Healing Aggro?

[Khartack]

Hey guys,

I am trying to find out how big of an impact healing does in terms of aggro. Would be great if I could gatehr some information here :)

Thanks in advance for any infos ;)

Khartack

[freefall99]

Hi,

it really depends on a number of things

- How much aggro your tanks are dishing out
- The power of the heal spell
- How close are you to the mob

I play a lvl 32 Cleric and can say from experience with a 6 man goup ( me being the desig. healer) I rarely (1 in 20) get aggro from the mobs.

[Tenks]

I don't have any hard numbers, but as a blood mage I dish out some decent DPS and main heal my entire party without grabbing aggro. Only time healing aggro seems to be an issue is if the mob is untoutched on the pull and I need to heal.

[Jeters]

totally depends on A) how good your tank is and B) what kind of heal you're doing.

for example, as a bloodmage my main lifetap-style heals seem to pull minimal aggro. I can chain-cast all day if I want and unless something goes horribly wrong I have nothing to worry about. However, if I switch to group heals there's a much better change I'll pull aggro if I'm not careful.

[Ferrer]

I agree with the previous posts about having a good tank and your dps and hps (healing per second... is that an accepted term? It should be :D ). I've also noticed that aggro will transfer to you quite easily from your defensive target if the %td has been doing any cc. If that's confusing, here's a situation to illustrate:

Your defensive target (%td) attempts to mezz a mob and fails, thus generating a lot of hate towards the %td. When the %td starts taking damage and getting healed, the mob will suddenly shift their hatred to you (even though you have done about equal or less healing than in a "normal" combat situation).

Admittedly this is rare, but is something to look out for. Just cast a few deaggro spells if you can and you'll be fine.

[Khartack]

Thanks for your info guys! Helped a lot :)

[uaprsf]

Does anyone know what the threat formula is? i.e. 1 hp healed = 1 threat

[Lalkin]

Does anyone know what the threat formula is? i.e. 1 hp healed = 1 threat

1dmg = 1hp healed = 1 hate

[cprender]

1dmg = 1hp healed = 1 hate

I don't think this is true and here is why? If my BMG is in a group that pulls a couple of mobs, and I cast a 700 pt flash heal on the MT, I invariably end up with the unengaged mob beating on me. This is to be expected. If I use our crappy detaunt, Numb, which sheds 450 Hate, the mob turns and starts wacking on someone else usually. I don't know what is going on, but there seems to be some hate reduction on Heals.

[Kovacs]

totally depends on A) how good your tank is and B) what kind of heal you're doing.

for example, as a bloodmage my main lifetap-style heals seem to pull minimal aggro. I can chain-cast all day if I want and unless something goes horribly wrong I have nothing to worry about. However, if I switch to group heals there's a much better change I'll pull aggro if I'm not careful.

Wow. The Bloodmage class lead?? Can you be a little more vague please. A. Why would a healers aggro number (i.e. hate per pt. of heal) change whether the tank was Really good or Really crappy? And 2. I don't want to go to far out on a limb there, but let's see if I've got this straight. Group heals aggro for MORE than single target lifetaps?

Actually it probably doesn't. The per point Hate/Heal ratio is probably exactly the same whether it's a group or single target heal, I think. Now that you mention it I wish that the development team had chosen a player out of the community who would have the responsibility of testing this sort of thing during beta. Oh well.

1dmg = 1hp healed = 1 hate

Are you sure or just guessing because it makes sense to you? It's possible but it doesn't seem to hold up under testing.

[Dashel]

Wow. The Bloodmage class lead?? Can you be a little more vague please. A. Why would a healers aggro number (i.e. hate per pt. of heal) change whether the tank was Really good or Really crappy? And 2. I don't want to go to far out on a limb there, but let's see if I've got this straight. Group heals aggro for MORE than single target lifetaps?

Actually it probably doesn't. The per point Hate/Heal ratio is probably exactly the same whether it's a group or single target heal, I think. Now that you mention it I wish that the development team had chosen a player out of the community who would have the responsibility of testing this sort of thing during beta. Oh well.



I think Jeters is assuming the reader has a certain idea of what they are doing when they play these games. You should probably do a bit more reading to get the fundamentals down, I'd start now as you dont appear to be... a very quick learner. For you to ask what difference the tank makes on an agro question is pretty indicative of your ignorance.

[Kovacs]

I think Jeters is assuming the reader has a certain idea of what they are doing when they play these games. You should probably do a bit more reading to get the fundamentals down, I'd start now as you dont appear to be... a very quick learner. For you to ask what difference the tank makes on an agro question is pretty indicative of your ignorance.

Really??

The question was: I am trying to find out how big of an impact healing does in terms of aggro.


Ok, we'll assume for the sake of argument that the previous poster was correct and that 1 pt. of heal = 1 pt of hate. The healer heals for 500 points of damage and thus gathers 500 points of hate, now even assuming that you have THE BEST TANK IN THE WORLD... how does that change the impact of healing in terms of aggro.?

Take your time that's gonna be a tough one.

Why even bother posting something like,well more heals = more aggro. Really??? Unless of course you assume the OP doens't actaully know anything about aggro. generation.

Now the interesting part of the post (interestng only by mistake I suspect), do group heals actually transfer a greater (or lesser) ratio of heal point per aggro than single target heals? I'm not sure (I doubt it). I wish somebody would've actually tested it to see though.

Now if the question was, "How much hate can an avg. tank generate per tick and how will that effect my healing rate" then sure the tank will matter.

It wasn't and it doesn't.

[Dashel]

Really??

Really.

The question was:

I am trying to find out how big of an impact healing does in terms of aggro.



Ok, we'll assume for the sake of argument that the previous poster was correct and that 1 pt. of heal = 1 pt of hate. The healer heals for 500 points of damage and thus gathers 500 points of hate, now even assuming that you have THE BEST TANK IN THE WORLD... how does that change the impact of healing in terms of aggro.?

Because the impact depends on what the tank can generate. If a tank taunts for 800 million points of hate, you could heal at that rate forever, now couldnt you.

Any discussion of agro is dependant on what a tank can do as a baseline.

[Kovacs]

Really.



Because the impact depends on what the tank can generate. If a tank taunts for 800 million points of hate, you could heal at that rate forever, now couldnt you.

Any discussion of agro is dependant on what a tank can do as a baseline.

Well ok. Of all the questions to answer in that post you pick the rhetorical one.. hehehe ok.

if the question was, "How much hate can an avg. tank generate per tick and how will that effect my healing rate" then sure the tank will matter.

It wasn't and it doesn't.

I'm running out of words here but the real question is, and I'm going to state this as simply as possible.

How much aggro. does a one point heal generate?


The questions that weren't asked:

Is there any way a tank can effect the amount of aggro a 500 point heal generates (even if she's really good)?
If I generate (110%) more aggro. than the tank (ie: the person currently holding aggro) what happens?
Is is hard to pull aggro from a crappy tank?
Is it harder to pull aggro from a good tank?
Do big heals generate more aggro than little heals?


Now the questions that won't get answered:

A. Are single target heals/group heals/wards/damage shields/life taps treated equally in terms of their impact (ie: in terms of hate {aggro} generated) per point?

2. Why aren't there a bunch of posts screaming, "Go look at the boards!! we answered this question a gazillion times already?"

Instead we get one. And I'm pretty sure he's wrong. Although again, I wouldn't hate it if there were somebody who was actually interested enough to go out and run a test and showed me I was wrong. I don't know maybe in a perfect world this test could've happened during the 'testing phase' of production or something? Vanguard had one of those didn't they? Eh.. you're right, what the hell do I know. ;)

So ok.

[Mongo]

Well ok. Of all the questions to answer in that post you pick the rhetorical one.. hehehe ok.



I'm running out of words here but the real question is, and I'm going to state this as simply as possible.

How much aggro. does a one point heal generate?


The questions that weren't asked:

Is there any way a tank can effect the amount of aggro a 500 point heal generates (even if she's really good)?
If I generate (110%) more aggro. than the tank (ie: the person currently holding aggro) what happens?
Is is hard to pull aggro from a crappy tank?
Is it harder to pull aggro from a good tank?
Do big heals generate more aggro than little heals?


Now the questions that won't get answered:

A. Are single target heals/group heals/wards/damage shields/life taps treated equally in terms of their impact (ie: in terms of hate {aggro} generated) per point?

2. Why aren't there a bunch of posts screaming, "Go look at the boards!! we answered this question a gazillion times already?"

Instead we get one. And I'm pretty sure he's wrong. Although again, I wouldn't hate it if there were somebody who was actually interested enough to go out and run a test and showed me I was wrong. I don't know maybe in a perfect world this test could've happened during the 'testing phase' of production or something? Vanguard had one of those didn't they? Eh.. you're right, what the hell do I know. ;)

So ok.

Hmmm. Well aside from the fact that you are being hostile towards people who were trying to help you answer your questions...

I do not know that it has ever been stated by a developer or otherwise exactly what the aggro ratio is, weather it is 1:1 or some other variation. This is something that is pretty subjective and hard to test in game. I would imagine there are also variables that we can not see, such as additional taunt in abilities etc.

The simple fact is that in Vanguard healers generaly wont pull aggro off of a tank unless that mob has only been hit once or twice and left alone, or not at all. And group healing shoudlnt have a different aggro ratio, but the simple fact is that spamming group heals vs. single target heals will get you aggro much quicker, since you tend to heal a lot more damage when using these. ie. healing for 1500 on 1 person or healing for 600 on 6 people. And the group heal tends to be a faster cast.

The only times I really get bad aggro is actually when we get an add during a fight and they are mezzed and not touched, they will build up aggro against me because of all the healing which can make it difficult to pull it off once the mez is broken.

[Tashan]

I do not know that it has ever been stated by a developer or otherwise exactly what the aggro ratio is, weather it is 1:1 or some other variation. This is something that is pretty subjective and hard to test in game. I would imagine there are also variables that we can not see, such as additional taunt in abilities etc.

Actually in the warrior forums about a week ago there was a discussion about the scaling damage of casters making keeping aggro harder. The class lead (Raisa I think) or one of the devs stated that aggro was computed as:

1 Dmg : 1 HP healed : 1 Hate

As there was some gripes about with sorcerers damage scaling up per level, keeping aggro was difficult as the bonus hate added via their moves doesn't scale as the warrior levels (i.e. the move that gives them +100 hate at 10th level will still only give them +100 hate at lvl 50).

Edit: I might have mis-stated the exact number on HP healed, but I do believe that it was 1 HP healed, and I do remember clearly that it was deffinatly 1 dmg = 1 hate.

[Jeters]

wha? what did I do =/

as I am not a developer I can only give my opinion, not hard facts/numbers.

[uaprsf]

wha? what did I do =/

as I am not a developer I can only give my opinion, not hard facts/numbers.

OK. I assumed a lead served as a liaison between the class community and the developers. If this assumption is incorrect could you please confirm that? And if correct could you please get us some hard/facts numbers and/or a response from a dev on this matter.

There are a whole slew of questions that can be asked regarding the threat a given class generates. I for one understand game concepts but some light on the actual algorithms used to populate the hate table would be nice.

Here is just one.

Three mobs in pull, Main tank has engaged a single mob, the rest are beating on him, yet he hasn't touched the others.

1. Does my heal generate threat on the other mobs he hasn't touched and if so is it the same threat entry in their hate tables as the one he is beating on.

[Vidrak]

1. Does my heal generate threat on the other mobs he hasn't touched and if so is it the same threat entry in their hate tables as the one he is beating on.

Sometimes I have a really hard time figuring on what is going on inside some of your guys' heads. Do the numbers really freaking matter? You can't even figure this stuff out and you think you are going to be calculating and determining hate based on numerical values, in the heat of battle, to see if you will pull agro or not? Please.

Play the game, it isn't hard to figure out. If you pull 5 mobs, and the tank engages one, and you start healing him. What do you think is going to happen? This is BASIC, BASIC stuff here guys. And it doesn't freakin matter if its 1:1:1. Lol, Heals create hate, and that is that. So, the question is not only completely dumb, but it also wouldn't matter if they even gave you a formula, because you couldn't use it if you wanted to.

Demanding stuff like this to be served up on a silver platter is just rediculous. Learn how to play your class, adapt to the situation and your tank and play the game. It doesn't matter what the hard number is, every situation is going to be different. /gouges eyes out

[uaprsf]

wha? what did I do =/

as I am not a developer I can only give my opinion, not hard facts/numbers.

Sometimes I have a really hard time figuring on what is going on inside some of your guys' heads. Do the numbers really freaking matter? You can't even figure this stuff out and you think you are going to be calculating and determining hate based on numerical values, in the heat of battle, to see if you will pull agro or not? Please.

Play the game, it isn't hard to figure out. If you pull 5 mobs, and the tank engages one, and you start healing him. What do you think is going to happen? This is BASIC, BASIC stuff here guys. And it doesn't freakin matter if its 1:1:1. Lol, Heals create hate, and that is that. So, the question is not only completely dumb, but it also wouldn't matter if they even gave you a formula, because you couldn't use it if you wanted to.

Demanding stuff like this to be served up on a silver platter is just rediculous. Learn how to play your class, adapt to the situation and your tank and play the game. It doesn't matter what the hard number is, every situation is going to be different. /gouges eyes out

It not an approach to the game YOU employ friend. Guess what? That numb feeling in the seat of your pants and the top of your head is not the axis of the planet. These algorithms are how the game mechanics are implemented. If you could care less about them then great. A great many ppl I know do. Have fun doing things your way and I will mine.

[Vidrak]

It not an approach to the game YOU employ friend. Guess what? That numb feeling in the seat of your pants and the top of your head is not the axis of the planet. These algorithms are how the game mechanics are implemented. If you could care less about them then great. A great many ppl I know do. Have fun doing things your way and I will mine.
Have fun in your dream world that the Dev's are just going to give you this formula straight up. You won't ever know, unless you work there. I am sure it is a little more complicated than 1:1:1, seeing that distance from the mob matters, the number of mobs, the level of the people in your group, the level of the mobs. All this stuff matters with the damage people do, hits misses ... etc.

This info would be next to useless even if you did know the formula. And there is no way in hell it is going to save you in any group. What are you going to do, sit there and add all the hate modifiers the tank skills use and then calculate exactly when to heal? Lol, seriously, just play the game and get a feel for it.

Though you are probably one of the guys like in the Leeroy Jenkins video, calculating their % chance of survival. Wow, that information was REALLY useful wasn't it. All this number does is create the illusion you know what your doing and how to play, it has no bearing on how well you do.

And as others have said, even if it is 1:1:1, it doesn't work in practice. So either that isn't it, or "it depends". Lol, have fun crunching your numbers though.

[kraznor]

How about this?

You heal when it's needed.

You do dmg when it's needed.

If you get agro? You went too far, or your tank didn't do his/her job, so rethink doing that next time.

Just play the game ffs.

[cprender]

1. Does my heal generate threat on the other mobs he hasn't touched and if so is it the same threat entry in their hate tables as the one he is beating on.

Simple answer is yes, you definately make the hate list on Mob's B & C. If the typical hate model is:

1. Initial puller/tank gets aggro on all 3 mobs and starts beating/taunting one, then a heal on the tank will definately get you on the top of the list for the other two mobs. This I have seen empirically.

2. BMG Numb which drops 450 hate on a single target will usually get 1 mob off of me, but the other still likes me.

3. As I said before, despite casting a 700 hp heal, a -450 hate numb still took all the aggro away, so I don't think that 1hp healed = 1 hate. Although I guess it is possible that initial pull aggro could make up the difference.

[Irrukathus]

It not an approach to the game YOU employ friend. Guess what? That numb feeling in the seat of your pants and the top of your head is not the axis of the planet. These algorithms are how the game mechanics are implemented. If you could care less about them then great. A great many ppl I know do. Have fun doing things your way and I will mine.


there seems to be alot of "debating" but i think what is missing for me is what do you actually would use the formula for? it has already been stated that some people have no use for it (and i see no applicable use myself). but if you could explain what it is that you would be able to accomplish with, and possibly share an aspect of the I currently do not see/understand.

I know this is not answering your question, obviously im asking one myself. But yours brings an interesting new perspective

[Multiplex]

Sometimes I have a really hard time figuring on what is going on inside some of your guys' heads. Do the numbers really freaking matter? You can't even figure this stuff out and you think you are going to be calculating and determining hate based on numerical values, in the heat of battle, to see if you will pull agro or not? Please.

In short: yes, the numbers really freakin matter.

The game is based off calculations involving all these numbers that matter and so knowing them is important. It's important for all three parties involved--not just one of them--(tank, dps, healer) to know how all the classes interact as a group, not just how their own interacts.

If you've participated in forums for other MMORPGs (which will remain unnamed) you know that within the first month there will be people on here who have conducted (amazingly) exhaustive tests with parsing tools and will have broken the entire game down into a science of numbers.

When the number freaks (which I'm probably one of) roll new toons the numbers will affect their class choice, it'll affect their class strategies/tactics, and it'll effect most of all the character equipment templates for raiding at high level.

The numbers do matter, to some people at least. Why the hate towards people who like to get deep into the mechanics of the game?

[Demonix]

Okay, really quick since this was brought up earlier and nobody ever clarified (from what I saw), the guy that said group heals aggro more was both correct and incorrect. They aggro at the same rate that other heals do and assuming the 1:1 ratio is correct (really doesn't matter for this example), say you did a 1k group heal in a full group, that's 6k hate added at once (1k heal to each of 6 people). So yes, you will aggro a lot more than a single heal, but at the exact same ratio that you would have if you did 6k in single heals. This makes group heals much more risky and a last resort because 6k hate over time is much easier to manage than an instant 6k when you might just be 1k within the threshold. I hope that all made sense.

[hawnz]

In short: yes, the numbers really freakin matter.

The game is based off calculations involving all these numbers that matter and so knowing them is important. It's important for all three parties involved--not just one of them--(tank, dps, healer) to know how all the classes interact as a group, not just how their own interacts.

If you've participated in forums for other MMORPGs (which will remain unnamed) you know that within the first month there will be people on here who have conducted (amazingly) exhaustive tests with parsing tools and will have broken the entire game down into a science of numbers.

When the number freaks (which I'm probably one of) roll new toons the numbers will affect their class choice, it'll affect their class strategies/tactics, and it'll effect most of all the character equipment templates for raiding at high level.

The numbers do matter, to some people at least. Why the hate towards people who like to get deep into the mechanics of the game?


hate towards the number crunchers? hmm, go back an reread this thread. it was the number crunchers who are acting like rebellious preteens, not the other way around. if numbers are so important to you, go out and run them yourselves, don't expect everyone else to do all the legwork for you and then whine like a child when they don't because they would rather learn the game through experience and feel than spending countless hours trying to break down the inner workings of a game.

i've been playing games for a long time, and a good player is one who can adapt to any situation on the fly, and can see how things work without needing to break down any numbers. devs in games rarely give out the full details of game mechanics. sure, people parse and calculate and theorize, but that's their perogative. to come in and start saying your own class lead should be replaced just because he doesn't play the game in the same automatronic way you choose to is rediculous. while you're running numbers and rerolling characters and min maxing like a robot, he's out actually playing the character and learning things first hand and paving the easy road for you. show a little respect.

[Corven]

You're going to have to get the numbers you're looking for in the same way we did it in the old days; log parsing and number crunching from observation.

The devs who made this game are NOT going to give out the formulas you're looking for, and it can be convincingly argued that they shouldn't.

If having precise aggro formulas is important to you, you're going to have to work for it.

Sorry!

[DCpunk]

Even though you're being a total jerk, I'll help answer some of this stuff for you.

How much aggro. does a one point heal generate?

We're not 100% certain, but it is very likely that it is one point of healing generates 1 point of hate.


The questions that weren't asked:

So why didn't you ask them if this is what you wanted to know?

Is there any way a tank can effect the amount of aggro a 500 point heal generates (even if she's really good)?

No. But, as stated earlier, if the tank isn't doing his/her job of building up hate, then the amount of healing the healer does is far more siginificant than if the tank were actually managing hate.

If I generate (110%) more aggro. than the tank (ie: the person currently holding aggro) what happens?
Is is hard to pull aggro from a crappy tank?

It's not hard, but it's not exactly easy either. I mostly duo with a bard who keeps aggro strictly through damage (and she WAY outdamages my shaman) and I frequently pull aggro from her. Now, you might think that this is due to heals, but it's really due to the combination of me debuffing, DoTing, meleeing, and healing all at the same time. This generates a ton of hate. I find that if I just stand back and cast heals and yawn, the fights last longer, I end up with less mana at the end of the fight, but I almost NEVER draw aggro.

Is it harder to pull aggro from a good tank?

significantly. yes.

Do big heals generate more aggro than little heals?

Yes and no. Do big heals generate more pure aggro? Yes. The more hit points you heal, the more hate you generate. However, the ratio is suspected to still be the same: 1 point of healing = 1 point of hate.


Now the questions that won't get answered:

A. Are single target heals/group heals/wards/damage shields/life taps treated equally in terms of their impact (ie: in terms of hate {aggro} generated) per point?

I haven't had an opportunity to test this yet. I'll let you know when I do.

2. Why aren't there a bunch of posts screaming, "Go look at the boards!! we answered this question a gazillion times already?"

Should there be? Does anyone really care? Play the game and feel it out. Isn't that part of the fun?

Instead we get one. And I'm pretty sure he's wrong. Although again, I wouldn't hate it if there were somebody who was actually interested enough to go out and run a test and showed me I was wrong. I don't know maybe in a perfect world this test could've happened during the 'testing phase' of production or something? Vanguard had one of those didn't they? Eh.. you're right, what the hell do I know. ;)

See above.

[DCpunk]

hate towards the number crunchers? hmm, go back an reread this thread. it was the number crunchers who are acting like rebellious preteens, not the other way around. if numbers are so important to you, go out and run them yourselves, don't expect everyone else to do all the legwork for you and then whine like a child when they don't because they would rather learn the game through experience and feel than spending countless hours trying to break down the inner workings of a game.

i've been playing games for a long time, and a good player is one who can adapt to any situation on the fly, and can see how things work without needing to break down any numbers. devs in games rarely give out the full details of game mechanics. sure, people parse and calculate and theorize, but that's their perogative. to come in and start saying your own class lead should be replaced just because he doesn't play the game in the same automatronic way you choose to is rediculous. while you're running numbers and rerolling characters and min maxing like a robot, he's out actually playing the character and learning things first hand and paving the easy road for you. show a little respect.


Hawnz, we've missed you! HOORAY!

[Piety]

To play a cleric is to learn to work with numbers.
It may be instinctive, it may be math, but it comes down to numbers.
Is your tank a plate, chain, or leather wearer?
This will impact the type of damage, slow and steady or spike. The type of damage will in turn impact the types and size of heals.

The number of hit points the toon has will also impact what you do and when you do it. You are not going to use a long casting high amount of point heal when your cloth caster's health is going down so fast the health bar is smoking. On the other hand it's rather pointless to use lost of little fast casting heals on your plate wearing tank is losing health at a slow and predictable rate.

In regards to aggro, it's not a 1 for 1 system.
That being said, it can help to think of your heals as damage. As you level and acquire Heal over Times, small heals and large heals, think of them as Nukes and Dots.

It's unwise for the cloth caster to set off a large nuke on the mob on incoming or before the Tank manages to gain aggro, likewise it is generally unwise for the healer to put a large heal on the main tank on incoming.

I have found that if the tank takes to much damage during the initial few moments (i.e. without a heal at the begining of the fight the tank beomes a greasy smear) setting a HoT on him BEFORE the mob is pulled or aggro'd will result in less aggro on me as a healer.

In my experience I gain less aggro, casting a heal as the mob comes into camp, or as the mob is being pulled I get attacked by mob.

Also remember that as everyone is alive at the end of the fight and the mob is dead then the fight was a success. If someone is alive to bring the cleric back so they can rez everyone else, then it's not a complete failure.

The tank does not need to be at 100% health at all times. A good Cleric can keep a tank balanced between 50-75% health, a great cleric can keep the tank balanced at under 50% using this lower amount of health to conserve mana and maintain aggro where it belongs.

[Multiplex]

hate towards the number crunchers? hmm, go back an reread this thread.

Hello? I was replying to the person I quoted who was in fact hating on the number crunchers when he said this:

Sometimes I have a really hard time figuring on what is going on inside some of your guys' heads. Do the numbers really freaking matter? You can't even figure this stuff out and you think you are going to be calculating and determining hate based on numerical values, in the heat of battle, to see if you will pull agro or not? Please.

Which prompted my response to him. I don't think i'll need to go back through and read the thread again but I think you might need to.

it was the number crunchers who are acting like rebellious preteens, not the other way around.

I think not. I might not agree with the OPs tactics here but that doesn't matter because he obviously doesn't represent number crunchers as a whole... I mean surely you can process that little bit of info and reason it out right?

if numbers are so important to you, go out and run them yourselves, don't expect everyone else to do all the legwork for you and then whine like a child when they don't because they would rather learn the game through experience and feel than spending countless hours trying to break down the inner workings of a game

I'm sure someone WILL run the numbers and post the results here on other forums soon enough. Like I said, usually within the first 30 days or so stuff like that tends to start showing up. Also,

1. I wasn't whining about anything.
2. Why bitch more about people spending time examing the numbers again? You're whining more than the OP ever did.

i've been playing games for a long time, and a good player is one who can adapt to any situation on the fly, and can see how things work without needing to break down any numbers.

A nice big fat blanket statement with nothing to substantiate it. Beautitful.

devs in games rarely give out the full details of game mechanics. sure, people parse and calculate and theorize, but that's their perogative. to come in and start saying your own class lead should be replaced just because he doesn't play the game in the same automatronic way you choose to is rediculous.

The class lead should be the connection between the player base for the class and the devs. Assuming he should know the information was wrong, but expecting him to at least try to get the iinfo by... I don't know... just asking isn't setting the bar too high.

while you're running numbers and rerolling characters and min maxing like a robot, he's out actually playing the character and learning things first hand and paving the easy road for you. show a little respect.

Mmmm, robots. Saying stuff like that and making more blanket statements and assuming that numbers somehow make things easier just shows me how little you know or care to understand about the game.

Have a nice day.

[hawnz]

Hello? I was replying to the person I quoted who was in fact hating on the number crunchers when he said this

follow the path of the thread backwards, it's not that hard to do. this whole thread became hostile due to the "number crunchers" bringing it here. the responses after that by those who play the game by feel and experience can only be blamed for being aggressive due to the original blatently disrespectful/self-serving attitude and demanding demeanor by the aforementioned "number crunchers". apparently you have issue with someone being defensive AFTER they are attacked by people who have no concept of gaming outside of numbers. i can teach you every number imaginable about the game of basketball, but in the end, it's not going to make you a good player, just someone who knows a lot about the numbers of basketball.



Which prompted my response to him. I don't think i'll need to go back through and read the thread again but I think you might need to.

maybe i should have been clear and explained how threads have multiple page numbers and you need to click the "1" and start there, and then click the "2" once you're done reading "1"? i think you definitely do need to go and read the thread period, not re-read, as obviously a person with basic intelligence would understand the progress of this thread was spawned by the hatred and contempt of the "number crunchers", and any so called "hate on the number crunchers" is certainly deserved and justified based on the garbage that those said "number crunchers" were saying/demanding.



I think not. I might not agree with the OPs tactics here but that doesn't matter because he obviously doesn't represent number crunchers as a whole... I mean surely you can process that little bit of info and reason it out right?

way to talk in circles. "uh ya, i agree the OP wasn't right, but i'm gonna go ahead and still disregard that fact and continue to blame others instead, who were only responding defensively due to the OP's tactics, which as i mentioned, i am going to continue to completely disregard."

you might want to be careful throwing around concepts like "reason" when it's certainly something you don't quite have a grasp or basic understanding of.



I'm sure someone WILL run the numbers and post the results here on other forums soon enough. Like I said, usually within the first 30 days or so stuff like that tends to start showing up.

i'm sure they will too, and that's fine. if you want to play by the numbers, that's your choice. most people don't though, so to demand that the class lead provide this information on the spot (OR ELSE!) is clearly dillusional behavior... especially since the class lead doesn't and probably never will have access to those numbers. he's not a dev, he's just a communicative device for the occassional issue between dev and player, player and dev. he has very little insider information, because what info he is given is almost always given to him in order for it to be shared with us. the devs aren't like "hey jeters, if you cast X, Z, X and then Y to finish it off, you'll win just about any encounter! shhh!"


1. I wasn't whining about anything.

my use of "you" actually referred to the OP and others like him who posted in this thread (the "number crunchers" we keep referring to in this thread) who came and started bashing a class leader who they don't know the first thing about, demanding things that he obviously doesn't and probably won't ever have, and then crying about it when people try to explain this situation to them.


2. Why bitch more about people spending time examing the numbers again? You're whining more than the OP ever did.

i have no problem with people who crunch numbers. i do have a problem when someone (no one would be more appropriate in this case) comes into a community many of us have been part of for almost 4 years now and starts demanding things and acting like they have a clue as to what they're talking about, when some of us have been playing the game for 1-2 years now. respect needs to be given to be received. you're not going to get anywhere if you want info, and the way you go about it is to insult, disrespect, accuse, or generally make an ass of yourself. the only response you will garner is the so called "hate" that you still can't seem to understand the cause of.





A nice big fat blanket statement with nothing to substantiate it. Beautitful.

hmm, i've been playing MMORPGS since EQ in 99. been in quite a few top guilds across different servers in different eras of the game. beta tested more games from beta 1 than most people have played MMORPGs altogether. i'm also one of the most established vanguard followers, and have been involved in VG for almost 4 years now, as well as beta it for a year and a half. if you'd like more credentials, just ask around on the different forums.



The class lead should be the connection between the player base for the class and the devs. Assuming he should know the information was wrong, but expecting him to at least try to get the iinfo by... I don't know... just asking isn't setting the bar too high.

it was hardly asking/expecting. again, go read the thread so you can actually see what was said instead of just making weak inferences and trying to soften the dialogue of said "number crunchers" as just a couple folks who were innocently trying to get a little information. then, send sigil an email and tell them that they should be more vocal and provide their class leads with core information, coding, network codes, cheat modes, raid loot stats, boss mob strategies, the best min/max combos, and their relationship statuses. or don't...





Mmmm, robots. Saying stuff like that and making more blanket statements and assuming that numbers somehow make things easier just shows me how little you know or care to understand about the game.

yes, robots. followers of binary codes and numbers. numb. unable to react in an honest human response. following sequences, protocols, and complex mathematic formulations. if you can't see the relation, then you probably are a robot, as sarcasm, humor, and analogies aren't something a robot has much grasp of.



hope we're clearer now

[Multiplex]

hope we're clearer now

Not really, and the reason why is that you're just picking parts of the thread out of context and talking in circles yourself. The one (and only one) person that I responded to in the thread originally was preaching hate about number crunchers and people who like to get technically/mechanically involved in the games they play. I could care less about the OP or the reasons for why this person that I responded to was acting like they were, the response I made was based on text that they wrote.

You're not worth the effort. You pull vague examples out of the thread and then try your best to discredit the person you are replying to instead of actually offering a valid counter argument. That's the tactic of a forum troll and you would fit in good on the VNBoards or other immature online communities.

On a parting note, your credentials are very impressive. Maybe you should use some of that massive pool of experience to actually back your arguments up with reasons and/or explanations so that your behavior reflects your gaming resume.

Cheers.

[Demonix]

Lock...thread...now.

[hawnz]

Not really, and the reason why is that you're just picking parts of the thread out of context and talking in circles yourself. The one (and only one) person that I responded to in the thread originally was preaching hate about number crunchers and people who like to get technically/mechanically involved in the games they play. I could care less about the OP or the reasons for why this person that I responded to was acting like they were, the response I made was based on text that they wrote.

You're not worth the effort. You pull vague examples out of the thread and then try your best to discredit the person you are replying to instead of actually offering a valid counter argument. That's the tactic of a forum troll and you would fit in good on the VNBoards or other immature online communities.

On a parting note, your credentials are very impressive. Maybe you should use some of that massive pool of experience to actually back your arguments up with reasons and/or explanations so that your behavior reflects your gaming resume.

Cheers.

lol. great counter-arguement. you could have just said "nuh uh, you are!" and achieved the same level of response. clearly you have no answers and can only serve up the typical "you're not worth the effort", and refering to me as a troll or immature VNboarder after i took the time to deliberately respond to each section of your retort. i didn't swear at you, tell you to go F yourself, tell you to go play wow, make fun of your penis size, refer to you as a nOOb, or any of the other things you would have surely experienced on a "less mature" message board.

i went through the trouble of giving you in-detail information on myself, as well as the community of VG beta testers that the "number crunchers" in this thread are insulting and labeling as know-nothings. i discussed my personal reasoning behind why i value experience and adaptability over number knowledge. i explained the situation that the Class Leaders are all in and what their purpose and access to insider information is, and went into detail as to why my analogy of number crunchers to robots is accurate in the context i was using it.

but ya, i'm clearly being vague and there's nothing there worth responding to and all deliberate flame bait from a forum troll who is definitely NOT one of the founding members of the vanguard community (http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/member.php?u=312)

[Multiplex]

lol. great counter-arguement. you could have just said "nuh uh, you are!" and achieved the same level of response.

You're right I could have. I think that makes it very clear that I'm not wiling to put any more real effort into a pointless argument in which neither of us will ever change our minds about anything.

but ya, i'm clearly being vague and there's nothing there worth responding to and all deliberate flame bait from a forum troll who is definitely NOT one of the founding members of the vanguard community (http://forums.vanguardsoh.com/member.php?u=312)

Well hey, I call them like I see them. It's how you're acting and just remember that you don't have to tell someone to "F" off in order to discredit the author to avoid debating the actual topic. As for you being a founding member--you being around longer doesn't automatically validate all of your arguments like you seem to think it does. There are many people around here, myself included, who have just as must MMORPG experience as you do.

Feel free to have the last word.