WvWvW PvP

[Fozzik]

ArenaNet is finally giving details about the massive server vs. server three-way open world PvP they will offer in GW2. It sounds really awesome, despite me not being a PvP player at all. It takes place in an entirely separate area from PvE, each match lasts for two weeks, and three servers get to compete with each other for rewards and ranking.

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

I might even be inclined to try that...especially considering all the cool ways to help out.

[perfect]

YES.

There is nothing in this article that worries me. It's DAoC 2.0 and that's a very, very good thing.

[Loampounder]

I like the idea of siege equipment, the need for supply bases, and NPC groups you can befriend (as long as it's done in a limited fashion), but all characters are boosted to lvl 80 equivalency? That seems like a poor band-aid.

Is there information on the mechanisms of "entering the borderlands"? It's it a copy to a new server or port there and back? Does experience and equipment go from the Mists to the home server? To me, this seems to be a big balance issue and I would like them not to have to tail wag the dog (borderlands become more important than the home server).

[ForestWhitakerEye]

I like the idea of siege equipment, the need for supply bases, and NPC groups you can befriend (as long as it's done in a limited fashion), but all characters are boosted to lvl 80 equivalency? That seems like a poor band-aid.

Is there information on the mechanisms of "entering the borderlands"? It's it a copy to a new server or port there and back? Does experience and equipment go from the Mists to the home server? To me, this seems to be a big balance issue and I would like them not to have to tail wag the dog (borderlands become more important than the home server).

Everyone entering WvW PVP gets automatically sidekicked up to 80, but they're not as strong as a real level 80. They've said a true 80 is stronger than a 40, who is stronger than a 20. You're not dead meat, but you're not as powerful and you also won't have access to any skills you haven't normally acquired.

All four zones are part of WvW, with each of the 3 "Borderlands" zones surrounding the central map. You'll port from the regular PVE-only world to your server's Borderlands zone presumably. No word yet on how teleportation will work in WvW PVP as far as I know.

In WvW you do gain experience as normal and players you kill will drop loot like they were NPCs. You can level from 2 to 80 entirely in WvW if you want.

Does this answer your questions?

[perfect]

...You can level from 2 to 80 entirely in WvW if you want....

What about level 1?!?

I intend to do most/all of my leveling in WvW. Three faction PvP is the bestest.

In DAoC, they handled entering the Frontiers (the Mists in GW2; they are the same thing) simply by opening a door and stepping through (or you could port further away). I imagine it's something very similar here: You're in PvE lands and you 'zone' into the PvP lands.

It's not a balancing issue as people can, say, go do dungeons for XP and loot or go do WvW for XP and loot. It's the same end result, through two different methods. As to which will become 'more important', I'm on the side of the fence that WvW will be vastly more important than fighting scripted NPCs. Fozzik and others will disagree. And that's a good thing because neither of us are right and giving the players equal variety will help ensure longevity.

[Loampounder]

Does this answer your questions?

Yes; thank you for the details. I had hoped for more of a community-building structure, in that you work with people on the server and then go to war rather than go to war and hope a community is built. The WvW concept sounds like it would be a great event, but instead it will be constant, with only a slight hiccip while they change the name of the other side.

In EQ, much of the community was built during the down times in groups. This set-up sounds like it gives little down time for a server community to be a server community.

[Fozzik]

I think community will develop in different ways in GW2, but the overall result will be the same. I definitely see server pride being significant, and pick-up groups becoming a useful and desirable thing again. I think players will develop relationships in the open world in both PvP and PvE because of the need for (and encouragement of) more complex tactics and strategy in the combat system. Cross-profession combos, the more active combat which involves real physics of movement...dodging, positioning, controlling ground, and blocking...and real benefits to working together without the negative roadblocks and annoyances.

It will tend to start simple...
"Hey, throw down a firewall right over here and I'll push the mobs through!"

And become more complex as you spend more time and get to know people...

"Let's try the Kobe beef maneuver on the left flank, and we'll fire arrows through the resulting poison cloud until they drop back into our force wall!"

Players will easily be able to get together and start working together to their mutual benefit, and will have the simple and fluid ability to STAY together and continue playing for as long as they like without hassle or overhead.

In short, people will get to know each other because interacting will be fun. In EQ you got to know people because interaction was REQUIRED, or the only thing to do while you sat. Different routes to the same goal.

This is all, of course, my own interpretation and conclusion based on available info, and my understanding of these games. (read: IMHO, YMMV)

[perfect]

...YMMV....

That's a little arrogant, isn't it?

I mostly agree with Fozzik, though: Community will build because you want to win in the same way that you did in EQ. You are happy when another player joins cause then you can do more without taking away from being solo.

As an experience PvPer, I can tell you that that community surrounding PvP is far tighter than those of PvE. There is no small amount of asshaberdashery involved in that but the friends that I've made online in PvP games are much better friends (and enemies, for that matter) than the ones I've met in PvE games.

[Fozzik]

That's a little arrogant, isn't it?


*confused*

I didn't intend it to be...

"Your mileage may vary" was meant to mean that someone else might come to a different conclusion when looking at the same facts...acknowledging the reality of varying perspectives, basically.

If you were having a bit of fun with me again, I'm going to have to admit that you're humor tends to go right over my head. :P

[Loampounder]

That's a little arrogant, isn't it?


He's infected, not arrogant.

[mmorpeegee]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-16-guild-wars-2-wvw-server-battles-take-2-weeks-maps-support-300-players

gief pl0x

[perfect]

..."Your mileage may vary"....

Oh, no, my fault. I thought it stood for something else. Sorry.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-02-16-guild-wars-2-wvw-server-battles-take-2-weeks-maps-support-300-players

gief pl0x

Only one thing I took away from this:

The Guild Wars 2 open beta begins in March.

[mmorpeegee]

Lol noob! Time to brush up on your internet speak grandad!

p.s. Yeah roll on March. Can't wait for this to release.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

What about level 1?!?



You get level 2 when you accept the reward for getting through the tutorial. :)

[mmorpeegee]

So it goes tutorial, level 2, level 80. I suppose this is one game where grind isn't much of a concern?! ;p

[Fozzik]

No no no.

You get enough experience to reach level 2 while doing the tutorial...which includes some fighting and a boss-type battle.

Then once you finish the tutorial, you can choose to gain experience in either PvE by doing dynamic events, personal story, or dungeons... or through PvP, in the mists of WvW. Either way, you earn experience and gain levels like a normal MMORPG from level 2 through 80.

The experience curve levels out at about 30 or so, and after that all levels take about the same amount of time played...around 90 minutes for the dedicated experience earner. So level 40 to level 41 will take about 90 minutes of earning experience...and level 79 to level 80 will take about 90 minutes of earning experience.

[mmorpeegee]

Sounds good

[Fozzik]

You're making fun of me again, aren't you.


Now I'm getting paranoid. :D

[Loampounder]

Then once you finish the tutorial, you can choose to gain experience in either PvE by doing dynamic events, personal story, or dungeons... or through PvP, in the mists of WvW. Either way, you earn experience and gain levels like a normal MMORPG from level 2 through 80.


But, at lvl 2, you can go into the Borderlands and get lvl 80 abilities, right?

[mmorpeegee]

You're making fun of me again, aren't you.


Now I'm getting paranoid. :D

A little :D But it does sound good. This is number 1 on my list for sure, waaaay ahead of anything else. The only thing that comes close is Arma 3, and maybe ArcheAge.

[dabble]

But, at lvl 2, you can go into the Borderlands and get lvl 80 abilities, right?

If the Borderlands you are talking about are the PVP areas I'm guessing it's like SWTOR. You get boosted to level 80 but you only get to use the abilities that are of your true level.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

But, at lvl 2, you can go into the Borderlands and get lvl 80 abilities, right?

In World PVP, you don't get new skills, you just get automatically partially scaled up in strength so that you're not helpless against a true level 80. But you can still level in World PVP, so as you level, your scaling will improve and you'll get closer and closer in power to a true 80.

The skill acquisition method right now is in flux as far as we know. They changed it from an earlier method so I'm not sure where exactly it stands. There's supposed to be skill points that you can use to purchase the utility skills you want, and they're supposed to be obtained through Skill Challenges, but I don't think we have a detailed understanding of that mechanism yet, especially how it works when you can level in either PVE or World PVP


Just to make sure this is clarified, World PVP differs from Structured PVP, which are the arena style matches. For Structured PVP you have access to all gear, skill and traits and are automatically sidekicked up to a true level 80. Those are a true test of skill.

[perfect]

But, at lvl 2, you can go into the Borderlands and get lvl 80 abilities, right?

No.

At level 2, your level 2 skills will act as if you are level 80 (doing more damage) but you don't get level 80 skills; you will only have your level 2 skills.

Completely made up example:

A level 80 character has Slash, Bash, and Hack. Slash does 50 damage, Bash stuns for 4s and does 20 damage, Hack does 100 damage. These numbers are the same in WvW (no Bolster).

A level 40 character has Slash and Bash. Slash does 25 damage, Bash stuns for 2s and does 10 damage. When in WvW (Bolstered to 80), Slash does 50 damage, Bash stuns for 4s and does 20 damage. This character does not have Hack.

A level 2 character has Slash. It does 10 damage. When in WvW (Bolstered to 80), it does 50 damage. This character does not have Hack or Bash.

In this example, the level 2 character and the level 80 character have the same Slash damage (50). If there were to stand there, hitting only Slash, you have an even chance to win (50% each). However, the 80 also has Bash and Hack. One Hack does twice what a single Slash does and the Bash prevents Slash from even being used (stunned). As you can see, the 80 is still going to win but the 2 isn't *completely* useless.

...Just to make sure this is clarified, World PVP differs from Structured PVP, which are the arena style matches. For Structured PVP you have access to all gear, skill and traits and are automatically sidekicked up to a true level 80. Those are a true test of skill.

Yes.

Structured is 'even class' vs 'even class'. Everyone has the same gear, same stats, same everything. This is not RPG (where you level up a character) but more like a FPS (where everyone in Quake or Counterstrike has the same abilities/gear) and, as such, is much more skill based.

[Loampounder]

Then what about equipment? It it a straight AC jump based on level, so the lvl 80's who "earned it" have a much higher benefit (stats, bonuses, etc.)?

[Fozzik]

Then what about equipment? It it a straight AC jump based on level, so the lvl 80's who "earned it" have a much higher benefit (stats, bonuses, etc.)?

Yes...they kick up your hit points and AC and things so that you don't get totally owned, but a level 80 will still have a significant advantage over a level 10 who is sidekicked up in WvW. Lower-leve players will have only the equipment, skills, and traits that the have acquired through their own play. The idea is to allow players to use their "real" PvE character, and have the option of leveling up in an open PvP environment (some people like this, although I'll never understand why). Other players you kill will drop a loot table just like PvE mobs, so you'll be able to level up and gear up entirely in WvW if you want to.

They are providing many alternate ways of making yourself useful in WvW, so that younger players will be able to help out even though they can't necessarily go toe-to-toe one on one with the big boys quite yet. Lower-level players can move about in groups and attack / defend supply camps and caravans, help fortify or assault the keeps / towers, or rouse some ogres to fight for their side.

[Loampounder]

It sounds a lot like the hype around Rift's zonewide invasions. They sound good on paper, but it really only becomes a zergfest with everyone rushing to spots on a map. I hope it's not like that.

[Vordox]

I'm not big on Item shops unless it is only vanity items. I played Runes of Magic and at end game unless you spent 70 to 80 bucks a slot piece you were one shotted. I spent about a grand over time and even with the money spent it is only so much fun mass killing no gear people. Gets old on both sides of the spectrum. I realize they need to make money though but if it is anything more than Novelty and xp pots (xp pots shouldn't be available until after the game has been out a few months). You start having Stat boosters and such your PvP becomes unbalanced and gives the (What I call ) unfair advantages.

PvP I know some love it. I enjoy it when I get to make the conscience decision to partake in it. I can even handle open PvP with the right crowd unfortunately respectable mature people are in huge demand these days. I will say I have played all kinds of PvP games and it has gotten stale to me. It is always the rinse and repeat capture flag,hold enemy territory,hold your own territory etc... I don't game for PvP primarily I game for adventure and to be challenged mentally as well as button dexterity, though the older I get the more Dex I lose -1 to dex after 40 lol

I have kept my eye on GW2 but until I get my hands on it. I'm not going to repeat my same past mistakes building up hope and anticipation and the slightest problem turns me into total cynic. I do get a bad feeling when I hear cash shop though.

Good to be back on SV and see my old friends and thats my 2 cents.

[mmorpeegee]

Good to see a new name, and I agree completely. My only experience of that kind of game is with Magic the Gathering. You buy cards to make a deck and then you fight other players. The problem is, although you can make a decent deck for say $10, you can make a deck for $400 and it's just not possible to compete with that. You might get a win or two against it with your 10 dollar deck, but you are destined to lose 95% of the time. As time went on, people got more and more tired of losing to expensive decks, and people either quit, or thought screw it and spent the hundreds of dollars to keep up, thus becoming part of the problem.

I looks like MMORPG's with microtransactions work in the exact same way. Like I said in my other post, I could go along with it if it was say $20 a year or something like that - there is no monthly fee after all. But as soon as you start spending $5 for your next 30 minute battleground or whatever, then it's just no good. I will skip the game if it ever becomes like that.

I would be surprised if they did though. I think there are just enough gamers who are smart enough to know how expensive it can become, who would avoid the game completely, that it would make it a bad decision to do that. I suppose we'll see.