Changing Around The $1k System

[hawkheart]

Well, someone on the OVF just sent me over here and looking at the $1000 system built by Fozzik, I thought about getting it. The only thing is that I'm trying to cut down a little bit on the price. I already have a hard drive, and a monitor, so that lowers the price to the 900 price range. Since this is my first attempt at constructing a computer, I was just wondering if I could switch out the video card selected for a BIOSTAR V6802XA52 GeForce 6800XT 512MB 256-bit GDDR2 AGP 4X/8X Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814141026)?

[Hoarder]

Negative, the board in the Quote is an PCI Express Board and only fits in that type of slot. I am unaware of any boards having AGP and PCI Express, the board you suggested you wanted to purchase, the BIOSTAR is an AGP Board. This is an older style video slot.

[JAdams]

Ditto Hoarder, try this on for size... eVGA GeForce 7600GT (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130017)

[Fozzik]

Welcome to the boards. :)

You could pretty much switch out for any PCI-Express video card you want, just be aware that changing video cards will give you the biggest performance hit out of any component you could possibly change.

There's a reason why the cheapest system I recommend is $1k. You can go a little cheaper and still be ok...but not much. If the price gets much below $800 or so, you are starting to get vastly inferior performance for only small drops in the price (check out my price/performance curve (http://www.silkyvenom.com/?page=articles&articleid=25), it's one of Fozzik's laws). You also start to lose other important things...like longevity of the machine and upgrade potential.

What price are you wanting to spend? There are probably other changes we could make that would lower the price a little without having a big effect on performance.

[hawkheart]

Thanks for the responses everyone :)
I am willing to spend up to $1000, but i'm leaning towards the $800-900 price range. I am looking for a 512mb video card, but I'd settle for a 256(which is better than my current 128, which runs most games smoothly on a medium setting). I guess I'll check out newegg for some PCI-Express cards, hopefully I'll find a cheap 512mb :D

[hawkheart]

Found a nice 256mb GeForce card, got nice reviews, supposedly can run many games on high without a hitch. Anyone have/used this card? Or is there something better I can buy for a little bit more money?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143049

[Gargen]

Found a nice 256mb GeForce card, got nice reviews, supposedly can run many games on high without a hitch. Anyone have/used this card? Or is there something better I can buy for a little bit more money?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814143049

That thing has a $65 mail in rebate right now making it about $80 total. Normally I'd make a push to try to get you to get the card Foz recommends, but at that price it's hard to make a case for anything else (as long as you're fast enough to get the rebate, otherwise go for the eVGA 7600GT as it's $15 cheaper and has a better warranty).

[Danth]

"I am willing to spend up to $1000, but i'm leaning towards the $800-900 price range"

I recently built a $930 PC (just the box, I used the old peripherals). The system stats are as follows:

Coolermaster Centurion case
Antec 500W Power supply
2x 1 gig A-DATA DDR2-667
Intel C2D E6300
ECS SLIT-A mainboard
Creative Labs X-Fi extreme gamer
EVGA Geforce 7900GS
Sony optical drive
Western Digital 160 gig SATA-II hard drive (16 meg cache)

Considering that the sound card was $70, if you went with onboard sound that'd put you at right around $860-$870. The power supply limits me from upgrading to something like an 8800GTX, but I never buy such high-end parts anyway. If you were to use the Geforce 7600 card that you linked, onboard audio, and a couple other different parts, you could probably drive the list price down into the $800 range.

Danth

[hawkheart]

Thanks again for the information.
Danth, that system sounds really good and in my range. I already have a hard drive too, which would lower the price even more. At the moment I'll go check out the prices and see if it is all good :D

[evilsofa]

How about this system?

Rosewill R5604-TBK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16811147033) $45
FSP Group AX400-PN 400W (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104953) $42
MSI 945P Neo3-F Intel 945P (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130059) $77
Intel E6300 1.86GHz (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115005) $184
Wintec Ampo 2GB (2 x 1GB) PC2 5300 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820161677) $185
Pioneer Black DVR-111D Dual Layer DVD Burner (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16827129001) $33
eVGA 7900GS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130056) $176 ($156 after $20 mail-in rebate)
No hard drive since you don't need one
Total: $722

That $79 price on the 7600GT linked above is quite a shocker, and would reduce the price of this system to $625. The 7900GS is 40 to 90 percent faster than the 7600GT, so this price drop actually seems appropriate.

This system would not be for overclocking or SLI/Crossfire.

[hawkheart]

All of these systems seem exccelent for my budget! Now all I have to do is figure out what/which to purchase. I am considering getting a system to overclock and use SLI/crossfire, but would anyone mind shedding some light on me about the plusses to doing such? Evil's system is very good, so I was thinking about changing that around to make it overclockable/SLI/crossfire, but would that mean changing most of the system or just a part or two?

Thanks,
Hawk

[evilsofa]

If you want good cheap SLI, Fozzik's $1000 recommendation motherboard is the one, but that is not really an overclocking motherboard. Doing both 8x SLI and overclocking, your minimum board is probably the Asus P5N-E (the new 650i SLI board) for $144, or Fozzik's $1500 recommendation motherboard which is really well known for overclocking. There are a number of interesting cheaper P965 boards that overclock well, but they have one 16x PCI-E slot and one 4x PCI-E slot when doing SLI. Choosing the motherboard was probably the toughest thing I had to do when building my system.

Also, for overclocking, you'll need better RAM; the RAM I recommended here should work just fine at stock speeds but its overclocking potential is unknown (and most likely not good). This (http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=28&threadid=1966035&enterthread=y) seems to be a good guide about some of the RAM that overclocks well. If someone has a better overall source of info about overclocker's RAM, I'd love to see it.

[Gargen]

All of these systems seem exccelent for my budget! Now all I have to do is figure out what/which to purchase. I am considering getting a system to overclock and use SLI/crossfire, but would anyone mind shedding some light on me about the plusses to doing such? Evil's system is very good, so I was thinking about changing that around to make it overclockable/SLI/crossfire, but would that mean changing most of the system or just a part or two?

Thanks,
Hawk

SLI/CROSSFIRE:

Pros - Can obtain the best performance money can buy, can be used as an upgrade option down the road, sometimes better performance can be found for cheaper

Cons - Increased power requirements, increased heat, increased noise, not all games support SLI/Crossfire or scale well, situations when SLI/CF is a better upgrade option than a new card are rare, times when SLI/CF provides better performance for the buck are usually minor performance increases and only on the games that support SLI/CF and scale well

Overall - The only time I could see SLI/CF being justified is for an ultra high end system in the $3000+ range as there are just too many cons for the shaky benefits at other price ranges


Overclocking:

Pros - increased performance for "free"... or at least less $$$ up front

Cons - increased power consumption, increased heat, reduced component life, reduced system stability (although if done well, this shouldn't be an issue), voids many warranties

Overall - If you aren't completely comfortable being your own tech support, I wouldn't recommend it as you will have system stability issues while you find the sweet spot and may have to do things like manually reset your BIOS... and nobody will tell you that is what you need to do either, you'll just need to know that and then know how to do it. If you're laughing at the trivialness of that task, then you'd probably be set, otherwise I wouldn't do it. Also, you need to have a pretty decent overclock to get any noticeable benefits. The more you overclock, the more the "cons" come in to play.

Bottom Line: If you need to ask if you should overclock, you probably shouldn't. Overclocking is usually something that people do once they've built 5-10+ systems and feel like adding some spice to their computer.

[rabb1t]

Overall - The only time I could see SLI/CF being justified is for an ultra high end system in the $3000+ range as there are just too many cons for the shaky benefits at other price ranges

The up-front cost of cards are also different. Going with, say, dual 7600 GTs vs a single 7950 GT is the difference of $150 at a time vs. $300 at once. Also, you can put things like a second card on gift lists, at which point that would be free.

As has been stated before - dual card is good if you can afford two of the best every generation or if you don't have access to large amounts of cash all at once.

[Fozzik]

Gargen and rabb1t are wise.

Please... read my first post in this thread again before going any farther with picking out your parts, hawkheart. If you want to save $100 or so off of my $1k recommendation, the place to cut is NOT the video card. The video card and the CPU are the most important components when it comes to gaming...and they should be the last things you save money on.

All components are important, of course...but there are better ways to save $100 than seriously gimping your GPU.

Also, you started this thread talking about wanting to build an $800 or $900 computer. Then you suddenly started talking about dual-GPU and overclocking. These are fairly contridictory ideas... either you are building a "bang for your buck" gaming system that will give you good performance on a tight budget, OR you are going to look at things like dual-GPU and overclocking.

Although about 10 years ago overclocking was about buying cheaper components and getting more performance out of them, nowadays overclocking usually means spending more on parts. What Gargen said is very true... you are almost never going to see noticeable benefits from overclocking your typical computer...not without a TON of playing with things and extra hassle (and usually extra money spent). It's not a very smart way to go if you are looking to get a solid computer for a very low price.

You said you can carry over your hard drive...what size is it, what's it's rotation speed, etc? If it's an older drive, it might really hold back your new machine. If it's fairly recent (7200 RPM hopefully with 8MB of cache at least) then it should be no problem.

If you are carrying over your hard drive, that knocks $80 off my $1k system right there. Then switch from the power supply I recommend to the one that evilsofa linked. That saves you another $50 or so. Bingo... you are already under $900 and you didn't change anything that will effect performance. :)

[Danth]

"If you want to save $100 or so off of my $1k recommendation, the place to cut is NOT the video card. The video card and the CPU are the most important components when it comes to gaming...and they should be the last things you save money on."

As a counter point to this, more isn't always better--especially not in a budget PC. If you desire a certain performance level, buying parts which perform substantially beyond that level represents a poor investment if it means giving up other items. On a current budget PC, you'll be getting a 7-series Nvidia or ATI equivalent card. A 7600GT and a 7950GT will *both* be outdated in a year or two, and if the lower model provides adequate performance you can use the difference in price elsewhere. For example, in my PC I went with a 7900GS instead of a 7950GT because the cost reduction allowed me to fit a good sound card into my budget. Unlike the video card, the sound card will still be useful 5 or 6 years hence (I used my SB Live! card from 1999 until last week).

That said, I wouldn't feel confident with a 7600 card, but each of us must determine our own performance requirements. I run my games at 1024x768, so my needs are a lot different than someone who runs on a high-res widescreen. Fozzik's recommendations represent the general performance level you'll obtain under a given budget, but any specific system should be tailored to the buyer's own unique needs.

Danth

[hawkheart]

I'm thinking about all of this, and there is a possibility that I'll go a little bit over $1K because of the rebates. The reason for doing so is running two 256mb video cards. I still havent figured out which ones yet, but thats just my current idea.

[Julianr]

I'm thinking about all of this, and there is a possibility that I'll go a little bit over $1K because of the rebates. The reason for doing so is running two 256mb video cards. I still havent figured out which ones yet, but thats just my current idea.

The amount of ram on a videocard is not indicative of its power. I dont know what you plan on, but 2 cards in sli will be more expensive and less powerful than 1 better card.

I dont think anyones mentioned either, that dpeneding on how old your HD is, if you keep it, it may be quite the bottle neck.

[Julianr]

Heres a quik list of GPU power. No numbers or anything, but a good overview of the power rankings.

001. Geforce 8800 GTX SLI
002. Geforce 8800 GTS SLI
003. Geforce 8800 GTX
004. Geforce 8800 GTS
005. Geforce 7950 GX2 Quad SLI
006. Radeon 1900 XTX CrossFire
007. Geforce 7900 GTX SLI
008. Geforce 7800 GTX 512MB SLI
009. Geforce 7950 GX2 1GB
010. Radeon X1950XTX 512mb
011. Radeon X1900 XTX 512MB
012. Geforce 7900 GT SLI
013. Geforce 7800 GTX 256MB SLI
014. Radeon X1800 XT CrossFire
015. Geforce 7800 GT SLI
016. Geforce 7900GTX
017. Radeon X1900 XT 512MB
018. Geforce 7600 GT SLI
019. Geforce 7800 GTX 512MB
020. Geforce 7950GT
021. Radeon X1950PRO (replaces X1900GT)
022. Geforce 7900GT
023. Geforce 7900GS
024. Radeon X1800 XT 512MB
025. Radeon X1800 XT 256MB
026. Geforce 7800 GTX 256MB
027. Geforce 7800 GT
028. Radeon X1800 XL
029. Radeon X1800 GTO
030. Geforce 7600 GT
031. Geforce 7800 GS
032. Geforce 6800 Ultra SLI
033. Geforce 6800 GT SLI
034. Radeon X850 XT PE
035. Radeon X800 XT PE
036. Geforce 6800 Ultra
037. Radeon X850 XT
038. Geforce 6600 GT SLI
039. Radeon X800 XT
040. Geforce 6800 GT
041. Geforce 6800 GS
042. Radeon X800 XL
043. Radeon X800 GTO 16
044. Radeon X800 GTO2 (Unlocked)
045. Radeon X850 Pro
046. Radeon X800 Pro
047. Radeon X800 GTO
048. Radeon X800 GTO2 (Locked)
049. Radeon X800
050. Geforce 6800
051. Radeon X800 GT
052. Geforce 6800 XT
053. Radeon X1600 XT
054. Geforce 7600GS
055. Geforce 6600 GT
056. Geforce 6800 LE
057. Radeon X700 PRO
058. Radeon 9800 XT
059. Geforce FX 5950 Ultra
060. Geforce FX 5900 Ultra
061. Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB
062. Radeon 9800 Pro

[rabb1t]

The reason for doing so is running two 256mb video cards. I still havent figured out which ones yet, but thats just my current idea.

If you are buying at once you never want to do this. A single more powerful GPU is the better bet/deal.

The only reason you'd want to dual card lesser cards is if you couldn't afford to get them both at the same time; in other words, if you didn't have a larger amount of $ to spend at once.

Ex: $125 at x and then another $125 6 months later, vs. $250 at once.

[evilsofa]

That's a very interesting ranking of video cards. I checked around briefly at some reviews and that seems to be about right, but what is the source of the list and what is the measurement being taken?

[hawkheart]

Thanks rabb1t and Julianr. That list was also very helpful.

[hawkheart]

Okay, so far I've come up with a little compilation of the parts I might order.

COOLER MASTER Centurion 5 CAC-T05-UW Black Aluminum Bezel, SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811119068) $49.99


MSI 945P Neo3-F Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 945P ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813130059)$76.99

Evga 7900 GS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130056) $175.99

Rosewill RP500-2 ATX 2.01 500W Power Supply 115/230 V
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817182016)$48.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300 Conroe 1.86GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E6300 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115005) $184

GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144046)$194.99

Pioneer 16X DVD±R DVD Burner With 5X DVD-RAM Read Black ATAPI Model DVR-111D - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827129001)$32.49

Along with the rebates, it comes out to about $743.44

[Gargen]

Go with this memory:
GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820144046)
It's a tad bit more at $194.99 (after $20 instant rebate vs $184.99 post instant rebate), but is from a much better brand. Also this power supply:
Rosewill RP500-2 ATX 2.01 500W Power Supply 115/230 V (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817182016)
It will allow more headroom down the road for $5 more.

[rabb1t]

Evga 7900 GS (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814130056) $156 after rebate. Way more powerful GPU.

[hawkheart]

Okay, with the 3 recommendations from rabb1t and Gargen, I changed it around.

[Gargen]

Looks about as solid as you can get for $750.

[hawkheart]

Yep. So, if there isn't anything really bad about it, than I think I'm going to purchase it sometime soon.

[Julianr]

That's a very interesting ranking of video cards. I checked around briefly at some reviews and that seems to be about right, but what is the source of the list and what is the measurement being taken?

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/index.cfm?a=wiki&tag=rmp_vds

[evilsofa]

It turns out that didn't match up very well with results from Tom's Hardware, like these:

Half-Life 2 Episode 1 1280x1024 (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=606&model2=608&chart=198)
Oblivion Outdoor 1280x1024 (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=606&model2=608&chart=206)

You even have to be careful using Tom's interactive lists, because when you select the low resolutions (like 1024x768) the cards at the top of the list are being tested in CPU-bound conditions. The rankings in those tests gets goofy because you are seeing the speeds of the CPUs in the various computers used in those tests rather than the speed of the video cards.

[Julianr]

It turns out that didn't match up very well with results from Tom's Hardware, like these:

Half-Life 2 Episode 1 1280x1024 (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=606&model2=608&chart=198)
Oblivion Outdoor 1280x1024 (http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics.html?modelx=33&model1=606&model2=608&chart=206)

You even have to be careful using Tom's interactive lists, because when you select the low resolutions (like 1024x768) the cards at the top of the list are being tested in CPU-bound conditions. The rankings in those tests gets goofy because you are seeing the speeds of the CPUs in the various computers used in those tests rather than the speed of the video cards.

Yeah it isnt perfect. Apart from overestimating SLI its pretty good though. Its a good overview, if you havent kept up to date with cards. Then you can get some knowledgeable people like the ones that post here to iron out the details. :)

[rabb1t]

Then you can get some knowledgeable people like the ones that post here to iron out the details. :)

The detail I'd iron out with Tom's is that you really want to go with their 1600x1200 results, as that's closer to 1680x1050 (the current standard).

Unless you are on an older monitor and actually using 1280x1024 their lower tests (1024x768 and 1280x1024) can be a bit off.

But yeah, they can be pretty good for getting a general idea between certain cards.