Server population after merge?

[danbala]

Well, the waiting is over. How are the server populations after the merger? Can you now get groups?

[Vordox]

Well still servers aren't up yet so no idea lol.

[Chae668]

Well, the waiting is over. How are the server populations after the merger? Can you now get groups?
why not log in and see?

nah, you wouldnt do that. an hour or 2 after the merge, and you want to know if you can get groups. what a drama queen.

[sjb1]

minor interesting bit of info (to me at least)

The number of people on the Official forums is a *lot* higher than I remember seeing for a long time

There are 1,375 online users: 373 registered, 1,002 guest(s)

Comapared to EQ2 (973 online users: 255 registered, 718 guest(s) )

Seems to be a lot of people watching?

[Dikamin]

Dosent really help that as far as i know the servers are not up yet. well except the non merged servers. So will be kinda hard to judge your population when noone on the merged servers can play at moment. though i could be wroung they may be up by now.

[Jordan Jax]

Logged in briefly last night. Only spent some time in Khal and NT and...was shocked that i actually saw a lot of people running around. Walked into the bank in Khal and saw a lot of people in there...didn't count but more than 10 (never saw more than 2 or 3 before). Lot of people standing outside too and running past me to the portal.

The merge will definitely be a good thing. Now just need to improve stability more, get in more high-end content, get in permanent flying mounts, ship combat, improve performance, blah blah blah....

they are getting things done though and the game is improving. Just hope they don't keep going the over-simplification over-easy route.

[Chae668]

Just hope they don't keep going the over-simplification over-easy route.
definatly agree.

[MagicNumbers]

The second set of 4 servers (Shidreth and such) are down now as well. The first set are still not back up but I'm sure it's a lot harder to merge these things than anticipated.

[Mardy]

Well, the waiting is over. How are the server populations after the merger? Can you now get groups?


Xeth hit 2,000 players within 40 minutes of the server coming live last night, I think it did pretty well.

[MagicNumbers]

Just logged into the saradon or whatever server (was on Shidreth), and it was a n essentially flawless merge. I had all my stuff and there were a lot of people in chat trying to grab their ideal housing location.

[Kurron Nye]

Xeth hit 2,000 players within 40 minutes of the server coming live last night, I think it did pretty well.


and that was late at night..i wonder what it is like now that prime time has come?

[kcxiv]

Alot of people are logging back in. I just hope with GU3 and more polish raid content, it continues to grow some. I know its not ever going to be a major player, but i hope it can be fairly healthy. Maybe even eventually even had another server or 2.

Some bastard stole my plot!grr lol

[danbala]

Xeth hit 2,000 players within 40 minutes of the server coming live last night, I think it did pretty well.

Good to hear. Projecting that out a bit, that's at least 8k players left on all servers. Not too bad considering where we thought it was.

[Chae668]

Good to hear. Projecting that out a bit, that's at least 8k players left on all servers. Not too bad considering where we thought it was.
very nice pop today. just logged off myself. every channel is scrolling too fast to see.

khal, you actually have to look down at the ground to get 2 fps. not like that since beta.

very good outlook so far. least, on seradon.

[Grizzlebeard]

very nice pop today. just logged off myself. every channel is scrolling too fast to see.

khal, you actually have to look down at the ground to get 2 fps. not like that since beta.

very good outlook so far. least, on seradon.

So, in built up areas your fps still goes to shit only now there are 8-10k people maximum playing the game as opposed to a few hundred thousand.

[Chae668]

So, in built up areas your fps still goes to shit only now there are 8-10k people maximum playing the game as opposed to a few hundred thousand.
aye. but was still fun, as others with much better rigs had the same issues. hasnt been like that since the stress test. rofl, shoulda seen peeps runnin in to others tryin to get out of khal, was absolutely hilarious.

doesnt matter if there are 10k or 100k. its still lag city.

[kohl]

very nice pop today. just logged off myself. every channel is scrolling too fast to see.

khal, you actually have to look down at the ground to get 2 fps. not like that since beta.

very good outlook so far. least, on seradon.

So you are saying there is a good outlook because the game's FPS plummets to near-nothing when other players are around? Looking back at other games with far less "tech" behind them (UO, EQ) - you could easily be around 20 other players without issue.

[Swayde]

aye. but was still fun, as others with much better rigs had the same issues. hasnt been like that since the stress test. rofl, shoulda seen peeps runnin in to others tryin to get out of khal, was absolutely hilarious.

doesnt matter if there are 10k or 100k. its still lag city.

I don't believe I've ever seen fun and lag issues used at the same time before lol. You must be one heckuva masochist =)

[Jordan Jax]

I don't believe I've ever seen fun and lag issues used at the same time before lol. You must be one heckuva masochist =)

I was in Khal and my lag wasn't nearly that bad...not that different from before the merge actually. I do have a newer machine with an 8800 GTS etc so it does depend on your comp...but everyone already knows this. The 2 fps i'm assuming is coming on an older computer.

(not saying that is a good thing, just that it isn't that bad if you have a newer computer. the performance issue is improving but still i think will be holding back subs for those that don't have newer rigs unfortunately)

[BoydofZINJ]

So you are saying there is a good outlook because the game's FPS plummets to near-nothing when other players are around? Looking back at other games with far less "tech" behind them (UO, EQ) - you could easily be around 20 other players without issue.

I believe what he is saying is this:

If you hate Vanguard so much why are you here? infact, I will counter, if you left VG already - what made the game so good your still posting here?

[rhagz]

If you hate Vanguard so much why are you here?

Entertainment.

if you left VG already - what made the game so good your still posting here?

The only thing good about Vanguard is the comedy gold it provides.

[BoydofZINJ]

Entertainment.



The only thing good about Vanguard is the comedy gold it provides.


I believe that Vanguard is so amazing it has you hooked and you dont even know it. I betcha your life revoles around VG. you should just give in and play again - you pretty much support it - as it is.

[Jordan Jax]

Entertainment.



The only thing good about Vanguard is the comedy gold it provides.

If your entertainment comes from spending as much time as you apparently do on a message board for a game you don't even play and harbor some weird nerd rage for...i feel sorry for you.

Anyway, I like VG, so i guess it doesn't suck for everyone.

[AsheMan]

I believe that Vanguard is so amazingly tragic that it has you hooked and you dont even know it.

Fixed it for you.

[rhagz]

Anyway, I like VG, so i guess it doesn't suck for everyone.

Never claimed it did. It just sucks for almost everyone.

And no, I don't spend much time here. See that neat little live posts thing at the top of the screen? The forums I do browse often also have it, so thread hilarity is just a mouse click away.

Though I do use the hardware forum here quite a bit.

[milodacat]

Last night I was in Khal, I tried to see how many people were in the zone, but gave up when I was hitting the 200 people limit, even when I was breaking them down into 5 and 10 level ranges. The lag was worse than usual in that zone. However, once I got away from the city and went to a neighboring chunk, there were about 50 people in the zone, and lag was not a problem for me.

All in all, it was nice to see so many more people. I saw lots of people running around when I havent before. Dips and crafters running around the city, tons of people standing around the brokers and mailboxes, lots of people hawking their wares and organizing groups. I'm going to have to do some organizing of my chat filters since all the chat channels were scrolling so fast. Hadnt seen all that in quite awhile.

The performance of the game is tons better than launch, but they havent said it's all fixed. I have hopes they can improve it even more. I'm interested in seeing how this art asset optimization turns out that they'll be putting in with the Trial Island. Apparently it is an amazing boost.

All in all, was pretty nice and a welcome change. I'm enjoying VG.

[Delux]

Logged in last night with my 29 cleric at Rotk and usually it took 30+ minutes to find a grp if ever. I wasnt in the server 5 min and already had a grp going. Once inside Rotk there must have been 6 grps pounding away at stuff. Was a great sight to see so many people playing. Lag was alittle worse until all the textures loaded in that area, after that no problems here. I see this long weekend being packed.

[Ominous]

If your entertainment comes from spending as much time as you apparently do on a message board for a game you don't even play and harbor some weird nerd rage for...i feel sorry for you.

Anyway, I like VG, so i guess it doesn't suck for everyone.

Well there's the Warhammer forums now and the Off-Topic, Industry News, and Hardware forums as well. I only post in the Vanguard related forums once or twice a week. Some of us simply were a part of the pre-release community, and, while the game was dismal, we enjoy being a part of remainders of that old community.

[VoiceOfReason]

Entertainment.



The only thing good about Vanguard is the comedy gold it provides.

Who would want to listen to person having the kind of character that enjoys the misfortunes of others? Not only that, would like to keep that misfortune rolling if they could...

[rhagz]

Who would want to listen to person having the kind of character that enjoys the misfortunes of others? Not only that, would like to keep that misfortune rolling if they could...

So are you saying that you are suffering misfortune?

I don't delight in the suffering of others, but I do delight in how some people around here act. Especially those who make such bold claims like 'VG will have 800k subs next year'.

[Ominous]

I don't delight in the suffering of others, but I do delight in how some people around here act. Especially those who make such bold claims like 'VG will have 800k subs next year'.

I don't read the VG part of these forums much anymore. Do they really post that? Please show me where; I'm always looking for a good laugh.

[VoiceOfReason]

I don't read the VG part of these forums much anymore. Do they really post that? Please show me where; I'm always looking for a good laugh.

I did post that by the end of next year, given that WoW has over 8 million customers, I didn't see why VG couldn't have 800K or so if things go well for them. I still think this possible, though given the blind mad dog hatred that people like you evince, there are obviously some hills to climb.

I am not saying what WILL happen, I was just trying to throw out a ballpark number of what could happen, if SOE staff does things mostly correctly from here on out.

[VoiceOfReason]

So are you saying that you are suffering misfortune?

I don't delight in the suffering of others, but I do delight in how some people around here act. Especially those who make such bold claims like 'VG will have 800k subs next year'.

Do I really have to explain it or are you being deliberately obtuse? The people who are making the GAME, have been suffering and people like you are making fun of their efforts. Nice. Additionally, people who bought the game have been suffering granted - some more than others. But for these people, it's what? 40 bucks outlay plus 2 months or so to find out they don't like the game (if they stay past 2 months I'd argue they are getting value out of it). So OK, around 70 bucks invested. Big flippin deal. The people working on VG have their professional lives and to some extent their personal lives enmeshed in this.

As for my remark about 800K, it may be over optimistic, but no more off the mark than people who are declaring the game a corpse. In any event, once again you are saying you enjoy making fun of someone, in this case me. Personally, big deal. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. It is hard to predict the future. But time will tell. I don't think this point is worth belaboring. Wassamatter? You feel like you are loosing the argument on other fronts?

[rhagz]

The people who are making the GAME, have been suffering and people like you are making fun of their efforts. Nice.


Suffering implies torture and being held against your will. If any employee of Sigil/SOE feels they are suffering they have the option of packing up and walking away.

No, I don't think they are suffering. They go to work, mess with video games, collect a paycheck and go home. I call that working, not suffering.


As for my remark about 800K, it may be over optimistic, but no more off the mark than people who are declaring the game a corpse

The game *is* a corpse. Or maybe you didn't notice the login screen is down to 4 servers? Welcome to MxO status!

[Cobalty2004]

Server Merges?

Easier to find groups?

Did SoE fix the easiness of mobs yet? Did they fix it so certain classes cannot kill 6dots?

Are clerics still toe-to-toe with 5dot named and not breaking a sweat?

Can mobs still be kited around like a child chasing a kitten?

/yawn

Maybe if group content was.. ya know... required a group?

[Cobalty2004]

The game *is* a corpse. Or maybe you didn't notice the login screen is down to 4 servers? Welcome to MxO status!

4 Servers?

Didn't beta have more servers?

[VoiceOfReason]

Suffering implies torture and being held against your will. If any employee of Sigil/SOE feels they are suffering they have the option of packing up and walking away.

No, I don't think they are suffering. They go to work, mess with video games, collect a paycheck and go home. I call that working, not suffering.




The game *is* a corpse. Or maybe you didn't notice the login screen is down to 4 servers? Welcome to MxO status!


If you are going to redefine words to mean what you want them to mean (i.e. suffering = bondaged torture and corpse = something diminished in size, not something dead) then it will be impossible to reason with you. Of course, that may actually be self-evident anyway.

[Ominous]

4 Servers?

Didn't beta have more servers?

Only one server in betas 1-3 or 4. Beta 5 had 3 servers.

[sjb1]

I did post that by the end of next year, given that WoW has over 8 million customers, I didn't see why VG couldn't have 800K or so if things go well for them.

hang on, is that 800k based on anything? Reason I ask is EQ2 doesnt have over 500K does it? and it is considered a good and successful MMO now. Don't know LOTRO's figures, but I would be surprised if even it is that high.

Not saying VG wont get better and pick up more subs, but I can't fathom how they could possibly get to 800k, even in 18 months time. For that to happen there would have to be a massive increase in performance, as well as a lot of changes to target the "hop on and play for a time" people. they would probably also need to have any new MMO's flop as well.

I just can't see how they could get to 800k. 200-250k maybe, with a lot of effort and good luck.

[danbala]

Do I really have to explain it or are you being deliberately obtuse? The people who are making the GAME, have been suffering and people like you are making fun of their efforts.

Suffering? They have been doing pretty well -- especially considering their work product.

[Cobalty2004]

You people realize that SoE is probably making damn well sure the money that goes into the game is less than the money earned via subs/retails.

I mean, how long does it take to create one ****ing zone and populate it?

Well when the nightly janitor gets done with his MMO training... in between mopping/sweeping, 30min a day on APW?

Who is doing class balance? A dev from EQ2? Maybe some whore on the San Diego streets? $50 for a bj, $100 if you design my game and the BJ?

/yawn

[Hagen_EU]

*crap deleted*

/yawn

/yawns back

You know, your consistent flaming gets as monotonous as that little film in your sig. Pls go an troll elsewhere ...

[Tafkars]

/yawns back

You know, your consistent flaming gets as monotonous as that little film in your sig. Pls go an troll elsewhere ...

Yawns as well,... you are so right Hagen.......

[Cobalty2004]

/yawns back

You know, your consistent flaming gets as monotonous as that little film in your sig. Pls go an troll elsewhere ...

While most of my post is a flame, my first sentence holds true, and you cannot deny that.

A game's success is mostly proportional to its subs.

And about the film in my sig, it is symbolic.

The kid doing the karate moves symbolizes frustration everytime they said raid content coming soon! soon! SOON! ****ING WHEN DAMMIT!

And the chicken charging is SoE/SGO finally chasing away 80% of their players via all their bullshit and lies.

[iji]

/yawns back

You know, your consistent flaming gets as monotonous as that little film in your sig. Pls go an troll elsewhere ...


You must be new. The Anti-VG trolls are actually Silky's best customers. Didn't you know it's the new hotness: create a 'fansite' and then cater to haters.

I don't even play the game any longer; I just have this total disdain for the ubiquitous haters that fester on fan sites.

They fester, and we have to put up with the stench.

[Cobalty2004]

You must be new. The Anti-VG trolls are actually Silky's best customers. Didn't you know it's the new hotness: create a 'fansite' and then cater to haters.

I don't even play the game any longer; I just have this total disdain for the ubiquitous haters that fester on fan sites.

They fester, and we have to put up with the stench.

I defended this game in the past more than you think. You believe all my 1.5k posts or so is all trolling?

Just ask the warrior class lead who his best source of feedback was...

[VoiceOfReason]

You people realize that SoE is probably making damn well sure the money that goes into the game is less than the money earned via subs/retails.

I mean, how long does it take to create one ****ing zone and populate it?

Well when the nightly janitor gets done with his MMO training... in between mopping/sweeping, 30min a day on APW?

Who is doing class balance? A dev from EQ2? Maybe some whore on the San Diego streets? $50 for a bj, $100 if you design my game and the BJ?

/yawn

>> You people realize that SoE is probably making damn well sure the money that goes into the game is less than the money earned via subs/retails.

Well, if so, this is what businesses do. It is called making a profit. It allows them to stay in business and provide me with products that at this point, I have elected to purchase and enjoy.

The rest of your post is dross, as perhaps could be expected.

[Garmr]

I defended this game in the past more than you think. You believe all my 1.5k posts or so is all trolling?

Just ask the warrior class lead who his best source of feedback was...


Doesn't change the fact that your nothing more than a troll here now, along with 90% of the ****ing SV posters anymore.

**** these forums, right in the ass. I'm out.

[Cobalty2004]

Doesn't change the fact that your nothing more than a troll here now, along with 90% of the ****ing SV posters anymore.

**** these forums, right in the ass. I'm out.

Peace!

Don't let the CTDs hit you on the way out!

[ikaoma420]

Doesn't change the fact that your nothing more than a troll here now, along with 90% of the ****ing SV posters anymore.

**** these forums, right in the ass. I'm out.

Actually if you look around the net at various game forums this place is pretty nice to VG.

About the only place you're going to find any love for VG anymore is on the official boards that's just the fact.

[VoiceOfReason]

While most of my post is a flame, my first sentence holds true, and you cannot deny that.

A game's success is mostly proportional to its subs.

And about the film in my sig, it is symbolic.

The kid doing the karate moves symbolizes frustration everytime they said raid content coming soon! soon! SOON! ****ING WHEN DAMMIT!

And the chicken charging is SoE/SGO finally chasing away 80% of their players via all their bullshit and lies.

That little film is the best part of Cobalty's posts. I have to admit it cracks me up. Although granted, it does take up a bit of page.

[hmsilven]

hmm, and I thought the kid in the film clip was he himself....

well, judging from his posts im surprised he has the mental capability of understanding symbolics, so lets try this: I see it more representing his fight against VG (him being the kid and the chicken, you know, the one who pwns him at the end, VG) :D

[Cobalty2004]

Lol, I love how this thread is about me now...

No, the kid in the film is not me. No, I am not the one with the camera, although I would have loved to see the kids reaction after being chased by that chicken.

And about the comment on my mental capacity, I have an edumacation !!1!

[Atoyota]

Lol, I love how this thread is about me now...

No, the kid in the film is not me. No, I am not the one with the camera, although I would have loved to see the kids reaction after being chased by that chicken.

And about the comment on my mental capacity, I have an edumacation !!1!

I keep checking this thread to see what current populations are, is anyone collecting data? Meaning I expect a lot to go back and take a look out of curiosity, but how many will stay, and how will pops do after this merge?

Will the curious remain, or will the servers end up with just those who were there (now merged) to begin with?

[VoiceOfReason]

I keep checking this thread to see what current populations are, is anyone collecting data? Meaning I expect a lot to go back and take a look out of curiosity, but how many will stay, and how will pops do after this merge?

Will the curious remain, or will the servers end up with just those who were there (now merged) to begin with?

No statistics for you. However, I can say from first hand experience that there are a significant number of actual new people as well as returning players, on Xeth. I think this bodes well for VG. On the other hand, this most recent patch upped CTDs for some players (mainly NVidia 8800 on Vista I think) so that is not a great thing to show to a returning player.

[skjaybe]

I wish that every time I used the word "symptomatic" someone had actually listened and not called me a troll.

So how is ole VG doing now that there's been a server merge (which they TOTALLY don't need, if you listen to nontrolls. You tell 'em, guys!)?

I think gathering data right after the merge might not be the best idea due to a land rush...I'll check back in a week or so if anyone has data.

-skjaybe

[Atoyota]

No statistics for you. However, I can say from first hand experience that there are a significant number of actual new people as well as returning players, on Xeth. I think this bodes well for VG. On the other hand, this most recent patch upped CTDs for some players (mainly NVidia 8800 on Vista I think) so that is not a great thing to show to a returning player.

Be interesting to see if SOE can turn this around, the game sufered more than a "flesh wound".

It would be nice for those that enjoy Vanguard, that the game (with reduced servers) can move ahead. At least enough that it can improve and expand.

Its not for me, but that does'nt mean I don't want others to enjoy it.

[VoiceOfReason]

Be interesting to see if SOE can turn this around, the game sufered more than a "flesh wound".

It would be nice for those that enjoy Vanguard, that the game (with reduced servers) can move ahead. At least enough that it can improve and expand.

Its not for me, but that does'nt mean I don't want others to enjoy it.

What a pleasure to read a response from someone with the maturity to act like an actual human being about it, even though they do not favor the game.

[Atoyota]

What a pleasure to read a response from someone with the maturity to act like an actual human being about it, even though they do not favor the game.

I was never out to spoil the fun of others, more often to give open honest criticism on where I felt the game went wrong (or south). I recognise what I like is not for everyone as well as the opposite.

More often than not it was interpreted as negativity and labeled me and those like me as a troll. (hardly the case)

There were Trolls, there were Vanbois, and then there was me and a middle ground group. I followed the game, spent hour upon hour posting idea after idea, beta tested, and left when I saw how far off expectations were from the actual product. How much the game had changed from what was "advertised", how generic and far from appealing it had become as a result.

But this you've heard over and over.

Hopefully it will recover from it's bad start, and hold its own. That, only for those who invested in it and who enjoy it, and any that follow.

[shadowrelm]

i will come back if they find a way to get their new compressed population to start grouping again. lack of grouping is the only reason i left.

will check back in a few weeks to see if there is an improvemnet there.

[VoiceOfReason]

I was never out to spoil the fun of others, more often to give open honest criticism on where I felt the game went wrong (or south). I recognise what I like is not for everyone as well as the opposite.

More often than not it was interpreted as negativity and labeled me and those like me as a troll. (hardly the case)

There were Trolls, there were Vanbois, and then there was me and a middle ground group. I followed the game, spent hour upon hour posting idea after idea, beta tested, and left when I saw how far off expectations were from the actual product. How much the game had changed from what was "advertised", how generic and far from appealing it had become as a result.

But this you've heard over and over.

Hopefully it will recover from it's bad start, and hold its own. That, only for those who invested in it and who enjoy it, and any that follow.

>> I followed the game, spent hour upon hour posting idea after idea, beta tested, and left when I saw how far off expectations were from the actual product. How much the game had changed from what was "advertised", how generic and far from appealing it had become as a result.

This explanation helps me understand some of the excessive bitterness I've seen here on this board. I can identify with this and have absolutely no problems with folks like you who can look at both sides of the picture.

[Diaxis]

Vanguard's problem is its downward momentum. The perception is that this game is a struggling write-off, and every mediocre improvement SOE makes fails to inspire adequate enthusiasm to break orbit. They'd honestly have an easier go hyping a new game that no one has ever seen than trying to rehabilitate VG. Vanguard is a "known quantity" to the MMO market and all those customers who struggled and finally gave up in disgust have closed their minds to new information. Think of VG like a horrible ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. Its better for everyone involved NOT to risk getting sucked back into an abusive relationship that didn't work the first time. The fact that we're only getting one server change per ACCOUNT, even though we have multiple characters involuntarily relegated to new servers, just reminded me again, "oh yeah" what kind of underwhelming value these guys continue to serve up.

[Cobalty2004]

i will come back if they find a way to get their new compressed population to start grouping again. lack of grouping is the only reason i left.

will check back in a few weeks to see if there is an improvemnet there.

I think population doesn't affect grouping as much as people think.

If certain classes actually NEEDED a group to kill group content, than grouping would be frequent.

(Seeing how there has been what, 2 patches? since I left in June, my observations then hold true now)

I remember watching my bear shaman friend solo'ing all sorts of named and 4dot,5dot mobs.

Hell, we even duo'd a 6dot tree. 50 WAR and 50 shaman

Sorry, but certain classes are total BS and certain mobs need a shot of crack. As it stands Vanguard to a few classes is 95% soloable.

Population will only affect grouping if its mostly an increase of warriors, rogues, DSCs, etc....


I mean doesn't it ****ing piss you off when you see someone solo'ing this group mob for a quest. Yet your gear, your skill as a player, and your experience may all be greater than his? But you cannot kill said mob, but he can kill it w/o breaking a sweat.

Gratz Talisker and Avair, go back to dev school plz.

[Cas]

I think population doesn't affect grouping as much as people think.

If certain classes actually NEEDED a group to kill group content, than grouping would be frequent.

(Seeing how there has been what, 2 patches? since I left in June, my observations then hold true now)

I remember watching my bear shaman friend solo'ing all sorts of named and 4dot,5dot mobs.

Hell, we even duo'd a 6dot tree. 50 WAR and 50 shaman

Sorry, but certain classes are total BS and certain mobs need a shot of crack. As it stands Vanguard to a few classes is 95% soloable.

Population will only affect grouping if its mostly an increase of warriors, rogues, DSCs, etc....


I mean doesn't it ****ing piss you off when you see someone solo'ing this group mob for a quest. Yet your gear, your skill as a player, and your experience may all be greater than his? But you cannot kill said mob, but he can kill it w/o breaking a sweat.

Gratz Talisker and Avair, go back to dev school plz.

Can you name 1 class that requires a full group to kill anything and another that can solo said content?

[VoiceOfReason]

Vanguard's problem is its downward momentum. The perception is that this game is a struggling write-off, and every mediocre improvement SOE makes fails to inspire adequate enthusiasm to break orbit. They'd honestly have an easier go hyping a new game that no one has ever seen than trying to rehabilitate VG. Vanguard is a "known quantity" to the MMO market and all those customers who struggled and finally gave up in disgust have closed their minds to new information. Think of VG like a horrible ex-wife or ex-girlfriend. Its better for everyone involved NOT to risk getting sucked back into an abusive relationship that didn't work the first time. The fact that we're only getting one server change per ACCOUNT, even though we have multiple characters involuntarily relegated to new servers, just reminded me again, "oh yeah" what kind of underwhelming value these guys continue to serve up.

I'd say that VG's real problem is the difficulty that the devs are having banishing CTDs. Until this happens, VG will always be "hanging on". Just as soon as this happens (assuming it does not protract out too far) VG will begin to slowly take off. It's rough for them, because some of the CTDS are NVidia, some of them are Microsoft and some are their own. Glad that is not my problem... though it IS my problem in a way because I like the game and would like to see it continue.

[Mreynolds]

I'd say that VG's real problem is the difficulty that the devs are having banishing CTDs. Until this happens, VG will always be "hanging on". Just as soon as this happens (assuming it does not protract out too far) VG will begin to slowly take off. It's rough for them, because some of the CTDS are NVidia, some of them are Microsoft and some are their own. Glad that is not my problem... though it IS my problem in a way because I like the game and would like to see it continue.

Would love to agree but you cant keep saying "just a lil longer" and it fly. VG even though launching early it still launched almost 8 months ago now and where is it? It has improved by leaps and bounds but has that brought back anyone? From what I can tell its been very minimal. With the AAA titles on the horizon you just cant hang on for some big boom. Can it pull a EQ2.....maybe if timing and luck are just right and the stars are aligned perfect. In reality VG prolly has a pop future of somewhere around 100k. Which would keep it afloat and xpacs coming once a year. I keep coming back hoping its better but gameplay still isnt all that inspired and the pop after mergers may have improved but its still the same people playing with very lil influx of new folk. And the trial island will not be a saving grace but should help bring in new folk. SOE better pray though that the game itself plays as well as the trial island is supposed to.

[Cobalty2004]

Can you name 1 class that requires a full group to kill anything and another that can solo said content?

What does a FULL group have to do with anything?

I am talking about just a group....

When I and my healer friend duo'd that six dot tree, I guess that was OK as it took freaking forever.

But watching Psis, necros, and other classes solo 4dots as fast as I can DPS burn through a 3dot while almost dying is total BS.

Sure some classes should have it easier at solo'ing, but they should have it easier as in less downtime etc. Not solo'ing something that should be out of their league.

Vanguard is about as balanced as a pebble to a small moon... sorry.

[Lonestryder]

While I won't be leaving permanently (due to the Station Pass) I will be heading out again for a few months. After a few months off I decided to give it a shot again this weekend and played for many hours. I encountered a few CTDs and other issues...but had some fun as well. So I weighed the entirety of the fun with the entirety of the issues, and the issues were simply more impactful. So that's how I test a game's ability to capture me.

I'll check back in a few months, but not until all this stuff is hammered out. I'm one of those who believe the perceived improvement in performance was in direct correlation with the proportionate decrease in population, so yeah, I think in terms of how I see it, not potential.

[VoiceOfReason]

Would love to agree but you cant keep saying "just a lil longer" and it fly. VG even though launching early it still launched almost 8 months ago now and where is it? It has improved by leaps and bounds but has that brought back anyone? From what I can tell its been very minimal. With the AAA titles on the horizon you just cant hang on for some big boom. Can it pull a EQ2.....maybe if timing and luck are just right and the stars are aligned perfect. In reality VG prolly has a pop future of somewhere around 100k. Which would keep it afloat and xpacs coming once a year. I keep coming back hoping its better but gameplay still isnt all that inspired and the pop after mergers may have improved but its still the same people playing with very lil influx of new folk. And the trial island will not be a saving grace but should help bring in new folk. SOE better pray though that the game itself plays as well as the trial island is supposed to.

Ah but I can say it for now. No doubt there is some potential point in the future at which I could not. I don't think we are there yet. I don't think that point is imminent. However, I don't think it's way way out there.

THE CTD ISSUES MUST BE FIXED or the game will die.

[VoiceOfReason]

Ah but I can say it for now. No doubt there is some potential point in the future at which I could not. I don't think we are there yet. I don't think that point is imminent. However, I don't think it's way way out there.

THE CTD ISSUES MUST BE FIXED or the game will die.

I believe that it is possible to do this. Hell, I know it's possible. The question is how much of it is in VG dev control and how much is other partys' control. I think the answer is, MOST of it is in VG dev control because I don't crash with anything like the frequency I currently crash in VG when I play WoW (once a week still with coworkers). Also, before this last patch, my CTDs were almost in control... not good enough, but getting close. The last patch borked something for some of us. I find this scary. Yeah the game is improving, and yeah I expect some mistakes and missteps, but this is the one single area that they CAN NOT afford to do that in.

For me, for now, I still really like this game and am willing to play as is and give them time to straighten it out. If they do, I think the game will succeed.

[Mreynolds]

I believe that it is possible to do this. Hell, I know it's possible. The question is how much of it is in VG dev control and how much is other partys' control. I think the answer is, MOST of it is in VG dev control because I don't crash with anything like the frequency I currently crash in VG when I play WoW (once a week still with coworkers). Also, before this last patch, my CTDs were almost in control... not good enough, but getting close. The last patch borked something for some of us. I find this scary. Yeah the game is improving, and yeah I expect some mistakes and missteps, but this is the one single area that they CAN NOT afford to do that in.

For me, for now, I still really like this game and am willing to play as is and give them time to straighten it out. If they do, I think the game will succeed.

Something in the coding is still borked and hopefully they will figure it out. After all the talks after the fall of Sigil it sounds as if it was more or less just thrown together anyways and I would be willing to bet there is a ton of code that is just pointless lines of nothing. Games have always been hogs because of bloated code and with a borked up game such as this I cant even imagine how far gone it is. There is a good chance it is something small but we shall see with time. Still think they should upgrade the engine and see what happens. Cant be any worse.

[kohl]

Something in the coding is still borked and hopefully they will figure it out. After all the talks after the fall of Sigil it sounds as if it was more or less just thrown together anyways and I would be willing to bet there is a ton of code that is just pointless lines of nothing. Games have always been hogs because of bloated code and with a borked up game such as this I cant even imagine how far gone it is. There is a good chance it is something small but we shall see with time. Still think they should upgrade the engine and see what happens. Cant be any worse.

Where are they going to get the resources for such a massive undertaking as an engine upgrade/overhaul? You don't actually believe the game currently has the resources that it did at the height of its development?

[Mreynolds]

Where are they going to get the resources for such a massive undertaking as an engine upgrade/overhaul? You don't actually believe the game currently has the resources that it did at the height of its development?

No not at all. If they have half the resources I would be impressed. But was simply making the point of what needs to be done. I am not one of these who believes in life after death in the video game world. But nothing says there cannot be a small turnaround. To be completely negative is as pointless as being someone who blindly would follow someone off a cliff but thats just me.

[shadowrelm]

What does a FULL group have to do with anything?

I am talking about just a group....

When I and my healer friend duo'd that six dot tree, I guess that was OK as it took freaking forever.

But watching Psis, necros, and other classes solo 4dots as fast as I can DPS burn through a 3dot while almost dying is total BS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

i dont really care about ballanced. personally, i think D&D online is the ONLY online mmorpg that did classes the way classes are supposed to be done. rogues disarm traps and unlock doors, not to insane dps and backstabs. casters controlled large crowds, not do insane damage. tanks....tanked. they obsorbed damage, not dps. rangers ranged with arrows, not meleed, and monks kicked arse. they didnt take a beating, they didnt tank, they didnt solo, they just shaved off hitpoints in a hurry.

there can be NO BALLANCING in a role playing game. there are ROLES, not ballanced soloing ability.

all mmorpgs have diluted their classes to be soloers with a side job. hell, whens the last time a rogue in EQ or EQ2 needed to open a door or disarm a trap?

they are ALL very bland because of it. AC2 went so far as to make the only differance between a caster and a fighter the dress they wear. their dps was identical, their hit points were identical, their ability to take a hit was identical, and for every ranged spell a caster got, fighters got something to throw that did as much damage.

THAT is what you get with.....balance. a game people fall asleep playing and cant remember from day to day what class they actually started with. and no point in starting another class, unless you justwant to change the armor they wear.

i will go on to say, games need more IMBALLANCING and more focus on role than solo ability. infact, there should not be a single soloable mob in the game. even outdoor zones. that would solve the lack of groups in a hurry.

it would also end the game in a hurry. why? becuase people dont like grouping. they might say they do. they might even do a group once in a while to change the pace, but most people in this market do not like to group.

if you want to create a role playing forced grouping game, do what D&D online did. they did it right. and its a blast to play too. the best action in any online game to date. just way way small, and not very time friendly. as a result, the powergamers will blow though it in no time, and casual gamers wont have enough time to dedicate to it to get very far.

it would end up a small niche game with few servers, no low and mid level game, and a hand full of top level players blasting all the easy content.......sort of like EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, D&D online and all the rest of the forced grouping game.

so, either screw ballancing and make a true roleplaying grouping game, or find ways to make every class solo well like WoW did. anything inbetween just doesnt make anyone happy.

or, make a Wow type game and reserve all hard top end content and grouping untill the last 5 levels. deliver both.

if Vanguard ran perfectly, never crashed, delivered stunning graphics on a 286 with 8 megs of ram, it would still be exactly where it is now. a game that doesnt deliver what the casual players want, nor what the top end players want. a tiny little niche game. just like EQ1 adn EQ2, tons of low and mid level content you cant get a group to go see, and a small population of raiders that only log on for a raid that you never see ingame. a ghostetown.

you MUST please the casual gamers if you want the world to feel alive. you MUST please the powergamers if you want them to play the game and not have enough time to come to web sites and blast it out of the water because they blew through the content and are board now.

Blizzard said "srew the powergamers", and have 9 million accounts and growing. .............

[Cobalty2004]

What does a FULL group have to do with anything?

I am talking about just a group....

When I and my healer friend duo'd that six dot tree, I guess that was OK as it took freaking forever.

But watching Psis, necros, and other classes solo 4dots as fast as I can DPS burn through a 3dot while almost dying is total BS.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

i dont really care about ballanced. personally, i think D&D online is the ONLY online mmorpg that did classes the way classes are supposed to be done. rogues disarm traps and unlock doors, not to insane dps and backstabs. casters controlled large crowds, not do insane damage. tanks....tanked. they obsorbed damage, not dps. rangers ranged with arrows, not meleed, and monks kicked arse. they didnt take a beating, they didnt tank, they didnt solo, they just shaved off hitpoints in a hurry.

there can be NO BALLANCING in a role playing game. there are ROLES, not ballanced soloing ability.

all mmorpgs have diluted their classes to be soloers with a side job. hell, whens the last time a rogue in EQ or EQ2 needed to open a door or disarm a trap?

they are ALL very bland because of it. AC2 went so far as to make the only differance between a caster and a fighter the dress they wear. their dps was identical, their hit points were identical, their ability to take a hit was identical, and for every ranged spell a caster got, fighters got something to throw that did as much damage.

THAT is what you get with.....balance. a game people fall asleep playing and cant remember from day to day what class they actually started with. and no point in starting another class, unless you justwant to change the armor they wear.

i will go on to say, games need more IMBALLANCING and more focus on role than solo ability. infact, there should not be a single soloable mob in the game. even outdoor zones. that would solve the lack of groups in a hurry.

it would also end the game in a hurry. why? becuase people dont like grouping. they might say they do. they might even do a group once in a while to change the pace, but most people in this market do not like to group.

if you want to create a role playing forced grouping game, do what D&D online did. they did it right. and its a blast to play too. the best action in any online game to date. just way way small, and not very time friendly. as a result, the powergamers will blow though it in no time, and casual gamers wont have enough time to dedicate to it to get very far.

it would end up a small niche game with few servers, no low and mid level game, and a hand full of top level players blasting all the easy content.......sort of like EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, D&D online and all the rest of the forced grouping game.

so, either screw ballancing and make a true roleplaying grouping game, or find ways to make every class solo well like WoW did. anything inbetween just doesnt make anyone happy.

or, make a Wow type game and reserve all hard top end content and grouping untill the last 5 levels. deliver both.

if Vanguard ran perfectly, never crashed, delivered stunning graphics on a 286 with 8 megs of ram, it would still be exactly where it is now. a game that doesnt deliver what the casual players want, nor what the top end players want. a tiny little niche game. just like EQ1 adn EQ2, tons of low and mid level content you cant get a group to go see, and a small population of raiders that only log on for a raid that you never see ingame. a ghostetown.

you MUST please the casual gamers if you want the world to feel alive. you MUST please the powergamers if you want them to play the game and not have enough time to come to web sites and blast it out of the water because they blew through the content and are board now.

Blizzard said "srew the powergamers", and have 9 million accounts and growing. .............

Our definitions of balance are different.

My definition of balance is that no class feels weak to another, in general.

Of course a tank class will feel weak damage wise compared to a rogue or mage.

But their... desirability? and overall effect on the game should be the same.

This holds even more so when you have archetypes. If one tank class is flat out better in all fields of play than the others, do you not agree there is a problem?

[Diaxis]

Where are they going to get the resources for such a massive undertaking as an engine upgrade/overhaul? You don't actually believe the game currently has the resources that it did at the height of its development?

Spot on. Sigil made a huge mistake when they decided to overload someone else's licensed 3D engine. Basically they are hog-tied to the engine they have, and no one ON STAFF knows where the bottlenecks are. All the game content and geometry was designed around working with Unreal, so it wouldn't be an easy task to port it over. I'm guessing it would be MUCH easier to design half the game from scratch, and if they're going to do that, might as well unload all the negative baggage VG is pulling and make a new game.

[Abelian75]

Our definitions of balance are different.

My definition of balance is that no class feels weak to another, in general.


The actual, meaningful definition of "balancing" a game is to make it such that there are no dominated strategies. A dominated strategy is a particular choice (class, weapon, profession, skill, whatever) in the game which is entirely inferior (or at best equal) to another choice in all circumstances. So if there is a class in a game that is always inferior to another class, or set of classes, it is unbalanced.

Of course even if you don't have any strictly dominated strategies, you probably don't want any nearly dominated ones either. Like, maybe there's a class in the game that is almost always useless, but on one encounter they are extremely useful. That still isn't good, even though it isn't a strictly dominated strategy.

Balance does not mean making all classes the same, as some people assume. Of course, making everything the same is one easy way to achieve guaranteed balance, but it's also dull.

So yeah, your definition is pretty much right, just clarifying.

[VoiceOfReason]

Spot on. Sigil made a huge mistake when they decided to overload someone else's licensed 3D engine. Basically they are hog-tied to the engine they have, and no one ON STAFF knows where the bottlenecks are. All the game content and geometry was designed around working with Unreal, so it wouldn't be an easy task to port it over. I'm guessing it would be MUCH easier to design half the game from scratch, and if they're going to do that, might as well unload all the negative baggage VG is pulling and make a new game.

Unless you were one of the coders involved, I think you are making too many assumptions. First of all, you assume that the performance and CTD problems are a direct result of the manner in which Sigil changed the Unreal code. This may not be true at all. Coders often add layers to things like engines to change them and also they have to call the APIs provided by the native code. In the code invoking the APIs, all kinds of memory errors and poor algorithms could be included. In short, the offending code segment(s) may not be a part of the adapted engine at all but instead might be something that is NOT tightly coupled to the original Unreal code which would mean that they have every hope of understanding the problem, if they can find it.

Also, you assume that the adapting portions of a licensed 3D engine is necessarlly a mistake (please don't tell me that they rewrote the entire thing - someone had said that all of the network code was completely rewritten, but the engine is composed of much more than that - and I don't believe the assertion that all the network code was completely re-written anyway). Lots of companies adapt the 3D engines that they purchase for use - this is not an uncommon thing to do.

I'm not saying that you might not be right, if I interpret what you wrote to mean this: They might have made changes to a system that they did not understand and might have done so in a frenetic and unorganized way due to lack of time.

Even if the above is the actuality, this is not necessarily the hopeless scenario that you (and Kohl) paint. This leads to the last assumption. Just because they put these bugs in during a time when they had more resources, does not mean that they can't find and correct them with less resources. Often this kind of thing is fixed and found by just one guy.

[rhagz]

Also, you assume that the adapting portions of a licensed 3D engine is necessarlly a mistake (please don't tell me that they rewrote the entire thing - someone had said that all of the network code was completely rewritten, but the engine is composed of much more than that - and I don't believe the assertion that all the network code was completely re-written anyway). Lots of companies adapt the 3D engines that they purchase for use - this is not an uncommon thing to do..

One of the lead coders has already said that they wanted every line rewritten. You can keep living in denial if you want, but the facts are plainly there for anyone to see.

[VoiceOfReason]

One of the lead coders has already said that they wanted every line rewritten. You can keep living in denial if you want, but the facts are plainly there for anyone to see.

As I stated in my last post - which is plainly there to see - one of the designers (not coders) claimed that the networking portion of the code (not the entire 3D engine) was supposedly rewritten. I'm not the one with a loose grip on reality here.

[rhagz]

They didn't rewrite network code, they wrote it. Unreal Engine does not have MMO network support. But what the hell does that have to do with anything? Graphics and performance have nothing to do with network code.

[danbala]

On other threads people have begun to comment on the population falling off again. Can anyone confirm this?

[VoiceOfReason]

They didn't rewrite network code, they wrote it. Unreal Engine does not have MMO network support. But what the hell does that have to do with anything? Graphics and performance have nothing to do with network code.

I think I stupidly misunderstood your reply. From the context I took your reply to mean that you were saying a developer had said that the engine had been rewritten. So a lot of my response to that particular post is meaningless. My bad.

I also did not know that there was no MMO network support shipped with the engine. So my bad again. If that is the case, then I can believe that much, though maybe not all of the existing networking code was redone. Every line thrown out? Still hard to believe.

None of this changes the fact that it is more likely than not that most horrendous the problems will be found and corrected. It is a finite search and they don't have to make it perfect. The game can survive with SOME performance issues (many have, including EQ1 and WoW). No, they don't have to completely fix performance - but they do have to fix all but a very occasional CTD. Those things are typically ERRORs in code and not architectural issues.

[rhagz]

I think I stupidly misunderstood your reply. From the context I took your reply to mean that you were saying a developer had said that the engine had been rewritten.

The engine WAS rewritten. The base Unreal Engine is entirely unrecognizable compared to where it ended up. This is a known fact. It was stated throughout beta many times that the engine was rewritten and has since been confirmed by team members saying this was a result of some 'egos' up the chain. The network code was written basically from scratch since even Epic themselves will tell you the base package is not ideal for MMOs since it does not have the network support or code to facilitate it.

And yes, they need to fix it.. they need to fix it 6 months ago. In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls.

[Cobalty2004]

The engine WAS rewritten. The base Unreal Engine is entirely unrecognizable compared to where it ended up. This is a known fact. It was stated throughout beta many times that the engine was rewritten and has since been confirmed by team members saying this was a result of some 'egos' up the chain. The network code was written basically from scratch since even Epic themselves will tell you the base package is not ideal for MMOs since it does not have the network support or code to facilitate it.

And yes, they need to fix it.. they need to fix it 6 months ago. In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls.

I love the Unreal engines. All of them. Hell its so nostalgic playing Unreal 1....

But Vanguard was unUnreal.

Sorry, but that game had the worst coders I have ever seen.

I remember hearing each chunk didn't have its own dedicated packet of resources. I.E. meshes textures etc..

So while in Tursh you would be loading shit from VT and New Targ.... LOLOLOL

[VoiceOfReason]

The engine WAS rewritten. The base Unreal Engine is entirely unrecognizable compared to where it ended up. This is a known fact. It was stated throughout beta many times that the engine was rewritten and has since been confirmed by team members saying this was a result of some 'egos' up the chain. The network code was written basically from scratch since even Epic themselves will tell you the base package is not ideal for MMOs since it does not have the network support or code to facilitate it.

And yes, they need to fix it.. they need to fix it 6 months ago. In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls.

Ok, they bought the Unreal engine. You say that they then they completely rewrote the network portion and rewrote much of the rest of the engine as well.

This is information that I did not know and if Kohl did know it than he did not make assumptions and my post about him making assumptions is negated.

I think Kohl also said that they no longer have on staff the people that understand these alterations. If that is the case, then they are in much more hot water than I had thought. It would make it less likely that they will succeed in time to catch the upswell that the mergers and the raid zone and potentially the trial could bring in.

But it does not change the fact that there is much to like about the game, and there is hope that these problems can be alleviated. Many of us out here really hope so.

Sometimes there is something to what you post Ragz, and then you have to go and destroy credibility with hyperbole this:

"In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls."

This states boldly that there will have have been no CTD reductions, no performance improvements, no bugs fixed and no raid content added within a couple of months from now. This statement is already untrue today. Statements like this are WHY there needs to be one or more "voices of reason" speaking up on this board that without such interjections, would give the term "yellow journalism" a new face.

[Cobalty2004]

This states boldly that there will have have been no CTD reductions, no performance improvements, no bugs fixed and no raid content added within a couple of months from now. This statement is already untrue today. Statements like this are WHY there needs to be one or more "voices of reason" speaking up on this board that without such interjections, would give the term "yellow journalism" a new face.

But did subs GROW or SHRINK from launch date?

What you describe that they fixed doesn't mean shit unless they have something to show for it.

[rhagz]

Sometimes there is something to what you post Ragz, and then you have to go and destroy credibility with hyperbole this:

"In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls."

This states boldly that there will have have been no CTD reductions, no performance improvements, no bugs fixed and no raid content added within a couple of months from now. This statement is already untrue today. Statements like this are WHY there needs to be one or more "voices of reason" speaking up on this board that without such interjections, would give the term "yellow journalism" a new face.

It's not hyperbole because as of now I have seen zero reason to believe they will have any of that done by the end of the year. Slightly fewer CTDs and some bug fixes may be a huge deal in your world, but in the real world it's a dollar short and 8 months late.

We are well beyond that mythical post-release point where everyone claimed the game would be retail-worthy.. and would you say they achieved it?

[VoiceOfReason]

It's not hyperbole because as of now I have seen zero reason to believe they will have any of that done by the end of the year. Slightly fewer CTDs and some bug fixes may be a huge deal in your world, but in the real world it's a dollar short and 8 months late.

We are well beyond that mythical post-release point where everyone claimed the game would be retail-worthy.. and would you say they achieved it?

It was hyperbole because you have now rephrased your statement to be more factual.

Please understand, I don't object to you or anyone else, taking a stance that says they believe that the VG Developers are not moving fast enough to correct problems or that their tardiness in addressing some key issues will result in the demise of the game. In fact, in pessimistic moments, I even fear such myself. What I object to is the frequent and continued misrepresentation of reality towards the negative side that some folks here in this board not only evince, but in fact take great delight in.

This just spreads FUD that might hinder the (still) possible success of the game. You might wonder how I can throw out numbers like an eventual 800K subscribers one week and worry about the possible demise of the game the next. In reality, I am not being inconsistent. My most optomistic musings are based upon the contingency that the Sigil Devs, now that things have settled into a rythm and the spectre of imminent insolvency has been banished, will be able to make the fixes and changes that are necessary to allow the great parts of this game to shine through. My pessimistic fears are based upon the possibility that they will take too long to do this and they really will miss the window of opportunity that surely will not stay open forever.

I remain optimistic about the game's future primarily because I see much that is good in it. As days and weeks go by, I'll admit to a slowly growing fear that they are moving too slowly.... there does not seem to be enough urgency to fix the CTDs.

Having said all that, the propensity here to focus on the negative, and the delight that some of you take in doing so, is still out of place in a game site IMO.

[Kayd]

I'm not that pessimistic about the games future. SOE seems to have a plan and nothing I've seen indicates they are doing anything other than executing that plan. The plan has a goal: the re-release of the game, presumably coupled with a marketing push, along with the ability to try it for free via a trial island. It sounds as if two more game updates are planned before the re-release which will add permanent high end flying mounts, lots of high end content (probably well under way and shelved when the push to revamp newbie areas occured at the end of beta), lots of raid content, and possibly even the long forgotten fourth content Loethenland. As long as SOE remains commited to that plan I think all the risk lies in whether those changes will turn Vanguard into a great game that will actually retain players. I believe it could and so I remain cautiously optimistic about the game. If they can stop hemoraging players and actually start growing the subscriber base Vanguard will have a future, and I believe it could reach a respectable subscriber level.

The game needs a high end or we won't see subscriber numbers turn around. The plan is to give it that high end. Only when the plan is nearing completion will we be able to see and judge whether Vanguard is a game with a future. Till then this is all just a lot of debate and energy spent on a subject where one or other other side will be proven right in time.

[kcxiv]

.

Having said all that, the propensity here to focus on the negative, and the delight that some of you take in doing so, is still out of place in a game site IMO.

I think Brad slept with his girlfriend or his mom. He's been running hatred hardcore on this game for a long time. He's just trying to be a E-bully or something. Just let it go. He wont EVER stop replying. He lives for this shit.

[Lonestryder]

Ok, they bought the Unreal engine. You say that they then they completely rewrote the network portion and rewrote much of the rest of the engine as well.

This is information that I did not know and if Kohl did know it than he did not make assumptions and my post about him making assumptions is negated.

I think Kohl also said that they no longer have on staff the people that understand these alterations. If that is the case, then they are in much more hot water than I had thought. It would make it less likely that they will succeed in time to catch the upswell that the mergers and the raid zone and potentially the trial could bring in.

But it does not change the fact that there is much to like about the game, and there is hope that these problems can be alleviated. Many of us out here really hope so.

Sometimes there is something to what you post Ragz, and then you have to go and destroy credibility with hyperbole this:

"In a short couple of months this game is going to be a year old and no better off than where it started save some guild halls."

This states boldly that there will have have been no CTD reductions, no performance improvements, no bugs fixed and no raid content added within a couple of months from now. This statement is already untrue today. Statements like this are WHY there needs to be one or more "voices of reason" speaking up on this board that without such interjections, would give the term "yellow journalism" a new face.

Improving those things are a given, and do not make the game "better", just playable. So I can state, for my buck, the "game" is "NO BETTER". Yes, some improvements in performance have occurred (but not nearly enough), but the "game" has not really changed, with the exception of some "streamlining" due to what was called "player confusion" over certain game mechanics.

Who cares if folks come here to bash the game? As a self-proclaimed fan of it, why bother with us at all? There is plenty of ersatz sweetness flowing from the actual game site, which is where I would hang exclusively if I were a true lover of the game. You know we're here, and why. You defending the game won't change anything...not any more than us telling it like we see it. This type of thread from the official forums drives me to peruse other sites (http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=18418) in between playing sessions on EQ2. Why the need to defend the game? It stands on its own. If you like it, play it. Who needs posting? Reading through the post I linked is actually quite scary.

[Cobalty2004]

Improving those things are a given, and do not make the game "better", just playable. So I can state, for my buck, the "game" is "NO BETTER". Yes, some improvements performance have occurred (but not nearly enough), but the "game" has not really changed, with the exception of some "streamlining" due to what was called "player confusion" over certain game mechanics.

Who cares if folks come here to bash the game? As a self-proclaimed fan of it, why bother with us at all? There is plenty of ersatz sweetness flowing from the actual game site, which is where I would hang exclusively if I were a true lover of the game. You know we're here, and why. You defending the game won't change anything...not any more than us telling it like we see it. This type of thread from the official forums drives me to peruse other sites (http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=18418) in between playing sessions on EQ2. Why the need to defend the game? It stands on its own. If you like it, play it. Who needs posting? Reading through the post I linked is actually quite scary.

The people in your link seem to be on xTc....

[shadowrelm]

The game needs a high end or we won't see subscriber numbers turn around. The plan is to give it that high end. Only when the plan is nearing completion will we be able to see and judge whether Vanguard is a game with a future. Till then this is all just a lot of debate and energy spent on a subject where one or other other side will be proven right in time.
-------------------------------------------------------------

i agree. its all alot of talk.

strongly dissagree with you however on the solution. there does need to be a high end game, and that will improve numbers a little.

yes, a little.

if the top end game isnt as good as EQ1, or EQ2, or even WoW, why would people leave those games to make a home at Vanguard? thats ALOT of content they would have to best.

and still, the low and mid level game would be deserted.

a high end game isnt going to save Vanguard. it might make the top end players stay another month or so till they blow through it, but it wont make them stay, and a high end game isnt going to fill the low and mid level zones. if you doubt that, log on to EQ1 and see it first hand.

if they cant get people to group, the casual players, what you are seeing right now is what Vanguard will be a couple months after the party at release.

earned rewards, death penalties, and forced grouping are dead. but go ahead and focus on the top end players, the market needs a definitave failure to mabe finnally get the developers to understand what blizzard already knows.

200,000 people came. 200,000 people saw. 90 percent of them walked away, the majority of those walked away LONG before they even got close to the missing top end game.

they will walk away again too.

[Cobalty2004]

The game needs a high end or we won't see subscriber numbers turn around. The plan is to give it that high end. Only when the plan is nearing completion will we be able to see and judge whether Vanguard is a game with a future. Till then this is all just a lot of debate and energy spent on a subject where one or other other side will be proven right in time.
-------------------------------------------------------------

i agree. its all alot of talk.

strongly dissagree with you however on the solution. there does need to be a high end game, and that will improve numbers a little.

yes, a little.

if the top end game isnt as good as EQ1, or EQ2, or even WoW, why would people leave those games to make a home at Vanguard? thats ALOT of content they would have to best.

and still, the low and mid level game would be deserted.

a high end game isnt going to save Vanguard. it might make the top end players stay another month or so till they blow through it, but it wont make them stay, and a high end game isnt going to fill the low and mid level zones. if you doubt that, log on to EQ1 and see it first hand.

if they cant get people to group, the casual players, what you are seeing right now is what Vanguard will be a couple months after the party at release.

earned rewards, death penalties, and forced grouping are dead. but go ahead and focus on the top end players, the market needs a definitave failure to mabe finnally get the developers to understand what blizzard already knows.

200,000 people came. 200,000 people saw. 90 percent of them walked away, the majority of those walked away LONG before they even got close to the missing top end game.

they will walk away again too.

I wouldn't say death penalties, earned rewards, and forced grouping are dead.

Death penalties are needed to prevent exploits, I.E. travel by suicide.

Forcing players to group as the only way to progress in a game is not needed. But when solo'ing becomes more viable in terms of pretty much everything, loot, xp, ease, than whats the point of the (MM) part in MMO?

[Nikantor]

I wouldn't say death penalties, earned rewards, and forced grouping are dead.

Death penalties are needed to prevent exploits, I.E. travel by suicide.

Forcing players to group as the only way to progress in a game is not needed. But when solo'ing becomes more viable in terms of pretty much everything, loot, xp, ease, than whats the point of the (MM) part in MMO?

Noo Fraktal dont do it, that was almost a positive comment. Albeit not directly a comment toward vanguard. This game DOES need high end right now due to the simple fact that probably 60% of the active players are waiting for it. No i dont think High end content is a solution but at least it gives the player base still playing something more to chew on.

Vanguard IS getting better. compared to launch its a MUCH better game, far more stable and far more cohesive. Yes it still has a ways to go no denials.

[danbala]

Improving those things are a given, and do not make the game "better", just playable. So I can state, for my buck, the "game" is "NO BETTER". Yes, some improvements in performance have occurred (but not nearly enough), but the "game" has not really changed, with the exception of some "streamlining" due to what was called "player confusion" over certain game mechanics.

Who cares if folks come here to bash the game? As a self-proclaimed fan of it, why bother with us at all? There is plenty of ersatz sweetness flowing from the actual game site, which is where I would hang exclusively if I were a true lover of the game. You know we're here, and why. You defending the game won't change anything...not any more than us telling it like we see it. This type of thread from the official forums drives me to peruse other sites (http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=18418) in between playing sessions on EQ2. Why the need to defend the game? It stands on its own. If you like it, play it. Who needs posting? Reading through the post I linked is actually quite scary.

Favorite scary quote: "Bump- More goodness guys lets show the complainers what the real VG players feel. *Hugs his VG pillow tighter* LOL"

yeah, bite that VG pillow . . .

[Cobalty2004]

Noo Fraktal dont do it, that was almost a positive comment. Albeit not directly a comment toward vanguard. This game DOES need high end right now due to the simple fact that probably 60% of the active players are waiting for it. No i dont think High end content is a solution but at least it gives the player base still playing something more to chew on.

Vanguard IS getting better. compared to launch its a MUCH better game, far more stable and far more cohesive. Yes it still has a ways to go no denials.

My comment was about MMOs in general.

I mean you have to have a death penalty. Maybe not xp loss or w/e, but something has to tell you that "Hey! Dying is bad!"

I agree with your last paragraph, VG is a better game than what was released, but it still has more than a hop and a skip to go.

[Lonestryder]

Favorite scary quote: "Bump- More goodness guys lets show the complainers what the real VG players feel. *Hugs his VG pillow tighter* LOL"

yeah, bite that VG pillow . . .

Yeah, I thought that post was a joke at first, but then after a bunch of folks jumped on the bandwagon, I was truly worried. I've not seen that kind of self delusion except in textbooks. It's almost as though everyone was reading through some kind of kinky Vanguard joke dialogue.

[Jordan Jax]

Yeah, I thought that post was a joke at first, but then after a bunch of folks jumped on the bandwagon, I was truly worried. I've not seen that kind of self delusion except in textbooks. It's almost as though everyone was reading through some kind of kinky Vanguard joke dialogue.

I agree. In fact, it's almost as bad as the self delusion that occurs on this board about how horrible the haters thinks Vanguard is. I truly believe they have more of an emotional investment in the absolute and total failure of this game than any of the fanbois do in its success.

[Joodah]

I truly believe they have more of an emotional investment in the absolute and total failure of this game than any of the fanbois do in its success.

BINGO! Ding ding ding! :D

[rhagz]

I agree. In fact, it's almost as bad as the self delusion that occurs on this board about how horrible the haters thinks Vanguard is. I truly believe they have more of an emotional investment in the absolute and total failure of this game than any of the fanbois do in its success.

No.

What some people do have is a vested interest in ensuring that future companies know that trying to pull a Vanguard will not be tolerated. I'd rather companies learn from the mistakes others make instead of thinking it's okay to release pay for beta products and get rewarded for it.

[Cobalty2004]

I agree. In fact, it's almost as bad as the self delusion that occurs on this board about how horrible the haters thinks Vanguard is. I truly believe they have more of an emotional investment in the absolute and total failure of this game than any of the fanbois do in its success.

No because look at Joodah.

[VoiceOfReason]

No.

What some people do have is a vested interest in ensuring that future companies know that trying to pull a Vanguard will not be tolerated. I'd rather companies learn from the mistakes others make instead of thinking it's okay to release pay for beta products and get rewarded for it.

A laudable idea. You take the position that there should be a price to pay for releasing so early that people end up paying for beta. I agree. But how much is enough? Must the game be completely destroyed forever to make this point? I'd like to suggest that they already have paid a helluva price.

[VoiceOfReason]

Improving those things are a given, and do not make the game "better", just playable. So I can state, for my buck, the "game" is "NO BETTER". Yes, some improvements in performance have occurred (but not nearly enough), but the "game" has not really changed, with the exception of some "streamlining" due to what was called "player confusion" over certain game mechanics.

Who cares if folks come here to bash the game? As a self-proclaimed fan of it, why bother with us at all? There is plenty of ersatz sweetness flowing from the actual game site, which is where I would hang exclusively if I were a true lover of the game. You know we're here, and why. You defending the game won't change anything...not any more than us telling it like we see it. This type of thread from the official forums drives me to peruse other sites (http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=18418) in between playing sessions on EQ2. Why the need to defend the game? It stands on its own. If you like it, play it. Who needs posting? Reading through the post I linked is actually quite scary.

Sorry for the late response on this one.

Seems to me that you quibble with words. Most people would call the game "better" than it was if they can now play it without crashing twice an hour. Aside from that, if you want to equate the word "better" with game play or content, I more or less agree with you... not a lot has changed as of yet - when the ship is sinking you don't polish the brass.

But here's where I disagree. I think the game is fun. In my mind and in the minds of many others, It doesn't really need much of a change in game mechanics (though I really hate this total BOP/BOE business).

As for why should I care if folks bash the game? Well, I like the game and want it to succeed. If the world is filled with anti-VG sentiment, this will sway some potential buyers ... right now they need more buyers big time. Now mind you, it is fair to voice negative opinions. What I object to is the canted, dogpile, cruel and mean negativity that used to infest these boards. But you know what? It seems like it is getting better lately in that regard.

[rhagz]

Seems to me that you quibble with words. Most people would call the game "better" than it was if they can now play it without crashing twice an hour.

Now who is mincing words? Would you really say that crashing once an hour makes the game 2x better then when you crashed twice an hour?

[Joodah]

No because look at Joodah.

... said the guy with 1600 posts on this forum. :rolleyes:

[VoiceOfReason]

Now who is mincing words? Would you really say that crashing once an hour makes the game 2x better then when you crashed twice an hour?

You are putting minced words in my mouth. I never said that the game now crashes one per hour. I said that it used to crash two times an hour (for some people) but that this has been improved. Based upon what I said you could just have well inferred that the game now crashes only once a year ... but of course you didn't.

For the record I think it still crashes too much. I am currently crashing about once per play session. That needs to improve IMO.

[Joodah]

No.

What some people do have is a vested interest in ensuring that future companies know that trying to pull a Vanguard will not be tolerated. I'd rather companies learn from the mistakes others make instead of thinking it's okay to release pay for beta products and get rewarded for it.

Interesting - I'm curious how posting your "vested interest" on a Vanguard forum and not the "future companies" websites is going to accomplish your goal.

But hey I'm sure all of those up and coming MMO companies are voraciously reading your posts here to make sure they stay on the up and up, right? :D

[rhagz]

Interesting - I'm curious how posting your "vested interest" on a Vanguard forum and not the "future companies" websites is going to accomplish your goal.

But hey I'm sure all of those up and coming MMO companies are voraciously reading your posts here to make sure they stay on the up and up, right? :D

You don't think companies monitor the websites and feedback of competition? Naive much?

Anyway, who is to say I don't post on other websites as well? Joodah? Well Joodah has been wrong before.

[Jordan Jax]

A laudable idea. You take the position that there should be a price to pay for releasing so early that people end up paying for beta. I agree. But how much is enough? Must the game be completely destroyed forever to make this point? I'd like to suggest that they already have paid a helluva price.

A laudable idea if only it were true. he doesn't care that little johnny bought a game for $40 and wasn't able to ride that flying mount on the back of the box for a couple months. This was the rallying cry for Utnayan on FOH as well for months and months...until we were able to decipher through his psychotic ravings that he had years of pent up nerd rage against Brad for wasting months of his life in unfinished EQ zones waiting for that mob that would never pop.

the game wasn't what he wanted, that's it. wether it was performance, stability, the game isn't exactly like wow...whatever...lets just be clear it has nothing to do with protecting consumers.

[Ziegfried Trueblade]

I gotta admit that Sigil proved incompetent, and that the SOE buyout only made sense.That doesn't mean I'm gonna buy Vanguard now, cause the system reqs are still high and I'm not gonna go buy a new comp for an average game. On top of all that, I don't like SOE much.

Well, as long as the game survives maybe someday when I get a new comp I'll play it.

[rhagz]

A laudable idea if only it were true. he doesn't care that little johnny bought a game for $40 and wasn't able to ride that flying mount on the back of the box for a couple months. This was the rallying cry for Utnayan on FOH as well for months and months...until we were able to decipher through his psychotic ravings that he had years of pent up nerd rage against Brad for wasting months of his life in unfinished EQ zones waiting for that mob that would never pop.

the game wasn't what he wanted, that's it. wether it was performance, stability, the game isn't exactly like wow...whatever...lets just be clear it has nothing to do with protecting consumers.

Can you tell me the powerball numbers too because you are obviously psychic? Oh wait, you aren't even close..

[VoiceOfReason]

A laudable idea if only it were true. he doesn't care that little johnny bought a game for $40 and wasn't able to ride that flying mount on the back of the box for a couple months. This was the rallying cry for Utnayan on FOH as well for months and months...until we were able to decipher through his psychotic ravings that he had years of pent up nerd rage against Brad for wasting months of his life in unfinished EQ zones waiting for that mob that would never pop.

the game wasn't what he wanted, that's it. whether it was performance, stability, the game isn't exactly like wow...whatever...lets just be clear it has nothing to do with protecting consumers.

Well, for sure he's upset with what was "promised" vs what he actually got. I can't be sure though that he doesn't believe he is doing a good/right thing as well by taking the approach that he does....

However, I'm glad you brought this back up, because I am interested in what response he might make to that particular post of mine. Seems he ignored it or missed it....

[VoiceOfReason]

A laudable idea if only it were true. he doesn't care that little johnny bought a game for $40 and wasn't able to ride that flying mount on the back of the box for a couple months. This was the rallying cry for Utnayan on FOH as well for months and months...until we were able to decipher through his psychotic ravings that he had years of pent up nerd rage against Brad for wasting months of his life in unfinished EQ zones waiting for that mob that would never pop.

the game wasn't what he wanted, that's it. wether it was performance, stability, the game isn't exactly like wow...whatever...lets just be clear it has nothing to do with protecting consumers.

I'd like to add too that I am generally supportive of your posts and I sure can understand having a belly-full like you appear to have.

[rhagz]

However, I'm glad you brought this back up, because I am interested in what response he might make to that particular post of mine. Seems he ignored it or missed it....

If you are referring to asking what I think is a fair price, you aren't going to like the answer. The fact is, if Vanguard goes on to succeed at all it sends the wrong message. If the game turns ANY profit, then it defeats the entire premise of accountability. A simple delay in profits won't be enough to dissuade anyone because it's infinitely easier to release a shoddy product on a low budget and fix it after the fact on the consumers' dime.

So my preferred solution would honestly have to be for Vanguard to shut down or the next best thing, be pushed to the back alongside MxO and Planetside, which seems to be the likely outcome.

[VoiceOfReason]

If you are referring to asking what I think is a fair price, you aren't going to like the answer. The fact is, if Vanguard goes on to succeed at all it sends the wrong message. If the game turns ANY profit, then it defeats the entire premise of accountability. A simple delay in profits won't be enough to dissuade anyone because it's infinitely easier to release a shoddy product on a low budget and fix it after the fact on the consumers' dime.

So my preferred solution would honestly have to be for Vanguard to shut down or the next best thing, be pushed to the back alongside MxO and Planetside, which seems to be the likely outcome.

Well, you have a right to your opinion. To me however, having to sell your game at probably bargain basement prices and then watching it struggle for a year - maybe longer... I think that has got to be pretty friggin dissuasive.

In any event, nobody in their right mind would intentionally release as immature a "beta" as this was - they were pretty much forced into it. So, I am not so sure there is anything to "prevent" at all. Nobody is going to do this unless they have to, and if they have to, they are gonna do it.

Oh, one last thing. In regard to this:

>> A simple delay in profits won't be enough to dissuade anyone because it's infinitely easier to release a shoddy product on a low budget and fix it after the fact on the consumers' dime.

A long delay in profits is enough to dissuade many investors.

[rhagz]

Nobody is going to do this unless they have to, and if they have to, they are gonna do it.

And if they have to do it then there should be a sticker on the box that says the game may not actually include the things it says it includes on the box. It's dishonest to print up a list of features and release videos highlighting those features and go on record stating those features will be available then launch a game that does not have them.

And you are right, it is dissuasive and without SOE and the Station Pass this game would already have closed its doors or at least be on the verge of it.

[VoiceOfReason]

And if they have to do it then there should be a sticker on the box that says the game may not actually include the things it says it includes on the box. It's dishonest to print up a list of features and release videos highlighting those features and go on record stating those features will be available then launch a game that does not have them.

And you are right, it is dissuasive and without SOE and the Station Pass this game would already have closed its doors or at least be on the verge of it.

And YOU are right about dishonesty in advertising. It is in fact quite illegal. To the extent that they did this or flirted with this (unfortunately, happens all the time) then they did wrong and I think that sucks.

[Joodah]

You don't think companies monitor the websites and feedback of competition? Naive much?

Anyway, who is to say I don't post on other websites as well? Joodah? Well Joodah has been wrong before.

LOL yeh I'm sure the AoC and Warhammer devs are monitoring the bashfest here closely :D Talk about "naive".

[Jordan Jax]

If you are referring to asking what I think is a fair price, you aren't going to like the answer. The fact is, if Vanguard goes on to succeed at all it sends the wrong message. If the game turns ANY profit, then it defeats the entire premise of accountability. A simple delay in profits won't be enough to dissuade anyone because it's infinitely easier to release a shoddy product on a low budget and fix it after the fact on the consumers' dime.

So my preferred solution would honestly have to be for Vanguard to shut down or the next best thing, be pushed to the back alongside MxO and Planetside, which seems to be the likely outcome.

Isn't it the consumers choice whether to be smart and wait a week for a few reviews to come out before dropping the money on the box, especially considering the track record of mmorpgs? Isn't it the individual consumers choice whether to continue to pay the monthly sub or not for what you call an unfinished game?

Frankly this whole accountability angle is just...stupid and non-sensical. I don't know why you continue to try to shred this game under the guise that you are trying to right the wrongs of the big evil corporations from stealing money from the poor consumers that can't think for themselves. It's an insult to those consumers and it's an insult to the people on this board that you think we are dumb enough to believe it.

There are so many other games out there that were in a thousand times worse shape than this - were you all over the D&L boards fighting the good fight for the people when that game was released? Horizons? Somehow i doubt it.

Truth is, for people who like the kind of game VG is (no instancing, more of a challenge, no zones, more realistic graphics, fantasy themed etc.), there isn't another game out there that really comes close. And if they continue to work on it and make good decisions it could become a great game. At any rate it is nowhere remotely near the trainwreck you think it is...but everyone here already knew that.

[ikaoma420]

LOL yeh I'm sure the AoC and Warhammer devs are monitoring the bashfest here closely :D Talk about "naive".

If you don't think they know what a disaster Vanguard was and if you don't think they have people that read forums (maybe not this one) then I'm sorry but its you that's naive. I have worked for 2 game companies and they tell testers to read game forums and write basic reports on what they find. Part of making a good product is knowing your competition.

I just spent the weekend in San Diego hanging with a bunch of people from AMD/ATI mobile division. None of them have played Vanguard they stayed far away from it but when I mentioned that I gave it a go they knew exactly what all the problems with the game are. And these aren't even game Devs. The word gets out and gets past around. Vanguard was such a train wreck people watched from the sidelines and still do because they are interested to see what the outcome will be. Can you put out a crap game and have people pay to finish the product or will people say no we wont put up with that. How long will people wait for you to fix your game before they get sick of it and quit? These are just some of the things the PC game industry is interested to find out about.

[rhagz]

Isn't it the consumers choice whether to be smart and wait a week for a few reviews to come out before dropping the money on the box, especially considering the track record of mmorpgs?

How about changing that track record and making MMOs into something you can count on actually working out of the box instead of letting them become a festering genre of mediocrity until no one wants to make them anymore? Nah, screw that. Release betas, let consumers gamble until they are tired of getting burned.

There are so many other games out there that were in a thousand times worse shape than this - were you all over the D&L boards fighting the good fight for the people when that game was released? Horizons? Somehow i doubt it.

I'm sure I don't need to quote the classic phrase regarding assumptions. Dark and Light actually went free to play while they fixed it. More than VG has offered, that's for sure.

[Cobalty2004]

... said the guy with 1600 posts on this forum. :rolleyes:

You know thats funny because 1000 of those posts are related to the warrior class and are in the defensive fighter section.

There was a time when I enjoyed VG and loved contributing to the warrior class.

But when Venge tells me that the devs (class balance) are a bunch of ****s who couldn't create a class named "Generic" than **** these guys...

(And no Venge didn't word it like that, hell he wasn't even negative, but I knew what he meant)

[Jordan Jax]

If you are referring to asking what I think is a fair price, you aren't going to like the answer. The fact is, if Vanguard goes on to succeed at all it sends the wrong message. If the game turns ANY profit, then it defeats the entire premise of accountability. A simple delay in profits won't be enough to dissuade anyone because it's infinitely easier to release a shoddy product on a low budget and fix it after the fact on the consumers' dime.

So my preferred solution would honestly have to be for Vanguard to shut down or the next best thing, be pushed to the back alongside MxO and Planetside, which seems to be the likely outcome.

How about changing that track record and making MMOs into something you can count on actually working out of the box instead of letting them become a festering genre of mediocrity until no one wants to make them anymore? Nah, screw that. Release betas, let consumers gamble until they are tired of getting burned.



I'm sure I don't need to quote the classic phrase regarding assumptions. Dark and Light actually went free to play while they fixed it. More than VG has offered, that's for sure.

And like i said, Dark and Light was so much worse than VG out of the box you honestly can't even compare the two. And that is saying a lot because i fully admit VG was released in a beta stage (but i still liked it and paid for it and continue to pay for it). D&L was more like pre-alpha.

I bought VG on day one. I played it. I liked it. I continue to like it (despite them trying to make it too easy). I continue to pay for it. Others like it as well. They continue to pay for it. We don't see this as a mediocre game at all. It's a good game with the potential to become a great one.

I think my main problem with you Rhagz, and many others on this website, is that you speak in absolutes when really you can only offer opinions due to the subjective nature of games. You say the game sucks and is horrible, therefore it must be that way for everyone. And if it's not, something is wrong with them. I say i really like the game, but i completely understand that other folks, for very valid reasons, do not like it. And that's fine. I just don't get that "absolute" mentality of the haters - it's like they feel threatened that people actually like something they don't. I'll never get that.

Oh, you also tend to speak in hyperbole to try to bolster your points. I don't like that either.

[rhagz]

I don't care what you like. I am not here to please you. And of course everything I say is opinion unless stated to be fact and backed up by data when possible. Sucks is a subjective term and can only be an opinion. Horrible is the same thing.

Of course I know some people (10k?) enjoy Vanguard.. and you know what, fine. I can't make people stop enjoying it and I don't want to. Some people like some strange things that are not fit to be typed here, but that doesn't make them good things.

[Jordan Jax]

Of course I know some people (10k?) enjoy Vanguard.. and you know what, fine. I can't make people stop enjoying it and I don't want to. Some people like some strange things that are not fit to be typed here, but that doesn't make them good things.

classic.

Thank you for that shining example of everything i've been talking about regarding the haters in one neat, tidy little sentence. I couldn't have done better if i tried.

[rhagz]

Apparently you couldn't count better if you tried either. You quoted 3 sentences.

[VoiceOfReason]

...

I think my main problem with you Rhagz, and many others on this website, is that you speak in absolutes when really you can only offer opinions due to the subjective nature of games. You say the game sucks and is horrible, therefore it must be that way for everyone. And if it's not, something is wrong with them. I say i really like the game, but i completely understand that other folks, for very valid reasons, do not like it. And that's fine. I just don't get that "absolute" mentality of the haters - it's like they feel threatened that people actually like something they don't. I'll never get that.

...


This comes very close to being exactly the thing that I have been trying to articulate - closer than I have come so far I think. In reality, it is almost as if these people are tying to rely on intimidation as one of the main weapons in an an arsenal that is not sufficient to make their main point. A main point which goes something like this: "VG sucks and if you play it YOU suck."

For the record, I do not mean to imply that all posts containing a negative evaluation of VG or some aspect of it are attempts at intimidation. No, it is only a select few that use this tactic.

[Jordan Jax]

I don't care what you like. I am not here to please you. And of course everything I say is opinion unless stated to be fact and backed up by data when possible. Sucks is a subjective term and can only be an opinion. Horrible is the same thing.

Of course I know some people (10k?) enjoy Vanguard.. and you know what, fine. I can't make people stop enjoying it and I don't want to. Some people like some strange things that are not fit to be typed here, but that doesn't make them good things.

Apparently you couldn't count better if you tried either. You quoted 3 sentences.

ouch man, you got me there. you win the internets!

[rhagz]

You can have this one, I got so many that I have nowhere else to put them.

[VoiceOfReason]

You can have this one, I got so many that I have nowhere else to put them.

Put them in your dreams, that would seem the appropriate place.

[rhagz]

Bandwagon much? See here we were having a nice rational chat and then someone comes along with the usual 'blah blah you haters blah blah' and you change tunes so quickly. Voice of reason indeed.

[Jordan Jax]

Bandwagon much? See here we were having a nice rational chat and then someone comes along with the usual 'blah blah you haters blah blah' and you change tunes so quickly. Voice of reason indeed.

Talk rationally and i'll be more than happy to respond rationally.

Seriously, I'd love to have a rational debate on this game with you. Based on what i've seen though i don't believe you're capable of a rational debate on VG at this point.

[rhagz]

I actually wasn't speaking to you so none of that was in context.. but it's nice that you claim to want to be rational then proceed to spew your typical ad hominem insults. Hypocrisy knows no bounds. No matter though, because you are more fun to poke with a stick and watch the agitated reaction then actually try to speak with.

[Joodah]

If you don't think they know what a disaster Vanguard was and if you don't think they have people that read forums (maybe not this one) then I'm sorry but its you that's naive. I have worked for 2 game companies and they tell testers to read game forums and write basic reports on what they find. Part of making a good product is knowing your competition.



DUH, the industry knows what happened with VG. Anyone in the industry that doesn't is living in a cave. Ok, now that we've established that, let's review what we were talking about: Rhagz suggested the continued bashing of VG, on Silky Venom, is some sort of important holy cause because we want other games to not make the same mistakes. Again - We already know the industry isn't stupid and already knows what happened. The suggestion was that these same clued-in folks are lurking around in the Silky Venom discussion forum awaiting further words of wisdom on how much the game sucked from Rhagz and the like. Laughable and self important, to put it mildly. And as someone who was in game testing on and off for 8 years, I gaurantee you that no testers are sitting around reading forums for other games so they can run back to their leads with news of other games shortcomings, please lol. :D

Additionally, while the rest of video game fandom and creative development has moved past this subject, some of the folks on this forum (as well as the infamous mmorpg.org, the all time champs of dead horse beating - they are still whining about the NGE over there like it happened yesterday, lol) feel it's their job to "spread the news" - from 6-8 months ago. /golfclap

[Cobalty2004]

Additionally, while the rest of video game fandom and creative development has moved past this subject, some of the folks on this forum (as well as the infamous mmorpg.org, the all time champs of dead horse beating - they are still whining about the NGE over there like it happened yesterday, lol) feel it's their job to "spread the news" - from 6-8 months ago. /golfclap

When something becomes a ... stigma.. there is no "beating a dead horse"

This is a forum about Vanguard, why must you insist everything be positive?

[rhagz]

Additionally, while the rest of video game fandom and creative development has moved past this subject, some of the folks on this forum (as well as the infamous mmorpg.org, the all time champs of dead horse beating - they are still whining about the NGE over there like it happened yesterday, lol) feel it's their job to "spread the news" - from 6-8 months ago. /golfclap

So the proper response is to sweep it all under the rug and not speak ill of Vanguard? Only talk about good things or how much you love the game because saying anything negative is 'beating a dead horse'?

If it's a choice between that and my supposed 'holy crusade' then it's a no-brainer. Only one has a chance of affecting the genre positively and it isn't via spin and willful ignorance.

[Enscheff]

I know why I visit VG forums...because I like the game and like to read about it.

I have no idea why folks that don't like the game bother visiting VG websites. Are their lives that dull? What possible enjoyment do they get from being negative? I certainly would not waste my time visiting websites dealing with topics I didn't enjoy.

If folks are that bored, go get a job. If you are too rich to need a job, go volunteer. Go be a big brother to a troubled teen. Anything that is not negative, please.

If you are a person that somehow takes joy in coming to a website JUST to spread negative comments, you, as a human being, fall somewhere between the racing stripes in your father's tighty whities and the dried up crust around the rim of your Vaseline jar.

I guess I feel sorry for those folks...Maybe they just weren't hugged enough as a child.

[Joodah]

When something becomes a ... stigma.. there is no "beating a dead horse"

This is a forum about Vanguard, why must you insist everything be positive?

lol I see so you see the continued "discussion" about why the NGE happened and the fact that it did and that soe should return to pre-CU as worthy of talking about for 2 years? Your entitled to your sense of priority I guess :rolleyes: btw, stigmas "stick" without having to spend 2 years going over the same stuff over and over, hence the meaning of the word "stigma". Anyhoo.

I have never ever insisted that every thing is always positive. Again, the issue is what Voice and others were referring to - knocking players who do enjoy the game as being "stupid" for doing so, demeaning people who come here to suggest that the game is fun for them with little snotty comments intended to demean and belittle the posters. There is "dissent" in the main official forums, but the people who post there don't suggest that the folks enjoying the game are idiots or clueless for holding their positive opinions.

Complaining there are bugs, that the game isn't all it should be - no problem. Belittling others, mocking folks who do enjoy it, making snide comments when people do post positive stuff - that's where the problem is. Criticism is always a good thing.

[Joodah]

So the proper response is to sweep it all under the rug and not speak ill of Vanguard? Only talk about good things or how much you love the game because saying anything negative is 'beating a dead horse'?

If it's a choice between that and my supposed 'holy crusade' then it's a no-brainer. Only one has a chance of affecting the genre positively and it isn't via spin and willful ignorance.

The issue, again, isn't "sweeping" things "under the rug". The issue is the smug, holier-than-thou attitude many of the bashers here have towards anyone daring to utter any words of praise or positivity.

Saying negative things isn't beating a dead horse. But spending 8 months (on VG) or 2+ years (on NGE) going on and on about it like it happened yesterday is obsessive and rediculously vengeful.

[Cobalty2004]

lol I see so you see the continued "discussion" about why the NGE happened and the fact that it did and that soe should return to pre-CU as worthy of talking about for 2 years? Your entitled to your sense of priority I guess :rolleyes: btw, stigmas "stick" without having to spend 2 years going over the same stuff over and over, hence the meaning of the word "stigma". Anyhoo.

Complaining there are bugs, that the game isn't all it should be - no problem. Belittling others, mocking folks who do enjoy it, making snide comments when people do post positive stuff - that's where the problem is. Criticism is always a good thing.

I wasn't referring to the NGE of SWG. I was referring that Vanguard is an example of what NOT to do.

And I don't flame those who like the game, only those who flame those who don't like the game....

[Jordan Jax]

I actually wasn't speaking to you so none of that was in context.. but it's nice that you claim to want to be rational then proceed to spew your typical ad hominem insults. Hypocrisy knows no bounds. No matter though, because you are more fun to poke with a stick and watch the agitated reaction then actually try to speak with.

Ya, you are really getting to me Rhagz. I'm beside myself with agitation.

Anytime you want to debate any of the actual points i've brought up in this thread instead of ignoring them completely and correcting my math mistakes feel free. You don't even want to try though because you know i'm right.

I do agree with you on one point though, this is fun. :D

(did anyone else lol at the irony of Rhagz using "ad hominem" and "hypocrisy" in a post and it wasn't directed at himself?)

[rhagz]

Anytime you want to debate any of the actual points i've brought up in this thread instead of ignoring them completely and correcting my math mistakes feel free. You don't even want to try though because you know i'm right.


I've seen you make zero relevant points. The only things you have done is speculated on my personal situation which is both irrelevant and inaccurate.

Make a point worth addressing then perhaps I will. You won't though because 'you know I'm right'. See how easy that is?

[Jordan Jax]

I've seen you make zero relevant points. The only things you have done is speculated on my personal situation which is both irrelevant and inaccurate.

Make a point worth addressing then perhaps I will. You won't though because 'you know I'm right'. See how easy that is?


"Isn't it the consumers choice whether to be smart and wait a week for a few reviews to come out before dropping the money on the box, especially considering the track record of mmorpgs? Isn't it the individual consumers choice whether to continue to pay the monthly sub or not for what you call an unfinished game?"

Looks like we both struggle with math.

[rhagz]

No only you do because I actually responded to that...

Which is rather fortunate for you because normally I wouldn't pursue a discussion with someone who opens up with calling me a liar.

[Jordan Jax]

I've seen you make zero relevant points. The only things you have done is speculated on my personal situation which is both irrelevant and inaccurate.

Make a point worth addressing then perhaps I will. You won't though because 'you know I'm right'. See how easy that is?

No only you do because I actually responded to that...

Which is rather fortunate for you because normally I wouldn't pursue a discussion with someone who opens up with calling me a liar.

You said, and i quote, "I've seen you make zero relevant points."

I then countered with a relevant point that i made. Hence my statement that you struggle with math, and showing that, in fact, you were not "right". see?

blahh..this isn't even worth it anymore. Carry on with...whatever it is you think you are doing here if it makes you feel any better. Maybe someday VG will fail, the plug will be pulled on the last server, Brad will be tarred and feathered and all the devs you feel are responsible for the game are fired, never to work on another game ever again, and your life will be complete.

carry on

[Choctaw]

I wasn't referring to the NGE of SWG. I was referring that Vanguard is an example of what NOT to do.

And I don't flame those who like the game, only those who flame those who don't like the game....

On an odd little side note, I am currently in a closed beta for another upcoming MMO.

I have actuallyf seen folks make posts that look like this:

"Man, I hope they push the game back. I'd hate to see them Vanguard it." I'm not sure what's worse; that they actually used that phrase like that or that not one person on the beta boards questioned what it meant.

Whether you're still enjoying this game or not is entirely a matter or personal choice. However, there is no argueing that Vanguard *has* become the example of what not to do when releasing a game.

[Cobalty2004]

On an odd little side note, I am currently in a closed beta for another upcoming MMO.

I have actuallyf seen folks make posts that look like this:

"Man, I hope they push the game back. I'd hate to see them Vanguard it." I'm not sure what's worse; that they actually used that phrase like that or that not one person on the beta boards questioned what it meant.

Whether you're still enjoying this game or not is entirely a matter or personal choice. However, there is no argueing that Vanguard *has* become the example of what not to do when releasing a game.

If you are in AoC beta I will give you $1k for the key :D

[AsheMan]

"Man, I hope they push the game back. I'd hate to see them Vanguard it." I'm not sure what's worse; that they actually used that phrase like that or that not one person on the beta boards questioned what it meant.

Whether you're still enjoying this game or not is entirely a matter or personal choice. However, there is no argueing that Vanguard *has* become the example of what not to do when releasing a game.

You are absolutely correct. The train-wreck of high budget MMOs.

[Atoyota]

You are absolutely correct. The train-wreck of high budget MMOs.

and who would be your guess was the engineer? was it "Casey Jones" ? :eek:

[AsheMan]

and who would be your guess was the engineer? was it "Casey Jones" ? :eek:

Well probably like the actual Vanguard engineer, Casey Jones was high on cocaine! (as per the Grateful Dead Song)

[Atoyota]

Well probably like the actual Vanguard engineer, Casey Jones was high on cocaine! (as per the Grateful Dead Song)

either that or just a seriously swelled head that hampered any good sense in game design.

[wolfen66]

And like i said, Dark and Light was so much worse than VG out of the box you honestly can't even compare the two. And that is saying a lot because i fully admit VG was released in a beta stage (but i still liked it and paid for it and continue to pay for it). D&L was more like pre-alpha.

I bought VG on day one. I played it. I liked it. I continue to like it (despite them trying to make it too easy). I continue to pay for it. Others like it as well. They continue to pay for it. We don't see this as a mediocre game at all. It's a good game with the potential to become a great one.

I think my main problem with you Rhagz, and many others on this website, is that you speak in absolutes when really you can only offer opinions due to the subjective nature of games. You say the game sucks and is horrible, therefore it must be that way for everyone. And if it's not, something is wrong with them. I say i really like the game, but i completely understand that other folks, for very valid reasons, do not like it. And that's fine. I just don't get that "absolute" mentality of the haters - it's like they feel threatened that people actually like something they don't. I'll never get that.

Oh, you also tend to speak in hyperbole to try to bolster your points. I don't like that either.


Well said.

[VoiceOfReason]

You are absolutely correct. The train-wreck of high budget MMOs.

Nobody, repeat NOBODY is debating this. The game should not have been released when it was. This point is made. Done. It's a dead topic.

[VoiceOfReason]

Bandwagon much? See here we were having a nice rational chat and then someone comes along with the usual 'blah blah you haters blah blah' and you change tunes so quickly. Voice of reason indeed.

I doubt that I "bandwagon" any more than you do.

The rest of your post in incoherent, so I'll not comment.

[shadowrelm]

i can only assume none of you were there for the launch of AO, or EQ1, or AC2 for that matter.

Vanguard was in much better shape than any of those at launch. they made 2 mistakes, and only 2.

1. there was no top end game for the powergamers who were going to blast past the rest of the game in 30 to 60 days. so they started biotching and are still biotching.

2. they bet the farm on grouping when almost no one groups in any game, including EQ1, the mother of all grouping games.

other than that, the game is no better or no worse than anything out right now. the graphics are outstanding. its fairly stable if you have a good machine and atleast DSL. there is leveling. there are quests. there are trade skills. there are cool classes with coool abilities. all of which are no better or no worse than any other game out right now.

dont take my word for it though, just check out the allakhazams everquest web site and look at all the biotching about the last patch they screwed up after 8 years of practicing.

they only made 2 mistakes. i remember the people bashing the hell out of WoW a couple months after launch because there was little to no top end game and the powergamers blasted past what was given at launch and started screaming for more. same tripe you see here.

1. if you dont want powergamers to cry, better develop the top end game FIRST. they are the predominant voice on web sites, so they will dominate the discussions on any game for better or worse on every web site.

2. no one is grouping. EQ1 has been fighting soloing for 8 years because most of theri players dont group either. GROUPING IS DEAD. if it was ever alive. casual players do not have time for grouping and casual gamers make up OVER 90 percent of all gamers.

WoW didnt have a top end game either at launch, but......they did have what 90 percent of the players want. time friendly game play. that gave them enough time to develop a top end game.

[Cobalty2004]

Nobody, repeat NOBODY is debating this. The game should not have been released when it was. This point is made. Done. It's a dead topic.

The game is a damn stigma, there is no dead topic.

Our great grandkids will be talking about this game.

[VoiceOfReason]

The game is a damn stigma, there is no dead topic.

Our great grandkids will be talking about this game.

/boggle

[Joodah]

/boggle

lol yeh was thinking the same thing :D I

Can see Granpa Cobalty with grandson on his knee: "Now have I ever told you kids about the Debacle of Vanguard-" Kid: "Ohhhgod granpa, not that story again... " :D

[Cobalty2004]

lol yeh was thinking the same thing :D I

Can see Granpa Cobalty with grandson on his knee: "Now have I ever told you kids about the Debacle of Vanguard-" Kid: "Ohhhgod granpa, not that story again... " :D

lol

[Joodah]

hehe :)

[Kayd]

I hate to go totally off topic on page 18 of a thread, but how are the server populations after the merge. Oh wait. That is the topic...

[Cobalty2004]

I hate to go totally off topic on page 18 of a thread, but how are the server populations after the merge. Oh wait. That is the topic...

Quit de-railing threads plz...

[darkaine]

Quit de-railing threads plz...

lol....seriously though, my short time back to the game i've been suprised at how active my server (xeth) seems. The chat is fairly active...and constructive, unlike in beta and launch :eek:. I've seen quite a few ppl around my lvl and haven't had problems getting groups.

[Kueren Goldenblade]

Okay, I really can't be bothered to sift through 17 pages of mostly off-topic stuff, but can anyone tell me what the servers are like now? Obviously they were packed right after merge, because a lot of people (like me) went off to do other things until the servers merged.

What I want to know is if the pop. is leveling off, or are there still tons of people around now? I hope the population stays somewhere around how everyone described it on the first few days, would definitely re-sub if thats the case.

[Mreynolds]

Okay, I really can't be bothered to sift through 17 pages of mostly off-topic stuff, but can anyone tell me what the servers are like now? Obviously they were packed right after merge, because a lot of people (like me) went off to do other things until the servers merged.

What I want to know is if the pop. is leveling off, or are there still tons of people around now? I hope the population stays somewhere around how everyone described it on the first few days, would definitely re-sub if thats the case.

From what I can tell it has leveled off quite a bit. Both pve servers still read high at primetime though. Most of the pop seems to be 20+ But do see new players from time to time. It is easier to find groups though and chat is alive (not always a good thing) But the spike seems to definitely be over if thats what you are wondering. But the pop does seem stable for all intents.

[Cobalty2004]

From what I can tell it has leveled off quite a bit. Both pve servers still read high at primetime though. Most of the pop seems to be 20+ But do see new players from time to time. It is easier to find groups though and chat is alive (not always a good thing) But the spike seems to definitely be over if thats what you are wondering. But the pop does seem stable for all intents.

Lol for the first 3 weeks after launch every damn channel was like barrens chat....

[Kueren Goldenblade]

From what I can tell it has leveled off quite a bit. Both pve servers still read high at primetime though. Most of the pop seems to be 20+ But do see new players from time to time. It is easier to find groups though and chat is alive (not always a good thing) But the spike seems to definitely be over if thats what you are wondering. But the pop does seem stable for all intents.

Thank you. =)

My main is 35 or 36 I think, I can't remember. I only stopped playing really because I couldn't get a group to save my life. =p

[VoiceOfReason]

From what I can tell it has leveled off quite a bit. Both pve servers still read high at primetime though. Most of the pop seems to be 20+ But do see new players from time to time. It is easier to find groups though and chat is alive (not always a good thing) But the spike seems to definitely be over if thats what you are wondering. But the pop does seem stable for all intents.

I still notice what are likely 2 to 3 new players in chat just about every playing session.

[Choctaw]

I still notice what are likely 2 to 3 new players in chat just about every playing session.


It's the same 2 to 3 people each time. They're just slow to catch on. ;)


JK

[Mreynolds]

I still notice what are likely 2 to 3 new players in chat just about every playing session.

Yeah not saying there is zero new players but not a healthy abundance is prolly a better word. Hopefully the trial island hits soon or at least before the holidays. I think we have a lil more time. Dont think AoC is gonna hit before spring if what I hear out of beta is correct but then others may say its good to go. But just as soon not compete for those on the fence if dont have to if that makes sense.