How much work is ok on a salary position?

[shiver]

I figure that a lot of the people here have salary jobs. How much do people think is a reasonable or normal amount for a person to work when a project (in this case soft ware upgrade) is being done?

For example: from now until the middle of May my husband flys out Sunday afternoon and returns Thursday night. On Friday he had to go into work at the office here. Saturdays he has off unless there is a short deadline to meet then he works Saturday. It is not just him, it is the whole department. If the flights are running late or delayed it can get a bit ugly. He might get home Friday morning, shower and head to work, no sleeping other then what he caught while waiting on delayed flights.

Now really, how common is this sort of thing? I understand project deadlines but this seems crazy. The raises that were due at the start of the year have not been paid yet. Since they have to pay for all the expenses of traveling the credit cards get a hard work out. The company can take up to a month to pay them back.

It is not like there is time to go find another job either. There is no time during the week day to be taking phone calls or planning interviews. I don’t know, this whole thing just doesn’t seem right to me. I can’t help but wonder how normal this is.

After May the whole thing repeats at another plant. What joy.

[Lord_Vyper]

For example: from now until the middle of May my husband flys out Sunday afternoon and returns Thursday night. On Friday he had to go into work at the office here. Saturdays he has off unless there is a short deadline to meet then he works Saturday. It is not just him, it is the whole department. If the flights are running late or delayed it can get a bit ugly. He might get home Friday morning, shower and head to work, no sleeping other then what he caught while waiting on delayed flights.

Now really, how common is this sort of thing? I understand project deadlines but this seems crazy.
With my job, I probably worked the same number of hours as your hubby, but didn't have to do the whole flying back and forth thing. You typically start out doing normal 8 hour days, and the closer to the deadline you get, the harder/longer you work. The last month or so of my last project, I was working 16-18 hours a day, 7 days a week. I'd wind up passing out in the office, and only going home 2-3 times a week.

The raises that were due at the start of the year have not been paid yet. Since they have to pay for all the expenses of traveling the credit cards get a hard work out. The company can take up to a month to pay them back.
Travel expenses usually wind up being the worst part of any arrangement with a company, since most companies use employee travel expenses as tax breaks, they usually shift to whatever tax schedule the company is using, not the pay schedule.
You might want to try working with the company to do something like half expenses up front, and half at the end of the month, assuming travel costs are relatively constant. Hopefully the company will be willing/able to work with you on it.

[rabb1t]

I believe it is understood that some positions extra work isn't necessary, but expected. (Therefore the company can claim you are doing it because you want to.)

I believe in the cases of deadlines, when it is expected, there is also an implied compensation of sorts, a 'break' that you get a few extra days or week or whatever off after the crunch occurs.

One of my roomies here is/was at a job where everyone was salaried. The reason for this was because the company was abusing the salaried status. They were working all employees 50+ hours a week, with no compensation. (You get your salary, that is it. No bonus at the end of a period, no extra time off, no nothing.) In such a case what can be done depends on the law in your state (the one you are physically working in.) (Here you may be in a tight spot as the company could argue that he isn't working directly in state x due to the flying. I'm not sure.) We live in CA, so working people 50+ hours a week regularly under the 'protection' of salary is very illegal and all of them basically backed up their records for the day they would bring the company to court. That day has not come yet, as the salaries are ok enough that the peeps aren't quite unhappy enough, but from what I've heard nearly everyone has a very solid record on how they are always working 40+ hour weeks with no compensation.

I'd say look into the employee law in your state. The employee development department website should have some info or contact number.

Even if he has no time to find a job now, even though it sounds like a risk, you may want to back up those records for a bit and threaten/do take them to court. A settlement could easily pay enough to cover your time to find a new job if they truly are breaking the law to a high enough degree. My roommates said if they ever did go to court against the company they could easily expect to see two+ years of full salary in the settlement.

[Razorwire]

That much work and no extra money? Time for a new job. In my opinion that sort of company deserves 0 loyalty and your hubby would be much better off getting another job, even if it pays a little less.

I am willing to work up to 5-6 hours extra a week with out extra compensation because it is what I signed on to do. But I also have an arrangement with my boss, if I stay late I can take that time off later.

[Jaymend]

Salary jobs usually have a higher amount of responsibility. That said, you may be expected to work more than the standard 9-5, M-F. If you see yourself putting in an excess of 40 hours a week, than you have to ask yourself if it's worth it. Unless you are on a contract which dictates labor hours and such, in most cases you gotta do what you gotta do to get the job done.

Of course, I'm in the military and often put in more than 40 hours because I don't have any say in the matter, lol. But I also realize the benefits I get (paid vacation, tax breaks, medical coverage, etc.) far outweigh any extra hours I may put in over the course of any given week.

If the pay/benefits can't/don't justify the hours, time for a new job if you ask me.

[shiver]

Yah, I agree it is time for a new job. Tricky looking for one while this is going on though. Good news is two people turned in notices this week and some more will do the same in two weeks. It may just end out that the project gets killed from lack of people to do it.

That is really interesting about how Cali has the rules on how much people can work under salary conditions. That makes sense. I know he is out the door at 7am when he travels and gets back after 8pm of course, they all have dinner together. Not travel days are normally just 8am to 6 or 7.

At this point the pay/benefits don’t justify the hours. I will start checking into the labor laws for salary positions. This sort of schedule was decided on last moment by ‘the powers that be’.

Anyhow, thanks a ton time for me to go snooping about and seeing what we can do.
:D

[Razorwire]

can always do the imfamous "I'm sick and not about to get on a plane" on interview days and I never had a problem scooting off the the side to take a call on my cell from a recruiter ;) Also people will understand if you are getting worked to death and if they are interested they will help you set up a time to meet them.

A prospective employer will work around things to try and meet with your husband, as with my current job I am in the UK and I had to interview with people in San Diego! Since your husband is traveling so much they may be willing to schedule a telephone interview for the first round and then if they like him move to in person for round two. In addition to a phone interview they may be willing to have a saturday interview for second round.

[Labyrrinth]

Hard to judge on whether or not it's *ok* as far as your husband is concerned. You don't mention if they compensate him in some other way for all that OT (sounds like a LOT of OT to me) From what you write it sounds like it's a pretty consistent thing though :(

I work in IT and am a salaried employee. I generally work a 37.5 hour week, with OT happening *maybe* 1-2 times a year, for a week or so. And because the company I'm with treats us so well, I really don't mind working over when it's needed. They make sure we get extra time off if we do work over, they provide incentives like trips, recognition, various types of bonuses, etc on a consistent basis. Heck about 2 weeks ago we were taken to go play Demolition Ball for the day.

I don't think I could work for a company that required I work OT on a consistent basis - at least not without some form of compensation (time-off, money, something). That's just them taking advantage of the situation as far as I'm concerned. Being salaried is suppose to be a two-way street. With that said, we do have a project coming up which will require a ton of work - but considering how easy I've had it the last few years, I'm more then willing to put in the work needed. Again, it's a give and take here.

On another note, I thought in the US there was a law that was passed that protected salaried employees from being taken advantage of - something to the effect that if you worked over x amt of time per week, you were to be compensated. Maybe it's only applicable to companies over a certain size.. I honestly don't remember the specifics

[shiver]

Compensation would help. For this project there isn’t any planned. Not only have the raises not gone through but the only bonus for completing this upgrade is they have another one starting two weeks after this finishes. This project that was supposed to take over 3 years to do (30 some plants) they decided it could be done in under two years. They seem to be under the impression that just by shortening the time they want it done in, it will take less time. Rofl. I think that time off, completion bonuses, etc would make a huge difference for something like this.

Definitely one of the things about IT is that people know at time they have to work some crazy hours. That is part of the job but, normally there is some down time when things are slower. Some how that idea got lost for this job. :p

If I recall correctly the laws that protected salaried employees have some wiggle room depending on what type of IT you are. I am still hunting around for that.
I think it has to do with Tech support they can get overtime but programming they can't.

[Razorwire]

Definitely one of the things about IT is that people know at time they have to work some crazy hours. That is part of the job but, normally there is some down time when things are slower. Some how that idea got lost for this job. :p

.

Yes we work crazy hours but they are supposed to pay us for them. Any company that doesn't pay for crazy hours doesn't want people working for them.

[Neijya]

I've never been in that situation myself, but my boyfriend had to work 80+ hours per week during a number of weeks, when the game they were working on was about to be released.

They did not pay overtime, but they gave a lot of time off.

Look at it this way: the government can tax your overtime, but not your time off ! ;)

[Nólaquen]

It is very unusual for me to work only 40 hrs per week. The average is 60, the peak is 80. It is not just me, but everyone in the dept. as well. The good news is that I don't have to travel and the hours are whatever I want them to be (within reason). They're just normally long days and sometimes weekends.

Is it pretty common in the industry? I'm not sure. It seems pretty common among software more than anything else, though. It's odd, but I have never seen a hardware engineer stay beyond 5:00pm, but it's unusual for a software engineer to leave that early, even if they got in before 8:00am.

[Belisarius]

Sorry. Can't comment on the un-compensated OT. My job is 40hrs/wk with OT pay for anything over 8hrs/day 40hrs/wk, OT any Sat and DT on Sun.

My real worry is with the Credit Cards, unless your husband signed something saying he would put those expenses on his credit card, I say stop that right now. This is just wrong wrong wrong. I'm sure the company makes/saves money on the work your husband does so requiring him to pay for the privilege of working for this company is evil.

If t'were me, I'd tell em you had to cancel you CCs cause your wallet got stolen and you're not gonna get a new one(s) so, either pony up a corporate Amex or gimme some cash.

This is a real sore spot for me. :ninja:

[Neijya]

My real worry is with the Credit Cards, unless your husband signed something saying he would put those expenses on his credit card, I say stop that right now.

This got my attention as well... especially with the "being late up to one month" part. Do they pay the interest ? How is your credit report affected by carrying a balance (I mean, I know that most, if not all of us, have carried a balance over from one month to the next, but if it does affect your history in some way, and you're not responsible for it...) ?

[Tindiyen]

Quite simply if you arent being properly compensated, find something else. Work 80 hours a week but your salary is twice the normal no probelm. Same if you get lots of comp time etc. Some companies just run people into the ground and reap the short term profits, then rinse and repeat under a new name/contract. If there wasnt a good reason to stay I would be gone.

[shiver]

Yah the credit card thing is a trip. Right now there is a little over 3k on it. And that is just for a little over two weeks in travel. If the company is late enough that we get charged interest then we add that to the expenses. They really need to get company credit cards but, for the company of course paying back people is so much better then them using the money.

Long term it doesn't affect our credit rating but I guess if we went house shopping when there is a lot of charges on it that could get commented on. I don't think the amount has gotten over 8k in the past, we will see how it goes. I never even thought about that aspect of it.

I think even Dilbert would object to some of this stuff. Lol.

It sounds like both the IT department head and the manager over the oracle side are planning on leaving with-in the next month and a half and they are trying to line up jobs for people. I just don’t get it, why would any company who is spending millions for an upgrade kill off the people doing the upgrade this way… It is just stupid.

[Razorwire]

It is because they don't think about people being real they are "just company resources" and can be replaced. Any company that treats you like that is one to run the hell away from. Best luck to your hubby Shiver but if I was in that situation I would hand in my 2 weeks and worry about getting a job from there (course I have kids to feed etc so would be a very hard desission to make)

[Kullall]

That's ridiculous. I hope he makes damn good money. I make a decent amount but I have never worked more than 40 hours in any given week. Usually less.

[Valerius]

I work at and manage a IT Help Desk for a government contractor on a military installation and we do have some crazy hours. Our hourly employees (of which everyone but me is hourly) get paid OT the minute they go over 40 hours/week.

As for myself, I usually put in about 50-55 hours a week during a normal week, and from 55-75 during crunch time (AD migrations, server crashes, etc.). My company usually compensates me with bonuses (sometimes), or sends me to schools (MCP, MCSA, A+ etc.) without much fuss and or sends me to IT events (going to TEch Ed this summer in Boston for example) and pays for it all, so I guess I can't complain. I sometimes feel that I'm working too hard for what they pay me, but then again, if I stop and add in what going to those schools or conferences costs the company... it probably works out.

IT is tough when it comes to "set" schedules and servers have a way of knowing when a weekend rolls around so they can start acting up.... :twisted:

[slvrsrpnt]

hi folks, I'm new to the forum, and reading this at work :D
I am a salaried employee that works 12 hour shifts over nights and odd days (mon, tues, fri, sat, sun week1 and wed, thurs week2) it averages 42 hours a week, so it's not a real horror show.
I know several of the other professional people I have to get involved on problems (whether it is support, management, executive, etc) are also salaried and really get hammered with extra hours. I have one of the few professional positions that are just do your shift (12 hours in my case) and you can go home - no pager, no cellphone, no work bothers during nonwork hours.

[Hannar]

Salaried employee at a mortgage company here. The hours in my current position are fantastic, basically 9-6 daily with one 4 hour saturday every quarter. But in the position prior to this one, it was no shock to work a 60 hour week... sometimes days from 4:30am-10pm in the worst case scenario, but we have always been fairly compensated for that. I've been really fortunate to work for a fantastic company.

[Annuna]

Government contractor here, doing software development. We kind of get the best of both worlds, as that I'm salaried, but I'm not expected to work more than 40 hours a week. Actually, in a lot of ways, I'm spoiled rotten...flexible hours, do some work from home, plenty of vacation, good benefits, decent salary. The major drawback is putting up with government BS, which is truly on a different level.

[Xyrrus]

I am willing to work up to 5-6 hours extra a week with out extra compensation because it is what I signed on to do. But I also have an arrangement with my boss, if I stay late I can take that time off later.

Exactly - what goes around comes around. If you're in a job where its demanded that you work more than 40-50 hours on a somewhat regular basis, the company should be compensating you. I worked a few days over christmas break this year and got a vacation day for each day I came in. I'm here late some times, but if I take off a few hours early on friday to go out of town, it isn't questioned.

Bottom line is if you don't feel you're being treated fairly, its time for a new job. My company, for instance, cuts reimbursement checks weekly. The people who travel here love taking care of their own travel arrangements because they rack up a ton of miles and credit card points just for doing their job.

-Xy

[Sergo]

I know this is much easier for me to say than for you to do, but hold that company accountable! Shiverhubby should quit. If companies can get away with treating employees like that, they will.

Also... raises and bonuses not paid? Sluggish credit card reimbursenments? Sounds to me like this company is not in the best of shape financially, and may not provide long-term security anyway. Bail now.

[shiver]

Good news the search for the new job has started.

He is still working those horrid hours with the traveling but have started making some calls.

We might not really have anything for a couple months but have stopped waiting on management to figure out what they are doing. (they kept saying "one more month and we are quitting and will take you with us")

I vote for moving back home to the west coast. lol, it is were most of our geek friends are. :D

[Razorwire]

Good luck and as a bit of job hunting advice apply for everything under the sun and don't pin your hopes on one position. Treat the postings like the recruiters will treat you, give it about 5 seconds before you hit apply or move on.

[Raya]

It's scary to be looking for a job, but better to do that than have a sinking feeling that where you are at is worse than Doom III.

Good luck on the job hunt. It seems to me that shiverhubby (good name, Sergo) has many fine qualities for him to have stuck to his company after treatment like that. I hope other companies see that and snap him up faster than a dieting crocodile :)

[Sergo]

Upon rereading my post, I find that "reimbursenments" is a really good word, too. :o

[Annuna]

Indeed, good luck on the job hunt, and always remember, its better to look for a job while you have one than when you don't. Just be patient and look for a good fit.

[shiver]

*cough* now for part 2 of this situation.

Any ideas on what is 'normal' signing bonus for a job like senior business analyst? Anyone think 10k is unreasonable?

:)

[Lord_Vyper]

*cough* now for part 2 of this situation.

Any ideas on what is 'normal' signing bonus for a job like senior business analyst? Anyone think 10k is unreasonable?

:)
I just accepted a job offer from a company here as I.T. director, and I got around 15k in various benefits. Not signing bonuses per se, but more like up front 401k contribution, stock, and 1/2 a car (don't ask about that one :p)

[Razorwire]

umm no idea never had a signing bonus so doing better than me

[shiver]

hehee 1/2 of a car?

:D

ok, ok I won't ask