Money-Sinks and Gold Sellers

[buzzard]

Ok I posted in a thread on the main boards about this but it was drowned out by Gold Buying/Selling = Bad end of discussion.

I'll start off by saying I hate the black market gold selling in games, I am not in favor of it, and I hope Sigil does their best to foil it. But it is here and its not going away and I believe that this must be recognized by game developers as they craft their games.

My main problem is with money-sinks, specifically money-barriers that hinder character development, progression, or block content. I do understand the perceived need for them (though I'm not totally sold), and I have no problem with minimum usage of them. Rent/maintenance on houses comes to mind as very acceptable as long as its reasonable.
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Ill start out with the example of mounts since they have been used in several games as large high-end money-sinks. So lets say there is one mount that is far superior than other mounts but costs a very large sum of money. Its faster, gives the character bonuses, and just generally makes the character better. Which of course makes it highly desirable to all players and almost a necessity in the "Must keep up with the Jones's" attitude that develops in many MMORPGs.

Now the developers may intend for players to save up for this mount through normal play and expect only high level characters to be able to save enough money to acquire it. But lets be honest thats not what happens. Players will want it as soon as possible so generally what happens is:

1. Players will Farm for the money to buy the mount (instead of saving over a period of time).

or

2. Players will turn to the secondary market Gold Sellers to acquire the money and mount. (I'm not talking about you specifically ;) , but a notable percentage of players)

When #2 happens not only has a market been created for the Gold Sellers (which is bad) but you also end up with overpowered lower-level characters (also bad).

To think of it another way, just imagine if the mount was only quest-able.....

Mighty-Mount Questgiver: "Go forth and kill 2000 green conned mobs and then return to me for you shall be rewarded!"

Gah, that would be the lamest quest ever, but in essence that is exactly what it boils down to for most players. Is it any wonder that lot of players turn to the secondary market?
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My second example is a harsh Money-sink.

I played a MMORPG where there were armor repair costs. Unfortunately I played a tank and my repair costs always exceeded the money I acquired. I was always flat broke and I hated to ask others for money so I could repair, made me feel like a beggar even though I was forced to often. So I farmed and I hate to farm. I was having to farm 1 hour for every "real" hour I played.

I ended up quitting after 3 months even though I really enjoyed when I "played" the game.

Now I didn't buy an gold, but again this sort of Money-sink only creates a market for the Gold Sellers. Its a motivator.
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I know that many of you will think that players that use the secondary Gold Market are just cheaters and will buy gold no matter if there are no Money-sinks and Money-barriers in the game, and you would be right. But I believe that Money-barriers only increase the market and that the game makers use of them only enlarges the problem, and the developers need consider them.

In conclusion, the game mechanics can produce a market for Gold Sellers and game developers should take note of it. In the battle against the prevalent out-of-game Gold Market it only makes sense.

(Sorry for the overly long post, heh)

[Severoth]

I completely agree with everything you've said, buzzard.

I fear with an in-demand (useful) crafting sphere where crafters want money for their goods, in-game currency will be in high demand in Vanguard as well. Fortunately, they are trying to take out "farming" and MUDflation (the devaluation of in-game currency because there's so much of it flaoting around the playerbase) in Vanguard with Trivial Loot Code (TLC...not "Tender Love and Care ;) ). Granted, they are going to experiemnt with TLC in the beta, but they said they are heavily considering it if it works out well. This would make it impossible to kill trivial mobs to farm for cash/items.

Because they are focused on making gameplay always seem valuable (like you're always accomplishing something), I bet money will flow into everyone's pockets from grouping and raiding. Money was severely lacking rom raids in previous MMORPG's, thus the constant raider with equipment repair costs was forced to farm (the case in WoW).

I think you're very right in saying it's impossible to get rid of gold-sellers and Vanguard has said they feel the same way. But Vanguard has also said they hate gold-sellers too, and they are going to fight them. I have faith.

[Razorwire]

I think buying gold for RL cash is lame, but as long as people are willing to do it there will be a market and a way for people to make money at it. There is no financial incentive not to engauge in these activities is the problem.

[Feyshtey]

I understand where you're coming from buzz. But I think that perhaps you are under-appreciating what it is you're really getting at. Specifically that the best mount in the game has in game value. And because of that, a means to acquire it with out of game wealth is appealing for some players. The cash in the exchange for the mount is not the problem. Nor is removal of a need for that cash a solution.

If you break the entire thing down to the basics, the mount is desired. So people do what is needed to get the mount. In game terms, they acquire the wealth to buy the horse. Out of game, they purchase the wealth to buy the horse. But the root is that they want the horse and don't want to be burdened by the requirements of obtaining it. Now, you could consider a horse which you buy from NPC merchants a money sink. And it is. But it is only a differing means of obtaining a desired item. One that is not dependent on in-game cooperation and teamwork. You need not talk to anyone to get it. You just have to have the cash.

Now for mounts specifically, you could resolve this with a no-drop result of a quest series. But what of the other 50,000 items that players might want to obtain? Unless every prize is a no-drop quest result, then the secondary market wil be there (or at least try to be there). IGE will still be selling cash so that you can buy epic drops, or rare crafting components, or recipes for kickass crafted items, or those kickass crafted items themselves, all from other players. The secondary market will still be looking for oppurtunities to monopolize content which results in the better tradeable items, and to buy up all cases of low price sales of those items, so that they can keep the cash value of the item high.

In the end, while people might not be tempted to buy coin from the secondary market to purchase their mount, they are still tempted to buy coin from the secondary market to purchase any of thousands of other items that equally impact the player's ability to excel in the game. Items that are not at all money sinks, but instead legitimate pieces of the collective player economy of the game. In your example of the mount, the cash is the limiting factor of obtaining the reward. But it is a minority case overall. There are obsticles to the attainment of any rewards in the game. That's the whole point, in fact; you overcame obsticles to obtain the reward, and that's what most players find appealing about MMO's.

I'm absolutely sure it's possible for a game to be created where it would be mostly impossible for the secondary market to exist. But it would require some subset of the following:
1) No tradeable items
2) No in-game economy (see number 1).
3) No tradeskill system or crafting (see number 1).
4) No notable impact to effectiveness from any items.
5) No character advancement or growth.
I note the last one specifically, because even if all the other items are true, there's still a market for advanced characters themselves... But regardless, a game that actually included all things required to eliminate the secondary market, is not a game I'm at all interested in playing. Certainly not because I wish to participate in the secondary market. But because the gameplay possibilities in a game that prevented the secondary market will forever be severely limited in comparison to a game which does not.

I've rambled on. I appologize. But I'm not quite done...

Yes, money sinks can be annoying. But they are merely an alternate obsticle. And while it might be frustrating, it's perhaps the least restrictive of all the possible bottlenecks to advancment. Obtaining wealth is a given. You will earn wealth over time through normal play. Period. Unless you're pissing your cash away on things that you put a lower priority on, you will eventually have enough money to buy that horse. But there are limitless examples of things in MMO's which are arguably far more impacting than a horse ever will be, that you cannot ever have any certainty of obtaining; rare mobs with no-drop loot, and low drop rates on no drop items from raid mobs being the first to spring to mind.

[buzzard]

I totally agree Fey with what you are saying. By no means do I believe that the removal of the mount as a money-sink would stop the secondary Gold market. What I am saying is that the inclusion of them only increases the size of the Gold Seller market.

Just imagine if all items in the game where purchasable from NPC vendors along with being dropped. I mean everything, from drops off a common gnoll to the biggest raid Dragon in the game. The purchase prices varying on how difficult to acquire the item is deemed. The game mechanics would create the market and the temptation. It would be an IGE heaven.

Having these items drop instead of being bought reduces their supply and at the very least hinders the secondary market. Money-barriers inclusion, by no means as dramatic as my hypothetical, only gives players an easy way to cheat amd gives the Gold Sellers a larger market.

Surely there are better ways than a money-barrier.

side note: I would play on a totally No-Drop shard, but Im afraid Im in a very small minority. :p

[Feyshtey]

I totally agree Fey with what you are saying. By no means do I believe that the removal of the mount as a money-sink would stop the secondary Gold market. What I am saying is that the inclusion of them only increases the size of the Gold Seller market.

Just imagine if all items in the game where purchasable from NPC vendors along with being dropped. I mean everything, from drops off a common gnoll to the biggest raid Dragon in the game. The purchase prices varying on how difficult to acquire the item is deemed. The game mechanics would create the market and the temptation. It would be an IGE heaven.

Having these items drop instead of being bought reduces their supply and at the very least hinders the secondary market. Money-barriers inclusion, by no means as dramatic as my hypothetical, only gives players an easy way to cheat amd gives the Gold Sellers a larger market.

Surely there are better ways than a money-barrier.

side note: I would play on a totally No-Drop shard, but Im afraid Im in a very small minority. :p

Well, that's kind of what I was getting at.

Most everything in the games can be bought as it is. They're just purchased from players rather than NPC's. And unlike buying from an NPC where the price is forever stagnant (at least up to this point. Perhaps someday someone will create a game engine that has a dynamic NPC economy, but I'm not holding my breath), when purchasing items from players with in game cash, the price of the goods fluctuates a great deal. If an item is indeed valuable, then the price is high. But also to be considered is that the secondary market will take every oppurtunity to keep that price high. Including, but not limited to, trying to monopolize the source of the item, and buying up lower priced occurences of that item on the open market and reselling them for much higher prices.

I won't really go into it too deeply, but the secondary market is self-perpetuating. It increases the rate of coin entering the gameworld, which reduces the value of the coin, which increases the price of goods, which places legitimate players at a disadvantage in the player economy... which encourages them to participate in the secondary market. In the end, a static price for a specific good, only obtainable from an NPC, is largely uneffected. In fact, a legit player who does not participate in the secondary market is benefited in that particular case. Anything they should obtain during normal gameplay that they sell will fetch a higher price (because of the mudflation created by the secondary market). Which makes the attainment of that mount with a static price more easily reached.