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Socratic
01-26-2007, 11:05 PM
The dip quests take you to a parley that you have a 1 in 42 chance to beat with the perfect deck setup. Winning is dependent upon random refresh timers, so basically total luck.

This thread sums it up nicely. (http://www.vgtact.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=632)

I'm posting this here in the hopes that someone of importance or influence might actually read it.

-Socratic
Targonor

jdvarmit
01-26-2007, 11:52 PM
I am trying to give Diplomacy a chance but it doesn't look good. I am spending way too much time trying to figure this out. After the first two rounds I am out of luck for 1-2 rounds but in the meantime old Melenes has cards playing out her butt and there is no coming back from a deficit. I am always 1-2 steps behind because of the 3rd-4th rounds. I will try some more but it sure is frustrating. I would rather fight over spawns with gold farmers than this. Hopefully the light will go off and it will all become clear tonight. :(

Just a side note: This is only the second quest for this, why, why , why?

And for those that "get it" and had no difficulty, I'm glad you got past this but it still seems odd to me.

jdvarmit
01-27-2007, 12:16 AM
Ok, went back into the game and started Diplomacy, lost a couple more times, took a couple aspirins and thought about it. I was under the impression that the green cards were the only cards that you could open with...but I had a zero cost card. So I tried that and it changed the whole direction of the parley. Either it wasn't explained or prolly just over-whelmed with the whole Diplomacy process and didn't understand what was being said. :rolleyes:

Socratic
01-27-2007, 01:05 AM
You will probably run into the parley I'm talking about after an hour or so. There are multiple threads at vgtact about the issue.

Lyliani
01-27-2007, 01:36 AM
I'm having problems with a diplo quest in Tursh - im skill 40 now, and there's this one quest named "How to grasp a thistle" or something like that. He has a no cost card that gives him 2 yellow dots, and gives me one yellow dot. Then he changes his yellow dot into red dots, and then into green dots which gives him 5 points. And there is NO WAY i can counter it. I don't have rebuttals yet so i can't starve him, and none of my cards can build up to 5 points because the majority of them are blue cards and the blue line isnt available for that quest. I've been at it for about 2 hours now and i'm so damn frustrated :(

the closest i've come was 4 behind. the worse was 0 to 14 yuck.

Estar87
01-27-2007, 03:42 PM
Sometimes certain parleys require a really strange stategy that you might not think of. For instance in Khal for qaltharis there is a guy name said who has no flattery (yellow) for his parley.

Since flattery is the main form of qalthari the only cards that are usauble are snippet of wisdom, the 3 3pointer of reason, demand, and inspire, and a 1 point card. Many people have trouble with this paticular parley however its is winnable with a little bit of luck

Said has 3 pointers of all 3 colors, a carfd to gain one red point and one 1 point card that gives green.

The strategy to play the 1 pointer (or snippet of wisdom if the 1 point gives red) and than play the reason 3 pointer than listen for the rest of the parley only playing the reason 3 pointer if it is up is a diffrent strategy that most parleys require.

Diplomacy is not only about your cards but your oppenents cards as well sometimes it is better to do nothing than to play cards.

on decks that use massive amount of 2 pointers (these are some of the strongest decks tho not the strongest). THe best way is to load up with all the 3 pointers and cards such as greasing the wheels (gives you 2 yellow and 1 green)

For instance for the wood elf parley (not sure the exact line) you probaly have the gloves that give +1 green.

First turn play greasing the wheels so u have 2 yellow and 2 green (hes at 2). next turn play either the 3 pointer green or yellow (hes at 1). turn after that play the other one (hes at 0 after playing his card). next play snippet of wisdom(0 again). by this time either use your 4 point card or grease the wheels again. rinse and repeat. as long as you dont get super unlucky and get max respawn times on your two 3 pointers you will win

so cards you should have - Snippet of wisdom, 3 point yellow, 4 point yellow, 3 point green, greasing the wheels.

Oisin
01-27-2007, 03:46 PM
Did you not read Lyliani's post? He has cards to setup a 6 point card. Those 6 point cards also give him cards. He isn't beatable right now.

Estar87
01-27-2007, 04:03 PM
the thistle quest according to 1/27 patch notes was changed, however i didnt understand her post becasue it wasnt clear what cards were being used or why it was impossible

from the sounds of it he has trun 1 make yellow dots, turn 2 make red dots, turn 3 make green dots, turn 4 play a 5 point card. which would sound very beatable even w/o rebuttals. first turn id play snippet, second turn play the card that gives 1 red 2 blue, play the red 3 dot card on turn 3. and i just made my 5 points.

Socratic
01-27-2007, 04:35 PM
When something is unreasonably difficult, arguably impossible, there is always someone willing to tell you that you are in fact just doing it wrong, eventhough they've never actually tried the encounter themself. Nevertheless it is being patched because believe it or not the parley's were beefed up beyond reason. Go to vgtact and read the threads. If you didn't get to those parley's yesterday you have no clue what is and isn't beatable.
-Socratic

Musti
01-27-2007, 04:52 PM
I'm having problems with a diplo quest in Tursh - im skill 40 now, and there's this one quest named "How to grasp a thistle" or something like that. He has a no cost card that gives him 2 yellow dots, and gives me one yellow dot. Then he changes his yellow dot into red dots, and then into green dots which gives him 5 points. And there is NO WAY i can counter it. I don't have rebuttals yet so i can't starve him, and none of my cards can build up to 5 points because the majority of them are blue cards and the blue line isnt available for that quest. I've been at it for about 2 hours now and i'm so damn frustrated :(

the closest i've come was 4 behind. the worse was 0 to 14 yuck.

I had the same problem with this guy took me an hour before i finally beat him just watch his card patterns really he needs yellow dots to convert those into red ones but he has no cards that will give him any yellow dots atleast from what i remember but i beat him last night just watch his card play

eqfan592
01-27-2007, 04:56 PM
the thistle quest according to 1/27 patch notes was changed, however i didnt understand her post becasue it wasnt clear what cards were being used or why it was impossible

from the sounds of it he has trun 1 make yellow dots, turn 2 make red dots, turn 3 make green dots, turn 4 play a 5 point card. which would sound very beatable even w/o rebuttals. first turn id play snippet, second turn play the card that gives 1 red 2 blue, play the red 3 dot card on turn 3. and i just made my 5 points.

First of all, you can't use blue in this case, the cards he is playing give almost nothing in the way of fuel to you, and if you are a blue-centric dip, then there pretty much is no way to beat him. He doesn't give you dots, you can't make dots for yourself, and you can't stop him from smashing you constantly. All those dot's that he is making are on cards that are moveing the token 1-2 points in his favor.

To say the least, this guy needed to be fixed, and given the fact that the dev's did do something about it, it means a LOT of people had this same problem.

Musti
01-27-2007, 05:10 PM
First of all, you can't use blue in this case, the cards he is playing give almost nothing in the way of fuel to you, and if you are a blue-centric dip, then there pretty much is no way to beat him. He doesn't give you dots, you can't make dots for yourself, and you can't stop him from smashing you constantly. All those dot's that he is making are on cards that are moveing the token 1-2 points in his favor.

To say the least, this guy needed to be fixed, and given the fact that the dev's did do something about it, it means a LOT of people had this same problem.

yea i do agree he needed to be fixed but he wasnt unbeatable in his current state if you watched what he needed to play his cards and then delayed his stragety on your side you would win i beat him like 0-12 or something last night before the fix so it wasnt impossible just really challenging

eqfan592
01-27-2007, 05:16 PM
yea i do agree he needed to be fixed but he wasnt unbeatable in his current state if you watched what he needed to play his cards and then delayed his stragety on your side you would win i beat him like 0-12 or something last night before the fix so it wasnt impossible just really challenging

But not all players have the same deck to play with. My race strength is inspire, and so is my class strength, and of course you can't use inspire in the parley with this guy, and because he gives almost no fuel, and the cards he plays to give himself fuel also move the piece, it's impossible to nail him unless you have some more options from other colors (or at least it was pre-patch), and unfortunately the other color options that I had simply weren't enough for this guy.

eqfan592
01-27-2007, 05:19 PM
I had the same problem with this guy took me an hour before i finally beat him just watch his card patterns really he needs yellow dots to convert those into red ones but he has no cards that will give him any yellow dots atleast from what i remember but i beat him last night just watch his card play

I believe that his first card gives him 2 yellows.

Musti
01-27-2007, 05:37 PM
I believe that his first card gives him 2 yellows.

yes but for him to set all that up takes time and it also gives you a yellow which helps you out for him i had sniper anger managment the card that needs 2 yellow for 3 and a card that gave 2 blue and 1 red and a 1 pt card that gave 1 red and 1 green using just those cards i beat him.... to plus 3s a 2 a 1 and a 0 and my card was heavily built around blue type cards as well but i used my other cards to take him down

eqfan592
01-27-2007, 05:42 PM
yes but for him to set all that up takes time and it also gives you a yellow which helps you out for him i had sniper anger managment the card that needs 2 yellow for 3 and a card that gave 2 blue and 1 red and a 1 pt card that gave 1 red and 1 green using just those cards i beat him.... to plus 3s a 2 a 1 and a 0 and my card was heavily built around blue type cards as well but i used my other cards to take him down

I didn't have the card that gave 1 red and 1 green. All I had was the 1 red and 2 blue, and given that he gives almost nothing over time (and by the time he does, he's moved the pointer way on his side already), it was not possible to beat him.

Musti
01-27-2007, 05:50 PM
I didn't have the card that gave 1 red and 1 green. All I had was the 1 red and 2 blue, and given that he gives almost nothing over time (and by the time he does, he's moved the pointer way on his side already), it was not possible to beat him.

ahh i see what you mean then i guess during different quests you took different rewards bc that was a reward card i had

eqfan592
01-27-2007, 06:08 PM
ahh i see what you mean then i guess during different quests you took different rewards bc that was a reward card i had

yeah, that's prob what it was. I only had the option of one reward card while I was going through the motions, did you have any more?

Anyway, I'm glad to see they fixed it for those of us who took that other card :P

Socratic
01-27-2007, 06:20 PM
Winning should be dependent upon having the right five cards in your hand, and countering effectively. If you need to pray for refresh timers or choose a certain card over others as a previous quest reward then Diplomacy is broken. If developers don't see it the same way then we have a long road ahead of us.

Tashan
01-28-2007, 12:38 AM
Here is the reply I posted over there he is actually really really easy to beat when you see the pattern:

Actually he is real easy to beat once you look at his cards. My wife had this same problem last night (EXACT same cards on the Dwarf prince) during the diplo quest last night and I was able to do it in a couple of tries.

First look at what he is giving you. 2 of most of the colors. By this time in the diplo quest line you should have a card for each of those colors that costs 2 to use and gives you 3 influence so you take those three cards (for me it was Enticing Whisper, Loud Criticism, Itemized comparison), now me deing a Dwarf cleric I also added Blunt Evaluation (gives me 2 red, 1 blue and him 1 red no Influence) and Aggresive Statement (cost 2 red and gives 3 influence).

Here is how it plays. You start with 1 free blue at the beginning. Toss out blunt eval for first play, that gives you 2 red and 2 blue which is enough to play either loud criticism or aggressive statement next round. He drops whatever no cost that gives you a green, blue, or yellow. Toss down Aggressive statement, that moves it 1 to your side. And just keep playing whatever card you have points for that is up. It will look like you are losing at the first but keep at it and you win. Won against him everytime doing that and it isn't that hard.

I have yet to find a parlay I can't beat, it may take a few times before I realise what they are doing but every one of them can be beat and usually it is usually a "how come I didn't think of that" realisation when it hits you.

And no Soc, Diplomacy isn't broken it just requires ALOT of thought and a very specific flow of logic. I have yet to find myself in a parlay where I needed to use a card I got as a "quest" reward. Every one of the parlays in the diplo quest line require nothing more than the cards you are taught automatically as you progress.

Edit: And yes now I realise (just now that is) that they patched this... so ignore me :)

Socratic
01-28-2007, 01:53 AM
Tashan I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about because the day the servers opened the prince played 4 different cards of which none gave you 2 points. And blue was actually not used in his parley at all.

Perhaps you are talking about the first dip quest involving the prince, in which case you are right, it's easy, but that wasn't the parley people got stuck on.

But yea, it's fixed now supposedly, though I haven't had a chance to check for myself yet.

Tashan
01-28-2007, 01:59 AM
Tashan I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about because the day the servers opened the prince played 4 different cards of which none gave you 2 points. And blue was actually not used in his parley at all.

Perhaps you are talking about the first dip quest involving the prince, in which case you are right, it's easy, but that wasn't the parley people got stuck on.

But yea, it's fixed now supposedly, though I haven't had a chance to check for myself yet.

No it was the one where he had:

Littany of Logic - 2 Inf - no cost - gives 2 green
Acid Tongue - 2 Inf - No cost - gives 1 green
Brilliant Analogy - 2 Inf - No Cost - Gives 1 Yellow
Keen Remark - 2 Inf - No Cost - Gives 2 Yellow
Shrewd Allegation - 2 Inf - No Cost - Gives 2 Blue

Which was the second parlay and that was the deck he was playing last night because my wife was up til 3 am trying to beat him (unfortunatly as in the original thread about this it was set up as blocking out blue so you couldn't use your blue 3 pointer and was fixed in the patch).

Edit: And yes I write down the deck of every Parlay I go against so I can work out the numbers on how to beat it :) guess I'm anal retentive like that.

Socratic
01-28-2007, 03:02 AM
Litany of Logic and Keen Remark each gave one point when I did it, not two. If they both gave two I doubt people would have had the problems they did. Then again maybe we are all just retards and the solution was easy if we just paid attention?

Tashan
01-28-2007, 03:55 AM
Tashan I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about because the day the servers opened the prince played 4 different cards of which none gave you 2 points. And blue was actually not used in his parley at all.

Perhaps you are talking about the first dip quest involving the prince, in which case you are right, it's easy, but that wasn't the parley people got stuck on.

But yea, it's fixed now supposedly, though I haven't had a chance to check for myself yet.

Litany of Logic and Keen Remark each gave one point when I did it, not two. If they both gave two I doubt people would have had the problems they did. Then again maybe we are all just retards and the solution was easy if we just paid attention?


I didn't say you were retards (I take it your as tired and frustrated as the rest of us waiting for the servers), I just typed out what I wrote down in my notebook under that particular parlay, and the problem was (as noted on the original thread, and as I posted in my first reply) that blue was blocked out which was fixed with the patch last night. Don't know why you're so upset about it Soc.. With the servers being down I cannot verify so I am going off of my notes alone.

And actually here is the list of cards from the post YOU linked to:


Shrewd Allegation: 0 cost, gives me 2 blue, 2 influence
Acid Tongue: 0 cost, gives me 1 green, 2 influence
Brilliant Analogy: 0 cost, gives me 1 yellow, 2 influence
Litany of Logic: 0 cost gives me 2 green, 2 influence
Keen Remark: 0 cost, gives me 2 yellow, 2 influence


Which is identical to the one listed above.... It's the post you were talking about and using to show it as broken, so you might not want to be so harsh.

Socratic
01-28-2007, 04:24 AM
I guess I should have read the thread more closely. Either that or I really am a retard because in the parley that I got stuck on the Prince only played one card which gave me 2 points, but the 2 points were in blue so useless in the parley.

I'm really not trying to be harsh but it's frustrating when you try an encounter countless times and then listen to someone tell you it's "easy," and then proceed to inform you of a strategy you used many times without success.

In fact, I just listened for an entire parley trying to beat it the first day and the prince was at 10 before I got a second bubble in any expression, so you will have to excuse me when I find fault with your advice.

I'm curious actually as to when you beat this encounter, because I believe the fix was in the first patch.

Honestly don't take offense. I am simply defending the fact that the encounter needed to be fixed and was not "easy."

EDIT: Oh, and yea i'm staring at the server select screen and Targonor has been "Locked" for the last 30+ mins. ><

eqfan592
01-28-2007, 09:13 AM
Winning should be dependent upon having the right five cards in your hand, and countering effectively. If you need to pray for refresh timers or choose a certain card over others as a previous quest reward then Diplomacy is broken. If developers don't see it the same way then we have a long road ahead of us.

They did see that and they fixed it. I beat him last night second try. It was fixed in yesterdays patch.

DocSavag
01-28-2007, 12:34 PM
They did see that and they fixed it. I beat him last night second try. It was fixed in yesterdays patch.

The Diplomacy devs have been VERY good about listening to feedback on the challenge level. I like that they have upped the challenge..jsut some of them are too high right now. I have every confidence they will fix it, its frustrating to be stuck at one quest though I agree. My wife and I worked on C'estari Erenai for 2 hours last night before managing to get past her. (And I just got lucky)

Matuse
01-28-2007, 04:29 PM
The Vulmane Spiritragers (well, one of them) uses that exact same deck. The blue 2 influence gives 2 blue (with blue blocked) is just brutal.

Since his entire deck requires no power, use that to your advantage. Pile up on cards that give him tons of power, since they won't actually help him at all.

The deck I beat him with:
Fan The Flames
Blunt Evaluation
Aggressive Statement
Snippet Of Wisdom
Enticing Whisper

The key to beating him is realizing how the flow of the game goes. What you want to do is basically to "hang in" long enough to set up a 3-consecutive blow while he only has a 1 or 2 token lead on you.

Lead with Snippet Of Wisdom. You can't afford to play catch up.
He'll play the Blue Card Of Death.
Play Fan The Flames.
He'll play another 2-card.
Play Aggressive Statement (check replay time, if it is anything but 3 turns, restart the parley)

After this it is a waiting game. Whenever Snippet is playable, play it immediately. Eventually, he's going to feed 2 of each color to you and you should have all 3 colors available to hit him with. This can swing it +5 in your favor, and he can't dig himself out of that before you win.

It's hard. It requires a lot of luck in your replay times being low, and his being high. I did once manage to get him to "listen" because none of his cards were active (but didn't win that game, my strategy was bad)...if you can duplicate THAT bit of luck, he can go down.

DocSavag
01-28-2007, 10:44 PM
The Vulmane Spiritragers (well, one of them) uses that exact same deck. The blue 2 influence gives 2 blue (with blue blocked) is just brutal.

Since his entire deck requires no power, use that to your advantage. Pile up on cards that give him tons of power, since they won't actually help him at all.

The deck I beat him with:
Fan The Flames
Blunt Evaluation
Aggressive Statement
Snippet Of Wisdom
Enticing Whisper

The key to beating him is realizing how the flow of the game goes. What you want to do is basically to "hang in" long enough to set up a 3-consecutive blow while he only has a 1 or 2 token lead on you.

Lead with Snippet Of Wisdom. You can't afford to play catch up.
He'll play the Blue Card Of Death.
Play Fan The Flames.
He'll play another 2-card.
Play Aggressive Statement (check replay time, if it is anything but 3 turns, restart the parley)

After this it is a waiting game. Whenever Snippet is playable, play it immediately. Eventually, he's going to feed 2 of each color to you and you should have all 3 colors available to hit him with. This can swing it +5 in your favor, and he can't dig himself out of that before you win.

It's hard. It requires a lot of luck in your replay times being low, and his being high. I did once manage to get him to "listen" because none of his cards were active (but didn't win that game, my strategy was bad)...if you can duplicate THAT bit of luck, he can go down.

Yea that is the same thing we experienced in the Leth Nurae quests. I don't think its intended though for you to have to get lucky on the replay timers. I think they need to be tweaked a bit in the cards they available to them at that level.

Matuse
01-28-2007, 11:15 PM
Oh, no doubt they are too hard. But if you want to beat them, that's the way that worked for me. It took several HUNDRED attempts.

Socratic
01-28-2007, 11:47 PM
I'm stuck on him too and honestly think it's unreasonable to pray for refresh timers. If this trend continues i'll be ignoring diplomacy all together. Wtf is the point honestly in doing the same pattern over and over watching refresh timers cancelling and beginning again? That's not difficulty that is bad design.

I'm curious what the point is of having Blunt Evaluation as inspire is disabled in this parley.

Also he does have a card that uses points, at least when I play him. He has Flurry of Arguments, which means the second time you play snippet he plays a card worth 4 influence.

At this point the parley is basically over.

Maybe I have to play him 100 times to get him to forget he has Flurry of Arguments?

I use the exact deck as you other than blunt evaluation, because another demand influence card actually gives you a chance to make a play in between aggressive statement IF you get PERFECT refresh timers and he feeds you enough demand to do so.... /sigh this is retarded.

DocSavag
01-29-2007, 10:10 AM
I'm stuck on him too and honestly think it's unreasonable to pray for refresh timers. If this trend continues i'll be ignoring diplomacy all together. Wtf is the point honestly in doing the same pattern over and over watching refresh timers cancelling and beginning again? That's not difficulty that is bad design.

I'm curious what the point is of having Blunt Evaluation as inspire is disabled in this parley.

Also he does have a card that uses points, at least when I play him. He has Flurry of Arguments, which means the second time you play snippet he plays a card worth 4 influence.

At this point the parley is basically over.

Maybe I have to play him 100 times to get him to forget he has Flurry of Arguments?

I use the exact deck as you other than blunt evaluation, because another demand influence card actually gives you a chance to make a play in between aggressive statement IF you get PERFECT refresh timers and he feeds you enough demand to do so.... /sigh this is retarded.


Its just a bug. He's turned up too high. Ausperx has been saying that they will adjust those that are too high. I know its frustrating but its not designed to be that way it just needs to be tweaked. THe price of being first in any endeaver is frustration while things get ironed out.

Exec
01-29-2007, 11:30 AM
Here is the reply I posted over there he is actually really really easy to beat when you see the pattern:

Actually he is real easy to beat once you look at his cards. My wife had this same problem last night (EXACT same cards on the Dwarf prince) during the diplo quest last night and I was able to do it in a couple of tries.

First look at what he is giving you. 2 of most of the colors. By this time in the diplo quest line you should have a card for each of those colors that costs 2 to use and gives you 3 influence so you take those three cards (for me it was Enticing Whisper, Loud Criticism, Itemized comparison), now me deing a Dwarf cleric I also added Blunt Evaluation (gives me 2 red, 1 blue and him 1 red no Influence) and Aggresive Statement (cost 2 red and gives 3 influence).

Here is how it plays. You start with 1 free blue at the beginning. Toss out blunt eval for first play, that gives you 2 red and 2 blue which is enough to play either loud criticism or aggressive statement next round. He drops whatever no cost that gives you a green, blue, or yellow. Toss down Aggressive statement, that moves it 1 to your side. And just keep playing whatever card you have points for that is up. It will look like you are losing at the first but keep at it and you win. Won against him everytime doing that and it isn't that hard.

I have yet to find a parlay I can't beat, it may take a few times before I realise what they are doing but every one of them can be beat and usually it is usually a "how come I didn't think of that" realisation when it hits you.

And no Soc, Diplomacy isn't broken it just requires ALOT of thought and a very specific flow of logic. I have yet to find myself in a parlay where I needed to use a card I got as a "quest" reward. Every one of the parlays in the diplo quest line require nothing more than the cards you are taught automatically as you progress.



I was stuck on Pedric in Tursh in A Noble Cause parley. This post was very insightful and after working on this one parley for over 2 hours last night alone I was able to win in 2 tries. Thanks for the thoughts/comments Tashan - very helpful.

Absalon
01-29-2007, 12:07 PM
I'm stuck on him too and honestly think it's unreasonable to pray for refresh timers. If this trend continues i'll be ignoring diplomacy all together. Wtf is the point honestly in doing the same pattern over and over watching refresh timers cancelling and beginning again? That's not difficulty that is bad design.

I'm curious what the point is of having Blunt Evaluation as inspire is disabled in this parley.

Also he does have a card that uses points, at least when I play him. He has Flurry of Arguments, which means the second time you play snippet he plays a card worth 4 influence.

At this point the parley is basically over.

Maybe I have to play him 100 times to get him to forget he has Flurry of Arguments?

I use the exact deck as you other than blunt evaluation, because another demand influence card actually gives you a chance to make a play in between aggressive statement IF you get PERFECT refresh timers and he feeds you enough demand to do so.... /sigh this is retarded.

I don't know if you were in the beta, or did any diplomacy if you were, but there were a lot of parleys (mostly civic) that were way too easy. Aruspex and his crew have been working hard to get the AI working properly and they only put it in during the final days of beta. It will take some more work to get everything tweaked and we can help facilitate that by /bugging and posting about the problems.

I know it is frustrating, but for now we just have to roll with the punches. They are doing everything they can to get it all tuned. Getting parley difficulty balanced is an incredibly hard task given the mechanics of the system, but it will be worth it in the end.

DocSavag
01-29-2007, 12:12 PM
I don't know if you were in the beta, or did any diplomacy if you were, but there were a lot of parleys (mostly civic) that were way too easy. Aruspex and his crew have been working hard to get the AI working properly and they only put it in during the final days of beta. It will take some more work to get everything tweaked and we can help facilitate that by /bugging and posting about the problems.

I know it is frustrating, but for now we just have to roll with the punches. They are doing everything they can to get it all tuned. Getting parley difficulty balanced is an incredibly hard task given the mechanics of the system, but it will be worth it in the end.

I have to agree that in beta (and even still) there are parleys that are way to easy. There are now some that are way too hard. In between is the sweet spot where its challenging but winnable without being a mathematical savant or just lucky :D.

I found some of the new decks for NPCS fantastic because my heart was in my throat the entire parley keeping up with them. Others were difficult to the point of frustration (those need to be tweaked down) and others were so easy that I was bored with them (need to be tweaked up)

Frankly I was so excited about doing it all live that I've given poor feedabck on the system. I think I will use my alt to run though them again and create some detailed feedback. I would encourage others who are intersted in making the experience all it can be for future players to help out in the area as well.

ThreadKiller
01-29-2007, 12:21 PM
Use the bug report system please. If you find some particular parleys turned up to high (the Spirit Guardians of the Vulmane for example) then report them. Although it was frustrating to get through, the quest behind it was fun and very rewarding. Don't let a small bump derail what is potentially the most innovative features to come out in a long time (not that playing a game of Magik is innovative, but how it manifests itself in the overall picture is). If you play a parley that is strictly dependant on recast times, report it as too difficult and explain you reasons.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 01:28 PM
As of last night (Sunday 1/28) the Vulmane Spiritragers still seemed unbeatable (2 of the 3 anyway).

I beat one of them two days ago (Saturday) very easily (blue was allowed). But the next two use the same deck (no blues) with all no cost, 2 influence cards.

At this stage, I only have 2 no-cost cards that give me any influence (a 2 and a 1). I lead with the 2 , then he counters with a 2 (moving the marker to 0). Then I use my 1 influence, he counters with another 2 (moving it to his side). Then I'm stuck using 0's to build up my red dots while he continues to use 2's.

Once the marker is on his side I can never get it back. By the time I get 4 red to spend on my '5' card the marker is already 5 on his side.

The lowest I've ever gotten with the last two Spiritragers is 6 influence, and I've tried every combination of cards I can think of.

This is way too hard for a newbie quest.

ThreadKiller
01-29-2007, 01:55 PM
the guardian on the right is a little easier but the other two are very hard and require good recast times (unless someone else has a better set of cards to use, I'd love to hear them)

Snippet of Wisdom
Fan the Flames
Aggressive Statement
Flurry of Arguments
Enticing Whisper

Play snippet first then fan the flames if you don't get a 1 turn recast on Fan the Flames say farewell and start over (at least there is no penalty for losing at this level). You will need anther favorable recast on on of you other cards, as well as, a not so favorable recast on one of his. I was able to step 5 people through it this weekend, and It's getting a little tired.

SO PLEASE BUG IT AS TOO HARD....that is unless all these people who say it was "easy" but refuse to tell you what cards they used wants to chime in.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 02:01 PM
I forgot to mention, I did file a /bug report.

Socratic
01-29-2007, 04:22 PM
The only thing that really frustrated me was that I was told it was being fixed and then I returned to him to see that his cards have changed but he is still just as ridiculous as before. In some ways moreso with the addition of his 4 influence demand card.

I just think it's important early on to deny the use of random refresh timers as a difficulty variable. I doubt the system is being designed with this in mind but it is the case in a few places right now.

Last night a GM told me "you may never receieve it" regarding the Elegantly Carved Pipe I never received for completing my quest in BC. Considering the pipe is necessary to start civic diplomacy I was more than a bit heated. I don't think he knew what he was talking about though. Has anyone ever heard of a game bug denying you an important item and being told "too bad?"

I just keep reminding myself that this is designed to be a long game and I knew there were going to be fixes on top of fixes as it went along. I still love the damn game though.

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 11:28 AM
the spirit guardians have been patched today, and are now easier to beat!