to his game plan and why did he go with the demographics? As a gaming community we know how the Fair Weather MMO'ers are, why cater to these death by a million cut malcontents who's soul purpose is to be bottle fed with instant gratification and instantly coddled the moment they feel inconvenienced?

[Ominous]

I was just as disappointed as Nino, and any rational as well as objective person saw this coming. I admire those who tried to fight this up hill battle and internal strife, as the game reflected this disconnect that appeared to be happening inside the Sigil house. I can honestly say I do share in the disappointment as an old school EQ player I though for sure that Brad, the master mind and brilliant architect of (EQ) Verant would create yet another ingenious, compelling, substantive and enthralling game.

The only thing I can say is, why didn't Brad stick to his game plan and why did he go with the demographics? As a gaming community we know how the Fair Weather MMO'ers are, why cater to these death by a million cut malcontents who's soul purpose is to be bottle fed with instant gratification and instantly coddled the moment they feel inconvenienced?

They randomly chose from those with higher end computers and let them into early beta. Unfortunately they chose people who weren't ready for an alpha state beta or expected Vanguard to be something else, so that they were only 80 of us online a night. Sigil decided that people didn't like the underlying philosophy and design rather than the very rough state of the game. That's my theory at least.

[Almighty God]

They randomly chose from those with higher end computers and let them into early beta. Unfortunately they chose people who weren't ready for an alpha state beta or expected Vanguard to be something else, so that they were only 80 of us online a night. Sigil decided that people didn't like the underlying philosophy and design rather than the very rough state of the game. That's my theory at least.

Were you following the beta forums? There were a lot of people very unhappy with Sigil's original gameplay choices. That, combined with input from Microsoft, led them to try for a on-the-fly redesign, which didn't work out.

[Chae668]

well, for those devs that are staying, they can no longer use the cool lookin green names...

i just checked the color coding thingy here..

they have to use some pinkish purple color.

just was a side thought.:pirate:

edit: oh... the old devs can post in the volcano now too.. that could let them vent a little. since, they deserve it.

[Napolleon]

glad to see sigil screwed its own people out of jobs and left them in the cold about it.. grats

[Ominous]

Were you following the beta forums? There were a lot of people very unhappy with Sigil's original gameplay choices. That, combined with input from Microsoft, led them to try for a on-the-fly redesign, which didn't work out.

Depends on which phase. Most of the complaints in phase 2 were very general and people had a hard time pegging what was wrong with the game, and I'll admit that something was wrong. However, I think they misdiagnosed the problem and prescribed chemotherapy to treat bronchitis. So the original problems lingered and they ended up creating more problems.

Also, I think a lot of people thought Vanguard was going to be something it wasn't. When I got into beta, it was what I had expected. Yes, it was buggy, it was missing some features, and the world was smaller than I thought it would be, but it was for the most part what I had expected. They got too many people into the beta who were expecting something different, these people complained, and, instead of sticking to what they had worked on, they tried to change things. So, instead of a great hardcore game, they made a mediocre hybrid. Now, I won't say that, if they had stuck to their guns, they would have a larger subscriber base today, but I would still be playing the game. That I do know.

[Napolleon]

They randomly chose from those with higher end computers and let them into early beta. Unfortunately they chose people who weren't ready for an alpha state beta or expected Vanguard to be something else, so that they were only 80 of us online a night. Sigil decided that people didn't like the underlying philosophy and design rather than the very rough state of the game. That's my theory at least.

just the fact that they marketed it and had it hardcore (GOOD) and then became hypocrits and went the route of WOW (BAD) is why this game failed.

and yes i was there with yall in beta 0++, they stressed too much on graphics and pretty things and not enuf on gameplay.

[Loampounder]

Because he has opinions about things and doesn't send his posts through the spin cycle of the PR washing machine. I and several others enjoy and prefer his no nonsense, to the point, un-spun posts. I got tired of Brad pushing sunshine and rainbows during beta. Nino's candor was and is a breath of fresh air.

In all fairness, the CEO had to be sunshine and rainbows. It's kind of stupid to be the one in charge AND be pessimistic about the game. I could see people being tired of my sunshine, but that was Brad's job, even in beta. Nino was in a position to be able to be like that.

As for my sunshine, I'm sorry...

[Loampounder]

Nino has more... (http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/28627-soe-own-vg-sigil-fires-employees-38.html#post732473)

For the record...of course Brad did not intend for this to happen; nor should people's ire be directed solely at him. Outside of work I spend time with Brad and we get along fine. I consider him a friend, and I want nothing more than to put all of this behind and move forward. This does not remove him from culpability; but there is nothing to be gained by rubbing it in. I said what I felt needed to be said, and hopefully that is that.

[Monthigos]

As odd as this may sound, I think Nino is the main reason I play Vanguard. Its always been discouraging how much MMO developers skimp on music figuring people will just turn it off. The massive amount of music in this game is staggering. I'm not crazy about every single piece, but there is a lot that is just exceptional. What can I say, good music can make a mediocre game gold in my ears. I'm a musician at heart.

If you read this Nino, best of luck on your new project.

[Mustang68]

The saddest thing for me is where Nino mentions that the much "smaller" group will be returning to work on Vanguard. There goes the hope that things will be getting done at even the speed that they were up until this point. Very bad news.

[Hatto]

The saddest thing for me is where Nino mentions that the much "smaller" group will be returning to work on Vanguard. There goes the hope that things will be getting done at even the speed that they were up until this point. Very bad news.
Not naturally, it all depends what they get told to work on. The problem with all the 'massive' work done after launch is that most of it was build on sand. You need a proper and solid foundation. Rushing content that's unbalanced and needs to be redone later doesn't work out.

[Shawnsan]

My favorite posting in the thread that came from was:

"The writing was really on the wall for Vanguard when Microsoft pulled out."

[Mustang68]

Not naturally, it all depends what they get told to work on. The problem with all the 'massive' work done after launch is that most of it was build on sand. You need a proper and solid foundation. Rushing content that's unbalanced and needs to be redone later doesn't work out.

I agree with you. I think your use of "not naturally" is a bit optimistic in this case however.

Is Cylus still around? If Cylus isn't then there goes any quick fixes for item issues. And with the amount of those in VG, that's going to be a big problem. SOE's track record time-wise is terrible with these kinds of fixes. And I will state with the majority that SOE has typically had very poor communication between development and players on needed fixes. EQ2 being the prime example.

[anagain]

For once I think Nino has said something I actually think is not from a lower orifice than his mouth. (and I base that on one particular comment he made that I was not amused by - though I'm actually starting to think I misunderstood him back then - well might have)

I guess only Nino had the guts to say it, and boy was he probably justified in saying it.


I don't play Vanguard anymore but I still listen to and thoroughly enjoy Nino's music. Like someone above said, it was the best thing in Vanguard.

It's nice to think some other MMO will get great music, even if it might end up being another copy-cat MMO like they all seem to be.

Do something for the old fans, Nino, make a daring MMO.

[dmodert66]

Well, we certainly do know that the music will be awesome, because that is the only thing Vanguard had just right.

Wow..Thats really cool that you said that...I was actually wondering about the guy atm (though he works on many games for consoles and PC, I imagine an MMO was his longest project)...He is my good frined's wife's cousin! I hope to meet him one day, as I thought the music was great as well...Maybe this coming holiday season :)

As to all of this...
A) I am posative Nino was talking in the plural
B) I have met Brad and quite a few of the team, and they were VERY passionate about thier game back then
C) I guess things changed...Brad not being in the office (if true) is truely reprehensible...
D) I will keep my account active for the next few months to see what SOE can make happen...

[dmodert66]

For once I think Nino has said something I actually think is not from a lower orifice than his mouth. (and I base that on one particular comment he made that I was not amused by - though I'm actually starting to think I misunderstood him back then - well might have)

I guess only Nino had the guts to say it, and boy was he probably justified in saying it.


I don't play Vanguard anymore but I still listen to and thoroughly enjoy Nino's music. Like someone above said, it was the best thing in Vanguard.

It's nice to think some other MMO will get great music, even if it might end up being another copy-cat MMO like they all seem to be.

Do something for the old fans, Nino, make a daring MMO.

Wait...wait...Nino is the music guy? Does his name show up in the credits? If so, what was his name...My friend's wife's cousin match the name that is in the book/credits. He told me before he even knew that I was playing Vanguard...If Nino is him, it will be an honor to meet him one day....

[anagain]

Wait...wait...Nino is the music guy? Does his name show up in the credits? If so, what was his name...My friend's wife's cousin match the name that is in the book/credits. He told me before he even knew that I was playing Vanguard...If Nino is him, it will be an honor to meet him one day....


Todd Masten

[bigdogchris]

My favorite posting in the thread that came from was:

"The writing was really on the wall for Vanguard when Microsoft pulled out."Microsoft saw this coming a year ago?

[Almighty God]

Microsoft saw this coming a year ago?

Frankly, now that I hear just what's been going on inside Sigil, I'm not in the least bit surprised...I mean, with inside information, who wouldn't have seen this coming?

[rhagz]

Microsoft saw this coming a year ago?

I think a lot of people saw this coming. Having a publisher like Microsoft give you the boot is NEVER a good thing. It means they think you will not be worth the time and effort. If Microsoft is willing to take losses on consoles for a decade before they see profits, then certainly they wouldn't think twice about an MMO that needs initial funding to turn into free money in a year or two. Microsoft saw that VG was likely to never turn a profit, or if it did it would be so small that it wasn't worth it.

[Draemorr]

God this makes me so angry... I freaking hate Brad Mcquaid now the guy has not only ruined Vanguard, but he has ruined the lives of those that helped make it. You are the biggest jerk in the world Mr. Mcquaid and I honestly don't think you should ever manage another team or even be in charge of a single person the rest of your life. It is proven now you have no clue how to manage even a lemonade stand you bozo. As for Nino I'm really sorry it came to this and to the others that lost their jobs but I'm glad Vanguard is in good hands with SOE and hopefully they can turn it around. I see Brad is going to be a consultant to SOE, I hope that is contract work as I think it would be an obvious HUGE mistake to hire this jerk for a project he destroyed. Yes I blame Brad because it's his company and he is the one to blame ultimately.

[kohl]

Yes I blame Brad because it's his company and he is the one to blame ultimately.

With all due respect, you need to read the article again because Brad wasn't 100% responsible for the mess. I would lay a bulk of the blame squarely at the 3 managers who were not open to feedback from the rest of the staff.

Regardless, I suspect many Vanbois will make Brad the convenient focus of hatred and blame everything on him, and actually believe that with him gone, things will change. Too bad the leadership that caused a lot of the problems is still in place!

[Draemorr]

With all due respect, you need to read the article again because Brad wasn't 100% responsible for the mess. I would lay a bulk of the blame squarely at the 3 managers who were not open to feedback from the rest of the staff.

Regardless, I suspect many Vanbois will make Brad the convenient focus of hatred and blame everything on him, and actually believe that with him gone, things will change. Too bad the leadership that caused a lot of the problems is still in place!

Well I'll back up a second and agree with you to a point. While yes there are probably up to 3 people to blame I still place most of it on Brad. But Like I've been reading on other threads and forums, you know Brad isn't a CEO he is a game designer so I guess we shouldn't be surprised to see Sigil fail with him in charge after all he doesn't have that kind of experience. I don't really hate him I just wish things could have been different but that is life I guess

[Multiplex]

Regardless, I suspect many Vanbois will make Brad the convenient focus of hatred and blame everything on him, and actually believe that with him gone, things will change. Too bad the leadership that caused a lot of the problems is still in place!

He'll be the focus because they've worshiped Brad the Prophet Reborn for so long and now they feel betrayed.

[DCpunk]

I can't believe they didn't can any of the management. Smed really IS retarded. We can't even doubt that now.

[DCpunk]

Too bad the leadership that caused a lot of the problems is still in place!


Sure, the leadership that was in place for the years that Brad was almost completely absent should take some of the blame, but the majority of the blame lies on the man who started the project and abandoned it as soon as it hit Beta.

[Kelenvor]

I can't believe they didn't can any of the management. Smed really IS retarded. We can't even doubt that now.

This concerns me also. Maybe the guy in charge is ok but didn't feel that he any real authority to change anything before. /shrug I guess only time is going to tell.

[Vaernimus]

I'll tell you this much for free. I've never seen Silky Venom so peaceful. Game developers should implode spectacularly more often, it really keeps the forum posters civil and on the same level! ;)

[geneshifter]

Nah, it's the fact that official forums have opened and the views of many about the state of the game and the inadequacies of the dev team have all been confirmed now. I was one that had some trust in McQuaid to deliver on all the talk but I will never fall for hype again, ever.

[DCpunk]

How the hell does one fall for obvious hype, anyway? No wonder some snake oil salesmen made so much money once upon a time. :D

[kohl]

Sure, the leadership that was in place for the years that Brad was almost completely absent should take some of the blame, but the majority of the blame lies on the man who started the project and abandoned it as soon as it hit Beta.

This is the new big question. What happened during beta 2 that caused Brad to vanish? Perhaps it finally dawned on him just how much time had passed, how much money had been burned up, and just how little progress had been made? At that point, it was a monumental struggle to just ship something..ANYTHING out the door and Brad began serious consideration of his options.

[DCpunk]

This is the new big question. What happened during beta 2 that caused Brad to vanish? Perhaps it finally dawned on him just how much time had passed, how much money had been burned up, and just how little progress had been made? At that point, it was a monumental struggle to just ship something..ANYTHING out the door and Brad began serious consideration of his options.

1 name:

Keith Parkinson.

[Malivan]

nino is a crackhead that should have been the first one fired.

[rhagz]

1 name:

Keith Parkinson.

And what the hell does an artist have to do with anything? Keith simply painted stuff and Sigil used his style as a reference point. The two are 100% unrelated.

[DCpunk]

And what the hell does an artist have to do with anything? Keith simply painted stuff and Sigil used his style as a reference point. The two are 100% unrelated.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just pointing out the relationships based on teh time frame. I know that Brad and Keith were very good friends, and his passing may well have affected Brad negatively.

That being said, I think that Brad dedicating this game to him, not even knowing the state of the game, is a serious travesty. It just goes to show how removed he was from the project.

Disclaimer:

I don't think Brad is fit to manage a janatorial team.

[Hatto]

This is the new big question. What happened during beta 2 that caused Brad to vanish? Perhaps it finally dawned on him just how much time had passed, how much money had been burned up, and just how little progress had been made? At that point, it was a monumental struggle to just ship something..ANYTHING out the door and Brad began serious consideration of his options.
Actually two things come up my mind, first is plain and simple a burnout, it tends to happen to people who identify themselves too much with their work. The other is, lets say, influence of the people who have the money. Maybe he was forced into his consultant position way earlier. Which would also explain why SoE is fine with the current leadership.

Its actually the question I'm most interested in right now. Not to make up excuses for Brad, there's enough to blame him for from five years anyway.

[geneshifter]

How the hell does one fall for obvious hype, anyway? No wonder some snake oil salesmen made so much money once upon a time. :D
Hey, all I know is what I heard from interviews and such and the game sounded like a wonderful game before I got in there and actually played the thing. Call me stupid all you like, there were tons of people on the internet backing this crap up and saying that it was the best game ever. I just assumed the naysayers were just a bunch of complainers. But, you know, I should've waited like I was going to (being another McQuaid venture and all).

[Man0warr]

I promised not to be publically scornful, but I will say this: I hope those truly responsible for the deep rooted failings of the company lay in bed tonight and relive the events that transpired today in their heads, over and over. For not ONE of you is without your job come tomorrow morning.

His last line is referring to Dave Gillbertson, Bill Fisher (Tagad), and Darrin McPherson (Talisker). The 3 managers that ran the game for the last 8 months.

[DCpunk]

Hey, all I know is what I heard from interviews and such and the game sounded like a wonderful game before I got in there and actually played the thing. Call me stupid all you like, there were tons of people on the internet backing this crap up and saying that it was the best game ever. I just assumed the naysayers were just a bunch of complainers. But, you know, I should've waited like I was going to (being another McQuaid venture and all).


Sorry man, I was just busting your balls. Nothing serious.

[rhagz]

His last line is referring to Dave Gillbertson, Bill Fisher (Tagad), and Darrin McPherson (Talisker). The 3 managers that ran the game for the last 8 months.

Tagad being the one quoted as saying "I think I'll buy a house with my money from stock" as half of Sigil packed up their shit and went looking for a new job.

[Squishy]

I seem to remember saying something last month about Brad being gone (as in no longer in control of VG, quite obviously he still had a job but it's not the same as being a CEO) and seeing some responses along the lines of "rumor, blah blah blah" *eyeroll* "rumor, blah blah blah"

*does the 'I told you so' dance*

That aside, I went back to EQ1 a few weeks ago. I'm going to be keeping tabs on VG via forums and news websites. I want it to succeed. I'll be taking another look next year to see where its at in terms of progress and whatnot. I would like to give it a second chance when it's truly read for launch. The game has a lot of potential. I feel bad for all of those Sigil employees. I can't imagine how they must feel. :(

[Geldoff]

That is quite amazing. I read in the Smed interview that a handful of Sigil folks were now moving to San Diego to work on a new and very secret SOE project and I am thrilled for Nino that he is obviously with that group.

Given Nino is a stand-up guy, this is quite simply the most devestating indictment of Brad I have ever read. There is not question that there is some well-deserved smouldering anger here and, given what has happened, it appears perfectly justified.

it is an indictment of management, not Brad, he is only one memeber of that team? as so many gave him too much credit during development, they are giving him to much blame during the collapse, the sword cuts both ways I guess?

[DCpunk]

it is an indictment of management, not Brad, he is only one memeber of that team? as so many gave him too much credit during development, they are giving him to much blame during the collapse, the sword cuts both ways I guess?

Isn't the CEO ultimately responsible for the management practices of his management team?

[Multiplex]

Isn't the CEO ultimately responsible for the management practices of his management team?

In the long term... the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything.

[Geldoff]

Isn't the CEO ultimately responsible for the management practices of his management team?


Yes sure, what EXACTLY has the management team (co headed by Brad) done so terribly that Brad is suddenly Hitler, this is what no one seems to be able to answer? It reminds me of during development when all the worshipers loved everything he said and when I would ask for specifics, they couldnt tell me exactly what it was he had said. Does anyone actually know exactly why they hate Brad at this point and can you phrase it for me in a logical organized paragraph?

[DCpunk]

In the long term... the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything.

He is in the short term as well. If he isn't holding weekly meetings and getting serious updates, not to mention actual PRESENTATIONS OF THE ACTUAL PRODUCT AND WHERE IT IS IN DEVELOPMENT, then he's at least 90% at fault, period.

[Multiplex]

Yes sure, what EXACTLY has the management team (co headed by Brad) done so terribly that Brad is suddenly Hitler, this is what no one seems to be able to answer? It reminds me of during development when all the worshipers loved everything he said and when I would ask for specifics, they couldnt tell me exactly what it was he had said. Does anyone actually know exactly why they hate Brad at this point and can you phrase it for me in a logical organized paragraph?

As I said in the other thread... he hasn't showed up for work, his company fell to shambles, 50 of his employees just got fired (in the parking lot), and his game sucks pretty bad. It's now finally been revealed that scripting tools for the map and mob AI were denied... and there was 1 (ONE!) QA person up until recently.

[DCpunk]

Yes sure, what EXACTLY has the management team (co headed by Brad) done so terribly that Brad is suddenly Hitler, this is what no one seems to be able to answer? It reminds me of during development when all the worshipers loved everything he said and when I would ask for specifics, they couldnt tell me exactly what it was he had said. Does anyone actually know exactly why they hate Brad at this point and can you phrase it for me in a logical organized paragraph?

I'm going to put it as simply as I can:

Brad has been mostly absent from the Sigil offices for 2+ years, and has only showed his face a few times in the last EIGHT MONTHS. He abandoned his own company. He abandoned his management team. He left in place a management team that was totally incapable of any decision making because the HMFIC was a close, personal friend of Brads- not because he was competent in the role. Brad and his management team left the rest of Sigil with no tools with which to do their jobs - they let them ad hoc everything. All the while he was hyping the product to the public and assuring us that SOE was never going to take over, all the while knowing full well that the game didn't even really exist aside from on paper, as well as knowing that Sigil was going bankrupt and that he would likely have to sell the game off to SOE. He lied to us, to his employees, and himself. He didn't even have the balls to head to the Sigil offices yesterday to fire his people himself nor the decency to apologize to them.

What more do you need to know?

[Krib]

I'm going to put it as simply as I can:

Brad has been mostly absent from the Sigil offices for 2+ years, and has only showed his face a few times in the last EIGHT MONTHS. He abandoned his own company. He abandoned his management team. He left in place a management team that was totally incapable of any decision making because the HMFIC was a close, personal friend of Brads- not because he was competent in the role. Brad and his management team left the rest of Sigil with no tools with which to do their jobs - they let them ad hoc everything. All the while he was hyping the product to the public and assuring us that SOE was never going to take over, all the while knowing full well that the game didn't even really exist aside from on paper, as well as knowing that Sigil was going bankrupt and that he would likely have to sell the game off to SOE. He lied to us, to his employees, and himself. He didn't even have the balls to head to the Sigil offices yesterday to fire his people himself nor the decency to apologize to them.

What more do you need to know?

About Brad?

That covers it, I think. Bye Brad!

About Vanguard? Quite a lot.

[Geldoff]

As I said in the other thread... he hasn't showed up for work, his company fell to shambles, 50 of his employees just got fired (in the parking lot), and his game sucks pretty bad. It's now finally been revealed that scripting tools for the map and mob AI were denied... and there was 1 (ONE!) QA person up until recently.

There are two sides to every story and unless you actually believe that Brad wanted this game to fail and wanted to put 50 people on the street, then all you have here is someone who made some bad decisions (most notibly it seems in the selection of the management that actually ran this game). I am not sure how having a business fail, makes one inharently evil, and once again I still dont see it.

I have been envolved in start ups a few times and have had my cardboard box handed to me with no notice on more then one occasion. I was often irritated that the endevor failed and I would also blame management for almost everyone of those failures (that employee letter could almost perfectly describe the similar experiences I have had). However, I never saw the people I worked for as EVIL, simply flawed. That might be the real answer here, all this hatred is becuase someone who so many diefied and worshiped unquesiontintly for so many years has turned out to be human and capable of making misstakes. Its an ugly awakening I am sure, but being human and making misstakes, hardly makes him Evil?

[Flipsyde]

Yes sure, what EXACTLY has the management team (co headed by Brad) done so terribly that Brad is suddenly Hitler, this is what no one seems to be able to answer? It reminds me of during development when all the worshipers loved everything he said and when I would ask for specifics, they couldnt tell me exactly what it was he had said. Does anyone actually know exactly why they hate Brad at this point and can you phrase it for me in a logical organized paragraph?

My biggest problem with Brad was simply the fact that he spoke like the game was the second comming. Then when it was pointed out that the game was flawed, we heard "Its gonna get better." Then we heard that the game was released only 3 months ahead of schedule and if we waited for just a couple of months everything would be in place that they said upon release. Then it was "Well, shucks, guys...we really screwed up and released the game a year early. Its not really our faults...its the technology's fault...yeah thats it...the technology can't keep up....and the community is horrible...yeah thats it...the community dogged the game so bad...its all your fault." While the community thing may have been a little damning to the game, ultimately people left for a variety of reasons. And they all point back to Sigil.

Had Brad come out a month ago and stated that the game wasn't doing well and that Sigil could have done more to get the game off the ground, I think things would have gone over better. Instead, he did what management does, he blamed everyone but himself. His last apology post read like a tabliod front page where a celeb blames the media for their cocaine addiction instead of themselves. He was dishonest to the players. He built up expectations and then failed to deliver on a lot of them.

Now, I am frustrated with the game, but I am still going to play. I just don't have the same level of caring when Brad's name comes up. I never hung on his every word. In fact, I never listen to devs when they hype a game. I play it and then make my own opinion.

I am actually hoping that SOE can turn the game around and fix it. I am hoping that SOE learned from SWG and EQ1. I am cautiously optimistic about the game.

Does that make sense?

**EDIT - It should also be pointed out that Brad, as the CEO and mouth piece for the game, is the first person everyone is going to point at and blame. Thats human nature. People blame those that in the closest proximity to the problem.

[Kelenvor]

Yes sure, what EXACTLY has the management team (co headed by Brad) done so terribly that Brad is suddenly Hitler, this is what no one seems to be able to answer? It reminds me of during development when all the worshipers loved everything he said and when I would ask for specifics, they couldnt tell me exactly what it was he had said. Does anyone actually know exactly why they hate Brad at this point and can you phrase it for me in a logical organized paragraph?

For one thing, at least Hitler stay till the end. Brad jumped boat on his own company. He had a vision which wasn't too bad. The problem was that he didn't leave his vision in the hands of a competent management team. He left an incrediblely talented staff without the leadership or tools to complete the job.

Was his decision to sell out to SOE bad? No, it was a business decision. Was he not making sure that his business was functioning with the proper tools needed to make the game a success bad? Yes, and that's what people are pissed about. He spun out a lot of PR crap. In the end, he ended up being nothing but full of hot air.

[Geldoff]

I'm going to put it as simply as I can:

Brad has been mostly absent from the Sigil offices for 2+ years, and has only showed his face a few times in the last EIGHT MONTHS. He abandoned his own company. He abandoned his management team. He left in place a management team that was totally incapable of any decision making because the HMFIC was a close, personal friend of Brads- not because he was competent in the role. Brad and his management team left the rest of Sigil with no tools with which to do their jobs - they let them ad hoc everything. All the while he was hyping the product to the public and assuring us that SOE was never going to take over, all the while knowing full well that the game didn't even really exist aside from on paper, as well as knowing that Sigil was going bankrupt and that he would likely have to sell the game off to SOE. He lied to us, to his employees, and himself. He didn't even have the balls to head to the Sigil offices yesterday to fire his people himself nor the decency to apologize to them.

What more do you need to know?

I could take issue with most of what you say here, but the last sentence I can not take issue with and its enough. He should have been there, he should have looked them in the eye and you guys are right, the fact that he wasnt and didnt is disgusting and he should be ashamed.

[Multiplex]

There are two sides to every story and unless you actually believe that Brad wanted this game to fail and wanted to put 50 people on the street, then all you have here is someone who made some bad decisions (most notibly it seems in the selection of the management that actually ran this game). I am not sure how having a business fail, makes one inharently evil, and once again I still dont see it.

I have been envolved in start ups a few times and have had my cardboard box handed to me with no notice on more then one occasion. I was often irritated that the endevor failed and I would also blame management for almost everyone of those failures (that employee letter could almost perfectly describe the similar experiences I have had). However, I never saw the people I worked for as EVIL, simply flawed. That might be the real answer here, all this hatred is becuase someone who so many diefied and worshiped unquesiontintly for so many years has turned out to be human and capable of making misstakes. Its an ugly awakening I am sure, but being human and making misstakes, hardly makes him Evil?

Um... yeah... I didn't think you literally meant "Satan" earlier. No... I don't think that Brad is the anti-christ. Forget I replied at all.

[Kaching]

'You' in the English language is both plural and singular. It's definition is given by the pro-noun itself. None of you, is a plural reference sure, but 'not ONE of you' provides emphasis on the singular.

I can only assume neither you nor Spirit are english.
If I was you, and went on and on and on about grammar, I would make sure I understood the difference between "It's" and "Its".

And no, I'm not a native speaker, but even I know the difference.

[DCpunk]

I could take issue with most of what you say here, but the last sentence I can not take issue with and its enough. He should have been there, he should have looked them in the eye and you guys are right, the fact that he wasnt and didnt is disgusting and he should be ashamed.


Some things you can take issue with, but I think that the fact that the game RUNS like it's ad hoc is proof enough that it was put together that way.

[Chae668]

Um... yeah... I didn't think you literally meant "Satan" earlier. No... I don't think that Brad is the anti-christ. Forget I replied at all.
rofl. besides humorous replies, or me having fun in the volcano, i have stayed far away from all these threads.

can only get me in trouble:pirate:

[Hatto]

For one thing, at least Hitler stay till the end.
Did you ever hear about Godwin's Law? Not even 15 pages :P

[Chae668]

Did you ever hear about Godwin's Law? Not even 15 pages :P
heh. only 5 for me:D

make it 30 posts per page. less page jumping:pirate:

[Geldoff]

Some things you can take issue with, but I think that the fact that the game RUNS like it's ad hoc is proof enough that it was put together that way.


Look this is where I dissagree, the game came out pretty crappy especially in a performance sense. Is this Brads fault, ultimately as the big boss yes, but it simply means he made misstakes (unless again you believe he wanted it to be bad for some reason), everyone does, even you. Just becuae he created a game that is not very good doesnt mean he is a horrible person (its actually quite difficult to make a good game especially one with this scope).

On the other hand, not being there to look those people who were laid off because of his bad decisions in the eye, shake there hands, apologize and sympothize, well that does go a long way in convincing me he is in fact a pretty bad person (and it completely convinces me he is no leader).

[DCpunk]

Look this is where I dissagree, the game came out pretty crappy especially in a performance sense. Is this Brads fault, ultimately as the big boss yes, but it simply means he made misstakes (unless again you believe he wanted it to be bad for some reason), everyone does, even you. Just becuae he created a game that is not very good doesnt mean he is a horrible person.

On the other hand, not being there to look those people who were laid off because of his bad decisions in the eye, shake there hands, apologize and sympothize, well that does go a long way in convincing me he is fact a pretty bad person (and it completely convinces me he is no leader).

I wouldn't call being absent from your own company for 2+ years "a mistake". I call it "abdonment". Is this starting to make sense yet?

It's hard to make mistakes when you're not even there to make them.

[Geldoff]

I wouldn't call being absent from your own company for 2+ years "a mistake". I call it "abdonment". Is this starting to make sense yet?

It's hard to make mistakes when you're not even there to make them.

I dont know if thats true, just because someone is not in the office doesnt mean they are not working, this is especially true for a CEO or any C level officer.

Again I do not see anything personaly bad about Brad simply becuase Sigil failed as a business. Businesses fail all the time, sometimes they fail even when the CEO makes all the right decisions. However I do agree with you guys that he has much to answer for in terms of how he has handled this failure. Considering that he could not look the people who worked for him in the eye when they were laid off (again as the result of his decisions), I consider that pretty cowardly and shameful. Does he owe them a job or a profitable company, no. But he does owe them some dignity and respect and so far it seems he has failed to deliver on that.

[imready2go]

unless again you believe he wanted it to be bad for some reason

Actually, I'd say that's entirely possible. Not from the business standpoint that some argue, but rather, given his apparent behavior the last year or so, from an emotional standpoint. Everything described sounds a lot like Brad is having some serious emotional issues, in particular clinical depression. And when in that frame of mind, you can actually reach the point where you want to fail and find imaginative ways to do so. (I'm speaking from a perspective of experience here.) Basically, people do some funky shit when they're emotionally distressed, not the least of which are things like ignoring work they should be doing, not speaking to friends, etc.

Not that it in any way excuses what Brad did, but I think the man really needs to see a shrink.

[DCpunk]

I dont know if thats true, just because someone is not in the office doesnt mean they are not working, this is especially true for a CEO or any C level officer.

Again I do not see anything personaly bad about Brad simply becuase Sigil failed as a business. Businesses fail all the time, sometimes they fail even when the CEO makes all the right decisions. However I do agree with you guys that he has much to answer for in terms of how he has handled this failure. Considering that he could not look the people who worked for him in the eye when they were laid off (again as the result of his decisions), I consider that pretty cowardly and shameful. Does he owe them a job or a profitable company, no. But he does owe them some dignity and respect and so far it seems he has failed to deliver on that.

Look, he had so much capital for his project in the fan base it isn't even funny. He squandered it by refusing to drive his ship. THAT'S why Sigil failed. Not just because it was just another startup with nothing going for it. The company was chock full of talent and people who were ready to work like slaves for Brad, and by all accounts they did. This company failed because of an AWOL Captain. Nothing more, nothing less.

[DCpunk]

Actually, I'd say that's entirely possible. Not from the business standpoint that some argue, but rather, given his apparent behavior the last year or so, from an emotional standpoint. Everything described sounds a lot like Brad is having some serious emotional issues, in particular clinical depression. And when in that frame of mind, you can actually reach the point where you want to fail and find imaginative ways to do so. (I'm speaking from a perspective of experience here.) Basically, people do some funky shit when they're emotionally distressed, not the least of which are things like ignoring work they should be doing, not speaking to friends, etc.

Not that it in any way excuses what Brad did, but I think the man really needs to see a shrink.

I can speak from that same voice of experience, and agree 100%.

[kcxiv]

Anyone ever think that maybe SoE told Brad just to stay the **** home and collect a pay check. He was browsing the boards lastnight. I am sure they have a big time muzzle on him right now.


I just think he was told to stay as far away from the situation as possible for now.

[DCpunk]

Anyone ever think that maybe SoE told Brad just to stay the **** home and collect a pay check. He was browsing the boards lastnight. I am sure they have a big time muzzle on him right now.


I just think he was told to stay as far away from the situation as possible for now.


I'm certain that's the case. Just as I'm certain it's because he let the game wallow in the hands of incompetent management.

[Geldoff]

Look, he had so much capital for his project in the fan base it isn't even funny. He squandered it by refusing to drive his ship. THAT'S why Sigil failed. Not just because it was just another startup with nothing going for it. The company was chock full of talent and people who were ready to work like slaves for Brad, and by all accounts they did. This company failed because of an AWOL Captain. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok you say it failed becuase he was an absentee owner, if the scenario were different you might be here arguing it failed because he wanted to micromanage everything. These are decisions, the company failed, it happens, if he did anything criminal here I have not heard it so I dont see it as any different then any other small company failure (this isnt Enron where he was stealing from his employees, lying to the SEC and defrauding the State of California - get it in perspective is all I am saying).

As to his funding, in my opinion that is what doomed this game from the get go (and I said so back then too). It would be next to impossible to make a $30+ million dollar game profitable, for that you would NEED WoW levels of success. Once they were in that deep, they were doomed to failure and I think he (and anyone else who had access to the numbers) knew it. That might explain some of irratic depression oriented behavoir we all noticed.

I am not sure where any of it makes him any more Evil then any other CEO of a failed company. Again, his cowardly hiding from the actual layoff announcment I do find disgusting and I agree with you guys that he deserves a good deal of derision for that alone. But the company itself failing, it happens.

[DCpunk]

Ok you say it failed becuase he was an absentee owner, if the scenario were different you might be here arguing it failed because he wanted to micromanage everything. These are decisions, the company failed, it happens, if he did anything criminal here I have not heard it so I dont see it as any different then any other small company failure (this isnt Enron where he was stealing from his employees, lying to the SEC and defrauding the State of California - get it in perspective is all I am saying).

But see, we're NOT talking about micromanagement. We're talking about just walking away and letting whatever happens, happen. That's not a decision, that's a cop out. I don't think he did anything criminal, but I doubt many startups fail because the CEO gets so caught up in his own life that he forgets he has a company to run. He bailed on all of those people who banked on him, moved across the country for him, gave up lucrative careers elsewhere for him. That, in my opinion, is worthy of public crucifixtion (metaphorically speaking).

As to his funding, in my opinion that is what doomed this game from the get go (and I said so back then too). It would be next to impossible to make a $30+ million dollar game profitable, for that you would NEED WoW levels of success. Once they were in that deep, they were doomed to failure and I think he (and anyone else who had access to the numbers) knew it. That might explain some of irratic depression oriented behavoir we all noticed.

Possibly. I think it has a lot more to do with losing a close friend. But this is just speculation on both of our parts and should be taken with a whole brick of salt. ;)

I am not sure where any of it makes him any more Evil then any other CEO of a failed company. Again, his cowardly hiding from the actual layoff announcment I do find disgusting and I agree with you guys that he deserves a good deal of derision for that alone. But the company itself failing, it happens.

See above.

[Geldoff]

But see, we're NOT talking about micromanagement. We're talking about just walking away and letting whatever happens, happen. That's not a decision, that's a cop out. I don't think he did anything criminal, but I doubt many startups fail because the CEO gets so caught up in his own life that he forgets he has a company to run. He bailed on all of those people who banked on him, moved across the country for him, gave up lucrative careers elsewhere for him. That, in my opinion, is worthy of public crucifixtion (metaphorically speaking).



The absentee or “hands off” is a style of management, it is the opposite of Micromanagement and often the best to handle creative people. Its Voltaire again, you put the pieces in place, create the vision and stand back and watch as all the talented and creative people you put in place make it happen. I don’t know that this was the case, but I don’t know it wasn’t and I don’t know that Brads absence or perceived absence is what caused the company to fail anyway. However, even if it did, I would still chalk it up to a poor management decision.

It is somewhat Ironic that I am haiving this discussion with you here at the end LOL. Its been a long trip and I remember you from way back in the beginning of ’05 on the original Sigil boards (maybe even earlier). I remember being bummed I couldn’t attend a get together you had at your house (I don’t live too far away) and I remember hours of discussion about almost everything except this game, because we had no game to discuss back then. Its been a crazy ride for us all, the community, the company and its employees, everyone. The fact that it didn’t work out might be Brads fault, but it doesn’t make him a bad person (although the way he has handled it might)

[Choctaw]

I think McQuaid needed a true partner to pull him back when he tried to do too many things at once.

Classic examples of the success of this type of relationship:

Walt and Roy Disney. Walt was the idea man and Roy held the purse strings. Walt came up with things he wanted to do (a ton of things) and Roy was there to tell him it was a great idea but we're gonna shelve that for another year until the parks make a bit more money.

Michel Eisner and Frank Wells (also of Disney) had that same relationship.

Both times the Disney company took a hit when one of the two men in charge died.

To me it seems McQuaid had nobody to tell him that his ideas were good, but some were simply going to have to wait until an expansion. And by tell him, I mean tell him and have him listen to what they said.

[DCpunk]

The absentee or “hands off” is a style of management, it is the opposite of Micromanagement and often the best to handle creative people. Its Voltaire again, you put the pieces in place, create the vision and stand back and watch as all the talented and creative people you put in place make it happen. I don’t know that this was the case, but I don’t know it wasn’t and I don’t know that Brads absence or perceived absence is what caused the company to fail anyway. However, even if it did, I would still chalk it up to a poor management decision.

I would agree with you had he actually stopped in here and there to "watch", so to speak. Word on the street is that he didn't.

It is somewhat Ironic that I am haiving this discussion with you here at the end LOL. Its been a long trip and I remember you from way back in the beginning of ’05 on the original Sigil boards (maybe even earlier). I remember being bummed I couldn’t attend a get together you had at your house (I don’t live too far away) and I remember hours of discussion about almost everything except this game, because we had no game to discuss back then. Its been a crazy ride for us all, the community, the company and its employees, everyone. The fact that it didn’t work out might be Brads fault, but it doesn’t make him a bad person (although the way he has handled it might)

Yes, I suppose it's ironic indeed. And I KNEW I remembered your name for a reason. I definitely wish we could've met. Fozzik and (if you remember him) Havelock were there, as well as my most awesome girlfriend, emilyliam. There were a number of other cool S.V. and OVF folks there, as well as gamers who don't post here. We definitely had a great time. Just know that I will likely be having another get together sometime this summer (hopefully in mid July), and you will certainly be welcome to attend.

In the end, I think we agree, but for partially different reasons. I hope all the folks who gave their blood, sweat, and tears to this project all the best. They deserve all the best for their efforts.

[DCpunk]

To me it seems McQuaid had nobody to tell him that his ideas were good, but some were simply going to have to wait until an expansion. And by tell him, I mean tell him and have him listen to what they said.


Honestly, it sounds to me like a lot of people tried to tell him that. It seems the only person Brad was listening to was Brad.

[Geldoff]

Yes, I suppose it's ironic indeed. And I KNEW I remembered your name for a reason. I definitely wish we could've met. Fozzik and (if you remember him) Havelock were there, as well as my most awesome girlfriend, emilyliam. There were a number of other cool S.V. and OVF folks there, as well as gamers who don't post here. We definitely had a great time. Just know that I will likely be having another get together sometime this summer (hopefully in mid July), and you will certainly be welcome to attend.

In the end, I think we agree, but for partially different reasons. I hope all the folks who gave their blood, sweat, and tears to this project all the best. They deserve all the best for their efforts.

Yep, I actually even remember the pictures hehe. I wont go into why I couldnt attend, but believe me I wanted too. Wow so many people so jazzed about a game that was still little more then a power point presentation back then hehe (god were wierd). Ohh yeah Havelock, was he that guy who worked at the justice department, had alot of fun with him back in the day. If you do another get together, PM me, hopefully I can attend this one, but what would the common thread be . . . still Sigil & Vangaurd? Could be fun, sort of a wake . . . LOL.

[Ezra]

Tagad being the one quoted as saying "I think I'll buy a house with my money from stock" as half of Sigil packed up their shit and went looking for a new job.

Bill "Tagad" Fisher = Twat

[DCpunk]

Yep, I actually even remember the pictures hehe. I wont go into why I couldnt attend, but believe me I wanted too. Wow so many people so jazzed about a game that was still little more then a power point presentation back then hehe (god were wierd). Ohh yeah Havelock, was he that guy who worked at the justice department, had alot of fun with him back in the day. If you do another get together, PM me, hopefully I can attend this one, but what would the common thread be . . . still Sigil & Vangaurd? Could be fun, sort of a wake . . . LOL.

Common thread? Summer, bar-b-q, and beer/liquor. Do you need more than that? :D

And yes, that's Havelock.

P.S. ask the people who attended last summer - I make some ass kicking ribs.

[Abelian75]

I'm bored trying to defend my knowledge of my own language now. Move on.

Man, I don't think I've seen this level of sheer density in a human being on an internet forum in a long time. That's saying quite a lot. The complete lack of reading comprehension on your part goes deeper than I would have thought possible in one who is so certain of their own intelligence. I especially like how the first definition in that dictionary link exactly describes the way Nino is using the term "not one" to refer to multiple people, yet even this careful definiton eludes you.

The sentence isn't even slightly difficult to understand, yet you manage to not only misunderstand it, but also get all self-righteous about your own apparently unique, full understanding of the language. Subsequently, you link to a proof that you are wrong (not that one was even needed, your incorrectness being so basic and obvious) while continuing to believe that you are right. Bravo.

[Blitzburg]

Honestly, it sounds to me like a lot of people tried to tell him that. It seems the only person Brad was listening to was Brad.

I find it hard to lay all the blame with Brad - whether he was there or not. I seem to remember that you worked in the software industry from your previous posts.

Do you really think that Brad was solely in charge of all hiring decisions? Does the CEO typically manage projects at the engineering level? These were the huge mistakes, in my estimation. How did hiring 50 artists and 1 QA engineer not raise any eyebrows in the engineering group?

As you mentioned earlier in the thread, it appears that this project was developed "ad hoc." I agree. How did they develop a game without any internal milestones and benchmarks? Did they not have Microsoft Project? Did they not have a Features Requirements Document? Did they not compare the amount of time required to code certain features against the Microsoft Project file to determine whether some of the features should have been cut? At some level, some of the blame must go to the engineering managers/project managers who either did not properly schedule coding milestones or realistically manage feature creep...

[DCpunk]

I find it hard to lay all the blame with Brad - whether he was there or not. I seem to remember that you worked in the software industry from your previous posts.

I don't lay ALL of the blame on him, but I do lay the majority. It's my opinion that when you start up a company with a fair amount of your own capital to build a project that's YOUR BABY, then you get involved on something more than a nebulous level.

Do you really think that Brad was solely in charge of all hiring decisions? Does the CEO typically manage projects at the engineering level? These were the huge mistakes, in my estimation. How did hiring 50 artists and 1 QA engineer not raise any eyebrows in the engineering group?

No, I don't think he was solely in charge for all hiring decisions. But as a CEO, if he didn't raise an eyebrow when he saw no QA TEAM on a budget report, then I'm going to drop most of the blame on him. Every ship needs a captain. This captain was off flying kites.

I don't disagree with the rest of your post at all.

[Fingis]

I find it hard to lay all the blame with Brad - whether he was there or not.

Brad was there. He was hiding in the bathroom stall with the hooker he had on Sigil's payroll and a mound of blow the size of a small pomeranian.

[Choctaw]

Brad was there. He was hiding in the bathroom stall with the hooker he had on Sigil's payroll and a mound of blow the size of a small pomeranian.

Okay, uncalled for, but still very funny. The pomeranian thing is just hysterical.

[imready2go]

He was hiding in the bathroom stall with the hooker he had on Sigil's payroll and a mound of blow the size of a small pomeranian.

If that's his excuse for not being more involved with the project, I can forgive him. I mean, come on, sluts and coke? Score!

[timor]

The last couple lines here are truly ****ed up.

Seriously what planet do you live on?? This happens every friggin day in the world of business. :volcano:

[Motvin]

he let the game wallow in the hands of incompetent management.

Is there such a thing as a competent manager? Because if there is I've never worked for one. Most places where I've worked it's better if the managers leave the people who do the actual work the hell alone. Sadly, it's when they get involved that things get messed up. It sounds like this was the case as Sigil. Brad maybe was doing more harm than good when he was at work. Maybe he's not very good in that role.

[rhagz]

Is there such a thing as a competent manager? Because if there is I've never worked for one. Most places where I've worked it's better if the managers leave the people who do the actual work the hell alone. Sadly, it's when they get involved that things get messed up. It sounds like this was the case as Sigil. Brad maybe was doing more harm than good when he was at work. Maybe he's not very good in that role.

A manager doesn't have to be hands on and in the trenches to do his job. What he needs to do is make it possible for people to do their job. Hiring one QA guy and refusing to allow modern scripting tools doesn't help.

[Speaker]

Depends on which phase. Most of the complaints in phase 2 were very general and people had a hard time pegging what was wrong with the game, and I'll admit that something was wrong. However, I think they misdiagnosed the problem and prescribed chemotherapy to treat bronchitis. So the original problems lingered and they ended up creating more problems.

Also, I think a lot of people thought Vanguard was going to be something it wasn't. When I got into beta, it was what I had expected. Yes, it was buggy, it was missing some features, and the world was smaller than I thought it would be, but it was for the most part what I had expected. They got too many people into the beta who were expecting something different, these people complained, and, instead of sticking to what they had worked on, they tried to change things. So, instead of a great hardcore game, they made a mediocre hybrid. Now, I won't say that, if they had stuck to their guns, they would have a larger subscriber base today, but I would still be playing the game. That I do know.


Nov 2005 Beta 2.0 was a real trip. Games was difficult for most people to play on even with high end systems. Constant chunk crashes. Soloing was near impossible. Falling throgh the world, least we didn't die. Group hunts were zerk-fest, mobs were mowed down. Think our 1st L-50 needed 280 million points when a high l-40 mob gave under 15k exp. Cash flow was very poor, with the exception of the rod in the the snake quest, think the highest selling item was something like 79 cents. No wonder there was only 80-125 of us on at any one time. Still to me, the game was in better shape in beta 2.0 and 2.5 then today. Once beta 3.0 hit, it was all down hill from there....

The famous survey, that made zero sense...... I knew we were in trouble then. Over all I believed no matter who said what on the forum, nobody listened. The design team always seemed fractured, and it look like no one person was in control, and of course that seems to have been the case. The game we ended up with tried to appeal to two opposite group of players, and what you see is what you get. be interesting to see how the game design goes. Softcore, hardcore or EQ2.5.....

[Speaker]

Isn't the CEO ultimately responsible for the management practices of his management team?

Yes and no, it really depends on the people funding the project. The golden rule "who owns the gold makes the rules" goes into effect. The investers had to have a clue, and very possible removed him from day to day control back at beta 2.0. Anyway just because a person has the title doesn't mean he has the skills to run a company.

If Brad had funded the game and have majority control, yes it falls on his shoulders, chances are, he was at best a minority stock owner nothing more. In either case he's the captain of a ship that ran aground and sank.

[Soluss]

A manager doesn't have to be hands on and in the trenches to do his job. What he needs to do is make it possible for people to do their job. Hiring one QA guy and refusing to allow modern scripting tools doesn't help.

What I don't get is ...they (Brad) has always bolsted about what awesome tools they had in place to make content easy and quick to create and implement. Yeah I know we were told alot of things...but this one I cannot understand at all.

[Ominous]

Nov 2005 Beta 2.0 was a real trip. Games was difficult for most people to play on even with high end systems. Constant chunk crashes. Soloing was near impossible. Falling throgh the world, least we didn't die. Group hunts were zerk-fest, mobs were mowed down. Think our 1st L-50 needed 280 million points when a high l-40 mob gave under 15k exp. Cash flow was very poor, with the exception of the rod in the the snake quest, think the highest selling item was something like 79 cents. No wonder there was only 80-125 of us on at any one time. Still to me, the game was in better shape in beta 2.0 and 2.5 then today. Once beta 3.0 hit, it was all down hill from there....

The famous survey, that made zero sense...... I knew we were in trouble then. Over all I believed no matter who said what on the forum, nobody listened. The design team always seemed fractured, and it look like no one person was in control, and of course that seems to have been the case. The game we ended up with tried to appeal to two opposite group of players, and what you see is what you get. be interesting to see how the game design goes. Softcore, hardcore or EQ2.5.....

I got in beta 2 on December 22. I was lucky enough to be able to run the game on an Athlon XP 1800+, Radeon 9800 Pro, and 1 Gig of RAM without too many problems. I saw the tail end of the 8 man groups. I do remember falling through the world many many times and my personal favorite the "rolling" chunk crashes. Even with all the bugs though, I enjoyed that game more as well.

[Napolleon]

well the game failed because brad became a hypocrit and went back to being smedley's lapdog.

not only that but the numerous HUGE bugs and imbalances:
crafting ruling the UR market
crafted items majorly better than can be gotten
no raids
DUPE
DUPE
no end game content.
game being overly easy and WOWish

[Creasian]

Saddest part is that we all know that some of the most critical and hard working people at sigil, such as programmers, were the biggest part let go. That we wont acually know who because they were too hard at work and perhaps never privy enough to publically take credit for anything they did.

This wasnt a big company really at all. There dosent exist a reason why a small "family" company cant go out like one as well with the CEO able to tell them what is happening, why, and let himself truely experience THEIR reality.

Between you and me I think brad got/is depressed. Talking at least a year's back on this call. I think he got depressed about being depressed and just sunk into submission to fear and being out of control. I think the overall talent he obtained overwelmed even him and jeff and him were unable to handle the pressure of it all honestly.

On a business outlook this move was needed. However when you get down to the nitty gritty a small company of all in-house development got outsourced for good to a large company with oogles of resources and their own teams to do the work.

This mmorpg might have a solid cult following like how EQ currently does but I dont think it will ever truely recover from all of this. The game's reputation itself is effected by the actions being taken and many will take this as a omen who dont already enjoy the game that it isnt worth the shot to try now.

About 5 years I have followed this game. From before it had a name or even a sigil.com forum to when most of the force got laid off and the game absorbed into a different entity. Surreal.

[Napolleon]

About 5 years I have followed this game. From before it had a name or even a sigil.com forum to when most of the force got laid off and the game absorbed into a different entity. Surreal.

good summary of events, and from going to fanguard meeting these people and knowing some of the people and have met them that got laid off, the just huge takeback of it all and how they did not fulfill any of those initial promises and third gen concepts just baffles me.

RIP jerrith, elidroth and KJ.

[Creasian]

good summary of events, and from going to fanguard meeting these people and knowing some of the people and have met them that got laid off, the just huge takeback of it all and how they did not fulfill any of those initial promises and third gen concepts just baffles me.

RIP jerrith, elidroth and KJ.

I remember blasting my way with a crapload of others to Stratic's IRC hosted greet n meet events where we got to ask these people questions. Back in the freaken early stages. Also remember the first fanguard and how i wanted to go so bad hehe.

I expect for some to say I am stupid but for the love of the racoon god if they had stayed on the original design concept and did their best we would be talking about a "work in progress" rather than a silly "game with potential" when we refer to VG.

I could sustained a horrid bug issue if I could see where we were really heading in a mmorpg. However we will never truely know what happened to this triple A mmorpg project either.

[Napolleon]

yea they should have stayed with the original concept, and actually had a official forum, actually communicated with us etc etc...

[Creasian]

yea they should have stayed with the original concept, and actually had a official forum, actually communicated with us etc etc...

Oh well. We still got spellborn....


Gah.. no way to say it but this entire series of events over these 5 years has acually pissed me off at the genre alittle more! Brad always said the industry didnt need any more 30 million dollar failures..but what can you do?

Many of us want to hate wow as if it was microsoft and Vg was our linux escape. Only unlike that senario where linux is outpacing MS for it's purpose VG might have acually hurt the genre due to all of these happenings.

I saw this coming but not this brazen of a take over.

[Napolleon]

Oh well. We still got spellborn....


Gah.. no way to say it but this entire series of events over these 5 years has acually pissed me off at the genre alittle more! Brad always said the industry didnt need any more 30 million dollar failures..but what can you do?

Many of us want to hate wow as if it was microsoft and Vg was our linux escape. Only unlike that senario where linux is outpacing MS for it's purpose VG might have acually hurt the genre due to all of these happenings.

I saw this coming but not this brazen of a take over.

yea the industry as a whole since ao/eq/uo/eve is very dissapointing to the point where i am almost done with mmo's. its whiny crying instant gratification, WOW universe now where every new mmo is easy, unchallenging dull, unoriginal or just plain out a WOW clone. the mmog field is a cesspool of just horrid events that happen until the game you play and make friends in dumps like vanguard did.


I miss the old days of eq vs uo... two mos that were good, hard, challenging and you actually got a sense of accomplishment in your character. unlike nowadays where BAm your max level and bored to hell in under a month.

[Martys]

Apologies for interjecting this when it's a spent point, but I actually know the answer to the "not one of you" question. I used to be a proof reader of academic textbooks. In a way both camps are correct. The comment can be formally analyzed thus: "Not one" is a negation of "one" which is singular, so it's negation is also. "Of you" is a prepositional phrase modifying "one" and implies a selection of a singular instance from the pool "you", which would by necessity be more than one. However, to find whether or not the verb following would be singular or plural, you disregard all prepositional phrases (rules of grammar.) So you test thus eg. "not one is" (correct) vs."not one are" (incorrect.) So "not one has lost his job" is correct. Therefore the comment is structurally singular but modified to imply that "one" is a selection made from more than one.

It's not often I can contribute something beyond opinion... thanks for bearing with me.