Question for Fozz and everyone else too.

[mmorpeegee]

Sorry to open up old wounds... :)

I got in to Vanguard Beta just after they had changed the combat system. For those who don't know the story, the original Vanguard combat system was slower paced and very tactical and almost completely different to how it was on release and now.

Because I never played it for myself, I only had a rough idea of how it worked but it sounded really interesting. But I just did some research in to it and found a post describing it in quite a lot of detail! Two posts infact, and both of them are on SV. Here is the main one, written by Fozzik:
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=559

Anyway, my questions are for anyone who knows and anyone who cares to comment:

1) Why did they change it? Did the early beta testers not enjoy it? I remember people complaining it was slow. But did they think it was slow because they never understood all the intricate decision making stuff happening in between hits? Or did they understand it but just not like it?

2) Would you personally like to play a game with a combat system like that sometime? I would! I'm a big fan of Magic The Gathering (as was Brad apparently), and this old system sounds like a real time, MMO equivalent of that. I would have loved to see it work... :(



p.s. If anyone can find a link to any old Beta 0 screenshots that are not dead links, please let me know! :) I couldn't find any that are still active.

[Fozzik]

Holy moly...that's some pretty simple questions with REALLY long, drawn out, complicated answers.

I don't want to write a novel (done that several times over already, hehe)...I guess the best way to sum things up is to say that the Vanguard I played in friends and family beta (really an early alpha state) was the best Vanguard that ever existed in my opinion. It really was shaping up to be the game described in the original FAQ. The problem was that it was WAY behind, the scope was out of control, and the management of the company was just beginning to fall apart at that time.

Yes, some of the early testers did complain quite a bit that the system was slow, and boring, and whatever. I didn't agree. It was very different, to be sure, and I think that was the heart of the problem. From even the earliest testing that Sigil did, people (even internally within Sigil) were calling for the game to be more WoW-like in just about every system and mechanic. There were STRONG voices within the company and the community (even some employees who were out campaigning against the game on public sites, won't name any names) who felt that the game was too unfamiliar, or too inaccessible to the casual masses...that you COULDN'T POSSIBLY create a successful MMORPG that was different from WoW, because the WoW formula was the clear bible on success.

It's pretty typical in any MMORPG testing for there to be a faction who calls for a more WoW-like accessible, easier, shallow formula...especially if you're setting out to make a spiritual successor to EQ. The question is how the developers react to it...and that's where Sigil fell apart. Due to being behind, the project being out of control, and due to bad management and interpersonal issues that developed (some totally unforeseen and terribly sad events contributed), the "make it more like WoW" faction started gaining traction. Instead of fixing issues and finishing the game, Sigil started pulling and replacing whole systems without really any overall sense of how each affected the game.

I was part of a group of voices calling endlessly for them to fix and finish the great game that we saw glimpses of in early alpha, instead of trying to change it at the last minute into something else. At the heart of the issue was Sigil's fear...they were seeing things fall apart internally, and beta tester retention rates were terrible. Most players that tried the game early on in beta left...and Sigil was scrambling to understand why. I felt that the bad reaction of a lot of beta testers was because of the highly unfinished, unpolished state of the game (people were expecting a typical MMO beta - which is really just a free trial or stress test), NOT because the game was different from WoW.

After all, the huge pre-launch community that had built up around Vanguard was largely all people who LIKED what the original FAQ said, and the contrast that it provided to the "norm" in the modern genre. Because of the internal strife and lack of leadership, the wrong folks stepped up and began pulling the game in multiple different directions. The loudest voices were the ones who said that the low tester retention was because they weren't making WoW 2... and the rest is history.

Anyway, I don't know if that answered your questions. I'll try and be more concise -
1) Yes, a lot of people enjoyed it, thought it had awesome potential, and argued tooth and nail for it to remain in the game (along with so many other systems that were changed).

2) Yes, I very much would have loved to play the Vanguard that Sigil spent 4-5 years on...not the game that they spent 1 year creating right at the end before release. If only...

[mmorpeegee]

Awesome reply, thanks a lot Fozzik :) Better than I even hoped for. I think it's a shame they didn't have the conviction in their idea. It could have really set the game apart from all the others. It's strange because when I was researching it on the internet, I saw lots of articles and people talking about it and there was so much interest. And on this site is a post by Oloh talking all about it, and it has 4 pages of replies from LOTS of people who all seem really excited. I can't help but wonder just how many people would have ended up loving Vanguard because it was different to everything else, and very tactical. But we will never know just how many people are out there who would have really wanted a system like that... A few hundred thousand bought Vanguard but that might have been a lot more if they stuck with the original system. And whats more, they might have actually stuck around too, unlike how it panned out with pretty much everyone quitting in the first few months.

It's a shame. It sounded right up my street. I love MTG but it's expensive to buy the cards regularly, and I always dreamt of them making an MMO version of it. They finally did recently but it's a total rip off. Vanguard would have been perfect though, a fun MMO world but with very thoughtful and tactical combat.

I wonder how long we will have to wait until we see another system like that again.. Some of the newer MMO's are actually pretty good I think, in terms of combat. It has come a long way since EQ, but still, the old Vanguard system sounded really unique, shame I couldn't play it! Thanks again.

[Fozzik]

Oh yeah, a complete shame. Not just about combat, though. There were tons of people really excited about the original concepts...Something like 250k people on the boards like 2 years before release. I'd never seen anything like it. Imagine that feeling you have about combat multiplied by about 10x with many other systems in the game getting pulled or revamped the same way...a lot of the most dedicated fans really started to go, "WTF is happening?!" We were arguing about each individual tree, and the forest was burning down.

Imagine if half the Sistine Chapel's ceiling was painted...and you got in and looked up and saw what it was going to be. Then a bunch of other people joined you looking up, and said "Good lord, look at all the gaps and missing figures, this sucks!" and left. Then the church themselves decided that people were leaving because the painting was bad, so they got all the kids in the congregation to draw over the whole thing with crayon. Somewhat of an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

Then the community started to go south because you had all those original fans, plus all the people showing up who felt the game had to be more like WoW to succeed, with panicking developers in the middle who couldn't figure out why retention was so low in beta (it never seemed to occur to them that players in this genre have certain expectations about the completeness and polish for a game in beta, and it had nothing at all to do with their game design).

To top it all off, once Brad completely fell apart, he came here and blamed the die-hard fans for ruining the community because we weren't accepting of the people who wanted Vanguard to be a different game. So it was our fault the game flopped. Crazy.

This is of course only my recollection of events, so take it as such. ;)

[mmorpeegee]

Haha nice analogy, pretty accurate too, sadly!

It's all pretty much in line with what I remember too. I remember being on the official forum right after it was created and soon after people started getting in to friends & family, and some guy (can't remember who) got to play the game at a Fanguard and gave out some info. It sounded amazing.

But by the time I got in to beta (I think I got in Beta 3 or 4), it was an entirely different game to what I expected. I was never sure if I was mislead, over-estimated what it was going to be, or if the game was just changed, but I think it was all three of those things unfortunately. That and the fact that they ran out of time and money, so some stuff just didn't even make it in.

The combat is the thing that hurts me the most though because that was the number one thing that attracted me to the game in the first place. I remember in like 2003 or something when the game was first announced, someone (Brad maybe) described it and specifically mentioned MTG inspired combat, and I was like :D But it never turned out.

I actually remember big discussions on the forum about the combat, and people were picking apart a quote about rounds taking 6 seconds. I remember posting at the time something like, "Even for tactical combat, 6 seconds does seem rather long". In hindsight I wish I stfu.... but the strange thing is that I expected the devs to reply with something like, "Well it does sound long but in reality you have so much to think about and react to, it wont feel long". But instead the reply came back from one of the devs and it was basically, ":(". I remember thinking wtf? Stick up for yourselves!

Then shortly after that I got in to beta and there was a lot of talk of people saying, "Combat is much faster now!" and I wrongly assumed that it was still the same system, just tweaked to be a bit faster. I was really excited and thought it was going to be perfect. Sadly I played it and soon realised it was not the system they started with :/ Oh well!

It lives on in my memory :p I hope some devs somewhere remember it too and might resurrect it some day in a new game. The current combat is pretty good these days, but I would still like to see a reeeeally deep and tactical one. MTG has its faults but after finally playing that game for myself, I have finally realised that no other type of 'combat' can really compete to the depth. Even a watered down rip off of MTG would be far above most games.

[Loampounder]

Wow, that post was six and a half years ago, almost two complete years before release.

I joined beta either during that change or just after. I do remember the old Leth Nurea and the combat-for-harvesting. I had not gained enough levels to appreciate the complexity in the combat system before they began to make major changes.

One issue you need to understand was that it was not just the pace of combat but the group-focused mentality. Many people wanted to include soloers in the audience, not to get stuck LFG for hours just to do combat, or be forced into a certain class choice because a combat group needed variety for certain moves. The combat system that Sigil originally built used different people with different talents for maximum lethality in a community-driven game; some people felt that the group focus went contrary to the market too much. I think, as the expenses mounted, Sigil was drawn too much to the possibility of mass appeal.

[Fozzik]

Wow, that post was six and a half years ago, almost two complete years before release.

I joined beta either during that change or just after. I do remember the old Leth Nurea and the combat-for-harvesting. I had not gained enough levels to appreciate the complexity in the combat system before they began to make major changes.

One issue you need to understand was that it was not just the pace of combat but the group-focused mentality. Many people wanted to include soloers in the audience, not to get stuck LFG for hours just to do combat, or be forced into a certain class choice because a combat group needed variety for certain moves. The combat system that Sigil originally built used different people with different talents for maximum lethality in a community-driven game; some people felt that the group focus went contrary to the market too much. I think, as the expenses mounted, Sigil was drawn too much to the possibility of mass appeal.

Some people *wink* suggested a more organic, simpler way to put groups together that was immersive and involved AI (this was well before things like dungeon finders turned easier groups into the assembly-line it is today). An NPC in cities and towns (probably a barkeep) would act as a matchmaker...players would head to the local tavern (in homage to all fantasy fiction ever), and would be grouped up with the right people just by talking to the barkeep and answering some preference questions. Level, class, etc. would all be taken into account.

I agree that Sigil was drawn too much to the conventional wisdom...but I think by changing out some of the more unique systems and shallowing / speeding up the game...they actually decreased their "mass appeal". I think they could have been a very solid success if they had stuck to their guns and really catered to the original target audience. I don't think there's a single formula or game style that attracts the masses (even though I know the conventional wisdom says there is), instead, I think providing real variety and high quality...and innovative and fun ideas like diplomacy, the original combat, et al...would promote much more successful games.

Also, selling out to SOE dramatically reduced their potential audience. I probably would have revisited Vanguard multiple times over the years if it weren't for my refusal to ever give SOE another red cent.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah the group thing struck me as being important too, especially after reading a lot of that old Oloh stuff. It makes me wonder if a system like this might have fitted better in more of an MORPG rather than MMORPG maybe one where you just play offline and then logon specifically to join a party, kind of like Neverwinter Nights or something, or Guild Wars. Although I suppose when the population is as big and healthy as WoW/Rift, matchmaking achieves instant groups anyway, even in big open persistant worlds.

The tavern matchmaker thing would be so much better. That's one thing I hated with Rift... I'm not even a RP'er or anything, but that was just silly. A little icon on the UI which would find you either a group or a battleground, and it would summon you there directly from wherever you are. So at max level you could spend the rest of your life in the one main town and never leave... just getting summoned to and from the groups. Really lame.

Sad about the VG original combat though. It's interesting to wonder how it might have affected popularity. Hard to know what 'the masses' would have made of it but I definitely would have liked to give it a good thorough play. I reckon I would have loved it too. The thing with these modern MMO's that have very fast combat, it's nice to spice things up a bit, but they are starting to intrude on to FPS territory. Especially now that some of them have Capture The Flag modes. Personally if I want fast paced action, I think a good FPS would suit me more. If I want tactical combat, the only thing that comes close (besides card games etc) is an RPG/MMORPG. They can overlap of course, but VG could have been pretty much out there completely by itself with a unique tactical combat system that nothing else had/has.

[tdewey10]

I missed original combat as well - it looks very interesting. Vanguard the game that might have been in so many ways. It's going to be a long time until we see a game that's close to what it was or could have been :brownie:

[mmorpeegee]

Indeed!

p.s. I notice that Richard Garriot guy is still itching to make something. He sounds totally insane too, lol. Maybe he can come up with something sometime, I hope someone funds him.

[tdewey10]

Indeed!

p.s. I notice that Richard Garriot guy is still itching to make something. He sounds totally insane too, lol. Maybe he can come up with something sometime, I hope someone funds him.

I doubt we'll see anything for that generation of gamers or from current established firms (SOE, Blizz).

Only hope are longshots like ArcheAge, Goblinworks, etc.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah. I would love for some small indie team to get a cheap but ok engine, and make a super old school mmo out of it. Kind of like what they are doing with Dawntide, only better :P But yeah ArcheAge / Goblinworks are promising too.

[dabble]

p.s. If anyone can find a link to any old Beta 0 screenshots that are not dead links, please let me know! :) I couldn't find any that are still active.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if this is zero, I think it's beta one. Only shot I could find on my machine. Nice to see the water with reflections though.

2550

[Fozzik]

I didn't notice your P.S. about screenshots...I have a metric ton of screenshots. I actually still have the beta 1 install of the game backed up...including all their documentation and stuff... plus the UI mods I did (sort of started the modding community myself :D).

Here's a few from late 2005. You can see the UI and things developing...but I think this was still the old combat system.


2547
2548
2549

Can you guys see those images with the gallery turned off?

[tdewey10]

Can't see them with gallery off :(

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah same lol I saw all kinds of promising ones but the gallery is no go.

[perfect]

...I have a metric ton of screenshots...Can you guys see those images with the gallery turned off?

1) Does the resolution play into the weight of a particular SS or do they all weigh the same?

2) I can see them just fine.

[Fozzik]

I believe it's set up so that staff can see the gallery even when it's disabled.


I'll turn it back on and see if anything explodes.

[Fozzik]

Gallery is back, and those images above should show for everyone now (I moved them to a public gallery).

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gallery/

[mmorpeegee]

WOOT thanks man that's awesome! :)

[tdewey10]

Gallery is back, and those images above should show for everyone now (I moved them to a public gallery).

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gallery/

Thanks. Very interesting. I'm sad I missed early combat. I saw the queue message on one of the screens.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah :) Old skoool.
http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/gallery/files/1/4/brennan9_original.jpg

And in this one you can see he interrupts one of the attacks. And also how you used to be able to attack body parts too :( I forgot about that.

[Lonestryder]

Very accurate synopsis, Fozzik. And thanks for the pics...sniff sniff.

[Jave]

Holy moly...that's some pretty simple questions with REALLY long, drawn out, complicated answers.

I don't want to write a novel (done that several times over already, hehe)...I guess the best way to sum things up is to say that the Vanguard I played in friends and family beta (really an early alpha state) was the best Vanguard that ever existed in my opinion. It really was shaping up to be the game described in the original FAQ. The problem was that it was WAY behind, the scope was out of control, and the management of the company was just beginning to fall apart at that time.

Yes, some of the early testers did complain quite a bit that the system was slow, and boring, and whatever. I didn't agree. It was very different, to be sure, and I think that was the heart of the problem. From even the earliest testing that Sigil did, people (even internally within Sigil) were calling for the game to be more WoW-like in just about every system and mechanic. There were STRONG voices within the company and the community (even some employees who were out campaigning against the game on public sites, won't name any names) who felt that the game was too unfamiliar, or too inaccessible to the casual masses...that you COULDN'T POSSIBLY create a successful MMORPG that was different from WoW, because the WoW formula was the clear bible on success.

It's pretty typical in any MMORPG testing for there to be a faction who calls for a more WoW-like accessible, easier, shallow formula...especially if you're setting out to make a spiritual successor to EQ. The question is how the developers react to it...and that's where Sigil fell apart. Due to being behind, the project being out of control, and due to bad management and interpersonal issues that developed (some totally unforeseen and terribly sad events contributed), the "make it more like WoW" faction started gaining traction. Instead of fixing issues and finishing the game, Sigil started pulling and replacing whole systems without really any overall sense of how each affected the game.

I was part of a group of voices calling endlessly for them to fix and finish the great game that we saw glimpses of in early alpha, instead of trying to change it at the last minute into something else. At the heart of the issue was Sigil's fear...they were seeing things fall apart internally, and beta tester retention rates were terrible. Most players that tried the game early on in beta left...and Sigil was scrambling to understand why. I felt that the bad reaction of a lot of beta testers was because of the highly unfinished, unpolished state of the game (people were expecting a typical MMO beta - which is really just a free trial or stress test), NOT because the game was different from WoW.

After all, the huge pre-launch community that had built up around Vanguard was largely all people who LIKED what the original FAQ said, and the contrast that it provided to the "norm" in the modern genre. Because of the internal strife and lack of leadership, the wrong folks stepped up and began pulling the game in multiple different directions. The loudest voices were the ones who said that the low tester retention was because they weren't making WoW 2... and the rest is history.

Anyway, I don't know if that answered your questions. I'll try and be more concise -
1) Yes, a lot of people enjoyed it, thought it had awesome potential, and argued tooth and nail for it to remain in the game (along with so many other systems that were changed).

2) Yes, I very much would have loved to play the Vanguard that Sigil spent 4-5 years on...not the game that they spent 1 year creating right at the end before release. If only...

I realize this thread is 6 months old, but I'll say it anyway....

THANKS A FRIKKIN LOT FOR DRAGGING ALL THOSE OLD MEMORIES UP AGAIN Foz! haha

While massively condensed, that's exactly how it went down. It happened so quick to. If my memory hasn't failed me, in a matter of months they ripped apart the entire core game design and replaced it with WOW friendly mechanics. The neutering of the death penalty was the memory that really stands out in my head. That was when it became crystal clear they had abandoned the entire original concept of what the game was supposed to be, and players started leaving in droves.

I wasn't in friends and family beta, however I was in the first round of beta players invited. As excited as I was to play, I remember the issues with beta. There was nothing to do! I started out in a small village with about 6 NPC's, and 4 of them served no purpose. I got a quest, finished it, got another, and another, all of them in and around the village. I'm guessing there was 6-8? The final quest told me to seek "so and so" up on the ridge. So I was like, "There we go! Now it's starting to make sense and take me somewhere"!. So I trotted off and saw a path leading up a hill and got about 3/4 of the way up, (I was level 5? 6?) and saw a mob at the top of the path. He was just standing there and clicking on him he was at least level 13.
So basically, that's it. I remember thinking, "Don't be lazy, run around, explore, this is how you did it in Qeynos and Qeynos Hills, lets do this"....But I just ran and ran and ran around. No mobs, no players, no NPC's...just miles and miles of grass. I logged off.

It did get better but I do remember logging in once a week, creating another character, same quests, same NPC's same high level mobs blocking my path to continue the quest line. It was truly a bummer.

[AsheMan]

I remember thinking, "Don't be lazy, run around, explore, this is how you did it in Qeynos and Qeynos Hills, lets do this"....But I just ran and ran and ran around. No mobs, no players, no NPC's...just miles and miles of grass. I logged off.

It did get better but I do remember logging in once a week, creating another character, same quests, same NPC's same high level mobs blocking my path to continue the quest line. It was truly a bummer.

That's how it was on release. Everything that was level 35+ content was missing. When my group of friends wanted to level up through the 40's in that first month, we had to go find a village of mantis people that were friendly and farm them for days. They were the only monsters in the game that we could kill for experience! After that first month, they finally populated some dungeons and areas for high level folks.

[Xaxius]

I haven't visited this site in years, but I read this thread and had to post. I was also in early beta for Vanguard. It's been the only beta I've ever been in where the game progressively got worse as the betas progressed. It really was a missed opportunity to take the industry in a different direction and bring something new to the table. The Adventure Journal, NPC providing quests by motioning to you and providing you a "rumor", the T. King interface, the combat system... there is just so much I miss that others never got to experience.

Anyway, I post a couple hundred images from back during that beta. I hope you enjoy them.

http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z274/Xaxius/Vanguard%20Early%20Beta/

[Vordox]

Nice Photos thanks for sharing.

[Loampounder]

Wow, thanks for the link to the pics.

[Fozzik]

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon. :D

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

[Lonestryder]

Ugh, I was there, too (along with the 65 - 98 folks on the early beta) and this makes me sad.

I, too, remember the 180 degree change in direction and the Brad post that essentially negated the entire FAQ up to that point. Such is life and such is the story of Vanguard.

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Jave]

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon. :D

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

Hey Foz! What forums are 38 watch? I've been following over on the FOH forums( http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/40053-38-studios-copernicus-mercury-other-stuff.html ). Curt was quite active and even answered a few of my questions a couple months ago but recently stopped posting. Now we know why.

Not that I was ever a huge poster, but for a long time it showed SV as a dead link so I assumed ya all packed it in. Good to see ya back on. I haven't been here in awhile but oddly enough was getting the itch to play VG again, and like you said, the similarities between the Vanguard and 38S situation are eerily reminiscent.
I've got a 90/90/300 character on Everquest 2 but it's not the same. Vanguard was......it was just so different. That was as close to original Everquest as we will most likely ever see.

Like the feeling you get when you played in your home city in Everquest, Qeynos, Freeport, Riverdale etc...Vanguard had the same kind of feeling. You were immersed. You knew the mobs, you remembered the quests, the city music actually moved you. While I've had tons of fun in Everquest 2, it's not nearly the same. Everything is so fast paced, you don't really get attached to anything. And now the market has changed so much, emulators may be the best our generation has anymore for another round at a great MMO.

[Fozzik]

http://www.38watch.com/forums/forum.php
^38 Watch community, if you have a desire to join in the wild, rampant speculation. Some of the superfans are a bit...hostile, but at least it isn't the official Amalur forums.

SV did go offline for a while, and I myself thought it was gone forever. I didn't even check the link for almost a year, because I thought it was gone. Then I was on a different website and someone linked to SV...I was like, "WTH?!" and so I came back and started messing with things again, trying to update a bit and finally move us a little away from being a long-defunct Vanguard fansite.

Have you looked at Guild Wars 2 at all?

[Jave]

http://www.38watch.com/forums/forum.php
^38 Watch community, if you have a desire to join in the wild, rampant speculation. Some of the superfans are a bit...hostile, but at least it isn't the official Amalur forums.

SV did go offline for a while, and I myself thought it was gone forever. I didn't even check the link for almost a year, because I thought it was gone. Then I was on a different website and someone linked to SV...I was like, "WTH?!" and so I came back and started messing with things again, trying to update a bit and finally move us a little away from being a long-defunct Vanguard fansite.

Have you looked at Guild Wars 2 at all?

GW2, while I admit I never played, nor even researched it, from all information it seemed as if it was built around a PVP model, which I hate PVP. Not only do I believe the majority of PVP players are total tools, they bitch and whine so much I wanna punch half of em. So obviously, the original Guild Wars didn't appeal to me.

Now from everything I have read and researched about Copernicus, it wasn't revolutionary or groundbreaking, and in fact, probing Curt for information he may have even been going the "WOW version 4.5" route(he never denied, nor confirmed it, but not denying it was worrisome). But I was gonna give it a try. He played EQ, and yes, he's playing WOW, but it's at least a little hope he remembered what was fun about the original Everquest.
Plus the wife missed original EQ. I introduced her to MMO's with Vanguard in 07', then Everquest 2, and I have to admit, if she had been playing in 99'-00', she would have been one of those psycho 15 hour a day raiders. She absolutely loves MMO's. She would have made me look casual at my 8-10 hours a day back in 2000. So I wanted her to get in on the ground floor of an MMO where she wasn't already 3 years behind.

What can ya tell me bout GW2?

[perfect]

...What can ya tell me bout GW2?

Everything you wanted to know about GW2 but were afraid to search for (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=107).

[Jave]

Everything you wanted to know about GW2 but were afraid to search for (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=107).

/SLAPS FOREHEAD! Way to pay attention there Jave haha. Thanks for the link. It's like asking where the bank is and the guy points across the street. I feel dumb now

[Fozzik]

Here's a great place to get a solid overview of the game...we can help with details after that.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/22266-guild-wars-2-mass-info-for-the-uninitiated/

There's also a TON of video on youtube...I would recommend checking out the Cynical Brit videos...as he provides a great new player perspective while still giving good commentary.

The first thing I'll say is that Guild Wars 2 is the most PvE-centric game I've seen in the genre in a long time. It's also the most PvP-centric....at the same time. How? Because they totally split the two and built the most incredible version they could of each one separately. They didn't try to mix them together...and because of that, GW2 offers the most purely cooperative and free-exploration PvE game play in one of the biggest, most amazingly immersive worlds I've ever seen.

Definitely check in over on the GW2 boards and let us know what you think. We're bored because there's no beta event going on...talking about the game and answering questions about it is the next best thing.

Oh, and this video will give you a bit of an impression of why these dynamic events are quite different from what other games have done -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CyqGJHTjes
It's a low-level event in the very first zone...but the depth of the system is clearly evident.

[Treesong]

Hello to the SV folks!

Hey Fozzik, the link in your email to your new forums did not work, it sent me to a dead end. Is your forum up and running?

Nice to see some traffic here, smart move to make a GW2 forum. It's definately the new kid on the block imo, nice and different and high value (the latter lacking in most other "nice and different" projects).

Because of GW2 I picked up GW1 from the shelf again after having played it only a few hours right after release. Back then it was just WAY too "not EQ" for me with all the instancing. :) But the second time around I quit enjoyed the different approach to the genre and also had a great time with the Hero-teams so I made it to 30/50 for my HOM!

Anyway, looking forward to the next BWE. Also still logging into EQ now and then now that it's gone ftp. Purely for nostalgia's sake, visiting old stomping grounds, reliving some memories.

Cheers!

[Jave]

Hello to the SV folks!

Hey Fozzik, the link in your email to your new forums did not work, it sent me to a dead end. Is your forum up and running?

Nice to see some traffic here, smart move to make a GW2 forum. It's definately the new kid on the block imo, nice and different and high value (the latter lacking in most other "nice and different" projects).

Because of GW2 I picked up GW1 from the shelf again after having played it only a few hours right after release. Back then it was just WAY too "not EQ" for me with all the instancing. :) But the second time around I quit enjoyed the different approach to the genre and also had a great time with the Hero-teams so I made it to 30/50 for my HOM!

Anyway, looking forward to the next BWE. Also still logging into EQ now and then now that it's gone ftp. Purely for nostalgia's sake, visiting old stomping grounds, reliving some memories.

Cheers!

WOW, long time since I seen that name! Hey Tree.....it's like we were all hiding out and slowly returning. What is it about this site that keeps people coming back anyway? haha. That tells ya how powerful this site once was.

[tdewey10]

Nice to see some old names swinging by. Feel free to hang out...there's more games on the horizon. :D

The current issues with 38 Studios are really bringing back a lot of these old Vanguard memories. I see some of the die-hard fans over on the 38 Watch forums acting the same way and saying the same things that we were back then. It's just so difficult to accept that a company just totally fell apart right in front of you, and pulled the rug out from under all your hopes and expectations. I'll never let it happen to me again, but some folks just seem to have the capacity to do it over and over.

Thank goodness that the genre continues to make games. Eventually we'll all hopefully find a home.

Actually as I commented to a friend, Brad & Co. should thank Curt & Co. They've managed to do the impossible - make Sigil look good.

Unfortunately for 'us' - 38Studios has killed the semi-independent MMO development. Aside from something like Elder Scrolls or Blizz's new game- I don't think we'll see new MMOs anytime soon from western publishers - we'll have to hope ArcheAge & etc are decent.

[perfect]

...I don't think we'll see new MMOs anytime soon from western publishers....

EA is in California and it has The Secret World coming out next week and Dungeon Keeper World coming out in October.

Trion is in California and they have Defiance coming out in August and End of Nations coming out in October.

CCP is in Reykjavik and has Dust 514 out in September.

Wargaming.net is in Nicosia and has World of Warplanes and Battleships coming out in October.

Paradox Interactive is in New York and has Salem coming out in November.

Hasbro is in Rhode Island and has Transformers Universe coming out in November.

Atari is in California and has Neverwinter coming out in November.

Cliffhanger Productions is in Jersey and has Shadowrun Online coming out in November.

**So there are eleven MMOs from western publishers coming out before the end of the year. I probably missed some, but, it is what it is.

I want to include Arena Net's Guild Wars 2 coming out in November cause they are in Washington but they are being published by NCSoft, who are in Seoul.

[tdewey10]

EA is in California


Those were all already far down the pike - I should have been clearer - we're not going to see a lot of new MMOs beyond a few strong IP titles like Elder Scrolls because after 38 Studios investors are not going to want to put money into MMO. But yes, where there is already money down the sink - those'll come out.

Of the ones you've mentioned - I don't think any of them will do well - maybe Salem which is far and away the cheapest MMO of the ones you've mentioned.

[perfect]

Those were all already far down the pike - I should have been clearer - we're not going to see a lot of new MMOs beyond a few strong IP titles like Elder Scrolls because after 38 Studios investors are not going to want to put money into MMO. But yes, where there is already money down the sink - those'll come out.

Of the ones you've mentioned - I don't think any of them will do well - maybe Salem which is far and away the cheapest MMO of the ones you've mentioned.

Oh, I think a few will do well but the majority will not.

GW2 will break records (even if I have to make the records up [first same classes, three faction MMO to have Sylvari]). Dust 514 will do well. Neverwinter will always have fans (you can't get rid of DnD players).