The chink in the armor... GW2 Cash Shop

[Fozzik]

So this is of course one of the big question marks for old-school MMORPG players like myself and most of you. I know I squirmed in my chair when I first learned that GW2 would have a microtransaction shop...and I'm sure you probably did, too.

After learning everything I could about what ArenaNet was planning for microtransactions, I actually felt a bit better. I've discussed it at length on the GW2Guru boards, made some threads of my own (obviously), conducted polls, and just generally been a pain in the ass.

Why? Because for me, this is really the single element of GW2 that worries me...and that could possibly completely ruin the game for me. I love just about everything else, and all my research and belly button gazing leads me to believe this is going to be an awesome game that I will really enjoy, and might even move the genre in a better direction (i.e. a direction I like better *smile*). It seems utterly ridiculous to think that I might end up never buying or playing a game that looks this good, simply because the screw up on their MT shop. I hate thinking about that prospect.

So anyway, there was a recent development. I don't know that it means anything...we have very few specifics and only the ambiguous statements from ArenaNet to rely on...but they recently changed the wording of the answer in the FAQ about microtransactions. They seem to have changed it in a way that allows for a much broader interpretation, and could potentially give them ample wiggle room to sell almost anything in the shop.

Why would they change the wording unless they have something specific in mind that they don't want to contradict? Thus, I'm now even more concerned.

I will say this... I have a somewhat positive gut feeling. Considering how dead on ArenaNet has been in many areas of their design, and considering the very strong positive reputation they enjoy from long-time fans of their first game, I think it's quite possible they will handle the microtransaction shop with the care it requires, and not step over the line.

At the same time, it would be silly not to carefully consider my own position on the matter, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about it (and also more than my share of arguing about it over at GW2Guru). I'm still not completely decided yet...

So, some things we KNOW will be in the MT shop:
Additional Character slots
Account services and cosmetic character changes (hair, sex change, whatever)
Transmutation stones (these allow you to combine the look of one piece of armor you have with the stats of another piece of armor you have)
Town clothes or other statless cosmetic items

Some things that are rumored to possibly be in the MT shop:
XP potions
Temporary stat or HP boosts
(future after release) Content like dungeon packs that might later be bundled with an expansion.

Also, like I said, their new wording in their FAQ could honestly cover almost anything.

So, what does everyone think? Where do you draw the line? I'm hoping very much that they will supply more clarification on their philosophy soon, to get rid of the ambiguity. Ideally, it would be nice to find out what's in the shop soon so I could lay this to rest.

God, I hope they don't screw this up.

[Fozzik]

My personal view -

I believe that all value in an MMORPG is derived from time. The value of items on the in-game economy, the value of in-game currency, the value of the play experiences and memories you create while playing the game... everything is based around time. How long did it take you, and what did you do during that time?

Because I believe time is the central element that creates or bestows value, I think anything that allows a player to circumvent, bypass, or shortcut their time playing devalues the game in some way. Whether it be the value of a sword in the auction house, or the perceived value a player feels they received for the price of the box.

So, for me, that's really the most significant thing that I worry about with a cash shop... the potential to devalue the game and everything in it not only for the player who chooses to buy, but for everyone else as well. You buying a sword in the MT shop decreases the value of that same sword within the game world...and if I acquired it through play, I'm going to feel a little annoyed about that.

Along with that, I feel like selling the ability to shortcut or bypass playing the game is a sign that the developer / publisher does not have much respect for the integrity or consistency of their virtual world. It shows me that they have a lack of understanding about what provides longevity and promotes community. If they are slicing their creation up into small, sell-able tidbits, they obviously aren't interested in nurturing and fostering the "sum is greater than its parts" creature that virtual worlds can become. A company selling shortcuts through their game appears to me to have no faith that their product can stand on its own and be played simply because it's fun. I want the company to jealously protect the balance and value of their game, and everything in it...because that shows me that they take their own work seriously and are likely going to continue treating the game and the players well as time goes on.

In a similar vein, the idea of selling "advantage" of any kind bothers me. I think it totally disrupts the balance and the level playing field, and removes the equal opportunity that everyone has within the virtual world. Games are about playing...about spending time doing something fun. They aren't about buying cool collections of stuff and lording them over other people.

When I say "advantage", I put it in quotes because I'm aware it's a somewhat ambiguous word (it's actually the word that ArenaNet used that lead to my heightened concern in the first place). So let me nail down what I mean when I say "advantage". I mean anything that gives one player a leg up on another in terms of the advancement mechanisms within the game, whether for a short time, long time, or permanently. Obviously, the longer the advantage lasts, the worse I feel it is.

Because the advancement and development mechanisms vary so widely between games, it can be pretty hard to quantify exactly which ones matter. There's certainly no universal set for all games. In terms of GW2, levels and experience carry much less significance due to the game design, which allows players to sidekick up or down to do content, and which provides a relatively short and flat experience curve. GW2 is really more about horizontal advancement...it's about acquiring skills and traits and achievements, titles, etc.

Because of that, I'll be watching those elements particularly closely. I would be extremely uncomfortable with skills or traits being sold in the MT shop. XP scrolls that provide a short-term advantage in an area of the game with very little significance...I'd probably grit my teeth and be okay with those.

If they start selling leveled characters, top level armor and weapons, or content that isn't available any other way... those are very likely game-breakers for me and I'll be gone. The same goes for items which give long-term or permanent advantage of any kind over other players.

[dabble]

Totally with you. Weirdly I think it's the older players that fuel the cash shops and not the kids. I hear a lot of older players saying I just don't have the time to keep up with these kids these days, what with the job and the children, but I would stump up the cash to keep up. In my opinion it's akin to buying a cheat code. It does seem that pay to win is actually rearing it's ugly head now in quite a few games, the promises of only vanity items in cash shop have all but evaporated. Lets hope GW2 doesn't buckle.

[Loampounder]

For a MMO that planned to only charge for the initial box and no monthly subscription, it was pretty obvious their stance on monetary shops.

I don't like things that are not organic to the community; in that sense it means anything that the players did not discover, win in battle, craft, harvest, etc. Buying cosmetic clothes for RL money makes those items stand out and stand apart from the game. It breaks the community purpose for being there.

As for where I "draw the line", I don't really have a line. If I am enjoying it, I don't play. I played LOTRO when it went f2p. They slowly ramped up their store and created linked buttons in most windows and splash ads when logging it. It was moronic, but I was not paying anything. Overall it did lessen my enjoyment of the game and probably led to my leaving, but it was not one thing that drew the line.

As for GW2, it sounds like it will be fun and I will play until I lose interest. They will probably have a small MT shop at launch for cosmetic stuff, but I am sure it will grow. If they keep my interest before they get to the obnoxious stage with their MT shop, I will be happy.

[mmorpeegee]

My guess is that a Pay2Win shop would pretty much destroy this game, and I bet they know that. That doesn't stop them from setting out their EULA and whatnot to give them the freedom to do whatever they want though, but it doesn't mean they will do whatever they want.

Personally I've got no issue with all the cosmetic crap, and even the XP potions. If someone wants to reach the end faster, that's no concern to me. The only thing I would have an issue with is temporary stat potions and anything that would give someone an upper hand over me in PVP. It's really quite simple for me, if it's like the former then I'm looking forward to playing, if it's like the latter with stuff giving people who pay an upper hand over people who don't, then I just wont play.

The only exception to this is if everything is so cheap it doesn't really matter. There is no monthly fee after all, so if say $10 would get me a years worth of stat potions and whatever else, then that's fine. It's only a problem if it starts costing me something significant to keep competitive, and significant is basically whatever EQ cost me or more.

[AsheMan]

Cosmetic only items are okay with me. I would much prefer everything be available in game because I hate microtransactions of all kinds. If they sell gear, skills, or other items that offer an advantage of some type over other players then I'd probably just avoid the game.

[perfect]

Cosmetic only items are okay with me. I would much prefer everything be available in game because I hate microtransactions of all kinds. If they sell gear, skills, or other items that offer an advantage of some type over other players then I'd probably just avoid the game.

I'm mostly with AsheMan on this: Cosmetic or 'fluff' items only. If *anything* can be used in WvW that give the player an advantage (stat buffs, gear, etc; but not XP potions) then it's a complete pass for me.

[Lonestryder]

I'm mostly with AsheMan on this: Cosmetic or 'fluff' items only. If *anything* can be used in WvW that give the player an advantage (stat buffs, gear, etc; but not XP potions) then it's a complete pass for me.


I'll offer another perspective that is becoming less and less popular as the genre shifts direction.

I am NOT ok with any form of cash shop.

Any form whatsoever.

To me, everything within an MMO should be encapsulated within the gameworld itself, including cosmetic items. For an MMO, any items, including those that are purely cosmetic in nature, are just as important as statistic and ability-enhancing gear. If your character is the sum total of everything you experience and "own", then every item carries with it an equal value to someone - and this is why I find distinguishing some items as more or less important to gameplay is flawed in its logic.

That's my 2c anyway.

[mmorpeegee]

Aaahhh if only.

I'm kind of treating these as two different genres of games in a way. I do really like the sound of GW2, but to me I kind of just see it as an online big scale action game. Unlike old EQ which was more like a virtual world and a second life, or something.

I remember my first few weeks in that game when my friend and I did some exploring, and we saw two guys at the dock in Butcherblock Mountains, and they were in their 30's and had some really fancy gear, way beyond what anyone else had at that time. They must have been former beta testers or something. But I remember my friend /telling me Omg check these badasses out! And we inspected them and drooled and got all excited. The fact that I can still remember this after 13 years really says something. Yeah it probably says I'm a super dork, but it also says something about how big of an impact that game made on people.

When it started feeling grindy, part of my motivation to keep going was so that I could some day be uber like those guys we saw at the dock. And eventually, I was! And some newbies saw me one day and were blown away, and thus the circle of Norrathian life goes on.

Ideally, I would much prefer another game like that, and having no pay2rool crap is a big part of that. But I wonder if we'll ever get another experience quite like that. I wonder if it's like when you hear grandparents saying, "Baahh!! In my day....." and then telling some tale of hardship but ultimately how things were better. Are we are becoming our grandparents? Or does modern gaming just suck? :p Or both.

[Fozzik]

I'll offer another perspective that is becoming less and less popular as the genre shifts direction.

I am NOT ok with any form of cash shop.

Any form whatsoever.

To me, everything within an MMO should be encapsulated within the gameworld itself, including cosmetic items. For an MMO, any items, including those that are purely cosmetic in nature, are just as important as statistic and ability-enhancing gear. If your character is the sum total of everything you experience and "own", then every item carries with it an equal value to someone - and this is why I find distinguishing some items as more or less important to gameplay is flawed in its logic.

That's my 2c anyway.

I can totally understand that point of view, and in large measure I agree. The problem is...what game does that leave you to play? Just single-player? Maybe not even that. :(

I guess the way I originally justified changing my stance in the case of certain games with a cash shop (I was originally completely against the idea, too) was the fact that I could just ignore the cash shop completely as long as it didn't have a direct effect on the world. So, basically whatever items were in the cash shop just didn't exist in my mind...and as long as I could play the game without ever needing to acknowledge the shop's existence, I was okay. The minute I was forced to think about or consider the shop for any reason...I was no longer comfortable.

Just as an example, I never even knew that WoW had a cash shop until I heard other people talking about it. It literally never even entered my consciousness that they were selling minipets and whatever else in a shop...and that's the way it should be. I don't think any company is going to completely ignore the additional revenue, but it should be set up in a way where people can completely ignore it and still play a complete game without ever feeling left out or obligated. I could really care less what non-tradeable minipets some other player has in their collection that I'm never going to see...so those kinds of things are fine to me.

Another aspect of that ability to ignore is the fact that it's not in your face while you're playing the game...I don't think I could stand pop-ups or ads while playing. I'm actually pretty uncomfortable with the idea of a button in the UI, to be honest...There's no doubt that things are going to get worse in this vein, though. At some point we'll probably all reach a line we don't want to cross, and just end up quitting the genre we loved to play. :(

[Fozzik]

There's actually evidence from the beta that they will be using a cash shop currency... called gems or crystals...which can likely be earned in-game or purchased for real life money. They will sort of act like tokens at an arcade, all the stuff in the shop would cost gems instead of dollars. Most likely for the same reason they do it in arcades...to lock your money in and to hide the actual cost of things.

There are some rumors (totally unsubstantiated hearsay at this point) that the gems may be trade-able / sell-able in game. :eek:

*worries*

I really hope they clarify soon. I actually like the idea of being able to potentially get cosmetic items from the cash shop using in-game means...but if you can convert real-life money into in-game gold, that's a definite deal-breaker for me.

[mmorpeegee]

We'll see, I'm still holding out some hope that a large enough portion of the audience would reject that kind of thing, that it wont end up happening. So with a bit of luck, the best people will be able to 'buy' is koooool doodbro looking mounts and cloaks or whatever. I can live with that.

[perfect]

GW has a Cash Shop, right? Didn't they do it 'right' with that one?

[Fozzik]

GW has a Cash Shop, right? Didn't they do it 'right' with that one?


They did, for the most part, keep things very well under control in GW1's shop. There did end up being a few things in there that were close to what I would call "selling advantage"...but I understood the rationale for why they put them in, and so I think overall the shop was totally fine for the first game. They kept it in check for 6+ years so far...and that does speak very well of their integrity as a company.

The issue is that they have made it clear that things are going to be different with the new game. How different? We don't know.

The original wording in their FAQ did mention that the GW2 shop would be similar to what they did with GW1, and most people were pretty happy with that explanation. They changed the wording to remove reference to GW1...and made it sound quite a bit more ambiguous and scary.

Here's the old and new "official answer" -

Will there be micro-transactions or things to buy which don't come with the box, like character slots?

Old -
Yes, micro-transactions will exist. These will be cosmetic additions which will not affect balance or game play, similar to the transactions offered by Guild Wars.

New -
Yes, micro-transactions will exist. Be assured goods and items bought for cash in GW2 do not offer any advantage over those available in the game through the investment of time.

[mmorpeegee]

Hmm that is as positive or suspicious as you can imagine it to be really. I don't think we'll know until we know :P I seriously doubt they will screw us though, there are too many people like us who don't accept that kind of thing, and in a game which has a big PVP focus and not just an afterthought like others, I think it would be too risky for them to "sell advantage". (nice phrase)

AFAIK, a large part of their income from GW1 was the cost of the original game but then various expansion packs released afterwards. Obviously that business model worked because it afforded them to make GW2 to the standard it seems to be. So that gives me some hope they wont surrender their 'fair' stance now.

[AsheMan]

New -
Yes, micro-transactions will exist. Be assured goods and items bought for cash in GW2 do not offer any advantage over those available in the game through the investment of time.

I can see why there's a worry. This new wording leaves them open to sell virtually anything that can be obtained in the game. Want the Awesome Sword of Uberness? You can buy it for $9.99 or invest 60 hours in a certain raid event to finally get it to drop. That's selling an advantage and I won't tolerate it.

Tread carefully ArenaNet.

[Vordox]

There are some rumors (totally unsubstantiated hearsay at this point) that the gems may be trade-able / sell-able in game. :eek:

*worries*

I really hope they clarify soon. I actually like the idea of being able to potentially get cosmetic items from the cash shop using in-game means...but if you can convert real-life money into in-game gold, that's a definite deal-breaker for me.

It is like that in just about every pay to play game and I actually like it that way. I used to trade gold for cash shop cash all the time. Since I played alot I actually in a few games never had to spend any real cash and had plenty of cash shop items and cash. Of course in those games thought cash shop cash was a must have at some point to compete.

I gathered resources mostly and sold them for cash shop cash mostly that was the easiest.

I think as long as they don't get crazy with the cash shop items and make them mostly cosmetic,pets,mounts,dyes,new hairstyles,clothing patterns,weapon graphics overlays, etc.. It should be fine.

[mmorpeegee]

I think as long as they don't get crazy with the cash shop items and make them mostly cosmetic,pets,mounts,dyes,new hairstyles,clothing patterns,weapon graphics overlays, etc.. It should be fine.

Exactly. And I think that's how it will be, they are too smart to do pay2win, I think. ;p

[Loampounder]

Wow, a big change. It was purposefully changed from "cosmetic additions" to selling anything in the (non-MT) game. And that's the story BEFORE release?

[Fozzik]

Well, hence some folk's concern. :)

The developers did comment in the thread over on GW2Guru... basically just saying that nothing has changed, that nothing you buy will give you an advantage.

We talked it to death over there trying to get them to clarify, and they haven't said anything else. We'll just have to wait and see. The only thing I'm sure of is that they haven't totally made up their mind yet...so the more people that speak up on the issue now, the better.

In case anyone wants to throw their two cents in where the devs might read it...

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/what-microtransactions-do-we-expect-t3699.html?t=3699
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/gw2-cash-shop-info-changes-t27513.html?t=27513

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Personally, I'm not worried at all.

We know that in Structured PVP everyone competes at max level with all skills, traits and gear unlocked, so it's impossible to sell advantage in the place where it matters most.

Gear does have a minimum level to use. From everything we know, GW2 isn't a gear based game, that it will be easy to acquire the best statistical gear and then after that you're going for vanity skins. Like you'll get armor from a dungeon, it won't be any better, it'll just look better.

So even for PVE or PVP it's really hard to see how much "Pay to Skip" they can put into the game. It seems like you could only buy yourself being able to skip the time between obtaining level 79 armor and level 80 armor which shouldn't be very long at all.

With transmutation stones in the game, they don't even have to put stats on gear. They could sell skin+stone bundles and then you just transfer the look onto your naturally acquired gear.

I agree that the wording has changed and it's a little too ambiguous for my tastes, but after the GW1 cash shop I'm not concerned. Maybe if GW1 didn't exist I would be.

The funny thing about all this is that what we're all discussing is the wording in a wiki. Yes, it's the official wiki, yes it was updated by an ArenaNet employee. During the massive discussion period I thought about just changing it myself to say something like "Yes there will be a microtransaction shop, it won't be pay to win." and then leaving an editor's note asking ArenaNet to be less ambiguous when they change it in the future. But by that point it was starting to wind down and I decided to just let it go.

[AsheMan]

I read the response from an employee that said they had changed the description to be less ambiguous... Say what? Who is their PR person?

[Fozzik]

Nice to see you over there, Ashe. :)

I'm guessing the wording probably made sense to that developer because they've all been discussing it one certain way within the company. People often don't realize that they are taking things for granted, like a "loaded" word's definition. It would probably be as clear as day if we were looking at exactly what was in the shop like he is. ;)

[AsheMan]

Like you said, if enough people voice concern in an area where they're likely to see it, then hopefully they will very carefully consider what they put in the cash shop.

[perfect]

...so it's impossible to sell advantage in the place where it matters most....

That's a matter of opinion. I think structured PvP is where it matters least because structured PvP is a joke designed to give Jersey Boys their fix.

It's the WvW stuff that matters most because it will require the efforts of an entire server, not just a full group. And that's where 'advantage' gear/items will cause the most havoc if they are sold for cash.

We'll have to wait and see but, Fozzik, I am not liking you very much right now cause you put these doubts in my head.

[Fozzik]

Sorry. I didn't want to suffer alone. :p

[mmorpeegee]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIjkW6iyXNo

[perfect]

I kept meaning to come here and ask that but I kept getting sucked into mouse or silly ES MMO discussions:

Now that we know we don't get our first Epic Skill until after 30 and until after we complete a 'complicated' quest chain, does that make the free Epic you get from the DD or CE no longer valid? Does it bother you more? What are your feelings on paying cash for an item that no one else can have for 30 levels?

[AsheMan]

I don't like it, but nothing I can really do about it. So after level 30 I can train the same exact skill that they got in their pre-order or just an equivalent skill?

[Fozzik]

Do we know for sure that the skill is usable at level 1? My assumption was that it was just another elite skill in your pool of skills which you couldn't use until you unlock the slot at 30.

[Insatiable]

A stranger's opinion, but I will put it in the mix.

I don't see this detracting from the traditional aspects of the game, including true in-game economy (most of which is based on adventuring and crafted gear/items).

In every game I have played, players could use real money to get what they wanted. There is simply always a way for that to happen. Granted, in most others, it still benefitted the virtual economy. I don't see this being the focus of the GW2 MT market. Being F2P, they have to have continuous income. Most of this will come from content generation (dungeons, expansions, etc.), but supplemented by the goofy crap that many MMO players enjoy (special clothing, emotes, etc.). I have seen this on another MMO I play (City of Heroes/Villains).

The hard part is the MMO market has turned into this impatient, WoW-child environment overwhelmed with players that want instant gratification and fast levelling. The other hard part is so much of this has been done, so how do you become new and fresh?

We are all speculating, so I hope I am right in that I think GW2 will have a nice balance. There is enough of a following from GW1 that a traditional MMO presence will be there, but the F2P and the MT market will attract other players and provide a funding stream for improved content. I personnally don't foresee the MT market eliminating the demand for an in-game market.

The biggest detriment I have seen to the traditional in-game market (and I am ignorant here, but it will be a focus for me during the next beta event) is how easy and fast crafting looks to be. Perhaps this will reduce the 'separation' of classes EQ and Vanguard seemed to have, but if all you have to do is create your own gear and it's really easy, there may be less tendency to buy it.

If PvP and WvW drive this game (I did not have the time to experience this either), how will they manage disparate equipment differences? This killed APB (All Points Bulletin). Equipped players completely smashed the others, people left the game in droves and new developers had to restructure it. I think this is a separate topic, but I see this being more of a success indicator for the game than the MT market.

[perfect]

I don't like it, but nothing I can really do about it. So after level 30 I can train the same exact skill that they got in their pre-order or just an equivalent skill?

No. Each player has three elite skills that are a combination of class and race. The DD/CE elite is only available to those buying the DD/CE and is not included in any other race/class combo.

Do we know for sure that the skill is usable at level 1? My assumption was that it was just another elite skill in your pool of skills which you couldn't use until you unlock the slot at 30.

They said it was usable 'at creation' back when they first did the pre-purchases. I'll try to find the quote shortly.

edit: Well, then, never you mind.

When used, the elite skill will summon a Mistfire Wolf to temporarily fight alongside you and your allies. Since it's an elite, it's usable only after level 30.

...The biggest detriment I have seen to the traditional in-game market (and I am ignorant here, but it will be a focus for me during the next beta event) is how easy and fast crafting looks to be...If PvP and WvW drive this game (I did not have the time to experience this either), how will they manage disparate equipment differences?....

Crafting is easy but a huge money sink. At least to start, you will have to make the decision on whether or not you want to be good at crafting or have all your skills. The first skill book (at 11) is 10s, the last (at 30) is 3g. Every recipe requires an NPC component and they are not cheap (23c for a stack of 10 for the Novice skills).

All arms and armours are buffed up to the same level in WvW. A higher level player will have benefits in the forms of additional gear slots and skills.

Example:
A level 10 chest piece has 10 STR, 20 DEX on it. In WvW, it's buffed to 80 STR, 160 DEX.

A level 40 chest piece has 40 STR, 80 DEX, 20 VIT. In WvW it's buffed to 80 STR, 160 DEX, 40 VIT.

A level 80 chest piece has 80 STR, 160 DEX, 40 VIT, and 5% crit chance. In WvW, it isn't buffed as it's already 80.

You can see that the higher armor has more 'slots' for stats that get buffed.

All that being said, I found that gear disparity meant little or nothing in actual fights. The few 1v1s that I was involved in were against higher level opponents (judging by their gear) and I still won 50% of the time. That might change over time as people learn to play their classes but the stated goal of AN was to minimize gear disparity.

[Fozzik]

As I understand it, the mistfire wolf skill is intended to be like one of the racial skills...basically a reskin of one of the racial elite skills. The racial elites are less powerful than the class elites. Since you can only use one elite skill at a given time, it really offers no advantage, just a bit of visual variety.

I don't really like them selling skills, period, but they did keep it quite tame.