The Drawing Board

[Skarlath]

I call into being the "Coalition Of Community Orientated Creatively Organised Colloquium Order"... or "COCOCOCO" for short. ::tries in vain to hold a serious expression::


A number of you Forum-Frequenters and Vanguard-Vets have said that you may be interested in the formation of an "alternative" guild to Silky Venom, for those who are not able to meet Silky Venom Guild's stringent requirements, but still want to have a guild formed directly from the community.

Over the time I have been following Vanguard, it has not just been the eyecandy and gameplay promises that have kept me interested - for so long the community was absolutely fantastic. Lots of fantastic, interesting people just chatting away. To be honest, I can't think of a better group to spend my time in Vanguard with. If we can just pull together a bunch of dedicated gamers who want to succeed as a guild, have a great time doing it, but aren't looking for extremely rigid rules and inflexible playtimes.

Perhaps we could be considered a "Core" guild, as opposed to a "Hardcore" guild. Im sure Brad wouldn't mind us borrowing his label. :D

Some of you may ask, "Why not just join another guild? Each of them contain members of the community." A valid question to be sure.

The answer is simply uniting under a same flag. If we all went off and joined separate guilds then we would be fragmented, despite sharing the same guild ideal. That of having a guild community rooted in forum communities and working on existing friendships. Part of it is also that if we join other guilds, there is the matter of who is in charge. Those of us who would like to stick together would no doubt like to do it with a little control over how things work.

So, enough of that. We have some things to think about.

Firstly, those of you who would be interested in something like these - can you step forward and let us know who you are? :) This doesn't mean you are commiting to anything just yet, merely showing your interest. :)

So a couple more questions. Those of you who step forward, what is it that you are looking for in your guild? What do you think are the priorities?

Another thing we must think about is leaders. Who will lead us? Is this something we want to decide on later down the line after the leaders amongst us have shown themselves through dedication?

Finally, if this is to work I would like to see it done nicely. With style. Is there anyone interested in joining who is an accomplished web designer/artist? If so, please do make yourself known! :)

So I'll stop typing short paragraphs and let you guys say a thing or two now. :)

Edit:

Those who have expressed an interest so far:

Skarlath
Loampounder
Shiver
Ieranii
Belisarius
Synjiin
Valerius
Boogenhagen
Dreamer
Jaymend
Raijyn
Eliphup
Darydale
Razorwire
Scarlet
Vampero
Finch

(For those too lazy to count, that's 17 of us so far)

Remember, just expressing an interest doesn't mean you are commited to anything, so if you have something to say - go ahead and say it. :)

[Loampounder]

I am interested, mainly because, being in the community, I have all ready gone through the "hey we interacted and we mesh well" test I need to be involved in any guild. To add to Skar's point of why not another guild, I would need to go through the process of discussing things to see if I mesh well, and why repeat that?

And another reason (to continue the theme of small paragraphs) is that it's hard to hold a prerlease guild togther and build relationships outside of the game. If the guild is based on people who are rpoven to want to discuss VG and gaming in a forum structure, then a better guild can be formed and stay together.

I do think it would help if this guild was more of an offshoot or sister guild of Silky Venom. Moving to another site will reduce population and exposure as well as move us away from some of the personalities we like. We need to feed off of our strengths not try to start down a new path.

I see it more as a service of the Silk Venom (forum) community. If making a megastructure that is an internet community was not the intention of Silky Venom (guild), then we should get clarification and rethink things.

My first idea is something like a Silky Core group, that is more of an ingame community rather than a raiding guild. Perhaps we could be useful to the SV raiders in that sense - we build the village while they are out bringing home the bacon?

I do not have experience with graphics nor am I dedicated enough to be a guild leader. Certainly could be an officer who helps holds things together. Yeah, more like a vizier... or a vicar, maybe a viceroy... hmmm

My main interest is exploring the game with people I have met before. Another great benefit is that, as I explore, I could come to a well-used forum to discuss details (you know, when I am suppose to be doing work). It would be great to eventually build a community with involved people who are proven to stay with the community.

Getting back to priorities, since Vanguard will have more of a community involvement that EQ, it would be great to have people who could flesh out the community. Crafters need to come together to build a boat, and that will take organization. Crafters will be stuck in the basement while raiders camp the dragon; they will need someplace to go back to when done crafting/raiding. I play more of a well-rounded game so I am less about priorities and more about having a community there to enable things you want to do (be involved in a playertown, collect resources for people, get pick-up groups, etc.)

Just to bring my ramblings around full circle, would a sister-guild (or daughter-guild) of SV be unwarranted?

[Belisarius]

I proposed an idea like this a while back (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1897)

Oloh kinda shot it down, but sometimes needs must. So before Oloh says "No way" remind him that it's his fault for providing a great place for this community to form. :pirate:

I met several people at Fanguard who were also interested in a "core" guild formed around the SV community so I think there is at least 10 people right now that I know of who want in.

As far as a Guild Leader, I have no exp in this regard but am willing to give it a go, but ya'll hafta call me Duke Belisarius.:ninja:

[Loampounder]

So, if you want to make a guild on the same server, and you guys are cool and we hang out in groups or for certain raids, then that is ok, and hell, you we would probably even help hosting your guild forums and the like, but when push comes to shove, it just wont be a priority to have a "farm guild" or a guild alliance for crafting, diplomacy, etc.
Unless there was something else, Oloh did not squash the idea of another guild, only an alliance, farm kind of thing. I did not mean to imply that, either, only some informal "live on the same forum" kind of thing. I understand that the uberboys would be too busy to deal with us, but an independant guild may be too much work to get going and maintain six months before release. We would need to be able to stand on our own and not imply a promotion into SV.

Silky Pansies or Silky Panties?

The idea that the awesome community built here will turn into only a hardcore raid group seems strange.

I feel sorry for the guys in SV if Oloh sticks to that raid schedule AND thinks people will max out crafting skills. Easy on the whip, now.

[Skarlath]

It would be very unfair on Silky Venom Guild to expect them to run a more casual side to the guild. That's simply not the guild they wish to be, and we shouldn't ask them to pay any less attention to their primary objectives.

It may well be that we maintain good relations, spend time together or down the line run a town together, but none of this should be assumed or asked for. We must create this guild on our own accord, and anything that Silky Venom Guild has to do with us from there on is up to how well our guilds get along and interact. They might decide that they prefer to play completely separately, or they might like grouping with us from time to time. It's something we'll have to play by ear once the game launches.

That said, Silky Venom Fansite is no doubt going to be a community hub for Vanguard discussions. The guild we form would be from those who enjoy the community anyway, and so I am sure we would have a large presence here. That said, we would want to have our own site and forums. We would come here for general chats, interguild talks, whining about the most recent nerf and that sort of thing. Remember the devs intend to be active on affiliate sites post-release, and so Silky Venom Fansite would also be our guilds interface with Sigil. :)

Basically, no forced affiliation. The guys running Silky Venom guild are all really cool, and i'm sure ingame our paths will cross frequently. There is no need to be a direct sister-guild, or anything of the sort. However I would hope we can remain friendly. :D

Silky Pansies or Silky Panties

:eek:

[shiver]

Semi Sliky?
Very Venomous?
Just kidding on the names. While those would be funny they might create a bit of confusion. The ties between the two guilds should be very loose, mainly based on being pulled from the same forums and that sort of thing.

So if there was such a guild what are people into? Raiding? Crafting? City Building? Diplomacy? Chat room in game? Donuts? Goals?

In my non-committing sort of way I can say I am interested in this idea. I think it is a very smart move and a way to keep the SK forum site nice and active after release.

As for who I am? I am that chick that makes the big list of guilds and I should be updating it right now instead of writing this... Assuming I play Vanguard I will be playing all three spheres with Crafting, Harvesting, Diplomacy and Adventure in that order of priority. I know that harvesting is not a true sphere but that doesn’t mean a lot of time doesn’t have to be spent on it. I’ve been playing MMORPGs since UO came out. Haven’t played them all but managed to hit around eleven of them.

What am I looking for in a guild?
Currently based on what I know I think the guild should start in the same continent (even though I don’t think that will happen) Other things I would like to see are:
Organized but not too strict
Community minded
Larger guild (more then 25 active members at release)
No exploit usage, farming or bots
Accepting of crafters and diplomats
PVE server
Plans on doing some Raiding but (not required) and some city building
No age, race, sexual preference, time zone or religious restrictions
Mature but not stuffy
Allows RP but doesn't require it
Friendly to casual play and accepting of people who can play well above the normal amount
Donuts
No guild dues
Into having a really fun time

As for who will lead us:
I think that can be decided at a later time. One of the things to keep in mind is the more rules there are the more stressful it is on the leaders. Having people who join the guild that share like interests and goals really helps. There shouldn’t be a lot of drama, either people joined because they like and understand the community they joined or they joined the wrong community and will be happier elsewhere.

I would love to see the website done “with style” I can not even draw a stick figure though. That leaves me out. I would like to see restrictions on the signature size that people can use though, they seem to get out of control to often. :D

[Loampounder]

That's a great list and I think we need to get a charter that has those details to ensure that people understand what flavor of guild it is. Many of us seem to have compatable level of tastes and seriousness, but a lot of that is due to the self-selection process that brought us here. All types of adventuring, involved community, casual but not gamey, mature and fiendly. It's easy to judge people who you have seen around the forum for months (may be wrong but easy), but how do you make sure new people who want to join are of the same mindset?

So if there was such a guild what are people into? Raiding? Crafting? City Building? Diplomacy? Chat room in game? Donuts? Goals?

Seems a strange question to ask when starting a guild. I hate to be a cynical person, but without a close tie to SVF (Silky venom forum, as opposed to SVG, guild, or SVC, community) what does that leave us in common? In actual gameplay, we have to have something to ensure we stay together as a guild in the game. What happens when Skar hunts at 1pm EST, Shiver crafts at 5pm EST, Belis comes on as Skar logs out to hunt goblins, and I come on at 11pm EST to explore the forest? Perhaps with a presence on the SV website we can get enough mass to have a viable guld to enable all gameplay at most times?

The guild idea is great, but I am just looking for ways to transfer compatable forum personalities into compatable game styles. Perhaps a dedication to an early player city (if they make it by release)? Organized presence at a specific local city in the game? That last one sounds promising.

[Ieranii]

I have nothing to offer talent wise =P but I'm a decent cheerleader and dependable groupmate (and traditionally a healer to boot!). Anyway, I'm looking at guilds and I'd be interested in checking this out if it got going in game.

Good idea skar :)

[Loampounder]

I have nothing to offer talent wise =P but I'm a decent cheerleader and dependable groupmate...
And a fun sniper as well... from the BF2 days... :D

[synjiin]

Very interesting concept to say the least. This community has been one that ive been very fond of.

Now I dont post much as I dont like to speculate about things that are unknown to me. however this sounds like something that would be cool. Ive always been the hardcore raiding type but taking a step back somedays I've considered slowing down.

I've lead guilds, was a recruiter and assited with raid prep. I'd like to see and hear more about this and the overall direction that is decided upon.

[shiver]

Here is a list of 'rules' taken from a guild I used to be in. I always liked it since it seemed get the basics spot on. Anyhow, there are all sorts of ways to run a guild and be part of a guild. Once again these are the sorts of things I like from a guild, different people like different things. :D


"We are first and foremost a community. I prefer to think we are governed by one overriding principle ..

This is a game, and games should be fun.

I describe the community before myself because that's how it should be. We are a collection of players, mostly older (mid 30s seems to be the average age) from throughout the US and Europe. We are comprised of solo hunters, quest leaders, fellowship seekers, general conversationalists, philanthropists, and other types of well-mannered folk.

I have very little need to enforce any type of rules as monarch, because many people join us looking for things we do naturally.

We do not grief others.

I have never seen a kill so vital that I had to take it from someone else. Monsters respawn. If you have reason to believe someone else is fighting a creature, or it's unclear, I prefer us to simply back away from the fight. Accidents happen, I know. But you can lose a monster and make a friend in the process.

In a similar vein, if a quest requires a line, I prefer that we make one ... or get at the end of someone elses. There are few quests we could not run again if we needed to.

Now ... people have a right to be upset if someone griefs them. This includes us. But I ask that we take the high road when those instances occur. Please do not trash talk. Please Please get the monarchs and patrons involved and do not post grievances on Vault. Solving problems is so much easier when the entire community isn't defending or bashing the parties involved.

We play nice.

Few us us PK/PKL extensively. Doing so is fine, but I ask all players to remember ... you can beat or lose to someone based on skill. It is not necessary to personalize it through inappropriate speech. Profanity and hate speech are not needed, and I actively discourage their use. Most of us can talk faster than we type ... and you can edit text much easier than editing speech. Remember that. Profanity may slip out on a rare occasion (and even then, normally only when we are in all-adult fellows ... we do have children in this monarchy), but try to avoid it. Hate speech is never tolerated.

We respect each other.

No one is going to like everyone all the time. But remember to respect each other. I have bad days too. Forward disputes to me if you need a 2nd opinion.

With all that being said, I ultimately run the monarchy. I often solicit opinions from various monarchy members, but I do not share private information with anyone unless I have permission to do so.

One side request. Allegiance chat is great. Use it to ask questions and chat. But if you're really just planning to talk to one other person, slip into /t mode so the rest of us don't get sucked into a private conversation.

Kill, loot, and be merry. Not necessarily in that order."

[Belisarius]

A few people were talking about guilds at the fanguard and I said I wanted a guild not just for good players (of every sphere) but also good people who want to become good players.

Most of the complaints about group members I think stems from said group member being ignorant of facts: about gameplay, what they and other classes can do. SO if we recruit person of good will and intention who are willing to take a little direction I think we'll do better than if we look for good players.

Also I think that we should try to balance dedicated crafters and diplomats with the adventuring side. I myself am totally enamored with the idea of diplomacy so that's where I'll be alot

On a side note, why have a guild leader at all? If we are to be Sticky Anti-Venom, we should have a loose command structure in place. I have no inside knowledge about what Sigil is planning for guilds, but perhaps haveing guild owners (3-10 people) who appoint a leader makes more sense, or no leader with each owner responsible for different things.

[Darydale]

Here's what I'm thinking about the guild:

I think the point of MMOs, especially Vanguard, is to experience the game. What I mean by that is that we shouldn't have to worry about getting to the max level at a very fast pace.

At the same time, it would be nice to do some raiding as a guild (which would require that at least some people level their adventuring sphere). I like raiding, but I don’t see it as the end-all point of the game. I want a guild who groups together often, has a fair number of crafters and diplomats, and are just good people to chat with :)

People stay in guilds for mainly two reasons:
1) They are well-run
2) They have good people

I think this guild will have to have a good structure. I was an officer in my WoW guild, and there was a lot of drama over how we did things, especially behind the scenes. If this guild is going to be based off the Silky Venom community, we want to make sure it stays a good place to be. Therefore, I think we should decide on a few things beforehand to avoid arguments and drama about it later on.

A few suggestions:

Don’t let everyone in, at least post-launch. I imagine that Silky Venom will be one of the most popular fan sites later on, and since we’ll all be hanging out here, that may attract some attention to the guild. (Think of all the OVF people migrating here…) Inviting too many new people at once can be a bad thing. It’s better if the old members can get a chance to get to know the new members. Letting them trickle in slowly makes so they don’t overtake the guild and maintains the same guild “atmosphere.”

Also, a certain quality of members is desirable. It’s annoying to have people who are always expecting you to help them with their quests or “PL” them. We’d also want honorable and respectful members. We don’t need people who will ninja-loot or insult guildies, and we want people who will represent us well.

Unfortunately, that means that the guild might have to turn some people away. At least post-launch, there should be some kind of application process before people are allowed in the guild. I suggest an interview with an officer (or officers), and a period of time sufficient for some of the guild to get to know the applicant before he or she is invited. (Of course, the process could be expedited for family members and/or close friends.) This might seem “elitist” to some people, but, like I said before, I think it’s really just the best way to ensure the guild stays a good place to be.

DKP system for raids. Some people don’t like the idea of a DKP system, but IMO it has to be done, basically for the reasons Oloh outlined in the Silky Venom guild loot policy.


I realize this may seem like a lot to think about so far in advance, but if anyone disagrees with it, my reason for bringing it up now will be made evident :)


Finally, to reply to Belsarius, I think the mechanics of the game will require at least a functional leader. (To invite and promote people, set guild options, etc.) I also think it will probably be a good idea to have a leader, but that that leader should spread some of their power and responsibility to some officer-types.

[shiver]

“On a side note, why have a guild leader at all?”

Mainly I think it is good to have a guild leader or two so that they can be a solid and responsible point of contact if people need one. They can be really loose leaders but having someone or someone’s making sure that the guild is going the direction people want is nice. Also there are all the little things like in guild MOTD, guild house and so on that it is nice if just one or two people are in charge of. That way if something goes terribly wrong there is less chance that the guild gets destroyed by someone who got in a bit of snit.

[Loampounder]

Some random thoughts:

Shiver, I love that desription of a guild, especially the part about stressing community being foremost. I think a proper goal should be fun created through building a community. Make sure everyone is focused on bringing their special skills (what ever they enjoy and excel at) back to the community to make it better for all.

Belisarius, yes, I think we need to stress "good will and intentions". I am not sure about "balancing crafts and diplomacy with adventuring" as that sounds like directed effort. I think we should encourage all aspects of the game and encourage people to excel at thier aspect. To this end, I would suggest officers based on sphere. The officer would take a leadership rule in helping others in that sphere. I think our leaders should be dedicated to building others in the community in that sphere rather than pushing the limits of that sphere. More of an anti-SVG thing.

Darydale, great idea - rather than avoid the "elitist", relish it. I suggest only let proven posters into the guild. For the future, a vote could be taken to allow people in; guildmembers could judge someone based on forum posts or in-game experience. I think it's important to stick with articulate people who care about the community, and care enough to post or participate. I am not talking about a specific number of posts, but intent and content. Syn said that he does not post much, but he has a long history (Jun 05 here, May 04 on OVF) and seems not to be abusive or insulting. It's easy to justify using forum input if we stress that it's a community-based guild.

Sorry for being ignorant, but what is DKP? I prefer a need-before-greed philosophy.

Yes,we need a leader, at the very least to keep focus. I do not believe a group of humans can lead by committee. I view it less as a leader and more as a prime organizer. He.she could be our mayor.

[Loampounder]

I love the idea of forum posters at least starting on the same continent so that we can run into people we know. Which continent would people want to start a playertown on?

[Skarlath]

"Dragon Kill Points" or DKP appeared in Everquest, when guilds needed a way to share out high-level raid loot. Basically if you raided with your guild, they would record your name. You would get a certain amount of points for attending, another amount for taking down a boss, another amount for sticking with it right to the end etc. Raid on raid your individual DKP would be tallied up. When a high-level raid item dropped, when on a raid, an auction would be held, and whoever bids the highest amount of DKP wins it, and that amount of DKP is subtracted from their total amount.

Basically it rewards those who raid the most more generously, and rightly so. If you turn up to every raid wanting a particular druid weapon, you don't want someone new guy nabbing it when it finally drops. If you have your heart set on an item, you can save up for it.

It's not flawless.. in my experience it can sometimes discourage casual players from starting to get involved with raiding - why raid for 3 hours when you know your DKP is too low to buy anything? Vicious cycle ensues, blah blah. On the whole, DKP is a nicely thought through system with adaptable rules that tends to work very well.

Guild Leaders. We definitely must have a clear figurehead. The WoW guild that I lead for a while went through a patch of one particular member wanting an entirely democratic running of the guild. It almost tore the guild apart, and so we went back to the dictatorship. You need someone to clearly be the place where the buck stops, you need someone who can be identified by other guilds as the leader and you need a final say on decisions. You must have someone responsible and trustworthy enough to make all of the right calls when officers aren't available to make their input.

However the guild leader must be one of the most frequently playing players - a guild leader who isn't online much is absolutely useless. So nearer the time we need to select someone who wants to do most the admin work for the guild, and who is willing to put a lot of time into the game both in the long and short run.

Admissions Policy. I absolutely agree with a reasonably tight admissions policy. When I stepped down from leading my WoW guild, and left the game, the guild became a lot more relaxed with who they let in. The guild is now flooded with guildhoppers trying to get in on raids. Not good at all.

The atmosphere of the guild is something that definitely effects recruitment, and so here's how I would like the guild to feel. I'm not that interested in having a massive guild, however I would want us to be well known and respected. Both in etiquette and skill. I would like us to seem like a fairly closed off little community who are continually pushing eachother to reach new heights, whilst providing that flexability of playtimes that has served to draw us together. Rather than 'recruiting' members, I would like us, and others outside of the guild, to see it as taking a player under our collective wing. Together teaching the new member our way of playing, all the tricks of the game, how to play their character most effectively and work together to have that member become the creme de la creme.

With that in mind, we would want to recruit players who seem to have potential. We would want players who aren't looking to guild hop, but are looking for a place to stay for the long haul. Those who are ready and willing to learn everything that we throw at them.

An exclusive club, if you will, that works hard to ensure their internal community is thoroughly enjoyable, and their external face is exemplary.

We don't need to limit who we recruit entirely to those who are already highly skilled, simply those who seem competant and willing. There were a couple of kids in my WoW guild who I had typing things in full by the end. :) All of this ties into what Bel said about not just wanting good players, but wanting those who want to become good players.

Strong community orientation is important. My opinions actually remind me of the current British Territorial Army advert on television for mechanised infantry - the slogan of "Together as one". I want a guild where everyone is willing to help each other succeed. It may well be that this means that the guild is a little less friendly to solo-players. Would that be a problem with anyone?

I'll just add that certain mechanics in Vanguard are going to change how guilds work fairly dramatically. I would hope we could level at similar paces, travel together using the caravan system and help players keep up with everyone using the fellowship system.

I liked the guild description from Shivers old guild. It was very nice, and definitely the sort of intentions I would like to see for our guild. Just one thing...

Patrons and monarchs? Allegiences? PK/PKLite? Shiver, I didn't realise you played AC1! :D

That actually got me thinking...the AC1 allegience system was great, but Vanguard's guilds will undoubtedly not use that system. But is it perhaps something we might want to implement ourselves?

In AC1 the way it worked was your character could swear allegience to another character. Your character was then the vassal, and the character you swore to, your patron. A character could have only one patron, but multiple vassals. The patron at the very top of the chain was called a monarch.

The beauty of this system was it very much promoted a 'taking new members under your wing' attitude. The guild might work together on things, but ultimately a patron alone was responsible for their vassals.

Would it help the community feel if we worked with something like this? If you found someone who you felt should join the guild, then you would ask to become that players patron - something not supported by the game, but rather would have to be administered outside. You would then be responsible for the needs of that vassal, and should you feel happy enough with your current vassals you could apply to take on another friend as your vassal.

I'm not sure if i'm being entirely clear. :p

Lets say I start the guild as leader, and Bel and Loam are officers. They are my vassals, and I their patron. Then Loam meets Shiver, he thinks she would fit well in the guild, so we interview her - she's just the type we want and so Loam - the scout who originally found her - becomes her patron. Ieranii is then found by Shiver, and although new Shiver seems like a promising player, and so we allow her to take on Ieranii as a vassal.

High up in the chain, the differences between patrons and vassals would be indistinct, and the degree of help would mainly be a social one. However further down the chain towards the bottom, where you have newer, lower level players, the vassal may well benefit greatly from help from their patron.

It would encourage everyone to be involved with being directly responsible for at least one other member. As a guild we would all help each other anyway, but if a vassal needs someone to turn to then their patron would be their first choice.


What do you guys think? A system worth having, or two many rules and constraints?

[Eclipse]

Patron-Vassal relationships were a vital reason AC1 stuck around as long as it did, and is an absolutely fantastic idea for Vanguard.

If this kind of system were implemented in a guild I was in, I would be a large advocate of it.

gg Skar.

-Eclipse

[Ieranii]

And a fun sniper as well... from the BF2 days... :D


Heheh thanks Loam! I had fun with you guys even though I think I was best at providing points for our group medics! It was fun though wasn't it. You know, I finally have a computer that will run BF2 like a dream but now I've lost touch with anyone who still plays. =/


EDIT: Now, having read the rest of the posts in a leisurely fashion I'd like to address the content of those one by one. Er...sorry for all the quotes =x


We are first and foremost a community. I prefer to think we are governed by one overriding principle ..
This is a game, and games should be fun.
We do not grief others.
We respect each other.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, I'd like to see us have a standard for behavior when considering guild applicants.


Belisarius Said
A few people were talking about guilds at the fanguard and I said I wanted a guild not just
for good players (of every sphere) but also good people who want to become good players.
I agree. The potential and attitude of a player is more important than experience in my book. Skill can be built but poor attitudes are usually, in my experience, impossible to change.

I think the point of MMOs, especially Vanguard, is to experience the game.
What I mean by that is that we shouldn't have to worry about getting to the max level
at a very fast pace.

I like raiding, but I don’t see it as the end-all point of the game. I want a guild who
groups together often, has a fair number of crafters and diplomats, and are just good
people to chat with

Don’t let everyone in, at least post-launch.Also, a certain quality of members is desirable.
Unfortunately, that means that the guild might have to turn some people away.

DKP system for raids.

Oh my goodness, agree X4! I am an "explorer". By that I don't always mean the landscape. I like to explore all aspects of a game. I'll try crafting, diplomacy and adventuring. I'll explore all the nooks and crannys. I'll buy things and sell things, learn languages (if I can). The bottom line is, I don't level fast at all. I want a guild like you describe but typically the guilds with the clearest rules and the tightest application standards are also the ones who require fast level advancement. I don't level fast but when I get there I will know a lot about the game. This is sounding like a good foundation for a great guild guys! My biggest question of course is...do you take fluffy bunnies? :p Because I post but generally, especially in the OVF my posts are fluffy, off topic, just for fun posts.

Loampounder said
I love the idea of forum posters at least starting on the same continent so that we can run
into people we know.
Awww Loam, I heart ya dearly but do we have to? =/ I'm a free spirit and I promise I'll come find you guys as soon as possible. I could start an alt on the main continent if you need extra chars to start the guild but I kind of have my heart set on Kojan human and I'd be sad if that stopped me from being able to be in the guild. :( (assuming of course, that you let fluffy bunnies in)

Skarlath said
I'm not that interested in having a massive guild, however I would want us to be well known
and respected. Both in etiquette and skill. I would like us to seem like a fairly closed off
little community who are continually pushing eachother to reach new heights, whilst providing
that flexability of playtimes that has served to draw us together. Rather than 'recruiting'
members, I would like us, and others outside of the guild, to see it as taking a player under
our collective wing.
With that in mind, we would want to recruit players who seem to have potential. We would want
players who aren't looking to guild hop, but are looking for a place to stay for the long haul.
Those who are ready and willing to learn everything that we throw at them.

An exclusive club, if you will, that works hard to ensure their internal community is
thoroughly enjoyable, and their external face is exemplary.

Again I agree!

As far as the patron/vassal thing goes...when does it end? When is the vassal considered on their own? Is it strictly for help and advice or is it a disciplinary thing too?

I mean ideally we wouldn't have to discipline anyone but if someone slips through and turns into a creep will we actually do anything about it? I've seen guild leaders with good intentions let bad behavior slide because it didn't happen very often (or at least wasn't reported very often).

Will we use vent/IRC/IM channel?

In my last guild in eq we had a seperate, in game, chat channel for applicants. Members of the guild would hang out in there too. It was nice for getting to know people and keeping them informed when it came to raids and such. I think it's a good idea provided vanguard supports chat channels. If they don't support chat channels I would like to see an im account for the guild that applicants and members could hang out in.


EDIT again: Where do you guys stand on RP? Encourage, discourage or accepting but not participating?

[Darydale]

Sorry for being ignorant, but what is DKP? I prefer a need-before-greed philosophy.

I think we should use NBG to some degree, like in groups. And I would hope that even people with a lot of DKP wouldn't be too greedy and take stuff they don't really need. This doesn't usually happen.

I love the idea of forum posters at least starting on the same continent so that we can run into people we know. Which continent would people want to start a playertown on?

I don't want to limit ourselves, either. I think my main will be on Theastra, but I've got to try a gnome psionicist, wood elf ranger, dark elf blood mage, etc... :P

Will we use vent/IRC/IM channel?

Although I never used voice chat in EQ and had a great time, I did enjoy using Ventrilo in my WoW guild. I think it's something we should do; it can be easier to get to know people through voice chat. It's also really handy on raids. I don't think it should be required, with the possible exception of raids.

Voice chat can create a problem, however, when only some people are using it. I would think this would mostly just come up when 2-5 people out of a 6-man group are using voice chat, or all except 1 or 2 raid members are using voice chat (since instructions would be given in text if the whole raid is not on voice). People have a tendency to leave others out of their plans, usually accidentally. (Cleric: "Uh, guys, we're attacking the big ogre now?" Ranger: "Yeah, but don't step on the skulls!" Cleric: "Er, what, no one told me!!!" [A bunch of skellies pop out of the ground; they all die.])

I'd predict it wouldn't be too much of a problem in guild chat, though. There may be a fair number of people who are not on voice chat normally.


As for the Patron/Vassal thing, it sounds like it could be good, but I don't really have any experience with it. I hope that as we approach release, we can continue to discuss it and flesh it out, and see how it might work with our guild and with the Vanguard mechanics (think of how you can let people borrow armor and items, etc). I think that even if not everyone wanted to participate, we could at least have some people who are patrons, and take vassals under their wing.

[Loampounder]

Awww Loam, I heart ya dearly but do we have to? =/ I'm a free spirit and I promise I'll come find you guys as soon as possible. I could start an alt on the main continent if you need extra chars to start the guild but I kind of have my heart set on Kojan human and I'd be sad if that stopped me from being able to be in the guild. :( (assuming of course, that you let fluffy bunnies in)
Oh, dear Lord, I did not mean to say that the guild would impose restrictive rules on anyone. My logic went sort of like - we need to start somewhere and our guildhall/player town would need to be someplace and I would encourage a guild density so where were people interested in starting. I would promote a guild that would not have obligations (other than being involved in discussion and community) and value friendship over service.

Keep in mind, that a guild seperated across the world does not hold itself together well.

Fluffy bunnies? It's the fluff that binds a community. Fluff encouraged (did you see Skar's postcount? Yeah, he's a fluffinator.)

DKP - Yeah, we called it attendance points. Sounds like a lot of work for a guild acountant.

Vassal - Again, sounds like a lot of accounting. I usually have a problem with authority figures (which makes me self-deprecating alot of times) so I tend to dislike structures like this. How long will someone be considered a vassal? What if the vassal learns more or advances further than the mentor? In my EQ2 guild I was officer of the priests; perhaps a mentoring system organized by interest or profession may be more realistic?

I do believe the main focus should be on helping eachother. "vassal" just seems sort of restrictive and oppressive.

The atmosphere of the guild is something that definitely effects recruitment, and so here's how I would like the guild to feel. I'm not that interested in having a massive guild, however I would want us to be well known and respected. Both in etiquette and skill. I would like us to seem like a fairly closed off little community who are continually pushing eachother to reach new heights, whilst providing that flexability of playtimes that has served to draw us together.
QFE

[Ieranii]

As far as the DKP points go, in my experience with them, they were strictly for raid awards. Group looting was handled by the group at the time of the group. I prefer NBG in groups but DKP for raiding but that's just me.


So what are you guys personal preferences when it comes to RP? Encouraged, discouraged or accepting but not participating?

EDIT: OH oh one thing I wished I could do in my other (dkp) guilds was have the ability to donate some of my dkp to friends.

Also, the only issue I have with dkp is when someone with a ton of senority and dkp gets a drop and gives it to an alt when a new member who has a decent chunk of dkp is also present and trying to get the same item. That was an issue when drops were "auctioned" in guild for dkp points. When items had assigned points and leadership took into consideration which character would be upgraded the most I thought it worked a lot better.

It is a lot of accounting though. We wouldn't be a heavy raiding guild though right? That would make it a little more bearable.

[Loampounder]

I encourage roleplaying, but nothing formal or using foreign-sounding articles. I think it's most enjoyable if people keep the real world at arms length while playing and present a personality for a character.

[Belisarius]

Lets say I start the guild as leader, and Bel and Loam are officers. They are my vassals, and I their patron. Then Loam meets Shiver, he thinks she would fit well in the guild, so we interview her - she's just the type we want and so Loam - the scout who originally found her - becomes her patron. Ieranii is then found by Shiver, and although new Shiver seems like a promising player, and so we allow her to take on Ieranii as a vassal.

Aww, I don't get a vassal?:D

Love the mentor/apprentice model. (Vassal sounds too off-putting)


Let me apologize in advance, I am much more verbose in speech than text.
My idea was part thinking-out-loud and part lets-do-it another-way. If we had guild owners, lets say, we 6 or so, then any or all of us, in succession, could fill the role of guild leader, and if we decided that none of us wanted to be leader, we could appoint another member of the guild to fill that role. This allows for one person to give clear direction, while knowing that he can be replaced if he fracks it up too much. Like I said, the mechanics of VG would have to support this, but I think its an idea worth considering. Until we know how many kinds of guild structures VG will allow, its pointless speculation.

As far as RP, I'd say personally I'd like to see it Encouraged, this is where the "good intentions" come into play, I'm not gonna blast someone with a "thou art a troglodytic sodomite" because they don't RP, I'm gonna explain why we RP (immersion and fun) and explain some simple rules for RPing (act like your character would act, backstory, motivation etc etc)

As far as continent, depending on numbers, we could perhaps start two oe even 3 iterations of the same guild (slightly different names) on the different continents and merge at higher level. I'm hoping that there will be some mechanic for there to be an "emperor" of the guild situationed on one continent, and "Vassal Kings" on the other two with all the power of a guild leader for that continent.

DKP: I was never a raider, but I can see some huge benfit to the lending system Brad talked about. Say there are two people who want the same item (Body of Belisarius +2k to sexiness) the raid leader loots it and lendsit to the person who can use it most right now, then after a few levels, recovers it, and gives it tpo the other fellow. Poor example, I know, but many iterations of this could be fleshed out.

Never used voice chat, but I could see how it could be a help and a hiderance. Hopefully we'll all get into Beta and we can see how we like it.

[Ieranii]

Hmm lending is a neat idea but I'd be opposed to one person holding all the loot (ie: guild leader). I'd rather see loot awarded and members encouraged to lend their out-grown gear to other members.

I like the idea of guild leaders being elected, maybe yearly elections.

I do think that a leader for each continent is a bit drastic and we'd end up being three different guilds that way. We'd end up with more of an alliance than a single guild. Personally my first quest in vanguard would be to find my way to where ever the rest of you might be. That would be an adventure!

/random thought- bearing in mind that I have no experience with the vassal system...I can't help but feel, when you talk about vassals and such, that it is building layers of senority or power rather than a mentoring system. From your description I know that the feeling is off base but still...that's the flavor of the words minus any experience with the system. Just so's ya know.

[shiver]

I am happy that people like the bulk of the ideas of the old guild I belonged to and my list of what I want out of a guild. That is a good indication of what kind of people we are here. So far no one has said anything that sounds ‘off’ to me which is nice. So here are some more thoughts and opinions from me.

Roleplaying:
A couple people asked about RP: I don’t see a reason to discourage people from roleplaying in a game. It would be part of the fluff factor. Fluffy is good, even fluffy bunnies are good, come to think of it a non-fluffy bunny would be a sad bunny indeed. I much rather listen to people roleplaying then talk about religion or politics or cat litter in game, those are discussions that I think only separate a guild.

Patron/Vassal:
I also like the Patron /Vassal idea and have seen this done more then once. I will try to say my take on the whole thing hopefully it might help set Loampounder (and others at ease a bit) A patron is not a boss (and shouldn’t be bossy) they are meant to be a guide and a friend who help a person get to know the guild, help with the game and make sure that the new guild mate is getting along and having fun. By being a patron you are showing you support the person you brought into the guild.

I think a lot of non-ac players might find the names “Patron” and “Vassal” to be part of the issue, ignore the names *grin*. It is not a relationship of superior to inferior, it is one person making sure that the people they bring into the community fit in and get the support they need to have the most fun. While in many guilds this role can be played by a recruitment officer it is much nicer to spread the help around. Once you ‘out grow’ your patron hopefully you will still have a close bond of friendship when you find someone you think would be good for the guild then you would be their patron. And the cycle continues.

A big factor is the willingness to take responsibility for those that join the guild, introducing them to others, trying to make sure you can answer questions, and helping them fit in more swiftly. This doesn’t mean that never being a patron means that people aren’t expected to help out members, it just means that a new guildie has a clear idea of a great person to ask first. (Keep in mind this is my take on the issue, let me know if you’re someone that thinks I am off base)

DKP:
For the DKP system I really don’t see why people in a guild like this wouldn’t want the raid items to go to the person who needs it first. In the case of two people who need it equally they can roll for it. That is just me. I think in a strong community where people are committed to each other the DPK system is not very useful. Still, I accept that it is a commonly used thing in guilds so it is better to have some kind of plan. There are as many ways to handle raid loot as there are guilds. There are also some common problems with the raid point system for looting.

1. Some people hate it. They like the need before greed systems
2. Sometimes officers end out with the most points *corrupt system*
3. Crafters and Diplomats don't get raid points
4. The items don't always go to the people who can benefit from them the most.

Here is an example of a DKP system I don’t hate:

1. Go on raid, raid leader takes note of all people on raid
2. Kill big thingy, get raid level loot
3. All people on raid got 1 DKP point
4. Raid leader gives raid items to raid item holder
5. Raid item holder posts the item on guild board
6. Hold auction for raid items auction lasts 24 hours
7. Highest bidder’s points are spent. Item is given to winner

1/2 a point is given to people who can attend only part of the raid.
These points will only apply to raids that are lead by or deemed worthy of points by the raid officers. If at any time people feel the system is being abused then it would be discussed as a guild and work on the solution.
What does this mean for crafters and diplomats? According to Vanguard there will be group efforts that take people from all three spheres and raid level difficulty things in each sphere.

Now this system basically comes down to the fact that you can get the item if you have the points for it. You could sell the item, give it to an alt, put it in the bank. After all, you earned the item so it is yours to do with as you please. However, a person that does that doesn’t sound quite like what kind of person most people around here want. The idea of lending out and passing up and down raid items is excellent, anyone could do this. Much shiny goodness sharing!

Continents:
I think this will be really important to start on the same continents for guilds, I also don’t think it will happen. Closer to release we will all know how much it will matter and adjust to work it out. Hopefully beta people will have ideas for this closer to release.

Guild leaders:
I think that having an active guild leader is incredibly important, while I don’t expect anyone (sane)to play as many hours as I would, they need to be around if possible during different times of the day. It is best if the guild leader(s) know who all the people in the guild are. If there were two guild leader types you could have a day and night shift leaders. It always seems like the ‘off-hour’ guild members get forgotten about and neglected more then is necessary.

Solo players:
Skarlath you said “It may well be that this means that the guild is a little less friendly to solo-players. Would that be a problem with anyone?”
Can you expand on what you’re thinking of here? By a little less friendly I assume you don’t mean that solo players will be stoned to death. :p

Voice chats:
I won’t be using one. It may be that someone has my phone number so they can wake me up at 3:00am if the guild town is burning down but I am against voice chats. I might be willing to admit that for raids they could be useful but, in a non-raid situation I think they fragment the guild.

[Ieranii]

The only issue I have with auctioning type dkp system is that it places the advantage on the side of the members who have been around longest and have the greatest accumulated point pool. They can just bid high enough that new members have no chance of winning anything good.

I much prefer raid items to have assigned point values. That way the members who are interested in an item tell the officer who deals with that sort of thing. That officer consults the rest of the guild leaders and they decide, based on need, who out of the interested parties gets the item.

As far as the need of a dkp system. Well we wouldn't need it at first but we'd grow a bit, we'd raid more and I think it's prudent to have, like shiver said, a plan in place from the beginning. It can be tweaked as we go of course...

The rest of it sounds about right to me. :)

[Darydale]

Voice chats:
I won’t be using one. It may be that someone has my phone number so they can wake me up at 3:00am if the guild town is burning down but I am against voice chats. I might be willing to admit that for raids they could be useful but, in a non-raid situation I think they fragment the guild.

I understand, and there were a bunch of people in my old guild, especially role-players, that didn't like using voice chat. The problem is that if it is introduced for raiding, people will want to use it at other times. Personally, I think that the positives outweigh the negatives, but ultimately it's something we're just going to have to decide on.

Roleplaying: I'd say encouraged, although I am not an intense roleplayer.


DKP:
I didn't understand the importance of DKP until I was in a situation where it was needed. I would have thought that NBG would have been fine. Here I will attempt to explain some of what I think about DKP. Please point out any flaws or disagreements you may have.

If the guild frequently raids an area, new-comers to the area will feel that they are entitled to a chance at the loot. They may also think it's selfish of the hardcore raiders to try to get certain items, especially when the hardcore raiders are already so well equipped, and the stuff that is dropping may only be a little bit better.

I can see the logic in this, and it makes some sense. But let's look at it from the hardcore raider's perspective. They put a ton of time in on these raids. They may continue to go on raids even though they don't need most of the things from that particular zone, for the chance at getting some rare item, or just to help the guild.

Then let's say that the "Uber Rare Staff of Frost Damage" drops. A hardcore raider will feel that they should have more of a chance at it since they've been raiding so long, and additionally, they may not have much left to look forward to in that zone. If the hardcore raider feels that they will have a good chance at that rare item if it drops, they will be more likely to come and help out on raids. This is one case where DKP would help. They would be more likely to get that staff than the new-comer.

Does the frequent-raider need the staff more than the newcomer? No. But they have spent more time, and I think it's important to keep them motivated. It is likely that there will be a bunch of other things that the frequent-raider no longer needs that the new-comer can have a chance at. That way, they both can get something they need. Everyone gets an upgrade (hopefully).

Keep in mind also that the hardcore raiders pave the way for the newcomers. They spend a lot of time learning a zone, and perfecting techniques so that the guild will be successful in future trials. We want to encourage them to keep doing this with DKP. Their time spent benefits the guild, and they guide the newcomers when they do reach that zone.


DKP is not to be confused with “guild worth.” Drops on raids are rewards for time spent on raids. We may want to have some other kind of system to reward crafters and diplomats if it fits in to the game mechanics. Adventurers will be dependent on the other spheres, so I think we will make sure that they don’t get the short end of the stick when it comes to multi-sphere quests and such.


I wanted to add that, some of this really may not be relevant or accurate once we see what Vanguard is really like. I'm just trying to go by my experience in other games. Mostly I'm just trying to put forward this perspective.

[Skarlath]

DKP - As someone said, case by case NBG is fine for casual grouping. DKP systems are only necessary for raids, and they will come later on anyway. Couple of questions that have come up within DKP.

Sharing DKP - I would prefer not, really. This is because it's just a little unfair on someone who saves up for a drop, but can't win it when it drops due to someone having a raid-fanatic friend. The person who recieves the item (the friend of the raid-fanatic) could potentially raid very rarely and generally contribute little to the raiding side of the guild. However inability for new members or casual raiders to win items is a problem.

The council of allocation sounds like an interesting idea. Entirely impartial, naturally, we could run a system similar to DKP, but not quite. Simply recording DKP privately, and then using this as a basis to make decisions as to who wins what. Incorporating what Shiver just mentioned - for 24 hours people could post on the forums saying "I want to go into the running for that". It would basically be DKP but at the discretion of the officers.

This has the potential to be abused... but I think we are all a little more sensible than that. We want a happy, well armed guild as opposed to a discontented corrupt one, so there wouldn't be too many problems. :)

Roleplaying - Some of my most memorable times in MMORPGs were when indulging in a little roleplay. I'm by no means an avid roleplayer, but it's something i'd like to see encouraged. For a while in my WoW guild I kept up a nice little system of me roleplaying a little in guild chat, but mostly typing in ooc type of chat, but when grouping I would attempt to talk in character and such. We just need to encourage this sort of thing and let members decide if they want to play along. :)

Starting Continent - As someone mentioned, we better leave this till closer to launch... i'm not entirely sure what i'm going to be playing yet, but it may well be a raki.

Mentor/Patron System - Shiver explained it well. Because Vanguard supports EQ style layered guilds, the implementation of Mentor/Apprentice relationships would have a couple of effects. Firstly, the apprentice would feel more confident at getting involved, as they have an easy interface with the guild - a quick resource for answering questions and such. It would also effect recruitment - when you find someone who you want to join the guild, you take them on as your apprentice, and so you are responsible for looking after them. This would simply to be to get more people involved with helping out newbies and spread the load around. :)

The reason for AC1 to call it patrons and vassals was largely due to the fact that Patrons were given some xp when their vassal earned some. So if a vassal earns themselves 10k xp, they would also earn say, 1k for their patron on top of that. This built a relationship of the patron helping the vassal by kitting them out, showing them the ropes, taking them to good hunting grounds, and the vassal repaying them with xp. :)

Guildleaders - There's never a good reason to become entirely fixated on one leader, and so the guild should be built bearing in mind that circumstances may change and an officer may have to take the position of guild leader for whatever reason. All that stuff can be worked out further down the line though. :)

Voicechat - I didn't used to like using it, but it is worth using. Never make it compulsory, and try to make sure its use doesn't end up excluding those who don't want to use it, but it is a good tool and a lot of fun. No reason to miss out.

Death to Solo players? - :D What I meant was that if we are a community orientated guild offering lots of help and support to each other we will probably end up being a guild of likeminded people. With careful recruitment we are unlikely to induct players who have no intention to contribute and help each other out.

That said, always be accomodating. If a player can add in some ways but perhaps prefers to play on there own - lonesome diplomat? - there is no reason why they wouldn't be welcome, providing they are willing to help out in other ways, such as crafters supplying the guild or teaching newbies how to be an efficient crafter etc.

What I guess I am trying to say is that I would like pretty much all of our members to have some good community spirit, and those who don't may not be the best choices as recruits.


In terms of starting continents - what races were you guys thinking about playing? (tentatively or otherwise)

Edit: By the way Loam ... Fluffinator?!

[Ieranii]

I'll probably be a kojan healer of some sort but that's not set in stone of course.


DKP -
Sharing DKP - I would prefer not, really. This is because it's just a little unfair on someone who saves up for a drop, but can't win it when it drops due to someone having a raid-fanatic friend. The person who recieves the item (the friend of the raid-fanatic) could potentially raid very rarely and generally contribute little to the raiding side of the guild. However inability for new members or casual raiders to win items is a problem.

You're right, I can see where that would be a problem.

The council of allocation sounds like an interesting idea. Entirely impartial, naturally, we could run a system similar to DKP, but not quite. Simply recording DKP privately, and then using this as a basis to make decisions as to who wins what. Incorporating what Shiver just mentioned - for 24 hours people could post on the forums saying "I want to go into the running for that". It would basically be DKP but at the discretion of the officers.

I'd rather not have dkp recorded privately. Watching your pool grow is a nice incentive especially if you are saving up for a nice item and you know how much that item costs.

[Darydale]

Theastran or high elf cleric, probably--also not set in stone.

[Skarlath]

I'd rather not have dkp recorded privately. Watching your pool grow is a nice incentive especially if you are saving up for a nice item and you know how much that item costs.

I agree, but if the decision is ultimately down to the council to decide, and therefore may not be entirely based on DKP, then you risk some people getting a little upset.

I'll set the scene: a frequent raider and a moderate raider bother want an item, but the frequent raider won an item 2 weeks ago whilst the moderate raider has never had anything. The frequent raider has more points, but the council decides that the item should go to the moderate raider. If the frequent raider doesn't know numerically how far ahead he is in points then he wont be that bothered that he didn't win the second item as well.

If however he can see that he is a good 10 points ahead of the moderate raider then he might get annoyed that his efforts are going to waste.


You may well be right though - the incentive may outweigh potential problems.

[Loampounder]

I also do not like sharing DPK, as it is a loophole in the system. I think loot should be passed out soon so that the person who gets it is on the raid, and knows what it's for rather than research, min/maxing and then deciding he/she wants it. People should be there, have done the time, and know what the loot is about.

I am not worried about being "fair" to newcomers. They did not join to gain loot, remember? Do the time.

Would a vassal system work is people choose partons or vassals when joining? Say I find a good, smart person who crafts; my crafting skills (or interest) are not as advanced as Shivers so I could suggest that the new guy becomes Shivers apprentice, or Shivers could suggest that his current apprentice is ready for an apprentice of his own. I believe in matching up compatable people.

I ask about starting locations because I am more interested in filling a need near our base of operations rather that a particular class/race.

[Loampounder]

Just to collect ideas, let me start a list of words to decribe the guild; please let me know if something does not mesh:

community-focused
loose-structure branching to each sphere
hierarchy structure to support newcomers
forum activity encouraged
RP encouraged
DKP raid system
NBG group loot structure
fluff desired

It sounds like we will need to leverage our forum presense as much as possible to collect like-minded people to join. With a broad, loose structure we need plenty of people, yet we want friendly, fun-loving people. And idea on how to sell the guild to attract these people before release?

[Skarlath]

fluff/fluffy puppies desired*

Loam, your mention of matching people up sounds very sensible. If you and shiver were both crafters, it might be beneficial for you - an experienced, but not as much as Shiver, crafter - to take on the new recruit as your apprentice. They would still get benefits from having Shiver nearby to help, but in some situations a less-experienced mentor may be able to equally benefit from their apprentice, and give something back to the guild for all the help they recieved.

The mentor/apprentice system also helps cut down on "loose guildies". In my WoW guild, lots of new players joined but we didn't really keep a count of new recruits or anything like that. If every recruit must be attached to a mentor then people are more likely to be more reserved when taking on another apprentice, and so our community would continue to be kept in the right state. :)

As to the raid stuff - the newcomers should enjoy raiding and be able to rack up some points with a little effort anyway. :) If the raiding isn't fun then as a fun-seeking guild we probably would be doing less of it :p

Regarding the player city - we don't know a huge amount about player housing and when we will be able to build them and such. To decide on starting locations and town placement we really need wait for a little more information on how towns are going to work. :)

[Loampounder]

Back to names - going to throw out some lies of logic to see is anything sticks:

Topic - derivative from Silky Venom or other Sigil Sayings. Antivenom. Silky Explorers. Council of Venom. Silky Fluff. Silky Brotherhood, Silky Fellowship.

Topic - derivated from old guild names - I always liked the name Twilight Council. Anyone else have old guild names they liked?

Topic - similiar to Crimson Fellowship - Friend Fellowship, Forum Fellowship, Band of Fluffy Forum Followers, Council of Service, Swashbuckler's Alliance, Council of Highwaymen, The Lavender Brotherhood,

Topic - monster based - Dragon's Talon, Fellowship of the Wolf, Griffon's Claw, Horde of Ants that Don't Kill But Annoy, Fellowship of Pirates, Forest Pirates, Fluff Pirates, Tim.

Ideals, people, we need more ideas...

[Loampounder]

Loam, your mention of matching people up sounds very sensible. If you and shiver were both crafters, it might be beneficial for you - an experienced, but not as much as Shiver, crafter - to take on the new recruit as your apprentice. They would still get benefits from having Shiver nearby to help, but in some situations a less-experienced mentor may be able to equally benefit from their apprentice, and give something back to the guild for all the help they recieved.
I suggest that newcomers choose an area of interest and guild members (or council of officers) assign a patron based on what is right at the time. Input from both sides with the final say-so to the benefit of the community.

[Skarlath]

Hmm, yes, that's good, but i'd like to see people taking responsibility with those they pick up. It's likely a crafter is going to be meeting crafters anyway - where possible the apprentice should be placed under whoever scouted them. That builds the mentor-apprentice relationship a little more strongly I feel.

Edit:

Names... Hmmm....

Firstly, I don't think a derivative of Silky Venom is fair. They have an awesome name, but pinching it's inspiration would be asking too much.

I do however very much like the idea of taking another Sigil-related quote and using it. Something that sums up the community... I'll have a think. :)

Edit2: Perhaps something that alludes to the long wait we have endured..?

[Darydale]

:eek:

I have no idea about names. I might want to stay away from "Silky Venom" type names for the sole reason that it might get confusing. People like to shorten names, so if they started referring to Silky Venom Guild as "Silky," and we had silky in our name, it could get confused.

Perhaps we should try to think of a name that represents us. Personally, I'd like to think of a fresh name :) That might be hard, though.

[Ieranii]

Ok, at the risk of beating a dead horse...my last thought on dkp for the time being.

Here is how my last guild worked and I really liked it a lot but I'm really pretty easy so I can go with the flow if you guys hate the idea.

Raider 1 raids a lot 90percent attendence, gets upgrades pretty regularly (due to having points coming in regularly) has a decent set of gear and is a helpful, pleasant member(this was me)

Raider 2 raids but not as frequently, lets say 60 percent attendence, is helpful, pleasant member in the time they do play. Has mostly pretty old gear.

The uber stick of clericy whack-a-mole drops, decent stats, slight upgrade for me (raider 1), considerable upgrade for raider 2.

I have 110 points, having spent much of my points for my purdy stuff I already have...

raider 2 has 95, having saved theirs up for months.


If I said I wanted it and raider 2 said they'd like to have it I would expect the leaders, under the system my last guild had, to give it to raider 2 because of the fact it's a huge upgrade for them and slight for me. I'm fine with that.

Eventually all the mains will be geared up nicely no matter how much they raid, provided we don't have a lot of turn over. At that point people will be saving up points.

The next expansion that comes out the most prolific raiders with the points to burn will get first dibs on the gear...as they get geared up and things are no longer a big upgrade the upgrades start being awarded down to the people who raid less.

Basically, my ideal of a system is that

People collect points
attendence is tallied
Loot is given a value
People ask for loot if they have enough points to cover the value
Leadership decides on the award based on:

1)what kind of upgrade it is for each member who puts in a request
2)what kind of attendence each member has

That's my prefered system. :)

Now, as far as a name goes. I would think that we might want to avoid the "silky" connection in the name. Since we aren't really a branch of silky venom and we will be on our own. I like Loams "twilight council". Of course there are the silly names like Muffin Marauders or, dare I suggest it, Fluffy Bunnies...hehe I kid...well sort of.

I love the idea of matching people up based on interests, playtimes.

[Ieranii]

Something that sums up the community... I'll have a think. :)

Edit2: Perhaps something that alludes to the long wait we have endured..?



Soon
or
More on This Later

I kid!

sort of hehehehe

[Valerius]

I would like to express my interest in the concept of this guild. I usually play every night for 3 - 4 hours and prefer to do it with guild mates if at all possible. I love exploring dungeons and new places and I like to interact on the boards and am a firm believer in the benefits of "encouraging" people to frequent the boards as well. As far a loot goes, great if it happens, not the end of the world if it doesn't. I hate drama and loot whores/whiny babies.

Class:
Paladin

Playtimes:
Mon - Fri : 9:30pm - Midnight/1am (Central Time)(3hrs or so)
Weekends : Anytime (at all times to include late night)

Playstyle:
Casual exploration with some raiding.
Love to dungeon crawl.
Love to explore new places.
Loot is secondary to fun.

Experience:
EQ1 (4yrs), Enchanter (60), Druid (55), Paladin (55)
EQ2 (1yr), Paladin (50), Templar (45)
WoW (4mos), Shaman (25), Paladin (45)
EVE (3mos)

Guild Experience:
Led a guild (averaged 60-70 people) in EQ1 for about 3 years.
Was an officer in another for about a year.
Have no desire, or time, to do so again.

Valerius, Future Paladin of Vanguard

[Skarlath]

I like that raid-loot system. It has my vote. :)

As for names, I'd prefer it to be serious, and as I said in my previous post - it would be great if it could be tailored to us as a community. :D

[Ieranii]

Serious names are fine too I'm just not very good at coming up with them. :D On this I will follow. Loam has lots of good ideas!

[Skarlath]

I quite like names that refer to the guild sort of as a collective. Combine that with the idea of waiting for Vanguard

Dormant, sleep, patience, calm, waiting, alert

The Dormant
The Dormant <Insert Plural Noun> (e.g. The Dormant Blades)
The Sleepers
The Patient
The Enduring
The Long Watch

That sort of thing

[Belisarius]

Some names I find interesting:

War to the Knife
Dehgans

I kinda dislike X of Y names

[Darydale]

How about "Dormant Flame" in reference to the volcano. I also like "The Long Watch."

[Skarlath]

How about "Dormant Flame" in reference to the volcano. I also like "The Long Watch."

Out of the ones I listed, I like "The Long Watch" the most I think. I like your "Dormant Flame" too. :)

[shiver]

I got to agree with The Long Watch name. Very nice.

Back to the subject of patrons... being a patron should be entirely voluntary. While there is a good chance I would be happy to mentor someone that is recommended to me there are certainly times when I might not feel up for doing so for whatever reasons. So it is best if people are able to mentor the people they wish to bring in. As always, there are exceptions. :p

For personal avatar information:
I am on CST. Currently I have unlimited time between Sunday afternoon and Friday night. I play less on "prime times" and weekends. Later on in the year (after May) it may be Sundays, Saturdays and most of Friday play time goes away other then that I could play until my eyes fall out.

My main will be a blacksmith, harvester, diplomat, adventure classes in that order of priority. Adventure class will be which ever one can solo the best so I can keep harvesting when I need to. Race will be determined by what race I find most attractive, it may be shallow but I don’t mind.

;)

[Belisarius]

Shiver something you might want to keep in mind when chosing an adv class. You can get to max level as a crafter doing work orders that require no items on your part except consumables (coal, etc).

And harvestables will be best when gathered by a group.


I like "The Long Watch" too.

[Ieranii]

I also like The Long Watch.

[shiver]

Yah Belisarius, but the problem imo with just doing work orders is that your not making anything useful with them in terms of items you need (other then rewards for completing work orders) .. So a person could level quickly but not have the reputation of being a good crafter (and trustworthy) nor have all the interesting recipes you might find by doing more then work orders. I enjoy crafting largely for the socail aspect of it and work orders really don't do much for that. Leveling is fine but leveling is not a priority for me, more part of a system I must follow so I can be making nice things for people to use.

Harvesting is the same, I think it would be best if I kept my harvesting skills at the highest level I can per my level. This way I don’t have to ‘grind’ out a lot of harvesting to do a good job of it at the higher levels. It may be that I will have to group to get any real harvesting done, that would be unfortunate since I don’t feel based on past gaming experience that most adventure classes find the idea of spending hunting time harvesting that exciting. Basically I think that in a good game a person with a much higher then normal amount of time will be able to balance out against people with less time who group more.

Guess we will see how it all ends out.
:)

[Loampounder]

The Long Watch is nice but vague. What would be explain to people after we start the game?

But I like the "Watch" idea. Reminds me of a picture by Keith Parkinson (http://www.keithparkinson.com/gallery.php?icid=1&nextid=10&img=kpnorthw). How about something like "Silent Watch" "Sigil Sentinel" "Western Watch" (if Kojan focused), "Desert Watch" (Qalia) or "Skeletal Watch" (Thresta). Silent Watch could hint at a secret organization like the Harpers.

If you want Sigil related, how about "Forum Court Elite"? Watchers of the Sekret Sauce. Sekret Watchers. Hunters of the Sekret Sauce. Fellowship of the Sekret Sauce. Saucy Sekrets.

[Skarlath]

By the way, Valerius, feel free to get stuck in and state your stance on all the issues we're discussing! Even if you are only mildly interested and will end up not joining us, any extra input is good! :D


I sort of like the vagueness of The Long Watch, it makes it little more flexible. We don't really want a name that ties us to a continent, and i'd prefer to have a name that is more "in character" and hinting at our forum community as opposed to using Sigil or Forum in the name.

If anyone was to ask "Where did your name 'The Long Watch' come from?" we could easily tell them that it relates to the pre-release community and the long wait we endured before Vanguard was finally released. :)

Edit: Another idea, and sort of the opposite "The Long Watch" - "Tempus Fugit" which means 'Time Flies'. Of course relating to the enjoyable Vanguard community: Time until release flies by when you are having fun. :)

It would also give us an awesome guild logo: Tempus Fugit (http://www.prometheus-imports.com/ms541time-flies.jpg)

[Darydale]

That's a really cool symbol, but fugit is kind-of a weird word, hehehe

[Loampounder]

I like Tempus Fugit, but would that make us the fugitives?

[Skarlath]

heehee, pronounce it "Few-jit", and it probably sounds a little better. :)

I was having a play around in photoshop - i'm no photoshop artist by any stretch of the imagination, but i'll post some stuff a bit later this evening. :)

[Skarlath]

To see them fullsize, click the thumbnail, then click the picture on the page that opens, then click back. :D (sometimes it doesn't load as fullsize for me)

http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8045/banner3back3jpeg6ge.th.jpg (http://img118.imageshack.us/my.php?image=banner3back3jpeg6ge.jpg)

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/1709/pillarbanner4back3jpeg8gq.th.jpg (http://img495.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pillarbanner4back3jpeg8gq.jpg)

http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/8955/bannerback3jpeg6fm.th.jpg (http://img495.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bannerback3jpeg6fm.jpg)

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5778/pillarbannerback3jpeg4lt.th.jpg (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pillarbannerback3jpeg4lt.jpg)

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6346/bannerback4jpeg3bb.th.jpg (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bannerback4jpeg3bb.jpg)

Edit: Oh, one more. Bigger wingspan.

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/288/pillarbanner5back3jpeg1qp.th.jpg (http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pillarbanner5back3jpeg1qp.jpg)

[/edit]

That's a bunch of what i've been up to. I used 4 different backgrounds (only two shown above) and in some had a helmet+spyglass, and sometimes parchment.

Even if "Tempus Fugit" isn't our chosen guild name, that might be a cool logo? Either way - any bits you guys like at all? Perhaps we can trick someone into doing nicer, cleaner versions of any ideas we have. :D

I'll just add that I don't like the writing very much at the moment. I'll change it at some point. :)

[Ieranii]

I like the Tempus Fugit with the winged symbol & columns...if we were to go with "The Long Watch" the symbol seems kind of off. What about a transparent set of mysterious looking eyes with the logo "The Long Watch" underneath?

[Skarlath]

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/9199/tempusfugit1jpeg2pf.th.jpg (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tempusfugit1jpeg2pf.jpg)


There's the text changed to Tempus Fugit instead

Edit:

Perhaps a nicer colour for the text, and I made the pillars a little lighter

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6921/tempusfugit3jpeg2vo.th.jpg (http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tempusfugit3jpeg2vo.jpg)

My mystical eyes didn't come out very well. Perhaps they're a little beyond my ability for the moment. :p I'll give them another go later though.

[Loampounder]

Beautiful. I actually like the columnless view, as it seems more open. Ani, Shar, should we just vote right here and now or wait for more input? :D

We have:

Name ideas
Logo
Mission to have fun, learn, and build a community in a forum
Patron/Apprentice system to support eachother

Looking good so far.

[shiver]

I think holding off on picking a name and stuff for a bit is not a bad idea. (Though I really like the ideas and artwork so far)

Ok, please bare with me because this will sound cheesy.

By working to still plan to make a guild more people will offer input and ideas. By starting a guild then you join the ranks of the other 70 guilds most of whom have less then twenty members. By continue to plan a guild and waiting patiently for more SV community people to chime in the ideas here can continue to expand and grow more easily then if people feel like they might be committing to an already made guild. This also gives the shyer members a little more time to feel like they can speak up.

I know it is really just a matter of perception but I think right now it might make a big difference. I guess all I am saying is no rush. I think people should keep talking, chiming in and gathering thoughts. It sounds like there will definitely be a guild made from this community and we all want it to be an awesome one so taking awhile is not bad.

I do think that adding a little message to the OVF for or a couple other places to let people know some of the SV community is working on a guild idea might be good. It could bring more traffic to the site (never that bad of a thing) and who knows another brilliant and fun person might show up.

Anyhow I guess it comes down to that I think planning the guild is great but right now making one could wait a month or two.

:D

The Long Watch is still my top pick for a name though. I think the hourglass works fine for watch and the wings could always have a rivet added to make them look like a watch band or something. :p Then again maybe I was out side in the cold to long today.

[Loampounder]

I know it is really just a matter of perception but I think right now it might make a big difference. I guess all I am saying is no rush. I think people should keep talking, chiming in and gathering thoughts. It sounds like there will definitely be a guild made from this community and we all want it to be an awesome one so taking awhile is not bad.
Very true. My statement was more of a rhetorical thing, anyway.

[Jaymend]

Guys (& Gals!),

I just spent a while reading this very long thread, and I have to say that I am intrigued. Lots of good ideas, and most of them remind me of my guild back in EQ. Sounds like it will be a lot of fun. I consider myself a "core" game, in accordance with Brad's definition that is. I certainly would be interested in getting involved. Looking forward to talking more about this possibility and seeing what happens!:)

[Skarlath]

That's a very good point. To all newcomers to the discussion we should make it clear that nothing is set in stone - everything is up for discussion and will benefit from as many people doing so as possible. :)

[Skarlath]

I just can't stop myself playing! :eek:

Loam mentioned it being nice to have a more open view, so here's one with the pillars pushed out a bit more.

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/5715/tempusfugit4jpeg0fl.th.jpg (http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tempusfugit4jpeg0fl.jpg)

And the same one using TLW:

http://img344.imageshack.us/img344/6730/tlw1jpeg2wl.th.jpg (http://img344.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tlw1jpeg2wl.jpg)


Shall I go post something in offtopic on the OVF? See if we can drag a few eyes this way :)

[Ieranii]

Quick question, how many people are we wanting to start with?

I guess what I'm wondering is do we want to start the game with a whole guild already built or do we want to start the game with a small group and build it in game as we group with people we like?

Keeping in mind the ovf is up to almost 50k registered and many in the last few months. How open is the process? Are we accepting all comers at this point or do we start with only people we are familiar with. When do we start having an application process?

Personally if we didn't officially declare a guild until launch I'd be ok with that. I went through a pre-release EQ2 guild that was almost forty members at launch. Within the first three months we had dropped to fifteen members due to folks not liking the game, not being able to run it ect.

So, what are the other pro's and con's of building a full guild roster before launch? Is that what you guys want to do and how many people are we wanting total?

Will we have a membership cap (that can be changed tweaked as needed)?


Just wondering. :)

[elihup]

I know that nothing is set in stone yet, but why would a non raiding focused guild use a dkp system? I dont consider myself a raider, but I like to raid on occasion, and on those occasions I like the chance to recieve loot. Why should a person like myself raid at all with this system? Why not just call yourselves a hardcore raiding guild if you are going to do this? Scrap the dkp system in favor of a NBG with /random system and I might be interested.

[Skarlath]

I'm not overly keen on having a massive guild at any point, let alone release. A successful and desirable one, yes, but like we already mentioned - we want to make sure those we let in will fit nicely with everyone else within the guild.

I think posting on the OVF is a good idea - there will be other community vets waiting for a guild like this to come along. The more input we can get from likeminded people, the better we can become. Just because we prompt OVF visitors to stop by does not mean we're going to let anyone in. Really its just an opportunity to make sure those who would be interested know about us and what we hope to achieve. :)

I guess we can assume that we will need a rough minimum of 10 people to create the guild. Aiming for that as our minimum, we can recruit from there whoever we feel would be an asset to the guild. Keeping it small, sturdy and steady leading up to release is sensible - we wouldn't want the time to disillusion any members before we even get to play together. :)

[Loampounder]

I began something in OVF in off topics as sort of a discussion-y way of broaching the subject. It introduces the topic and links to this thread but says that we are still discussing ideas. When things get a bit more firm, we can announce again.

Size - I imagine we do not want a small guild, as we intent to be diverse participation - crafters, diplomats, adventurers from across the world, etc. Also, a community is best with larger numbers of people. By promoting as a forum-based community before release, we can actually look at the history of posts and let people in based on that. For example, we can let "anyone" join while still having a minimum forum participation (here or on OVF) to join. By promoting through forums, the people that hear about it will be forum users. OVF does not have 50,000 participants - only a fraction posts or follow posts.

I say, have an open forum until we are ready to start the guild, then have anyone involved (i.e. make some posts or express interest) sign in as a founder. The more the merrier so anyone who can point to OVF posts or SVF posts can join.

Pros- more poeple in a community makes for a more active community, more viewpoints to help form the guild, a larger community (pre-release) will help maintain a good environment during The Long Watch.

Cons - non-community minded people may join (but why join if they do not care?) People may only come for the witty banter and then leave us

I would think that we do not want a membership cap to avoid the attrition that will come with release (and people spread their wings in game rather than talk in a forum). Am I missing a downside to a large guild?

[Skarlath]

I know that nothing is set in stone yet, but why would a non raiding focused guild use a dkp system? I dont consider myself a raider, but I like to raid on occasion, and on those occasions I like the chance to recieve loot. Why should a person like myself raid at all with this system? Why not just call yourselves a hardcore raiding guild if you are going to do this? Scrap the dkp system in favor of a NBG with /random system and I might be interested.

Hey Elihup. :)

I understand what you mean, but the trouble is that none of us have experience with the game and so we don't know what raiding/raid loot is going to be like. We aren't likely to be focused raiding guild, and so perhaps DKP isn't called for. However the allocation by council on top of a DKP system sort of prepares us for the possibility of rewarding those who put more effort into raiding a little more, whilst still allowing a nice even distribution of loot for the good of the guild.

Until we know more about the game, we cannot tell if you are entirely right, or whether a DKP system is best, or any middleground in between. But I think you can be sure that from what people have said so far a fairly even distribution of loot to keep everyone happy and the guild well equipped is something we all want. :)

So are you interested in perhaps getting involved, or did you just stop by to add some input (which is definitely welcome :))?

Feel free to stick around and chat things through with us. :)

[Loampounder]

Hey, look, it's Eli...

/em tosses DKP system out the window...

Welcome aboad, Eli!

Seriously, I think that "what is your raid loot policy" is one of those questions that people jump on when they start a guild. Why? Loot is a big question (based on our experience in mature games), and people many times don't know what else to talk about. Does a community-based guild with a wide range of classes/playstyles expect to have a problem with loot in its many raids (in a game not yet released)? Not likely, but it's something to talk about. Silky Venom is focusing on getting to raid stuff; for them it may be weeks/months but for us it will definitely be months before we see raids, let alone have people actually accumulating raid points. I can see it - come Christmas I will have three raid points and be competing with the guild ubercleric who would have four raid points. Yeah, not that big of a deal.

In short, don't let DKP's turn you away from a friendly guild. If you are non-hardcore, you (like us) probably have months of fun gameplay before you even see a serious raid. Where else could you have more fun that with a group of forum fluffers like these?

[shiver]

Since we want people from this community it makes sense to be looking for people who are repeat posters on the boards. The game won’t be out at least until July (I hope) so I would say that a lot more of the 50k people from OVF will make it this direction. A one time post on this thread doesn’t give a good impression of what the person is like or looking for. More posting around the forums in general is better. I agree that a gentle invitation to friends, forum people and the community at large to drop in on this thread is good.

I think about a month before release at the start of open beta (if there is one) is a good time to make the guild official. If people get too antsy before then and say there were a good solid 20 people who want to join then it could get started up then. Open beta tends to be a nice time for recruiting people since you can take that next step and get to know them in the game.

I think we should define as what people think is a large guide and what people this is a small one. If I include alts and non-active players then it goes like this:
Huge guild 700 plus
Large guild 400
Med large 300
Normal 200
Small less then 100.

In order to decide what size of guild this could be it might be good to take some time and all come up with a common description (in numbers) of what kind of guild people are thinking of. Sure there is wiggle room in the descriptions but when I think small guilds I think 80 people, some people consider that large.

I would guess that once the game is release you can normally plan on losing a third of them in the first month and adding more then you lost. This settles out normally around the end of the month and you then have a true base for the long term members of the guild. I think the continent with the least amount of guild members on it will lose the most. It is hard to stay loyal to a guild of people you never have gotten to hunt with. (hard not impossible.)

DKP
I think the reason for a DKP system in a non-raiding was to prevent NBG issues for those really phat items. With the type of community people seem to want I don’t think a NBG system is needed either. That would be one of the things that maybe can get tested in later stage of beta or have a plan and back up plan. Lots of non-raiding guilds raid so having some clear way to deal with loot is needed. I think a clear set of rules for NBG is needed anyhow and can work just as well for raid items. Not everyone feels this way some people hate it and some love it. By going DKP a guild will lose some people and gain others.
I do think it is too early in the beta to come up with the best DKP system for guilds that want to go with them. Too much seems unknown at this point. Still, ideas of what might be best are good.

[elihup]

Hey Elihup. :)

I understand what you mean, but the trouble is that none of us have experience with the game and so we don't know what raiding/raid loot is going to be like. We aren't likely to be focused raiding guild, and so perhaps DKP isn't called for. However the allocation by council on top of a DKP system sort of prepares us for the possibility of rewarding those who put more effort into raiding a little more, whilst still allowing a nice even distribution of loot for the good of the guild.

Until we know more about the game, we cannot tell if you are entirely right, or whether a DKP system is best, or any middleground in between. But I think you can be sure that from what people have said so far a fairly even distribution of loot to keep everyone happy and the guild well equipped is something we all want. :)

So are you interested in perhaps getting involved, or did you just stop by to add some input (which is definitely welcome :))?

Feel free to stick around and chat things through with us. :)
Well, I definatly like the community here and think that the idea of a guild based around that sounds promising. You are right about having to wait to see how things flesh out, before deciding on anything final. I just want to see that if you are not targeting a specific playstlye, that all playstlyes are rewarded equally. This means that if someone only attends one raid ever, for whatever reason, on that one raid IMO, they should have just as good of a chance as anybody else at recieving loot. Just as someone who mostly soloes but decides to group up is not excluded from the loot pool because they are not a regular grouper. Overall it sounds like it might be something that I would be interested in. I am currently with a guild, but things arent quite fleshing out there like I had hoped and it looks like I may be searching for a new gang.

[Skarlath]

Small is "Less that 100"?! :eek:

I would have thought it would be more like:

Small - 20 or less
Moderate - 20-50
Medium - 50-70
Large - 70-120
Very large - 120-170
Colossal - 170+

[shiver]

"Looks at Skarlath" rofl. That would be exactly why I think we need to figure out what the size of guilds truly means when we are talking about them. hehee

Speaking of terminology and speaking of things having the same meaning… What NBG priority do most people use? Here is what I more or less used when we actually needed one. Keep in mind that the idea is to be fair, not to prevent cheating and griefing. If the person has an on going loot issue then they must be in the wrong guild. (ok, that is what I think the idea is lol)

1. people in the group see who it is biggest upgrade for and who can use it atm
2. people in the group that it will be the biggest upgrade for with in the next two weeks
3. Roll off for the item. People can choose to skip the roll off and offer it to the guild, or just give it to person ‘x’.
4. If a member of the group is looking for items for alts then that should be mentioned before the group starts hunting.

[Valerius]

By the way, Valerius, feel free to get stuck in and state your stance on all the issues we're discussing! Even if you are only mildly interested and will end up not joining us, any extra input is good! :D

Actually, I'm more than mildly interested :D , and so far most of the ideas that have been floated around seem pretty solid and good building blocks for any real attempt at starting a guild.

While I won't say that I'm "not interested" in loot (I like loot as much as the next guy), I find discussions concerning loot and the distribution of it, tedious and distasteful. I realize that a fair and balanced system is crucial to guild harmony and cohesiveness and therefore necessary, I just hate taking part in its creation.

The "best" system I was ever involved with was where the guild leader and officers decided who got what, based on what benefited the guild as a whole, more. I know that "system" seems ripe for corruption or cronyism, but if everyone trusts the GL and his officers, and they (GL and officers) are truly looking out to better the guild, then it works wonderfully. It also helps to have mature people in the guild who aren't put off the second they get looked over for a specific loot, especially if it's something that can be obtained at another time.

I know that nothing is set in stone yet, but why would a non raiding focused guild use a dkp system? I dont consider myself a raider, but I like to raid on occasion, and on those occasions I like the chance to recieve loot. Why should a person like myself raid at all with this system? Why not just call yourselves a hardcore raiding guild if you are going to do this? Scrap the dkp system in favor of a NBG with /random system and I might be interested.

I sorta have to agree with Eli on this.

[elihup]

"Looks at Skarlath" rofl. That would be exactly why I think we need to figure out what the size of guilds truly means when we are talking about them. hehee

Speaking of terminology and speaking of things having the same meaning… What NBG priority do most people use? Here is what I more or less used when we actually needed one. Keep in mind that the idea is too be fair not to prevent cheating and griefing. If the person has an on going loot issue then they must be in the wrong guild.

1. people in the group see who it is biggest upgrade for and who can use it atm
2. people in the group that it will be the biggest upgrade for with in the next two weeks
3. Roll off for the item. People can choose to skip the roll off and offer it to the guild, or just give it to person ‘x’.
4. If a member of the group is looking for items for alts then that should be mentioned before the group starts hunting.
I have always played like this:
This is for items that are not garbage.

1. If it is usable and an upgrade, you are allowed to roll.
(note that if it is a big upgrade for someone else, and I could use it but not a big upgrade, I will usually let them have it, but that is up to the people involved)
2. If nobody can use it, everybody can roll for it if they want.
3. You cant need items for alts.

For garbage items, I have done several things from selling to vendor and splitting the coin to taking turns looting garbage.

[Valerius]

I have always played like this:
This is for items that are not garbage.

1. If it is usable and an upgrade, you are allowed to roll.
(note that if it is a big upgrade for someone else, and I could use it but not a big upgrade, I will usually let them have it, but that is up to the people involved)
2. If nobody can use it, everybody can roll for it if they want.
3. You cant need items for alts.

For garbage items, I have done several things from selling to vendor and splitting the coin to taking turns looting garbage.

I like this too. Just becomes a nightmare to monitor and control, but so does just about any loot system.

[Skarlath]

I'm about to go to bed, but i'll just throw a little something into the loot discussion (Sorry Val :p)

It has been said that in Vanguard you will be wanting to keep multiple sets of armour.

This doesn't change things a huge amount, but is an extra thing to think about. Is "needing that so I have a fire resistance set" as bad as wanting it for alts? I don't think so, because most people are gonna want a fire resistance set.

In most situations you would probably have to play it by ear - Skarlath already has a frost and acid resistance breastplates, does he need a fire one too? Eli on the other hand only has a suit resistant against grass-stains, so maybe he should have it.

:)

I'll catch up on your chatter in the morning. :D

[elihup]

I'm about to go to bed, but i'll just throw a little something into the loot discussion (Sorry Val :p)

It has been said that in Vanguard you will be wanting to keep multiple sets of armour.

This doesn't change things a huge amount, but is an extra thing to think about. Is "needing that so I have a fire resistance set" as bad as wanting it for alts? I don't think so, because most people are gonna want a fire resistance set.

In most situations you would probably have to play it by ear - Skarlath already has a frost and acid resistance breastplates, does he need a fire one too? Eli on the other hand only has a suit resistant against grass-stains, so maybe he should have it.

:)

I'll catch up on your chatter in the morning. :D
Hmmm, I havent thought about additional armor sets yet, but that is certainly going to throw another wrench into the loot game mix.

After tentatively thinking this over, I think that even if you only want an item as a piece of backup gear, if it is something that you theoretically would use in a certain situation, you should have the right to roll on it, even if another player in the group would use that as their primary piece. Of course you always have the option to let the other guy have it. My reasoning is that you shouldnt be penalized for putting in more time equipping yourself than someone else has.

[Jaymend]

You really find out the true nature of people when loot is involved. I remember countless times in my EQ groupings where people would win the roll and end up giving the loot to someone who needed it more. That really says something, if you ask me. And I also remember the ones that would win the roll and go and sell the item to have money for themselves rather than give the item to someone who would use it.

If I'm to be in a guild with others, I want to be in a guild composed of the former type of people rather than the later.

All in all, I don't care what system is used as long as there isn't drama involved, hehehe.

[Belisarius]

I don't have a problem with anything that's been brought up in this thread. My main focus is the community. How we do that is open to (obviously) much debate. But the fact that we're discussing it is good.

Seems like there's a lotta love on this thread, let's turn it around, what would be a definite reason for you not to join The Long WatchTM ?

I think the choice of a full on PVP server would kill it for me, 3-sided war, or faction based PvP would be OK with me, but not necessary.

[Loampounder]

Resistance sets will probably be common (I assume so because Brad et al keep mentioning them) so I think the idea of "prime equipment is what you wear" will be old-fashion soon. We need to get used to if a character can use it, he/she should just roll.

When I say "use it", I expect people to link that to class function. I don't want to see a mage role for a shield. I take that understanding to be the core of NBG, but just had to make sure it was said.

I don't want to include any mention of loot for alt. If the alt wants loot, fight with that alt.

You really find out the true nature of people when loot is involved. I remember countless times in my EQ groupings where people would win the roll and end up giving the loot to someone who needed it more. That really says something, if you ask me.
I think we need to work this sentiment into our charter somehow - the real honor in a character is shown more in the loot rolls they do not take than the loot rolls they do participate in. Like Jaymend, I want to be a part of a community that willingly excludes themselves from loot rolls or gives loot to more deserving people. I cannot say enough how much I respect things like that.

[Loampounder]

Belis, I don't like PvP servers either, but I am really worried about actual play schedules within the guild. It's not that it's a killer, but it would be very hard to hold a guild togther if it does not play together. The saving grace is that it will be fun to share common experiences in the forum, post game play.

(Loampounder notes that Skar goes to bed at 3:30 in the afternoon :D )

[Boogenhagen]

You guys seem to be trying to put together something that's pretty similar to what I'm trying to find.

I've got some thoughts as well but it's late or early... Whatever, I should be asleep either way. So I'm going to sleep on them. I'll be back at a less ridiculous time. Try not to let the anticipation kill you because I'd feel really bad if you all died because of me on Valentine's day.:(

Also I'd be afraid that your zombies would come back and get me.

[Jaymend]

I just realized while sitting here at work that I drafted up a whole bunch of guild "rules" or charter a few years ago while playing EQ. It had pretty much all my ideas of how a guild should be run. I think I still have it somewhere on my hard drive. I'll search when I get home and post some of my thoughts.

[Skarlath]

(Loampounder notes that Skar goes to bed at 3:30 in the afternoon :D )

And I slept in right up until 10am the next day! :eek::D:p


Serverwise... I'm not too sure on Silky Venom's plans at the moment. I shall most probably be following them, even if that means to a PvP server. :confused: If they play on a PvE server (which is the norm for hardcore raiding guilds) then we can situate ourselves on whatever server that may be. :)

Boog - feel free to post your thoughts as soon as you wake up... i'm not sure how much longer I can hold the anticipation in. :eek:

[Jaymend]

Serverwise... I'm not too sure on Silky Venom's plans at the moment. I shall most probably be following them, even if that means to a PvP server. :confused:

Eeek! I'm not a fan of PvP at all. I'm definitely going PvE, maybe even an alternate rule-set server (like 1 character per account perhaps). Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

[Dreamer]

First, I'd like to state my interest in this theoretical guild.

Additionally, I have a few comments.

DKP vs. Loot Council – I’ve been a member of guilds with both these loot distribution methods. I was an officer in the guild that used a loot council and found myself on the loot council quite often. I prefer DKP much, much more because of its impartiality.

If someone disagrees with loot distribution when you are using DKP, it is the system they disagree with, not a guildmate. Relatively calm discussions of modifying the system can be discussed amongst members who seek change.

If someone disagrees with the loot council, they disagree with officers’ or other guild members’ judgment. This tends to get more heated and divisive. Members can feel left out, misunderstood, etc.

DKP has its problems, but I think it’s healthier for a guild.

Vassal System – This screams needless complexity to me. Is there anyway to follow the KISS principle, while still maintaining the intent?

Why not have a few recruitment officers who are responsible for being recruits’ advocates? They make sure that potential recruits understand the guilding process. They also help explain guild expectations and requirements. In addition, they are in charge of introducing recruits to members, helping them find inter-guild groups, in generally are friendly and answer any questions. And finally they will act on the recruits behalf to make sure they are voted on when they’ve met recruitment requirements, and will speak on the recruits behalf (when warranted) in any recruitment discussions.

This method has the additional benefit of “standardizing” recruitment so that the recruitment process doesn’t depend as much on an individual guild member’s attention to these details (and desire or ability to follow guild recruitment policy). Every potential recruit will therefore go through a similar (and therefore, fair) recruitment process.

I wrote a recruitment policy for the guild wherein I was an officer. I can provide a copy of that if/when desired.

[Loampounder]

Try not to let the anticipation kill you because I'd feel really bad if you all died because of me on Valentine's day.:(
It has been Sigil's main job for years to teach me patience. This is why they will not let me into beta. I don't doubt that you have some great sekret sauce information that we will just love, but I am too battle-hardened to die from The Long Watch.

[Dreamer]

Skarlath:

Is it good idea to edit the OP with people's names who say they are interested? As people view that post, they may be encouraged to participate in the thread because they recognize names of community members. (Which seems to be one of the goals of the guild.)

[shiver]

guild killersLet’s see, things that would make me not join a guild. The top two would be a perma-death server or a PvP server of any kind. And guild with mandatory play times, hours, raids or whatever. The “if you log on while we are doing ‘X’ you need to be doing ‘X’” is not for me. The other things are just rules and attitudes.

NBG
NBG is now looking something like this: ?
1. If it is usable and an upgrade, you are allowed to roll.
2. If it is usable and a good piece of back up armor, you are allowed to roll
2. If nobody can use it, everybody can roll for it if they want.
(at any time people can just bow out of a roll or hand it to someone or whatever)

I still say this would work for raids. *wink* I think it comes down to the fact that I feel that the people on the raid should get the items from the raid. Not people who didn’t go on the raid. By having a DKP system you are really forcing people to raid so that when there is a raid they care about they have a chance to bid on an item. Not a good system I think. I think having officers hand out loot is even a worse idea though. Officers are people and it would be incredibly hard and stressful to be certain you were being fair if you were giving out the loot. I think this would be a guild breaker idea for me. Loot is such a pain in the … only had one guild were it was an issue and we kicked that person from the guild. lol

Patrons
I don’t think the patron system is complex. Pretty much people are just willing to take responsibility for the people they brought to the guild. I think it comes from that fact that I am used to larger guilds. When you have 10, 50 or 200 new people in a guild that is a huge strain on the recruitment officers. It is nice to have people take responsibility for the people they encourage to join, also that means that people don’t get recruited on a whim. I just see Officer burn-out happen too often and like to spread out the ‘joy’ of the work.

Pre-made guild ideas
I definitely think people should post ideas or past things they had writing on guilds. The more ideas the better. :D

[Skarlath]

DKP has its problems, but I think it’s healthier for a guild.

This is sort of why I mentioned using a council system stacked on top of a DKP system - it helps impartiality.

I think we need to get a particular raid loot principle straight so we can be clear we are all on the same page:

I believe that if you raid more, and therefore having been waiting and waiting for a particular item, you should recieve it over someone who doesn't raid as frequently, providing both of your needs are reasonable similar.

The trouble with that last part is what if Shiver has lots of great armour and alternative sets, but raids a lot and so needs all that. As opposed to casual raider Loam who has only one main set. Shiver could quite possibly put the armour to better use...

I'm waffling a bit. I'll try and lock things down a little.

I believe that from the opinions stated thusfar, we would like to see a NBG attitude. However I feel we should have a system that records attendance to raids and such so that those who put in more effort don't get entirely overlooked. This recording system wouldn't be the be-all and end-all, as it could then be down to officers to use both the cases put forward by those wanting the loot with reference to how much effort each person has put into getting the item.

As we said, we want likeminded people who will want to selflessly put the guilds needs first in any case. Having a more impartial system along with trusting members to do the right thing and say "No, you have it" is where we want to head.

Would having any degree of letting particular officers decide who gets what put a strain on those players? Yes, it is stressful. However we can't have the best of both worlds - do we want rewards entirely based on attendance? No - we want rewards based on NBG and that will have to be decided/voted on at some stage of the handing out.

Why not have a few recruitment officers who are responsible for being recruits’ advocates?

I don't think having recruitment officers has the same effect though. Here's another anecdote from my WoW guild :p

I was the guild leader, as I already mentioned, but I was most definitely also the highranking-member most in favour of community spirit and helping out newbies and such. The trouble was, lots if not most of the members of the guild weren't overly excited about the prospect of helping lowbies complete quests in the Barrens. A couple of other members and I ended up doing all of the helping on our own, whilst other members did there own thing. This just doesn't work well.

I feel that using a mentor system allows the effort to be spread out, so that everyone is contributing similar amounts. If we are all likeminded players then we all want the same thing anyway, right? We want an atmosphere were those of lower levels are helped when the need it, questions answered and quests assisted. If we distribute recruits throughout the guild it also keeps everyone involved. No one feels pushed to the side - if they want some responsibility they just need a noob to call their own.

Finally, mentors are not just helpful when you first join the guild. It is likely your mentor will be a higher level than you, and it will most probably stay that way as you both level. This means your mentor can constantly be helping you by passing down items, information and helping you out with tricksy quests or dungeons. And of course if anyone has a problem with something guild-related, they know who to go to. Hopefully their mentor/apprentice relationship will be strong enough for them not to worry about bothering their mentor by voicing concerns.

With the traditional "Recruitment Officers" system, once a new member is no longer considered a "new recruit" they can often just get cut adrift, on their own within the guild. You want to have every member taking part and feeling part of the guild - if any member doesn't then they are much more likely to jump ship.

I feel the mentor system isn't all that complicated, but allows the guild to stay much much happier.

I wrote a recruitment policy for the guild wherein I was an officer. I can provide a copy of that if/when desired.

Definitely, i'd love to see it.

Eeek! I'm not a fan of PvP at all. I'm definitely going PvE, maybe even an alternate rule-set server (like 1 character per account perhaps). Guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

Me neither, but I want to be able to play with the people i've got to know through working at Silky Venom. If SVguild went to a PvP server then I would probably give it a shot, and that would most likely mean leaving my position in this guild we are talking over... However we don't know their server choice just yet, and i'm guessing that a guild that wants to "do the content first" would choose to play on a PvE server, with less distractions.



By the way, good idea Dreamer - i'll stick up people's names.

[Loampounder]

I think that talking about pros and cons of loot systems gives the idea of getting loot more attention than its due and puts an overimportance on loot. In four years of playing EQ, I never got a raid loot item. <shrug> I think I had better fun because of it.

I love the mentoring system, particularly the intentions. Do we want to promote that giving attitude through rewards? Titles, special forum sig, forum titles, ect.? I suggest small, non-loot tokens that could be shareable in a forum.

On of the most defining times of my EQ career was a small episode involving this giving attitude. We had a small group of friends who adventured and kidded together for the fun of it. My best friend and I liked to show others around the lands and try risky thinks (we once took an ogre into Kaladim to try and improve his faction by turning in Crushbone belts, hard to fit an invisible orge through those hallways) and my friend's bard abilities were always used and loved. He loved to show off his bardfeet (selo's). It was a playful game between my sow and his selos. One day, an ogre friend oepns up a trade window and hands my friend a Mistmoore Drum. In the early days this was HUGE, and my friend (once he got over the shock) loved it. It became a focus point within the group for two years.

PS - Skar, just noticed your forum title. Yup, definately a fluffinator. LOL

[Skarlath]

I think you are right about the loot discussion. :) Though for those of you who haven't said your piece yet, and may still want to (such as Boog), feel free to post it. :)

Another thing to talk about is themes. Many guilds, even if they aren't roleplaying guilds, adopt a sort of "themed" attitude. Perhaps a little backstory, their general alignment in the world, that sort of thing. What do you guys think? Where would we place ourselves as a guild in the scheme of good and evil? :)

[elihup]

I still say this would work for raids. *wink* I think it comes down to the fact that I feel that the people on the raid should get the items from the raid. Not people who didn’t go on the raid. By having a DKP system you are really forcing people to raid so that when there is a raid they care about they have a chance to bid on an item. Not a good system I think. I think having officers hand out loot is even a worse idea though. Officers are people and it would be incredibly hard and stressful to be certain you were being fair if you were giving out the loot. I think this would be a guild breaker idea for me. Loot is such a pain in the … only had one guild were it was an issue and we kicked that person from the guild. lol

I totally agree with this. With DKP you are pretty much forced to raid a lot if you expect to ever get anything out of any raid. If I wanted to do this, I would just join a raiding guild. The person who raids a lot will tend to get more with a strict NBG system anyway so I think it works for everybody in the long run here. The more frequent raider gets more opportunity for loot because they raid more and the infrequent raider still has a chance to get loot when they do decide to raid.

[Jaymend]

Another thing to talk about is themes. Many guilds, even if they aren't role playing guilds, adopt a sort of "themed" attitude. Perhaps a little back story, their general alignment in the world, that sort of thing. What do you guys think? Where would we place ourselves as a guild in the scheme of good and evil? :)

That's a tough one! Especially since we'll all be starting from different continents and will all be different races. It certainly will be interesting to see how we come together in-game and perhaps the manner by which we meet might even help to determine our story. In general, I tend to lean toward Chaotic Good (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(role-playing_games)#Chaotic_Good) alignment personally, but never really thought about an alignment for an entire guild. Now you have me thinking! Hmmmm...:p

[shiver]

“Where would we place ourselves as a guild in the scheme of good and evil?”

I have to be one of the good guys. Bad things have happened when guilds I belonged to stray too far to the bad side. I am not saying a guild should be a doormat but having fun at the deliberate expense of others is not for me. It is really easy for a guild to go from respected to hated. Just one person can drag the rest with them. I guess it has to do with the fact you don’t have to look people in the eye when you screw them over.

The best guilds are the ones that when they show up to a place you’re hunting at you don’t worry that they are going to ruin your camp, jump in line or harvest that node. These are the guilds that help the community, have events that people can join in on, and pretty much if they are going to hold a ‘raffle’ for the Vorpal Sword of Naked Bunny Slaying people trust them to do it honestly.

Yah, that is the type of guild I like best. Still, a theme would be cool. We can go with Pirates and donuts cause those beat Ninjas and Pies every day of the week. Lol, just kidding. I can't think of a cool theme yet.

[Dreamer]

Sorry for the following book, but here is the example policy I offered...

This is an example recruitment policy offered to serve as an example and a springboard, not as any suggestion of what a final policy would look like. Founder membership will, by necessity, be different, but should embody the same spirit.
This was originally authored by me, but others contributed to the final policy. The guild name has been changed to TLW (The Long Watch). References to a defunct guild (I still miss it) website were removed.

Policy Introduction

TLW is a unique guild. Our strength comes from our membership. Our members are good players, know how to cooperate to achieve goals, and are supportive of others in and outside of TLW. We do this while maintaining the spirit behind EQ, enjoyment of a game and of a community.
TLW is also an increasingly successful guild. We believe that others who share our goals, sense of community, and desire to have fun will further contribute as we enter new raiding zones and slay new and more challenging mobs. TLW, in turn, will support member players by helping with personal quests and goals.

Policy Statement

In the interest of maintaining the supportive environment within TLW, we will use the following guidelines when recruiting new members:
An applicant must register on TLW’s website.
An applicant must fill out an electronic application on TLW’s website. The application includes a list of standard questions and a free-form essay where an applicant can further describe him/herself and elaborate on his/her desire to join TLW.
TLW does not have an absolute level restriction for applicants. However, a potential applicant should be aware that most members’ main toons are Level 50 or over. New members under the level of 50 can expect support, encouragement and help from other TLW members. Additionally a new member under Level 50 will be able to organize their own events for the completion of quests, etc. However, many general raids have a minimum level restriction of 50 or over.
An applicant must be on an EQ account that is enabled for the following expansions: Kunark, Velious, Luclin, and PoP. LoY and LDoN are not required, but are encouraged.
Alternates of existing TLW members are eligible for automatic membership at Level 5.
Applications will only be progressed after a personal referral from a TLW member. The referrer must be a member in good standing for two months or more. The referrer must have DIRECT experience with the recruit in-game or in real-life. The referrer must indicate his or her referral on the applicant’s electronic application.
All electronic applications are viewable by TLW’s membership. TLW’s membership will have approximately one week to comment on an application. This review period is intended to give existing members with knowledge of a potential recruit a chance to be heard whether in favor or not in favor of a recruit’s eventual membership.
The recruit should be scheduled to attend at least one guild event with one or more guild officer(s) present. Ideally, this should occur during the one-week application review period.
All guild members will have an opportunity to vote after completion of the interview review period and attendance of a guild event. In order to become a member 11 votes must be cast by guild members. No less than 80% of the votes cast must be in favor of the applicant’s eventual membership.
The applicant may withdraw an application at any time without bias and with the ability to reapply at a later date.
A rejected application disallows future consideration as an applicant. There is no appeal.
To be fair to all potential members, this policy MUST apply to ALL individuals seeking TLW membership. No exceptions.

Recruitment FAQs

· What is DIRECT experience with a potential recruit?
An example of direct experience is grouping with an individual several times or more in a pick-up group. Another example is a relative or friend from real life. Basically, you can recommend anyone who you’ve had the opportunity to speak and play with, and who you consider a good player and more importantly, a good person. DON’T refer someone who you don’t know. Explain to them that TLW accepts recruits from member’s recommendations only.
· What questions will be asked during the application?
The standard questions are:
What is your main toon, and what level is he/she?
What other guilds have you been a member of, and why did you leave?
Is your main or alts currently member(s) of other guilds?
How did you hear about TLW?
Why do you want to be a member of TLW?
What personal goals do you have for your character?
Depending on the answer to these questions, additional questions may be asked in the comment section of the application.
· When is it okay for me to comment on a potential recruit’s interview?
We always welcome our members’ opinions on everything we do. However, please be responsible with your comments. Provide information on a potential recruit from personal knowledge or knowledge from a quotable source. Explanation of why you’d feel a recruit would or would not make a good member is helpful. Avoid publicly airing personal disputes, etc., but let an officer know if a potential conflict exists.
· Why are Kunark, Velious, Luclin, and PoP required?
These expansions are required for our raids. Kunark, Velious, and Luclin are TLW’s current and near-future raiding grounds. Also, PoP allows us to make use of the raid feature.

[Jaymend]

Why are Kunark, Velious, Luclin, and PoP required?
These expansions are required for our raids. Kunark, Velious, and Luclin are TLW’s current and near-future raiding grounds. Also, PoP allows us to make use of the raid feature.

Hehehehe...forgot to edit those out?

But yeah, very good stuff. I agree with pretty much all of it. I think boasting the community and selfless nature of the members is the way to go. Nothing worse than being in a guild with a bunch of greedy loot whores. Members who will drop what they are doing to go help another guildie kill a rare spawn for a quest are the kind I want to be guilded with. And TRUST me, ones actions in-game will very quickly give them a "reputation" - be it a tarnished or good one.

[shiver]

Here is my idea on some of the application rules based on Dreamers post. (thanks for posting that btw) I do think those are for a little harder core guild then what I would want to join. No biggie though. :)

There are a couple things I would add that are on the same topic.

I have found important is knowing if the person is in a guild atm, why they want to leave the guild and other guilds they are currently applying to.

Also knowing who the new recruit is planning to also have join the guild is nice. Such as if the person has 5 or so friends they hope will be accepted if they guild seems to be a good one.


An applicant must register on website: agreed

An applicant must fill out an electronic application on: that’s fine

Level restrictions: Not a fan of these.

Alternates of existing eligible for automatic membership: Fine as long as we know who is who

Applications will only be progressed after a personal referral from a member: That’s fine.

The referrer must be a member in good standing for two months or more: seems a bit lengthy of a time period.

The referrer must have DIRECT experience with the recruit in-game or in real-life: Fine as long as in-game included past games.

The referrer must indicate his or her referral on the applicant’s electronic application: sure

All electronic applications are viewable. Membership will have approximately one week to comment on an application: Fine

The recruit should be scheduled to attend at least one guild event with one or more guild officer(s) present: Don’t think that officers have a better idea on who is ok then valued members. Seems like an unnecessary step.

All guild members will have an opportunity to vote after completion etc: Not so sure what benefit this is. People should express concerns they have but once again if we trust our guild members then the person should have a good chance of joining. If anyone doesn’t work out they would be removed.

The applicant may withdraw an application at any time without bias and with the ability to reapply at a later date: yup


A rejected application disallows future consideration as an applicant: Not seeing a reason for a one shot policy on this.

[Dreamer]

A rejected application disallows future consideration as an applicant: Not seeing a reason for a one shot policy on this.

Shiver:

Note that I'm not arguing with you, I fully expect this example policy to change.

But to address your question why this was included...

This statement gives the policy teeth. That is, it is a statement that there is no higher authority to recruitment than the policy.

This does two things:

a) Informs the applicant that there is no other method to joining the guild. They must go through the process outlined successfully to gain membership. That understanding is necessary to be fair to the recruit.

b) Empowers guild membership. The guild membership can know and be comfortable that their participation is the final word, and therefore meaningful. No applicants will be allowed into the guild through alternate means (e.g. They are best buds with an Officer and get in anyway, even though the rest of the guild thinks they aren't a good fit.)

Is it somewhat cold, definate, and a line in the sand? Yes, but sometimes that is necessary to make intent understood.

But again, I'm not arguing, just explaining why my previous guild thought it was necessary.

[Jaymend]

I'm a real advocate for a probation period. This allows the guild to evaluate the applicant in action when raiding and grouping. I really won't care too much what is in the written application. Actions speak louder than words, and I base 90% of my decision on how the person acts (his personality), how skilled he is at his class, how well he listens, how well he knows the game, and how much he helps others in the guild. I also think a probation period should be longer rather than shorter so the guild can get a true read on the applicant, rather than the applicant putting up a facade for a week and then reverting to his true self.

[Loampounder]

Theme - rather than good vs evil, I like like the idea of a secret watching society or explorers for knowledge. We are out there, looking, learning, and observing. Crafting knowledge is neither good nor evil - it's knowledge. terrain knowledge is neither good nor evil - it's knowledge. There could be knowledge or freedom crusades, for example to open the seas to free trade, push back the undead to free up land, punish the gnolls for tormenting their neighbors, locate the best site for a village, find the best woods for shipbuilding, or build the best guildhouse. Part of this could be to build the best team and the best community. It fits some of the feelings of "free will" or exploration described so far.

Applications - I like the written applications, for many reasons. It ties prospective members back to the forum (a big emphasis for us). It gets people to describe themselves and think about their character. It puts information on file for others to reference. And it weeds out the people who cannot/will not write a respectable introduction. Communication in all forms is a big requirement for me, as this is suppose to be a community. I cannot see that we would exclude based on language skills for noon-English speakers, because usually they give more thought to what they are writing than many English speakers. For example, Skar is a foreigner, and he writes English very well. :D

[shiver]

I guess I think all members are always on probation, or never depending on how you think of it.
Really a person could be in a guild 1 day or 1 year and if they are hurting the guild they get booted. Everyone who joined the guild agrees to follow the rules of that committee. For me time put into the guild doesn’t excuse or lessen the penalties for poor behavior. Well, really I think the longer a person has been a member the higher the standard they should be held to. I guess that is why I don't think probation periods mean much.
:confused:

[shiver]

"For example, Skar is a foreigner, and he writes English very well."

Woah! We are thinking about letting Skarlath into a guild like this? I mean he is all fluffy and trouble causing and he posts on things! :eek:

[Loampounder]

Article 4, section iii, subsection 2, paragraph 32, in point 4b, it says that fluff is good. But, in reading your posts, you all ready proved that. :pirate:

[Ieranii]

I'm a real advocate for a probation period. ... I also think a probation period should be longer rather than shorter so the guild can get a true read on the applicant, rather than the applicant putting up a facade for a week and then reverting to his true self.

I agree with this. Especially if we are going for smaller, tight knit and stable guild. It has always been my experience that it is much easier to deny an application than it is to remove a member who has become a problem.

[Skarlath]

I like the idea of a secret watching society or explorers for knowledge.

That's kinda what I was thinking. If we do want to go ahead with the mentoring system then why not work that into the very essence of the guild? The idea of a closed group steadily gaining power behind closed doors. Not classically 'good', but highly moral, and extremely mysterious.

We've got to have some chat-macro secret handshakes! :D:p

Applications - I like the written applications

I do too, and I think a moderately brief written application is a good thing to have alongside other things. However we do have to be careful not to overlook good players with great potential, just because they can't articulate themselves quite as well. I'm more than happy to have younger players in the guild, providing they want to be part of the community and contribute etc.

For example, Skar is a foreigner, and he writes English very well. :D

Well excuuuuuuuuuse me! Your the one borrowing my language, not the other way around, sonny-boy! ;)

I agree with this. Especially if we are going for smaller, tight knit and stable guild. It has always been my experience that it is much easier to deny an application than it is to remove a member who has become a problem.

I absolutely agree about denying being better than kicking out. Especially if we want to avoid drama. Often there are little things that may make you want to turn down an application, but once in the guild you feel mean to point out.(:( Definitely aim to have checked players out thoroughly before letting them join, even on a probationary basis, so that there's less hassle down the line.

As for a probationary period itself, yes. Definitely worthwhile. I'm thinking perhaps 2 weeks minimum, and week by week extensions on case by case basis if any problems have arisen. :)

[Loampounder]

I think that, by the nature of the guild, probation period would not be as needed here. If most of the people are forum-users, we can certainly research their background and get a feel on how they would mesh with the group. For example, we can exclude females from Nebraska who like to post in the "word ssociation, Vanguard" thread.

But, then again, probation periods don't matter for good people.

One bad lesson I had with guilds is the "group with guildees X number of times before you join". If someone is looking to join, they will not hound you just to group just so they can eventually get in. I was looking at a guild once and got tired of finding guildees to group with without being in the guild. I gave up and went to another guild that would let me join on probation.

[Darydale]

Wow there is a lot to respond to! I apologize for the novel.

Guild Size & Application process
I imagine we do not want a small guild, as we intent to be diverse participation - crafters, diplomats, adventurers from across the world, etc.
…
Pros- more poeple in a community makes for a more active community, more viewpoints to help form the guild, a larger community (pre-release) will help maintain a good environment during The Long Watch.

Cons - non-community minded people may join (but why join if they do not care?) People may only come for the witty banter and then leave us
…
Am I missing a downside to a large guild?

There are two main problems that can occur with large guilds. One comes from just the sheer number of people. Once you get beyond a certain size, there is a serious potential for drama. A whole bunch of different personalities and opinions together in the same space just increases the likelihood that conflicts will occur. And they do. As I said before, a lot of it was “behind the scenes,” meaning that few people other than officers were aware that there were problems. That is, unless people left (especially prominent members), which often caused huge rifts and empty holes in the guild. Most of the time, we healed and it was fine. But if it is your friends leaving the guild, you may wonder if you want to stay. My old guild had been increasing in size since January of last year, and just recently they had another batch of people leave. They likened it to a glacier:
Any organization, especially a guild full of people with strong personalities, is like a glacier in its way. The larger it becomes, the more mass is added to it, and the more weight that it carries. There will always come times when such a mass reaches an almost critical point.
When this happens, things will happen that will cause pieces to break off of this mass. It can be from heat, pressure, fractures, stress, or simply just an area of weight that isn’t being (or, in the case of people, feels like it isn’t being) adequately supported by the main body of the glacier. Because of this, pieces will break off. Usually small and without much incident. Occasionally larger pieces will break off and cause a splash or some impact against the rest of the mass. And on rare occasions, such as now, a significant piece will break loose because of a fracture, and will strike other pieces on the way down, thus causing a cascade effect.
Keep in mind I am not even trying to say that this is a bad thing, because they would have had to change the way the guild was in order to try to accommodate everyone (which they really couldn’t), I am just saying that this is something that can happen to large guilds.

I guess I think all members are always on probation, or never depending on how you think of it.
Really a person could be in a guild 1 day or 1 year and if they are hurting the guild they get booted. Everyone who joined the guild agrees to follow the rules of that committee. For me time put into the guild doesn’t excuse or lessen the penalties for poor behavior. Well, really I think the longer a person has been a member the higher the standard they should be held to. I guess that is why I don't think probation periods mean much.
:confused:

The other problem with large guilds is when members are accepted too fast and too easily. Someone can be an undesirable guild member without actually breaking the rules. They haven’t done enough to merit kicking them out, but they’re just not quite right for the guild. What do you do? It might be something you can talk to them about, but it might not. And not all people can be talked to. Once someone is in, it is often really upsetting when you have to kick them out. So people like this end up staying in the guild (as is probably the best thing in that case). It would just be better to prevent this from happening by screening potential members more thoroughly. Since we’re not going to let everyone in anyway, I think that this is better than a “number cap,” because then we won’t have to feel like we’re turning too many good people away.

Also, when you invite a lot of people at once, older members may feel like they can’t get to know the new members at the rate they’re coming in. While things are always changing, and you can never stay “the same old guild,” it’s better if the atmosphere doesn’t change too fast.

[Ieranii]

I think that, by the nature of the guild, probation period would not be as needed here. If most of the people are forum-users, we can certainly research their background and get a feel on how they would mesh with the group. For example, we can exclude females from Nebraska who like to post in the "word ssociation, Vanguard" thread.




:eek:

I don't know any of those...I live on the forums...er...wait...you said association thread...can I plead the fifth? :D

[Skarlath]

I like that glacier analogy, and I completely agree with it.

To begin with I think it's best for us to aim for being sturdy and tightknit, and then expand from there as we find players who fit well with us. :)

[elihup]

For a guild name proposal, I would just like to throw this one out there:

The Keepers of the Pie

I feel that the name really draws upon the essence of our roots in the vanguard forum community.

[Loampounder]

Very interesting. KotP? Watchers of Pie (WOP)? Order of the Pie (OP)? Then we could have divisions based on pie type...

[elihup]

Very interesting. KotP? Watchers of Pie (WOP)? Order of the Pie (OP)? Then we could have divisions based on pie type...
You mean to tell me that there is more than one type of pie? When did this happen?:D

I also like variations like you stated. Keepers, watchers, protectors, defenders ...

[Belisarius]

I don't have a whole lot to add here. you guys are coming up with ideas faster than my poor noggin can keep up wit'

As far as the recruitment policy, I have a problem with the application verbage. It strikes me as kinda elitist. Maybe it's just the verbage. Could we call it a "Notice of Interest"? :pirate:

When an application is received, a guild member should take it upon themselves to contact that person and group with them and as many other guild members as possible. If the applicant likes the gould/group or not, he can state his intention of following through or not.

Level restrictions: Definately not.

Theme: Few people who are evil consider themselves so. SO by default we're good eh? Perhaps we can tie the guild name (Are we sold on The Long Watch?) to an in-game theme ie Targanon was destroyed by undead, right? perhaps if Thestra is our home continent (Not crazy about that but am willing to do it) we can use that ie A private society dedicated to preventing the undead from overrunning civilization. Need more lore and info.

Could we make a list of the items on the table that really need to be decided upon? Policies for loot, recruitement, etc. All the things that a SOH guild would need regardless of starting continent or leader.

Oloh said in another thread he might help us set up forums on SV. Do this or go with our own?

[Jaymend]

All,

I've attached a draft guild charter. This is mainly a cut-and-paste job from a previous guild charter I drafted up a few years ago. I've updated some of it though. These are just ideas, and are only presented as such. It's kinda long, but has lots of info in it. Please post your feedback, and hopefully we can begin working on getting the guild going. Looks like we have at least 10 people, and that's enough to get the ball rolling on getting our own site, setting up forums, etc.

Let me know! Thanks!

[Boogenhagen]

I think you are right about the loot discussion. :) Though for those of you who haven't said your piece yet, and may still want to (such as Boog), feel free to post it. :)

Actually that is exactly what I had to say regarding loot policy. It's my opinion that it's much too early to be worrying about that sort of thing. For starters we aren't 100% clear on the loot situation in Vanguard yet. Not to mention that any guild policy would have to be molded with thought given to the crafting and diplomacy spheres and I just don't believe we're ready to do that.

All we can do for now, I believe, is to outline the intent of loot policy. Which is what you guys began here. Clearly state the spirit of such a policy and wait. There are still months to go after all. We've got no shortage of time on our hands. Because who knows? Maybe somebody will come up with something new.


Onto the topic of an application process: I support probationary periods for new members 100%. Perhaps not for forum members in good standing so much but others may join one day and I think it would help if we gave thought to that eventuality. I've been in guilds both with and without it and I find that those with it have had much smoother recruitment. I can't prove that is a result of the presence of probationary membership but I believe it is. Plus I despise guild-hopping.

I'm not a fan of a quota of guild groups forced upon new members nor do I care for level limits. Those things have just left a bad taste in my mouth.

The patron/vassal system that's been mentioned is pretty interesting, that's for sure. I really think there's some potential there. I see it as an attempt to decentralize the recruitment process a bit while strengthening individual ties within the guild. But what happens when it doesn't work out for the people involved? One thing that I think we need to give thought to is a method by which a patron or vassal could petition the recruitment officer to annul their patron/vassal relationship. Because I could see situations arise in which that bond would have to be dissolved while the guild still wishes to keep the vassal. Other than that I really like the whole idea.


Also there's the name. "The Long Watch" is alright but not spectacular. I certainly like the underlying meaning there just not sure about the delivery. Personally I prefer one-word names (hey, it works for cars) but that's me. So, cracking open a thesaurus, I can dig out a few words that might get those creative juices flowing. Words like "Vigilance", "Sentry", "Sentinel", or something like that. The name isn't really all that important anyway.

[Jaymend]

If we really get serious with this, I'm willing to float the bill for the website and forums, unless someone else can get us registration and hosting for free! In any event, it usually isn't very expensive.

[Raijyn]

Nice idea, and way too many posts to read. It sounds like something I would look in to, as long as I wouldnt have to be hardcore in any sense of the word. Im still in college, which means work, work, and more work, and I dont want to feel pressured into going online to meet an artifical requirement to log on all the time.

Still good idea there.

[Loampounder]

As far as the recruitment policy, I have a problem with the application verbage. It strikes me as kinda elitist. Maybe it's just the verbage. Could we call it a "Notice of Interest"? :pirate:
I don't see what is wrong with elitist? I don't think we want to be common. Will the mundane masses burn down our mansion if we make them jump through a hurdle?

If we have any level restrictions above the lvl 1 at start, we will all be unable to join this guild. Something in the back of my mind says that even the best players have to start at level one, so there is no point in putting in a level restriction anytime soon.

[elihup]

That guild charter Jaymend, makes it sound like a hardcore raiding guild, which is not what I am interested in at all. One big thing that sticks out to me right away is the line that states "Raiding is not optional." If that policy is the consensus, then that is cool, I will move on my way in the search for the guild that suits me, but from my understanding, this was not meant to be a raid centric guild.

[Jaymend]

That guild charter Jaymend, makes it sound like a hardcore raiding guild, which is not what I am interested in at all. One big thing that sticks out to me right away is the line that states "Raiding is not optional." If that policy is the consensus, then that is cool, I will move on my way in the search for the guild that suits me, but from my understanding, this was not meant to be a raid centric guild.

I said I just posted it for ideas only, not for what I wanted this guild to be. It was merely a cut-and-paste job from a previous one I had on my hard drive from years ago. No need to get too excited, hehehe!

[Loampounder]

Nice idea, and way too many posts to read. It sounds like something I would look in to, as long as I wouldnt have to be hardcore in any sense of the word. Im still in college, which means work, work, and more work, and I dont want to feel pressured into going online to meet an artifical requirement to log on all the time.
Raijyn, the main thrust of the guild is "core" players of good ability who don't have the time to be hardcore. We are all against requirements.

Jaymend, 15 pages? Wow.

[Raijyn]

Raijyn, the main thrust of the guild is "core" players of good ability who don't have the time to be hardcore. We are all against requirements.

Jaymend, 15 pages? Wow.

In that case, its starting to sound a lot more fun. If you all ever start this, count me in to lend a hand. Long live the power of the Pie!

[Loampounder]

Great! I think we have all felt pressure in some way to keep up with a guild or stay with the crowd. It would really be great to have a lot of skilled, serious players around without being ruled by the raid schedule.

[Jaymend]

Jaymend, 15 pages? Wow.

Yeah, sorry for the length. But these are just ideas. Use some or none! There's no pride of ownership on my part. I just figured the more ideas we have on the table, the better. Brainstorming and sharing ideas can only help us, not hurt us.:)

[Darydale]

Wow, that was long! The last part of that lore section cracked me up :P Some good ideas, there, Jaymend. Not all of it of course ;)

-The Guidelines and Rules of Conduct were good.

-Some good stuff in the Raiding section, and some of it may carry over to Vanguard. Not sure if we should make people come to raids if they are online, but I'm glad that there is no other requirement (like days per week, etc), and that real life comes first.

-A lot of good ideas in the Raid Etiquette, as a lot of it is just politeness, but we may not need to be quite as hardcore. :) Example: Some socializing in guild chat might be okay, especially if the whole guild isn't in the raid (crafters, diplomats, etc. :)).

-The Loot Distribution system seems pretty solid. [Except I don't think there will be NO DROP/Soulbound items like that.] I might be in favor of something like this (need-based + random rolling), but I still think that the extremely difficult raid zones (if we ever get there) should use DKP.

-Guild Hierarchy: The "House Lords" seems like it might be a good idea, but I think we'd need more than one per sphere, at least with adventuring. What about one per archetype (healer, tank, etc)?

-I like this part in the Officer Responsibilities:
All in all, the officer-corps will be afforded special privileges in that we will be the bottom line in guild decision-making. These privileges are only to be used to the betterment of the guild as a whole or for the betterment of people within the guild...never for personal gain. The officers will serve the guild...not vice-versa.
However, I think we may want to separate the officer position and the raid-leader position (an officer can still lead a raid, but not all officers have to be proficient in raiding).

-Officer and Guild Leader Elections/Removal: The checks and balances system was interesting, and might be something we want to explore. Then again, maybe not :) Depends how much power we want the guild leader to have. In other guilds I was in, the officers had some say, but the guild leader had the final say.

[Skarlath]

Level requirements - just no need. If we are going the be recruiting great players, they will be great because of the player, not because of the character.

As for elitism.. well we are being elitist anyway, if we say we only want to take friendly gamers who want to have some fun and play hard together. Elitism just makes people think of those hardcore guilds who don't let anyone in except for those who come fully levelled and with great gear. That's not us, for sure. Perhaps "exclusive" would be a better word to use? :)

Boog's points about the patron/vassal system are definitely worthwhile thinking through. But here's something that perhaps I should have mentioned earlier about the system in AC1.

Now and again, your patron couldn't cut it. Perhaps he couldn't solo your monsters all by himself, didn't know how to complete a quest or couldn't provide the item you needed. In these situations, patrons would call on their own patrons. That's part of the beauty of the system - there are continuous steps up in terms of experience in the guild and likely character power. When your patron's patron turned up, things got done. I was just in awe of my patron's patron on the occasions when he was brought along by my own patron. Thing's got done and monsters got smooshed. Big time!

So, how does it fit? Well I think that a lesser relationship, but a relationship nonetheless, should be encouraged between a vassal and their patron's patron. If a member of the guild suddenly quit, then we want the chain to sort of... compact itself, linking together the player-who-left's patron and vassal, so the chain never breaks. The fact that the patron-vassal connections in our guild would be purely in our minds means we wouldn't have the problems that AC1 had of renegade members leaving and dragging their vassals, and their vassals' vassals and so on out of the allegience.

It is possible that the leaver's vassal and patron aren't all that compatible in some cases, and they can be dealt with as they arise by redistributing the vassal (and therefore the chain of vassals beneath them) underneath a handpicked new patron.

I was just thinking about something that may make the patron-vassal chains even more fun and interesting. Lets say we have the guild leader, and four main vassals 'attached' to them (mainly for ceremonial/showy reasons). If all members are connected to them within chains then you sort of have teams formed. A kind of 'house' system. Separate orders within the guild. I was just thinking that that might be really fun when it comes to running events, as you could have some friendly competition between those within the guild. Things like duelling events, scavenger competitions and such.

It may be that the four vassals beneath the leader are in fact 'crafting', 'adventuring', 'diplomacy' and such, which would kind of ruin the idea of competition... though would still be interesting. :)

And as to boog's final paragraph -

"The Long Watch" isn't set in stone by a long way, it's nice to hear ideas and such. I'm not a massive fan of single word names though... lots of guilds already get in on the 'cool sounding' single word names, and i'd quite like it if our chosen guild name was really quite unique. Y'know - really standing out from everyone else. :)

As for names relating to The Pie - I sorta feel these are a bit too flippant. I'd like a name that was a fairly serious name that, though perhaps being an in-joke for us, could be known and feared throughout without the risk of the bad-guys giggling at us. :p

[Jaymend]

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah, I'm just trying to contribute. No heartburn from me if the whole damn thing is tossed out the window!

-Guild Hierarchy: The "House Lords" seems like it might be a good idea, but I think we'd need more than one per sphere, at least with adventuring. What about one per archetype (healer, tank, etc)?
If you read it more closely, I did propose exactly what you describe. There would be 6 House Lords (Crafting, Diplomacy, Offensive Fighters, Protective Fighters, Arcane Casters, and Healers.)

But again, we can take some of these ideas and tweak them to suit our needs.

[Darydale]

Oops! Sorry, I was tired last night :)

[Boogenhagen]

As for names relating to The Pie - I sorta feel these are a bit too flippant. I'd like a name that was a fairly serious name that, though perhaps being an in-joke for us, could be known and feared throughout without the risk of the bad-guys giggling at us. :p

Seriously. If I'm in a guild that's name references pie in any way then people are going to think I'm a one-trick pony. Which I am, but they won't know that until I'm already inside their house...

[Jaymend]

Hahahaha!

[Skarlath]

but they won't know that until I'm already inside their house...

:eek:

[Loampounder]

"The Long Watch" isn't set in stone by a long way, it's nice to hear ideas and such. I'm not a massive fan of single word names though... lots of guilds already get in on the 'cool sounding' single word names, and i'd quite like it if our chosen guild name was really quite unique. Y'know - really standing out from everyone else. :)
OK, poking at single word names around "Watch" or "watcher":

Beholder, Observers, Observance, Panorama, vigil (ha, Sigil Vigil), Kibitz, Custodians, Pathfinders, Wardens, Cerberus, preservers, Gatekeepers,

Some combinations: Vigil Vigilantes, The Observant Guard, Kibitz Crew, Perservers of Faith, Custodians of Secrets, Secret Wardens,

Just throwing out stuff; hope I did not hit anyone.

[Jaymend]

Vigil Vigilantes

LOL...I read that as Sigil Vigilantes and had to do a double-take!!:D

[elihup]

Well, despite the lack of interest in my pie based name suggestion, this seems to be coming together quite nicely. Seems that we are mostly on the same page.

Just out of interest, who of you are deeply interested in focusing on crafting and/or diplomacy? At this point in time, I am thinking of focusing my attention on ship building come release, but I will probably keep my adventuring/crafting/harvesting all around the same level.

[Loampounder]

Shivers has mentioned crafting and Belis has mentioned diplomacy. I like resources, so it looks like we will have all angles covered. Shipbuilding also intrigues me; it would be a wonderful community project.

[Skarlath]

I'm fairly adventuring orientated, but will most definitely dabble in the other spheres. :)

Shipbuilding also intrigues me; it would be a wonderful community project.

Though not a simultaneous one. :( It would have been great if different groups of crafters had to work at the same time to finish certain parts. Though I guess if you all work simultaneously the ship will be finished sooner anyway.

I just hope it isn't a matter of all the crafters making their components and then the final crafter putting the actual components together to make a ship in just a few minutes. :(

But I digress. :p

[Jaymend]

So, what's the next step? We've gotten lots of good input, seem to have lots of interested people, and have discussed many topics. I haven't formed a guild from the ground up before, especially in this manner. Well, just let me know how I can help and what to do next!

[Ieranii]

I'm all hunky dorey with the vassal system. Completely opposed to /random'ing raid loot. I like "The Long Watch" as a name but I don't mind single word names either. After doing some thinking about it I do prefer serious names over fun ones.

I think that about sums it up for now...

[Ieranii]

New thought!

I get those now and then... let's see how our play times stack up?


Time zone map (http://www.worldtimezone.com/)


My play times would be typically 1pm-5pm east coast time (USA). Of course that's only 5 days a week. I'll be playing longer hours, much longer, on the evenings before a day off.

I really want to level diplomacy AND adventuring though so I will probably level very slowly. I also absolutely LOVE to explore which also tends to slow down my level progression.

[Jaymend]

6pm-8pm EST Mon-Thurs
5pm-10pm EST Fri
All day Sat and Sun, less random chores and errands!:p

[Skarlath]

Ieranii helped me with time translations (thanks!) so.. I pretty much play a few hours on either side of 1:30pm CST.

Though if Vanguard is released in July-ish I will have pretty much unlimited time. :twisted: I intend to become nocturnal so I can get extra playing time during American peak. :)

[Boogenhagen]

I'm on EST too. Other than that my play times are usuallly pretty irregular. I'd say from 3PM to 'round 8PM will be when I'm most likely to show up. On weekdays that is. Weekends are a whole other case.

EDIT: Also, uh, where I'm from the word "usually" gets 3 'L's. <shifty eyes>

[Raijyn]

Well I wont know my summer schedule till later, but Im normally on at nights EST around 8:00 pm on. And usually on weekends full time.

[Belisarius]

I live in Arizona where we don't observe Daylight Savings, so my time zone actually jumps between Pacific and Mountain. For the long term, my schedule will probably be 630-9pm M-W Friday till whenever, and Sat and Sunday much of the day & night.


However at release, I'll be taking the week off to play and really pound Diplomacy during the day and Adv level at night.


I can live on 3hrs of sleep:ninja:

[Dreamer]

I'm EST also. I'm unavailable during regular business hours unless I take a day off. I have outside, evening commitments during the week, so my play time varies by day. On the weekends I do spend quite a bit of time online.

[Loampounder]

Not only am I the only PST it seems, but I don't play until the kids go to bed, which usually makes my play time 11PM-3AM EST. I will stand night watch in town.

[Raijyn]

Not only am I the only PST it seems, but I don't play until the kids go to bed, which usually makes my play time 11PM-3AM EST. I will stand night watch in town.

Well, I wouldnt be at all surprised that there would be a few people that would come join you, especially during weekends, so you wouldnt be completely alone. Of course, If it wasnt for college, I would be online for as much of the day as I can get away with without going "completely" insane :D

[Razorwire]

I haven't read more than half the first page but put my name on here as interested. I will be playing GMT evenings. and I always guild with my wife, so if she can't join neither can I.

[Darydale]

Guess I never officially stated interest--could you put my name on there too? Thanks Skarlath :)

My hours vary, but I should have a lot of time this summer (PST time), and then after that I'll be able to play some on weeknights, and more on weekends (bed time at 11 CST time).

I might be playing two characters, though, so my boyfriend can keep up with me (hehe).

[Razorwire]

Wow there is alot here, just want to touch on a few points initially.

1. Given the wide range of time zones, the guild is going to want to be fairly big, in the 50-100 person zone so that we will have people to chat to and play with.

2. On membership and new members. I think that the provisional acceptance and probabtion are the way to go. however I would require at least 3 current members to say this is a good person on the forum app before probabtion was allowed. This is not to hard, invite your friend to come along to a mostly guild group. After probabtion have at least 10 people say that you would be a good addition to the guild. This keeps members active in the requitment process and also doesn't allow for people to get in on the apathy vote.

3. a loot system for raids must be established before the guild goes live so that there are no hard feelings when it gets used. if we do not set a loot policy now there will be hurt feelings when one is established. I would also recommend a group loot policy.

Levels of loot priority

a. upgrade on your primary set
b. upgrade on secondary set
c. alt or cash loot

I feel that if someone needs an iem to upgrade their primary set that is more important than upgrading someone's secondary set and of course upgrading someone's secondary set is more important than equiping someone's alt. I put cash lot at the same level as alt equipment since in general unless the group in there for the specific purpose of equiping an alt, we all have alts or could use that extra peice of equipment. Though I would prefer to have guildies that would prefer to let someone have an item for an alt than take it for cash.

[Skarlath]

Whoops! Sorry Dary! I'll add you and Razor now. :)

[Skarlath]

Okay, so here's another thing to think about:

Leadership. We'll probably decide on a guild leader nearer the time, but who among us is interested in an officer type role of some sort? Just so we can get a feel for those who might be up for it.

I would quite like to take an active role within the guild's administration side of things as an officer, but due to my play times potentially being slightly out of line with all of yours it may be best for me to have a lesser position, or one a little more out of the way. :)


Another unconnected and smaller thought:

I think Loam mentioned before about quality of written English. Would typing properly be something we would want to... enforce, strongly encourage or just ignore?

There's no sense in not allowing someone in because they type u instead of you, but I would like there to be quite some weight behind the idea of people reforming their old bad-typing ways. It just makes things nicer. :D

[Loampounder]

I would volunteer to be an officer type, but not the guildleader. I balk when you mention "adminstration" side but I can provide a strong role in the guild.

Written communication - I suggest encourage, more so by being selective about who we bring in and less about badgering people. If we want to base the guild on forum presense and encourage forum use for interaction after the launch, then people need to communication well. For example, for an internet forum, the posts in this thread have all been amazingly readable. If we present this face as a community and encourage such in our guild forums, I think we can preserve it.

[Razorwire]

I'd be willing to step up for officer or if necessary leader. I don't really have the time nor do I want to be hard nosed enough to be the leader.

I would prefer to strongly encourage proper english as opposed to u and u r etc. Just a pet peeve of mine.

I don't think I would enforce proper english but I may want to ban leet.

I am still not sure what I want to play, if I am selected as an officer it would be in the adventuring catagory. I will play around with diplomacy and crafting but I will be focused on adventuring. (War, Dru, Mnk all appeal))

[Jaymend]

Good thoughts, Skar.

I think the manner in which an applications is written says volumes about the applicant. If someone throws together a sloppy application riddled with grammatical and spelling errors, that tells me he didn't bother to take his time, probably doesn't care, and isn't very serious about being a member. The application can also be a good way to see how people follow instructions by asking the applicants to include certain information in their application.

As far as leadership, I've been an officer in both EQ and EQII, so I wouldn't mind the responsibility. I don't have the time needed to be a guild leader, but I could easily commit to an officer position. I also could very easily be a strong supporting member. Either way is cool with me.:)

[Darydale]

About the leadership… I have no idea who would lead the guild, but it takes an amazing person to do it well. My old guild leader was fantastic. This person would (ideally) have to embody the ideals of the guild, be a good manager and motivator, be able to resolve conflicts, come up with ideas, be open to suggestion but firm and decisive when necessary, have good judgment, play a fair amount, and be constantly working to improve the guild.

Now it may be that no one that exceptional (or time-able) emerges, but that should be the thing that is strived for. :) We could even have a temporary leader at release, and then they could stay if that was working out, or give the position to someone else, and there would be no hard feelings.

I think an officer should be a minor version of what I described for the guild leader. In my opinion, good judgment is the most important characteristic of an officer, even over time played. I nominate Skarlath for officer. :) One of the places for guild discussion will be on our guild forums. (Hmm, who is good at posting a lot, all the time…? Hmmm…) I might be interested in an officer position, but if it turns out that I’m not in-line with the guild vision, then that won’t really work. One idea, however, is to balance officers who represent different interests (casual, hardcore, roleplay, non-roleplay, crafting, diplomacy…).

[Skarlath]

About the leadership… I have no idea who would lead the guild, but it takes an amazing person to do it well. My old guild leader was fantastic. This person would (ideally) have to embody the ideals of the guild, be a good manager and motivator, be able to resolve conflicts, come up with ideas, be open to suggestion but firm and decisive when necessary, have good judgment, play a fair amount, and be constantly working to improve the guild.

In a completely unrelated manner.. i'd just like to say that i'm wholeheartedly behind the current directions of the guild. We've had some great posts so far, keep them coming! Just remember, opinions are just that - if you disagree with someone then state your case politely. I think we should bring doughnuts to next meeting! Though if anyone has any alternative tasty snacks, feel free to bring them along. However I will undoubtedly be eating the doughnuts. Doughnuts are, afterall, very tasty. I'll most likely be posting again in a few minutes time, after a doughnut or two. By the way, i'm going to enter a doughnut eating competition to raise funds for the guild. *nods sagely*

I think an officer should be a minor version of what I described for the guild leader. In my opinion, good judgment is the most important characteristic of an officer, even over time played.

Can I just emphasise at this point that I like doughnuts. *nods*

I nominate Skarlath for officer. :)

How kind! I just hope I can live up to all those desirable traits. :D

One of the places for guild discussion will be on our guild forums. (Hmm, who is good at posting a lot, all the time…? Hmmm…)

Just to avoid any confusion on anyones part, my bloated postcount is by no means an indicator of me being a spammer, i'll have you know. I'm just... a friendly fluffinator, as Loam would say. :p:D

One idea, however, is to balance officers who represent different interests (casual, hardcore, roleplay, non-roleplay, crafting, diplomacy…).

Being a little more serious for a minute or two (then i'll go lie down until it passes):

That's a very sensible course to take. It'd help the general running of the guild be far more smoothly - an officer for each sphere would be quite important I think, and then a couple more for harvesting, raiding if we eventually go that direction to any small degree. Perhaps another officer in charge of overseeing the patron/vassal system to help allocate recruits.

Ultimately if people have an issue with any part of the guild they need to have someone to relay their problem to so things can be cleared up. We should be careful not to go overboard with too many officers, but have a handful in positions from which most problems are covered is a good way to go. :)

[Razorwire]

Can I just emphasise at this point that I like doughnuts. *nods*



What is it with Brits and fatty fried foods?


Ultimately if people have an issue with any part of the guild they need to have someone to relay their problem to so things can be cleared up. We should be careful not to go overboard with too many officers, but have a handful in positions from which most problems are covered is a good way to go. :)

We also don't want to few officers. We need to have an "offical" guild rep on line as much as possible in case anything happens that would require an "offical" responce. So it's a bit of a balancing act.

Additionally Raid Leadership should not be tied to Officer status, I would also be inclined to disallow officer status to Raid Leaders so that they do not have the additional administration burden of being an officer and can focus on leading raids. However the seperation between Raid Leader and Officer is not one that I would stress at all, but I would encourage non-officer members to step up to raid leader status. I have been a guild leader, an officer and a raid leader and they all require a different set of skills and interests. They all require a serious time commitment and they all have different rewards.

[Loampounder]

Additionally Raid Leadership should not be tied to Officer status, I would also be inclined to disallow officer status to Raid Leaders so that they do not have the additional administration burden of being an officer and can focus on leading raids. However the seperation between Raid Leader and Officer is not one that I would stress at all, but I would encourage non-officer members to step up to raid leader status.
I like this line of thought. It will be hard to do with a smallish guild (people with the drive to be officers usually has the most drive to lead raids). I like spreading the idea of leadership to a wide variety of types of people. Also, raid leader should mean more than only doing raids. A raid leader is sort of our dungeon guru, our assault commando, etc. Perhaps a name change is in order to set the tone correctly - general, master sergeant, ceasar, etc.

[Razorwire]

I like this line of thought. It will be hard to do with a smallish guild (people with the drive to be officers usually has the most drive to lead raids). I like spreading the idea of leadership to a wide variety of types of people. Also, raid leader should mean more than only doing raids. A raid leader is sort of our dungeon guru, our assault commando, etc. Perhaps a name change is in order to set the tone correctly - general, master sergeant, ceasar, etc.

While in general I do agree with this, I also have to disagree. I want as many people as possible to feel empowered enough to say, hey I can put together an event for 12-24 of us! And not feel the requirement of leading more than one or two events (of course we hope they will do more). So to continue the seperation between officer status and raid/event leader status we would have the raid officer that would be mostly in charge of event scheduling and the raid leaders would be in charge of what they want to lead a raid against. Note this is not me saying that I want to raid all the time, because I don't, but I do want the members of the guild to be able to be as involved as they want/can be.

[Darydale]

doughnuts . . . tasty snacks . . . doughnuts . . . Doughnuts . . . doughnut or two . . . doughnut . . . *nods sagely* . . . doughnuts.

:eek: uhhhh... someone's a weirdo! :D

[Loampounder]

I want as many people as possible to feel empowered enough to say, hey I can put together an event for 12-24 of us! And not feel the requirement of leading more than one or two events (of course we hope they will do more).
Yup, we need to find a way to promote an environment where people say, "Hey, I want to try and lead something" and then we need to nurture that.
uhhhh... someone's a weirdo!
Or just hungary.

[Razorwire]

:eek: uhhhh... someone's a weirdo! :D

It's very very british, make something with a lot sof carbs, add alot of sugar and deep fry it and you will be a millionare.

[shiver]

It sounds like people are thinking of a guild leader or two and some of the following ideas of officers:

Crafting
Harvesting
Adventure
Play style
Raiding / events
Diplomacy
PR officer
Also general off peak officers
Back up to patron/vassal system officer

That is a lot of ideas for officers. So maybe it is time to think about what officers would be really needed in a small, close knit, community guild. What size of guild are people thinking this is going to be? How many main active players are people thinking?

In general I think that as few officers as possible is good. People shouldn’t be upset because an event they wanted wasn’t planned by some raid officer. People should plan the even them self.

If there is a need for harvested goods then people should be able to post on the forums and plan an outing. Sounds like several people are on board the whole ‘ anyone can lead / pitch in idea.”

All that being said I think I could go for being the crafting officer. I don’t think I am a good guild leader but crafting officer should be just fine. I can type more on this in a bit but….

Yes Skarlath, donuts are really, really good. Do I know you from some other guild? This donut thing, I have been a part of the donut movement before. So instead of working on this important officer post I am thinking I can jog down to the gym, work out, pick up a movie and donuts and be back before a major thunderstorm hits this area. I was going to stay home where it is safe… but noooooooo, you have to get all donut loving and now I am obsessing on how yummy a donut would be. I will have you know my timing on storms is really bad, I could get struck by lightening. Or worse… the donuts could get Soggy. :eek:

be back later. *grin*

[Darydale]

It's very very british, make something with a lot sof carbs, add alot of sugar and deep fry it and you will be a millionare.

I think that works in America too. People went insane when Krispy Kreme came to my area in Portland.


Anyways, back on topic!

In general I think that as few officers as possible is good. People shouldn’t be upset because an event they wanted wasn’t planned by some raid officer. People should plan the even them self.

I agree that people should be able to plan events themselves, and that they wouldn't need an official status to do so. Also, even if we have officers that represent different interests, they should all be able and wanting of the general officer responsibilities in addition to their "sphere" or whatever. How many should we start out with? I think 4 to 6 would probably be a good number. It is likely that the people who step up will have differing interests anyway. For those that expressed interest, how would you describe yourself?

[Razorwire]

It sounds like people are thinking of a guild leader or two and some of the following ideas of officers:

Crafting
Harvesting
Adventure
Play style
Raiding / events
Diplomacy
PR officer
Also general off peak officers
Back up to patron/vassal system officer

I don't think we are talking about that many or at least if we are having one person take more than one hat so Skarlath may end up the Play Style/off peak/PR guy while I take adventuring/diplomacy and event and you take crafting and harvesting. I think Dary's suggestion of 4-6 officers is right on the money.



That is a lot of ideas for officers. So maybe it is time to think about what officers would be really needed in a small, close knit, community guild. What size of guild are people thinking this is going to be? How many main active players are people thinking?

In general I think that as few officers as possible is good. People shouldn’t be upset because an event they wanted wasn’t planned by some raid officer. People should plan the even them self.
We need to wait on this one, we won't know how many people we have until later.

If there is a need for harvested goods then people should be able to post on the forums and plan an outing. Sounds like several people are on board the whole ‘ anyone can lead / pitch in idea.”

All that being said I think I could go for being the crafting officer. I don’t think I am a good guild leader but crafting officer should be just fine. I can type more on this in a bit but….



I would really like to push for active partisipation in the guild for normal members, even such events as hey lets go out and harvest for an hour or I'm putting together a guild group to go hunting tonight. But definately a focus on the guild in play style. I would like to promote an atmosphere of I know that when I log in the guild will be doing something with each other, even if it is a couple of scattered groups.

As for me as an officer, I am a very guild oriented player I prefer to work with guildmates and work for guildmates. I plan to be focused on the adventuring sphere but after reading TDD's thing on Diplomacy I know that will interest me as well. I love to do group quests and just go out and adventure and find new things. In former guilds I was very forth coming in putting together guild hunts and I have lead multiple raids (nothing on PoP scales but up to about 36 people)

[Jaymend]

Here are some thoughts:

Size of Guild
I think the size of the guild should be such that on any given night of the week from 5p.m. to 1a.m. EST there are, on average, 30-40 people online. I don't know how many overall members it would take to reach that, but there's only one way to find out!

Guild Leader/Officers (1 Guild Leader and 5 Officers)

Guild Leader - I really think there should be only one Guild Leader. More than one Guild Leader causes problems when they don't agree, or one makes a decision when the other isn't there and it doesn't work out, etc. There could be a Vice Guild Leader or Assistant Guild Leader that could take over when the Guild Leader isn't there, but there needs to be a discernible chain of command.
Raid Officer - There should be one person who is an officer that monitors the Raid Leaders, deals with loot issues during the raid, and manages the guild's raid schedule and program.
Recruitment and Guild Relations Officer - Handles all recruitment issues as well as alliances/partnerships with other guilds on the sever. Is the point of contact for members of partner guilds to contact if they have questions about our guild, want to join one of our raids, etc. Also manages the patron/vassal system.
Guild Logistics Officer - This person is in charge of monitoring the crafting and harvesting program. This will also be the person who maintains the guild bank, takes orders for supplies, and organizes regents and other crafted/bought items needed during raids.
Diplomacy Officer - In charge of all diplomacy operations and progression. This includes any guild housing, guild outposts, guild caravans, guild cities, and ensuring the diplomatic needs of the guild are being met.
Adventuring Officer - This officers monitors and advocates for the House Lords (see below). He works closely with all the other officers to make sure we have the classes needed during raids, to make sure the adventures are outfitted, etc.
House Lords - These are not officers, but instead are the "go to" person for questions about the classes in their archetype. They work closely with the Recruitment Officer when new applicants fall within their archetype. There should be one House Lord for each area:
Healers
Offensive Fighters
Protective Fighters
Arcane Casters
Well, that's all I have for now because my lunch break is over, hehehe. More to follow...

[Skarlath]

Crafting
Harvesting
Adventure
Play style
Raiding / events
Diplomacy
PR officer
Also general off peak officers
Back up to patron/vassal system officer


I sat and asked myself what aspects of the guild would require decision making, or potentially have problems, and from there came up with my own list of leadership.

Guild Leader - Figure head of the guild, fairly involved in all aspects of the guild. Will likely do a lot of the work related to communicating with other guilds.
Recruitment Officer - In charge of overseeing all recruitment (though other officers will contribute) and will take a leading role when it comes to patron/vassal allocation and problems.
Events Officer - Whilst we want to encourage everyone to run events for the rest of the guild, an events officer would help people work things out and make sure things are nice and smooth. They would be helping out with everything from raids to roleplay events.
Loot Council Chair - This would depend on our decisions regarding raid loot. If a loot council is required for allocation multiple officers would be involved but the Loot Council's Chairman would stage the discussion and keep track of raid attendance, who needs what and so on.
Crafting/Harvesting/Resource Allocation Officer - There will undoubtedly be guild projects to be undertaken, and quite possibly shared guild resources. When it comes to housing we are going to want to help eachother get our houses, and so may well collect resources for a project-resources pool. This officer would be incharge of this pool, monitoring who donates what and distributes the resources as they see fit.

There is the possibility of officers for the other two spheres, an Adventuring Officer and a Diplomacy Officer, but what will these officers be able to do? Answer questions? Organise groups? These are things that hopefully every member will be doing anyway. We may choose to have these officers just for the sake of it, but we need to bear in mind that the officers we choose for these positions may not be the highest level in the guild in their spheres. If the Diplomacy Officer doesn't have any questions coming their way because they are all directed to another player who is the highest Diplomat in the guild then is that officer redundant?

Until we know a little more about how Adventurers and Diplomats will play into the grand scheme of running a guild, it may be difficult to decide on having them on as officers. Potential reasons may be organising city defences and organising city trading (diplomacy used for aquiring NPC merchants?) but these are things we can't be 100% sure of just yet.

Remember the actual 'player city' mechanics will not be functional by launch, though we may wish to have a mayor simply in charge of house placement and for the fun of it.

So anyway, that gives us 4-6 officers, just as Dary predicted. I can see now that Razor and Jay have already beaten me to the post suggesting similar things. Ah way, submit reply anyway. :D

[Jaymend]

Hey Skar....you and I actually have some pretty similar ideas as far as guild leadership is concerned. Not too far from each other, hehehe.:p

[Razorwire]

From what I am reading it looks like we are all pretty much on the same page so this should work out pretty wonderfully. On Skar's list I would be interested in the Events, GL or Loot council positions (pretty much in that order). Recruitment and Crafting don't interest me to much.

[Skarlath]

So how do you guys feel about the need for Adventuring and Diplomacy officers?

Edit:

Bear in mind that with the patron/vassal system there is likely to be a chain of patrons and vassals for each sphere. We perhaps wouldn't need a diplomacy officer, for example, if diplomats are generally in the same chain as any questions and such could just be passed up the chain until someone can answer. :)

[Jaymend]

So how do you guys feel about the need for Adventuring and Diplomacy officers?

I guess I can see the need to not have an Adventuring Officer, as all needs/problems should be addressed with the patron system.

In the beginning, we probably won't need a Diplomacy Officer, but I think in the future we might especially once we get involved with guild housing, guild cities, guild outposts, etc.

[Ieranii]

Here are some thoughts:

Size of Guild
I think the size of the guild should be such that on any given night of the week from 5p.m. to 1a.m. EST there are, on average, 30-40 people online. I don't know how many overall members it would take to reach that, but there's only one way to find out!


My last EQ guild had 100+ members (seperate accounts)...if it wasn't a raid night we rarely had more than 30 people on at once.

My EQ2 guild started prelaunch and had about 35 seperate accounts at launch. We normally only had a group and a half on and only during prime play time.

Honestly, I hadn't expected us to be looking to start the game with a guild the size of my eq guild (100+). I was under the impression that we'd start soemthing small here and grow once we got in game.

Am I off in that thinking?


Guild Leader/Officers (1 Guild Leader and 5 Officers)

Guild Leader - I really think there should be only one Guild Leader.
agree. I would like to see annual elections though.

Raid Officer - There should be one person who is an officer that monitors the Raid Leaders, deals with loot issues during the raid, and manages the guild's raid schedule and program.

I agree . I would add that this person could research possible raid targets and post them to the forums. Kind of as a reference thread members could search if they wanted to lead a raid but didn't know what was available. This person could also be the go-to person for folks who want to lead a raid but have a lot of questions and need some mentoring.


Recruitment and Guild Relations Officer - Handles all recruitment issues as well as alliances/partnerships with other guilds on the sever. Is the point of contact for members of partner guilds to contact if they have questions about our guild, want to join one of our raids, etc. Also manages the patron/vassal system.

Ok

Guild Logistics Officer - This person is in charge of monitoring the crafting and harvesting program. This will also be the person who maintains the guild bank, takes orders for supplies, and organizes regents and other crafted/bought items needed during raids.

Not sure if guild banking should be left to one person. That can be a huge undertaking that takes up massive amounts of time and space.


Diplomacy Officer -
I'm with whoever said that this sort of thing will naturally fall to the members who are highest level in those spheres.

House Lords - These are not officers, but instead are the "go to" person for questions about the classes in their archetype. They work closely with the Recruitment Officer when new applicants fall within their archetype. There should be one House Lord for each area:[LIST]
Healers
Offensive Fighters
Protective Fighters
Arcane Casters


I like that idea. I'd volunteer to be a healers -helper...not sure I want to be called lord though :p


that's it for now

[Jaymend]

Honestly, I hadn't expected us to be looking to start the game with a guild the size of my eq guild (100+). I was under the impression that we'd start soemthing small here and grow once we got in game.

Am I off in that thinking?

Nope, I think we are on the same page. I just wasn't very clear in my post! Those projections I listed were for end strength numbers. Meaning, that should be the target eventually as we grow and start to raid more often. But to start, we will obviously be much smaller than that.

[Skarlath]

Guild size... hmm. Well basically Aradune has said that raid-type content begins at midlevel. So by the time we are midlevel, we would need around 20 available players to enjoy this content.

At launch I was in the same sort of mindset as Ieranii - start small and just grow from there as we meet people we would like to spend more time with. We're bound the have a bunch of people online at all sorts of times, so i'm sure they'll generally be someone to group with.

So i'm thinking aim for a 15-20 person launch. That sort of thing. :)

Just as Ieranii said, 30 people online at one time is tough unless its scheduled. My WoW guild was about 100 member when I left the game, and at peak time there may have been 20-30 players online. For the rest of the time there was always someone online at all times. :)

We can always schedule playtimes to a small degree if we decide one night that we'd all like to crawl through a dungeon together. And i'm sure we'll make use of fellowships and caravans to keep us all fairly together. :)

[Darydale]

Edit: deleted redundant information about guild size.

Guild Leader - I really think there should be only one Guild Leader. More than one Guild Leader causes problems when they don't agree, or one makes a decision when the other isn't there and it doesn't work out, etc. There could be a Vice Guild Leader or Assistant Guild Leader that could take over when the Guild Leader isn't there, but there needs to be a discernible chain of command.

/agree

Like diplomacy, the Raid Officer and Guild relations officer may emerge later, when we see what talents people possess. We may not need specific jobs for all the officers immediately. Also, the “House Lords” may just be one of the highest level people of that archetype, at least for a while.

Recruitment and Guild Relations Officer - Handles all recruitment issues as well as alliances/partnerships with other guilds on the sever. Is the point of contact for members of partner guilds to contact if they have questions about our guild, want to join one of our raids, etc. Also manages the patron/vassal system.

I think that all the officers should be involved in interviewing potential members and answering questions, not just one. It might be a lot of work for one person. Also, I think the guild leader should be involved in any guild alliances or joint-events in addition to the Guild Relations officer.

P.S. Y’all post too fast :p

[Jaymend]

So I think we should continue to discuss ideas and such, but at some point we will need to decide at a minimum: a guild name, who will be Guild Leader, who will register/host our site/forums, and who will design the site/set up the forums. I think that will get us started and then we can work from there once we have our own forums and such. At what point do we take the next step?

[Darydale]

I don't know when is a good time to take the next step, but as soon as we do, we will become a "pre-release guild," which some people expressed may not be the best thing. If we don't take a step sometime before release, however, the interest may dwindle a bit if there is nothing going on, nothing to discuss in relation to this potential guild.

What does everyone else think?

[Raijyn]

If there are going to be House lords within each adventuring class, I would volunteer my services in the Arcane casters area, as I have a fond habit of picking nukers (and will be playing a sorceror for sure).

As for the guild website, It shouldnt be too hard right now. All we really need is a forum to start posting on. Anything else can come later.

Of course we also need a few more people to get interested in this guild before we do anything really, because as it stands its not much of a guild.

[Razorwire]

I don't know when is a good time to take the next step, but as soon as we do, we will become a "pre-release guild," which some people expressed may not be the best thing. If we don't take a step sometime before release, however, the interest may dwindle a bit if there is nothing going on, nothing to discuss in relation to this potential guild.

What does everyone else think?


I think the first question is are we going forward with the guild?

My anwser is yes. If everyone agress we at least need to anwser the name question. We should have an intact guild structure prior to open beta

[Ieranii]

My personal preference would be that we decide on a name, a general structure (without assigning leadership roles yet), call it a guild and start building a website. I would rather put off picking a leader until closer to launch.

You just never know what could happen between now and then. What if we pick someone and then something comes up irl that makes it impossible for the leader to really participate (shift changes,deployment, computer blows up ect)? It would be a pain to have to replace a leader before the game even goes live.

Just a thought...

[Skarlath]

Should we announce ourselves as a guild any time soon, or would it be better to remain 'in planning' to draw in more people and keep interest up?

Well it's a fair point. By planning so far ahead (unless Sigil suddenly decides "hey, that bunch would be great beta testers!!" :p) we are risking interest dwindling anyway. Even if we announce our formation as a guild, not much will have changed. We'll still discuss things, and that discussion will draw in new interest, hopefully. There is the risk of people feeling as if the guild seems a little more 'closed' and therefore they can't come along as a newbie so easily, but I dont think that would be a particular problem. We are recruiting from those who know us from the forums already - i'm sure they would still be happy to get involved providing we are still talking things through.


Jaymend mentioned needing to pick a guild leader soon. I don't think we really need to - at the moment we can coordinate ourselves. Once we are closer to launch we can work that out. Guild leaders are more about ingame coordination and being a figurehead - for the moment we don't need to worry about that too much.


As for all the site-related questions... anyone have any experience with website design or any arty skills? I have some basic websitey skills, and with enough time and effort could get something together. Can anyone else trump my mediocre skills?

Regarding hosting and such - I don't think it's a good idea to charge into too many obligations just yet. If we hosted on .tk to begin with we could switch to something more permanent nearer the time. I just don't like the idea of anyone having to pay out anything just yet for something so far off.

Edit:

My personal preference would be that we decide on a name, a general structure (without assigning leadership roles yet), call it a guild and start building a website. I would rather put off picking a leader until closer to launch.

Yep, that all sounds sensible.

[Jaymend]

Didn't mean to sound too eager, hehehe. But yeah, things are rolling along nicely. I'm really looking forward to see what comes out of this collaboration.

I have minimal website skills, but know my way around the admin aspects of a standard PHP forum. In other words, I'm useless, lol!:D

[Razorwire]

I don't know that we would necessarily want to spin off into a seperate site yet. We should probably keep the pre formation discussion here on SV so that those that surf here can keep an eye on things with out any hassle.

[Belisarius]

Sorry Ive been missing most of the discussion guys, schedule has been crazy. I have a couple of comments.

Perhaps in addition to designating someone to be in charge of X, we should create several "Minister without Portfolio"'s where they are just people that are officers but have no particular duty. They wear the 'George' hat ie they do what needs to be done, pick up the slack for those other officers that are incredibly busy or have had an IRL crisis.

Forums: I would like to see several different threads dedicated to this guild idea, we jump back and forth between topics, perhaps if we split the discussion into Loot, Leaders, etc, either here or on another forum, we could direct people there. THis is the longest thread I've ever seen on SV, its gotta be hard for people to wade thru 20 pages+ of stuff to see what's going on.

As far as a guild leader, why does he need to have a lot of time, crack the whip etc? A well-trained horse rarely needs the reins, so to should a well regulated guild rarely need the intervention of a guild leader. If we have strong officers, the guild leader should be more like a figurehead.

If we're not sold on "The Long Watch", "Porro Beta Exspecto" means Long Beta Wait in Latin. Latin looks and sounds so cool, try it out here (http://www.tranexp.com:2000/Translate/result.shtml).

And how bout friends and family, my son wants to play, and naturally, I want to keep an eye on what he's doin'. Can he join on my say-so? Can your boyfriend or Aunt Millie? My son knows I'll clobber him if he gets outta line, so 'under my thumb' is the best place for him so he doesn't feel the temptation.

[Ieranii]

I don't know that we would necessarily want to spin off into a seperate site yet. We should probably keep the pre formation discussion here on SV so that those that surf here can keep an eye on things with out any hassle.

I agree...I was thinking more of a building process rather than a gathering/discussion process. I don't know how long it takes to build a guild website or how much they cost. But if we started putting together ideas/plans/code for a webpage then when we wanted to "go live" with it there'd be very little work to do.

I like planning ahead :D

As far as a guild leader, why does he need to have a lot of time, crack the whip etc? A well-trained horse rarely needs the reins, so to should a well regulated guild rarely need the intervention of a guild leader. If we have strong officers, the guild leader should be more like a figurehead.

All I can do is go by past experience and that has been that even in very casual guilds where raiding was not an issue leader presence was definitely noticed. We would have new members ask "why isn't he ever on?". There is also the issue of "the bottom line". Sometimes folks just want to hear the vote of the final authority and in the guilds I've been an officer in that meant the guild leader. In fact leader absence was one of the things members complained the most about. It seems to have been an important morale issue.

[Raijyn]

A guild leader is not important for the standard occurances of the guild, those can be handled by any officer. But a leader is just that, the face of the guild. If we have a guld leader that acts aggressive to others, people will veiw our guild in the same manner.

The same thing about play schedule. Would you really want to see that the guild leader just doesnt seem to care much about the faily activities of the guild? If anything, they have to be the most active, even more than officers, simply because it is his/her responsibility as leader to do so.

But we dont need to have a full time GL yet. Why not set up a poll for the people already interested in the guild, and set up positions accordingly. Than later, we can make things more official with the increase in guild membership.

[Loampounder]

I think we may be overplanning with officers, house lords, ministers at large, patron structure, etc. Perhaps if we had 200 people... <shrug> The guild needs officers to deal with guild business (leader, recuitment/membership, inventory, raid ooficer...) but I suggest leaving the class or job specific leadership positions to the players and the patron system to work out. For example, as shivers gets more knowledge and ability as a crafter, he will get more apprentices and will/should take over a more leadership role in crafting. No, it will not be "official" but as we encourage people to give feedback to the community, those that want to help will begin to ask as officers (and within the area they are interested in). The key, I think, is to stress the positive role of patrons.

[Dreamer]

A lot of these discussions (vassal system, officer structure, loot policy, recruitment, guild size, etc.) are interesting, and good to throw around. They are necessary to the guild creation process. They help us put together an understanding amongst those of us who are interested.

As others have pointed out, however, there’s little use in solidifying any of these discussions this early. First of all, we are unsure of many game mechanics. We are unsure how raiding, crafting, harvesting, etc. will work. Second, we need to decide a few more basic (top-level documents, so to speak) things before solidifying other, more day-to-day mechanics.

So, what do we need for the next step?

First, we need to discuss/write guild goals. This document should be a half-page long for brevity, clarity and ease of understanding. It is the new guild’s charter. It is our basis for why we want to play together. All policies, guild structures, etc. will end up being designed to support this document. To use Bradspeak, it is our Vision. (Goals don’t make us hardcore, btw. Our goal could be to hang out and eat doughnuts. But, our members should know that is our goal. For instance, if a member wanted to hang out and eat bagels instead, he/she might want to find another guild, either that or except doughnuts as the more appropriate breakfast foodstuff.)

Second, we need to agree (ratify, if you will) that a guild, based on the above-stated goals, is interesting for those so inclined, and that those interested are willing to give the guild a try when he or she are first able to play. We need a commitment. If we don’t have a base-level of commitment from founding members, we don’t have a guild. There’s little use in discussing details further, then.

I think we’ll get some good agreement. Based on said agreement, we then need two things. We need a guild name and a guild leader. At this point, we might also want to consider taking these discussions off the SV board. It doesn’t have to be a full website yet, just a place where we can all chat. There, we can vote, cajole, shanghai, draw straws or otherwise determine the guild’s name and the guild’s leader. Once we have those two things done, we can create a guild in-game as soon as enough of us who agree can log on.

Having mapped these basics out, we now are ready for beta, open beta, and/or launch. In the meantime, we can discuss some of the working policies more fully. Having some of these policies determined “off-line”, before the game goes gold helps with a few things:

· We can tell potential recruits what the guild will look like,
· We can do some planning to meet our goals, (what we do at low-level, mid-level, end game),
· We can continue our discussions about policies and structures and begin to put them in place to support our planning. (Not too many, but enough so that there is an understanding. For instance, Conduct, Recruitment, Event/Raid Planning are all policies that need to get in place if not before people are in-game, then soon after.)

Okay, so following the above outline, the next thing is write down the guild’s goals. I will make an effort to consolidate our thoughts from earlier in the thread and formalize it.

From there, we vote.

Are there any objections to this way forward?

[Darydale]

Our goal could be to hang out and eat doughnuts. But, our members should know that is our goal. For instance, if a member wanted to hang out and eat bagels instead, he/she might want to find another guild, either that or except doughnuts as the more appropriate breakfast foodstuff.
hehehe (I like bagels)

Okay, so following the above outline, the next thing is write down the guild’s goals. I will make an effort to consolidate our thoughts from earlier in the thread and formalize it.

From there, we vote.

Are there any objections to this way forward?

I would really like to see your condensed version. :) I also think it might be good to give others an opportunity to comment on it, rather than voting straight-away. Also, if we do vote, I hope it will be more of a vote combined with discussion rather than just "majority rules." Not that that's what you were planning, of course. :)

[Jaymend]

Sounds good Dreamer. Looking forward to reading what you put together from the above discussions. I agree that we all should provide our comments/inputs to the document before we vote on it. If we all have that opportunity, the voting on it will be more of a formality than anything else.

Good stuff, guys. I'm already getting excited!:p

[Dreamer]

I would really like to see your condensed version. :) I also think it might be good to give others an opportunity to comment on it, rather than voting straight-away. Also, if we do vote, I hope it will be more of a vote combined with discussion rather than just "majority rules." Not that that's what you were planning, of course. :)

Oops, yep. I implied that in my head, and didn't write it explicitly.

People need to comment on the goals all they want. I also assumed commenting/voting could be informal and happen simultaneously.

I should have the condensed goals up for viewing sometime this afternoon...

[Razorwire]

Warning long post

Perhaps in addition to designating someone to be in charge of X, we should create several "Minister without Portfolio"'s where they are just people that are officers but have no particular duty. They wear the 'George' hat ie they do what needs to be done, pick up the slack for those other officers that are incredibly busy or have had an IRL crisis.

As has been said I agree that we need to probably step back on the whole give an officer a specific job atm. Right now it's just a person with a public face for our proto-guild. 4-6 at the moment I think will be fine and we can choose the leader from the officers when the time comes.


Forums: I would like to see several different threads dedicated to this guild idea, we jump back and forth between topics, perhaps if we split the discussion into Loot, Leaders, etc, either here or on another forum, we could direct people there. THis is the longest thread I've ever seen on SV, its gotta be hard for people to wade thru 20 pages+ of stuff to see what's going on.

It is getting a bit big and I am rather proud that I think I am managing to keep up. This is a good idea, we should look into splitting this thread up.


As far as a guild leader, why does he need to have a lot of time, crack the whip etc? A well-trained horse rarely needs the reins, so to should a well regulated guild rarely need the intervention of a guild leader. If we have strong officers, the guild leader should be more like a figurehead.

We need one person in charge, a guild run by commitee is a bad idea. Additionally the leader is an icon for the guild and has to be there for people to see that they are involved in the guild.

And how bout friends and family, my son wants to play, and naturally, I want to keep an eye on what he's doin'. Can he join on my say-so? Can your boyfriend or Aunt Millie? My son knows I'll clobber him if he gets outta line, so 'under my thumb' is the best place for him so he doesn't feel the temptation.

I have the requirement that my wife be in the same guild as myself and I think my eldest daughter is about to start playing these sorts of games. So I need a guild that 1 will accept my wife and daughter and 2 be a safe place for my daughter to be. So I am 100% with you on this one of adding family to the guild.

Porro Beta Exspecto

That gets my vote I think it sounds cooler and keeps the in joke thing going.



All I can do is go by past experience and that has been that even in very casual guilds where raiding was not an issue leader presence was definitely noticed. We would have new members ask "why isn't he ever on?". There is also the issue of "the bottom line". Sometimes folks just want to hear the vote of the final authority and in the guilds I've been an officer in that meant the guild leader. In fact leader absence was one of the things members complained the most about. It seems to have been an important morale issue.


A guild leader is not important for the standard occurances of the guild, those can be handled by any officer. But a leader is just that, the face of the guild. If we have a guld leader that acts aggressive to others, people will veiw our guild in the same manner.

The same thing about play schedule. Would you really want to see that the guild leader just doesnt seem to care much about the faily activities of the guild? If anything, they have to be the most active, even more than officers, simply because it is his/her responsibility as leader to do so.

100% agree, even if a icon and a figurehead. The guild leader is a very important icon for any guild. It is the person that we rally around.

[Skarlath]

Looking forward to your consolidation, Dreamer. :)

Regarding breaking this thread up into multiple threads, I don't feel it would be fair on other guilds to fill the "Other guilds" forum up with a multitude of threads devoted to the same cause. If we want to partition the various aspects of our discussion then we need to head somewhere like forumer.com (http://www.forumer.com). :)

As for 'family friendly'ness of the guild - I don't see how it could be a problem. Unless your wife is an avid PvPer and your daughter a forum troll i'd be happy to play Vanguard along side them. Community is what its all about!

A guild run by a commitee just wont last, so we just need to decide when we want to pick a guild leader. There are a few benefits to picking a guild leader early - prominent figure head of the guild from the start to help draw people in - but also some negatives - the guild would seem more 'finished' and that may discourage some people.

Relating to Dary's point, bagels are quite tasty. However I do not feel they are quite as enjoyable in all situations as doughnuts.

Back to names again :p Using latin is nice, but I have two gripes with the name you gave, Bel. First I reckon it shouldn't directly relate to beta, as that might not seem as poignant 2 years into retail. :p Secondly because Porro for some reason doesn't sound very classy to me..

Cool translator though.

Atrum Vigilo? That was it's translation for 'Dark Watch' but when I translate it back the other way again it translates as "Dark to be awake" :confused:

Gelamen Atrum? Gathering Dark

Anyway, i'll sit tight for Dreamer's bitesize discussion. :)

[Loampounder]

I have the requirement that my wife be in the same guild as myself and I think my eldest daughter is about to start playing these sorts of games. So I need a guild that 1 will accept my wife and daughter and 2 be a safe place for my daughter to be. So I am 100% with you on this one of adding family to the guild.
As long as you can testify that they are good people, and seeing that you married/spawned them, that will not be a problem. ;) As Skar said, it's all about community, so I never thought this would be a question. I don't expect everyone to move at the same pace as relatives, but I expect everyone to be friendly and courteous.

[Jaymend]

I'm also planning on playing with my significant other, who is somewhat new to MMORPGs. :)

[shiver]

Ok, not to rain on the "it is cool to invite family idea" but...
I want to talk about this a bit. Sorry, I will repeat myself a bit in this post, a bit too little sleep.

At some point I still would want to see these family members post an application, who they are, what games they have played, if they like donuts, how much they shop and so on. I much prefer to get to know people as who they are not ‘the wife, the kid, the husband”.

I think it is unlikely that a member in good standing would have any problems getting their child into the guild but I would like that child to be part of the community at some level. It will help the person fit in and make friends faster, while it is great to play with a loved one every effort should be made to make them a real part of the guild.

Unless the person is very young there is no reason why they can’t go ahead and start their own forum post (when we have our own forums) or even post on this thread saying hello. Getting to know the community is important since that is what we are all here for. I know some people have shy family members but I think the rules should more or less apply to everyone. (not to mention shyness can is not so bad when your greeted with a lot of hellos the first time you post) A shorter version of the rules is fine but, I don’t see any reason why people who are going to be part of a guild shouldn’t be eager to be a not so quiet part of it.

Please understand I am not saying this to keep people from having loved ones in the guild, I am just saying that it is so much nicer to meet them before they join. I am sure most people are playing in on chiming in on thoughts and ideas and questions but, for those who have family they think might want to join the guild encourage them to post also. I know that many people do just join the same guild as other family members, often because they didn’t get to know the people first through forum posting it can take them longer to fit in on their own merit.

If we do have an abbreviated version of rules for family of guild members we also need to know where to draw the lines. Immediate family only, boyfriends, fiancées, old guild mates, neighbors, family pet?

Anyhow, I just thought I would bring it up. I have seen years of family getting in based on the word of a guild mate, so often they are less likely to speak up for themselves or ask questions. Really, this seems like a nice bunch shaping up here, no one bite that I know of unless you’re a donut, bagel, pie or hmmm maybe a nice steak. I must be hungry.

[Ieranii]

At some point I still would want to see these family members post an application, who they are, what games they have played, if they like donuts, how much they shop and so on. I much prefer to get to know people as who they are not ‘the wife, the kid, the husband”.

Agreed. I'd rather see an application and a bit of chit chat to go with the guild invite for family members.

[Jaymend]

Good points shiver.

My significant other certainly will be a part of the community and will be posting on the forums and such. And if ya'll want an application submitted, I don't have any problem with that. Would be good to go through the process me thinks.

[Dreamer]

Okay, I think this is a good stab at a Statement of Goals/Charter…

Our guild members are players and citizens of the MMO known as Vanguard:SoH. We understand that we have benefits and responsibilities as players and game-world citizens. Foremost amongst these benefits and responsibilities are Community participation, the ability to experience Game Content, the concept of Mutual Benefit, the protection of a positive Guild Culture, and the importance of Guild Organization.

Community

Our guild will contribute positively to the Vanguard Community. Our name will be known and recognizable and be associated with honesty, integrity, good gamesmanship, and knowledgeable, skillful play. To the best of our ability, we will maintain good relationships with other guilds, individuals, and organizations on our server of choice. We will maintain a presence on server boards, class boards, affiliate boards, and the official Vanguard boards.

Game Content

Our members will have access to game content they desire and which is reasonably achievable. We will maintain a guild size that will allow us to viably progress in all spheres of play. Game progression is an ultimate, but not overriding goal. The pace of forward progress in the game will not be mandated, but will be a direct result our membership’s desires and availability for participation.

Vanguard has its roots in traditional PnP, Computer and On-Line RPGs. Our guild will support many forms of roleplaying.

Mutual Benefit

The members will contribute to the guild and the guild will contribute to its members. Our guild is a “core” guild. There will never be required gameplay timeslots or events. Tithes on in-game loot or cash will likewise never be required. Member’s voluntary contributions, time spent in guild events, direct assistance of membership, et. al. will be recorded and recognized. Guild event loot is a privilege, not an entitlement. Transactions between members following this principle are always highly encouraged.

Culture

The guild culture will be supportive of a wide variety of playstyles and lifestyles. All age groups will be represented. Respect is a key ingredient in allowing a diverse membership to coexist and thrive. We will protect our guild culture from inappropriate, disrespectful, and disruptive behavior.

Guild Organization

Our guild will maintain an organization to run the affairs of the guild. The organization must include a guild leader. The guild leader is ultimately solely responsible for achieving the goals set forth in this document. He or she may seek volunteers, arrange for a vote, or otherwise appoint leadpersons and officers to support him or her in this endeavor. The leadpersons and officers must recognize their responsibility to support the goals of the guild according to the guild leader and this document. These leadpersons and officers must further recognize that their position confers no additional privilege over other members of the guild.



Notes to aid discussion:

· This charter is top-level. Don’t expect it to answer all questions. It should answer why and what questions. How, who, and when questions should be answered in other, more focused documents. Eventually, we can probably hyperlink the documents together so that the document structure reads top-down.

· I’d like to include a note about guild organization, because I feel I may have raised a few eyebrows here. We can argue about how much power the guild leader should have, but ultimately once he or she has the reigns of the guild in game, it’s probably hardcoded that he/she can do anything he/she wants with the guild once it’s formed. We have to recognize that from the top-level, and then build a system around that reality.

· Please add your comments, additions, and suggestions. Otherwise, please indicate your satisfaction or dissatisfaction with this charter.

· I plan to add a topic of discussion in the Adventure forum on the OVF. There are many things we don’t know about guilds. It doesn’t hurt to ask a few questions. Maybe we can get lucky with some new information, but I won’t hold my breath. ;)

[Jaymend]

A good start. Did you get a chance to look at what I posted a while back?

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23172&postcount=119

It has an attachment with a lot of "guild charter" stuff in it...

[Ieranii]

I really like this, especially right now. It has enough information to give us a foundation without being the final word on everything. It's very tweakable. Good job!


Game Content

Our members will have access to game content they desire and which is reasonably achievable. We will maintain a guild size that will allow us to viably progress in all spheres of play. Game progression is an ultimate, but not overriding goal. The pace of forward progress in the game will not be mandated, but will be a direct result our membership’s desires and availability for participation.


Eh? Is that a typo or am I just thick skulled and not getting it?


Otherwise it is lovely indeed! I think at this point we don't need everything spelled out in minute detail. This is a good start and we can tinker with it as we go.

My two cents
:)

[Dreamer]

A good start. Did you get a chance to look at what I posted a while back?

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23172&postcount=119

It has an attachment with a lot of "guild charter" stuff in it...

Yes, Jaymend I did and I think we'll use alot of the good stuff contained in that doc.

But I think, for now, a broader stroke and an acceptance of our general direction is more important.

Let's agree to a general statement (specifically, without the clutter of details that we don't need to get hung-up on now) of intent and then move forward by creating more specific individual policies in the future.

The question then is, based on the (very) general principles outlined. And understanding we will hammer out details that support the above principles. Would you commit to a guild that wants to do those things?

I'll be the first to say it.

I will be a member of this type of guild, and I will commit to giving it a go at launch.

[Razorwire]

If we do have an abbreviated version of rules for family of guild members we also need to know where to draw the lines. Immediate family only, boyfriends, fiancées, old guild mates, neighbors, family pet?



I would also like to encourage family members to post and stuff, I hadn't really concidered it. We want family members to be part of the community that we are building and not just sharing a guild tag with their main guild member. I personally would like to see family members much more active in this guild then I have seen in others.

As for abbrivated family admissions (not rules everyone has to follow the same rules, member, officer, leader) I would limit it to blood or SO. And all I would really change for a family member/SO is that they are immediately put into probationary and maybe have a reduced time period or reduced required number of yays from other guild members. I would like to keep some of the requirements just for the get the family member in the community reasons.

[Ieranii]

I will be a member of this type of guild, and I will commit to giving it a go at launch.

Ditto

[Skarlath]

Firstly - Shiver's comments on family members joining the guild.

I absolutely agree with your sentiment. It would be a very sensible and healthy thing for the individual to introduce themselves to the guild in the normal manner. Ultimately the member of the guild to whom they are family is vouching for them, and so are responsible to ensure that they conduct themselves in an appropriate manner. Much of the recruitment system should occur as normal, but in a less formal manner - as someone said, a chat with them would be good. No formal interview of any sort would be necessary and there would be no need to reject them.

If a problematic situation arose, for example a renegade boyfriend ninja-looting from other guilds and talking leet-speak smack to them, then it could well be the case they would need to be dismissed from the guild, providing the option of their relative intervening had already been exhausted to no effect.

It would just be nice if the family member entered on similar terms to everyone else so that they can really fall into the pace of things far more comfortably, and so we can all get to know them more smoothly. :)


As for Dreamer's charter - he (she?) has done a good job so far, it's looking quite nice. Perhaps a specific mention of the patron/vassal system would be a good idea? It could be phrased that the guild uses a multiple chains of responsibility and attachment to the guild so that all members feel involved with the guild and have help available whenever they should need it. :)


As for commiting:

I am happy to commit, however... Blizzard claimed all along that they would have intercontinental servers, but pulled the plug on them at the last minute causing me to lose the guild I had played two consecutive games with. Brad hasn't even commited Vanguard one way or the other. However, assuming I can, I will.

We musn't get too hung up on commitment though. By all means try to commit, but we are a long way from release. I wouldn't want people's fears of commiting so far in advance to scare them away from the discussion. :)

[shiver]

Ok I thought I would try to consolidate a couple of the ideas here. I recommend people new to this thread try to read everything even though it will take awhile. Still, here are some of the things we are looking at in terms of rules and structure. (I will be happy to edit/add to this as people pm or post)

Guild Name:
Unknown

NBG system is looking like:
a. upgrade on your primary set
b. upgrade on secondary set
c. alt or cash loot

Raid loot system allocation: unknown but several have been discussed.
1. NBG
2. DKP
3. Or Loot Council

Guild officers and Leaders 4-6 likely will be needed.
1. guild leader
2. crafting/resource/harvesting officer
3. Raid Leader at release or later in the game
4. diplomat officer (if needed)
5. Those with the top levels in the class are likely to be asked many questions and be the ‘go to’ person on their class.
6. Recruitment officer in charge of making sure the patron/vassal system (or whatever we end out calling it) and generally watching recruitment.

Guild size:
Looking for enough to make more then one full group at all times. Will likely end out in the 100 active players range.

Recruitment Step Suggestions
1. Application
2. Voting system by guild mates
3. Sponsored by guild member
4. Probation period
5. Required to hunt with guild members or officers before joining.

Family members of known guild mates may have less requirements for joining.

Patron/Vassal system is strongly being considered. There are several posts on this and it is likely that the name of the system will be changed to something that people find more palatable.

[Jaymend]

I certainly don't mind committing, especially if Ieranii is in. I've talked with her on Vent and interacted with her shortly via AGRO Radio, and she's definitely will be an asset to the guild.:)

I'm like Skar and have one caveat. I am scheduled to deploy to Iraq August-December this year. As such, I obviously won't be playing Vanguard during those times. I will be back and plan on starting up at the beginning of January. If I'm lucky, Vanguard will be a Christmas release, and all will be good. If it's a spring or summer release, I'll be missing out on a LOT. So if y'all don't want me in the guild based on that, I will certainly understand and will look you up upon my return!


Family members of known guild mates will have less requirements for joining.
I almost think they should have the same requirements as anyone else to make it fair, but either way is fine with me.

[shiver]

Ok changed the wording to that they (family) may have less requirements. :)

Good point about joining a guild then being gone a long time. I liked to keep guild rosters pretty clean and had no problem with booting people who are gone for more then fourty days or so unless I knew why they are gone. Guilds with 400 people only 20 of which are active that drive me nuts.

If someone has to travel, blows up their computer and so on if they let the guild leader or whomever know what happened and when they will come back (more or less) they should stay on the roster I think.

[Razorwire]

We musn't get too hung up on commitment though. By all means try to commit, but we are a long way from release. I wouldn't want people's fears of commiting so far in advance to scare them away from the discussion. :)

Brad has said that he does not want regional servers and wants everyone to be able to play on every server. But has also said that he can't promise one way or another.

If we have regional servers any and everyone that contributes to this set of documents should be entitled to use them to set up either their own guild or to create guild shards on different servers that share a common forum.

[Razorwire]

Dreamer, great document!!!

Shiver good break down of what we are talking about at a broad level :)

For guild roosters I think that given we are a core guild we should be much more lenient than a hardcore guild that may kick you out after 1-2 weeks. I would propose a 30-45 day log in timer with the caveat that if you talk to an officer or the leader we won't kick you off at all.

ie player A tells the guild leader I am going to be away from teh computer for the next year but I want my spot held in the game. That would be fine, I wouldn't expect a member to tell us why they were going to be missing just that they are going to be missing.

Player B leaves the game and doesn't tell anyone and therefor would be removed after 45 days.

On family members I think since the entry requirements in general are pretty relaxed we don't necessarily have to lower them farther for a family member. Basicly at this point we are at, hey a guild member thinks this person would be good for the guild, people agree and yay new guild member (how we get there is still under discussion)

The other thing that I see, to be picking up from the rest of you is that we do not want a PvP server. I think we should "offically" agree for a PvE server and discuss rulesets later if we have them on offer.

Also concider me committed

[Razorwire]

Complete plagerisation of the posts by Dreamer and Shiver up at http://www.scarletrazor.demon.co.uk/SilkyCore.html

[Skarlath]

Wha? Is that yours, or has someone just randomly stolen it?! :eek:

[Razorwire]

sorry that is mine, just a spot to have it all in one space. you can email me at razorwire at scarletrazor dot the rest of it

[Ieranii]

Did we really decide no Pvp/rp type server? :( I musta missed that.

[Razorwire]

Did we really decide no Pvp/rp type server? :( I musta missed that.

No we haven't decided that, I was probably jumping the gun there but it does seem that many don't want a PvP server.

[Skarlath]

Did we really decide no Pvp/rp type server? :( I musta missed that.

People seemed very against a PvP server, and I feel the same way. I'm just not interested in fighting off PKers the whole time - it changes the entire feel of the game and the guild.

As for an RP server and such - we didn't really give a definite no on this, but as we aren't a 'strictly roleplay' guild it'd make more sense to place ourselves on a 'normal' server. :D

[Loampounder]

As for an RP server and such - we didn't really give a definite no on this, but as we aren't a 'strictly roleplay' guild it'd make more sense to place ourselves on a 'normal' server. :D
I am not "strictly" rp, but I usually play on RP servers because the community is better.

[Razorwire]

RP servers do tend to have very good community, but I am not set on one. As for PvP I am in the not interested in a PvP server because I don't want to deal with PKs either, I have yet to come accross a PvP system in MMO that really has a point in my opinion.

[Jaymend]

I vote PvE. RP or not - doesn't matter to me.

P.S. If my deployment to Iraq is gonna be a problem, let me know. Just wanna know where I stand. Thanks!

[Darydale]

I wouldn't be opposed to an RP server. I played on one in WoW. I am curious how different the ruleset might be on an RP server, however. We'll have to find out closer to launch, I guess :)

And Jaymend, I don't see a problem with you being gone.

[Raijyn]

I hate to say it, but Im really awful at RPing, im just not the most creative writer. I would hope for this to be on a reg PVE server, but dont let my voice bring down the majority decision, Ill still help out with the foundation of the guild anyways

[Loampounder]

I hate to say it, but Im really awful at RPing, im just not the most creative writer.
This is probably the biggest misconception of RP servers. It takes no creative writing - respond in the voice of your character and don't talk about real world issue or game mechanisms. Saying, "I need to complete a quest given to me by friendly dwarf at the docks, so I am hunting for giant bears" is great roleplaying, as opposed to "LFG lvl 10 warrior to do shield quest 2, need 3 bear killz, PST" of "SOE blew with that last patch, moved my +3 AGI belt to +1 STA".

Of course, Sigil are the kind of people to have a RP-server with special server rules. We will just need to see what they are when they come out and judge then.

[Razorwire]

If we end up on an RP server or not I would like the guild RP policy to be something like the following.

Roleplaying:
Members are welcome to roleplay with in guild and with in guildchat, however they must remember that not all members like to or want to roleplay. Everyone must respect the choice that the other has made.

Personally I am a roleplayer so I will roleplay in chat

Jay - I have 0 problem with you leaving the game for your tour and I would be more than willing to keep your character in guild.

Raijyn - Don't let 'the's and 'thou's confuse you, that is really only a subset of RP. All that you need to do to be a great RPer is remember to anwser as your character would. Take on the role of what ever your character is and talk like that. Take a Wood Elf Druid vs a Orcish Monk. Both characters would have very different views on teh world. Given the situation of they are both in a group deep in a dungeon, you have just made your way into a gnoll kitchen where they are spit roasting dwarves. The wood elf would probably be revolted by the smell if not horrified by the serving a sentent race for dinner, where the Orc would probably be getting really hungry.

The game gives your the situation and your reaction is the Roleplay. React as your character would, but don't get yourself stuck into my character will always do this or never do that. Three dimensional characters are more fun then two dimensional characters. Playoing a paladin? Instead of the standard I refuse to group with evil or dread knights. Why not join the group and try and convert them to the cause of good?

Roleplay is all about interaction with other players and having fun. If you aren't having fun RPing you are doing it wrong.

[Belisarius]

If you aren't having fun RPing you are doing it wrong.

Amen.

MY objection is not to PvP per se, but to FFA PvP. RP or Team vs Team PvP would be fine with me but not Free for All.

[Raijyn]

Roleplay is all about interaction with other players and having fun. If you aren't having fun RPing you are doing it wrong.

Heh heh, Im going to have to keep this quote, its a good one. As for rping, Im always up for trying something new, and this case is no different. And as long as people arent too particular or catch me every time I break character, Ill probably get a good expererience out of it.

Which leads me to my next question, since we know of the three starting continents, where exactly is this guild going to be located? If each of us starts picking different continents than its all for naught. I understand its kinda early for people to start picking main characters, but it might help to establish a HB.

[Razorwire]

Heh heh, Im going to have to keep this quote, its a good one. As for rping, Im always up for trying something new, and this case is no different. And as long as people arent too particular or catch me every time I break character, Ill probably get a good expererience out of it.
RP Nazis suck! If you RP with me I can promise that I won't spazz out on any of that sort of stuff.

Which leads me to my next question, since we know of the three starting continents, where exactly is this guild going to be located? If each of us starts picking different continents than its all for naught. I understand its kinda early for people to start picking main characters, but it might help to establish a HB.

I can almost promise that I will be from Kojan. The races I like and character classes that I will probably be playing are from there. BUT I think we should base the guild where ever the most of us start I have no problem hauling my elven hinney where ever needed. My current thoughts are

Half Elf/Kojani Monk
Wood Elf Druid
-something- Warrior

[Jaymend]

If each of us starts picking different continents than its all for naught. I understand its kinda early for people to start picking main characters, but it might help to establish a HBO.
There's no possible way we can all start on one continent and enjoy the game. I'm not willing to force someone else to play a certain race/class for the sake of starting in the same place. I say people should play the race/class they want. The first goal of Vanguard is to have fun and the largest part of that is what class you play. Just because we all don't start off together, doesn't mean we can't be a guild. In fact, there has been some really good discussion in this thread (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593) which argues that starting off on different continents might actually be beneficial to the guild in the long-run.;)

[Raijyn]

Well, I can almost be certain Im going to be playing on Thestra. Most likely as a High Elf sorceror, but Im cool moving to a different continent afterwards.

Does anyone know if Sigil is still implementing that boat ride that allows a player to transfer to a different continent?

[Jaymend]

I honestly don't know what continent I'm starting off on. It will all depend on what my final race/class combo turns out to be, which I probably won't know until shortly before the game is released.

I remember either Brad or Jeff mention during Fanguard that lower level characters will be able to find each other fairly early in the game. I'm guessing no later than level 15-20 we should be able to find others on different continents and start grouping/raiding as a guild. And of course, those of us that start on the same continent as others in the guild can start grouping and exploring much earlier than that. But even if some start off on the same continent, all the races start off in different areas of the cotinent.

[Razorwire]

http://www.scarletrazor.demon.co.uk/classes.html

going to try and track what people want to play. Just so people have a reference.

[Belisarius]

I don't have a race preference, but my class will be diplomat/bard or disciple maybe inquisitor if Sigil adds that adventurer class before I max Diplo. Brad had said that you would be able to change any of your 3 sphere classes before level ten, dunno if that is still the plan. So any continent is fine with me, but I'm kinda partial to Qalia.

[Skarlath]

Servers: I'd actually prefer not to play on an RP server. It's not that big a deal for me, but i'd just to prefer a straight PvE I think. I do a bit of RP now and again, but not that seriously. If I played on an RP server i'd feel obliged to roleplay, and I just don't like that. It's not that I'm scared of the rp-nazis :o but rather that I just would feel that it was a bit of a hassle. It's good fun, but when it's on my terms, if you know what I mean. If on a normal PvE server then we would be free to roleplay when we wanted to and avoid no-rping guildmates feeling awkward or uncomfortable or whatever.

Characters: I'm kinda leaning towards a Raki, but that's not set in stone. :)

Starting locations: We'd kind of want to get together as soon as possible, but obviously we don't particularly know how this is going to come about. However its an obvious problem, so i'm sure Brad and Co will have thought of *something*.

[Darydale]

My main will probably be a high elf cleric (or possibly Theastran). I was just thinking, though, maybe we should just have the "guild" continent be the one in the middle? It seems as if all of us want to pick races in different places (er, rhyming here). I just realized I don't even know which one is in the middle though... Anyway, just an idea :)

[Ieranii]

I vote PvE. RP or not - doesn't matter to me.

P.S. If my deployment to Iraq is gonna be a problem, let me know. Just wanna know where I stand. Thanks!


As far as I'm concerned it's no problem Jaymend. I think you wouldn't want to be in an officer position but I cannot see why you couldn't be on the roster.

Razorwire - Definately a healer type and also diplomat, probably Qalia or thestra for starting continent, not sure yet which.

[Skarlath]

Once the NDA is lifted we should be able to plan out roughly where is easist for us all to meet. It might be quite fun all setting off to find each other. Quite an adventure :D

[Loampounder]

Once the NDA is lifted we should be able to plan out roughly where is easist for us all to meet. It might be quite fun all setting off to find each other. Quite an adventure :D
Not easier for me, as I have no betalove. I've gotten so pessimistic that I am not hold my breath for beta3. Was it something I said? :confused:

[Razorwire]

Not easier for me, as I have no betalove. I've gotten so pessimistic that I am not hold my breath for beta3. Was it something I said? :confused:

I didn't even get to apply for beta :( But here we go, need to change our guild name to be the same and hope Brad says hey they are cool let them in :)

[Raijyn]

Well, one thing I would suggest, even before getting a guild site going, is to have atleast one person really interested in each of the spheres to act as a representative for the guild, one for adventuring, one for diplomacy and one for crafting. After that, they can scour around to different forums and drum up support in their own fields. I say this because it seems like we have a lack of crafters right now, and it might be a wise idea to get a few into the guild before launch. That way, by the time we get a site going, we have a strong roster already present, which will make finding more and better members that much easier.

[Ieranii]

Not easier for me, as I have no betalove. I've gotten so pessimistic that I am not hold my breath for beta3. Was it something I said? :confused:


Ditto. :(

Well, one thing I would suggest, even before getting a guild site going, is to have atleast one person really interested in each of the spheres to act as a representative for the guild, one for adventuring, one for diplomacy and one for crafting. After that, they can scour around to different forums and drum up support in their own fields. I say this because it seems like we have a lack of crafters right now, and it might be a wise idea to get a few into the guild before launch. That way, by the time we get a site going, we have a strong roster already present, which will make finding more and better members that much easier.

Good idea! I'll run over to Vanguard Crafters and start a post about us!

[Jaymend]

It might be quite fun all setting off to find each other. Quite an adventure :D
/agree

It's going to be fun talking in game to eachother in /gu and also posting on the forums telling each other about our various areas. And by the time we all do meet up, we'll have learned the interface, how the game plays, and all the "basics" so we'll be ready to combine our skillz to kick butt! Just make sure to take lots of screen shots so when we make our memory album/guild video, we'll have shots from our original starting points. :p

On another note, I appreciate your understanding with me being deployed. It will be nice to have a guild and community to come home to! I just hope Beta 3 starts sooner rather than later so I can at least contribute to the game before I leave.:)

[Razorwire]

Right, so just to push this forward a little. Name! What are we calling ourselves? The Long Wait? Umbra Vigilo (Shadow Watchers) to tie into a sekret orginisation of explorers. Fiery Volcano! What were the other sugestions?

[Skarlath]

Perhaps mixing the idea of a single word name with the idea of using latin:

"Umbrus" - Shadow

Perhaps before we can decide on a name we should agree on the general theme and roleplaying intent of the guild, if you know what I mean.

The one we discussed earlier was that of a mysterious, secret, closed, exclusive organisation. I dont think this means we cannot be good - I would like to see this external view tied in with being extremely moralistic.

Anyone have any alternative ideas?

[Razorwire]

We are Umbrus, a secret society of Adventurers, Diplomats and Crafters that have watched and guided society over the course of history. We feel it is our duty to help to protect our various peoples from the evil of that threatens our lands and that which will destroy what we love and hold dear.

Gets my vote.

[Raijyn]

ooh, we should all learn latin, and use it only in guild chat :D , that way, no other guild can understand what were saying.

Just kidding, but a latin name would be nice.