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View Full Version : Some "State of Diplomacy" Stuff


Aruspex - SGO
02-01-2007, 06:37 AM
Hi guys - I posted this originally over at the Diplomacy affiliate VGTact.com, but I wanted to share it with a few of the other sites I frequent so the word gets out:

"A few quick notes as I drift off to some sleeps.

There are a lot of valid concerns here. I'm willing to face the music on these issues, so do not feel like you need to pull punches. You _will_ get better response out of me if you're constructive - and so far, even the "worst trolls" have had some constructive criticism in there.

I'm working tonight on a little device we're calling the "Altar of Kaerellun" - which allows you to trade information for cards, adventuring items, prestige items, etc. this should help relieve the bank slot pressure while we expand our content.

The deck lockouts/civic dip lockouts and such went in before the patch notes. That was a simple slowdown in the patch note pipeline, and I see it's since been corrected. We're doing another change that I'll tell you about right here so you will be prepared when it happens (in case the patch notes don't update within a couple hours of the servers coming up when they get patched in):

- Starting in the next code patch for the game (I'm not allowed to reveal our patch schedule for non-content stuff), you will not be able to parley with an opponent more than 50 points greater than you in Diplomacy.

This goes with two other fixes, which are:

- You cannot gain more than one skill point in a single parley.
- The time in which you are locked out on a win with a single NPC on a single specific conversation is increased.

As we tweak the AI for our decks, we watch player response closely. When you have a group of testers who know the game inside and out, the only way we can truly understand the difficulty of the deck is 1) math, and 2) look and feel when they hit Live. We have folks doing the math, and we have folks doing the look and feel thing - and then we watch how it plays.

The level 50 deck thing is my top AI/deck priority while we work on coding in new functionality for the AI to be able to handle more situations in parley. It is not the only thing we are working on.

As we put in low-level content, we also have resources allocated to putting in some upper-mid-range stuff - the sort of thing that shows you what you can DO with Diplomacy. I'll give some hints in the next weeks, but we're saving the proof for the pudding.

In all my experience with MMO communities on both sides of the looking glass, I have never seen a more enthusiastic, inspired, and motivated team than the one I have the honor of working with. Coupled with the outstanding and the gratifying response of you, the players, this system is a diamond in the rough. If it wasn't for you guys, it would never be shaped into the amazing thing that it is becoming.

o
A"

Johnnie
02-01-2007, 08:32 AM
Hi Aruspex,

Thank you for the *Evidence about Plots* ! :)

I really enjoy Diplomacy and for me as a Gnome its hard work to run from Mekalia to Khal, just to do some business ;) I am looking forward to having all content implemented and/or unlocked - these Altars are the first step i guess.

Gaining some new cards for Information is a great idea, but tbh - those questlines you need the adequate presence for (e.g. in Khal - Undermining the Port Authority (50 Domestic Presence) and further on 50 Outsiders presence)) should have better card-rewards then ;)

As you announced Diplomacy as a sphere i cannot see a reason for having a min. Level of 10 in Adventuring or Crafting to ride a mount. Skill 101 is "pain in the a**" to achieve - so an idea is to unlock this content for diplomats this way:

SKill 101 - Slow Mount (equal to Level 10 Mount)
Skill 201 - Medium Mount (.. level 20)
Skill 301 - Fast Mount ( .. level 30)
Skill 401 - Gryphon (or better 201 :D)

As far as i understood this game Diplomats are smarter anyways and should be able to ride a mount earlier than a WIS -10 Warrior :)

Thanks for reading :)

Best regards

Johnnie

dargath
02-01-2007, 03:51 PM
some better patch noted would be appreciated, and maybe a 0 faction loss for first loss of a parley. ( or just reduce loss period, when you guys are testing how possible a deck is, losing 10 wins worth of faction after the third try is umm a bit much)

Currently when you totally change characters decks as happened last night, and its not clearly announced you lose mutiple wins worth of faction to find out the fact that your perfectly tailored deck now has no chance of winning.

a second issue is the rewards. Currently most of the lvl 50-100 rewards are worth 2-8 cu for say a 3-5 minute parley as oppossed to lvl 7 mobs drops of 4 cu on encounters that last 30 seconds


edit ( after testing some more the npcs are still beatable with the right combo, the thing screwing with me was now different npcs of the same level use different decks)

side note, some soldiers in Tanvu give brodingers cleft presitgue for some reason

Aruspex - SGO
02-02-2007, 01:51 AM
You guys are mind-readers!

Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.

And the faction loss for losing a civic parley is going down.

o
A

Johnnie
02-02-2007, 05:15 AM
You guys are mind-readers!

Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.

And the faction loss for losing a civic parley is going down.

o
A

Thank you !

So, i dont have to achieve level 10 in adventuring or crafting to get that horse ? ;) I bought a horse for 12s to find out, it doesnt work :P

Tbh - i talked to the guy at level 1 and the quest for the horse is gone now. So perhaps you find a way not to reactivate it for those who clicked on the wrong guy at a wrong time :)

Last question - gaining speed and stabilty through quests is nice, but how to get someone to construct some wings on it ? ;) Easier way (in my eyes) would be to alter the req for the mounts. At least until another option has been found, because i travel a lot ...

Greetz

Johnnie

WallaWalla
02-02-2007, 09:19 AM
A large bag specificly for the different "evidence of plots" and things would be nice. They seem to unncessarily take up about 1/2 of my bags depending on how long I plan on parleying before going to the bank

Faite
02-02-2007, 09:39 AM
A large bag specificly for the different "evidence of plots" and things would be nice. They seem to unncessarily take up about 1/2 of my bags depending on how long I plan on parleying before going to the bank

You said your testers are experienced so just some input from a new person to diplomacy.

I might be missing some really obvious here, so if so let me know but the initial quests in CB, ie moon series, I find that they are too hard for a beginner. I am sure I don't understand an important part but maybe thats the tutorial, as i have taken the tutorial now three times and still, struggling to understand some things.

You may need some more 'gentle' if you will ways in the very start to learn, such as you do with the other spheres. In this it is like you are thrown into the hard end of the pool with no ropes and it is either sink or swim.

I know a lot want high level stuff but I would just like to see that the starting quests are just that, starting and progress in difficulty as you level.

Honestly, Im baffled lol, but enjoy it when it works. I just find it is more based on luck of what I pick than an actual story line you can wisely judge what to do next.

What am i missing?

WallaWalla
02-02-2007, 12:02 PM
Hmmm... another thing that would be great to add would be saving your strategies (and make alot of slots...I need a strategy or 2 for everyone I meet!)

Unless this is already in and I haven't found it...

Melios
02-02-2007, 05:00 PM
You guys are mind-readers!

Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.

And the faction loss for losing a civic parley is going down.

o
A

Will we earn other non-horse mounts like unicorns and wyrms?

Sarith Silverwolf
02-02-2007, 09:51 PM
I assume this will be going in, but I just want to state what I am hoping for.

I like my diplomacy more than adventuring, and I dislike crafting, so I hope to be able to do diplomacy for many hours without straight grinding. I would like for diplomacy to be more meaningful than just giving buffs to the city, which I am pretty sure I have read that it will be. What I want more, though, is to be able to play an actual diplomatic role, be sent to far off places to achieve a goal, and have to go through perhaps dozens of quests when I get there to even get the audience that I need to get, and as a result improve ties between places, perhaps opening new vendors in both places, or whatever. And getting notable items as a result, for both diplomacy and adventuring. I would like for diplomacy to be more solo-oriented in that matter, but I would also like for a group of diplomats to be required for high-end raiding, whether it be opening the dungeon beforehand, convincing the boss to do something that could potentially weaken it by convincing it that there is no impending threat, or any number of other things. I do not want to just sit in one place and do the same conversation over and over with the end reward being a few pieces of information and a buff that I will not end up using. I love this game, and I loved it in beta(though I think I liked my Ranger better in beta...), but I want there to be a meaning to what I like to do in it. 6+years of high end EQ made me want something a little difficult, and something that requires a modicum of intelligence.

Also, as an afterthought, I would also like to see diplomacy "bosses" where several diplomats have to parley at the same time, with the turns going in a cycle where each diplomat goes, then the boss, or 1 then boss then the next, some sort of multi-diplomat single encounter.

milow
02-02-2007, 10:33 PM
I like to see a bigger faction gain for the first time you beat an npc with a skill of over say 100 or 101 if you want. After the intial win then he can go down to the lower level returns, but this will get people to move around more. I have combat on and I see folks sit at the same 2 NPC and go back and forth because they know they can win and dont feel like chancing the large faction hit. I lose to an NPC and it take me 12 wins to get even again faction wise.

I tend to go in to a city (Tanuv, CB, and some ork city so far) and try everyone, but losing suck vs wining and for the ork I had to stay and farm one guy so I woudnt go kos and get killed. Not alot of fun making a system where your better off just doing 1 or 2 NPC.

I am not sure how thril I am with the change in the reward system. I do a low level crafting combine and I was making 60 copper and 20-50 in sellable. My cost 20-30 copper for materials. I do diplomatic chat which take just as long and I need 2-4 to get 1 item of info now and then I need 5-10 of them to get something that vendors for 2-12 coppers. That just isnt fun.

I would also like to see the range of NPC I can challage extend to 60-75 skill points vs the 50. If it isnt a multiply of 25 at least when I get a skill up I can maybe get a chance to chat at someone else.

The quest rewards (non card ones) that I ve seen from CB (ok it one item) just look bad. I need to get 80 acadimic presence and take on 3 225 skill NPC (I know the skill dosnt mean much) so I can get a 18 acadimic presence robe? Just dosnt seem worth it other then to say yeah I did it and all I got is a cheap shirt. heck might as well just give me a shirt that says that has as much use.

I like the diplomacy and it might just be that they are still working on it that leaves me wondering what to do next my skil is 120 ish, but I dont really like talking to NPC just for the off chance I might get a skill up in diplomacy and nothing else. Would like to think you can get some cash item and other stuff just like crafting or adventuring can.

astenniall
02-03-2007, 02:01 AM
You guys are mind-readers!

Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.


Ack! So ummmm if we destroyed our quest horse because it

a. was slower than the one we bought and..
b. was taking up space in a very overcrowded bank..

are we going to be able to replace it somehow? lol

astenniall
02-03-2007, 02:05 AM
I have combat on and I see folks sit at the same 2 NPC and go back and forth because they know they can win and dont feel like chancing the large faction hit.

Probably a misperception. My money would be on them working levers not them worrying about faction hits. When I move levers I always look for 2 or 3 mobs on the same presence with as short of distance between each other as possible.

NoBogui
02-03-2007, 03:24 AM
Any word on when this update is going to be in action? Maybe a quickie tomorrow? I [will] love you Sony ;)

Contact
02-03-2007, 03:48 AM
Any word on when this update is going to be in action? Maybe a quickie tomorrow? I [will] love you Sony ;)

This was said earlier in the thread:

- Starting in the next code patch for the game (I'm not allowed to reveal our patch schedule for non-content stuff), you will not be able to parley with an opponent more than 50 points greater than you in Diplomacy.

This goes with two other fixes, which are:

- You cannot gain more than one skill point in a single parley.
- The time in which you are locked out on a win with a single NPC on a single specific conversation is increased.

I'm not sure which parts you are looking forward to, but I imagine a lot of the diplomacy stuff would qualify under "code" patches and not "content" patches at this point.

Revolver Koala
02-03-2007, 05:29 AM
I'm working tonight on a little device we're calling the "Altar of Kaerellun" - which allows you to trade information for cards, adventuring items, prestige items, etc. this should help relieve the bank slot pressure while we expand our content.
I just wanted to toss this out: If we can trade info for cards and such, please include some of the basic cards for each expression in the mix. If your racial and class expressions are the same, it becomes obnoxiously difficult (though not impossible--usually) to win parleys that prohibit that expression. Our friend Ree, from the Defender quest in Tanvu, is my favorite example of a parley that's a lot tougher than it needs to be; as a Kojani Monk, I've dabbled in civic diplomacy and completed the horse quests, but between his Gossip type and his annoying tactics he's like a brick wall, seeing as how I have almost no tactical options that don't involve Reason.

Another little gripe is with the Civic Diplomacy Tutorial quests; the first phase would have you engage in civic Gossip conversations with guards and crafters to obtain Crude Hearsay for Blackmail according to the text, but I get no Gossip option with anyone when trying to engage in civic parley. I'm sure there's a reason for that (like maybe changes were made to civic diplomacy and the quests weren't updated), but this kind of stuff makes diplomacy more frustrating than it really needs to be. I'm told that you have a chance of getting any kind of info from any kind of conversation, but some clarity in the tutorial would be nice.

Overall, I love diplomacy and it's the #1 thing I'm most excited about in this game; I can't wait to see what it'll be like in the future. Just wanted to point out some of the specific issues I've seen so far (and I get the feeling I'm way behind the curve on this; I can't imagine nobody's brought this stuff up somewhere).

Matuse
02-03-2007, 08:07 AM
Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.

Well, this is bad news for me. Because my server crashed repeatedly on Sunday, I failed the horse quest. Unfortunately, there is a bug in place where because I beat one of the diplomacy people on the way (Lalen whatizname in Veskal to pick up Lightning in the first place), I can't repeat it. I can re-accept the quest from the guy in Veskal, but when I go to speak to Lalen again to diplo the horse from him, no diplomacy option exists in his talk menu.

I sent a mail to customersupport@sigil on Monday after a petition response from a GM told me I was out of luck as far as what he could do. I have yet to see a response.

Be somewhat annoyed if I'm locked out from the future quest line because of this.

maulus
02-03-2007, 09:48 AM
Any word on the Dark Elf plight?

It' currently impossible to do even one civic diplomacy parley. Diplomacy is completely and utterly broken for dark elves. It's so damn frustrating, it makes me want to break the game.

Gabbelgak
02-04-2007, 01:50 AM
You guys are mind-readers!

Yes, there is going to be upgrades to your diplomacy horse - we intend for you to have it gain speed and stability through quests.

And the faction loss for losing a civic parley is going down.

o
A

I destroyed my horse as well. Took up space and is slower than the cheapest horse, Please let us get it back! lol.

locherbread
02-04-2007, 05:58 AM
I destroyed my horse as well. Took up space and is slower than the cheapest horse, Please let us get it back! lol.


I didn't even recieve a horse after doing the tursh horse quest, granted I was only level 8 when I completed it.
Can I still recieve the horse, especially now I am level 10?

Revolver Koala
02-04-2007, 06:06 AM
I didn't even recieve a horse after doing the tursh horse quest, granted I was only level 8 when I completed it.
Can I still recieve the horse, especially now I am level 10?
Yeah, if it's anything like the CB horse quests there are two parts to it. Did you do a quest where you had to deliver a horse to someone in 20 minutes? If so, try talking to that person again. You should get a quest that calls for you to deliver packages to people within a time limit, and if you succeed at that one you get the horse.

Matuse
02-04-2007, 08:04 AM
Be somewhat annoyed if I'm locked out from the future quest line because of this.

Well, thanks to a recent patch that allowed us to abandon timed quests, I was able to get my diplo-horse. I re-took the quest, immediately abandoned it, then took it again, and all of the following diplomacy conversations were re-opened.

Course, had to run it twice, because I CTD while chunking, got killed while linkdead, and my tombstone fell below the world, but that's a whole seperate thing.

Resand
02-04-2007, 08:05 AM
High Elf horse quest are now impossible to beat (for me atlast).

Lalen Frae have a unbeatable deck.... This is the best combo I've come up with, not even close to be good enough: (Flatter is not used)

(To save on writing I'll write it down like this:
Parley round. Name: Infulece | Cost | What it gives me | What it gives him | refresh | Parley Status )


Nr. Name: Infulence | Cost | Gives Me | Gives Him | Refresh | parley Status
1. Line of Reasoning: 0 | - | 2 Reason, 1 Flatter | 1 Reason | 2-4(1) | 0
1. Dogmatic Parlance: 2 | - | - | 2 Flatter | 3-4(3) | Him 2
2. Itemized Comparison: 3 | 2 Reason | - | 1 Flatter | 3-5(5) | Me 1
2. Expert Analysis: 0 | - | - | 3 Inspire | 4-6(5) | Me 1
3. Maze of Logic: 0 | - | 2 Reason | 1 reason, 1 Inspire | 1-3(2) | Me 1
3. Cunning Ruse: 5 | 3 Inspire | 2 Reason | - | 1-3(3) | Him 4
4. Elven Wisdom: 5 | 4 Reason | - | 1 Reason | 1-2(2) | Me 1
4. Mind Over Matter: 5 | 3 Reason | 2 Demand | - | 1-3( ) | Him 4
5. Agressive Statment: 3 | 2 Demand | - | 1 Inspire | 3-5(3) | Him 1
5. Dogmatic Parlance: 2 | - | - | 2 Flatter | 3-4(3) | Him 3
6. Line of Reasoning: 0 | - | 2 Reason, 1 Flatter | 1 Reason | 2-4(1) | Him 3
6. Fear and Doubt: 0 | 2 Inspire | -1 of everything | - | 4-8( ) | Him 3
7. Maze of Logic: 0 | - | 2 Reason | 1 reason, 1 Inspire | 1-3(2) | Him 3
7. Cunning Ruse: 5 | 3 Inspire | 2 Reason | - | 1-3(3) | Him 8
8. Itemized Comparison: 3 | 2 Reason | - | 1 Flatter | 3-5(5) | Him 5
8. Expert Analysis: 0 | - | - | 3 Inspire | 4-6(5) | Him 5

Then he wins of course. He is also level 75, I've grinned my diplo skill to 70 to start on a more even fotting. He aparently also have 6 slots for cards, and a perfect deck for this kind off parley.

If anyone have any idea on how to beat him I would realy appreciate it.

SirAzdar
02-04-2007, 11:16 AM
This goes with two other fixes, which are:

- You cannot gain more than one skill point in a single parley.
- The time in which you are locked out on a win with a single NPC on a single specific conversation is increased.

A"

1 skill point increase per single parley is a little harsh. Some people started the diplomacy right off and got to 50 in one day, or higher. Some others just started diplomacy and gaining 1 point per parley is a definate grind. I noticed that losing a parley can accomplish a -10 or greater to a faction. Surely if we can lose 10 to a faction, we should be gaining more than 1 per single parley.

Contact
02-04-2007, 06:57 PM
I destroyed my horse as well. Took up space and is slower than the cheapest horse, Please let us get it back! lol.

Really? Aren't all "cheap" horses +25 run speed and then the cheap add-ons add an additional +9 or something like that?

Contact
02-04-2007, 06:59 PM
1 skill point increase per single parley is a little harsh. Some people started the diplomacy right off and got to 50 in one day, or higher. Some others just started diplomacy and gaining 1 point per parley is a definate grind. I noticed that losing a parley can accomplish a -10 or greater to a faction. Surely if we can lose 10 to a faction, we should be gaining more than 1 per single parley.

Skill != Faction. You can only gain one skill point per parley, you can still gain multiple faction points per parley.

Johnnie
02-04-2007, 11:20 PM
Skill != Faction. You can only gain one skill point per parley, you can still gain multiple faction points per parley.

Since Diplomacy is the only thing i do since retail - YES, you get 1 to 3 faction. Gaining 1 Skillpoint per Parley is in the beginning - later you get 1 Skillpoint for 7-10 Parleys. But this is ok if you compare 10 Skillpoints to 1 Level in other Spheres.