Gold for real money.

[Fozzik]

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-obrien-on-microtransactions-in-guild-wars-2

Well ****ing shit.

Yeah. Sorry.

I'm somewhat speechless. I'm going to need some smarter people to help me be objective about this, and figure out exactly why I hate it so much. Maybe I really am done with the genre.

I'm going to think about it for a while. On the surface, it looks like ArenaNet straight up lied from the beginning, and pissed away an awesome game design with a P2W business model that they claimed wouldn't be necessary.

[perfect]

I have no issue with anything said in this post.

My main concern was that someone could pay to have an advantage over me and in black and white, he says that's not going to happen.

What do I care if someone pays $50 to get 100 gold? A player had to earn that gold, it's not like it's being injected into the market (inflation; looking at you Fed).

Hell, if I make an awesome thing through crafting, sell it on the AH for Gold, sell that Gold for Gems and buy *myself* a cunning hat, that's GOOD for me (cause I really like cunning hats). It's good for the person buying my crafted item, it's good for AN cause they got a profit out of selling Gems. I fail to see the issue at stake here.

Also, I like the inclusion of Karma as the 'goal orientated' currency. You can't trade it, can only earn in through in-game actions to spend on in-game, unique rewards. That's your 'substantive' currency, as a wise person once said.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items. But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases, and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time

Breaking this down...

We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves.

Ok fine whatever. Costumes are fine, even armor is fine because of horizontal progression, minimum levels on equipment and transmutation stones. I know you've talked about items being devalued, but there's no indication that you can obtain karma or dungeon tokens this way.

They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items.

Account services I don't really care as long as they give things like enough character and bank slots so I don't feel like I'm being held back. Time saving convenience items, this is where we differ but I don't care up to a degree. It depends on the items. Things like a golem banker for instance. It has to be a convenience item and it would make me feel better if these types of things were obtainable through a reasonable amount of gold (converted to gems).

But it’s never OK for players to buy a game and not be able to enjoy what they paid for without additional purchases

This is important to me, because I really hope to never spend any money at all. This is a big question, how "necessary" are these "convenience" items? Will I be able to enjoy the game without having to grind for them?

and it’s never OK for players who spend money to have an unfair advantage over players who spend time

If there is truly only horizontal progression, then this doesn't really bother me. I don't really care about looks or someone getting there faster. So again there's a question of degree. If it's not true P2W and I don't feel like I'm being "held back" then I'm not really bothered.

Would I prefer a cash shop which was only costumes and account services? Yes. Does this cash shop bother me? I don't think it will, but I'll be keeping my eyes open.

[Fozzik]

I'm surprised. So you guys don't see problems?

I'm still thinking about it, and I doubt we're going to convince each other to change our minds regardless... so I'll keep my concerns quiet for a while.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

I'm surprised. So you guys don't see problems?

I'm still thinking about it, and I doubt we're going to convince each other to change our minds regardless... so I'll keep my concerns quiet for a while.

Going back to ArenaNet's correction on this article...

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/21/guild-wars-2-to-have-dlc-microtransactions/

As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”

Assuming that ArenaNet hasn't changed their minds about this, then I've got a wait and see attitude as far as my concerns. If I can play the game and not feel held back at all by not buying something, then what other people might spend money on doesn't bother me. My issue will be when the cash shop becomes necessary, either because it's selling power or the convenience items stop being "convenience".

[mmorpeegee]

It's all about gear.

He totally contradicts himself imo. At the start he says he doesn't want people to be able to buy an advantage, and then just a moment later he talks about how gold and gems are tradeable, and gems are buyable with real cash... In other words, gold is the currency of the game and you can buy gold with real cash. In other words, someone who spends $100 or whatever can have a huge chunk of gold to buy everything and anything they want.

So basically, unless everything you can buy in game is purely cosmetic, then he is talking total BS. Some people say that gear is not a big deal in this game, so unlike say EQ, you aren't going to be able to buy an epic haste item and flaming swords of win. Maybe if gear is constantly dropping from mobs and quest rewards, like Vanguard, everyone is constantly getting plenty of green and blue items. If that's ALL you can buy with gold, then I would be ok with that. Even with a billion gold, at the very best you are only going to be able to buy yourself a hand picked set of green/blue type gear, which isn't going to be much of a big deal compared to everyone else who has a set of green/blue gear that they just randomly collected.

But if there are any red/yellow type items in the game... then you are simply able to buy an advantage.

[perfect]

...Would I prefer a cash shop which was only costumes and account services? Yes. Does this cash shop bother me? I don't think it will, but I'll be keeping my eyes open.

Totally. I wish it was just costumes and account services. That being said, who says it isn't?

Was discussing this with my Spouse at lunch. Asked them to give me 'worst case' abuse. Talked through it. Turned out, it doesn't matter to either of us.

If someone drops $500 to get 10,000,000 Gems (or whatever), they can use those Gems to purchase things that do not affect gameplay. Big deal. They have their Cunning Hats faster than I will.

If they take their 10,000,000 Gems and want to sell 500 of them for 1,000 Gold, they need to find a player willing to take them up on the offer. This 1K Gold is not created, just moved from one player to the other. Big deal. The rich guy has a bunch of Cunning Hats. He wants to sell one for 1K Gold. That's what he just did.

I have 1,000 Gold and I want a Cunning Hat. I find someone who wants my 1,000 Gold and wants to give me 500 Gems for it (enough to buy a Cunning Hat). I just spent 1K Gold to get the Cunning Hat. That's a good thing.

I don't see any of this impacting gameplay. If anything, it adds to it because of a new market (I can trade crafted Swords of Cunning for bought Cunning Hats instead of just trading for more crafted gear).

Because everything scales (supposedly) and the only substantive achievements are earned through Karma, I don't see how the Gold/Gem market hurts anything. Specially without a Subscription. Dude wants a bazillion Gems to buy all the Cosmetic Pets and Fancy Shoes, so be it. I'll be jealous (I'm a Vanity Pet whore), but not any more jealous than the guy who got the Moss Covered Twig in EQ before I did. Least it gives me something to work towards and now I *can* get the Cosmetic Pets without spending a real life dime on them (whereas before I was looking to buy them with real cash).

Same dude wants to buy XP or Glory Potions? Again, because everything scales, getting to the 'end game' is pointless. Everything is the end game. Levels 1-900, all end game. Do it all at any level. Yeah, he'll get the cool Cosmetic PvP Armor before I will but he won't be any BETTER in it cause he has it. Sides, we all know the Karma armor (which you can't buy) will be better, anyway.

[perfect]

...So basically, unless everything you can buy in game is purely cosmetic, then he is talking total BS....

It's supposed to be. That level 50 Sword you picked up at level 10 will act as a level 10 Sword until you get to level 50. It scales. There is no stat advantage: You will be scaled up and down to fit the content that you are currently experiencing.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

It's supposed to be. That level 50 Sword you picked up at level 10 will act as a level 10 Sword until you get to level 50. It scales. There is no stat advantage: You will be scaled up and down to fit the content that you are currently experiencing.

There is gear which has a minimum level. For example, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ghastly_Reaver minimum level 45. You do not automatically scale up in PVE in GW2, only down. There's still progression and getting gear with stats. The difference between GW2 and other games is that the endgame is horizontal progression. The armor you get from the dungeon won't be any more powerful, it will just look cooler.

Totally. I wish it was just costumes and account services. That being said, who says it isn't?

Was discussing this with my Spouse at lunch. Asked them to give me 'worst case' abuse. Talked through it. Turned out, it doesn't matter to either of us.

If someone drops $500 to get 10,000,000 Gems (or whatever), they can use those Gems to purchase things that do not affect gameplay. Big deal. They have their Cunning Hats faster than I will.

If they take their 10,000,000 Gems and want to sell 500 of them for 1,000 Gold, they need to find a player willing to take them up on the offer. This 1K Gold is not created, just moved from one player to the other. Big deal. The rich guy has a bunch of Cunning Hats. He wants to sell one for 1K Gold. That's what he just did.

I have 1,000 Gold and I want a Cunning Hat. I find someone who wants my 1,000 Gold and wants to give me 500 Gems for it (enough to buy a Cunning Hat). I just spent 1K Gold to get the Cunning Hat. That's a good thing.

I don't see any of this impacting gameplay. If anything, it adds to it because of a new market (I can trade crafted Swords of Cunning for bought Cunning Hats instead of just trading for more crafted gear).

Because everything scales (supposedly) and the only substantive achievements are earned through Karma, I don't see how the Gold/Gem market hurts anything. Specially without a Subscription. Dude wants a bazillion Gems to buy all the Cosmetic Pets and Fancy Shoes, so be it. I'll be jealous (I'm a Vanity Pet whore), but not any more jealous than the guy who got the Moss Covered Twig in EQ before I did. Least it gives me something to work towards and now I *can* get the Cosmetic Pets without spending a real life dime on them (whereas before I was looking to buy them with real cash).

Same dude wants to buy XP or Glory Potions? Again, because everything scales, getting to the 'end game' is pointless. Everything is the end game. Levels 1-900, all end game. Do it all at any level. Yeah, he'll get the cool Cosmetic PvP Armor before I will but he won't be any BETTER in it cause he has it. Sides, we all know the Karma armor (which you can't buy) will be better, anyway.

There are different ways to get some kind of advantage other than pure power. Variety is one option. If you can amass more sets of armor with different stats, or unlock all your skills (or traits) while other people haven't unlocked them all, then you're more versatile than other people.

Another concern that I have is just how much convenience are we talking about here. For example that golem banker that lets you access your bank anywhere. With the deluxe edition it's only for 5 days and there's teleportation back to town and free mail so to me who really cares. Not that I expect them to do this, but what if XP is glacially slow, or certain rare drops have a painfully low drop rate, or you could teleport to your friends even if it was someplace you hadn't been, or you had a way for your armor not to break, or something else I can't think of. This is my concern, being held back in a way where a "convenience" item becomes something you need to buy.

I'm really not worried and I suspect this is going to all end up being much ado about very little. Still, I would definitely prefer to eliminate the concept of convenience or "temporal advantage" completely and have it just stick to costumes.

[Loampounder]

Here’s our philosophy on microtransactions: We think players should have the opportunity to spend money on items that provide visual distinction and offer more ways to express themselves. They should also be able to spend money on account services and on time-saving convenience items.

An underlying problem is that cosmetic things and distinctive items used to be built into the game and assumed to be part of the standard development of the game. With this philosophy, they START with the plan than these details are a separate, chargeable feature. That mindset tends to make for a flat game product, much like buying a domestic car with no add-ons.

I know none of this is new; the original Guild Wars also had microtransactions. But microtransactions were an afterthought in Guild Wars, whereas with Guild Wars 2, we had an opportunity to integrate the microtransaction system from the ground up, giving players more options and more convenience without sacrificing our design principles.

And the problem is that by integrating the MT system, they build in the scaleability, so that it will be trivial to change their direction with the extent of their sale items. I have a hard time with game companies tell me "trust us, we don't go further..."

But the biggest problem to me is that the design team has bought into the entire concept of selling "time-saving convenience items". Those words can be expended to MANY things, like selling raw materials directly, selling experience potions, selling any available item in the game that they want. To me, it's not just an "unfair advantage" situation, but lowering the community to a mall.

[Fozzik]

I'm with Loam and forest. I'm still not sure if it will keep me from playing...but I think the whole argument for this system is a little bit ridiculous.

"It's okay to be able to buy everything that's trade-able in the game for real life money, because nothing you can buy gives you any advantage over another player. It's all cosmetic."

Not only does this seem a bit impossible the way it's worded (I think probably they should have said "permanent advantage", because clearly their are advantages of various kinds to be had for gold...notice ArenaNet qualifies by saying "unfair advantage" which basically nullifies the whole statement), but it also implies that pretty much everything in the entire economy really has no value...making it kind of meaningless and pointless in terms of a universally recognized significance that the community all strives for.

I think that what they've done here is basically make the entire acquisition aspect of the traditional MMORPGs and RPGs into a completely solo, personal-goal-oriented thing. All loot is just yours, any items you go after are only significant to you, etc. There will be very little in the way of any items which have universal value to all players, which they can show off, feel pride in, etc. I think this is sad...and it's a big part of what's social and fun about the "old fashioned" MMORPGs.

The only goals that will fall into that traditional category of acquisition and advancement will be the non-trade-able (i.e. outside the economy) stuff. This could be okay...if there is A TON of this kind of stuff. If the vast majority of the stuff in game (and I mean not just items, but also titles, achievements, whatever) will be trade-able or buy-able and therefore worthless (can be bought with real money, provides no advantage, etc), then I'm wondering whether the game will hold people's attention for very long.

I would also point out that even if you argue that the things you can buy don't offer permanent advantage, you still have to admit that for 80 levels (the first roughly 120 hours of game play), you can buy your way to better stats, faster advancement, and probably a much more hassle-free experience. That, by itself, kind of sucks for those who aren't planning to spend real life money that way. That's quite a lot of game to play at a distinct disadvantage just to get to the part where it's equal.

I think I've talked before about why I hate "boosts" or convenience items...they make the regular game feel painful when they run out, which pushes you to buy / acquire more...and pretty soon that's the "norm" and those things stop being a choice and start becoming a necessity (for players themselves and for guilds ...which really sucks).

Convenience items are also, at their heart, about allowing players to get the rewards from playing without actually playing...they are paying real money to devalue the experience of other players who choose to actually waste their time playing the game.

EDIT: My major concern now is with the "convenience" items...and how ArenaNet manipulates the game to make them necessary.

[AsheMan]

The game is beyond tainted now. If you can trade gold for cash-gems then you're essentially able to buy anything trade-able in-game with cash. To quote Walter Sobchak, "OVER THE LINE!"

Not only can you now buy cool cosmetic crap to make you look all special or "time saving items" like exp potions, but you can also go buy all the real gear you ever need from the auction hall with the gold you just traded cash-gems for. It's 100% pay-to-win.

Yes, it sounds like you can put yourself on an even playing field by actually investing time and playing the game, but that's not good enough for me. It's 100% unfair and unbalanced that Joe Schmo can come into the game, buy lots of exp potions or whatever to out level me and then spend cash to fully gear himself out.

I think I'm done with GW2 and probably MMOs altogether. This is just sickening. (Yeah, yeah time changes everything and I could end up being a hypocrite)

[mmorpeegee]

I'm not too scared off about the pay2win thing now, if indeed the gear is all just cosmetic. But now I worry that without interesting gear, there is a lot less to keep me interested in the game. With EQ, getting phat lewtz was the main thing that kept most people playing, imo. GW2 seems like an almost entirely different type of game. Less of a traditional mmo where you go out adventuring for legendary named mobs to collect their uber loots, and more of an FPS type experience where all the characters are pretty equal in terms of damage output etc.. and it's all just about 'doing stuff' and hopefully enjoying yourself. Like Counterstrike or something, everyone is even, but instead of just running around shooting each other, you play through events and quests and big battles and stuff. All linked together in a pseudo-world with instanced towns as hubs.

Sounds pretty cool. Not virtual world sandboxy type experience I have been hoping to get someday, for years, but still it could be fun in its own way.

[Loampounder]

Not only can you now buy cool cosmetic crap to make you look all special or "time saving items" like exp potions, but you can also go buy all the real gear you ever need from the auction hall with the gold you just traded cash-gems for. It's 100% pay-to-win.



I agree with you, but since many people have different concepts of pay-to-win, I instead view it as anti-community. By paying money for in-game items, that person is going around the community while at the same time kicking the economy in the side.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

The game is beyond tainted now. If you can trade gold for cash-gems then you're essentially able to buy anything trade-able in-game with cash. To quote Walter Sobchak, "OVER THE LINE!"

Not only can you now buy cool cosmetic crap to make you look all special or "time saving items" like exp potions, but you can also go buy all the real gear you ever need from the auction hall with the gold you just traded cash-gems for. It's 100% pay-to-win.

Yes, it sounds like you can put yourself on an even playing field by actually investing time and playing the game, but that's not good enough for me. It's 100% unfair and unbalanced that Joe Schmo can come into the game, buy lots of exp potions or whatever to out level me and then spend cash to fully gear himself out.

I think I'm done with GW2 and probably MMOs altogether. This is just sickening. (Yeah, yeah time changes everything and I could end up being a hypocrite)

If there's no gear in the game which is better than the easily obtainable gear, then it can't be P2W. GW2 has horizontal progression, not vertical.

This is a good article that I think everyone should read.

http://www.thetyrianorder.com/home/m/2850070/article/638922

[mmorpeegee]

I'm feeling quite good about it now.

Although I tried out a few WoW emulator servers this past week (and quickly got bored), but I was impressed by how one of them had several different shards, which each had different rules regarding donations. On some of them you can donate and you get rewarded with uber stuff. But there were a few servers where the donations got you only strictly cosmetic stuff.

Kinda strange if a free emulator provides that kind of choice, but a huge budget game doesn't.

[Fozzik]

I stopped reading the article after the second paragraph. If they aren't going to fully address the concerns, it's a pointless argument.

Why does everyone completely ignore the first 100+ hours of the game? Everyone talks about how you can't buy more powerful gear and items at level 80... but you can clearly buy more powerful gear and items during the leveling curve. That's a pretty long time to slog through at a decided disadvantage for players who don't want to spend real life money. Why does nobody address this?

The idea that supply and demand will keep individuals from becoming massively rich in-game doesn't hold water. Sure, if a lot of gems are for sale the price goes down...but not immediately. The fluctuations aren't instantaneous. I put up 1 gem, it's worth 5 gold... I put up 10 gems and POOF they are each worth 1 gold. It doesn't work that way.

Think about this case. I, as a player, need 10 gems to get whatever the thing is that I want from the cash shop (a character slot, for the sake of example). On the auction house, there are currently 30 gems for sale... 2 are for sale at 100 gold a piece, 5 are for sale at 150 gold a piece, and the rest are for sale at 200 gold a piece.

In that situation, the guy selling his gems for 200 gold still sells his gems because I can't get what I need unless I buy some of the expensive ones. Players who are taking advantage of buying things don't tend to be patient...I know, I've exploited this fact quite often in other MMORPG's economies (strictly for in-game gold, of course). I see a bunch of mats available at 1 gold, but they aren't full stacks...so I put up my full stacks for 2 gold each, because I know players like to buy full stacks and won't really pay attention to the price.

I said all that just to point out that supply and demand aren't absolute in their control of prices, and they don't stop individuals who understand how to "game" the system from amassing HUGE wealth, causing out-of-control inflation, etc.

Again, the P2W argument is defined entirely by your own personal definition of "winning". In GW2, progression is horizontal...but it's still progression. Getting more options, become more versatile, DO represent advancement. Cosmetic rewards are what is at offer...so selling cosmetics IS selling advancement in this game. If winning is achieving the goals you set for yourself in the game world, then being able to pay real money to speed up that achievement (or buy the goals outright) would constitute winning in this context.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

Why does everyone completely ignore the first 100+ hours of the game? Everyone talks about how you can't buy more powerful gear and items at level 80... but you can clearly buy more powerful gear and items during the leveling curve. That's a pretty long time to slog through at a decided disadvantage for players who don't want to spend real life money. Why does nobody address this?


How can you buy more powerful gear while leveling if items have a minimum level requirement?

[Loampounder]

From a player’s perspective, RMT companies have all the wrong motivations: the more money they make from selling gold, the more they spam ads in the game, run bot networks to farm gold, and hack accounts to loot them for gold. Conversely, under our system, players have all the right motivations. If a player buys gold from another player, he gets the gold he wants, the selling player gets gems she can use for microtransactions, and ArenaNet generates revenue from the sale of gems that we can use to keep supporting and updating the game.

But in this scenario, isn't Arena a RMT company? Sure, they won't be using bots or hacking accounts (which people will still do because there is real money involved) but their money (after the first box sale) will come from selling gems so expect more ads and created items.

And it sounds like they planned this from the beginning. We had heard very early that the game would not be subscription-based, that all you would have to do is buy the first box and you could play for years. Now, Arena is saying that they planned to get RMT sales to support the game.

[Fozzik]

How can you buy more powerful gear while leveling if items have a minimum level requirement?

There will be tiers of gear at each level, just like other games. Grey, green, blue, purple, whatever.

If it takes me nine hours in game to get enough gold to buy a purple item (or enough karma to get a purple item, or whatever), That whole nine hours the RMT player will have that purple item, because he can get it instantly...so he has a statistical advantage. Multiply that by every level until 80... he has an advantage pretty much the whole time.

It's not just armor stats either. if he is earning influence faster, he's going to get more rewards in the same amount of time. If he's earning experience faster or avoiding time / money sinks...he is going to level faster and be more powerful as well as have higher level gear compared to me.

He can also buy influence with coin he got from real money...so he has various advantages and upgrades available to him in WvW and PvE.

[mmorpeegee]

Depends on the difference between green and purple gear. In other games the difference is pretty big, but it could be barely any different in GW2, and the advantage of purple stuff being mostly that it looks cool.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

There will be tiers of gear at each level, just like other games. Grey, green, blue, purple, whatever.

If it takes me nine hours in game to get enough gold to buy a purple item (or enough karma to get a purple item, or whatever), That whole nine hours the RMT player will have that purple item, because he can get it instantly...so he has a statistical advantage. Multiply that by every level until 80... he has an advantage pretty much the whole time.

It's not just armor stats either. if he is earning influence faster, he's going to get more rewards in the same amount of time. If he's earning experience faster or avoiding time / money sinks...he is going to level faster and be more powerful as well as have higher level gear compared to me.

He can also buy influence with coin he got from real money...so he has various advantages and upgrades available to him in WvW and PvE.

If it takes you 9 hours in game to get enough gold to buy a purple item, you'll be 6 levels higher. The gear that someone is shelling out real world cash to get is quickly going to become obsolete.

With the exception of WvW for the first couple days where players won't be level 80 and leveling more quickly might actually lead to an advantage, I really don't see the problem.

In PVE if a guy is leveling faster and not near you, it doesn't affect you at all. Even if he is near you and has all nicer stuff, the only thing he can do is make your life easier. He's not hurting you and he's not even hurting himself because even if he levels faster, he's still not outleveling any of the content.

I keep saying it, but the focus of the game should be on enjoying it, making friends, enjoying the gameplay and the story, not making it into a race. If someone does want to spend a bunch of money to get some kind of incremental advantage, even if it does mean they level faster, all that means is that they need to spend even more money replacing the stuff more quickly.

Any "firsts" in the game are going to be done by teams of maniacs literally playing 24 hours a day in shifts the first week. Anything that can be done will be done long before influence plays a role (because it takes 12 hours+ to even accomplish one thing) and before RMT plays a role (because there won't be any gear or gold to buy in the AH even if you did purchase gems because people will be blasting through levels and not playing the AH.

[Fozzik]

We're not going to see eye to eye on this.

If I end up buying it after release, I'll look you guys up.

[mmorpeegee]

I'll probably get it. But I also want http://mwomercs.com/

And ArcheAge. And there's some others out there I forgot the names of.

[Fozzik]

I'm sorry to not be able to rationally debate this...but I have to be honest...the "Everything is totally worthless and has no communal value so it's okay to sell everything." argument is just really pissing me off.

I can only describe that some things are valuable TO ME so many times. I wish people would stop telling me how I'm supposed to feel, and how I'm supposed to play and enjoy my games.

I get it. I'm not supposed to care about anybody else at all and I should just play my own little game and ignore the entire massively multiplayer community that is doing their own little things all around me. I get that I'm supposed to subscribe to the concept that "FUN" does not, and can not, include advancement or items with universal value in any way. I get that everything is super easy to get and therefore worthless, and that I shouldn't care about any of it...I should just have "fun". Because somehow "fun" is possible in a community RPG game centered around character development, where the development doesn't matter, the community doesn't matter, and nothing I acquire or do matters or means anything.

Obviously, I think it's a dumb argument. I think things will matter. I think some things will have value. I think some experiences in the game will be meaningful. Therefore...the cash shop is going to damage those things. I think the idea that it's okay to sell EVERYTHING because it's all worthless can't possibly be true, or nobody would play. Basically, I'm supposed to believe that there is no character advancement or significant rewards, because everything will come so easily and quickly that playing for it will be exactly the same as just buying it for cash. In short, the people arguing FOR this system are making the whole game sound horrible and unfun in order to justify the entire economy being a cash shop.

So I'll butt out, and just wait and see the details and how players end up feeling about playing. The proof is in the pudding.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

I'm sorry to not be able to rationally debate this...but I have to be honest...the "Everything is totally worthless and has no communal value so it's okay to sell everything." argument is just really pissing me off.

I can only describe that some things are valuable TO ME so many times. I wish people would stop telling me how I'm supposed to feel, and how I'm supposed to play and enjoy my games.

I get it. I'm not supposed to care about anybody else at all and I should just play my own little game and ignore the entire massively multiplayer community that is doing their own little things all around me. I get that I'm supposed to subscribe to the concept that "FUN" does not, and can not, include advancement or items with universal value in any way. I get that everything is super easy to get and therefore worthless, and that I shouldn't care about any of it...I should just have "fun". Because somehow "fun" is possible in a community RPG game centered around character development, where the development doesn't matter, the community doesn't matter, and nothing I acquire or do matters or means anything.

Obviously, I think it's a dumb argument. I think things will matter. I think some things will have value. I think some experiences in the game will be meaningful. Therefore...the cash shop is going to damage those things. I think the idea that it's okay to sell EVERYTHING because it's all worthless can't possibly be true, or nobody would play. Basically, I'm supposed to believe that there is no character advancement or significant rewards, because everything will come so easily and quickly that playing for it will be exactly the same as just buying it for cash. In short, the people arguing FOR this system are making the whole game sound horrible and unfun in order to justify the entire economy being a cash shop.

So I'll butt out, and just wait and see the details and how players end up feeling about playing. The proof is in the pudding.

To be honest, I think the problem is you're too emotionally invested.

We all know that there's no way to obtain karma except by working for it and there's no way to obtain dungeon tokens except by completing the dungeons, yet you make the argument that EVERYTHING is worthless.

There will undoubtedly be titles like Survivor / Cartographer as well which will require effort. And who knows, maybe people will be able to buy things which make them easier, just like people can buy XP boosting scrolls (with gold) in GW1.

I don't know why you're making these arguments about how "the community doesn't matter". What does that even mean? The entire purpose of the game is to get people playing together. I can meet some random guy in the world and if I like playing with them, be able to play with them again at the drop of a hat, regardless of level difference. The cash shop has absolutely nothing to do with that. Maybe you totally misunderstood me. What I'm saying is that playing the game matters. Whether someone who has an abundance of cash instead of free time chooses to buy some armor or a golem banker or (whatever is in the cash shop which we honestly don't even freaking know) doesn't really affect anything. In RL do you stop being friends with someone if you see they bought a pair of shoes you can't afford?

Things will still have value. Even if there are people who buy gems with RL money, they still need to convert them to gold to buy anything that is purchasable with gold. This means there's going to be an economy with an exchange rate. If anything, I'm excited about this system for the opposite reason, which is that I'll be able to convert the gold that I earn (as a side effect of playing the game for the enjoyment of playing it) into gems to be able to purchase additional character slots and such.

[Fozzik]

To be honest, I think the problem is you're too emotionally invested.


The system doesn't anger me NEARLY as much as the people defending it with the ridiculous "none of it matters so why do you care" argument.


We all know that there's no way to obtain karma except by working for it and there's no way to obtain dungeon tokens except by completing the dungeons, yet you make the argument that EVERYTHING is worthless.
There will very likely be karma boosts...and a lot of the same stuff you buy for karma can also be bought for gold. But that's neither here nor there (outside what I was really talking about).

You're kind of missing the point. What I'm ranting about is the argument that YOU and everyone else in favor of this system are using. I'm annoyed about the way you are justifying the cash shop economy.

What's bothering me is that you and other proponents of the system continue to argue that it's okay to sell everything in the entire economy for real money, because none of it matters. It's all worthless. Cosmetic or time-saving (which I don't consider worthless, but you seem to).

When I say, "X item will provide an advantage" ... you're response is, "no it won't, that's easy to get and everyone will have it super quick"

In other words, it has no worth within the game (it's a dime a dozen).

When I say, "That person can out-level me and get cool stuff first." or "That player can get awesome items instantly for cash that take me a long time to acquire"...You're response is, "Why would you care what other people are doing?"

In other words, I shouldn't care about anyone else...just myself and my own personal goals.

This is what's bothering me. The argument always involves telling me that everything in the economy (not everything in the game, important distinction) is worthless and that I shouldn't care about other players.


There will undoubtedly be titles like Survivor / Cartographer as well which will require effort. And who knows, maybe people will be able to buy things which make them easier, just like people can buy XP boosting scrolls (with gold) in GW1.
Again, I understand there will be non-tradeable things which will have in-game value because they require an investment of play time. I talked about it earlier on these boards (not sure if it's this thread), but I get it that there will be economy-insulated goals.

I'm talking about the cash shop and the in-game economy...which are one and the same.



I don't know why you're making these arguments about how "the community doesn't matter". What does that even mean?
I'm not. You are. You're telling me I shouldn't care about the other people in game, and that they have no effect on my play.

I WANT to care about other people. I want item acquisition and everything else in terms of the economy to be a social game play experience where I'm getting to know people and sharing their victories and achievements. It's the GW2 apologists who are saying that I shouldn't, because "who cares what other people are doing or how they are playing?"

I'm supposed to spend 100+ hours getting to max level, and another 100 hours getting just the right items and traits and whatever...because I like to play the game to get what I want. Then I'm supposed to completely ignore the guy next to me who has ALL THE SAME STUFF I do, but spent half the time in game (due to boosts and buying all his gear), doesn't care a shit or have any respect for the world or me. I'm just supposed to join a group with this guy and be his friend and completely ignore the massive disparity.


The entire purpose of the game is to get people playing together.
Clearly, it's not. The entire purpose of the game is to provide players with a way to have an entirely insulated, private experience. How you get your items...how much you play...how much money you decide to spend on skipping content...it's all just YOUR experience and doesn't affect anyone else. Right? That's the argument your using for why the cash shop is okay.


What I'm saying is that playing the game matters. Whether someone who has an abundance of cash instead of free time chooses to buy some armor or a golem banker or (whatever is in the cash shop which we honestly don't even freaking know) doesn't really affect anything. In RL do you stop being friends with someone if you see they bought a pair of shoes you can't afford?
This isn't real life. We're talking about playing a game. If i was playing a game with someone and saw they bought an advantage, I would stop playing with them.

You say that playing the game matters, and then in the very next sentence, you say it's totally fine for someone to pay cash INSTEAD of playing. *boggle* If playing the game is what matters, you shouldn't be able to bypass it or get all the rewards in the economy with cash.

I added bold to point out an example of the argument you are making which I referenced above. nothing affects anything. It's all insulated and meaningless. Nothing that anyone does matters to anyone else. See what's bothering me?


Things will still have value. Even if there are people who buy gems with RL money, they still need to convert them to gold to buy anything that is purchasable with gold. This means there's going to be an economy with an exchange rate. If anything, I'm excited about this system for the opposite reason, which is that I'll be able to convert the gold that I earn (as a side effect of playing the game for the enjoyment of playing it) into gems to be able to purchase additional character slots and such.It doesn't matter at all what the exchange rate is. People will amass hordes of in-game money using real life money. It will happen. But again...it won't matter, right? Because money is worthless, right?

Everyone loves to tout the fact that people who play the game will be able to buy cash shop items with in-game gold. I agree...that's neat. The problem is the other side of this whole thing. The fact that everything in the entire economy HAS to be worthless, because it's all for sale for real life money and if it was worth anything it would provide an advantage (which supposedly nothing does, according to the proponents).

If what I'm saying doesn't make sense, just ignore me at this point. I can't explain where I'm coming from any more clearly. Like I said, it's not the system that's pissing me off (I feel quite neutral about it right now and I just want to think about it and gather more facts)...it's the people defending it that are making me crazy.

[Fozzik]

The "cash = play time" argument is total crap. It's not a valid exchange.

You are taking one built-in measure of value (play time), claiming it's "unfair" because some folks don't play the game as much as other folks...and then trying to solve that unfairness by adding another, completely separate and much more unequal measure of value. It's like discovering a paper cut and trying to cure it by setting your hand on fire.

People without enough time to play can just pay to catch up. No they can't. Because people with money AND time to play are going to continue to be far ahead. You didn't solve the problem by adding money as a factor...you made the problem worse.

It also makes no sense, because play time is a completely valid way to measure value...because it involves the intrinsic function of the game... you're supposed to play. That's what it's there for. So time playing is just the natural state of existence for a game... you either spend time playing...or you aren't playing a game.

Money is the exact opposite. You are introducing something entirely outside what a game is...and using it to NOT play the game (which again, is what a game is for...playing).

The sob story about how some people are so much more busy and such great family men and so are unfairly put at a disadvantage is crap. People who play a lot very likely have family and jobs, too...and saying they love their kids less or must be unemployed because they choose to spend more time in game is ignorant and completely insulting.

The truth of it is that some people want to use the "I'm so busy and important and family-oriented" excuse in order to get instant gratification, because they just flat out dislike playing these games and want to get the shinies without the investment. It's a lack of respect for the game and other players.

If they really wanted or enjoyed playing, they'd make time. I've lost tremendous amounts of sleep playing these games...because my days are pretty damn full, but I value and enjoy the game play experience that these games offer...so I make time. Because of this, it pisses me off even more when someone feels they are entitled to keep up with me by just spending some money. You want to ride in this boat? Start paddling, sister...because that's what the rest of us are doing. Don't jump in the boat and say "I'm too important to paddle. take me to shore while I sit and look pretty"

[Fozzik]

I'll just say. "Sorry." up front.

I think I've got it out of my system for the time being. I'm going to go stand in the corner now.

[Loampounder]

I can only describe that some things are valuable TO ME so many times. I wish people would stop telling me how I'm supposed to feel, and how I'm supposed to play and enjoy my games.

I get it. I'm not supposed to care about anybody else at all and I should just play my own little game and ignore the entire massively multiplayer community that is doing their own little things all around me. I get that I'm supposed to subscribe to the concept that "FUN" does not, and can not, include advancement or items with universal value in any way. I get that everything is super easy to get and therefore worthless, and that I shouldn't care about any of it...I should just have "fun". Because somehow "fun" is possible in a community RPG game centered around character development, where the development doesn't matter, the community doesn't matter, and nothing I acquire or do matters or means anything.



I agree. I would get more enjoyment out of losing a challenging game of chess than winning in a short, easy game against an kindengardener. It's not a direct comparison, but how the game is played and what environment I play in matters.

[AsheMan]

It's a fundamental difference in gaming philosophies. It's not about emotional involvement.

Any cash injection into the game completely devalues everything within the game even if it doesn't directly impact me or my character. That's just the way I feel. When I buy a game, I want the complete game. I want everyone else to have the complete game. I want everyone to be on an even playing field. Your gear, stats, skills, titles, accomplishments, whatever, should be a direct result of your playing the game.

I have no problem with people having better gear, higher levels, prettier equipment, etc. so long as they earned it through their in-game achievements. I want the same opportunity to one day have that for myself through playing the game.

Microtransactions of any kind completely undermine that philosophy.

These days, I have to make some concessions to my philosophy if I dare want to play any game. That's why I have to tell myself that selling cosmetic stuff is okay, but in reality, it's not okay. It's just something I can put up with for the sake of wanting to play a game. What GW2 is planning on doing goes beyond that.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah I think it's an old school thing too. Even if it was only cosmetic stuff, it's still hard to stomach when you grew up playing stuff like EQ in which one of the main things that kept people hooked... was getting uber gear and looking cool. Like when I first saw a guy with a flaming sword (that Paladin sword from Upper Guk, I'm drawing a blank on its name).. Yeah that was pretty special and to me he was special.

I also remember, at the time that everyone was lusting after a full set of bronze armor (which wasn't easy to get back then), I got a piece of Rubicite armor which I auctioned for a fortune. I then used the cash to buy an entire set of steel plate, which on a Half Elf, made you look like Robocop! It wasn't that great actually, in terms of AC and stuff... but it was light weight and it looked so so cool.

This was so much fun, and most other people I knew were going through the same thing. My friend who was a Wizard was tired of the lame looking newbie robes, and seemed to spend his life trying and failing to get something that looked good and was different to everyone else. Eventually... after AGES, he finally showed up to our group one day in a really cool looking robe. He was over the moon :) And I was happy for him too.

In terms of stats, none of that stuff was a big deal, but it said a lot about the player. It said that they aren't just looking to join a grind group and whiz to level 50 in their newbie gear.. They wanted adventure, to explore, and to find nice gear along the way, some powerful and some just because it looked good.

That kind of thing is pretty much dead in games like this (and Rift, etc..). Not only do they generally give out good looking stuff way too early anyway, but when someone can end up looking like a hero just because they spent $20, it taints the whole experience.

Going back to Fozz's first about this stuff, about 6 months ago when he asked "What would we accept" in terms of RMT etc.. I still feel the same. I can live with people buying cosmetic stuff, even although I would much prefer that not to be the case... But with GW2, the paying for convenience stuff is a big concern to me. Buying XP potions and whatnot... In EQ, besides looking good and powerful and generally accomplished, the only other major thing that kept me so motivated to play, was to keep my character ahead of the curve. It's pretty vain I suppose, but I enjoyed it. Whenever anyone saw me, I was generally higher level than them, had gear that made them drool, and a lot of people knew me and would be glad to have me in their group. I think in games like GW2, that just wont happen. The best looking and most accomplished 'looking' people nowdays, are most likely going to just be people who spent money on whatever boost potions and uber stuff they can buy. And that's a pretty big downer for me. Still not sure if it will stop me from playing yet until I know the finer details, but I'm taking this game a lot less seriously now that I know all this.

[AsheMan]

The best looking and most accomplished 'looking' people nowdays, are most likely going to just be people who spent money on whatever boost potions and uber stuff they can buy.

And if they actually worked hard for their cool stuff then who would know or even care? The pride in accomplishing such a task is diminished when anyone can spend cash to have it. It may sound vain, but that was always part of the appeal of MMOs.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

The first thing I have to say is that we really need to not assume anything. We don't know that there will be karma boosts. We don't know there will be glory boosts except for the one time deal with the deluxe edition. Same thing with influence. The same thing goes for estimating time savings to achieve anything. We don't know if it's half the time, or 90% of the time, or 10% of the time.

My position is pretty simple. The primary thing I care about is power. I don't really care at all about cosmetics. If someone wants to buy a look then that's fine with me, especially if there are certain looks only obtainable through accomplishment. Think about games like WoW where the only way to get certain gear was raiding. Here it's hard dungeons. Other looks are more accessible.

I only care about temporal advantage to a degree. With quick leveling and sidekicking in PVE and full cooperation, I really just don't care if someone levels faster. I don't care if someone gets a guild bank faster. Or if they have more money to buy good gear right when they ding a level. This is a big point where we differ, I just don't care.

When it comes to convenience factors, the standard is whether I feel like I'm held back. Like the golem banker. I see this as only the most minor of bonuses. I'm not going to feel held back if I have to mail my crap to a mule or just teleport back to the bank. Other things that we don't know about I might feel more strongly, but seeing as how ArenaNet has said they don't want people to feel like they NEED to use the shop, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

To me, you're not going to know where or how anybody got their stuff except for maybe those dungeon pieces with unique looks. So I'm not going to look at anyone else like they're taking the easy road (or even if they did take the easy road, then they're only hurting themselves. Other MMOs are all about rushing to cap and running out of things to do, so if someone wants to do that in GW2, be my guest). I'm going to try to socialize with people, help them, make friends and group with them when I can. That's it. That's what I mean when I talk about community mattering.

It's obvious that we have a fundamental difference of opinion regarding what constitutes advantage and how much we care about that. So I'm probably just going to drop this discussion with this post.

[mmorpeegee]

And if they actually worked hard for their cool stuff then who would know or even care? The pride in accomplishing such a task is diminished when anyone can spend cash to have it. It may sound vain, but that was always part of the appeal of MMOs.

Exactly. I always felt like that was mainly what people were playing MMORPG's for.

That said, like I said before, I don't really see GW2 as that kind of game anyway. I don't really see it as a virtual world, full of other 'people', and I'm not going to care about my character, how it looks, and how powerful it is or how well respected it is. I am starting to just think of GW2 as a multiplayer FPS type game. All the characters are basically even, I'm not invested in anyone or anything, it's just all about running around and doing stuff and fighting with people.

I still would really love for a full on sandbox fantasy world experience some day, and I don't think this is one of those kinds of games, but I might still give it a go. I like lots of different kinds of games so I suspect I'll end up playing it just for the PVP, and then I'll be looking forward to ArcheAge for the other stuff.

[Fozzik]

The first thing I have to say is that we really need to not assume anything. We don't know that there will be karma boosts. We don't know there will be glory boosts except for the one time deal with the deluxe edition. Same thing with influence. The same thing goes for estimating time savings to achieve anything. We don't know if it's half the time, or 90% of the time, or 10% of the time.

I totally agree with you. I said it in my above posts...at this point I'm in "wait and see" mode.


My position is pretty simple. The primary thing I care about is power. I don't really care at all about cosmetics. If someone wants to buy a look then that's fine with me, especially if there are certain looks only obtainable through accomplishment. Think about games like WoW where the only way to get certain gear was raiding. Here it's hard dungeons. Other looks are more accessible.
On that we also agree. I don't particularly care if someone wants to pay for different colored pixels... if that's all it is.


I only care about temporal advantage to a degree. With quick leveling and sidekicking in PVE and full cooperation, I really just don't care if someone levels faster. I don't care if someone gets a guild bank faster. Or if they have more money to buy good gear right when they ding a level. This is a big point where we differ, I just don't care.
As you mentioned, this is where we start to differ. I think these games are supposed to be about shared experiences...players all having things in common because we're all playing by the same rules. We're all in the same boat, and everyone's rowing (going to make a blog post about this).


When it comes to convenience factors, the standard is whether I feel like I'm held back. Like the golem banker. I see this as only the most minor of bonuses. I'm not going to feel held back if I have to mail my crap to a mule or just teleport back to the bank. Other things that we don't know about I might feel more strongly, but seeing as how ArenaNet has said they don't want people to feel like they NEED to use the shop, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
To me, the standard is are we still playing by the same rules. The answer is likely that we aren't. I'm going to be grouping and interacting with people who played an entirely different way to get where they are...and it's very hard to relate to people in that situation. I played, they payed...basically there's no shared experience or common ground.

I think it's quite possible, even probable, that ArenaNet will have built little "pressures" into the game in a ton of different ways to make the cash shop more of a regular, pseudo-necessary thing. We'll have to wait and see.

I think we will know who played and who payed, because people who pay tend to have much less respect for the game. They just don't care about HOW you reach goals, and they don't see the importance of shared experiences. That's fundamentally different from me.

[Fozzik]

Made a new blog post about this...

http://www.thelastbastion.net/?p=406

[Fozzik]

*sigh*

Someone is leaking all the items they currently have in the cash shop. It's not good news to me. :(

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html?t=32319
Exp boost - 50% experience booster for one hour
Magic booster -Improve your chance to get rare items for one hour.
Crafting booster - improves your chance to get bonus exp for one hour
Karma booster - 20% karma boost for one hour (there goes all those items as prestige items)
Megaphone broadcast - ability to send one message to the entire server (holy crap that's a terrible idea)
Mystic key - key to unlock certain loot chests in the game (so items will be dropping that you can't unlock without paying real money)
Repair kit - yep...they put in the repair system just to sell items for cash
Bank portal - yep...you can permanently bypass the travel cost and time
Resurrection orb - get one free resurrection for cash
Loot bag - straight up buying a random in-game item
They are selling mini pets like baseball cards - packs of three randoms...so you'll be forced to buy a bunch of duplicates to get the full collection
Bag slots and bags -I'm NOT happy.

[Loampounder]

Yes, that it a bit more than just cosmetic.

[Fozzik]

The boosters clearly constitute a game play advantage, including removing Karma as an insulated currency (for prestige items). They have clearly already added several systems to the game specifically to sell cash shop items (making the game inconvenient to make money), and they are exploiting people with the RNG items for sale.

Add this to the trash loot cash shop economy (explained in my blog post) and the "play however you feel like, nobody cares" multi-player mentality...

I'm not feeling at all like buying this game now.

[AsheMan]

*sigh*

Someone is leaking all the items they currently have in the cash shop. It's not good news to me. :(

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html?t=32319
Exp boost - 50% experience booster for one hour
Magic booster -Improve your chance to get rare items for one hour.
Crafting booster - improves your chance to get bonus exp for one hour
Karma booster - 20% karma boost for one hour (there goes all those items as prestige items)
Megaphone broadcast - ability to send one message to the entire server (holy crap that's a terrible idea)
Mystic key - key to unlock certain loot chests in the game (so items will be dropping that you can't unlock without paying real money)
Repair kit - yep...they put in the repair system just to sell items for cash
Bank portal - yep...you can permanently bypass the travel cost and time
Resurrection orb - get one free resurrection for cash
Loot bag - straight up buying a random in-game item
They are selling mini pets like baseball cards - packs of three randoms...so you'll be forced to buy a bunch of duplicates to get the full collection
Bag slots and bags -I'm NOT happy.
There goes any thoughts of playing this game. Paid-keys to unlock certain chests? Loot bags? Increase chance at rare items? Exp/crafting/karma boosters?

No way. If you guys play, hopefully you enjoy it. The game itself sounded cool, but this goes way beyond acceptable.

[mmorpeegee]

They just lost me there too, that's WAY more than I would accept.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

*sigh*

Someone is leaking all the items they currently have in the cash shop. It's not good news to me. :(

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/cash-shop-items-leak-t32319.html?t=32319
Exp boost - 50% experience booster for one hour
Magic booster -Improve your chance to get rare items for one hour.
Crafting booster - improves your chance to get bonus exp for one hour
Karma booster - 20% karma boost for one hour (there goes all those items as prestige items)
Megaphone broadcast - ability to send one message to the entire server (holy crap that's a terrible idea)
Mystic key - key to unlock certain loot chests in the game (so items will be dropping that you can't unlock without paying real money)
Repair kit - yep...they put in the repair system just to sell items for cash
Bank portal - yep...you can permanently bypass the travel cost and time
Resurrection orb - get one free resurrection for cash
Loot bag - straight up buying a random in-game item
They are selling mini pets like baseball cards - packs of three randoms...so you'll be forced to buy a bunch of duplicates to get the full collection
Bag slots and bags -I'm NOT happy.

Someone said in the thread that gems are $5 for 400, which makes sense since a character slot is 800.

I still think this is much ado about very little. I know you're not going to agree with me.

One thing to keep in mind here is that gems are tradeable for gold. So all these things are available to everyone.

The bonuses for an hour really don't bother me, even the Karma one. (assuming that they don't stack in intensity). Getting something in 83% of the time is still an effort. And they only last for an hour, so unless someone has a ton of cash, their overall karma grind isn't 20% increased. And if someone really wants to focus on this, they can use the gold they're earning to buy the boosts even without real money. I simply don't see leveling faster in GW2 as an advantage (and most of the xp comes from DEs anyway). Same thing with rare drops in a game which isn't vertical progression. The crafting one is a little sketchy but also seems like a waste of money when you blow through all your mats 5 minutes into your hour, not to mention that crafting, like every other system in this game, is about eliminating grind.

I like the Megaphone broadcast. I used to love those duel messages from EQ when they got meta. "Anangrymob has defeated Bradmcquaid in a duel to the death!"

Mystic Key seems like one of those things specifically designed so that people will use gold to buy gems to purchase. And if they're anything like the chests in GW1, you're going to get some random thing you don't need and which in any case won't be any more powerful than anything else.

The repair kit and the bank portal are both available in bundles of 5 to purchase, so they're one time things, not permanent.

The minipet bag will no doubt encourage trading to get the ones you need.

As far as bag slots go, again I see them as an item you buy with gold.

To be honest, some of this stuff... This being a Vanguard based forum, I'm sure you're all on board with paying $15 a month every month. Based on the amount it costs for bandwidth and server rent anymore, that subscription is completely unjustifiable (it's more like $1 per person per month). These games still do have significant development costs though (GW2 has ~270 employees for 5 years). Complaining about a $5 bag slot when we're finally getting a AAA game with no subscription (and you can still get that bag slot with in game gold?). I know you're arguing about the principle of the thing and the "advantages" (in quotes for a reason) that people would get from having additional gold they can trade their real money for, but I'm willing to cut ArenaNet a lot of slack for not forcing me to pay $180 per year just to play it at all.

[Vordox]

I am a bit of a purist like Fozz and I get what he is trying to say. I understand his dismay and know exactly how he feels.

Heres the the deal (if you want to be honest) the way it was and has been since EQ1 even. There was a cash for items and Powerlevel all the way back in EQ1. Players seriously got rich off that game literally. Every game that exists has a RMT factor hidden or open, it exists.

I can't even blame the gaming Companies for this. It really started from players exploits and or farming. Companies decided why let the players get all that money. (In EQ some things sold for literally thousands of dollars). I really am not sure what these companies were supposed to do other than what they are doing.

Does what GW2 is doing with their cash for boosts seem overpowered not really out of what goes on in ALL MMO's today. RMT has even integrated into MMO's there is no way in hell anyone can convince me otherwise that RMT's in non P2P games aren't giving kickbacks to the games they RMT from. They are at every MMO event with VIP passes so go figure. Think about it.

Me like Fozz would love to play in a MMO where actual play and skill actually mean something and community is not trivialized because people cry because they have to actually interact with people. Unfortunately it's a case of the "
Steamed crab syndrome" When one crab is about to get out of the steaming pot the others pull him back down to die. What we have here is rather than preventing exploitation of MMO's they have decided to let it happen because there is money to be made. Doesn't matter if it kills the game as long as they make as much as they can in that first year to move on to the next cash pot.

This is why MMO's are failing community wise. Most are easily soloable intentionally, if you don't get to know your community you can buy all the goodies you want without the stigma there used to be. I mean it is just you right and your conscience.

I have increasingly become less interested in MMO's for the above reasons. They have become all to much about the commercialization than actual real play. I mean when I get more fun out of "angry birds" and "bejeweled" than MMO's there is definitely something wrong with the genre!

To summarize what GW2 is doing with item shop has been done everywhere in EVERY game just behind doors. Does this make it right HELL NO! But to say you can't play an MMO that has that means you might as well move on from MMO's period. MMO's have been corrupted and it started with a certain player base, Not the companies themselves.

I have learned to accept the fact that I will never play another EQ or EQOA or even a VG type game ever again. I have had the same ole battles with the newer gaming generation and they have been successfully indoctrinated (even young developers) that a game like me and Fozz want is one that is no longer viable. So call it old age, or just tired of the fight for better gaming. I have hung up my sword of truth and exchanged it for the dagger of "Heres why Your Game Suxorz" lol.

I will get GW2 just for the innovation I see they have. I certainly don't have my hopes up for any long term play but maybe I will be surprised. It does warrant a purchase so I will buy it.

In closing I get the ANGER Fozz don't apologize but after the anger comes acceptance or possibly apathy with the whole industry. I just accept it grudgingly lol. I guess because there is the eternal optimist living inside me.

[Fozzik]

I could explain why I think the items are over the line, but I'm not going to change your mind, Forest. For me, they are WAY over the line, and considering the other stuff I talked about in my bog, it's too much.

It appears that The Secret World is going to have the exact same kind of cash shop...with a sub fee added on. So I likely will completely skip that game, too.

Here's hoping Copernicus is different, otherwise I'm totally done with the genre.

EDIT: Vordox... I understand that there will always be RMT...but having it be illegal is different from condoning it, which is different from designing your whole game around it. I'd rather play games that are not designed around milking every last dollar out of the player base in every conceivable sneaky way. In games where RMT was illegal, people got banned for it all the time, so it generally stayed pretty underground. A lot of folks actually played, and rewards had real value in prestige and in the game's economy. So clearly this is quite different.

The idea should be trying to stop it the best you can, and force it to the fringes so people can enjoy the game on a level playing field. Not say "If you cant' beat them, join them", shrug, and create whole games just to sell cash shop items.

I literally have ZERO power in this genre to make it the way I want, except my wallet. it's the only vote I have. If I buy the game, I am voting for more of the same. I can't do that...even if the genre never turns around, I still can't.

[Vordox]

Actually Fozz it didn't stay underground you just never involved yourself so you didn't know and most people never bothered to mention it due to a stigma that used to be with it. I actually sold a "two horned ripper" magesword that no longer dropped for $200 real cash. I wouldn't have sold it at all and had many bids for $500 to $800 but he was a friend of mine and it really was not a good stat weapon anyway.Plus some of the guys I knew were also bedridden and they found a way to support themselves gaming. I knew of many that just sat in Freeport whispering things for sale cash only when they weren't out farming.

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Yeah some were banned yet some are allowed as long as they get kick backs and depending on the size. I hardly condone this because it really does destroy integrity to a game but you are right game developers gave up when they realized they could make more profit. go figure. Like I said the RMT guys always have VIP passes at every Game expo and event proving they are not as hated by these companies as they pretend to be.

I have paid to play before and have no problem if I'm entertained but I rarely last long with those kind of games. The only reason I will make the initial buy is to look at the new innovation it possess. I didn't buy RIFT because it was nothing new for me at all and I'm not supporting the same old WoWish rerun genre.I would not support GW2 if it didn't appeal to me on some level. I'm not going all collector though thats for sure lol.

Sad as it is I know guilds in WoW that charge people for raid runs lol. You gotta be pretty retarded if you cant get in a decent guild and get loots there but hey theres a sucker born everyday.

I agree with you though Fozz and support your non support. Yet I see me getting at least my $60 bucks of enjoyment out of it. If I didn't I wouldn't. I will know my first day of beta for sure.

[AsheMan]

The only way I can feasibly see myself buying this game is if I get invited to the beta and find out it's an absolute blast to play. Given the track record of nearly all MMOs, I doubt it'll be a blast.

[Vordox]

I just read over the cash shop blog. I have have my daughter visiting me so have been AFK with her and my Birthday festivities the past week and a half.

Anyway GW2 looks like Runes of Magic set up without the overpowered armor BS. They make gems available for gold so if joe smoe doesn't want to buy cash shop money, he can farm gold to buy it. I did that a lot in Runes of Magic and it was easy to do if you had the time. Yet the endgame PvP gear could literally cost a grand or two and I wasn't about to spend my days farming at endgame 24/7 to be competitive,that's extreme.

Nothing I have seen yet has been over the top. I would like to know if loot drops have a possibility of dropping cash shop potions etc.. That would be nice to have a small chance to get some boosts from drops. If not I still think it really is not that bad. I guess you could look at it like this I wont buy gems with real cash but I can farm for a hour a day sell/auction items for gold then buy gems. If you are so casual you don't have the time, you can fork out the dough if it is that important.

I just really Don't want a Runes Of Magic game where YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to pay at end game. I don't see that here yet.

[Fozzik]

I've calmed down completely now. I had some beer last night and talked about things with my wife. She's uncomfortable with a lot of it, too... the idea of playing in the same world with people who are using a different set of rules. "Pay to cheat" is the phrase she feels best describes what ArenaNet is doing. I think of it more along the lines of "Pay to play by your own rules"...but I totally understand where she's coming from. "Cheating" just isn't really the same thing as it used to be...at least not in video games...and it's clearly become much more acceptable to most people. It really just means making adjustments to the rules to have your own, personal fun...and that's a very uncomfortable thing for some of us when we're talking about a shared world and community and game.

I will say though, my initial reaction was very strongly negative due to my long history in this genre and my own personal opinions on how games should be played, and I'm willing to admit that it's possible I'm being a bit hasty with my judgements. Not everyone has to ascribe to my personal sense of integrity and fair play.

I see things through the perspective of a fairly hardcore, purist, old-school MMORPG player...one who really hasn't ever found another gaming home after EQ. My wife is quite similar in that regard. We spent time in various games over the years...but never really found another home.

I think about that, and it's really kind of sad...It's been more than 10 years of me blustering away on the internet, having strong opinions, and thinking deep thoughts about this genre...for what? I'm sort of taking a hard look in the mirror right now, and I'm thinking that it's possible I'm taking this stuff WAY too seriously.

What has 10 years of being Don Quixote on the internet gotten me? Other than a pretty impressive pile of words typed out so people can clearly see the rationale behind my fairly irrational stance on video games. :rolleyes:

*sigh* I really don't know exactly what I'm saying. Just admitting that I'm still considering things. My blog posts and posts here are really an important catharsis for me when I get smacked with something I don't expect. I feel a very strong need to mash it out in text on my computer screen and get it off my chest.

My wife says she thinks maybe I should try to pursue a game journalism job. I certainly have the writing chops, I believe, and I do love video games as a passtime. The problem with me writing about games professionally is my tendency to snap to judgements in an emotional way...and typing things out is my way of sort of examining my own thoughts from a distance. Sometimes getting all the evil out...exorcising the demons...is the only way I can clear my head to get a fresh perspective. I'm not sure it would be a good idea if a lot of people were reading my verbal chaff as I bang my head against each new injustice. Although I guess I could just stick to reviews, and avoid straight opinion pieces...:confused:

I was taking a look at all available games in the genre this morning, just to kind of get a 10,000-foot view of things since I've been so focused on individual games for a year or two. What did I find? Well... a lot of free to play games and Copernicus, basically. I'm willing to bet that Copernicus will also feature some kind of variable payment scheme and cash shop as well. There's just no avoiding it at this point.

A couple of the upcoming free to play games caught my eye...like Otherland (http://otherland.gamigo.com/). I like the really diverse settings and the fact that it's all based in a virtual world within a virtual world. I also thought it was quite interesting that you'd be able to build your own virtual areas using raw material you loot in the world. I also took a bit of a look at DC Universe online...due to it winning game of the year from PC gamer magazine (who cares, right?). DCUO is also free to play basically.

Then I started thinking.... What the hell am I doing? I'm taking a semi-serious look at a F2P game, right after I just completely rejected GW2 - basically for being free to play. A game that by every account except the business model should be the best MMORPG in a long time, or at least that's what I believed a couple months ago. Is it possible that I totally rejected a really good game simply because of one thing I didn't like? Is it possible to deal with the faults, avoid the things I don't agree with, and still finally have fun in a game again?

Am I like George from Seinfeld... doomed to never have a long-term relationship because I always sabatoge things by finding a fault and allowing it to completely ruin everything?

Is that what I've been doing for ten years?

I really don't know. It is an extremely uncomfortable thing to re-examine feelings like this.

I guess I'm just a glacially slow thinker. I'm well aware that I tend to be brick-wall stubborn once I've made up my mind about something. I apologize again for subjecting everyone to the masses of raw junk that tends to pour out of me when I'm coping.

Maybe things aren't as game-breaking bad as I thought. Maybe ArenaNet isn't completely evil, just because I felt so mislead by their marketing over the last two years. Maybe I'm a complete fool for building a false image in my head of certain aspects of a game in development again...after I so clearly should have learned my lesson with Vanguard. Maybe having a big group of friends all of the same mind playing a game together is enough...and not everyone, everywhere has to play by our rules.

*puts head down on desk*

[Vordox]

You are a fabulous writer Fozz I have always enjoyed you saying for me what I couldnt seem to put coherently into words.

I personally think there are a lot of us who want a home but what they keep pounding in to me anyway is we are no longer a commercially viable audience.
I think RIFT was my last try at trying to get through to people that no longer have the intelligence,patience,or social skills to play a game like we want. I chalk it up to society and the dumbing down of society in general.

I have decided that I will no longer look for THE GAME I will just look for what I find interesting. GW2 is interesting and I have no idea if it will be tons of fun or a new Home and guess what? It really doesn't have to be. It's like reading a great book and going to see it in the movies in the back of your mind you know you probably might be disappointed but it just might be as good. That is my new perspective. Otherwise I just have to quit playing MMO's all together. I don't think I can do that. MMO's are a part of me nothing can change that.

I think we are just (to put it plainly) getting old. I think in at least my day we were more socially connected and team oriented.I know I played outside as a kid from morning to night playing team sports with the neighbors. Now today we are connected by a text msg and we barely talk to our neighbors except to say hello occasionally. I think if you add this with the newest gamers you can't help but get the mindset of "I can say what I want to you because I wont get my face punched in" lol. Sad but it is what it is. If they actually have to depend on someone it is a hassle it has to be "now" and "right now" yet they still are bored after they get it.::shrug::

Glad you calmed down though.It's nice out today go out and enjoy the day reassess what matters, and realize in the end fun doesn't really have a set pattern it just happens sometimes.

[AsheMan]

Then I started thinking.... What the hell am I doing? I'm taking a semi-serious look at a F2P game, right after I just completely rejected GW2 - basically for being free to play. A game that by every account except the business model should be the best MMORPG in a long time, or at least that's what I believed a couple months ago. Is it possible that I totally rejected a really good game simply because of one thing I didn't like? Is it possible to deal with the faults, avoid the things I don't agree with, and still finally have fun in a game again?


One major difference is that those games truly are free-to-play. Now you have a major MMO that is going to feature a fully functioning cash shop that is very similar to those free-to-play games, except GW2 is not free-to-play. It has a substantial base price of $60. I know there are plenty of cash shop differences that can be pointed out to explain the free vs. $60 base price, but I felt it worth pointing out.

[Fozzik]

Thanks, Vordox. It's good to be reminded once in a while that I'm not crazy (or not TOO crazy), and not totally alone in being an old-timer.


One major difference is that those games truly are free-to-play. Now you have a major MMO that is going to feature a fully functioning cash shop that is very similar to those free-to-play games, except GW2 is not free-to-play. It has a substantial base price of $60. I know there are plenty of cash shop differences that can be pointed out to explain the free vs. $60 base price, but I felt it worth pointing out.

Very true.

It does offer the entire game for that price, though...other than some town clothes that appear to be sold in the cash shop...with no restrictions on access (with the possible exception of bank and bag space). Theoretically, other than a few clothing looks, I could literally do and see and own everything in the game without ever touching a single gem. The question is how much pressure they will put on players through subtle game mechanics to try and get them to buy gems... I really have no idea on that.

SOE, by comparison...In DCUO they limit the number of text messages you can send, the amount of money you can have, whether you can start guilds, whether you can trade with other players, the mail system, and they are much more restrictive with bank space and character slots.

No wonder I hate SOE...and no wonder people seem to be more comfortable with what ArenaNet is doing. I had no idea things had gotten quite that restrictive in other games (I've stayed away from these business models all together until now).


So it seems the big question is...if I were to grudgingly accept the business model as it is and buy GW2... would I feel pain or frustration because of not using the shop, or would it be in my face (either through other players or the UI) and make my play less enjoyable? I'm not sure how I know that. Maybe if some of you guys play, you could give me an honest assessment of what the pressures are like (both social and game design-related) in relation to the cash shop and gem market.

[perfect]

...SOE, by comparison...In DCUO they limit the number of text messages you can send, the amount of money you can have, whether you can start guilds, whether you can trade with other players, the mail system, and they are much more restrictive with bank space and character slots....

All the SOE games are like that. The new EQ 'free' (http://www.everquest.com/free/) gives you four races (Human, Gnome, Barbarian, and Erudite) and four classes (Wizard, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue). That's it. (Side note: They removed Corpse Runs). Turbine does a bit better with LotRO (http://www.lotro.com/free.php?tier=details) (Asheman is going to jump me) but it's still pretty restrictive.

Keep in mind that for things like Bags and Bag Slots (your specifically mentioned items), you can buy them with in-game Gold. Still don't have to use Gems.

I am just so stoked that it appears that player skill and not gear will be the determining factor in winning or losing.

[Fozzik]

All the SOE games are like that. The new EQ 'free' (http://www.everquest.com/free/) gives you four races (Human, Gnome, Barbarian, and Erudite) and four classes (Wizard, Warrior, Cleric, Rogue). That's it. (Side note: They removed Corpse Runs). Turbine does a bit better with LotRO (http://www.lotro.com/free.php?tier=details) (Asheman is going to jump me) but it's still pretty restrictive.

Keep in mind that for things like Bags and Bag Slots (your specifically mentioned items), you can buy them with in-game Gold. Still don't have to use Gems.

I am just so stoked that it appears that player skill and not gear will be the determining factor in winning or losing.

I haven't seen where they've said you'll be able to get bags or bags slots within the game without using gems, but if that's the case, that's good.

They do seem to be taking care of PvP players really well.

[perfect]

I haven't seen where they've said you'll be able to get bags or bags slots within the game without using gems, but if that's the case, that's good.

They do seem to be taking care of PvP players really well.

You can buy Gems with in-game Gold. I misspoke. I did not mean "...without using gems...", I meant, "...without buying gems....".

It's a PvP game. Sure, there is PvE (there always in in PvP games [DAoC, WAR, Planetside]) but it's a PvP game (just like the first one). They'd better take care of the PvPers.

[Fozzik]

If you are using gems, they are being bought with real money (no other way to get gems). If you buy a gem with in-game gold, someone else already paid ArenaNet RL cash for it. So if your goal is to not provide any money to the shop...then you can't touch gems period.

[perfect]

If you are using gems, they are being bought with real money (no other way to get gems). If you buy a gem with in-game gold, someone else already paid ArenaNet RL cash for it. So if your goal is to not provide any money to the shop...then you can't touch gems period.

Not my goal. My goal is to win. I will purchase Gems (I must have Vanity Pets. It's a moral imperative (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLZ5cn_apHg)).

I was just saying that you can get Bags and Bag Slots without buying Gems, if you so desire. I'm rolling with it as a 'if I can spend less than $15 a month on Gems, then I am ahead of the game' cause, really, if they provided it for 'free' and charged a Sub, how would that be different?

[mmorpeegee]

You are a fabulous writer Fozz I have always enjoyed you saying for me what I couldnt seem to put coherently into words.

I personally think there are a lot of us who want a home but what they keep pounding in to me anyway is we are no longer a commercially viable audience.
I think RIFT was my last try at trying to get through to people that no longer have the intelligence,patience,or social skills to play a game like we want. I chalk it up to society and the dumbing down of society in general.

I have decided that I will no longer look for THE GAME I will just look for what I find interesting. GW2 is interesting and I have no idea if it will be tons of fun or a new Home and guess what? It really doesn't have to be. It's like reading a great book and going to see it in the movies in the back of your mind you know you probably might be disappointed but it just might be as good. That is my new perspective. Otherwise I just have to quit playing MMO's all together. I don't think I can do that. MMO's are a part of me nothing can change that.

I think we are just (to put it plainly) getting old. I think in at least my day we were more socially connected and team oriented.I know I played outside as a kid from morning to night playing team sports with the neighbors. Now today we are connected by a text msg and we barely talk to our neighbors except to say hello occasionally. I think if you add this with the newest gamers you can't help but get the mindset of "I can say what I want to you because I wont get my face punched in" lol. Sad but it is what it is. If they actually have to depend on someone it is a hassle it has to be "now" and "right now" yet they still are bored after they get it.::shrug::

Glad you calmed down though.It's nice out today go out and enjoy the day reassess what matters, and realize in the end fun doesn't really have a set pattern it just happens sometimes.


I agree with all that 100%. I think some day we will get a the game we always dreamt of. Unfortunately I think that day is nowhere in sight, for now. ArcheAge looks like a good stepping stone though, but it's not "the one" I have been hoping for. The games industry is so huge now, I think even niche audiences will eventually be big enough to support some really good games. So we'll get there in the end, but it might take a few years, or it might take 15 years :/

[Fozzik]

I'm going to go ride my bike and not think about video games at all. :D

[mmorpeegee]

To be honest, I've been annoyed at gaming since about 2004... EQ2 was my first major disappointment and caused me to rethink gaming. Hidden & Dangerous 2 was as well, which was a similar time. And then pretty much every year since, has been 95% disappointment, and just a few good ones amongst them. So few that it makes me question whether I should even bother continuing being a gamer, each year.

Vanguard was a massive blow too. And nowdays I seem to live in a world where gameplay, quality, challenge, and the love that seemed to go in to the golden oldie games, has all been replaced in favor of flashy graphics and gigantic marketing budgets. So instead of a new Baldur's Gate we got Dragon Age 2 which practically plays itself. Instead of System Shock 3 we got Bioshock which is all style over substance. Instead of cutting edge open world shooters, pioneered by the likes of the Delta Force games, get stuff like Crysis which looks breathtaking but is incredibly generic and unoriginal and short too. And any small company who tries to fill the gaps with quality indie type games, just quickly gets bought up by EA and then dismantled and absorbed.

It's such a crappy vapid and shallow industry now, full of nothing but sequels and cash ins, with zero challenge so anyone can play it, and all the guts ripped out so they can be sold later for extra, as DLC or expansions, or microtransactions from the 'shop'.

Luckily for me, even though I only get about 1 or 2 really good games each year, that is 'just' enough for me to play them over and over and over, and keep me going until the next year comes along with 1 or 2 more. For example at the moment on my computer, I just have a few games installed which I play over and over:

Supreme Commander Forged Alliance (One of the best RTS's ever, I suppose, from 2007)

Microprose MTG (with Manalink mod). (from 1997)

Temple of Elemental Evil (bought from GoG.com) (2003)

Everquest (to play Shards of Dalaya / Project 99) (1999)

and the only modern game:
Arma 2 (2009)

[Vordox]

I'm going to go ride my bike and not think about video games at all. :D

See now you are working my routine! Except I'm making likker and gardening :)

Sometimes just working other hobbies can focus you and move you in a clearer direction.

Yeah Fozz there are some old timers that still enjoy a challenge you aren't crazy just to intelligent for the masses of lemmings lol.

I hope it is not 15 years until we get a good game again Mmorpeegee I mean I'm getting pretty old now lol.

You can farm gold and buy gems easy enough without buying anything I have done it in P2P before. I also enjoy farming so it is no issue for me.

All in all I think I will enjoy GW2 for the initial cash spent from where it goes after that is up to them.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

The way I see it, cheating is going to happen no matter what. In WoW, not only are there 3rd party gold sellers, people are always going to try to game the system. I remember seeing people buy their way into raids to get gear for thousands of gold. They run in first, die, and the guild kills the boss with 24 people.

I don't think cash shops are going away either. If a company can quickly make a costume but then sell a bunch of them for $10, that's too good to pass up. No shop is ever going to make everyone happy, but ideally they make a shop which makes the most people happy (or grudingly accept it). People generally don't mind cash shops if they're completely cosmetic and they don't devalue anything in the actual game.

I'm not trying to restart the debate, but in light of Fozzik's post, I would like to explore it again with the notion of purity really off the table (short of not playing it, which is still your prerogative).

The way I see the GW2 cash shop, it's like it's designed to be mostly cosmetic. I don't even see it as allowing "cheating" but just trying to appeal to people who have more money than brains.

Take the experience boost for instance. It costs 150 gems and raises xp from kills by 50% for one hour. First, I've heard that it's the DEs themselves which give most of the XP. So if XP breakdown is 80% DE/20% killing, then this boost is really only 10% or so.

But really, think about it. The game itself costs $60 and has no subscription and it takes ~100 hours to reach level cap. Even IF this boost were a pure 50% increase, boosting would knock it down to 66 hours. That means you need 66 boosts at 150 gems ($5 per 400 gems) = $123.75, more than double the cost of the game, just to shave the most time you could off leveling one toon. And the reality will be much much more money for a fraction of that time.

And what has this faster leveling bought you? You still get sidekicked down in lower level zones in PVE, and in structured PVP everyone is sidekicked up to 80 and has everything unlocked. At best you can enjoy a few days of advantage in WvW (except you'll be going up against other servers with a proportional amount of other people who have also boosted) before everyone hits 80. It might have advantages if you were going for a Survivor title, and that's a little odious, but there were XP scrolls in GW1 (just for in game gold). And here you can still trade gold for gems to get the boost if it's what's important to you.

If anything, GW2 will be better capable of keeping people away from the real prestige gear because it will be much harder to kill a boss with 4/5 than with 24/25 (and no vertical progression to trivialize it). And Structured PVP is completely balanced and there's no boost at all except for the one time Glory infusion with the deluxe edition. People can use the cash shop to give real money to get crafting mats or random rare drop armor, but people could do that in any other game already by using a gold seller. The differences here are that ArenaNet gets the money instead of a 3rd party and players who don't want to spend the cash can be the ones purchasing the gems so they can unlock things without spending. There's also much less chance of people getting hacked if they're working with ArenaNet instead of a sketchy 3rd party.

I understand your counterarguments and the idea of fairness and devaluing accomplishments. If it's still a dealbreaker, it's still a dealbreaker and that's fine, I'll stop trying to convince you. But to me what this comes down to is that it allows people to spend what seems like it might be a ridiculous amount of money to either "level faster than you" (for very little benefit) or to "look the way they want to look faster than you looking the way you want to look" (but only for certain looks).

I almost feel like I'm trying to turn you all to the dark side, but if you can live with what little benefit there really is, it's not that bad a system at all. And not that it's really any comfort, but as Fozzik pointed out, Freemium and true P2W games are a LOT worse.

[Vordox]

Oh I'm with you Forest I have seen the worst pay to plays around GW2 is no where close to them. It is a nice balance plus if you don't want to pay for gems you can easily farm some gold. I'm a purist too but I have never been in a game where there wasn't some form of exploitation RMT,Pay to raid, item selling, going on. I frowned on it in some ways though I knew it existed.

Not rehashing what I already wrote here. I will say I will be playing GW2 and Forest I answered your last email but you never responded back about your mailing list? Did you decide I was a real Douche and dropped me? lol

[mmorpeegee]

I hope it is not 15 years until we get a good game again Mmorpeegee I mean I'm getting pretty old now lol.

Ditto on both counts :P

You never know though. It could happen any time. I see promising stuff happening already. Minecraft was a big deal to me. I actually don't enjoy it myself, but I love that it was an indie game that was made by one guy (mostly), and it became really popular because the public and media got on board and hyped it, and he released it all by himself. Now he has like $50 million to play around with..

The internet might aid piracy, but it also aids people to self publish and self distribute! So hopefully other companies will come along and do that too. There are quite a lot of little companies that are succeeding like that, and then they become not-so-little companies that can make bigger and better games.

And it just takes one to make the kind of game we love and it becomes popular... and then lots more will pop up trying to do the same :)

[Fozzik]

@Forrest -
I know the mechanics and systems pretty well. Been following the game as a fairly excited fan for two years. ;)

I'm well aware of how they have minimized the potential for anything to provide an advantage, and how the cash shop items are very much targeted at people who don't really look carefully at what it is they are actually buying. I recognize that much of our mentality of fairness and inequality comes from games with completely different advancement mechanics.

I thought the design was fairly genius, and I've described in excruciating detail some of the reasons why (my series of "spiritual successor" articles and some of the others I've written on the game). I just hope adding this huge lump of crap (cash shop economy) onto the top won't squash all the good stuff.

It is very tough to swallow them keeping the business model under wraps all this time, and I do feel the hype was pretty well spun to make it look like something it wasn't. I blame myself for falling for it (at least a little), and I'm sure being mad at myself is probably half the problem. They got me again, those bastards *shakes fist*. I never learn. "Just a cosmetic MT shop" my ass.

Adding this new information paints their whole design in an entirely different light in terms of their motivations...but it's quite possible that it doesn't change the positive aspects, just sort of coexists with them. I feel like that was their intention, to almost provide several different games side-by-side without any of them stepping on the toes of the other. (PvP game, F2P / cash shop dolly dress-up game, and a new and innovative spin on the traditional MMORPG)

I'll definitely be interested to hear what people who play the beta have to say, once they can talk about it (or once they send me PMs :D ). If they manage to not pressure the player and the cash shop truly is "on the side" as it were, and not spoiling things for players who don't want to take part, who knows.

I actually did do some conversions and look at the prices and exchange rates a bit myself. I think I understand what they are trying to do to maintain the value of gold in the game, but I don't think there's any way to know for sure what this whole thing will do until they open the gate and let it run. Things are high enough priced where going overboard would truly be expensive...so hopefully it will be more of an every once in a while thing for people and will make even less difference. We'll see.

[mmorpeegee]

Hmm the prices are the worst part about it in my opinion. :( As I said a few months ago, I was pretty hardcore in to Magic The Gathering Online for a while, and it works in pretty much the same way as games like this. By the end I of my first year, I had spent probably the equivalent of about $300-400 or so. And that's when I quit for good.

I managed to get about $100 back by selling all my belongings when I quit, so not the end of the world, compared to a years MMO subscription (which I wasn't paying in that time) but still, it's a pretty significant chunk of cash. My issue is that there are a lot of people who for whatever reason, have no problem spending a LOT of money, even two or three times what I used to spend, and these are people who you are competing with.

I found a link to this GW2 shop and it's pretty scary. Its about 5 euros for 400 gems, and one extra character slot is 800 gems, so that's about a 10euro in one pop. Then a bigger bag, it's another 300 which is almost another £5/euro. Cooks outfit another tenner. Stack of just 5 portal back to town clickies - another £1 per stack of 5. Then there's all the other crap like XP and Karma boosts and repair kits etc.

That's significant money, especially if you end up needing to spent it monthly, or even weekly. You gotta wonder, just how gimped are you without spending that? How bad is your bag space unless you pay? How long and boring AND REGULAR are your journeys back to town? And if you refuse to spend real money, how much boring grinding would you have to do to buy this stuff? And that's not even going in to what you need to spend to keep competitive in PVP, these are all just anti tedium necessities.

And then as with my Magic Online game, once the company gets giddy with all the cash they are making, are they too going to add totally overpowered stuff to the shop at high prices? And once everyone has already bought the game and is already hooked and invested in it, they are forced to decide to either pay through the nose to continue, or face the only other option of quitting and saying goodbye to everything you've already put in.

I can't judge this stuff unless I know all the details. I wanna see proof that all gear you can buy with gold is only cosmetic, and that the game isn't a big PITA chore to play without these shop items, or that players will have so much gold that you can live happily without needing to buy anything.

Once I know those details, I can decide if I'm going to play or not. But I definitely wont be buying it without finding that stuff out, and it being good news.

[Fozzik]

That's significant money, especially if you end up needing to spent it monthly, or even weekly. You gotta wonder, just how gimped are you without spending that? How bad is your bag space unless you pay? How long and boring AND REGULAR are your journeys back to town? And if you refuse to spend real money, how much boring grinding would you have to do to buy this stuff? And that's not even going in to what you need to spend to keep competitive in PVP, these are all just anti tedium necessities.

And then as with my Magic Online game, once the company gets giddy with all the cash they are making, are they too going to add totally overpowered stuff to the shop at high prices? And once everyone has already bought the game and is already hooked and invested in it, they are forced to decide to either pay through the nose to continue, or face the only other option of quitting and saying goodbye to everything you've already put in.

I can't judge this stuff unless I know all the details. I wanna see proof that all gear you can buy with gold is only cosmetic, and that the game isn't a big PITA chore to play without these shop items, or that players will have so much gold that you can live happily without needing to buy anything.

Once I know those details, I can decide if I'm going to play or not. But I definitely wont be buying it without finding that stuff out, and it being good news.

I'm in the same boat. I know what they SAID, and I know what their supposed intentions are in terms of the cash shop not being needed at all. If they follow through on what they've said, you should be able to play without ever using it and not notice much difference.

Remains to be seen.

At least during the leveling process, there will be more powerful gear available in the auction house I'm guessing (because people will level faster and get it through drops or crafting or however). The idea is that at max level, it should be relatively easy to get max-stat gear, and then you are set. Supposedly, nothing anyone can get by any means at all will be any more powerful. All gear will strictly provide different stats for different builds...and cosmetic variety.

I doubt there would be any need to level faster for people like us (no need for boosts)...we're used to slower leveling so I'm guessing regular speed in GW2 would feel plenty fast.

All of the item type things (the keys, the dyes, etc) are supposed to also drop in the game. we'll have to see what the drop rates are like.

[mmorpeegee]

Yep.

Well hopefully one of us will get in to beta before release and we can work out how it will be. I still wanna play, and I'm willing to give some leaway on this stuff too, but I just wouldn't want to play only to find that it's too tedious without me buying stuff every 5 minutes. If this was SOE, you just know that they would have done stuff like purposely made every journey take 100 real life hours, and you get 1 bag slot etc :P

[ForestWhitakerEye]

@Forrest -
I know the mechanics and systems pretty well. Been following the game as a fairly excited fan for two years. ;)

I'm well aware of how they have minimized the potential for anything to provide an advantage, and how the cash shop items are very much targeted at people who don't really look carefully at what it is they are actually buying. I recognize that much of our mentality of fairness and inequality comes from games with completely different advancement mechanics.

I thought the design was fairly genius, and I've described in excruciating detail some of the reasons why (my series of "spiritual successor" articles and some of the others I've written on the game). I just hope adding this huge lump of crap (cash shop economy) onto the top won't squash all the good stuff.

It is very tough to swallow them keeping the business model under wraps all this time, and I do feel the hype was pretty well spun to make it look like something it wasn't. I blame myself for falling for it (at least a little), and I'm sure being mad at myself is probably half the problem. They got me again, those bastards *shakes fist*. I never learn. "Just a cosmetic MT shop" my ass.

<snip to save space>

I wasn't really replying to you specifically when discussing the mechanics, but everybody who said they were concerned to the point where they might not play the game at all.

As far as ArenaNet bait and switching us here, I go back to this correction by ArenaNet back in October 2010. http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/10/21/guild-wars-2-to-have-dlc-microtransactions/

As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,)...that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.”

Maybe I'm guilty of putting too positive a spin on this kind of thing as well, or just basing it off the GW1 cash shop which is largely cosmetic. But the truth is that the PVP unlock packs are pay to skip (though introduced a year after the final expansion), and the mercenary heroes are actually a slight bit of power. We like to think it's all costumes and account services but the truth is that there's more to it.

Though I still think that perhaps the reason I did put so positive a spin on it is because I still to this day don't see a reason to spend money. To me, GW2 is all about the journey, not the destination. I just scoffed at the idea of XP potions, like what is the point. I still scoff (unless you're trying for Survivor). As long as the gold->gem conversion rate is decent so I can unlock bags without extreme amounts of gold farming, and eventually more and more character slots, then I'm fine.


@mmorpeegee I was going to double quote this post but it's too long. Just to clarify. The game has teleportation back to any waypoint you've unlocked for a small fee. And the human city has something like 13 waypoints inside of it (it's really big). The Portal they're selling is being able to access your bank from anywhere. As far as I can tell, it's a really minor convenience item, same as letting you repair anywhere (there are repairers out in the world).

Structured PVP also has everything unlocked and everyone boosted to level 80. This is important to me. It doesn't really bother me if someone pays to level faster in the purely cooperative PVE world when the arena-style matches are completely balanced.

I agree that the whole thing is a slippery slope and that we should be concerned. I wish I had more concrete evidence that things aren't going to go P2W but I have faith it won't. I suspect that this shop is more aggressive due to the increased development costs (ArenaNet is 4x larger or so), but I hope that the lukewarm reaction coupled with their own policy against "unfair advantage" will keep things in check.

[Fozzik]

I think the whole time, on the wiki and elsewhere, they were pretty heavily implying that the shop would be strictly cosmetic. I know they used pretty ambiguous weasel words, and in hindsight they didn't technically lie... but the whole wiki change a month ago where all of a sudden the idea of "convenience" items started showing up and pay-to-skip turned out to be available...I think it's clear they were trying to let a lot of people operate under a false impression.

It's neither here nor there at this point. Now we know. Like I said, I blame myself just as much...despite maintaining a bit of distance, I did allow myself to build a rather favorable picture of things without full facts.

The "map travel" costs (you don't have to go to a waypoint, just open your map and click on a waypoint to travel there) and the repair costs are obviously not going to be expensive in-game...and with the price of the pay-to-skip items I doubt most people are going to buy them very often. I can't imagine paying per use to access my bank, that seems moronic.

Despite me feeling like they added those little inconveniences like repair costs just so they could sell a way to skip them, I have to be willing to admit that "traditional" MMORPGs have those same kinds of goldsinks, even without the cash shop convenience items.

I wouldn't have been pissed if this was a subscription game and there had been repair costs...I actually like some of the inconveniences because it provides a tiny bit of realism in the virtual world. I'm one of the crazy people who wishes they brought back needing to eat in order to avoid starving, having to practice to learn to swim, learn languages to talk to other races, and needing to carry arrows you made or bought in order to use a bow. I like that stuff. So...I begrudgingly admit that having a bit of cost on map travel and repairs don't constitute anything outside what a non-cash shop MMORPG would do.

If people decide to pay 50 cents every time to access their bank (rather than spending a couple minutes and a few copper in-game), or they want to spend like 80 cents each time they repair, rather than a few copper and a couple minutes...I doubt I would have much in common with those people anyway. That seems like a pretty bad deal to me, but then again I actually LIKE playing MMORPGs. *shrug*

[Fozzik]

Just in case anyone's interested...I did up all the conversions for prices.

These are the beta prices, so may very well change.

400 gems = 4.80 Euros = $6.34 US
Each gem = 2 cents US

Account services:
Character slot - $16

In-game items:
12 slot bag - $6 (available as drops?)
Loot bag (random item) - 1 - $1.40
5 - $6 ($1.20 each)
10 -$11 ($1.10 each)
Bank tab - $12 (available for purchase in-game?)
Bag slot - $8 (available for purchase in-game?)

Pay to access:
Mystic key - $2.50 each (also available as drops?)

Pay to speed up: (may drop in-game)
Crafting boost / exp boost - $3 for one hour 50% boost
Karma boost - $1.50 for one hour 10% boost
Magic boost (find rare items) - $3 for one hour 10% boost

Pay to skip: (may drop in-game)
Bank Portal - 1 use - 70 cents each
5 use - 50 cents each ($2.50)
Instant repair kit - 1 use - $1.40 each
5 use - $1.20 each ($6)
Perfect salvage kit - 1 use - 70 cents each
5 use - 50 cents each ($2.50)
Resurrection Orb - $5 each


Cosmetics:
Dye box (three random dyes) - $3
Transmutation stone - $1
Higher level T-stone - $2
Magic plant food (grows dye plants instantly) - $2.40
Megaphone broadcast - $1.50 each use
Minipet pack - 3 random minis - $6

Non-stat clothing:
Carnival ringmaster's hat - $4
Cook's outfit - $14
Pirate outfit - $14
Scholar's outfit - $6

[Fozzik]

I had a thought this morning.

Someone could basically support GW2 by simply playing, and allowing someone else to pay their subscription fee for them.

Maybe others already though about this...but let's say, for the sake of argument, that I wanted to pay ArenaNet a subscription fee to help fund continued development of the game, like I have with many other MMORPGs.

I could simply play the game, earn gold like I would in any MMORPG, and then buy some gems every month.

My demand on gems each month would lead to someone supplying those gems by spending real life cash. So that person would be paying my sub fee...and I would get to buy this privilege (someone else paying my sub fee) using in-game gold.

Interesting.

My only major issue with this concept is that I think I would have a hard time wanting any of the cash shop stuff enough to actually buy it. Things are kind of expensive, and not all that great in my eyes. Why would I want to speed up a game that I already think is probably too fast?

I was also thinking that it really seems like they've created three separate games here, for totally different types of players, and attempted to put them together in a way where no one game can have much of an affect on the others.

You've got a PvP game, a casual MMORPG, and a cash shop F2P MMO dolly dress-up sort of game.

Clearly the PvP game is pretty well insulated...but I do feel the MMORPG is somewhat affected by the F2P game. In the MMORPG, they have to set up an economy and an item acquisition system where everything's easy to get and vertical progression has an easy-to-reach ceiling, because that's the only way to insulate the MMORPG from the F2P game (i.e. avoid cash from unbalancing things).

The MMORPG is already what I would consider "too fast", in terms of progression and acquisition. This also is a side-effect of needing to avoid the economy unbalancing the experience. Like I mentioned with the little inconveniences creating more realism in the virtual world, I almost wish that they could have made the level curve longer and advancement a little more challenging. Basically, the cash shop provides a choice between fast, and faster. I can't really complain about that, because I wish things were even a little slower in the MMORPG game, if that makes sense.

I think people that will spend money in order to avoid or shorten their play (the ones playing the F2P game) would probably not be people I would relate to in the first place. I won't really be missing out on community...because I can't see myself having much in common in terms of gaming with someone who just wants to buy all the rewards instead of playing to earn them.

For those folks who choose to buy things simply as a way to support ArenaNet, and not really because they actually want or need any of the cash shop items... I almost wish ArenaNet would provide something that those people would deem worthwhile to spend money on. I'm just not sure what it could be that wouldn't create an imbalance or barrier between the two games.

I'm rambling. I don't know if this stuff will make sense to anyone else. I'm just continuing to think out loud.

[AsheMan]

My only major issue with this concept is that I think I would have a hard time wanting any of the cash shop stuff enough to actually buy it. Things are kind of expensive, and not all that great in my eyes. Why would I want to speed up a game that I already think is probably too fast?

It wouldn't be too hard. You'd probably start with the permanent unlocks like character slots and bags.

[Fozzik]

Maybe... but I don't tend to use many character slots, and I'd rather get bags and that sort of thing in-game.

Besides, after a few months, I would have all of those it was possible to have. I still think my favorite idea is if they offered a special server that was locked off from the others and completely MT-free. I'd pay a monthly sub for that.

Maybe I could just buy gems and sit on them in protest. Amass a huge fortune of them under my bed (virtual bed).

[ForestWhitakerEye]

I had a thought this morning.

Someone could basically support GW2 by simply playing, and allowing someone else to pay their subscription fee for them.

Maybe others already though about this...but let's say, for the sake of argument, that I wanted to pay ArenaNet a subscription fee to help fund continued development of the game, like I have with many other MMORPGs.

I could simply play the game, earn gold like I would in any MMORPG, and then buy some gems every month.

My demand on gems each month would lead to someone supplying those gems by spending real life cash. So that person would be paying my sub fee...and I would get to buy this privilege (someone else paying my sub fee) using in-game gold.

Interesting.

My only major issue with this concept is that I think I would have a hard time wanting any of the cash shop stuff enough to actually buy it. Things are kind of expensive, and not all that great in my eyes. Why would I want to speed up a game that I already think is probably too fast?

I was also thinking that it really seems like they've created three separate games here, for totally different types of players, and attempted to put them together in a way where no one game can have much of an affect on the others.

You've got a PvP game, a casual MMORPG, and a cash shop F2P MMO dolly dress-up sort of game.

Clearly the PvP game is pretty well insulated...but I do feel the MMORPG is somewhat affected by the F2P game. In the MMORPG, they have to set up an economy and an item acquisition system where everything's easy to get and vertical progression has an easy-to-reach ceiling, because that's the only way to insulate the MMORPG from the F2P game (i.e. avoid cash from unbalancing things).

The MMORPG is already what I would consider "too fast", in terms of progression and acquisition. This also is a side-effect of needing to avoid the economy unbalancing the experience. Like I mentioned with the little inconveniences creating more realism in the virtual world, I almost wish that they could have made the level curve longer and advancement a little more challenging. Basically, the cash shop provides a choice between fast, and faster. I can't really complain about that, because I wish things were even a little slower in the MMORPG game, if that makes sense.

I think people that will spend money in order to avoid or shorten their play (the ones playing the F2P game) would probably not be people I would relate to in the first place. I won't really be missing out on community...because I can't see myself having much in common in terms of gaming with someone who just wants to buy all the rewards instead of playing to earn them.

For those folks who choose to buy things simply as a way to support ArenaNet, and not really because they actually want or need any of the cash shop items... I almost wish ArenaNet would provide something that those people would deem worthwhile to spend money on. I'm just not sure what it could be that wouldn't create an imbalance or barrier between the two games.

I'm rambling. I don't know if this stuff will make sense to anyone else. I'm just continuing to think out loud.

I've never played EVE but they have a system much like the one you're describing, where you have to pay your subscription in one currency that is purchasable with RL money, but you can buy that currency with the in-game currency.


If people haven't read this article, it's really interesting. It's about how much and what kind of revenue Puzzle Pirates makes.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23970

They earn 70k per month from subscriptions and 230k from F2P. The mind blowing thing to me is that for the F2P side, the average revenue per player is $3. But the average revenue per PAYING user is $50. There's over 5000 people each averaging $50 a month on Puzzle Pirates while the rest of the people pay nothing. $50 PER MONTH....on PUZZLE PIRATES!?!?!?!?!?!?! :eek:

I can't even imagine what some people would be willing to pay per month for a true AAA MMO.

When you take into account that these types of people exist (and that it's something like 5% of them if it drops "avg 50 paying" down to "avg 3 total") then GW2's cash shop is pretty genius. The people who don't want to pay anything don't need to pay anything, but at the same time there's really no limit to what you can spend if you want to spend.

I'm also not sure that there's any way to tell who is who. I wonder if the XP boost is an actual buff that someone can see on you. If not, how would you even tell unless someone made a point of having a matching set of armor while leveling or something.

[mmorpeegee]

Been seeing some discussion about this stuff on other sites and some beta leaks. The game got defended pretty well by people in beta and I'm feeling happier about it now! People said that the stuff you can buy with real money is basically completely worthless and a total waste of money, and only really for people with money to burn.

They said that the XP boost potions only give a slight boost for an hour, and it only affects mobs you kill, not the quest XP which is the bulk of your progression. And progression is apparently pretty fast anyway, so most people can't see why you would even bother buying XP pots. I suppose it's for people who have already leveled a few characters and you just want to make your 5th alt go a bit faster.

As for bags, they say that you are very rarely low on bag space anyway, but if you do want more space, you can just get them from drops and quests and you can just buy bigger ones from vendors and the auction house.

Apparently gold is not hard to come by so you can usually just buy whatever you want.

The same goes for Karma, you get about 20 from an event, so even a 20% boost from a potion is only going to give you about 24 - so someone said they would rather just spend another 5 minutes on an event instead of spending 5 Euros or whatever. Makes sense to me.

Repairs - there are repair guys in every town you control and the major cities, and travel is pretty quick and easy, so there is not much of a problem with that.

Crafting - far easier than other games, not like WoW etc.. where you have to make lots of crap before you raise your skills. In GW2 you can just make whatever you want, as long as you have the materials.

Gear - all gear is purely cosmetic up until max level. And imbalances in PVP are not a concern either because everyone gets boosted when they PVP so everyone is pretty much even, no matter what.

The only one people apparently have shown concern about is the magic find boost, but again, people say that they seem to get plenty of weapons / armor / crafting stuff, so they never feel like they even need a boost. One guy said that by level 8, his warrior had every weapon he could use, just by looting everything he came across.

Apparently their claims of everyone always being on a level playing field is pretty true and accurate. Again, this makes me think of the game more like a competitive shooter type experience, rather than a traditional MMO, but that's ok for me. And at least it's not pay 2 win! Still no garantee they dont go full on evil some time in the future, but so far so good I think.



I can't even imagine what some people would be willing to pay per month for a true AAA MMO.

I reckon I could do two or three or even four times what I used to spend on EverQuest. But it would have to be good... and I don't like feeling like I'm being wreckless with my money so I would think long and hard about it :p But yeah... I would REALLY like a killer MMO. Tired of all these little theme park button bashers.

[Fozzik]

@Forrest -
That's unbelievable that people spend that kind of money. I'm guessing it would be a little harder to spend that much with GW2, just because of the limited things that are available.

It's quite frustrating that the business model is so effective...but obviously any company would have a difficult time turning it down if crazy people are willing to spend $50 a month on nothing.

@mmo -
Sounds about like what I'm expecting, in terms of things in the shop providing no advantage, and most everything being pretty universally easy to get. I wonder whether the average F2P person's monthly spending will be lower in a game like this, due to the items in the cash shop only being of very limited use and limited effectiveness. It's very good to hear that stuff like bags are dropping and for sale just like in any other MMORPG. It sounds like I would have a really hard time finding anything worth spending gems on, if I were to buy some. Then again...I'm not one of the crazy pay-to-not-play people. I guess they have their reasons.

I was thinking about previous MMORPGs, and the things I've always considered perfectly acceptable. All part of the re-examination process I'm doing. I've never had a problem playing a game that had raiding content for an endgame, despite how I feel about that (I think the raid treadmills are a cop-out and I hate the bait and switch). I've been fine playing a game where a decent chunk of the population is basically playing a different game than I am. They get additional zones that I don't get to see, they get loot that I'll never get (and is quite a bit more powerful than my loot), and I never group with them, in fact, I very rarely have any contact with them at all. Raiders are pretty much playing a whole different game by different rules.

And I was totally okay with that scenario... :confused:

GW2 is sort of the same situation. There will be a segment of the player base who use the cash shop extensively and buy their way through as much as they can. In a way, they are just like the raiders in previous MMOs...they are playing a different game than me. What's different in this case is that they won't be getting any exclusive content or loot (as far as we know right now). So in some ways, it's better. There's no content or loot I'll be missing out on in GW2 simply because of my play style.

In short, I think it's possible for different play style segments to exist in the same MMORPG. They have for a long time. I know this is probably "DUH!" Obvious" stuff to most people, but GW2's business model really made it difficult for me to keep perspective on everything. ArenaNet is just changing things up on the traditional MMORPG, and including the F2P play style and leaving out the raiding folks.

[mmorpeegee]

I reckon they would make far more with a subscription, but then, I don't know how many people they would lose either. It seems like a lot of people when I read the internet, who say they would never pay an MMO with a subscription. But then, it never bothered WoW!

Personally I don't mind as long as it doesn't get out of hand with these so called 'micro' transactions - which can easily add up to be far more than a sub. It seems GW2 has managed to stay pretty fair, but you just know that most companies wouldn't do that. If this was an SOE game they would be thinking...

http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/6/6a/Mr_Burns_evil.gif

[Fozzik]

I think this video is quite helpful -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Kx7o7CRoDXc

[Fozzik]

Leaks from this weekend's beta are saying that some changes have been made -

Instant Repair Canister does not work in dungeons.

Loot bag Removed.

Megaphone removed

12 Slot Bag removed.


So things appear to still be in flux for sure. It would seem that ArenaNet is really listening to feedback and handling this carefully.

[AsheMan]

You guys do a good job at making it sound like it's not that big of a deal. The more I read from you all, the closer I become to saying, "To hell with it." It hurts me to do that because I've spent over a decade of MMO gaming combating the RMT business either through avoidance of companies that endorse it or filing reports on bots, farmers, sellers, and cheaters. It's pretty disheartening to see it so fully embraced by the companies themselves once they figured out how to get a piece of the pie.

I think my beta experience (if I get in) will play a big role in swaying me one way or another. It will also depend on what other games are out around the time GW2 releases.

[Fozzik]

I totally understand and relate to your thinking, Ashe. But maybe it really isn't so bad, the way GW2 has it implemented. We'll see, I suppose.

I would be starting to feel a bit better if they've removed the megaphone and loot bag permanently, it's a step in the right direction. I've also heard from the beta that it's fairly easy to craft 12, 16, and 20 slot containers... so buying a 12 slot bag really is pretty worthless (especially considering it's $6).

I think part of the error in my own thinking is that I have a hard time understanding how they could sell things that are totally useless (less powerful, or a pointless time saver, etc.). I figure they MUST be in some way valuable in terms of game play, otherwise nobody is going to buy them, and that makes me think the cash shop will be unbalancing.

The thing is though, the people who they are targeting with these cash shop items think about these games in a totally different way than I do, and approach their play differently. I see buying a 12 slot bag for $6 as a complete rip-off and nowhere near worth it when I can easily craft a better bag in-game. These F2P cash shop people probably think it's a good deal (for some unknown reason).

If you think about it in that context...it's quite possible that nothing in the shop will have any affect on our play, and it might all end up seeming like a complete waste of money for literally no benefits...because to us (traditional MMORPG players), the stuff in the shop is totally worthless in terms of how we play these games. I guess there are a few exceptions, like the character slots...those are pretty useful to most anyone, but I don't think anyone is really complaining about those.

One man's trash is another man's treasure...

[mmorpeegee]

Leaks from this weekend's beta are saying that some changes have been made -

Instant Repair Canister does not work in dungeons.

Loot bag Removed.

Megaphone removed

12 Slot Bag removed.


So things appear to still be in flux for sure. It would seem that ArenaNet is really listening to feedback and handling this carefully.

OMG wasn't expecting that. I'm 100% back on board with this game now. Gimme! \o/

[Fozzik]

Some more specific reassurances from the ArenaNet devs -
http://i.imgur.com/Pw6CQ.png

Very good to finally hear some specifics...and it's all good news. There are only a couple of issues remaining that I would like to see cleared up...that of being able to buy influence for real money and get those guild bonuses in WvW...and the mystic keys. If those last to concerns are addressed, I think I'm now feeling much better about the system.

[AsheMan]

Some more specific reassurances from the ArenaNet devs -
http://i.imgur.com/Pw6CQ.png


A couple concerns that I had from reading that:

... we have also evened the playing field by allowing players who wish to spend time and not money to purchase everything from the shop by using time played to earn gold, which they can change into gems to buy everything from the character slots, costumes, and more for simply playing the game.While this is true, given they said players could exchange gold for gems and vice versa, it sounded like anyone wanting to exchange gold for gems would be at the mercy of the person who spent money on gems. They would decide the exchange rates, which has the potential to be unfair. I would prefer if there were a standard system, like an NPC, where I could go exchange 1k gold for 1 gem or cash shop items have a price of 50 gems or 5k gold. I don't like a system where the cash folks set the price. One day a person may trade me 1k gold for 1 gem, but the next day only people wanting 5k gold for 1 gem are around. It's open for price manipulation, which puts the advantage in the hands of the cash shop folks. Maybe they've thought of that and will make dual prices, that would be best in my opinion.

He also mentioned several times about the skill packs being sold in GW1, and while we didn't see skill packs in the recent cash shop leak, according to his post, there most certainly will be skill packs for sale. I don't like that idea, but nothing I can do about it.

[Fozzik]

Cash folks won't be setting the price (at least that's not how it works right now). It's a straight up auction house system. You put your gems up for the price you want to sell them...and everyone else puts their gems up as well. People will undercut each others' prices constantly until an equilibrium is reached between the value of gold and the value of gems (the perceived value of the things in the shop). That balance will shift up and down over time depending on what's available in the shop, the number of gems for sale, and the value of gold within the game (i.e. if they don't have enough gold sinks, gold will begin to loose value and the price of gems will rise). It's imperative on ArenaNet that they balance the in-game gold economy and keep it steady, because it directly impacts their bottom line.

Because it's a single global auction house for all servers, there's little chance of individuals messing with this system in anything but an extremely short-term way. Buyers and sellers will be able to look at the price history and recent transactions for gems and all other items in the auction house.

In terms of the skill packs in GW1...that was a very specific set of circumstances where they were trying to fix a problem several years after release. It's quite a different system (specifically PvP) in GW2, which they designed to avoid that same problem from ever happening. So...if they were to use the same rationale about skill packs for both games, they will never need to be sold in GW2 because the problem was already solved with initial design.

I also hope they never sell skills...so far the cash shop leaks haven't showed anything like that.

[AsheMan]

In terms of the skill packs in GW1...that was a very specific set of circumstances where they were trying to fix a problem several years after release. It's quite a different system (specifically PvP) in GW2, which they designed to avoid that same problem from ever happening. So...if they were to use the same rationale about skill packs for both games, they will never need to be sold in GW2 because the problem was already solved with initial design.

I also hope they never sell skills...so far the cash shop leaks haven't showed anything like that.

I had the impression that he was essentially saying they would not sell skill packs in the PVP setting, but it seemed almost certain that they would offer PVE skills packs.

[Fozzik]

I guess we won't really know until they reveal the whole thing.

[perfect]

I had the impression that he was essentially saying they would not sell skill packs in the PVP setting, but it seemed almost certain that they would offer PVE skills packs.

That's not how I read it.

I read it as 'we had XYZ issue in GW that was caused by a time sink. This issue affected the balance of play (a sharp line between the haves and have nots) and we used the CS to fix it by allowing those who can't spend the time to, instead, spend money to level the playing field.'

[perfect]

Found a chart. Charty charty charty.

2552

[Fozzik]

use gallery to stop breaking forums! :cry:

That chart is from the video I linked earlier.

[mmorpeegee]

First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women.

[Fozzik]

That's the best part of the chart. The WEEEEMON!

If anyone is interested in further reading on the subject of GW2's cash shop...here's another whole thread full of crap I typed...

http://www.38watch.com/forums/showthread.php?1386-Guild-wars-2/page9

Discussion of RMT starts a few posts down on that page...and goes on and on and on. :D

[Vordox]

Seriously Fozzik I worry about your multiple game forum posting addiction. You might need an intervention. lol :)

[mmorpeegee]

You might need an intervention. lol :)

Or to finally find a game worth playing :D

[Fozzik]

It's the sound the keys make when I type... clicky click clack... I'm addicted. When I don't type super-long posts every day, I start to hear the voices instead.

And yes, a game worth playing would really help.

[mmorpeegee]

I've been up all night playing System Shock 2. Best game ever. And also Forged Alliance, best RTS ever. And a bit of EQ Project 99, best MMO ever. Just a shame I have to wipe the cobwebs off the only stuff I am interested in playing.

[dabble]

I've been up all night playing System Shock 2. Best game ever. And also Forged Alliance, best RTS ever. And a bit of EQ Project 99, best MMO ever. Just a shame I have to wipe the cobwebs off the only stuff I am interested in playing.

System Shock 2 is amazing! The most atmospheric game I think I've ever played. Shodan, Xerxes, the superbly acted voice logs. I'm going to dust it off.

[mmorpeegee]

Yeah it's incredible :) I'm up to deck three now, in those creepy ass cargo bays, searching amongst the crates and watching my back for robot patrollers, the twisted former crew, and psychotic test monkeys.

[ForestWhitakerEye]

System Shock 2 seems to be the #1 most requested game for them to do on the gog.com wishlist. After all this praise I'm looking forward to checking it out when they get around to it.

[mmorpeegee]

It's cool. The most mindblowing thing about it though, was how ahead of its time it was. Everyone was so busy playing games like Quake and stuff, nice as they are... and then out of nowhere these System Shock games came along which were so advanced, even most games today don't do half of it. They had a variety of grenades, frag, emp, proximity mines, and a whole bunch of weapons and you had to quickly switch between armor piercing bullets or anti-personel, there is hacking and research puzzles to solve and lots of different roles you can play, you can technically replay it three times with almost a completely different 'class' kind of like an RPG. And each of those can be built in different ways too. It's creepy as hell, and got a really good story, great level design, etc. Kind of like the Baldur's Gate of the FPS world.

Pretty much a life-affirming game for me :P Definitely in my top 5 of all time.