Migrating settlements?

[Oakenfall]

If I read correcttly, and correct me if I am wrong, will settlements migrate?

Ok we got a slow offline type travel through the caravan. Also standard travel with your belongings by ship, and pack animal, and possibly Dwarves ;) If you combine the two, add a few thousand peeps. I could invision settlements moving up coastlines. or a trade rounte forming out of the wilderness. It seems to me that a very natural organic pattern of settlements could migrate from side of the continent to the other. But very slowly. Am I way off here?

[Razorwire]

Perhaps a bit large in the numbers but basicly yes I think that is the idea.

[Feyshtey]

I kind of got the impression that settlements wouldn't so much migrate. But rather that they'd ... transfer ownership.

So something like :
UberguildA builds a town at spot X. After a month or so they've leveled up, geared up, and completed the bulk of the quests in the area. So they relinquish their ownership of the structures and move to their new area of concentration to build anew. Semi-UberguildB (which is slightly behind UberguildA) moves in and takes up residence at the abandoned spot X. What we haven't really heard about (that I know of) is whether or not a structure remains for a time after it's owner has relinquished it. Can someone else just move in and take over the upkeep costs? Or will the structure disappear when there is no owner, and the new resident must construct a new building in it's place?

I would imagine we'll see towns uprooted and rebuilt elsewhere. I could also see a possibility that a town could be abandoned and occupation of it taken up by others (although I don't know if that's allowed by the mechanics). But I don't think we'll be allowed to gradually move our home across a landscape. Not without paying through the nose to abandon it and pay to have it rebuilt regularly. Which I'm guessing wouldn't be very prudent financially.

[buzzard]

Of course not knowing the mechanics like you said Feyshtey it is hard to say.

But I got the impression that any buildings/structures that were left abandoned would be destroyed by the local wildlife/mobs. At some-point somewhere it was said that mobs would attack and destroy them (forgive me for not looking it up :) ). And I have always coupled that with the also said abilities to hire NPC's. I think that it was mainly talking about PC owned Merchant NPC's, but it made me think of hiring guards for your house/town to protect it from the mobs.

I might very easily be offbase but if you abandoned a town, the guards would be gone, and then the local gnolls would come and burn it down.

[Feyshtey]

I think that is true Buz. At one point Brad did say that if you built in a hostile area, hostile creatures could (and likely would) attack and destroy your house. Unless of course you provided protection against such attacks.

But that sounds like a different consideration. What is proposed by the OP is if settlements will slowly move across the landscape. At least that's what I got out of it. And I don't think it's something we're likely to see.

[buzzard]

I think that is true Buz. At one point Brad did say that if you built in a hostile area, hostile creatures could (and likely would) attack and destroy your house. Unless of course you provided protection against such attacks.

But that sounds like a different consideration. What is proposed by the OP is if settlements will slowly move across the landscape. At least that's what I got out of it. And I don't think it's something we're likely to see.

Aye, your post sent my geeky train of thought on a tangent. :D

As far as Oakenfall's thoughts, I hope so. I think it could be possible say a guild town decides to move to a new location but half the guild is crafters/diplos. So they have a "move day" so that the adventures could protect the caravan. Guess it would be dependant on how much stuff you can carry. Maybe everything in a house could be "fit" in a horse and cart and hauled, and if travel truely is dangerous.

Course, when a game goes live alot of times visions like this go bye-bye. But I do hope so.

[Atoyota]

If I read correcttly, and correct me if I am wrong, will settlements migrate?

Ok we got a slow offline type travel through the caravan. Also standard travel with your belongings by ship, and pack animal, and possibly Dwarves ;) If you combine the two, add a few thousand peeps. I could invision settlements moving up coastlines. or a trade rounte forming out of the wilderness. It seems to me that a very natural organic pattern of settlements could migrate from side of the continent to the other. But very slowly. Am I way off here?

I've posted my theories on this over in Vanguard forums, but let me give it a shot here. (see what you think).

Unless structures can be made "semi permanent" say tents in a true sence of nomadic tribal groups, I doubt it.
It makes sence, if you farm out an area then move to adjacent areas. (in fact this would be great for a PK group provided the land area was large enough to hide in).

I picture player towns to spring up quickly in areas where rescource is plentiful with good respawn.

Some towns may grow from trade routes with modest rescources.
Making income in two ways. 1.providing cover for caravans as a stopover. 2.as an outlaying crafting center and sales area.

At anyrate structures require upkeep and defence (npc hirlings).
How much defence depends on both how much you can afford and the expected risk.

Towns will either grow or die on income and expence.
They will be meaningful IOW.
This is the system that makes the most sence to me.
How they balance it will be a key consideration.

It could seem that a town migrates, but effectively it moves to meet it's finacial demands. (probably to a spot that made more sence to begin with).

Anyways that's just my opinion on towns (in general).

[Skarlath]

I just thought i'd throw in here that housing is intended to be zoned. We don't know exactly what this will entail, but it's likely to fall somewhere between only allowing construction on individual single building 'plots' to a whole area being marked as a construction zone and crafters being able to build anywhere on it, and construct multiple buildings.

The way this plays into things is of course that location and relocation will therefore be restricted to some (perhaps small) degree.

[Atoyota]

I just thought i'd throw in here that housing is intended to be zoned. We don't know exactly what this will entail, but it's likely to fall somewhere between only allowing construction on individual single building 'plots' to a whole area being marked as a construction zone and crafters being able to build anywhere on it, and construct multiple buildings.

The way this plays into things is of course that location and relocation will therefore be restricted to some (perhaps small) degree.

Ya good point... I knew but failed to place that in my theory on towns etcetra..

[Oakenfall]

I have another notion spawn by all this talk. Life along a specific caravan route.

Assuming slow offline travel by caravan is true. Also, assume that there will be a binding location, let's say in these prezoned areas. Maybe a town, or even a consistantly populated campsite that is geographically desirable along the caravan route. Finally, assume that significant (gain a few levels) progression will can take a week to a month, depending.

Would I be wrong to assume that these towns and campsites would stay the same (all the settlers to be a certain level appropriate for the surrounding area.) Players would migrate along the caravan routes in an dynamic fashion, depending on what there goal was, a quest, a dungeon or marketplace.

Now if you wanted to travel up north along the caravan, and it would take you 4 hours to make the run, would it be reasonable to travel half that time offline on the caravan route in 8 hours? So, 8 hours later you logon and still must travel another 2 hours to reach the town of Roxberg and deliver your 10 orcheads to to some geeky little gnome.

It seems like people would migrate, but the towns, campsites would stay somewhat constant. All the while, makeing for a dynamic lively enviorment. Does that sound about right?

[Atoyota]

Caravans continuing while offline?
Well certainly NPC caravans will be automated. Player Caravans would need a driver, unless they too were automated by a waypoint function.
Either way I'd worry about logging while "enroute", as unforeseeable "things" could happen. Even onboard ship.

As for level oriented training areas with permanent towns and campsites, sure... I'd expect that in some fashion.
You could caravan to these spots on an NPC caravan or by horse.
Most likely safe as you'd be at or near your level/training range. (you could hire on as escort or passenger or both)

Farther out there would be not much to protect you, and caravans would need some. To move out into these areas solo or with a small group, you could again hire onto the caravan.
I just think in these zones/areas the risk of caravan failure will be much greater. (logging out riskier)
Just a logical guess.
It'd be a good way to gain safe passage for a small group or solo player, but I'd want to "hop off" the caravan in an area where I could log out safely.

This also adds another thought.
Later in game, when players know the routes and associated risks, they could create their own caravans run entirely by NPC Hirlings. (with enough of a guard and correct deployment to insure success). Using a waypoint system for the "Caravan Driver". Like Casey Jones...
Driven that train, High on Cocaine,
Casey Jones you better, Watch your speed,
Trouble ahead, trouble behind.
Never had that notion, cross my mind. :)
(sorry bout the lyrics, just popped in my head there.)

But I guess (in short), towns/cravans/NPC hirling guards.
They'd all be driven by the same logical formula.
expence/risk/reward.
Player expence is determined both by expected risk and reward.
Makes Caravans "meaningful" as well as Towns.



I have another notion spawn by all this talk. Life along a specific caravan route.

Assuming slow offline travel by caravan is true. Also, assume that there will be a binding location, let's say in these prezoned areas. Maybe a town, or even a consistantly populated campsite that is geographically desirable along the caravan route. Finally, assume that significant (gain a few levels) progression will can take a week to a month, depending.

Would I be wrong to assume that these towns and campsites would stay the same (all the settlers to be a certain level appropriate for the surrounding area.) Players would migrate along the caravan routes in an dynamic fashion, depending on what there goal was, a quest, a dungeon or marketplace.

Now if you wanted to travel up north along the caravan, and it would take you 4 hours to make the run, would it be reasonable to travel half that time offline on the caravan route in 8 hours? So, 8 hours later you logon and still must travel another 2 hours to reach the town of Roxberg and deliver your 10 orcheads to to some geeky little gnome.

It seems like people would migrate, but the towns, campsites would stay somewhat constant. All the while, makeing for a dynamic lively enviorment. Does that sound to about right?

[Feyshtey]

I didn't get the impression that player caravans work quite the way yuo described it Oak.

As I understand it, a group of players can choose to form a caravan. If you log off on day 1, and the majority of (or leader of?) the caravan travels to a new location on day 2 when you haven't played, when you log in on day 3 you will find yourself at the new location.

I kind of doubt that there is going to be any kind of in game indicator of that caravan's travel. But rather your bind location and log-in point will have shifted to the spot closest to where your caravan last was. And I also suspect that the login points/ bind points will be limited to towns or cities.

[Atoyota]

I didn't get the impression that player caravans work quite the way yuo described it Oak.

As I understand it, a group of players can choose to form a caravan. If you log off on day 1, and the majority of (or leader of?) the caravan travels to a new location on day 2 when you haven't played, when you log in on day 3 you will find yourself at the new location.

I kind of doubt that there is going to be any kind of in game indicator of that caravan's travel. But rather your bind location and log-in point will have shifted to the spot closest to where your caravan last was. And I also suspect that the login points/ bind points will be limited to towns or cities.

Makes sence, but an NPC controled "player owned" caravan would be cool.

A way to automate import and export rather than "hands on" every shipment.
As for binds on login points, were the caravan "mauled" you'd wake up at the point of destruction. (meaning better log out in or set your destination to the next town).
They could make your locater or bind sort of an invisible parcel once the caravan "changed hands" or was destroyed.
Nah.. that won't work. If you log out you log at that location.
Meaning plan your time or make sure you don't lose con :)

[Oakenfall]

I all sounds cool to me, all I can do at this time is speculate, unless I can manage to get into one of the betas. Or It also would
be nice to be surprized at launch too. ;)
My son and I just finish building his new machine, it's awsome, plays F.E.A.R. on the maximum settings. we are ready for beta.

[Atoyota]

I all sounds cool to me, all I can do at this time is speculate, unless I can manage to get into one of the betas. Or It also would
be nice to be surprized at launch too. ;)
My son and I just finish building his new machine, it's awsome, plays F.E.A.R. on the maximum settings. we are ready for beta.
Same here :)
I've built a few machines. (386,486,pentium1) but from then on just started buying Dells every couple (few) years.
One I have now can play the game fine... prolly upgrade in a yaer though for the public game.
I'm not in beta btw... just took a look in programing forum over at the vanguard site for specs
No kids on my end (here) just me. (the big kid).

[akherat]

If I recall the way it was described, housing will be zoned in order to maintain some semblance of order, but there will be places where players/guilds can build structures, hire guards, etc. I didn't see anything about what happens when you leave, but I really like the idea of releasing them - unintelligent mobs would destroy them, and semi-intelligent or intelligent mobs would move in. That way if uber-guild abandons their town and no other guild is in the area to take it over immediately, it starts to decay, some buildings get reduced to rubble, and some buildings get inhabited by mobs, so that when the next group moves in, they have to clear the mobs, repair the buildings and rebuild a few structures to make it a decent habitable place.

I also like the idea of zones being available to be set as 'permanent residences' - areas along trade routes that see all manner and level of traffic, crossroads and the like being places where player cities can be established with permanent defenses, civics, and establishment of a faction/factions and creation/abolishment of alliances with neighboring towns/cities, both PC and NPC. Once a civic center is in place, perhaps NPC merchants would travel to/from a Player area at the behest of PC diplomats creating trade agreements with NPC's that have to be maintained as sort of ongoing quests, where they could hire PC's to provide guards or messengers to carry or protect quest related items, etc., and quest rewards result in more NPC's moving to a player controlled area, and the diplomat then being able to zone areas of their factional base as buildable by NPCs...so NPC's might come and set up a store or whatever, selling items that roughly equate to the level of the owning diplomat(s), and as a factional area reaches its maximum sprawl, the quests become more difficult and relate more to maintaining things and keeping order, balancing taxes with needs, growing structures, zoning issues and so on. If NPC's become dissatisfied and start leaving, structures start falling apart, mobs might start showing up more frequently and in greater/tougher numbers, requiring more adventurers to come in and clear them out while the diplomats work to establish agreements to restore the area, attempt to sign trade agreements with faraway places to bring in more exotic goods, and so on.

I really hope to see diplomacy and diplomats take the forefront in building a player driven economy, where the PC diplomats travel with adventurers to establish trade routes, grow their towns, undertake quests to dangerous areas to get crafting recipes that allow for fantastic structures, perhaps make agreements with intelligent mobs to provide access to a rare stone quarry in some remote area that allows for magical buildings, perhaps garner some special anvil for a town blacksmith that allows for the creation of magical items, or increases the odds of success in some difficult combines that encourages adventurers to come to their town, and so on.

Lots and lots of potential with the spheres and player driven zones.