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troldan
01-29-2007, 09:44 AM
i'm not saying it's totally impossible for everyone, but if you do not have a card that feeds you anything other than red you are screwed.
I spent 2 hours last night trying to get past them. During beta i could easily.
I am a druid vulmane. Of course all the focus for my race/class is on the red.

Everytime sprirtrager plays a card they get 2 points on there side. Thay have an unlimited supply of free 2 point cards. I tried not feeding them any expression and this is how i found out.

If your facing them away from the city the spritrager on the right is the only one who is beatable.

btw, if this was anything but a starter quest i would say to myself look for ways to get cards but this is not. Its my starter quest.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 01:51 PM
As a Vulmane Shaman, I have encountered the same problem.

The spiritrager on the right was easy to beat, but the other two are impossible to beat with the cards I have at this time. I can score on my first two cards, but after that he moves the slider to his side and I can't get it back. The lowest I've been able to get (after 25+ tries) was 6 influence.

This is just way too hard for a newbie quest. I filed a /bug report.

Jaxom
01-29-2007, 04:54 PM
I'm a Vulmane Dread Knight and it took me a little while thinking about it (i.e. about 10 hands) before I beat all three. As is posted elsewhere, the one on the right (facing away from the city) is the easiest but the other two can be managed if you look at how they play. You don't have any advanced cards so you just have to think about how to make the best use of what you can get and use. My play hand was built using 4 cards from the initial training (the 2-influence card and three 3-influence cards depending on what expression is forbidden each time). The Fifth card is a 0-influence card to generate expression for myself so that I am not sucking fumes while my opponent denies me expression.

Since they're using lots of "free" 2-influnce cards which give you one point to use, you know some constraints. That's not enough for a lot of your powerful cards. Further, with one type of expression blocked out depending on the type of parley, your opponent will play to give you that first. As a result, if you open with a 1- or 0-influence card, you know you will be consistently losing points. On the other hand, if you open with your 2-pointer you'll win your first round and not lose anything on his play.

On your second play, if you play a 0-pointer that gives you 2 expression (paired) that you can immediately convert for 3-influence, then you are *still* ahead of him by the time you play your third card. By the end of your third card your opponent is racking up a bunch of expression that he will never use (so who cares) and the influence marker is still one point in your favor.

He plays his third card and it is now one influence in his favor but you have the card that you opened with back for 2 influence so you score again. His fourth play is going to give you *more* expression to play and at this point your 0-point card to generate a lot of expression is almost certainly back. So regardless of his fifth play you are going to be in a position to play *some* 3-influence card.

Put it this way... After I figured out how to play speed influence instead of trying to control expression I didn't lose to the third spirit rager at all.


Now, I admit that this is *nothing* like I normally play. I much prefer a solid Demand/Inspire Gossip deck and I have built my Diplomacy collection specifically for that. All but one of the cards I used against the spirit ragers is from the starting training and I had three equal options to plug in for the fifth card so although I can't think of every card you might have gained I can be pretty sure that one that you have at least one that is a 0-influence card that will generate at least two expression on your side of the board.

troldan
01-29-2007, 05:19 PM
that strat only works if you have a 0 cost card that gives something besides red because they don't feed red. i only have red to use.
my character cannot pass it.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 05:38 PM
After many, many tries, using every combination of cards I can think of, the best I could do was this -

Me: 2 - slider at 2 (me) score 8-9
NPC: 2 - slider at 0 score still 8-9
Me: 1 - slider at 1 (me) score 7-9
NPC: 2 - slider at 1(NPC) score 7-8
Me: 0 (give me 2 red) slider still at 1 (NPC) score 7-7
NPC: 2 - slider at 3 (NPC) score 7-6
Me: 3 (use 2 red dots) - slider at 0 score still 7-6
NPC: 2 - slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-5
Me: 0 (give me 2 red) slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-4
NPC: 2 - slider at 4 (NPC) score 7-3
Me: 2 (has refreshed) - slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-2
NPC: 2 - slider at 4 (NPC) score 7-1
Me: 1 (has refreshed) - slider at 3 (NPC) score 7-0 NPC wins

The NPC has 5 no-cost 2-influence cards. I have 2 no-cost cards that give me influence (a 1 and a 2 with long refresh times). My other no-cost cards give me expression, but 0 influence. The NPC doesn't give me 2 green or yellow until it is way too late to use those cards, so my red cards are the only way I can even get this close. But I can only use my red 3 influence card OR the 5 influence card once in each parlay.

troldan
01-29-2007, 06:56 PM
After many, many tries, using every combination of cards I can think of, the best I could do was this -

Me: 2 - slider at 2 (me) score 8-9
NPC: 2 - slider at 0 score still 8-9
Me: 1 - slider at 1 (me) score 7-9
NPC: 2 - slider at 1(NPC) score 7-8
Me: 0 (give me 2 red) slider still at 1 (NPC) score 7-7
NPC: 2 - slider at 3 (NPC) score 7-6
Me: 3 (use 2 red dots) - slider at 0 score still 7-6
NPC: 2 - slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-5
Me: 0 (give me 2 red) slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-4
NPC: 2 - slider at 4 (NPC) score 7-3
Me: 2 (has refreshed) - slider at 2 (NPC) score 7-2
NPC: 2 - slider at 4 (NPC) score 7-1
Me: 1 (has refreshed) - slider at 3 (NPC) score 7-0 NPC wins

The NPC has 5 no-cost 2-influence cards. I have 2 no-cost cards that give me influence (a 1 and a 2 with long refresh times). My other no-cost cards give me expression, but 0 influence. The NPC doesn't give me 2 green or yellow until it is way too late to use those cards, so my red cards are the only way I can even get this close. But I can only use my red 3 influence card OR the 5 influence card once in each parlay.

same type of thing here.

Jaxom
01-29-2007, 07:07 PM
That strat is specifically designed to feed you Demand to play *one* 3-inspiration demand card (twice during the parley if your timer works). 1-point Comments are useless and if you put them into your hand you deserve to lose. They generate no expression for you and they don't get you inspiration fast enough to stop him so you *know* they are a losing strategy. Look elsewhere. You should have 3 3-point Assertions in your hand (missing the one blocked for type of parley). You should have Snippet of Wisdom in your hand and you should have a 0-point card to generate at least 2 Demand and 1 of something that is not blocked for the parley.


Open with Snippet of Wisdom
8-9, marker 2 (you), no leftover expression

He plays something and gives you no expression because he hits the blocked expression.
8-9, marker at 0, no leftover expression

Your 0-pointer. This is to guarantee you that you have a play next *two* rounds.
8-9, marker at 0, 2 demand and 1 other

He plays something and gives you one expression, not demand.
8-8, marker at 2 (him), you have 2 demand, 1 and 1 of the others

Aggressive Statment
7-8, marker at 1 (you), 2 expression, not paired, not demand

He plays another 2-pointer and gives you paired expression.
7-7, marker at 1 (him), 0 demand, 2 and 1 other

Your appropriate 3-point Assertion
6-7, marker at 2 (you), 0 demand, 0 and 1

He plays something, who cares.

You play Snippet of Wisdom again, it is now 5-7 and your cards are starting to come back while his are running out (because they have miserable refresh times because they are powerful). At this point it is left as an exercise to the reader to play the cards. Sooner rather than later you generate 2 more demand and 1 of the pair already played, he pairs up what you have not played and you score some more. It's harder than any other parely you will play in the intro, but it can be done.

The key is that you know *exactly* what he is going to do and you know what in your hand loses (if you watched his cards go by in your early losses). So don't use cards that lose, like 1-pointers. And since you only have one card to use 2 demand there is no point in generating boat-loads of it because you'll only waste it sitting around waiting for Aggressive Statement to refresh (and unless you are way lucky on refresh timers, you'll never power both Vulmane Howl and Aggressive Statement with two 0-pointers). So don't put that wasted card in your hand. Find something else. You'll find that the only thing you are left with is the hand in the opening paragraph. You may have to play each parley twice if the refresh totally screws you. You also get Snippet of Wisdom every 4th card which is as powerful as anything he is playing (more powerful, in fact since he is not using all the expression you give him and you are refreshing about twice as fast as he is).

Don't be afraid to give ground playing your 0-influence on the second card because you're setting up a 3-pointer. You know you'll continue to score and you'll draw the match out which favors your lower refresh, higher influence cards.


If you have managed to get to this parley with no way to generate three expression for yourself, then you are probably in trouble unless you get lucky on refresh times. I don't *think* that is possible though (I have not got complete records of all the choices).


As an aside, you can look at things from the perspective of influence generated per card and come to most of the same conclusions. Snippet of Wisdom works since you get to open. A 0-pointer for 2 demand and nothing else doesn't work because it only generates 3 influence for 2 cards. A 0-pointer for 2 demand *plus* something that he will pair generates 6 influence for 3 cards which puts you back in good shape.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 07:18 PM
I'm not sure if I have the 3-3 point Assertions, but if I do it looks like this will work. I'm anxious to give it a try when I get home from work tonight.

From what I remember though, I don't get 2 expression of any color to spend until the slider is pretty far onto his side. But maybe it will go differently this time.

Thanks for the tip Jaxom !

Jaxom
01-29-2007, 07:33 PM
I'm not sure if I have the 3-3 point Assertions, but if I do it looks like this will work. I'm anxious to give it a try when I get home from work tonight.


I guarantee you have 4 3-point Assertions, one of each color. Everyone of every race gets them for completing the intro diplomacy parley with the trainer (I usually have both Aggressive Statement (the demand one) and the Inspiration one in my hand because they complement so nicely). Just pick the three that are valid colors for the parley. The one that I *cannot* guarantee is the 0-pointer with 2 demand and 1 other. I know I had it and I don't think that you can *not* have it as a Vulmane but I have not validated all the possible combinations of choices and can't find them from work.

Slyde_Rule
01-29-2007, 07:49 PM
I do have the 0-pointer that gives me 2 demand and 1 other (blue I think - which is useless in this parley). I actually have 2 no-cost 0-pointers that give me 2 demand (red), but I will just use 1 of them with the 3-3 point Assertions and the Snippet of Wisdom. I will give it a try and post my results tomorrow.

troldan
01-29-2007, 09:27 PM
maybe the issue is i don't have a 0 card that gives me anything but 2 red and a blue and blue is blocked so i'm screwed there.
i have no way of generating anything but red and blue and blue is blocked.

Matuse
01-29-2007, 10:23 PM
I was under the same restriction, with the 2 red/1 blue generation card. I still used it when I beat them.

The strategy outlined is the correct one, except you have to be a bit more reliant on the spiritrager to slowly feed you expression so you can hit him with a 3-consecutive card whallop of 3 pointers. There is unfortunately a pretty large chunk of luck involved. You need good timers on your cards, and bad timers on his (particularly that 0 cost, 2 influence, give-you-two-blue card, since all the other ones he uses help you a little, and this one screws you with your pants on).

I've beaten them, and my deck was identical to all of yours. It's hard; really hard. Absurdly hard. Sigil-must-fix-this-soon hard. But it is not impossible.

Jarker
01-30-2007, 12:00 AM
can you move on without finishing this quest?

Jaxom
01-30-2007, 03:16 AM
You cannot move on without finishing this quest.

If you do not have a card to provide 2 demand and 1 of something *not* Inspire, then use the fastest 2-demand card you have.

In this case, your strengths are fast card recovery and the ability to play those 3-point Assertions.


I went back tonight to check and there is a 1-3 refresh 2-demand card in my deck that could substitute as well (Fan the Flames I think it was). You can use that card in this deck just as easily and the low refresh on it means you probably have something to play all the time. You can't try to shift for Vulmane Howl (your 5-pointer) though because if you do then you spend too long in the early rounds behind in influence and the parley is over before you can strike big.

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 11:21 AM
I've been able to step quite a few people through this with the warning that it is a 50 to 1 shot to win (using the recast times to determine the odds).

Snippit of Wisdom, Fan the Flames, Aggressive Statement, Flurry of Arguments, and Enticing Whisper.

I lead with Snippit, and follow with Fan the Flames, if you don't get a recast time of 1, say farewell (you don't seam to lose points this early in the diplomacy game). If you get a recast of 1 play Aggressive Statement and once again hope for a fast recast.....if all goes well you will be able to play your high value cards in a row at the end.

It does work, but the odds are long.

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 11:27 AM
they got patched today, they are now fixed!!!!!

Jarker
01-30-2007, 12:00 PM
They may have fixed it, but i cannot see the spirits now lol

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 12:35 PM
that's funny, I have seen them disappear before though.

Slyde_Rule
01-30-2007, 12:52 PM
They disappeared last night (on Woefeather) just as I was about to try this strategy. Will try again tonight... /sigh

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 01:04 PM
something just dawned on me....but I can't remember the order of this quest. Do you already have the Spirit of the Hunter token yet (the one that summoms the green ghost like wolf)? Latter on in this quest you need to go calm the Grurok, and he has 4 mini-me's with him to parley with. They kept disapearing on me, and it finally struck me that I had to have the wolf summoned to talk to them......but I can't remember if you actually get the wolf after this quest, or if you already have it.

Jarker
01-30-2007, 02:00 PM
i just abandoned the quest and got it again. somewhat easy now. lots of yellow and green. plus you can use blue

got past two of them then the thrid one disappeared. will this game ever let me leave this town? lol

ThreadKiller
01-30-2007, 03:17 PM
your not nearly done with this quest line yet.....lot's more fun to follow before you get to leave for Halgarad. ;-)

Slyde_Rule
01-31-2007, 12:50 PM
something just dawned on me....but I can't remember the order of this quest. Do you already have the Spirit of the Hunter token yet (the one that summoms the green ghost like wolf)? Latter on in this quest you need to go calm the Grurok, and he has 4 mini-me's with him to parley with. They kept disapearing on me, and it finally struck me that I had to have the wolf summoned to talk to them......but I can't remember if you actually get the wolf after this quest, or if you already have it.

No, the Spiritragers are part of the quest that gets you the token for the ghost wolf, which is used in the next stage.

As of last night (1/30/07) the Spiritragers are much easier to beat. It took me two tries on both of them (beat the easy one a few days ago), so they aren't no-brainers. Just had to see which expressions they were feeding me and adjusted my cards to match, then I beat them easily.

I did try the strategy suggested by Jaxom, and it worked very well. I think it probably would've worked even if they hadn't 'fixed' the last two Spiritragers.

I'm just happy that I can now continue the newbie diplomacy quests that I have been stuck on for several days.

Jaxom
01-31-2007, 06:32 PM
As of last night (1/30/07) the Spiritragers are much easier to beat. It took me two tries on both of them (beat the easy one a few days ago), so they aren't no-brainers. Just had to see which expressions they were feeding me and adjusted my cards to match, then I beat them easily.

I did try the strategy suggested by Jaxom, and it worked very well. I think it probably would've worked even if they hadn't 'fixed' the last two Spiritragers.


Glad to hear it worked for you. I have no idea what the decks look like now that they have been patched. I'd love to know what they play now since I am still seeing shouts on Thunderaxe about it while I craft but I don't know if my answer is still valid. :confused:

Slyde_Rule
01-31-2007, 06:43 PM
Glad to hear it worked for you. I have no idea what the decks look like now that they have been patched. I'd love to know what they play now since I am still seeing shouts on Thunderaxe about it while I craft but I don't know if my answer is still valid. :confused:

Well, they still played a lot of no-cost 2-pointers, with a 4 or 5 thrown in at least once. Blue is now available, and they feed points to at least 3 colors, so I used 3 of my 3-pointers, the 2-point no-cost Snippet of Wisdom, and my no-cost 0-points that gives me 2 red. On one parley the NPC had to Listen for a turn - never had that happen before on the Spiritragers.

Only thing I had to adjust was which 3-pointer to exclude (after seeing which colors he was feeding).