Pulling: To what degree is it a redundant mechanic?

[Skarlath]

I don't like pulling. It's not that I think it necessarily detracts from the game, I just think that it is a non-sensical mechanic that was partially introduced due to restraints that are no longer present. Firstly: What is pulling?

Pulling is making use of artifical mechanics such as mob aggro and grouping to lure desired monsters (in a specific quantity) towards the location of a player or a player's group.

Pulling is possible because monsters in previous MMORPGs have relied on 'Aggro' mechanics to decide whether to attack the player. Two thinks can initiate a monster's attack: The player standing within the 'aggro radius' or the player attacking the monster/monsters the particular monster in question is 'grouped' with. These are extremely simplified stimuli that yield extremely restricted responses. Using clear cut, and generally extremely small, aggro radius mechanics gives birth to 'proximity pulling' (standing close enough to the enemy for them to be lured towards you, but far away enough from others to prevent them attacking too), but also allows other types of pulling to take place. It is games that use a small radius for aggro range that I want to pick bones with.

Often a monster will only attack you if you stand within 10ft of it. Thats crazy! Some of these are cold-blooded killers will do whatever it takes to see you dead, or guards desparate to protect something they conceal or die trying! Why would they only attack when 10ft away? Why would they not begin to square off with you as soon as they see you? It makes no sense at all that they would not even pay attention to you when you enter the room they are in. With all your armour, chainmail rattling and sword backing against your platemail legs, do they really not notice you?

I assume that these rules for small distance aggro was due to programming limits and possibly technical limits. You have to have your NPCs continuously check for bogeys on their radar, and so smaller radars might mean less drain on resources? Equally code that tries to track every monsters' vision, including what is obscured by objects (trees, walls, doors etc) then your code is gonna be fairl complex compared to a simple circle of aggro, and is bound to have a lot more bugs.

However, I don't think the task is all that daunting any more, and realistic aggro is something that this genre needs. Something that can be improved and would add a lot to the game that does it successfully.

So how would initiating a fight occur without a set circle of aggro? Well if I had it my way the aggro distance would be a lot further, and would take into account objects that obscure the vision, as I already explained. From there, it would act much like the existing small radius mechanism - the monster will decide what to do. [As a side point, when a monster decides what to do, it shouldn't just be 'fight'. They might want to run away, or perhaps take cover, call friends, there are a fair few possibilities that haven't yet been explored.] Preferably vision would be in a cone shape, so players could make use of hiding and creeping past patrols.

You might say "Well if the aggro is going to work pretty much the same and just be bigger, whats the difference? People can still 'pull' from the edge of the larger aggro area." Yes they can lure monsters too them, but the monster's vision is likely to be to the limit of the environment (e.g. the room they are standing in). This means that quite often there is no more hovering just outside the range. It means that when you enter a room, you must do it carefully and tactically. It means that downtime must be taken in a place obscured from view. It means scouts, with good avoidance skills, will have to be sent ahead to spot whats coming up in the next room.

I think that MMORPGs can take a great leap forwards if they embrace realistic aggro rules. However larger distances and a greater variety of responses means that pulling would be a tactic rarely used.

So is pulling a redundant mechanism? How do you all feel about the size of a monster's aggro radius? and how realistic do you want reactions to go?

[Razorwire]

persanally I would like to see a cone effect aggro radius, ie what you can see in front of you and then a much smaller area behind in the what you can hear. I think it would be cool if we could sneak around behind something and not just rogues.

[Skarlath]

I thought about including thoughts on sound, but I decided against it. My OP was already getting large. But I think Ill say something now that you have brought it up.

Firstly, there is no need to incorporate it into the vision mechanism. It is complex enough to be separate.

I think that items should have ratings that dictate how noisy they are. Your 'overall potential noise level' should take into account your clothes and armour, your weapons, the items in your pack and the terrain you are walking on and your method of movement.

Every now and again the game should check to see whether you are being. If you are moving fast wearing chainmail and carrying a sack full of horseshoes then it should decide "Right! He is being noisy! Now .. who can hear him?" It should then run a check on every NPC in a particular radius around him (taking into account barriers such as walls). It should infact run a number of these checks for different distances. For each distance it will do a 'roll' for whether the NPC hears the player. If NPC was standing in one of the bands for further away (is between 55-65 feet away for example) then they would have a significantly less chance of hearing the player.

The 'volume' of the player's loud noise would be slightly randomised, and factors such as how well a particular monster species can hear as well as another random component would come into play.

Now once a monster has heard a sound, they should not just attack the player! They should instead go into alert mode, and start turning on the spot trying to get a visual on the player. Perhaps they might start patrolling the general direction of the noise? Perhaps call their friends? Perhaps retreat to their friends? Just retreat? Take cover and then look around? The list goes on.

Sound has a big place in aggro. Or at least it should do. I doubt it will in Vanguard, but heres to hoping. ;)

[Havelock]

Pulling is an awfully artificial mechanic, and while it arose quite innocently from the way early MMOs were set up, it's generally not a good thing. It would be different if players pulled mobs to a bottleneck or something to gain tactical advantage, but when you just drag them from one open area to another it's kind of silly, especially when tons of other mobs are just outside of aggro range and can clearly see what's going on (or could if they could see, anyway :p ).

[GuyJantica]

Yep, aggro is right up there with standing toe-to-toe with a mob and duking it out blow for blow until one falls down. I'd love to see more realistic avenues of perception and pursuit for npc's as well as "combat motion". You know, pusing enemies back, dodging, leaping and rolling out of the way of massive foes (like dragons and giants), getting knocked back through bookcases and doors and other debris, over ledges into water... CRAZY stuff!

Sorry, come back choo-choo. "Aggro" could certainly use some artful revamping. It'll be interesting to see what Vanguard does with it.

-GJ

[Skarlath]

Just thought I'd throw in a little titbit:

In Fable, the singleplayer RPG from Lionhead Studios, they had a nice little 'vision' system. There was a little symbol of any eye that indicated if you were within someone's sight. Whilst in a town, for example, the eye might be closed if you were standing behind something. However if you stepped out into the open the eye symbol would open wide and a number would be displayed over it as to the number of people who would be able to see you if you did something wrong.

The system was used in towns for theft. You could steal things from people's houses, provided no one was looking.

[Valerius]

I totally agree Skar. I've always thought that 'pulling' was sort of 'cheating', if not in actuality, then in spirit.

It made no sense to me, no matter how I tried to justify it to myself, why monsters would ignore one or more of their comrades getting beat down just a few feet or yards away from them... especially when it was within line-of-sight.

Same with sound. If you've got a nice little hideout (dungeon, crypt, what-have-you) and you hear a hell of a commotion happening down the hall, such as a bunch of armored adventurers putting the smack down on some of your buddies, wouldn't you be apt to investigate?? Well I think monsters in games should too.

Implementing agro this way, some would argue, would make the game too hard... dungeons impossible to crack... Well, to them I would say, maybe it would give the enchanter something to do... provide a real purpose for that "Sphere of Silence" spell that used to be nothing more than filler.. maybe it would force players to be more creative with their problem solving efforts.

And like you said, monsters wouldn't just "attack" once they were confronted by an obviously superior force of adventurers... maybe they would run and alert their cohorts... unless their way was blocked by some player with enough foresight to block the way.. either by spell (Web comes to mind) or by stealthy force (some rogue who snuck in prior to the main thrust and was just waiting to pounce on any fleeing mobs). Or maybe having brought that Ranger along really pays off by having him take down the fleeing mobs with some well placed arrows... I guess what I'm getting at here, is that while it might make some tasks seem impossible at first, like everything else, it would take just a little adjustment and people would figure something out like we always do.

Anyway, I think it's an excellent suggestion that if implemented properly (<--- key) would make Vanguard a truly 3rd generation MMORPG. Here's hoping they've thought of this too - at least to some degree.... :)

[Dreamer]

I generally agree that the implementation of pulling in current games is somewhat lackluster. But, I disagree that the mechanic itself is in any way artificial or redundant.

In fact, I think pulling is an almost universally applicable strategy that has existed not only since we’ve had computer games, but in any engagement where we have any real-time resolution of “combat”. Look at many FPSs, look at football and other field sports, look at tactics in real battles, et. al. They all involve pulling in some shape or form.

It simply makes too much sense to:

a) Fight in a “safe” area that’s either inherently defensible, or previously suppressed by the good guys.
b) Fight mobs in numbers that the good guys believe they can overcome.

Remember also that MMO’s are RPGs. Mob behavior is simulated to a maximal extent feasible by current technology and game scope. Beyond that, we fill in the wherefores with a good dose of back-story and role-play. Why didn’t that mob see me until just now? That’s because I’m a veteran of a thousand encounters and I know how not to unduly alarm an otherwise alert sentry.

That being said, many of the improvements you suggested for mob aggro make sense. I share your desire to see mob AI (I mean AI in the “overall apparent mob behavior, irrespective of particular decision-making algorithms” sense) improve. Many of the thoughts on improvement I’ve had myself and fully support. The purpose of those improvements, however, is not to eliminate pulling, but to improve it.

What if a good pull is the difference between getting the few mobs standing in the room (4 mobs) and the entire section of the dungeon you are visiting (100 mobs)? To do this the puller would have to have the ability to maybe blind or disable sentries, and/or prevent mobs from running deeper into the dungeon for proactive help, silence mobs to prevent cries for help, etc.

I want pulling. I hope V:SoH will have its own, new, more challenging, and more rewarding version of pulling.

[GuyJantica]

Well said, Dreamer. I think this is probably what many of us are really trying to say. I agree that there are certain technological/scope issues that need to be addressed for gaming purposes and also that improvements in AI will only bolster the art of pulling.

Cheers,

-GJ

[Skarlath]

:)

I like the idea of 'luring'. It's a great game feature and is something we see in the real life situations you named, Dreamer. There is a big distinction between luring and pulling.

Specifically, 'pulling' exploits poor aggro systems.

Luring an enemy to ground that gives you an advantage is definitely something I want to see! But what is the advantage gained from pulling in current MMOs? The reason why pulling is beneficial is created by the rubbish aggro system. If the monsters had half a brain between them, they would assist their friends if they were in view. Pulling has got to go!

Luring though. Luring is exciting.

I'd like to see movement within combat to be more important, and this would tie into luring. Dragging a monster during combat may be to gain the same advantages as the luring. But what advantages could exist in MMORPGs?

Well in real life, there are a few situations that are beneficial for the smaller force.


The Bottle Neck - Only a small number of enemies can get up close to you at a time, and so you make the odds a little fairer.
The Slope - Fighting downhill is easier, and many a great battle has been won because of it. For starters, they cannot hit the upper (and more important) parts of your body, and if they try it is easier to block or parry. You also have an easier job of hitting their 'important' upper regions. It is also more tiring trying to push uphill, or to be holding a shield high up in the air. For the defender, it is much easier to throw your weight, or push forwards if you are moving downhill. You can knock the enemy off of their footing far easier if they are stumbling backwards down a hill.
The Closed Sides - Similar to the bottle neck, if you fight with your back to the corner of a room, you cannot be surrounded. I would love it if positional damage was hugely important - i.e. hitting from behind did massive damage. It should. By standing near a wall you reduce the number of attackers you have to face at one time, and prevent being attacked from behind.
Using the environment - This is fantasy theme! Dungeons and drakes. Where are the traps? The tripwires and the spikey obstacles. Moving an enemy around through luring and dragging/pusshing should allow you to put them into a location, if you are good, whereby the environment poses a danger to them. Pushing them so they are fighting with their back to the edge of a cliff is bound to make them easier to fight.


MMORPGs need to make positioning and movement much more important. When this happens luring will be vital. However it should always be sensible. Logical.

You can throw in a little roleplay to cover up the shortcomings of some mechanics, but we have all been in the situation where we have exploited the fact that attacking one creature won't bring all his friends (who are only a few metres away) running, but approaching them to attack the first one would.

So I'll conclude with my distinction:

Pulling is artificial and redundant - luring is not.

[nubbins]

Pulling is an awfully artificial mechanic, and while it arose quite innocently from the way early MMOs were set up, it's generally not a good thing. It would be different if players pulled mobs to a bottleneck or something to gain tactical advantage, but when you just drag them from one open area to another it's kind of silly, especially when tons of other mobs are just outside of aggro range and can clearly see what's going on (or could if they could see, anyway :p ).

agreed, hopefully VG along with other 4th gen mmorpgs will eliminate some of the out right silly concepts left over from mmorpgs past

[Dreamer]

I like the idea of 'luring'. It's a great game feature and is something we see in the real life situations you named, Dreamer. There is a big distinction between luring and pulling.

It sounds like we are after the same thing.

I like the distinction you made between pulling and luring. (Though, I'll probably just call it all pulling anyway. ;) ) It illustrates a basic truth about games. And it also possibly suggests a key to longevity in a persistant world.

We learned the mechanics of pulling in previous MMO's. We will eventually learn the mechanics of pulling/luring in Vanguard. While these mechanics are still partial mysteries or recently uncovered, but still unperfected truths we are happily playing the game, enjoying these mechanics.

As soon as you hit the wall of fully understanding the mechanic, you can begin a conversion from enjoyment to annoyance. It becomes less "let's see if I can figure this one out" and more "darnit, it's just hitting more buttons to make what I want to happen, happen".

So, therefore, it seems important that mob behavior must change over the course of the game. Mobs need to have different tactics from each other (seperated by race, location, etc.). Additionally, the higher level the mob, the more sophisticated the tactics and the more choices the mobs should have.

And finally, that "upgrade the AI" trend should continue through expansions. So it seems that the AI should be built with future expansion in mind.

[Dahmedic]

FFXI incorporated several triggers into their aggro system. Some creatures would aggro due to sound, scent, sight, use of magic, low hit points. It will be interesting to see how Vanguard aggro pans out.