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Severoth
12-21-2005, 04:28 PM
A lot of information about player cities/towns is still speculation as a lot of info hasn't been released. However, the developers have mentioned some ideas about their vision for the purpose of player cities. Allow me to try to reproduce what little elaboration the devs have provided on the forums and FAQ, as there seems to be a lot of aloof ideas and misinformation.

First thing to keep in mind is that traveling will be a task that is not only dangerous but takes time. If you and your guild are raiding some high-level dungeon, the nearest NPC town is going to be a LONG ways away. This will be nothing like EQ or WoW where traveling was trivialized. You could travel across continents/oceans in a matter of minutes in those games. Forget that. That's not how it works in Vanguard according to the devs.

Now, when you and your guildmates go into this far-way dungeon fighting and you fill up your inventory bags with loot and/or harvested items, it just won't be feasible to visit the nearest NPC town's vendors and/or bank to sell/save all your items. The nearest NPC town's vendors may be an hour's journey or longer away from your dungeon. Who wants to spend several hours traveling just to sell every single evening? Unless you are making a living at trading goods, I doubt you want to deal with that inconvenience.

Instead of making the 2-hour round trip to the nearest NPC city every evening to empty your bags, you will have a mount/vehicle that you can "park" near this high-level dungeon. Your mount/vehicle acts like a storage container, where you can empty your inventory bags after playing in the dungeon every evening (I'm not saying this is the only function of a mount/vehicle but rather one of their functions). Now, this is pure speculation, but maybe your mount/vehicle requires a "stable," at which to be parked. Now, there is reason to build a stable near the dungeon entrance. If you put up a house near this dungeon as well, this house serves as even more storage for all your loot and harvested items. Now your guild has reason to put up houses and a "stable" near the dungeon entrance, because no one wants to do a 2-hour round trip every evening just to sell loot and empty bags.

Since crafting is going to be an integral part of the game, there will be even further benefits to building a city and making it big. Vanguard developers have hinted at a system that keeps track of how "big" a settlement is. That might be determined by number of buildings, or number of players entering the city daily, etc. But however the city's size is calculated, it's size will determine whether it can support a "higher tech level." Once again, here goes some personal speculation, but let's assume a city that has an "anvil" has a "blacksmithing tech level of 1." Once it becomes a certain size, the city can build a "forge," giving the city a "blacksmithing tech level of 2." If the city grows further in size, it can upgrade to building a "foundry," giving the city a "blacksmithing tech level of 3." Let's say the easiest-to-craft items require tech level 1. Harder items require higher tech levels. The most-difficult-to-craft items will require a high tech level. Only the largest player and NPC cities will be able to obtain the highest crafting tech levels.

Why does this matter? Let's assume your guild has put up a "stable" and houses outside a dragon layer. Your guild plans to raid this place every night for the next couple of weeks. Having a player built city near the dungeon will make emptying/buying/selling loot much more convienent. After raiding many nights, your guild has collected many rare dragonscales that are a rare and required component for some very powerful armors that your high-level blacksmith can make. However, unless your player city has a "blacksmithing tech level of 5," your blacksmith will have to travel to the nearest city with such a high tech level. The next nearest city is a 5-hour journey away. Now there's some motivation to upgrade your city's "blacksmithing tech level."

Another thing to remember is that if your city is built in a hostile area (i.e. near a high-level dungeon entrance), roaming monsters will attack your city's structures. Unless players are currently online to fight off the monsters, or you have enough money to hire NPC guards, then the monsters will destroy your buildings (the buildings have hitpoints like characters).

Once you are done raiding this dragon layer after several weeks, you may want to move on to another high-level dungeon like the evil wizard's keep. However, the evil wizard's keep is a 6-hour journey from your current city at the dragon layer. Time to abandon your city (eventually monsters will destroy it completely if not defended), and build a caravan. Everyone in the guild joins the caravan, which allows a large amount of belongings to be transported. In addition, everyone who "joins" the caravan will move with the caravan whether they are online or offline. If you can't stay online for the entirety of the 6-hour journey, then you can join the caravan and go offline. When the caravan reaches its destination, you will arrive with it even if you are offline. However, make sure enough players are online to defend the caravan from monsters along its dangerous journey. When you arrive at the new high-level dungeon, time to begin building your city anew.

Maybe there will be a mechanism that allows ownership of structures and cities to change (I can only hope this happens). For example, if guild A is done raiding the dragon layer, and they want to move to raiding the evil wizard's keep. But guild B is currently raiding the evil wizard's keep, constantly killing the good bosses, etc. But guild B is tired of raiding the evil wizard's keep and wants to raid the dragnon layer, but guild A has the dragon layer camped. If guild A and guild B can communicate and arrange it, hopefully, they can switch ownership of cities and swap which dungeons they are camping. This way, each guild doesn't have to completely start over from scratch when moving. This is only my hope at this time.

If your guild isn't large enough to support a large city by itself, then your guild will have to cooperate with other players and guilds giving them reason and incentive to build in your city.

The large traveling times / distances help facilitate the profession of trading. Guild A has a bunch of extra dragonscales from the dragon layer (and these dragonscales can only be found in this dragon layer). Guild B has a bunch of extra magical orbs from the evil wizard's keep (which can only be found in the evil wizard's keep). Both magical orbs and dragonscales are key components in powerful crafted items. Traders can buy the extra dragonsalces from guild A and travel to the other guild B's city and sell them dragonsalces for craftable gear. The traders then buy the extra magical orbs from guild B and travel back to guild A's city and sell them magical orbs for their craftable gear.

The interior of buildings can be whatever you make them, but the exterior of buildings will be limited to match the "theme" of the area. Other structures that might be build-able could be a bank for extra community storage space, a wall for city defense, a fountain to inspire crafters and increase their chance to succeed at crafting, etc.

Because of the time to travel, a guild will want to raid with each other. Keeping a guild spread out among smaller towns would serve to create mini-guilds within the guild. Also, not only is there motivation to all work together on the same dungeon, but also to work together on building a city as large as possible to support high crafting tech levels.

I pulled this information from the dev's statements. When I speculated, I said so. Of course, as the dev's say, everything is still open to change before release.

Mack Bolan
12-22-2005, 11:05 AM
Very nice.

But i do remember the days when travelling in EQ just sucked. LOL. Walking from Nek forest to go to perma.. lol

I hate halflings.. I hated that halfing city. You could NEVER inviso all the way though there. hahahhaha

Alderith
12-23-2005, 03:58 AM
Very good job searching and bringing things together. I can only hope things do turn out like this. It'd just be awesome to "bring" a city with you as your guild moves around from dungeon to dungeon.

Atoyota
12-27-2005, 11:45 PM
Yes I've posted a lot of very similar theories (although not quite as organized). Rule of thumb being, player towns will need to be meaningful as they require upkeep to both maintain and defend them.
I doubt a town outside a Dragon Lair would be feasable or realistic, but it served the purpose as an example. Also once you've established a valuable rescource center I'd doubt you'd want to abandon it.
What will determine leadership and or ownership of a town? Exspecially true when more than one guild is involved.
You build a structure, it's yours... Others have their own structures. A collection of structures each serving a purpose as stable, blacksmith, storage or Inn, and later personal homes.
Sim City style you'l have zoning issues, where's the bank gonna be? where do we build the walls? Who decides? Do we vote? You'l also have some individual two to five player partnerships that could get involved in the town.(not guilds but just friends).

I'm not sure how a system for players to regulate zoning and town management will be implemented. I have some ideas. I think it's neccesary to keep some sort of order. Obviously players will not be able to build "anywhere" so managment of what spaces are allowed to build upon will be neccesary for optimal use of space. I don't think player politics will "cut it". I also don't think a guild should be able to come in and scoop up space for a town just for this purpose.

Like I said I have some ideas how this could work fairly for all, small groups to large guilds inclusive. They are raw now as I just started cooking them with this post.

Severoth
12-28-2005, 02:22 AM
Well, poeple should really read this part of the FAQ: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=518

In addition, for people who have played games where a lot of logistics are required (Star Wars: Galaxies and EVE-online both have intricate player built structures), everyone knows that any sort of "democracy" or "council" spirals into useless quibbling over every issue and decision until the guild can't take a unified action or the guild divides. Like I said before, all experienced players realize that at the helm of every successful "power" guild, lies a mature dictatorship. And members of such guilds accept that. I have no illusions about that.

Atoyota
12-28-2005, 07:43 AM
Well, poeple should really read this part of the FAQ: http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/faq.php?faqid=518


I have read that part of the FAQ, was aware of it prior to my post. (no where how leadership or zoning within buildable areas is adressed)I have also played Eve and am familiar with the concept of stations. (I left the game before many if any were constructed)

I think that I have an idea on how this will work that somehow adresses the complexity of issues surrounding both zoning and leadership that the server itself could manage. (I slept on it last night) It's still cooking, but it makes sence.

Skarlath
12-28-2005, 08:24 AM
all experienced players realize that at the helm of every successful "power" guild, lies a mature dictatorship.

Hehe, I agree.

In WoW I helmed a guild that started as a cosy guild with some real life friends. Because of our friendly atmosphere we quickly attracted new members, and the guild grew quite quickly. Whilst other 'non-community' guilds, the big raiding guilds, had their disputes and dispersed and reformed as separate guilds before repeating, we plodded on. However our guild almost went nose down when one of our members, a guy I knew in real life, demanded that the guild was run more democratically.

Up to that point I was taking advice from my officers, and then using it to make decisions about various guild issues. This particular problem actually came after a restructuring of leadership in which a new officer rank was formed. I promoted a number of my lower officers, but he was one of the ones who I didn't, and he got rather loud about it. He demanded I step down, and that every decision from then one was made democratically. I tried to explain that a guild cannot function if every single decision has to go through a specific procedure whereby everyone has an equal say.

He quit. Good riddance. Though I eventually stepped down and left WoW when it became boring, my guild was stilling blooming under the friendly dictatorship. It is now the top raiding guild on the server, has the most members, and still maintains that friendly feeling.


Another story is from SWG.

I was playing on an American server, with a guild I had moved to SWG with from AC2. We weren't the biggest guild, but we were very dedicated. We got ourselves a city going on dant as quickly as we could. Again, whilst many other cities grew a bit then fell apart with leadership issues, ours survived. Our leader was very dedicated, but also controlling. A very noticable effect of this was the layout of our city.

Many other cities were built by guilds who just dropped buildings anywhere they could. The location for our city was scouted out first, and all members of the guild who wanted to have buildings in the city made it clear what they wanted on the forums. A map of the land was drawn up before any building took place, and streets, residential areas, manufacturing zones and such were all laid out. The guild leader then placed every building herself, along with a team of surveyers standing by making sure it was all according to plan. We had streetnames and everything. Our city was absolutely fantastic, and no doubt one of the best on the server.

Our city was enhanced by a beautiful symbol of our teamwork: The devs ran an event where players had to find certain items from a crashed spaceship that had been thrown over the surfaces of a number of planets. Our controlling Guildleader organised our search, we covered the area we were meant to search extremely fast and we were the guild on our server to win the challenge. Our city had a beautiful X-wing standing in a nice location near the centre, and it was mostly down to our great leadership.

This was all a bit of a sidetrack, but I wanted to share. Guilds thrive when they are given guidelines and structure. Teamwork only really comes through when players are managed efficiently. For this, you must have a central dictator who can control every aspect of the guild. Guilds can survive without it, but I doubt that any loosely managed guilds will be the premier guild on their server in Vanguard.