The VG Needs to PVP Fix This Now List

[Founder Apache]

Now that SOE is financially and intellectually in control of VG I think it's a good time to start seeing if unlike SIgil's folks if SOE's folks actually read these forums. It's already been stated that no class specific forums will exist on the SOE VG main site - perhaps pvp will fall this way as well.

Put your input on this thread as to what you feel needs to be fixed as of immediately for pvp subs to increase: Here's my 2 cents enjoy


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Here are some overall improvements VG needs yesterday - only plugging one class here THE WARRIOR - and just throwing in some overall tidbits for the pvp environment that we all have to deal with which if implemented would give classes like the warrior far more viability:


1. Reduce healing effects in pvp by 50% to match 50% reduced damage in pvp.

2. Making a working mmorpg is a learning experience. Hence, learn what other successful mmorpgs did to handle certain pvp balancing issues. See what you can come up with.

3. Cancel speed effects while in combat. Hence you MUST be out of combat to utilize speed effects.

4. Guards defend their own - no faction grinding no bs cover up for pve server residual effects on our pvp servers. You will not be able to pk or even walk into our town without going to war with out guards. The more pk'ers show up the more guards come to defend plain and simple. Easy mode is over.

5. PvP kills of players within 5 levels are rewardable in the form of points that can be invested in skill upgrades of present skills, new skills from trees that can be unlocked, attribute increases.

6. PvP kill points are shared among team mates just like experience. In other words, you solo a 50 you get x points, you and 5 friends solo a 50 those points are distributed as 1/6th their original value.

7. A person has no pvp value in points or dropped coin for 15 minutes after a kill.

8. A Bard now has stronger magic in the invis category than a sorcerer, psionicist, blood mage...Bards pulsating invis is still a problem - INVIS NEEDS TO CANCEL IN COMBAT for everyone PERIOD. VG has too many in combat abilities staying active because of pve server fall out - Fix this garbage.

************************************************** *****
How WoW handled balancing pure tanks (no magic) vs hybrids, casters, and healers:

a. Gave warrior the option to talent tree in a skill called mortal strike which massively reduced healing effectiveness.

b. Gave warrior an ability to reflect damage back on caster.

c. Gave warrior an ability to resist fear and heighten stun resists.

d. Gave warriors an area of effect fear (piercing howl was it?)

e. Warrior had an aoe debilitating shout effect - could break stealth or invis for VG would b realistic

How Dark Age of Camelot handled balancing pure tanks (no magic) vs hybrids, casters, and healers:

a. Gave tanks potentially the highest resists in the game

b. Gave tanks the ability to put points earned from pvp into building abilities that lessened the timer of any form of CC (crowd control)

c. Gave tanks an innate ability to autimatically reduce CC effects by 25%

d. Shield slam is 9 seconds but a good investment in shield skills have to be made to aquire this - bread and butter of all tanks.

Going to mainline this thread - I think it has validity

[WarZephyr]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except the bard thing.

take away the invis in combat from a bard and you wont see any bards on a pvp server. you dont understand that we have the shittiest dmg in the game, and until that gets fixed i dont think that bards should suck any more then they already do.

Also the the statement about canceling speed while in combat, thats the dumbest idea i have ever seen on these forums. sorry to sound so abrubt, but theres far more severe issues with pvp then that.

*edit* I read some of your other posts about fixing pvp, and i think most of your ideas are awesome, u deff know wut your talking about, but those ideas that i mentioned i dont agree with. :)

[Miff]

Don't agree with the invis thing or removing speed in combat.
Bards have worse AC than a Sorcerer and the worst DPS of any melee class (pretty sure that even Disciples beat Bards in DPS). Taking away all of their defense like that is just going to kill the class even more.

To fix invis just make it so that you don't lose your target when they go invis unless you lose line of site to them for more than 3 seconds. Done.

Speed isn't a problem. Monks can easily outrun any bard at level 50 with only self buffs. Rangers can almost outrun bards with buffs + mount.
Just wait for mounted combat and Bards will all start whining.

Healing effect definitely needs reducing though.

Warrior definitely needs to be buffed somehow, avoid giving them healing if possible.

[Founder Apache]

Wouldn't hurt therefore to swap out pulsating invis for good dps, give the bard excellent mana, health, endurance regen songs....

|I stand by the pulsating invis. It seems utterly silly to see for example, a dark elf bard, his charmed guard, and his Haelfur caster distractor pet pulsating in and out of invis and just tearing folks up - personally if I were a bard I'd want:

Best mana regen + endurance regen in the game
Best speed in the game (with the right gear I do believe they are well over 300% to speed at "end game")
Give them excellent avoidance - if they are holding an instrument they should be darn well good at avoiding swings and damage period ;p
Up their melee dps so they are able to solo effectively i.e., should be able to solo a low end 3 dot, and chain 2 dots non stop within 2 levels of their present level WITHOUT uber gear...
If you've read my other posts about bards, I've already mentioned they deserve an aoe CC -


Bard Group Invis:

I hate supporting a nerf stick for a class. In the case of pulsating invis - which I just see as silly I am sorry to say invis is just overdone in VG period - but I will agree that swapping one out for another - the above would be a great start...I dare say a ton of folks roll a bard solely for the advantage and cool factor of the level 22 group invis song - there are better ways to make a class interesting - I just don't see pulsating group invis as one of them.

Run Speed in PVP:

This is one of the few mmorpgs where folks are so dependant on movement speed for kiting opponents thatwithout it they'd have to literally relearn how to face an enemy. What would happen in speed canceled in combat|?

Warriors would have a much better chance at considering themselves as a pvp class - no way in heck these guys can catch a kiter

Paladins would have a much better chance at considering themselves as a pvp class - they just can't catch kiters too many resists and what not they mostly can't even slow one down

Dreadknights have shadowstep so not much would change for them but it would still level the playing field far more than it is now

Monks do not run as fast as bards at level 50 (no offense but I got a chuckle from an above poster over this one)

Rogues cannot port like a |DK (they get a tiny shadowstep version in melee range) so this will level the playing field for them

Rangers - since 75% of their single target crowd control attemps get resisted this would again level the playing field though rangers would have a distinct advantage here

Bard - If you've read my other posts on bards - they should be busy on the melee dps assist train, using aoe crowd control, and twisting effective mana and energy regen for their group...

Cleric - levels the field again...

Disciple - Huge difference for these folks - heck you might start seeing them logging in once they realize they won't get kited to death anymore

Blood Mage - Same as cleric

Shaman - If you've read my other posts they should have far more optionos for higher mitigation and dps from their patrons - they should beable to be battle worthy without running for their dps....without kiting they will have to relearn how to play - and with the right boosts should be able to do so and still love their class the way it SHOULD have been made...

Casters - well here's where it hurts - the glass cannon comes back into effect if a psi can't use a 2 min sprint as he dumps dots on someone and waits for the ticks to count down/sorcs due so much burst but really rely too much on chaos volley and the residual damage it does to themselves toward end game but al in all they were never a speed class to begin with so more playing field leveled out here as well - necros pet's were insanely fast as was - past kiters wil have to learn better methods of fighting these masters of conjuration especially if they were boosted the way I believe they should be (see other posts)

|And oh the druid - here's the class so many roll because they see what a doggy with lightening bolts and mediocre heals can do to a class...with many awesome changes this class could undergo they wil not need to depend on in game speed mechanics to do anything.

Point is folks got used to some pretty silly stuff in VG, and for the fear of losing even that during nurf bat swinging they defend till their last dying breath every bit of ability they have; pulsating group invis while sorcs/bms/psionicists are now fair game with translucent invis/massive speed in combat....

SOE I hope you folks boost these classes and dump things that just add to a sillyness factor - we can have a darker more raw version of EQ2 in a Vanguard package - I really think it's possible...just need to start focusing on making these classes do what they were most likely intended to do in the first place -

i.e., BE UNIQUE WITH FEW IF ANY CROSS-OVER CAPABILITIES

I should be able to count on two fingers who is fast, who can stealth, and who can invis - if anyone.

Port into Khal on Varking and during a pvp bout you'll practically smell the smoke of gold burning from the usage of invis and see invis clickies, pulsating invis being spammed to arguable and exploitably force players to lose their target every time a opponent swings at them (sigh)...and see a blank battlefield with everyone magically fighting each other from the shadows.

Real battle is Helm's Deep in Lord of the Rings, William Wallace leading Scotland to small victory after victory against the English armies of Longshanks, an invading Mongolian horde being pressed into the sea by the tenacity of the Japanese samurai, need I mention 300 Spartans back to back defending the future of Greek democracy against wave after wave of Persian soldiers...

Then you have Vanguard - everyone working for that invis group so they can grief better - and a bunch of folks frustrated and logging off due to a complete disatisfaction of a class they were told would be part of a saga of heroes.....

Just my two cents.

[VoltaicRZ]

1. Reduce healing effects in pvp by 50% to match 50% reduced damage in pvp.

Well I applaud your creativeness but from your post I can tell you have no high end 45-50 pvp experience.

A 50 healer flash heals for 2200-2400~, 1.8 second cast or so.

A 50 druid with bloodmage jolt will instant cast calamity nuke you for 7-10k damage. Self buffed at 50 as one of the best geared shamans on the server I have 5k-5.2k self buffed. Dying in 1 button click to a nuke is just stupid. It's not just druids that can 1shot or 2shot you. Rangers can rhaz helm melee special you, and then windsong you. Sorcerers can 2shot you, Bloodmages can 2-3 shot people. Phoenix shamans and necromancers can 2 shot...etc etc. Anyone with jolt and a high damage attack can 1-2shot people, but the druid definitly takes the cake.

Secondly healing already has totally rediculous counters in the game. Paladins get Deny Life -75 % healing debuff, and now clerics get a -80 % healing debuff for a class that lore wise, shouldn't be getting debuffs (life scourges are the role of dk/nec, not holy defenders.) Spells that totally screw healing shouldn't even be in the game. 40-50 % is the max I would say is ballanced for a healing debuff, and if anything warriors deserve this attack not clerics or paladins.

But I guess thats what happens when you have 1 QA tester and hes not even working on the pvp servers. Which is one of the reasons why all the pvp guilds are Hemorrhaging players and nobody with pvp vision is ever able to get anything done due to fear of "Messing up the live servers.

[david99]

Well I applaud your creativeness but from your post I can tell you have no high end 45-50 pvp experience.

A 50 healer flash heals for 2200-2400~, 1.8 second cast or so.

A 50 druid with bloodmage jolt will instant cast calamity nuke you for 7-10k damage. Self buffed at 50 as one of the best geared shamans on the server I have 5k-5.2k self buffed. Dying in 1 button click to a nuke is just stupid. It's not just druids that can 1shot or 2shot you. Rangers can rhaz helm melee special you, and then windsong you. Sorcerers can 2shot you, Bloodmages can 2-3 shot people. Phoenix shamans and necromancers can 2 shot...etc etc. Anyone with jolt and a high damage attack can 1-2shot people, but the druid definitly takes the cake.

Secondly healing already has totally rediculous counters in the game. Paladins get Deny Life -75 % healing debuff, and now clerics get a -80 % healing debuff for a class that lore wise, shouldn't be getting debuffs (life scourges are the role of dk/nec, not holy defenders.) Spells that totally screw healing shouldn't even be in the game. 40-50 % is the max I would say is ballanced for a healing debuff, and if anything warriors deserve this attack not clerics or paladins.

But I guess thats what happens when you have 1 QA tester and hes not even working on the pvp servers. Which is one of the reasons why all the pvp guilds are Hemorrhaging players and nobody with pvp vision is ever able to get anything done due to fear of "Messing up the live servers.

Agreed. There are plenty of classes that do way more damage than any heal could do - and that's AFTER the 50% dmg reduction, and not even taking into account criticals etc...

If it was a level playing field to begin with then yes, I would agree; but that is not the case. When healers can heal instantly for 3k, and critical for 7k+ health, then maybe you have a case.

Implementing the above would simply screw the game (and PVP) up even more. And what for? To try and balance PVP at level 20? No thanks.

I also disagree with speed affects no longer working in combat. Again, there are plenty of counters against classes with speed eg stun, mez, root, buffs, debuffs/purges (once they get them working), and items off the market (100% run speed anyone?), equipment etc... It's too easy to counter already IMO.

And the guard thing sounds like WOW - maybe it will work on team vs team servers but spawning guards to fight PVPers = easymode IMO. I chose a FFA PVP server for a reason, PVE => that way.

[WarZephyr]

Alright heres the thing.

i play a bard, i DEPEND on my invis.

I can not 1 shot ANY class

I can not 2 shot ANY class

hell, i can not even 10 shot ANY class.


To fix pvp, soe HAS to first fix the classes that are the worst. The thing sigil did not understand was the difference between pvp and pve, so we pvpers were ****ed.

So my best idea of balancing classes would be to either start out by incredibly increasing the damage from a bard (disicple, sucky class) so that if i went up to a sorcerer, dark knight or cleric i could actually have a ****ing chance at killing them! I am getting so pissed of atm because i have to run from every fight practically, thats not fun. I want people to see bard and be like oh shit. thats the way i am with every class, why cant it be the same for other ppl.

So one way: increase damage a hella lot more for the shit classes and keep the other classes the same.

Option 2 would be to nerf EVERY class. period.


uughhh, i cant wait till this game has working pvp, i sware this game has the potential to feel like daoc pvp or l2 because in those 2 games every class could pretty much kill every class.

Cheers

[Aristotle]

PVP as a whole is hugely suffering from a lack of balance. I applaud the attempts here at rectifying the obvious imbalances but for any longevity this game needs a brand new approach at balance.

A quantitative balancing team needs to look at all classes as a whole after they decide what is a compelling pvp fight.

Is it a 10 second battle, a 20 second battle, or a 1minute battle? (if 10second battles are compelling then keep the stupidly high damage done in pvp where casters can one shot each other at best etc )

Is it a kite ur ass off game , or a relatively stationary fight vs fight game where people can actually use some of their 12 pages of abilities? (learn from the other pvp mmo's, once in combat speed should drop, so that people can actually fight each other and not have a game focused around kiting)

Should casters have bazookas with 25 range, and melee classes given knives with 5 range? (that is sadly is how it is atm)

Should most of the people in an encounter be crowd controled (sitting around mezzed or rooted) for the majority of the battle? (learn from other mmo pvp games, crowd control is bad for gaming, as no one wants to do nothing the whole fight which is what the game will be eventually if not fixed. There is good reason why the very compelling fps shooters do not have any real form of crowd control, and pvp mmo games are understanding that)



Once the new team decide on what is a compelling battle then they need to look at classes and assign a value to their abilities for pvp , and strictly for pvp:

Each class gets 1000 points say. Each ability or 'type' of ability is set a certain amount of points. For example:

High dps 550, medium dps 350, low dps 150

Long duration mez 400, medium 200, short 100

Healing abilities high 400, medium 200, low 100 (weight according to how well a class can heal)

Range: long 400 (25range)

Root long duration 250, short 150

Snares 200

Speed 100, speed for group 200

Buffs: self 20 each, group 50 each

Etc

The above is a huge simplification, but the gist is there and is very important when working out a quantitative format for class balance. It will ensure that one class cannot get everything (cough clerics) and that other classes with very little get a boost (cough disciples).


Anyways if any of the new guard are reading then please do try to balance the pvp arena because it will only give the game legitimacy with the core gamers and ensure longevity.


NB: Do not fall into the trap of thinking that expansions are key to longevity. I like eq1 a lot but left 5yrs ago, and there's no way I would consider going back to it with its multitude of expansions, like no way I being a new customer would want to have to deal with 80 lvls and a ton of expansions just to compete. There is a massive client base ready to be tapped so keep the game compelling and attainable for everyone and only give a small advantage to the super hardcore gamers.

[Founder Apache]

I understand the points being made - yes I realize lowering the effect of heals would effect a majority of players but would hurt end gamers that small percentage - considering those heals aren't convering the damge at 50 anyway, it makes sense that therein lies another problem.

Without debating back and forth, since I already threw up my opinion on this post :o and as tempting as it was to argue why your own race/team of guards should defend the innocent (there are other games than wow where this occurs btw) - I will just say that I hope SOE gets it in gear and can pick up the pieces. If not - the ====> pve is that way folks will be battling 1,000,000 teenagers in Age of Conan doing the I pwnzered you thing and the rest ofus will divide into Gods and Heroes, Warhammer, Chronicles of Spellborn and the like.

I wish you all good luck - you few who replied seem to have fairly different view points as well :) and yes I've seen level 50 en masse' pvp just an fyi but I'm not here to get in a pissing contest :) the damage is broken period but then so is most of the game i.e., the missing Brad McQuaid's behaviors have confirmed what the devs knew 15 months ago.

I'm sticking it out for now an dealing with it, even rolled up a noob warrior so I could feel first hand what it was like to not be farmed at Beranaid Hills for once hehe.

How about instead of focusing on the critiquing my post :) we focus on throwing idea changes out that we feel are mandatory now for pvp and hope that 1 Sony dev has a chance to look?

/thank you in advance

[BigPapaBruno]

IHow about instead of focusing on the critiquing my post :) we focus on throwing idea changes out that we feel are mandatory now for pvp and hope that 1 Sony dev has a chance to look?

/thank you in advance


Give clerics more damage :) this game just became fun for us

We are missing:
Aoe stun
Aoe nukes
Manaburn

[iji]

3. Cancel speed effects while in combat. Hence you MUST be out of combat to utilize speed effects.


No. This isn’t EQ 2. "In combat speed reduction” is just another way of saying 'game induced gimpness for the carebears.'

If you don't want to fight a fast player, don't attack a Bard. And no, a warrior without a speed buff should not be able to run faster than a Bard, simply because he shot an arrow at him. It doesn’t make any sense, it's just an excuse for those that like to be able to run away form everyone when they get attacked, ala EQ2

[Founder Apache]

3. Cancel speed effects while in combat. Hence you MUST be out of combat to utilize speed effects.


No. This isn’t EQ 2. "In combat speed reduction” is just another way of saying 'game induced gimpness for the carebears.'

If you don't want to fight a fast player, don't attack a Bard. And no, a warrior without a speed buff should not be able to run faster than a Bard, simply because he shot an arrow at him. It doesn’t make any sense, it's just an excuse for those that like to be able to run away form everyone when they get attacked, ala EQ2

For one, using the term "carebear" as an answer to folks who do not like a watered down approach to player vs player combat shows a questionable level of mentality on the poster itself. While I normally wouldn't respond to anyone who uses terms such as, l33t, pwned, carebear, QQ, etc., I have to realize that this language has been conditioned into a very young crowd of mmorpg players who see mmorpgs in a very different way from their old veteran mmorpg counterparts. Now I realize a 52 year old veteran player who uses this language could exist, but this is not about case studies. On the average I dare say there are certain pvp mentalities that can be summed up into at least a few categories. Secondly, I want to bump the post because I "ain't" giving up on the possibility that late at night, an SOE employee who works on the pvp development team might like something one of us posted and might realize many of us want more pvp depth and balance then say what we see on Venakor (EQ2 pvp server). I'm opinionated so bear with me; I was spoiled beyond imagination by some great guild experiences in Dark Age of Camelot(gods rest its soul).

To get back on track here, how about we just vote for normalizing combat down to team A vs team B without super powers turning it into a kiting game supported by pulsating invis that cancels targetting? This is supposed to be a heroic epical mmorpg - watching folks running around like mad with speed buffs and groups rarely if ever holding down and fighting is very boring to watch - reminds me of City of Villans - and just more "care bear" as you put it than anything because it caters to simple minded techniques to win - roll a druid and you will see what I mean - and I mean no disrespect but having to appease solo I WIN tactics is "care bear" because VG is trying to appeal to that solo guy who isn't worried about group mechanics and how he can support his team ina pvp event - instead he rolls what he sees as the best kiting nuking class and runs around spamming I pnwzered you.

I am personally tired of seeing the game so broken that an 18 druid can starfall a 25 druid and near 2 shot him with folow up nukes because he started kiting the other kiter first...just boring as heck. What ever happened to in your face pvp where range was based on casters and archers hunkered down for focus in the heat of combat. These super powered new classes can run as fast as a barn yard animal all the while expending massive damage - This is next gen mmorpg time - it's about time Vanguard catches up to that mentality. Start getting pvp back to where it should be on a battle field and you'll see classes like pallies, warriors, rogues, disciples, and monks, popping up all over the place.

Group 1

In my 2 cents opinion many mature adult gamers with mmorpg history behind them, who enjoyed the glory days of EQ, UO, and Dark |Age of Camelot, are looking for that next gen mmorpg that has in depth pve and a real sense of team accomplishment goals in the ever-developing genre of pvp. Gone should be the days of developers calling pvp a server where the coding is merely lifted for killing another player. There has to be more depth than that for one, secondly, as is being stated in this thread, those classes need to be balanced in regards to heals vs damage, mitigation vs damage, evasion, mana and energy regen issues, pet issues, and special powers issues (DOV, Starfall, etc.).
Gone should be the days where folks roll a tune and in zombie spam a button fashion blow the snot out of someone from kiting range in some open field or crafting zone. What a yawn fest.

Group 2

The younger folks who have crossed over from first person shooters, etc., are stuck in that vein and really want a fantasy game that appeals to that need. "I can roll an uberest of toons and pwn everyone..."

The mmorpg genre is attempting to appeal to both crowds in mmorpgs - so while I'm not knocking group 2 entirely, I'm stating that it appears to me that Vanguard was supposed to cater to group 1. An epical mmorpg with an amazingly in depth world with tons of huge expansion potential for the years to come is what I believe most of us were promised in this game. Whether you feel it's going to be here or not is not at issue here at least - what is at issue is trying to debate what we feel makes for fun team vs team or as on Tharridon, guild vs guild pvp...

/salute

[david99]

In addition to fixing all the current bugs and class specific issues;

I think they need to reduce PVP damage even further - for everyone.
Diminishing returns and reduced duration on ALL stuns/roots/snares.
Remove the soft cap.
Add some form of item looting or a form of meaningful death penalty that can't be avoided by simply using a mailbox. Temporary stats loss would also be welcome IMO. Death should NOT be a fairy tickle like WOW & what we have currently.
Make infamy mean something; for purchasing PVP specific abilities/buffs/benefits would be very nice.
Endgame PVP; eg Siegable guild cities, capturable towns etc...

I think that would be a good start.

They do NOT need to dumb things down though. There are PLENTY of counters to invisibility (though they still need to fix the lose target bug, and the current perma see invis bug 1st) and class specific speed abilities/buffs.

[keyoto]

I pretty much agree that pvp needs some help as the OP said other than that I disagree with every other thing he said. Don't have time to get more into it but that's my short answer.

[Founder Apache]

I pretty much agree that pvp needs some help as the OP said other than that I disagree with every other thing he said. Don't have time to get more into it but that's my short answer.

Before you disagree with canceling speed and pulsating invis in pvp - remember we are killing battle mechanics in this game with these parlor tricks. No longer can we organize a real charge (not without a bard), no more outflanking an enemy, dps assist trains are gone (without a bard)...and with the amount of resists there is no real lock down of near anyone it's just keystone cops running around in circles and through server lines.

[Seven_PRX]

There a gazillion things to be fixed, but Bard Invis is one of them; just like the other Invis in-game, this one also should not be usable in combat mode.

They got it right last patch to make Invis uncastable in Combat, it was a good change for PvP, they just forgot to add Bard invis to it.

Bard invis is actually the worst kind there is, even with see Invis items, you would still loose them as target & not see them for a few seconds.

-7

[Founder Apache]

There a gazillion things to be fixed, but Bard Invis is one of them; just like the other Invis in-game, this one also should not be usable in combat mode.

They got it right last patch to make Invis uncastable in Combat, it was a good change for PvP, they just forgot to add Bard invis to it.

Bard invis is actually the worst kind there is, even with see Invis items, you would still loose them as target & not see them for a few seconds.

-7
Agreed.

I suppose if I had to water down three immediate pvp fixes:

1. Speed cancels in combat
2. Invis cancels in combat
3. Revise damage of abilities/pets vs the healing potential and mitigation/defenses of classes (classes should not be running around getting 1-2 shot with nukes that by far out range a max heal by 2-3 times its heal value - just pointless)

[Seven_PRX]

Agreed.

I suppose if I had to water down three immediate pvp fixes:

1. Speed cancels in combat
2. Invis cancels in combat
3. Revise damage of abilities/pets vs the healing potential and mitigation/defenses of classes (classes should not be running around getting 1-2 shot with nukes that by far out range a max heal by 2-3 times its heal value - just pointless)

Sounds good.
Healing shouldn't go up - that way a pure melee class will never be able to kill any healer, but spell damage should go down lot, not doing more than 1.5-2k damage max per hit.

[Rulan]

I agree with pretty much everything you said, except the bard thing.

take away the invis in combat from a bard and you wont see any bards on a pvp server. you dont understand that we have the shittiest dmg in the game, and until that gets fixed i dont think that bards should suck any more then they already do.

Also the the statement about canceling speed while in combat, thats the dumbest idea i have ever seen on these forums. sorry to sound so abrubt, but theres far more severe issues with pvp then that.

*edit* I read some of your other posts about fixing pvp, and i think most of your ideas are awesome, u deff know wut your talking about, but those ideas that i mentioned i dont agree with. :)

psst did you know bards are a group utility class? you aren't supposed to be able to go toe to toe with a sorc

[iji]

In combat speed reductions are stupid. It makes no sense for my buffs to drop during combat, whether it's s speed buff or strength...

What needs to happen so that PVP battles aren't a matter of kiting is that you can not cast or shoot while running. If you have to stop to pull that bow string or cast those nukes, you’re vulnerable.

But, I don't see that happening, these devs thoroughly love a good kite and designed most classes to be able to do it well.

[Johrune]

Agreed.

1. Speed cancels in combat
2. Invis cancels in combat


1. I completely disagree. If you have ever played a bard, you know we are paper. Not only do we not take hits well, but we can't dish them out either. We do decent DPS but nothing compared to other DPS classes. Speed is our only form of survival that is relatively reliable. We have no instant cast mez or stuns. You take away our speed in combat and we are nothing but free Infamy and cash when we are alone.

2. I completely agree. Pulsating invis is completely overpowered and no form of invis should work in combat. For those who say they RELY on their invis for survivability... you still will pre-combat as a form of stealth.

My 2 cents. Feedback welcome of course.

-Johrune (42 Bard on Varking)

[Founder Apache]

1. I completely disagree. If you have ever played a bard, you know we are paper. Not only do we not take hits well, but we can't dish them out either. We do decent DPS but nothing compared to other DPS classes. Speed is our only form of survival that is relatively reliable. We have no instant cast mez or stuns. You take away our speed in combat and we are nothing but free Infamy and cash when we are alone.

2. I completely agree. Pulsating invis is completely overpowered and no form of invis should work in combat. For those who say they RELY on their invis for survivability... you still will pre-combat as a form of stealth.

My 2 cents. Feedback welcome of course.

-Johrune (42 Bard on Varking)

The balance of speed canceling in combat for a bard would be balanced out by more dps - the other bonus would be all the kite classes would have to pvp the old fashioned way like in every other mmorpg - afew of them more successful than VG ;)

[Desu]

1. I completely disagree. If you have ever played a bard, you know we are paper. Not only do we not take hits well, but we can't dish them out either. We do decent DPS but nothing compared to other DPS classes. Speed is our only form of survival that is relatively reliable. We have no instant cast mez or stuns. You take away our speed in combat and we are nothing but free Infamy and cash when we are alone.

Right now, Classes that dont have speed or roots/snares are free infamy/cash to those who do. Can just constantly kite. Think its fair to them that speed stays on during combat?

[Johrune]

Right now, Classes that dont have speed or roots/snares are free infamy/cash to those who do. Can just constantly kite. Think its fair to them that speed stays on during combat?

I once had a warrior use his LONG range stun shout, then crit me to death in 3 hits before it was done. But no, I do not think it's fair. This game has too many snares, mezzes etc. I believe speed should be kept, but diminishing returns put in on snare, mez, etc. Hell if I had my way, snare and mez would be for a few CHOICE classes. But also, those classes you mention can used range as well, no? Which works well against a ranged bard... we can't heal well at all.

The balance of speed canceling in combat for a abrd would be balanced out by more dps - the other bonus would be all the kite classes would have to pvp the old fashioned way like in every other mmorpg - afew of them more successful than VG ;)

Again, I go with diminising returns. To change our DPS might overpower us. The reason our DPS sucks solo is because we bring so much to a group. We are the BEST group PVPers. So if you just gave us more DPS solo, like you propose, I do not think it would be fair, but I do not know for sure. Maybe there is a middle ground... maybe if bard speed cancelled for his group, but not him in combat? One toss of a insta snare stops the one fast bard. I am talknig group PVP here though.

Comments?

-Johrune

PS- I come from Everquest of four years... I love bard speed and believe their is a better way of fixing PVP without taking away the DEFINING mark of a bard.

[Laiboch]

1. Reduce healing effects in pvp by 50% to match 50% reduced damage in pvp.

No. Instead of making another knee jerk reaction do something intelligent like balance out abilities so they are not so damn fast. IE instead of a 1.5 second heal make it 2.5 seconds. This would help a lot more than a 50% reduction to the effect in PVP.

Speed effects in PVP being cancelled? Umm no. Its part of the challenge. If everyone has to be on the same exact footing then they should only have one class. Let people have their SoW and SoR and all that. Its part of the challenge and fun of PVP. Different classes different challenges.

4. Guards defend their own - no faction grinding no bs cover up for pve server residual effects on our pvp servers. You will not be able to pk or even walk into our town without going to war with out guards. The more pk'ers show up the more guards come to defend plain and simple. Easy mode is over.

/Agree

5. /agree

6. /agree x10

8. make invis out of combat only. Simple and easy.

take away the invis in combat from a bard and you wont see any bards on a pvp server. you dont understand that we have the shittiest dmg in the game, and until that gets fixed i dont think that bards should suck any more then they already do.

Sorry I call bullshit on the bard DPS go play a Disciple and try and claim the worst DPS. Bards can effectively perma snare people and plink at them from range. They have a lot of abilities that are very useful. LTP.

They also need a global reduction in damage across the board coupled with a game rebalance. There is no real effective way to balance PVP when they are just small reductions of PVE damage. Combat needs to be slowed down just a bit and damage needs to be more spaced out. You cannot balance PVP in a game that has no balance in PVE and PVP was only an afterthought.

[Jebus]

Right now, people who aren't cleric's are free infamy/cash to those who are.

Fixed it for you.