PvP: Sorcerer Damage Not Reduced

[Vengeful]

If I'm not mistaken all damaging abilities have had their effects reduced for PvP. It appears that the Sorcerer (or some of the sorcerers abilities) have been missed. At least on the Team PvP server.

One sorcerer was able to kill a full group of adversaries with a 3 level spread (some a little higher some a little lower) in about 3 seconds with two bursts of AoE. Tanks included.

When we were finally able to defeat him, we had to try to tank him like a normal mob (this is a full group, mind you) with heals coming in and everyone staying out of AE range aside from myself (a paladin). The battle only took about 5 seconds, but I dropped to under 100 HP twice, and blew my LoH just to stay alive and keep him busy while the ranged DPS killed him.

What makes this story even worse was that in about 10 minutes this guy probably made about 20 silver off of us. I talked to him in whispers after we killed him.... he seemed suprised I didn't die and asked how much HP I had, cause he dealt out nearly 2500 damage to me in those 5 seconds. I said around 1200, but I used LoH and I had incoming heals.



Reminder: This is not a cry for nerf. It's a cry for fix.

[Treesong]

This is like Gandalf against the rest of the Fellowship. Seems about right. :D

[Vengeful]

This is like Gandalf against the rest of the Fellowship. Seems about right. :D

My head is laughing....but my coin purse is crying.

[taurus999s]

This is like Gandalf against the rest of the Fellowship. Seems about right. :D

ROFL... that reply was hilarious ..

[jonyak]

really? I'm level 8 and I fought a level 9 last nigth and I didn;t do a hit of damage to him, and I threw like4 spells at him. I have no idea how to fight in this game.

[Vengeful]

really? I'm level 8 and I fought a level 9 last nigth and I didn;t do a hit of damage to him, and I threw like4 spells at him. I have no idea how to fight in this game.

It could just be that AoE that he was doing. The one that makes a little nova that shoots out from the Sorcerer's midsection. That seemed to be the only thing he was casting.

It sure did hurt though. I wish I had saved the combat logs.

I watched a level 17 Warrior charge up to him (The sorcerer was level 16) and drop to 10% HP in one hit.

[jonyak]

It could just be that AoE that he was doing. The one that makes a little nova that shoots out from the Sorcerer's midsection. That seemed to be the only thing he was casting.

It sure did hurt though. I wish I had saved the combat logs.

I watched a level 17 Warrior charge up to him (The sorcerer was level 16) and drop to 10% HP in one hit.

I'm really sorry and this is probably a huge noob question (thats the first time I think I have ever typed noob) but what is an AoE?

[Vengeful]

really? I'm level 8 and I fought a level 9 last nigth and I didn;t do a hit of damage to him, and I threw like4 spells at him. I have no idea how to fight in this game.

I'm really sorry and this is probably a huge noob question (thats the first time I think I have ever typed noob) but what is an AoE?

Area of Effect

[Exec]

Area of Effect

LOL - sounds like the "fix" is to stay our of AoE range! /grin

[tracertong]

haha that sounds so funny. Some fat guy at his pc pwning a whole group of noobs at once. Visions of Southpark's "wow" episode spring to mind :cry:

[Jacosta]

And the whining commences to nerf this class. Hell it hasn't even be launched for a full day and someone is already whining for nerfs. This has got to be a world MMO record.

[Sensational]

And the whining commences to nerf this class. Hell it hasn't even be launched for a full day and someone is already whining for nerfs. This has got to be a world MMO record.

It's called balancing, and it's done quite frequently in beta/newly launched games. E-Z mode is never a good thing.

[Jacosta]

It's called balancing, and it's done quite frequently in beta/newly launched games. E-Z mode is never a good thing.

I agree that there should be balancing, but sorcerer's balance is they have no armor to speak of and have low hit points.

[Sensational]

I agree that there should be balancing, but sorcerer's balance is they have no armor to speak of and have low hit points.

Well, i haven't even played the game yet so i can't say anything about this specific situation, i was just mentioning that nerfs aren't always bad and that balance should always be one of the top priorities in an MMOG.

[Jacosta]

Well, i haven't even played the game yet so i can't say anything about this specific situation, i was just mentioning that nerfs aren't always bad and that balance should always be one of the top priorities in an MMOG.

All of the classes got a balance pass during beta 5. They are fine and no one really complained about the design of the classes during that time frame during testing on the old beta boards.

[Sensational]

All of the classes got a balance pass during beta 5. They are fine and no one really complained about the design of the classes during that time frame during testing on the old beta boards.

Did you guys (If you were in the beta.) manage to test the end-game/high level balance? Guess this is kinda off-topic, but i'm just wondering.

[Jacosta]

Did you guys (If you were in the beta.) manage to test the end-game/high level balance? Guess this is kinda off-topic, but i'm just wondering.

Hand picked testers were chosen to do the end content and balance. I wasn't one of them, but from what I understand that these guys are sworn to secrecy under penalties of death.

[Sensational]

Hand picked testers were chosen to do the end content and balance. I wasn't one of them, but from what I understand that these guys are sworn to secrecy under penalties of death.

Hah, well, lets hope they did a good job of telling the Devs what was good and what wasn't then.

[Mageon]

DELETE this thread before we get hit with the nerf bat

[Vengeful]

I agree that there should be balancing, but sorcerer's balance is they have no armor to speak of and have low hit points.

OOoookay.

For one, two shotting ENTIRE GROUPS within 3 seconds is not balanced. Especially since other classes that have a similar set up (Low HP and Low Armor) can't do that.

Please read and respond to the subject instead of jumping to conclusions about it's content.

And mind you...we are talking about PvP damage, not PvE damage. Sorcerers are fine in PvE.... but every other class got their PvP damage reduced, seemingly except the sorcerer. It's a bug....needs to be fixed.

[Jacosta]

OOoookay.

For one, two shotting ENTIRE GROUPS within 3 seconds is not balanced. Especially since other classes that have a similar set up (Low HP and Low Armor) can't do that.

Please read and respond to the subject instead of jumping to conclusions about it's content.

Yes I know what the thread is about and it's for nerfing sorcerers. You were saying?

[Vengeful]

I agree that there should be balancing, but sorcerer's balance is they have no armor to speak of and have low hit points.

DELETE this thread before we get hit with the nerf bat

WHAT?! No!

Not nerf! Fix for PvP damage so Sorceres aren't doing their full damage....JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

800 point nukes aren't supposed to hit for 800 points in PvP so that combat lasts longer and is more strategic. 3 second battles in which one person can obliterate an ENTIRE GROUP with two casts is neither what the devs inteded or equally represented by other classes in the same archetype.

[Vengeful]

Yes I know what the thread is about and it's for nerfing sorcerers. You were saying?

I was saying that Sorcerers (seemingly) get full PvP damage while all other classes do not.

It's a bug and needs to be brought to light so it can be fixed and not exploited.

[Jacosta]

WHAT?! No!

Not nerf! Fix for PvP damage so Sorceres aren't doing their full damage....JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

800 point nukes aren't supposed to hit for 800 points in PvP so that combat lasts longer and is more strategic. 3 second battles in which one person can obliterate an ENTIRE GROUP with two casts is neither what the devs inteded or equally represented by other classes in the same archetype.

Gee let me think of a way to neutralize the AoE advantage... spacing between your party members. What's the radius on the AoE? Once you figure that part out then you make sure to space your group out so no more then one member can get hit. Learn tactics and stop whining.

[WallaWalla]

Gee let me think of a way to neutralize the AoE advantage... spacing between your party members. What's the radius on the AoE? Once you figure that part out then you make sure to space your group out so no more then one member can get hit. Learn tactics and stop whining.

Actually it seems very unbalanced to me, they should reduce the damage so it takes at least 3-4 hits to kill

[Jacosta]

Actually it seems very unbalanced to me, they should reduce the damage so it takes at least 3-4 hits to kill

Or you can do the flip side and increase everyone's damage to full.

[WallaWalla]

Or you can do the flip side and increase everyone's damage to full.

True

[Carni]

Gee let me think of a way to neutralize the AoE advantage... spacing between your party members. What's the radius on the AoE? Once you figure that part out then you make sure to space your group out so no more then one member can get hit. Learn tactics and stop whining.

Really? Your group is so disciplined that you're going to be attacking on a frontage of 60 meters everywhere you go? Cause you see, I'm not going to give you Dementia when you're out there in attack formation, I'm going to plaster you with my AoE when you're all stuck in some tight corridor trying to take down some mob.

After you are all dead I will send you tells telling you that you should have used tactics to avoid dying to a spell that was designed to take down mobs that have twice your hit points.

[Jacosta]

Really? Your group is so disciplined that you're going to be attacking on a frontage of 60 meters everywhere you go? Cause you see, I'm not going to give you Dementia when you're out there in attack formation, I'm going to plaster you with my AoE when you're all stuck in some tight corridor trying to take down some mob.

After you are all dead I will send you tells telling you that you should have used tactics to avoid dying to a spell that was designed to take down mobs that have twice your hit points.

Thank you for helping me prove my point. ;)

[Halbe]

Thank you for helping me prove my point. ;)

Call it a nerf if you want, but this is in the best interest of Vanguard as a whole.

I have no problem with a sorc toasting me for distance. It's what they do. As a disciple, I figure I'll be dealing with this quite often.

However, when the same class can also do nearly equal damage from melee range, and with an AoE no less, it doesn't take much common sense to understand how this can be a problem.

As a disciple, I need to be in melee. The struggle should be, can I get close enough to do dmg, avoiding his nukes, while keeping myself alive. Him being able to outdamage me from distance, and then in melee, to the point where I can't even keep up with heals, is ridiculous.

Same problems all tanks will face against them, as with Melee DPS classes. You penalize us for getting into a position that SHOULD favor us.

Melee range for a sorc should be about avoidence spells to return to safe spell casting range, not a WTFPWN spell that is equally devistating.

It's not a nerf, it's common sense.

[Halbe]

Oh, and the fact that the spell is Instant Cast and only on the Global Cooldown should also point you in the direction of how assinine the current situation is.

It's not hard to understand. Really, it's not.

[Mageon]

WHAT?! No!

Not nerf! Fix for PvP damage so Sorceres aren't doing their full damage....JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

800 point nukes aren't supposed to hit for 800 points in PvP so that combat lasts longer and is more strategic. 3 second battles in which one person can obliterate an ENTIRE GROUP with two casts is neither what the devs inteded or equally represented by other classes in the same archetype.

Well I dunno about 800 point damage.

at lvl 10, the AoE you speak of does about 200-220 damage. If he got a lucky crit then 400+.

The problem with trying to tweak the damage now is that it will have adverse effects in end game - when everyone is totally gear dependent. Yes in one specific situation the Sorc will shine, short term AoE damage, short term the because AoE uses both endurance and mana causing significant downtime inbetween uses.

Also the sorc is in Light armor - IE NO DEFENSE, its not wise to bum rush a sorc unless you can stun him. So don't ask for a balanace/fix/nerf to the Sorc strength, instead learn what it is and counter it - shoot at him from a distance or stun and go in.

If you were to request a balance/nerf/fix then a lot of classes would need them, like the cleric who can shield themselves and heal while you do nothing to them.

Point is the classes are balanced, which doesnt mean that they do not have strengths in certain situations or vs certain classes. if you whine too much about this class and that it will become WoW where everyone is basically the same except for shamman who owns everyone.

LET THE DIFFERENCES LIVE!!



Mageon
10 Sorc
FFA PvP

[Grizzle]

How about you play on a PvE server, or quit bitching about dying in PvP. The game is designed for PvE not PvP and no changes to the classes individual abilities should be made based upon PvP intentions. If it -is- truely a bug, and the sorcs AoE is not being afftected then it will be corrected. I suspect that is not the case, but rather Sorc are the best at short term burst dps, and can wtf own alot of people with it. I be a rogue still could own them by sneaking up on them. :D Point being, this will not be WoW where there is constant PvP balancing. Some classes will be better at PvP, most likely the ones with Mez, Burst DPS, AoE, and Ranged attacks. what class does that sound like?

[Mageon]

How about you play on a PvE server, or quit bitching about dying in PvP. The game is designed for PvE not PvP and no changes to the classes individual abilities should be made based upon PvP intentions. If it -is- truely a bug, and the sorcs AoE is not being afftected then it will be corrected. I suspect that is not the case, but rather Sorc are the best at short term burst dps, and can wtf own alot of people with it. I be a rogue still could own them by sneaking up on them. :D Point being, this will not be WoW where there is constant PvP balancing. Some classes will be better at PvP, most likely the ones with Mez, Burst DPS, AoE, and Ranged attacks. what class does that sound like?

QFT

[Vengeful]

Yes I know what the thread is about and it's for nerfing sorcerers. You were saying?

Or you can do the flip side and increase everyone's damage to full.

Again....

The AoE was practically oneshotting casters and two shotting defensive tanks. That is a bug, not an error on our part. I'm not making any statement about PvP balance. I'm not calling for there to be equal chance for all classes in all 1v1 scenarios....this isn't wow.

But I think we can all agree that 3 second battles is too quick to make any statement about player skill. And 1 person killing 6 people in 3 seconds is just absurd.

It is obviously bugged, and when the devs find out they'll adjust it...no matter how hard you cry nerf. It's not a nerf if it fixes something that was never intended to be.

[Halbe]

How about you play on a PvE server, or quit bitching about dying in PvP. The game is designed for PvE not PvP and no changes to the classes individual abilities should be made based upon PvP intentions. If it -is- truely a bug, and the sorcs AoE is not being afftected then it will be corrected. I suspect that is not the case, but rather Sorc are the best at short term burst dps, and can wtf own alot of people with it. I be a rogue still could own them by sneaking up on them. :D Point being, this will not be WoW where there is constant PvP balancing. Some classes will be better at PvP, most likely the ones with Mez, Burst DPS, AoE, and Ranged attacks. what class does that sound like?

It's not about dying, it's about balance.

To suggest that because it's PvP, that certain classes should be, well, unplayable, is completely assinine. Will classes shine? Of course. SHould a class be a near juggernaut? Uh, no.

And I hate the "The game was built around PvE" crap. If I'm not mistaken, this stance was taken on the offical VG forums when they were live, and a Dev actually posted, stating that his job was just that, balancing the classes whether it be PvP or PvE.

Don't make assumptions based on what you believe to be the actual mechanics of the game, when it has been stated to the contrary.

Anyway, your logic is also flawed.

Short-term DPS. Yes, I agree. Even AoE dmg, mages should be king, within a reasonable limit.

Why do you think they wear light armor? Because their place of specialty should be away from the fight, not being beat on. Sorc's are supposed to be weak against melee attacks, and should be rewarded by keeping the opposition at bay.

Is this the case now? No. A sorc welcomes the oppertunity to mash it's instant, Global cool-down AoE, because they know you are pretty much powerless against it.

You honestly think that's how it should be?

[Vengeful]

How about you play on a PvE server, or quit bitching about dying in PvP. The game is designed for PvE not PvP and no changes to the classes individual abilities should be made based upon PvP intentions. If it -is- truely a bug, and the sorcs AoE is not being afftected then it will be corrected. I suspect that is not the case, but rather Sorc are the best at short term burst dps, and can wtf own alot of people with it. I be a rogue still could own them by sneaking up on them. :D Point being, this will not be WoW where there is constant PvP balancing. Some classes will be better at PvP, most likely the ones with Mez, Burst DPS, AoE, and Ranged attacks. what class does that sound like?

I'm cool with that. But the thing is.... Why is my main attack that deals 225 damage normally to a mob only dealing 115 to a caster? And now why is the
Sorcerer the only one that can deal full damage to a PvP opponant?

All PvP damage was lowered to lengthen PvP encounter times....except for the Sorcerer, which is why they are broken. It's a bug and should be reported as such.

[Rulan]

If this is accurate it definitely needs to be fixed.

[Halbe]

I'm cool with that. But the thing is.... Why is my main attack that deals 225 damage normally to a mob only dealing 115 to a caster? And now why is the
Sorcerer the only one that can deal full damage to a PvP opponant?

All PvP damage was lowered to lengthen PvP encounter times....except for the Sorcerer, which is why they are broken. It's a bug and should be reported as such.

QFT.

I have absolutly no problem with being killed. It's why I rolled on a PvP server.

If I'm fighting a Monk, and lose repeatedly due to the fact that, well, he just outplays me, outlevels me, or catches me with some lucky crits, I'm not gonna cry "NERF!"

However, let's call a spade a spade here. This isn't, I would imagine by your commentary, intended.

Considering a Dev did say on the VG boards that they would make efforts to balance classes in PvP, as well as the nerf to all damage except Sorcs, I'm going to assume that this is a bug, and needs to be addressed. If they say no, not a bug? Fine, I'll just run from them at all costs, or just travel with 3 of them.

[Vengeful]

Well I dunno about 800 point damage.

at lvl 10, the AoE you speak of does about 200-220 damage. If he got a lucky crit then 400+.

The problem with trying to tweak the damage now is that it will have adverse effects in end game - when everyone is totally gear dependent. Yes in one specific situation the Sorc will shine, short term AoE damage, short term the because AoE uses both endurance and mana causing significant downtime inbetween uses.

Also the sorc is in Light armor - IE NO DEFENSE, its not wise to bum rush a sorc unless you can stun him. So don't ask for a balanace/fix/nerf to the Sorc strength, instead learn what it is and counter it - shoot at him from a distance or stun and go in.

If you were to request a balance/nerf/fix then a lot of classes would need them, like the cleric who can shield themselves and heal while you do nothing to them.

Point is the classes are balanced, which doesnt mean that they do not have strengths in certain situations or vs certain classes. if you whine too much about this class and that it will become WoW where everyone is basically the same except for shamman who owns everyone.

LET THE DIFFERENCES LIVE!!



Mageon
10 Sorc
FFA PvP

Hey man, it looks like a bug to me...that's why I brought it up. If the devs read this and agree...that is their perogative. I just call'em like I see'em.

But honestly... 1 person killing 6 people in about 3 seconds time doesn't seem reasonable at all.

And also, they've said that they've engineered damage to work differently in PvE and PvP and that it'll be very easy to make slight changes in DPS output to keep all classes up to snuff in both types of combat, regardless of how high end gear affects the classes.

Oh, and also...does your AE do the 225 to PvE and PvP encounters? Cause an attack of mine that does 225 to a mob only does like 115 against another player. And that's 225 to a mitigation mob and 115 to a caster.

[Halbe]

I would actually be fine if they kept their damage at the current level.

But ATLEAST put a cooldown on the AoE. There is no reason they should pump out that kind of DPS instantly, with its only barrier the Global Cooldown.

[Vengeful]

Great....this got moved to Arcane Caster section. Now all we'll get are people with something to lose on the subject.

So much for an attempt at an unbiased discussion.

Bring on the "Go roll PvE carebare" and "Stop crying nerf" comments. I'm sure that's all we'll get now.

[Riz]

Vengeful, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I play a BMG and a Sorc on the PvP server. On BOTH, I do within my normal damage range on every cast. Melee chars do normal damage against me.

The sorc is a glass cannon and is SUPPOSED to be deadly. I've killed and been killed by that AE (it's wicked). It takes 3 hits to kill a caster at 12, and 4 plus a couple instas to kill a melee (which is my full power and energy bar). Your story simply doesn't make sense.

Now, two sorcs can easily wipe a group if they get in close and work together. Of course, they have very few hps and are pretty easy to take down. A level 12 Psi can 2 shot me (and has). A DK can one shot me. Heck, lets not even get into the fact that any decent healer can outheal my AE and be at full health/half mana while I'm on empty and trying to beat feet.

Please stop spewing falshoods and whines. If you can't take the PvP server, please find another one to your liking.

[Riz]

I would actually be fine if they kept their damage at the current level.

But ATLEAST put a cooldown on the AoE. There is no reason they should pump out that kind of DPS instantly, with its only barrier the Global Cooldown.

Why not? Sorc is a DPS class. DPS is all we do. Give me heals and sure. Give me good CC and why not. Give me armor and I'll accept it. Other than that, we are SUPPOSED to do huge damage. It's the trade-off for wearing diapers and having no utility.

[Surtur55]

Hey man, it looks like a bug to me...that's why I brought it up. If the devs read this and agree...that is their perogative. I just call'em like I see'em.

But honestly... 1 person killing 6 people in about 3 seconds time doesn't seem reasonable at all.

And also, they've said that they've engineered damage to work differently in PvE and PvP and that it'll be very easy to make slight changes in DPS output to keep all classes up to snuff in both types of combat, regardless of how high end gear affects the classes.

Oh, and also...does your AE do the 225 to PvE and PvP encounters? Cause an attack of mine that does 225 to a mob only does like 115 against another player. And that's 225 to a mitigation mob and 115 to a caster.

3 seconds? Bit of an exaggeration there pal. Plus you said it did 800 damage? Huh? Rank one is 200-250 in pve, and rank two is about 400. Maybe the sorc got some lucky crits, but they definately don't do that normally.

Last time I checked, global cooldown was three seconds(I think I can count anyways).

Do you know anything about the cost of the spell anyways? Rank one is 200 mana, 20 endurance. Thats a *maximum* of 5-6 casts before the sorc must stop.

If a sorc can waltz into a group of SIX players and sit there and cast the 200-250dmg aoe and kill ALL of you, something isn't overly powerful with the sorc, but with the people who are being killed. Sorc's have such low HPs, they're basically 2-3shotted by anyone.

Give me a break.

[Vengeful]

3 seconds? Bit of an exaggeration there pal. Plus you said it did 800 damage? Huh? Rank one is 200-250 in pve, and rank two is about 400. Maybe the sorc got some lucky crits, but they definately don't do that normally.

Last time I checked, global cooldown was three seconds(I think I can count anyways).

Do you know anything about the cost of the spell anyways? Rank one is 200 mana, 20 endurance. Thats a *maximum* of 5-6 casts before the sorc must stop.

If a sorc can waltz into a group of SIX players and sit there and cast the 200-250dmg aoe and kill ALL of you, something isn't overly powerful with the sorc, but with the people who are being killed. Sorc's have such low HPs, they're basically 2-3shotted by anyone.

Give me a break.

It only took two casts of his AE to kill everyone in the group. So yeah...3 seconds.

And No...I didn't say it did 800 damage. I was being hypothetical with that...

Any yeah...it's kinda easy for a Sorc to waltz into a group of 6 when the Sorcerer has Invisibility, but that's not the part I'm worried about. I love the Sorcerers have invisibility, and yeah...I think it gives them a definate edge in combat and I appretiate that. But the damage is just nuts. PvP Sorc damage needs to be looked at and treated like all the other classes. Combat is too quick to be fun.

[Vengeful]

Vengeful, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

I play a BMG and a Sorc on the PvP server. On BOTH, I do within my normal damage range on every cast. Melee chars do normal damage against me.

The sorc is a glass cannon and is SUPPOSED to be deadly. I've killed and been killed by that AE (it's wicked). It takes 3 hits to kill a caster at 12, and 4 plus a couple instas to kill a melee (which is my full power and energy bar). Your story simply doesn't make sense.

Now, two sorcs can easily wipe a group if they get in close and work together. Of course, they have very few hps and are pretty easy to take down. A level 12 Psi can 2 shot me (and has). A DK can one shot me. Heck, lets not even get into the fact that any decent healer can outheal my AE and be at full health/half mana while I'm on empty and trying to beat feet.

Please stop spewing falshoods and whines. If you can't take the PvP server, please find another one to your liking.

Whatever...I understand. You have something you want to protect. From what I've been told the issue is already being passed along. Something fishy is up with Sorcerer Damage one way or the other. Don't cry if you get fixed.

Peace.

[Rulan]

If you're a BM or sorc and think your class is fine try rolling up a different class and fighting one.

[Gromph]

OOoookay.

For one, two shotting ENTIRE GROUPS within 3 seconds is not balanced. Especially since other classes that have a similar set up (Low HP and Low Armor) can't do that.

Please read and respond to the subject instead of jumping to conclusions about it's content.

And mind you...we are talking about PvP damage, not PvE damage. Sorcerers are fine in PvE.... but every other class got their PvP damage reduced, seemingly except the sorcerer. It's a bug....needs to be fixed.

I need to reply to this topic since I am pretty sure I am the sorcerer the OP is describing (I destroyed his entire group in 3 seconds yesterday).

My view of the imbalance is in the fact that none of your group members had see invis, and thus I was able to walk right up ontop of you all and spam burst damage before any of you had a chance to even engage yourselves into a PVP mindset. I fought your group in Three rivers about an hour before this when you all attacked me and you were able to outheal my dps and take me down.

EDIT: I was using rank 2 energy rift which was hitting consistently between 300-350 (crit once at 650)..

[Gromph]

Why not? Sorc is a DPS class. DPS is all we do. Give me heals and sure. Give me good CC and why not. Give me armor and I'll accept it. Other than that, we are SUPPOSED to do huge damage. It's the trade-off for wearing diapers and having no utility.


I completely agree.. if I dont drop you within 2-3 seconds I'm dead. No HP.. No armor.. No run speed..

[Vengeful]

I need to reply to this topic since I am pretty sure I am the sorcerer the OP is describing (I destroyed his entire group in 3 seconds yesterday).

My view of the imbalance is in the fact that none of your group members had see invis, and thus I was able to walk right up ontop of you all and spam burst damage before any of you had a chance to even engage yourselves into a PVP mindset. I fought your group in Three rivers about an hour before this when you all attacked me and you were able to outheal my dps and take me down.

EDIT: I was using rank 2 energy rift which was hitting consistently between 300-350 (crit once at 650)..

Hi Gromph!

/wave

Ya. See. 3 seconds =P

Anyways...yeah. The invis thing is -=an=- issue, but I don't necissarily think it is -=the=- issue. All of my abilities were hitting you for about 50% damage, every single one.... all my group mates, including a warrior which was one level above you, was registering the same thing.

Which leads me to believe that either all other classes have a bug and the devs lied about PvP damage being smaller than PvE damage. Or sorcerers are bugged and should have their PvP damage reduced (for the sake of PvP balance).

/shrug But my opinion doesn't necissarily matter. If it's a bug, the devs will find out about it. If it isn't..well... perhaps I should roll a sorcerer =P

[monte]

Hi Gromph!

/wave

Ya. See. 3 seconds =P

Anyways...yeah. The invis thing is -=an=- issue, but I don't necissarily think it is -=the=- issue. All of my abilities were hitting you for about 50% damage, every single one.... all my group mates, including a warrior which was one level above you, was registering the same thing.

Which leads me to believe that either all other classes have a bug and the devs lied about PvP damage being smaller than PvE damage. Or sorcerers are bugged and should have their PvP damage reduced (for the sake of PvP balance).

/shrug But my opinion doesn't necissarily matter. If it's a bug, the devs will find out about it. If it isn't..well... perhaps I should roll a sorcerer =P

As I play a sorc, there is no way he could have killed you in just 3 seconds. We can only get 1 and 1/2 spells of that AOE off in that time. It sounds more like he invis'd and spanked out 2 or so spells before you know had been attacked. so that was bout 350 a hit.. so about 700 damage if crit a little more. by using the level II spell he had to be around 16-18 and most characters at that level don't have a ton of HP. So, sounds more like he played smart and got you with your pants down.

If PvP at lvl 17 many times in beta. If I can keep a melee from hitting me I will always win. (2 hits is usually death for me). A ranger will kick my ass if I can't keep him between bow and melee range. Again it is all about tactics and who see's who first.

[Vengeful]

As I play a sorc, there is no way he could have killed you in just 3 seconds. We can only get 1 and 1/2 spells of that AOE off in that time. It sounds more like he invis'd and spanked out 2 or so spells before you know had been attacked. so that was bout 350 a hit.. so about 700 damage if crit a little more. by using the level II spell he had to be around 16-18 and most characters at that level don't have a ton of HP. So, sounds more like he played smart and got you with your pants down.

If PvP at lvl 17 many times in beta. If I can keep a melee from hitting me I will always win. (2 hits is usually death for me). A ranger will kick my ass if I can't keep him between bow and melee range. Again it is all about tactics and who see's who first.

/shrug Maybe Gromph just knows what he's doing.

He about two shotted me when I and my group got the drop on him while he was out of invis. And I have 1200 HP, don't know my Spell mit off hand though. Anways... as I posted earlier.

When we did get the drop on him and killed him I had incoming heals and Had to blow my LoH to stay alive while ranged DPS nuked him down. The fight took between 5 and 10 seconds and I nearly died twice as the only melee on him.

And there is still the issue of why Mine (And many other classes I've spoken to) do only a percentage of their damage in PvP while Sorcerers seem to do full damage.

[sinsa]

sorcs do higher dmg in PVE vs PVP. play one to see. Also a sorc can die in two shots by almost any class. So for you to complain that he can two shot you just sounds fair to me.

You go on to say that you did infact beat him but it was hard. aww you had to us some tactics to figure out how to kill him.

So it's not a mindless game after all. It does in fact take thought and cooperation to win. Whoda thunk it. Yes, I suppose having to use tactics and thought is a reason to nerf huh?

Do you really want another rock paper scissors?

[Vengeful]

sorcs do higher dmg in PVE vs PVP. play one to see. Also a sorc can die in two shots by almost any class. So for you to complain that he can two shot you just sounds fair to me.

You go on to say that you did infact beat him but it was hard. aww you had to us some tactics to figure out how to kill him.

So it's not a mindless game after all. It does in fact take thought and cooperation to win. Whoda thunk it. Yes, I suppose having to use tactics and thought is a reason to nerf huh?

Do you really want another rock paper scissors?

Hey man... it would be awesome if it were just me versus him. I'd even be cool if it were 2v1. But it wasn't... it took 4 of us and we had to get the drop on him.

But again...I'm not talking about balance. That isn't what this is about. If Sorcerers don't have their PvP damage reduced, but are intended to...it's a bug and needs to be fixed. If it's some other issue...then I dunno. That's for a dev to work out.

But I will say you're the only sorcerer I've talked to that has said their PvP damage was smaller than PvE damage. Is that true for all your spells, including your AE?

[onecell]

If I'm not mistaken all damaging abilities have had their effects reduced for PvP. It appears that the Sorcerer (or some of the sorcerers abilities) have been missed. At least on the Team PvP server.

One sorcerer was able to kill a full group of adversaries with a 3 level spread (some a little higher some a little lower) in about 3 seconds with two bursts of AoE. Tanks included.

When we were finally able to defeat him, we had to try to tank him like a normal mob (this is a full group, mind you) with heals coming in and everyone staying out of AE range aside from myself (a paladin). The battle only took about 5 seconds, but I dropped to under 100 HP twice, and blew my LoH just to stay alive and keep him busy while the ranged DPS killed him.

What makes this story even worse was that in about 10 minutes this guy probably made about 20 silver off of us. I talked to him in whispers after we killed him.... he seemed suprised I didn't die and asked how much HP I had, cause he dealt out nearly 2500 damage to me in those 5 seconds. I said around 1200, but I used LoH and I had incoming heals.



Reminder: This is not a cry for nerf. It's a cry for fix.

Best I can tell testing the pvp issue on FFA is that all casters seem to be doin full damage compared to melee. When my buddy running his barb lvl 8 vs my sorc 8 i never casted on him and let him beat on me. He did like no damage at all took him forever to come close to killing me. I did Char than my rift aoe and almost killed him. I agree that sorc nerf is not the issue, nor the damage level the sorc is causeing there is a clear formula problem here, low hps mean i should take sick melee damage. In PvE if the mob is one or two up on me I take hella damage but in pvp I take hardly any melee damage but I seem to take significant casting damage. So either the casting formula is bugged or the melee vs defense formula is bugged. So i agree nerfing the class or the spells arent the issue but the combat formula is defintely bugged.

Keep it dry and clean and they wont half to remove it
Onecell

[onecell]

sorcs do higher dmg in PVE vs PVP. play one to see. Also a sorc can die in two shots by almost any class. So for you to complain that he can two shot you just sounds fair to me.

You go on to say that you did infact beat him but it was hard. aww you had to us some tactics to figure out how to kill him.

So it's not a mindless game after all. It does in fact take thought and cooperation to win. Whoda thunk it. Yes, I suppose having to use tactics and thought is a reason to nerf huh?

Do you really want another rock paper scissors?

This is just not true on the FFA server could be a server sensitive issue but now sure me and a grup of friends tried it out and the fact that a 7 cleric was killing a 8 barb in less than 8 sec was crazy didnt make sense

Onecell

[monte]

This is just not true on the FFA server could be a server sensitive issue but now sure me and a grup of friends tried it out and the fact that a 7 cleric was killing a 8 barb in less than 8 sec was crazy didnt make sense

Onecell

Actually it makes good sense. You see. Sorc are king of burst damage. We do it hard and quick, but can't keep it up long. We get 5 AOE shots max after that our stam is out. Yes our PB AOE uses stam. I have PvP with my sorc and dueled with him. If a warrior gets close I am dead in one or two hits. A range person can kill me in one or two hits. So I have to play hard and better to beat them.

Now see if your cleric and bard are both in close range to the sorc you should die. Very bad tactics. Your bard should have rushed him and the cleric stay away from him and heal the bard or himself, depending on who the sorc is going after. If he is attacking cleric, bard should have hit him a few times with a bow. Sorc would have died quick. Again as before bad tactics you lose.

A test with level 8 characters means nothing. The bard probably had crap weapons. At level 16 a level 16 anything can 2 shot me. I need to play hard and smart to win. Not just rush and kill.

[Riz]

Last night on my Sorc, a Ranger killed me in 2 shots with his bow. So, I can kill somebody fast, and I die just as fast.

Honestly, sounds fair. The ONLY way a sorc can take on a whole group, as you say, is if that group is full of idiots who bunch up. Sounds like that describes your group Vengeful.

Stop whining about damage when your spell mit is around 2% right now. When you level up and have high spell mit, and we are still at no real melee mit, THEN you can see how it's balanced. Trying to balance the game from a teens level perspective, well...that's pretty stupid.

[Vengeful]

Actually it makes good sense. You see. Sorc are king of burst damage. We do it hard and quick, but can't keep it up long. We get 5 AOE shots max after that our stam is out. Yes our PB AOE uses stam. I have PvP with my sorc and dueled with him. If a warrior gets close I am dead in one or two hits. A range person can kill me in one or two hits. So I have to play hard and better to beat them.

Now see if your cleric and bard are both in close range to the sorc you should die. Very bad tactics. Your bard should have rushed him and the cleric stay away from him and heal the bard or himself, depending on who the sorc is going after. If he is attacking cleric, bard should have hit him a few times with a bow. Sorc would have died quick. Again as before bad tactics you lose.

A test with level 8 characters means nothing. The bard probably had crap weapons. At level 16 a level 16 anything can 2 shot me. I need to play hard and smart to win. Not just rush and kill.

Allow me to pull the same card on you. I play a tank, and I'm the king of mitigation. I shouldn't be dying as quickly as I am to a caster or anyone, especially since my damage is so low and it takes me forever to kill someone.

It's pretty obvious that something is borked. Perhaps oncell is more correct and there is a PvP mitigation problem (seems more likely given some of the info in this thread).

[Vengeful]

Last night on my Sorc, a Ranger killed me in 2 shots with his bow. So, I can kill somebody fast, and I die just as fast.

Honestly, sounds fair. The ONLY way a sorc can take on a whole group, as you say, is if that group is full of idiots who bunch up. Sounds like that describes your group Vengeful.

Stop whining about damage when your spell mit is around 2% right now. When you level up and have high spell mit, and we are still at no real melee mit, THEN you can see how it's balanced. Trying to balance the game from a teens level perspective, well...that's pretty stupid.

If you had paid attention, my group (4 people at the time) got the drop on Gromph here, I was the only one in range, I'm a tank (You know...the ones that mitigate damage and are supposed to stand in the way of things so that Squishy Sorcerers don't die)...I had incoming heals and I used LoH....almost died twice. I'm a tank. Something is wrong. I souldn't be taking that much damage.

And it isn't that difficult for a sorcerer to get in the middle of a bunch of people without them knowing it. When Gromph did kill everyone in the group in a matter of seconds, we were about to pull some PvE....and he was invisible. He used what was given to him (and I'm not bitching about that)... I'm not bitching that he caught us unawares and not ready for PvP (We were about to go into Khegor's End)...

...I'm bitching about how my damage (which is low anyways) is reduced even further in PvP, and a Sorcerer's damage isn't reduced at all. And I'm bitching that if and when I DO get close enough to do some damage to a sorcerer I can barely do 15% damage to him before I die.

[onecell]

Actually it makes good sense. You see. Sorc are king of burst damage. We do it hard and quick, but can't keep it up long. We get 5 AOE shots max after that our stam is out. Yes our PB AOE uses stam. I have PvP with my sorc and dueled with him. If a warrior gets close I am dead in one or two hits. A range person can kill me in one or two hits. So I have to play hard and better to beat them.

Now see if your cleric and bard are both in close range to the sorc you should die. Very bad tactics. Your bard should have rushed him and the cleric stay away from him and heal the bard or himself, depending on who the sorc is going after. If he is attacking cleric, bard should have hit him a few times with a bow. Sorc would have died quick. Again as before bad tactics you lose.

A test with level 8 characters means nothing. The bard probably had crap weapons. At level 16 a level 16 anything can 2 shot me. I need to play hard and smart to win. Not just rush and kill.

Couple issues I didnt explain that post well, the problem was the ridiculous melee damage, the Barbarian and Cleric stood toe to toe all were fully clad in a mix of drp armor and crafted armor no vendor bought armor. The barbarian was doing an average of 35 to 65 points of damage with player crafted and drp based weapons. We had the Barb switch out all weapon types, and the Barb's point gain in each weapon type was maxed and still only did low point damage on all the switch outs. Now on the off chance that the issue might be offensive class vs defensive class issue we did the sam process with a Rogue and a Monk and got the same results. Which all of this doesnt suggest a Sorc nerf at all but points towards a formula proble with casting damage in general vs melee damage. The cleric cast 4 times, 2 of which crit and the barbarian was about 25 points from death. Just curious to see if others have noticed this issue and pleas realise this not a sorc nerf request since i run a sorc lol.

Onecell

[onecell]

If you had paid attention, my group (4 people at the time) got the drop on Gromph here, I was the only one in range, I'm a tank (You know...the ones that mitigate damage and are supposed to stand in the way of things so that Squishy Sorcerers don't die)...I had incoming heals and I used LoH....almost died twice. I'm a tank. Something is wrong. I souldn't be taking that much damage.

And it isn't that difficult for a sorcerer to get in the middle of a bunch of people without them knowing it. When Gromph did kill everyone in the group in a matter of seconds, we were about to pull some PvE....and he was invisible. He used what was given to him (and I'm not bitching about that)... I'm not bitching that he caught us unawares and not ready for PvP (We were about to go into Khegor's End)...

...I'm bitching about how my damage (which is low anyways) is reduced even further in PvP, and a Sorcerer's damage isn't reduced at all. And I'm bitching that if and when I DO get close enough to do some damage to a sorcerer I can barely do 15% damage to him before I die.


Not really a sorc issue its a casting issue in general. I suspect that damage melee is right based on the low HP factor of the caster targets the problem is that casting of all sorts Druid, Sorc, Blood Mage...... etc should have the same mitigation process. The main point for this is that as a Sorc which I play on the FFA server I can cast while I move. Taking that in consideration a damage adjustment to all the casting classes with the uninterupted casting while moving more than makes the run battle last longer and on equal footing.

Onecell

[Vengeful]

Not really a sorc issue its a casting issue in general. I suspect that damage melee is right based on the low HP factor of the caster targets the problem is that casting of all sorts Druid, Sorc, Blood Mage...... etc should have the same mitigation process. The main point for this is that as a Sorc which I play on the FFA server I can cast while I move. Taking that in consideration a damage adjustment to all the casting classes with the uninterupted casting while moving more than makes the run battle last longer and on equal footing.

Onecell

I think it may be archetype based, because (as a Paladin) I have a mix of spells and melee abilities. My spell's damage is reduced, same as my melee attacks.

[sinsa]

OK

I did some tests on a level 11 ranger with a level 11 sorc last night.

The numbers don't lie. I was wrong. The sorc's dmg and I guessing all casters dmg does not receive the same reduction that melee dmg does.

Energy Rift 252 255 254
Char 153 174 251 169 251 all with varieg two tick dots that hit for 40's-70's
Bolt's 201 198 201 never got a crit on him. didn't try too long though the numbers were already speaking volumes.
Grasp 201 198
Frost 112 108

I didn't write down the numbers vs mobs but the mobs I killed ranged from 8-12. Mobs South of Tursh. Well the numbers were damn near identical. I would even say that the mobs had better resists because, on some of them they actually were lower than the average from fighting my ranger friend.

So I was wrong. NERF ME!

And on the side of defense. I go down in three shots if crits happen.

[Vengeful]

OK

I did some tests on a level 11 ranger with a level 11 sorc last night.

The numbers don't lie. I was wrong. The sorc's dmg and I guessing all casters dmg does not receive the same reduction that melee dmg does.

Energy Rift 252 255 254
Char 153 174 251 169 251 all with varieg two tick dots that hit for 40's-70's
Bolt's 201 198 201 never got a crit on him. didn't try too long though the numbers were already speaking volumes.
Grasp 201 198
Frost 112 108

I didn't write down the numbers vs mobs but the mobs I killed ranged from 8-12. Mobs South of Tursh. Well the numbers were damn near identical. I would even say that the mobs had better resists because, on some of them they actually were lower than the average from fighting my ranger friend.

So I was wrong. NERF ME!

And on the side of defense. I go down in three shots if crits happen.

Thank you so much for looking into this Sinsa, instead of just blowing me off as a nerf-baby. I'm all for imbalances in classes...unless it is just simply unreasonable.

[Vengeful]

- Fixed a bug that was causing inflated PvP spell damage.


Thank you very much.....




...asshats.

[Armgora]

I'm all for imbalances in classes...unless it is just simply unreasonable.

Let me be the first to tell you that I agree with the socrerers being overpowered until yesterday, but now we are over-nerfed. We can't land our spells and we do ridiculously low damage and I just can't find any ways to win against any class at any level near mine in pvp now. I know many will think I'm whining about my class being nerfed but I hope the devs will see they underpowered the socrerer too much like this.

[sinsa]

Thank you so much for looking into this Sinsa, instead of just blowing me off as a nerf-baby. I'm all for imbalances in classes...unless it is just simply unreasonable.

yea I agree. We were hitting to hard. But a 60% dmg nerf? That's a little bit much. I go from doin consistent dmg with char of 200 now down to 75 and Rift down from 250 to 100.

OUCH.

I can get some more exact numbers later. The tears smudged the first test.

[Melios]

Why is this topic even here? Whatever happened to sweeping PVP topics under the rug in the remote corridor like civilized people? :eek:

[sinsa]

Why is this topic even here? Whatever happened to sweeping PVP topics under the rug in the remote corridor like civilized people? :eek:

civilization no longer exists

[Vengeful]

fortunately, PvP balancing is ongoing...so hopefully they'll fix the over-nerf.

But I will say.... 1 class over nerfed is better than 1 class over powered.

...especially for the rest of us =P

[sinsa]

fortunately, PvP balancing is ongoing...so hopefully they'll fix the over-nerf.

But I will say.... 1 class over nerfed is better than 1 class over powered.

...especially for the rest of us =P

yea I have to agree.

**ties his bandages tighter and steps back in there**

LTB Redman suit.

[monte]

yea I have to agree.

**ties his bandages tighter and steps back in there**

LTB Redman suit.

Great.. people do the crying thing and now we are nerfed to hell.... So now every other class can 1, 2 or 3 shot me to death and I have to cast 10 or 15 spells to kill them...

So healer classes become the king of PvP... Cast 5 or 6 spells on them to get them 2/3 health... One heal.. full health... Now I am getting close to being out of mana and they can still blast away.

As a Sorc... with no healling, very little buffs damage was the only thing we had. Now we got crap.

[Soliex]

Great.. people do the crying thing and now we are nerfed to hell.... So now every other class can 1, 2 or 3 shot me to death and I have to cast 10 or 15 spells to kill them...

So healer classes become the king of PvP... Cast 5 or 6 spells on them to get them 2/3 health... One heal.. full health... Now I am getting close to being out of mana and they can still blast away.

As a Sorc... with no healling, very little buffs damage was the only thing we had. Now we got crap.

Thats exactly how I feel, We cant outdamage heals, and we cant out-mana them either.

All we can do is Flee with invisibility...

which also brings up the question, What the hell are we going to do when everyone has high resist's?

[sinsa]

Great.. people do the crying thing and now we are nerfed to hell.... So now every other class can 1, 2 or 3 shot me to death and I have to cast 10 or 15 spells to kill them...

So healer classes become the king of PvP... Cast 5 or 6 spells on them to get them 2/3 health... One heal.. full health... Now I am getting close to being out of mana and they can still blast away.

As a Sorc... with no healling, very little buffs damage was the only thing we had. Now we got crap.

I wouldn't say nerfed to hell. Maybe nerfed damage while not considering low HP and lack of physical defenses.

Anyway I got some more numbers

PVP *12 sorc vs an 11 shaman

fireball I hits for 125 + 21*2 same three times in a row

Char I 96+29*2
96+29*2
97+30*2

Bolts III 169
165
169

Frostbite II 94
96
94

Rift 139
136
206 + 68 crit

Grasp 135

PVE *12 sorc vs level 10**

Didn't do fireball as it would have pulled too much agro where I was testing.

Char I 162+50*2
159+51*2
156+49*2

Bolts III 292
293
292

Frostbite II 109
105

Rift 230
230
229
226

Damn it. It looks like I forgot to do Grasp.

Seems to be a bit better than %50 nerf on damage on most skills. Some, like Char, seem to be less nerfed. I have to say on paper it doesn't look bad. But, playing it, that's another story. We truly feel our squishiness now.

Also, I should add that different mobs have different resists. I chose the spiders in the Arcanium in Leth because I know I don't hit them as hard as I do, say the elves or the ghosts in there. Hmm after writing this I think i should test this on mobs with lower resists. The Shaman I was beating on wasn't well equipped.

*NOTE: This is not the same sorcerer from my first test.