Religion in MMOG's

[Labyrrinth]

1635 Many MMOG’s try to incorporate some very light aspects of religion into their game, from the paladin, a paradigm of all that is holy and good, to the evil god worshipping dark elf priest. Demons and angels, good and bad, and right and wrong. Religion done light.

With all of these modicums of religion, you’d think at some point we’d actually be treated to the real thing. Not real world religion in-game, but real game religion with beliefs that have incurred consequences incorporated into it. Not that I’m against real world religions, but in a game it’s my belief that incorporating real religions would bring nothing but problems, discriminations, and a lot of conflict, something we already see on a day-to-day basis in our “real lives.”

With that said, imagine having religions based on the game itself, its lore and its history. A game where your choice of religion would actually affect how you’re treated in a virtual society. Where adherence or non-adherence to a code of conduct had consequences and purpose. Where membership in and sacrifice for a larger organization plays a part in who you are, your affiliations and your standings.

Imagine a game where a paladin was rewarded for his selflessness, where perhaps he gained reputation or improved his standing with his god or his community for helping out weaker characters. Imagine a game where the dark elf paid homage and gained honor with his god by carrying out specific acts of espionage or non-descript killings, even against his own kind. Imagine all of this playing in and upon each other, creating conflict and contrast for the participants, all dependent upon your choice of religion. Perhaps there could even be a religion that unites good and evil, thereby driving a wedge between people of the same race. Oh the possibilities…

1636Similar to the real world, where there’s a known “evil” there is also a known “good,” but evil and good are open to interpretation based on your beliefs. Within a religious context, there could be a questing or adventure system where a dark elf is assigned a specific task. Perhaps that task is to bring back the head of a holy paladin NPC. At the same time that the task is generated for the dark elf, a corresponding task is generated for a holy warrior, his assignment is to protect that NPC paladin. You then have two or more characters, good vs. evil, involved in a struggle over an NPC, each believing their goal to be the right one. Each striving to complete their assigned task in order to do their part in bringing order to a chaotic world.

As it is, the conflict between good and evil is a constant theme in the gaming arena in general. It is one of the foundations of the fantasy genre. The dark elements, the horror, the seemingly insurmountable evil would render this genre pointless without the ever-defiant forces of good to struggle through. Consequences of an in-game religion can be used to give people a focus, something different to strive for, to attain. By setting up some kind of contrast for the participants, motivation is created, along with tension and with each side working for what they believe in, you could even create purpose and meaning.

[GnomerBreltik]

EQ1 had a small small hint of this in the form of factions that couldnt be changed based upon what religon you were. I wouldnt doubt it a bit if Vanguard has a smattering of this as well. Religon in the real world is big factor as far as relations and even economics, it would be interesting to see this happening.

BTW, excellent subject Labyrrinth!

[Tachyon]

Interesting idea. The problem I see though is that, while a sizable majority of people like to play "good" characters, a sizable majority of them tend towards "evil", or at least more neutral, self-centralized behavior. And some evil people may choose to be downright nice in certain situations. I think there would be lots of issues with people choosing what they thought they were, and finding out that they were really something quite different.

Religion in the real world is the same way. Their are the religious doctrines about how adherants should behave, and then there is how they actually behave. A very small portion of our real world is orthodox in their belief system and even less in their actions, yet the fantasy world religion you depict is far too based around orthodoxy.

Maybe a way to address this would be having "devoutness" as an option. This way the much more common casual believer would be distinct from the religious fanatic, and the system would better reflect the reality of human coexistance that is much more about shades of grey than black and white.

[Severoth]

These aspects of in-game religions, are they not much like being a member of an in-game faction or society? It seems like you are talking about factions/societies just with a religious flavor. Factions in previous games affect the way others view you (sometimes just NPC's, sometimes just PC's, sometimes both), and factions open/close doors to quests & other opportunities. I feel like this already is a part of many games.

[Labyrrinth]

It could be as simplified as just a faction system, but I was actually thinking of making it a more in-depth or intricate part of the game. I obviously haven’t thought everything out. Right now it was just an idea that’s open for discussion :)

Personally I’d love to see a where your choice of religion, the god you worshipped, etc could and would play a role in how you were viewed in different areas of the game. It would be separate from what we know as a faction system.

A religious type of system could allow for far more intricacies, more interactions, and more/fewer rights in areas, perhaps allowing for entry into certain churches / buildings within cities. Maybe something like, normally you’d be KOS in a certain city, due to your faction with that city. However because of your status with your chosen god, you can walk that city freely. Now that doesn’t mean you can interact with the merchants, because they still don’t like you, and regardless of how you build your religious faction, they’re not going to like you – ever. Nor will they speak with you.

In a similar vein, certain quests would be open to you alone based on your religion and/or your standing within that religion

EQ for example had a diety based factions, as well as regular city/race factions. The two were separate and distinct, though there wasn’t a lot of depth. I don’t see why another game couldn’t expand on that

[GnomerBreltik]

Back when I played NWN more regularly I came across a RP server that required clerics pray to their chosen diety in order to recieve their full complement of spells. Of course in that game clerics could become overly powerful, and this kept them in check. Another server also had it where it was absolutely required that you choose certain abilities if you chose a certain god, I.E. a dark diety of undeath would not have access to specializing in healing and turning undead, but they would have more power in death magic and disease based attacks. Clerics and other classes that administer the faith as well as adventure have many possiblilities for variance both game mechanic wise and in RP, it just depends on how the world works itself.

[Severoth]

I see what you mean. But still, the overall affects of your chosen religion still seem to be the same as that of a chosen faction/reputation/society in many games.

Just to give an example from WoW, for performing tasks for a certain faction, I gain reputation with them. At low levels of reputation, I'm not KOS to them, but I may not be able to speak with many of their NPC's to receive quests. And their vendors will limit what items I can buy, etc. However, if I complete tasks for that faction (sometimes killing opposing faction members or sometimes collecting items, etc.), then my reputation increases. If my reputation with faction increases enough, NPC quest-givers might be willing to talk to me and vendors might be willing to sell me better items or give me discounts.

If I start killing this faction's members, I will lose reputation until I become KOS with them. I also lose reputation for performing tasks for the opposing faction.

Sometimes, the level of your reputation/faction determines what areas you have access to. With too low of a reputation, you aren't given access to certain areas/NPC's. If I'm a member of the Horde and I haven't killed enough of the opposing Alliance members, I don't receive the reqiured rank to enter the officer's barracks to have access to vendors selling better equipment.

Are these effects of faction standing not similar to those you mention for a chosen religion? If implemented like EQ, the only difference I see, is that maybe you can't alter your chosen faith. It may be a permanent decision from character creation. Especially when you're new and ignorant of the effects of choosing a religion, making such an "unchangeable" decision from character creation can become a huge downside to the game. If you can alter religions, then I'm still uncertain as to how it differs all that much from factions.

As for religions being separate from city factions, there are many unrelated factions in games. Sometimes the city faction has little or nothing to do with your faction with the "Secret Society of Magicians."

I apologize for berating this subject, but it seems like these mechanics and ideas already exist. They just simply haven't been labeled religions.

[armsakimbo]

I apologize for berating this subject, but it seems like these mechanics and ideas already exist. They just simply haven't been labeled religions.
Well, to be fair, they haven't been done in a very interesting fashion either.

I'd like to see a much more complex and nuanced treatment, given a fantasy world where the gods take a hand in events:
- a clear distinction between religious factions and favor with gods,
- multiple religious factions for some gods (culture-based), with varying degrees of sympathy/alliance between them,
- significant risk to gaining substantial favor in your patron god's eyes, depending on where you go and what you do (i.e. godX's favorites get special treatment of a markedly unpleasant sort whenever they come to the attention of opposing godY).

Just because your lizardman from Deep Lagoon is the apple of Crom's eye does not mean that human ArchPriest Conan of the Temple of Crom in Nujarusi doesn't want your head on a pike. Heck, depending on the sort of worshippers Crom attracts, being the apple of Crom's eye might be the reason that Conan wants your head on a pike.

[Liin]

I remember way back when that Horizons was going to do these very things in-game. Angels and demons were to be mortal enemies and could kill one another. There are other examples that the original developer was working on. I was very excited at the prospect of what was going to be done there at the time.

[Xanoth]

to give a simple responce, the problem lies in game dynamics. most games are purely static in content other than with patches.

in essence we my play 3d games, but their mechanics are nothing more than a 1d sliding scale on a faction bar, its a great write up and i totally agree and would love to see that level of depth and complexity in a game world, but i dont really see it coming any time soon.

small steps might take place towards greater depth to MMORPGs, but i think it would take a great risk to push the barrier and cause other more expected and common areas of MMORPGs to be "thinner" than my be expected. there is only so much money to be made from these games, so resources have to be directed somewhere, pushing for this level of depth and dynamics is bound to leave some areas lacking.

a way around this would be licenced game worlds... like how vanguard is using the unreal engine, whats to stop a production team licencing vanguard its self, to make an alternative rule set version of the game and tread different ground... such as religeon and consiquence.

[Age of Sages]

While as Severoth stated, this concept isn't completely original, how many really original ideas do MMORPG's come up with now? That's why Sigil is guarding their diplomacy stuff so much.
I think the religion idea if done properly can be a nice addition to a game.

Good post Labrynth

[Severoth]

With all of these modicums of religion, you’d think at some point we’d actually be treated to the real thing. Not real world religion in-game, but real game religion with beliefs that have incurred consequences incorporated into it. Not that I’m against real world religions, but in a game it’s my belief that incorporating real religions would bring nothing but problems, discriminations, and a lot of conflict, something we already see on a day-to-day basis in our “real lives.”

Maybe this is the reason why most games stick with "factions" rather than implementing fully fleshed "religions." I mean, even an in-game religion is going to pull ideas from real world religions. I can already see the player base getting upset that this in-game religion makes this real world religion become asscoiated with "evil." Just a thought. Most game developers probably want to steer clear of this predicament.

Forgive me for being so persistent. But, I still don't understand how the effects of religion discussed in this article differ in depth or mechanics from the way factions and their effects are currently done in many other games.

[Tazzrin Jaegernaut]

I think something that is even more intriguing than the "good" god worshipping character and the "evil" god worshipping character is the "neutral" character.

Lets put this in perspective:
We'll say the "good" worshipping character is the pally.
The "evil" worshipper is the dreadknight.
The "neutral" character is the warrior.

I picture the warriors as the godless beings who fear no god at all. They live a life of reckless abandonment and the god-fearing people around the warrior look at him with curiosity (as well as jealousy as he has no obligations to any religion) as to whether he knows if the possibility of an inevitable doom surrounds him like a shroud of death. There is not a doubt in my mind that god-fearing people will fear the man who fears no god.

The "neutral" character in my opinion is FAR much more scary to me than any other. Instead of seeking the safe cradle of a specific religion, the warrior decides to rough it out throughout life killing all in his way without a second thought.

After all, why choose to follow a specific religion when you can tell them that you will bow down to no one, man or god, and take their loot? :twisted:

I guess its safe to say that the beserkers worship the god/s in their head.

[Khaalis]

Personally, I too would love to see religions more deeply intertwined into the MMO. As asked earlier, there are many way in which this can be done that is not just faction oriented. A lot of the religious aspects would fall into the Diplomacy sphere for example, whereby you use your religious affiliation as leverage to either impress or to intimidate as the case may be.

Religion should also have a very large impact on classes, especially the Cleric. We have already seen where the Shaman has to choose a totemic patron, so can we assume the cleric also has to choose a Patron Deity?

If so, does this mean that clerics of Deity X have different powers and spells than clerics of Deity Y? They should. A deity of Strength and Conquest should have a different focus and specialty than a deity of Light and Healing. Each deity should grant not only a specialty bonus to spells that fall within their ethos, but unique spells and abilities that other deities do not grant.

They should also have the standard differences in faction. They should also have certain limits and boons on their powers based on whom they are casting on.

Examples:
* Cleric_01 casts a harmful spell.
Since their offensive spells are meant to harm enemies - they would act normally when used thusly. However, if the cleric attempts to cast such as spell on someone of their own religious faction (or an ally of said faction) they either have the spell severely reduced in affect or they suffer some other penalty (in addition to the faction hit) such as maybe a divine debuff that lasts 24 hours or so.

* Cleric_01 casts a helpful spell such as a buff or a heal.
When cast on generic goodguy_01 (based on religious faction view) the spell acts normally.
When cast on a member of the cleric's own religious faction (or an ally of said faction) the spell acts better than normal, maybe a +10% effectiveness.
When cast on an enemy of the faction, the spell has a reduced affect and or the cleric suffers a penalty to their faction or another possible divine debuff "punishment".

In a system like this, everyone can benefit from having a patron deity. Those they remain "neutral" have the advantage of gaining "standard" spell effects from clerics of all faiths, while those who wish to devote themselves can benefit highly from clerics of their own faith.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head. I doubt we will ever see this level of depth of religion in an MMO though. As previously stated there are too many possibilities for "problems" arising from the conflict of game-religion vs. RL religion. We all know that those with such orthodox religious beliefs shouldn’t be playing such a game, but they do, and the developers need to take that into account. Its just easier to avoid the headaches and the ensuing possibility of legal battles.

JMHO. YMMV.

[Razorwire]

I think good vs evil are over used and the shades of gray and perspective need to be worked on in main stream heroic fantasy.

didn't read the whole thread at this time but from what I saw lots of good stuff here.

[Morwynn]

I can see this ending up almost as another sphere. Actually it could be mixed with the current diplomatic sphere, which I hear may be having trouble as it is.

But I can see where you could worship before major battles for a little extra protection, provide offerings to the god for a safer passage across the seas, or even have certain times more advantageous for certain actions. And each god/diety can offer different protections/aides and are not necessarily compatible with others in your group that may choose a different path to worship.

This would aveneu has not been fulling investigated and I wish it would be. When I think about the possibilies I keep comming back to "Dark And Light" where the moon phases actually effect actions of each faction. Since there is limited Bad vs Good, the gods will have to smile more than they scron the followers, but the possibilities are there.

I think it would add alot to the game, but I bet the devs already have a headache from the current diplomatic sphere, much less us dumping more into their laps. Let us keep our fingers crossed in hopes that they can work more of it into the game as time permits.

[Valander]

I've been playing a Paladin in WoW and I'm currently waiting for Vanguard's release with great anticipation. Being a Paladin has absolutely no meaning unless your actions have some consequence such as better standing for aiding the poor and down-trodden. Quests for Paladins that encourage them to act like Paladins are all well and good but what does it matter if your a Paladin during the quest and not all the time? Of course the reverse can be said for Necromancers for instance...shouldn't they be given a system of reward for delving deeper into dark mysteries concerning life and death (ie Dr.Frankenstein)?