Fozzik's new system

[Fozzik]

07/27/2005 EDIT: Some prices are moving around a bit... the case and the new RAM I picked out are cheaper, and the processor and motherboard actually got more expensive. =( I'll try to keep things updated.

08/20/2005 EDIT: Prices continue to move, and I've changed some things again. I was able to now step the CPU up a notch for the same price, I've changed cases (due to wanting some improved cooling and various other things), and I may very well change motherboards.

Although I'm not making the purchase yet, I've basically come to a decision on everything except for the video card. I'm going to wait as long as I can (I'll be a part of Vanguard beta, so I won't be able to wait for release of the game). Not only because prices always go down, but also because I'm hoping beyond hope that we'll see developments on the graphics front, like ATI's long-delayed release of their next-gen chip, and maybe some more modestly priced (and better price/performance) new-generation options from both Nvidia and ATI.

At the highest end, Nvidia and ATI are generally very competitive...so I don't feel too bad about Sigil having a marketing/testing deal with ATI. If both Nvidia and ATI have close to the same performance at the same price point, I'll go with ATI and not look back.

So, here's what I'm planning to get. Some things might change, but for the most part it's probably set. I'll try to explain my thinking behind each component. Prices are from Newegg.com, I like to try to buy everything from one place when I can...so it all shows up and I can get to building without too much wait.

Operating system
Windows XP Pro, SP2.
Not much reasoning required here, Windows is pretty much the only choice for a gaming system...and Vanguard is being paid for by Microsoft. I won't be holding my breath for a Linux version. ;) I picked the professional version because of my dual-core processor...I know in the past that only the pro version supported dual processors. I'm not positive that's still the case, but I don't mind spending a bit more to be on the safe side.
OEM version - $142

Processor
Athlon 64 X2 4400+
I decided that since I generally keep a computer for 2+ years without many changes, dual-core was the way to go. Dual-core offers smoother multitasking and some nice speedups in a few programs right now, and it also offers the promise of big performance gains as more applications and games start taking advantage of multiple CPU-Intensive threads.

With the dual-core decision made, the choice of AMD or Intel was not very tough. Since I have the money to spend, I mainly looked at performance. Across the board, and especially in the case of gaming, AMD's dual-core processors win hands down. Not only do they perform better across most applications, they also run cooler and use less power. Also, because I can drop an AMD dual-core chip into the very mature motherboards based on the Nforce 4 939-pin platform, I save money and am better assured of stability.

I picked the 4200+ model because all the performance is there, and its price is still within reason. I looked at the 4400+ as well, because I feel the larger cache size may make more of a difference in the future, but I just couldn't see it justifying the currently much higher price. I've now switched to the 4400+, considering it has dropped to the price I was originally going to pay for the 4200+.
Althon X2 4400+ Retail box with fan - $546

Motherboard
The Nforce 4 chipset from Nvidia is a very mature, very high-performing platform that is absolutely packed with features. Also, many manufacturers are offering very attractive prices these days because the chipset has been around long enough to be optimized.

EDIT (08/26/05) -
Well, I've decided to get the ASUS A8N-SLI Premium, for a number of reasons.
First off, just about every one of them already comes with the version 1005 BIOS loaded, which supports dual-core and means I don't need to deal with flashing it right off the bat. Secondly, and this is probably the single biggest factor, this motherboard is passively cooled. It has a heatsink and heat pipe on the motherboard chip, which means no moving parts...No high-RPM fan like most other Nforce 4 boards. Quiet is a good thing, and no moving parts means it is much more reliable (If the passive cooling works effectively, of course...and my research says that in the case of this mobo, it works very well).
Another thing that pushed me over to this board is the falling prices on other components. It's now pretty easy to fit the extra cost into my budget, and motherboards really aren't a place to skimp on the quality or features. The A8N-SLI Premium comes with everything and the kitchen sink, including switching chips for the SLI, which means you can go from single to dual video card in the BIOS (no need to crack open the case and move things around like most SLI boards). Most of what I have read says this board is rock stable and has very complete BIOS options (obviously not as many as some overclocking-oriented boards...but I'm not going to overclock).
Retail ASUS A8N-SLI Premium package - $176

RAM - Main System Memory
I started looking at this with two things in mind. Clock speed is pretty much a non-issue for the time being on the AMD side of the house. PC3200 DDRRAM works great with the Athlon 64 and provides the bandwidth it needs to shine, and I don't overclock. With clock speed out of the way, I wanted 2GB, and I wanted good low timings. I think 2GB of RAM is on the verge of becoming common in gaming systems, and some games will already make use of more than 1GB if it's available. I wanted low timings because I didn't want to have to sacrifice too much with the bump in size.

07/27/2005 EDIT:Well, I told you this might happen... I changed my mind on the RAM (maybe not for the last time). OCZ is offering a 2GB kit with very nice timings (2-3-2-5), and I'm reading that with the Nforce 4, people aren't having any problems with it running at those timings at a 1T command rate. I know I mentioned somewhere that I had emailed OCZ tech support about their command rates, and found out they test at 2T...but after more research, it looks like just about all memory manufacturers do that, and most good quality RAM will handle a 1T command rate when you only populate two slots on the motherboard. OCZ has been coming on strong in the last couple years, and is a solid name for memory. Also, it's a little cheaper than my old choice. ;)
Retail package - $270

Video card
Here's where the trouble starts. I want a current-gen card. At release, Vanguard will be able to push any system available past its limits, and I want solid performance. I'm looking for mid-high resolution (1280x1024 or 1680x1050 if I get a flat panel), I want anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering, and I want to turn on at least some of the eye candy features (like HDR lighting). For this I know I'm going to need to open my wallet. I'm prepared to spend as much as $600 for the video card alone, but right now, for current generation cards, I only have one choice.

The Geforce 7800GTX. I would have no problem going with this card if I get the beta email tomorrow and have to make my purchase. Not only does the 7800GTX offer fantastic performance (especially in shader-heavy new and upcoming games), it also offers transparency anti-aliasing, which is a dramatic improvement over other types of AA if the horsepower is there to run it. Being able to get anti-aliasing inside of transparent textures will make the trees and grass in Vanguard look much better.

With all that said, a lot of signs point to ATI's R520 being even stronger in raw performance. I would really like to wait, not only because Sigil has a deal with ATI, but also because it might offer more performance for the money. Choices are good. I might still end up picking the Nvidia card...but at least I would have options. A lot will just depend on when ATI finally is able to get yields of their new chip up to an acceptable level. Most rumors are putting the launch either next month or the month after, and I might not have that long to wait.
Video card retail box - $600

Storage
Hard drives aren't really that tough to pick out right now. They are very cheap, and most of them are fairly close in performance. I wanted the fastest game loading times and lowest latency I could get, and usually that is always a function of rotation speed (and also density). The Western Digital Raptor is an obvious choice with its 10k RPM. However, the Raptor has been out for quite a long time now and hasn't changed. Its price hasn't changed either, since it has basically no competition as the only 10k RPM desktop SATA drive.

Other companies have been making improvements to their 7200 RPM drives, and they are catching up with the Raptor in performance. The rotation speed is the same, but just about everyone has been increasing the density of their platters. More data in a smaller area means the heads have a shorter distance to travel when they want to read/write...so performance goes up. In fact, there are some that even beat the Raptor in game loading performance now. The Raptor is probably still the best-performing single drive... but I don't think the slight edge it offers is worth the much higher price.

I wanted great performance, a fairly large capacity, and I didn't want to spend more than I had to. I figured there was no contest with the Raptor's performance, so I was prepared to pay almost double the price per megabyte in order to have the 10k monster. It turns out though, there are 7200 RPM drives that don't give up much performance, offer much larger sizes, and are a lot cheaper. Also, support for NCQ factored into my search for a hard drive, since it's been shown that in some multi-tasking scenarios, NCQ can make a big difference in performance. My motherboard supports NCQ, so why not have a drive that can do it?

You'll notice I didn't mention RAID. There is absolutely no reason to do a striped RAID array on a desktop computer. It gives you very little to no additional performance, and basically doubles the chances that you'll loose all your data. Oh, and you get to pay extra for that. A RAID 1 mirrored array makes some sense from a data security standpoint, but I back up to another drive anyway, so I don't need to deal with the slight performance hit that RAID 1 causes.

I picked the Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB drive. It's got the capacity, the performance, and a really nice price.
OEM drive - $112

Sound card
I've already got a Soundblaster Audigy, and I'll be moving that over to my new system. There really isn't a very good reason to spend money on a sound card right now, because Creative Labs has a next-generation sound chip on the way, called the X-Fi. All the buzz around the web points to this new chip being a dramatic improvement in sound...and I think I'll wait for that. Among its features is the ability to produce stunning 3D audio (in real time) using stereo headphones.
Audigy from old system - $0

Case and power supply
I'm generally very annoyed about ATX cases. I think case manufacturers are doing a pretty lousy job, but I won't start ranting about it now. Here's what I'm looking for in a case -

Easy to build in (well laid out, good space on the inside)
Quiet
Good airflow/cooling
Something not hideously ugly

I have been continually amazed at how difficult it is to find a mid-tower ATX case that fits those criteria.
I've decided to go with a ThermalTake Tsunami case. It has decent looks, two 120mm fans for front and back and a 90mm fan that blows almost directly onto the CPU and Video card. I like the cooling setup, as well as the size and layout inside. It's going to be a little louder than the Lanboy case I picked out previously... but I need some slightly more serious cooling I think, based on the video card and CPU choices I've made.
I've actually purchased the Tsunami case now (as you might have read in another thread) so this is off the list. I got it for $70 at CompUSA...a deal I couldn't refuse.

For power supplies, I wanted something up to date that would support the rather...well...massive demands of CPUs and graphics cards these days and in the future. Also I wanted to try and cut down the number of adaptors, so I wanted something with connectors for PCI-Express graphics cards, SATA, and a 24-pin power for the motherboard. I also like what some manufacturers are doing with cooling in power supplies now, offering a single 120mm fan. This will make it almost silent, but offer excellent cooling if things start heating up.

It's a very basic rule with power supplies that the cooler they are, the better they work. It's always a good idea to buy more power supply than you need, because if it's not working hard, it will stay cool and provide the best power. I chose the Antec TruPower II 550W, for all the above reasons, and because I've had great experiences with Antec power supplies in the past. It offers 2 separate 12V rails, both pushing 19 Amps. Good stuff.

Antec TruPowerII 550W - $105

Optical drives
It's time to get a DVD drive. Whether it's a reader or a writer, the technology is mature, it's fast, and the capacity is essential for games these days. Nobody wants to install a game using 10 CDs.

DVD burners are pretty much a no-brainer, they burn and read everything, including dual-layer DVDs, and they cost so little. I've done a lot of reading and I've come no closer to knowing what brand is best to buy...but I've liked Samsung products in the past, so I'll go with them and tell you if it sucks. ;) There's an NEC for the same price... it got lots of good reviews...maybe I'll just flip a coin.
Samsung DVD burner (16x-4x-12x blah blah 5x DL) - $50 for retail box with Nero software

Monitor, keybord, mouse, speakers
07/27/2005 EDIT: Ok, I caved in and bought a Dell 2405FPW 24" flat panel. The panel itself is manufactured by Samsung, and is very good (maybe not quite as good as the SIPS panels from LG Phillips, but darn close). It's larger than its closest competition by an inch, and I got it with an internet coupon for $803 and free shipping. I couldn't say no. Now I'm definitely going to need that new-gen video card, to push Vanguard at 1920x1200. :D

For keyboards and mice, I don't think I'll be "upgrading". I use a microsoft trackball explorer (yes, I'm one of three gamers in the world who use a trackball) and it works great. I might go after a keyboard that's a little quieter than the one I have now, to quiet complaints from my wife about my heavy-handed typing, but I don't see myself spending more than about $50 on anything.

I use a fairly high-quality set of stereo headphones, from Panasonic. I'll be sticking with those, so I can enjoy my music or gaming without bugging the rest of the household.


So, currently that's what I'm looking at getting. Here's a summary -
Windows XP Pro SP2
Athlon 64 X2 4400+
ASUS A8N-SLI Premium, Nforce4 SLI motherboard
2GB OCZ PC3200 DDRRAM dual-channel kit
Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 250GB SATA Hard drive
New-gen video card
Thermaltake Tsunami case
Antec TrupowerII 550W power supply
Samsung or NEC DVD DL burner


I'll keep you updated if I decide to make changes, and I'll certainly argue with...um, I mean discuss with...anyone who wants to make suggestions/comments/whatever.

[Heloisa]

Wow that looks great Fozzik!

I have the Antec Super Lanboy case /w a 480W trueblue PSU right now and love it! Going to use the same case and PSU with my next build too.

Gosh, thought I felt confident about what cpu to buy this fall (4000+), but now I'm not so sure hehe.

You bring up some very compelling points so I'm going to rethink about building a system around the X2 core.

It's VERY helpful to read your reasoning behind choosing each component.

Thanks Fozzik! :)

You have to post some benchmarks once it's built! :)


edit added: Have you decided which Hard Drive to go with?

[Merkeon]

Very nice, but i have a question about the CPU, it it really worth $500? I can understand Dual Core, but for the price and operating freq i dont think it should be that much, i got LGA775 520 2.8ghz for $170, 800mhz (200 lower then Athlon 64 X2 4200+), it doesnt support 64 bit though, but it can OC to 3.4ghz without much trouble, then again though i gues its because not many motherboards support it, but the one mobo that does support it with SLI, ASUS P5ND2-SLI Deluxe is said to be one of the best gaming motherboards, and runs off the LGA775.

[Fozzik]

In the case of current processors, you can't compare clock speed between AMD and Intel. Look at real world benchmarks, and you'll see...AMD processors do more with each clock cycle.

Are the Athlon X2's worth the price? That depends on a lot of things. I would say they are a bit overpriced right now...but they are new technology, and they are without a doubt the best performance option when it comes to dual-core, so the high price isn't surprising. Prices always come down, and once the low-end versions of the Athlon X2 come out (the 3800+ and 4000+ dual core are coming), there won't really be a reason not to get into dual-core if you are buying a new system. On the AMD side, you give up very little game performance on single-threaded games, and you gain the future...applications are only going to get more multi-threaded going forward. Also, if you multitask a lot, dual-core will make a big difference.

It's not really a question of "Is it worth it?", It's a question of "Is it worth it for you." Everyone is going to go dual-core eventually. It's a tough call right now since you can get better single-threaded game performance from a single core processor. Anyway, I've talked about this in other threads, I think...it's a never ending discussion. :D

edit added: Have you decided which Hard Drive to go with?

Oops! I forgot to write that in. :)
I'll add it to the original post. Thanks for reminding me. Some people might have wondered why the prices I quoted didn't add up to the total. =X

Edit: Added storage

[Merkeon]

The case you chose, it only has room for 2 fans correct? Ive been looking for a new case that has room for about 6 fans, i have 2 HD, 2 CD drives, but i cant seem to find any cases that have a good circulation, also i cant find any fans that are silent either :x

[Nólaquen]

I'll throw in a recommendation for the Antec Sonata case. I have three of them, they're so wonderful. :D Most quiet case I've ever (not) heard, and in true Antec fashion, building into it is very easy. It is also very sleek looking (piano-black glossy finish).

[Merkeon]

How can the case itself be quite o.o? Mine doesnt say anything to me >.> usualy just the fans screaming "CUT ME OFF".

[Fozzik]

I'll throw in a recommendation for the Antec Sonata case. I have three of them, they're so wonderful. Most quiet case I've ever (not) heard, and in true Antec fashion, building into it is very easy. It is also very sleek looking (piano-black glossy finish).

Yep, the Sonata and the Super Lanboy are actually very similar cases. The biggest differences are the exterior looks (I do like the Sonata's looks a little better), the fact that the Sonata comes with a power supply I think (I'd rather pick out my own), and the fact that the Sonata only comes with one fan (one of the reasons it's so quiet ;) ).

I know you can buy another fan and place it in the Sonata, but I'd rather just get a case that's already got two large fans installed. Plus the power supply thing... are what decided me on the Lanboy.

The case you chose, it only has room for 2 fans correct? Ive been looking for a new case that has room for about 6 fans, i have 2 HD, 2 CD drives, but i cant seem to find any cases that have a good circulation, also i cant find any fans that are silent either :x

Good circulation doesn't necessarily come from having lots of fans. Yes, the Lanboy has room for two case fans, but remember that the power supply has a fan (also 120mm), the CPU has a fan, the motherboard chip has a fan, and the video card has a fan.

To get the best cooling in a case, what you are looking for is just a consistant moving flow that brings in cool air from outside, and exhausts hot air back out. The individual device fans will take care of themselves best if they have a constant supply of fresh cool air to blow over their heatsinks.

You can get good airflow two ways. Higher rotation speed fans, or bigger fans. The faster they spin, the louder they are, so smaller fans have to be louder most of the time to push the same air as a larger fan.

One 120mm fan blowing into the case at the bottom front, and one blowing out at the top back, provides a nice "wind-tunnel" type effect which insures very few dead spots and keeps things cool. With 120mm (large) case fans, they can turn more slowly and push the same air...so the case is quieter.

When someone talks about a case being quiet, they are talking about the noise produced by the case fans, and the sound-deadening properties of the case itself (in other words, how much noise from the internal fans and hard drives and stuff escapes the case to bother your ears).

You shouldn't rely on the power supply fan as an exhaust from the case (many people do, though) because the power supply fans are meant to cool only one thing: the power supply itself. If you use the power supply fans as your only exhaust, you are blowing all the hot air from the case through the internals of your power supply. Not good. The power supply needs a supply of cool air just like all the other devices in the case.

[Heloisa]

Hey Fozzik, just out out of curiosity what monitor(s) do you have?

[Fozzik]

Check out the monitor/keyboard/mouse/speakers in the first post. Right now, I have a Samsung 955df. It's a very nice 19" CRT.

[Fozzik]

Just a little update... since I created this thread, prices are already dropping. Newegg has the memory I picked out for about $40 cheaper now (although at this exact moment they are out of stock). Also, the 7800GTX cards have begun to drop into a realm closer to reality...they just knocked about $60 off the price of the cards from just about every vendor.

I'm guessing the price on the 7800GTX will drop again around the time the 7800GT is released, possibly to $499...which actually starts to look very tempting considering the performance. Expect to see an even higher end version from Nvidia right around the time ATI releases their new card. Nvidia will probably call it the 7800 Ultra, it will be clocked higher (possibly MUCH higher), and very well might be paired with 512 MB of memory.

[Fozzik]

More changes... more updates. The saga continues, as it were. Check the original post if you're interested.

Hopefully pretty soon it will be time to pull the trigger, so I can stop spending so much time obsessing over every little choice.

[Nythrod]

Hey Fozzik,

I had thought at one time to build a computer with a friend. I've been told it's very simple, I'm generally familiar with most of the components (as in their purpose)...however, I'm simply worried I may forget something, or worse yet break it :P.

Could you add to this list if I forget something?
-Case
-Power Supply
-Motherboard
-Processor
-RAM
-Video Card(s)
-Sound Card
-Hard Drive
-DVD/CD-RW Burner drive (something that reads all/writes all)
-Floppy Drive (:P)
-Speakers
-Monitor
-Keyboard & Mouse

I figure it could save me quite a bit if I build one...but I still really don't feel comfortable doing it :/...but at the very least I could atleast use a custom built list to compare prices for a custom built PC from a company.

Thanks.

[Fozzik]

That looks like everything...don't forget a heatsink/fan for the processor, although that probably doesn't need to get mentioned since it's easy to get a retail box CPU that comes with it.

You can save money by building one, or you can spend the same money and get more performance than you could with a pre-built. It isn't hard to build a computer, if you're careful and learn everything you can ahead of time. It certainly isn't for everyone though...it does require a decent amount of...well...geekiness to be willing to put in the time and find out how things go together.

At some point, I'll be writing a how-to article on building a computer (most likely after I build mine so I can take pictures to illustrate the article). ;)

I'll do my best to cover all the common pitfalls and offer as many tips and ideas as I can when I write that article. Until then, I'm here for the asking.

[Yolos]

I almost want to pull out my checkbook now...look at these prices and its free shipping???

http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=120207&AFFIL=pg&NR=1

Thermaltake A1744 Venus12 Opteron & Athlon 64 Performance Cooler $33.00
110224 DFI Lan Party UT NForce4 Ultra-D Audio/GB-LAN/IEEE/PCI-E/SATAII/DDR/ATX 64 939 $129.00
ATI (Original) X850 XT Plantium Edition 256MB DDR3/8x-AGP/TV-Out/VIVO/DVI (OEM) $400.00
100762 Antec True550 ATX 12V 550W w/Gold Plated Connectors Power Supply $93.00
140328 2 GB (2 pcs 1GB) DDR (400) PC-3200 Corsair (Twinx2048-3200C2PT) (ETA 8/10) $304.00
AMD Athlon 64 3700+ 1MB 90nm Rev. E San Diego (939) $299.00
Western Digital 320GB SATA 8MB Cache 7200RPM (WD3200JD) $156.00 -10% off - $25coupon(SGJE-30CCHS) = $114

woah...All its missing is soundcard, case, p/s


btw got most info from slickdeals.net.

[Merkeon]

The 2gb of RAM is pretty pricey actualy, im guesing the CAS is really low, or your just getting ripped off. I have 2GB of Corsair DDR2 533 SDRAM (PC 4200) for $160, the CAS latency is 4, CAS latency is good anywheer around 1-3, 4 isnt to bad, cant really notice it.
EDIT: Ah i know now, your getting 1GB RAM cards instead of single 512mb. I never got 1GB cards, i only got 512 Dual Channel =/

[Fozzik]

1GB sticks are the better way to go (if you're after 2GB of RAM total)... The less sticks you have installed, the more stable and faster the motherboard can usually run them. For a dual-channel setup, two sticks is ideal...not that four wouldn't work, it probably would. It's just that with four, the level of complexity in timing everything goes up considerably, and the amount of power draw also goes up. Up until recently, many Athlon 64 motherboards would downclock the RAM if you put four double-sided DIMMS in, in order to increase stability. The most recent Athlon 64's (rev E) and the dual-core X2's have a revamped memory controller, and from what I've heard four sticks can now be run at full speed.

The $300+ price does seem a bit high...but Corsair tends to be pricey and doesn't necessarily have the best timings available. Corsair is a good name though, and is usually tested by most motherboard manufacturers to ensure stability.

Oh, and only filling two DIMM slots with RAM means that down the road you could go up to 4GB. :D

[Labyrrinth]

Ok... this thread needs renamed to Labyrrinth's New System :) :)

Thanks to Fozzik's neverending patience and guidance, I now have a new system. It's built and on top of it... it RUNS!!! :) :)

The specs are almost identical to the ones that Fozzik originally posted! I'm in love!! (with my computer ..)

Thank you so very much Fozzik, for everything :) :)

[Fozzik]

Your most welcome. I really hope it takes good care of you. Let us know if you have any problems or questions. Nothing like a happy new computer build guru! :D

[Fozzik]

In the interest of keeping this up to date (since I change my mind on some things every ten minutes :D ) I've set up a wish list at newegg, which is where I'm going to be buying from.

This link should show you the wishlist, if you are interested...

linky (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/WishList/WishShareShow.asp?ID=1639502&WishListTitle=Fozzik's%20Vanguard%20Machine)

I will keep it completely up to date as I change my mind. ;)

As always, feel free to comment, argue with, suggest, or make fun of any of my choices. I love a good discussion, and at this point I'm certainly not set in stone on almost any parts.

Except the case, which is no longer part of the wishlist because I already bought it.

[DarQueNess]

Nice top end system! I just built mine last year in november, I went with the Asus KN8NE deluxe 754 board, the AMD 3700 64 FX chip, the thermaltake 450 watt power supply, 2 gig kingston select ram, the gainward 5900 ultra vid card, 2 Seagate 80G hard drives, one DVD RW and a second DVD drive. I went the economy route since I tend to rebuild mine every 18 to 30 monthes.

[Spase]

In the interest of keeping this up to date (since I change my mind on some things every ten minutes :D ) I've set up a wish list at newegg, which is where I'm going to be buying from.

This link should show you the wishlist, if you are interested...

linky (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/WishList/WishShareShow.asp?ID=1639502&WishListTitle=Fozzik's%20Vanguard%20Machine)


Hey Fozzik,

Like the set up you're planning, I am working on something similar myself, but I have recently purchased a Mitsumi floppy drive you might consider instead of the NEC one you have there. It was about $22 when I got one a month ago from Newegg, but it has a built in 7 in 1 card reader. The 7 in 1 part takes a USB header while the floppy uses the regular floppy connection. Mine works great, and now I can use pretty much any storage media.

[Fozzik]

I'm guessing this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16821104104) is the one you're talking about?

Very cool idea, I've never scrolled that far down on the list of floppy drives...I figured they were all the same. :D

I've got an external card reader, plus my monitor has a 7-in-1 card reader in the side...but definitely something to look at for those who have digital cameras or just want a different way to store files/media.

[Spase]

Yup, thats it, and yup, got the wife a new camera and needed a reader since she requires me to do all the editing :eek: !

[Slide]

Well, i'm settling in to my new job - and money is less of an object now - but this is going to take a while to build out but here's my current thinking.

Shopping Cart (Prices in British Pounds)
DESCRIPTION QUANTITY PRICE COST REMOVE
AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 4400+ (Socket 939) - Retail (ADA4400CDBOX) (CP-127-AM)
£319.95 £319.95
Asus A8N-SLi Premium nForce4 SLi (Socket 939) PCI-Express Motherboard (MB-111-AS)
£104.95 £104.95
OCZ 2GB (2 x 1GB) PC3200 Dual Channel Platinum Series EL-DDR CAS2 (MY-057-OC)
£224.95 £224.95
Antec P180 Advanced Super Midi Tower Case - No PSU (Ca-039-AN)
£82.95 £82.95
XFX GeForce 7800GT Extreme Edition 256MB GDDR3 VIVO TV-Out/Dual DVI (PCI-Express) - Retail (PVT70G-UDF7) (GX-053-XF)
£234.95 £234.95
DELL Ultrasharp 2005FPW 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor - Midnight Grey (29082) (MO-000-DE)
£349.95 £349.95
Seasonic S12 500W Silent ATX2.0 Power Supply (CA-001-SS)
£64.95 £64.95
Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 NCQ 300GB ST3300831AS SATA 8MB Cache - OEM (HD-021-SE)
£96.95 £193.90
Akasa Serial ATA 100cm Silver Data Cable - Silver (CB-010-AK)
£4.95 £9.90
ArctiClean Thermal Material Remover and Surface Purifier - 60ml Kit (TH-000-AC)
£6.95 £6.95
Arctic Silver 5 Thermal Compound (3.5g) (AC-000-AC)
£5.50 £5.50
Enermax UC-A8FATR4 Multifunctional Panel (BB-000-EN)
£21.95 £21.95
Sony DWQ28ASV 16x16 DVD±RW Dual Layer ReWriter (Silver) - OEM (CD-042-SO)
£25.50 £25.50
Mitsumi FA 404M 7in1 USB 2.0 Floppy & Media Drive - Silver (HD-000-MI)
£14.95 £14.95
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS Edition - Retail (SC-032-CL)
£152.95 £152.95
Logitech Cordless Optical Desktop Rechargeable Black/Silver - OEM (KB-058-LG)
£29.95 £29.95
Microsoft Windows XP Professional x64 Edition - OEM (SW-022-MS)
£83.95 £83.95
Logitech Rumble Pad 2 Gamepad (GC-011-LG)
£17.95 £17.95
Logitech Z-2300 THX® Certified 2.1 200 Watts Speakers - Retail (SP-022-LG)
£82.95 £82.95
Everglide Titan Gaming Mat (GS-014-EV)
£14.50 £14.50

Subtotal £2,126.50
VAT £372.14
Total £2,498.64

I haven't shopped around on prices yet, and some of the smaller bits are just impulse choices. I'm going to get a Scythe Ninja cooler for the CPU as the P180 has enough airflow to run it passively. I'll get some Medusa SL-8790 headphones when they are in stock too.

[Heloisa]

Nice looking set up mate!

I used the exact same RAM and MB when putting my rig together. (big thanks to Fozzik too for all the helpful advice). I must say the Ausus board looks VERY sexy with the Cool-Pipe. :o

I'm not sure if the extra cache in the 4800+ is worth the added cost but I said F*** it and went with it anyway heh. ;)

You'll be one happy gamer once that system is built, congrats! :)

cheers

[Fozzik]

Looks like a pretty kick-ass machine. I'm not sure if there's really much use for going with Windows XP 64-bit yet, unless you like dealing with some driver issues (although I think for newer hardware it's probably pretty well squared away). There isn't too much performance benefit to be had in any desktop applications or games. Not a big deal though...I'll be interested in hearing how it goes when you do the build.

[Slide]

Yeah, I figured everything in there should have fairly stable 64bit drivers anyway, and rather than deal with upgrading from 32 to 64 i may as well just go 64 from the start - there doesn't appear to be any major performance boosts or losses to it, but it just feels better running a 64bit cpu in 64 bit mode :)

[Eclipse]

Hey Fozzik, how much would your system end up costing?
And what would you skim off if you could only spend 80% of that?
:p
I'm not all that computer savvy, and don't have mounds of cash at my beck and call, so getting as much info as i can is awesome.

-Eclipse

[Heloisa]

I recently finished buidling a new rig based on the "Fozzik Template" :) although I went with the 4800+.

Unfortunately Newegg or ZipZoomFly don't ship to Canada but you could try Tigerdirect, NCIX or Anitec. Also check out Bigfoot Computers for your cooling solution.

To skim off 20% you could swap out the video card for a 6800 series or an x800 series and mabye go with the 4200+ cpu?

[Eclipse]

And that would likely run you...how much cash?

-Eclipse

[Fozzik]

The system I've configured is hovering between $1800-$2000 USD. Things are steadily getting cheaper, of course...but as that happens I'll probably be increasing the speed of the hardware I buy, as opposed to letting the price go down.

With the changes Helo suggested, or something similar, you could easily get an awesome system for around $1500. Some more changes would be needed to get it down below that....but it is possible to build a decent gaming machine that will handle Vanguard for about $1000 (without monitor).

The longer you can wait, the farther your money goes. ;)

[Eclipse]

About $800 for you is $1000 for me, soooo about $2,200 - $2,500 CDN.
Hmm, gotta decide if I could afford that as a student. Have a kick-ass computer? Or have a vehicle? Or both, but neither is amazing...
Bah.

-Eclipse

[Fozzik]

It's possible to get a fairly kick-ass system for Vanguard for less than the $2k I'm planning on spending. I'm going a little bit overboard in a few areas...

Are you going to need a new monitor? Like I said, you're money is going to go farther if you wait until closer to Vanguard's release...you could certainly get a capable system on Vanguard's launch day for about $1500 US. In fact, you could probably do that right now.

[Eclipse]

My monitor's still good. It's a beast though, weighs like 30 pounds.
:D

Yah, still gotta wait and see what kind of student financing I get.

-Eclipse

[Heloisa]

Canada and BC Student Loans FTW! :)

[Eclipse]

No, not 4tw. 4TL completely.
I am now almost 3 weeks into my schooling and they still haven't sent me confirmation if i am even getting a loan or not.
If they decide 'no', then i have to drop out.

so wtf Canada? wtf Alberta? F U guys.

-Eclipse

[SirGillam]

I have a question. I am running a Amd 64 3000+ , 1 gig ram , with a 9600 128 mb Graphics card. I have been trying to put a new system together, but i dont really want to spend the money at the moment. I am wondering if i purchased the ATI 800x graphics card, if that would bring my system up to a decent lvl. I have a 300 watt power supplie, i read the card requires 300 watts, will this be to close?

Thank you

[Fozzik]

That power supply may work with an X800 card, but it is going to be a major limitation on future upgrades. You're going to want to start looking at replacing it with a good quality brand like antec, thermaltake, OCZ, etc. Probably something about 480W.

Honestly, your computer will play Vanguard as-is. A newer video card will increase your performance some...but it's not going to give you top settings in Vanguard. Mid-level settings and good resolution is probably what you'll be looking at...I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with that, just letting you know what to expect.

Is it an AGP slot on your motherboard, or PCI-Express? I'm guessing AGP. An X800XL AGP will probably be a nice upgrade for you, although I would wait a couple weeks. ATI will be releasing a new generation of cards around the first week of October, and it will be a complete line all the way from affordable lower-end cards up through super high end stuff. AGP versions of at least some of the cards should be released soon after.

All of them will be SM 3.0 Compliant...which means a much more advanced card as far as technology goes (with a lot more power to deal with future games that are heavy on shaders). The new releases will probably also cause old cards to either drop in price or be taken off the market, so look for a big shift all the way down ATI's product line. It's a smart thing to wait for.

[SirGillam]

Thank you very much.

i will wait on my purchase for sure. Thanks for the great work.

[Fozzik]

The time has come for me to pull the trigger. About 20 minutes ago, after clicking back through every item about 50 times, I hit the submit order button.

My final choices -

Athlon 64 X2 4400+
Currently at Newegg, this is going for only $50 more than the 4200. I think the double-sized cache may help in the future, so I went with it. I've talked about my reasoning for going dual-core, and for going AMD, so I'll keep this one short. ;)

Asus A8N-SLI Premium
I was really torn between this and the MSI board, but it finally came down to three things. One is the software SLI switch (not that I'll ever use SLI, but it's nice just in case). Two was the extra PCI-Express slots, the MSI doesn't have quite as good a layout in that department. Three was the passive cooling, I don't want to add additional noise when I don't have to.

BFG Nvidia Geforce 7800GTX (overclocked - 460/1300)
Not much to say here. It was time to buy, and ATI did not have a product available that was competitive price/performance-wise. This is a very solid chip from Nvidia that has been on the market long enough to be well tested, and also has had time for the price to settle. I think it's a great deal, especially considering the out-of-the-box overclock, and BFG's lifetime warranty and 24/7 phone support.

2x1GB sticks of OCZ RAM, PC3200, (2-3-2-5)
Good solid brand name, low timings, and 2GB of goodness.

Antec TruPowerII 550w (SLI certified)
I like the brand, the price is good, and it's got all the power I'll need. 2 12v rails with plenty of Amperage, and all the connectors for fancy things like PCI-E and SATA.

200GB Maxtor DiamondMax 10
7200RPM, 16MB cache, SATA150 with NCQ
These drives are great performers, and the price is outstanding.

I also went with an NEC DVD writer, and a Saitek Eclipse Keyboard (I'm not overly interested in the lighting, but all the reviews I've read say it's just a comfortable and very quiet keyboard).

I've already got the case and monitor, and I'll probably wait a bit to see if prices come down on soundcards. I'm going to get one of the X-Fi fatal1ity ones.

[Orlun]

Can you tell yet if its a boy or a girl? :)

[Spase]

Awesome Fozzik! I am probably going to have to wait for the after christmas sales for my new rig... ah well. Its just around the corner now!

Anyways.... How's it running?

[Fozzik]

I just clicked "submit order". I'll have to wait a few days... build the thing while taking lots of pictures for future articles... load software... then I can answer that. ;)

[Havelock]

I just clicked "submit order". I'll have to wait a few days... build the thing while taking lots of pictures for future articles... load software... then I can answer that. ;)

Congrats Fozzik! :D

[vekna]

Looks Great!
I actually logged in to tell you about a different MB choice, but I guess it's 3 hours too late for that =p

I was on Asus web site and found the A8N32-Deluxe.
According to Asus it's designed specifically for gaming, and is "True" SLI. On newegg, I noticed that the Premium and Deluxe are SLI but are set to x8 x 2 or x16 x 1, where as the 32-deluxe is x16 x 2.
Since you do not plan to go SLI right away it wont really matter.
I also noticed the 32-deluxe is not for sale on Newegg...

Congrats on the new system Foz, enjoy !

[Fozzik]

Yeah, I knew about the new SLI x16 chipset from Nvidia... not a big deal. Current SLI setups aren't coming close to maxing out the bandwidth on two 8 lane slots, so although it does add extra bling, the added bandwidth is fairly pointless. It might be useful in the future, but right now I'm guessing there would be no performance difference between the two at all.

The SLI x16 does come with a few other enhancements, I think better audio and maybe improved SATA controllers, but it is also brand new and not in mass production yet, which means it hasn't been around long enough for there to be lots of choices, and also the bugs/kinks have yet to be worked out of the new chipset. I know MSI and Asus have boards ready, and I'm sure more will follow...but this is the nature of the industry. There's always something better coming soon. It's best to weigh the choices, pick a time, and go with it.

Ideally, I certainly would have liked to wait a bit longer, at least to have the X1800XT as a choice...but I'm certainly not at all unhappy with my choices. It was time to buy.

[Alodar]

What was your final cost on all that Foz?

[Fozzik]

Let's see here...

The case (Thermaltake Tsunami, black with side window) was $70 at CompUSA.

From newegg, I purchased -

Athlon X2 4400+ ---- $526
Asus Mobo ---------- $167
2GB OCZ RAM -------- $257
BFG 7800 GTX ------- $489 (after $30 mail-in rebate)
Maxtor HDD --------- $83.25
Antec 550w P/S ----- $100
Floppy Drive ------- $8.49
NEC 16X DVD burner - $45
Saitek Keyboard ---- $47

Grand Total, including case - $1792.74
XP Pro - $141
Monitor - $803

Final total - $2736.74

I'll probably be getting the X-Fi soundcard soon... with is another $250 or something I think. *cringe* Anyway, not too bad overall, I don't think. :)

[Orlun]

Whats your reasons for still having a floppy drive? and would a memory stick work just as well?

[Fozzik]

Remembering the good ol' days mostly. ;)

A memory stick would work just as well for most things, the trick is whether or not the BIOS allows you to boot from it. I still boot from floppies for some things (like BIOS updates on some mobos, Norton Ghost, memtest86, etc) just because it's easy and cheap.

I could certainly use CD's, or various memory cards or sticks... I'm just old fashioned, I guess.

[Gurf]

Wow, thats almost the exact same setup as I'm looking at, been browsing around the past two weeks and came up with the same core system. Same CPU, same Mobo, 780 GTX (though I'm going with the Gainward golden sample version).

I'm not sure wether to wait out ATI's next card though. I'm not quite sure whern it's due as a matter of fact. Anyone have some info on this? What time schedual and what kind of impact it would have on the 780 GTX card?

Help would be apreachiated.

[Fozzik]

According to ATI, the X1800XT will be released on November 5th, with large quantities and full availability probably a week after that. ATI's track record lately for getting product on the market in quantity has left a lot to be desired... but if all goes well it should be about a month from being in most large online stores.

The X1800XT is a very nice card. It outperforms the 7800GTX in many games when anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering are enabled, not by a huge margin, but it is very competitive. It also will have 512MB of RAM, which should be more and more useful as newer games come to market (like Vanguard ;) ).

The downside is that it will likely be somewhere in the neighborhood of $50-$100 more expensive than the 7800GTX when it releases. I would say that within a month or so after the ATI branded card hits the market, we should start seeing cards from other manufacturers using the X1800XT chip...which may be cheaper and help push prices down.

Most people are also saying that the filtering and maybe even the anti-aliasing are better quality on the ATI card. Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong with either the 7800GTX or the X1800XT... both shine at extremely high resolutions and have plenty of horsepower.

[Orlun]

'cept for the 512 meg. Any idea when nVidia will bump up the ram on their cards?

[Gurf]

Thanks alot, very helpful information there.

[Fozzik]

Word is Nvidia has a 512MB 7800GTX in the works, which should be hitting soon. Going by their recent track record, I would expect it to be widely available, maybe right around the same time the X1800XT hits the market. ;) Competition is a great thing.

[Orlun]

Fozzik, heres my dell system specs. (I'm flameproof so Dell attacks bounce right off)


221-8765 Intel Pentium D 820 (2.8GHz) w/Dual Core Technology 1 311-5115 2GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz EA
310-5234 Dell USB Keyboard EA
320-4293 256MB PCI Express x16 (DVI/VGA/TV-out) nVidia EA NeForce 6800
341-1056 160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) EA
341-2457 No Floppy Drive Requested EA
420-4834 Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition,Service Pack 2


What's my weakest areas aside from the D820.

If it's video... do you think I can run a 7800 or one of the new ATI's without stressing the powersupply?

I think I have the same as this...http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsdt_400?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

[Alodar]

Orlun, I would say to go for the 7800 instead of hte 6800. Granted, it's a bit pricier, but for the performance jump, it's completely worth it. Also, the 7800 often actually uses LESS power than the 6800, as well as being faster.

[Fozzik]

What's my weakest areas?

The D820.

Oh, you said besides that. I would have a hard time not tripping over that one... it would be difficult to describe without showing you benchmarks exactly how bad a choice that processor is for gaming (compared to things that aren't that much more expensive).

At any rate, I've said my piece on that.

Dell generally is going to include the absolute minimum power supply they can (unless they've completely changed since I last dealt with their machines...which is possible). I would say if you want to go up to a 7800, do it from Dell. Although the 7800 cards do generally use less power than their counterparts from the 6xxx generation, If you get it from Dell as one package you can at least be sure it's all rated to work together... takes out some guesswork. Plus, if it breaks, you can just yell at them on the phone and get it fixed. ;)

You didn't mention RAM, the other stuff looks just fine (what could possibly go wrong with a keyboard, and a "no floppy drive"?) *laughs at self*

EDIT: wait a sec... I may be confused. Are you buying a new system from Dell? Or were you quoting the specs of the system you have right now?

[Orlun]

Crap, I deleted the line about the ram. I have 2 gig of 533mhz if I remember right.

Thats my system now. Its about 2 months old. I got it with the 6800 thinking I could upgrade that when prices on either the new ATI or the 7800's come down. Just want to know if my power supply can handle either.

Only looking to get a year out of the system.

[Fozzik]

Honestly, I don't know. maybe Dell would be able to tell you. If I had to guess, I would say you'd be ok to get a 7800-series...but it's not really a good idea to guess on this. Give them a call and they should at least be able to tell you the wattage/amperage of the power supply they gave you. Or... it might be printed right on the side of the power supply. You might be surprised by how "light" it is compared to what you typically see in home-built systems.

[vekna]

Fozz,

Hope you see this way back here. I didn't read thru all 7 pages but I was wondering if you have had time to get your system together?
I am curious because reviews on the Asus Premium are either: OMG GET THIS BOARD NOW, or Worst MoBo EVER.
Seems like everyone has 99% of the problems when it involves 3 things: Raid set ups, Ram probs, and Asus Firewal.

When it comes to drivers for mobo, do you / should you use the disc that comes with the mobo, or would univeral platform drivers from nvidia.com work just as well?

[Fozzik]

I put the computer together this afternoon. So far, everything is working great *knocks on wood*

I've had zero issues so far with the motherboard... everything was detected properly, although I did adjust the timings on the RAM a bit. I installed the Nvidia Network driver from the CD, since that's the NIC I'm using... so far it seems fine. I did not install the IDE driver, or the Nvidia Firewall.

The motherboard and CPU are running nice and cool (around 35c for both), and the mobo recognized the X2 4400+ properly right out of the box... no BIOS update needed.

[Xhar Moondi]

Very nice selection Fozzik, I have a friend who has put together something similar and is very happy with it. I'm very tempted to purchase one of those drives myself.

[jtoast]

Just pulled the trigger on my new system and came over here to compare it to your recommendations. Imagine my suprise when I discovered they were almost identical..lol.

The only difference between your new system and the one I just ordered (http://van.forums.thedruidsgrove.org/showthread.php?p=170499#post170499) is the powersupply.

[Fozzik]

Great minds think alike.

I know those PCPAC power supplies are at the top of everyone's list... sort of the cadillac of power supplies, I guess. The specs on them do seem very good, but I just couldn't see paying double price when I've always had great results with Antec. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Mine is just about completely up and running now (I'm typing this on the new machine :D ), I'm very happy. It's going to take me several days to try and get everything set up the way I like it though... I always forget just exactly how I did certain software settings, and it takes a while to click around and figure it out again.

[Labyrrinth]

and the mobo recognized the X2 4400+ properly right out of the box... no BIOS update needed.

Lucky!! :) :)

[Slide]

Great minds think alike.

They certainly do, i'm putting in the order for my new system in a week or two and it's going to be very similar to yours:

Antec P180 Case
Seasonic 600W PSU
2GB OCZ RAM
AMD X2 4400+
2* BFG 7800 GT
300GB Seagate HD
Asus Premium SLI board
Dell 2005 FPW screen
Various aftermarket fans/heatsinks

Thinking about watercooling the gfx cards and cpu.

[Xhar Moondi]

Fozzik, hope you got this: http://promotions.newegg.com/AMD/Nero/101905/index.html?CMP=BAC-hardcop

[Fozzik]

Nero came with my DVD burner. hehe... I didn't really need that.

But yeah, I feel cheated. I did't get it. I did get a free Y-split power cable though...that was really useful.

I also got a free t-shirt with the graphics card. Free t-shirts rock.

[vekna]

Can anyone tell me where you find "recommended" ram lists for the Asus-premium?
I want to use Corsair XMS 2x512 DDR, unbuffered dual channel kit.
Model Twinx1024-3200C2PT
Will purchase a second kit of this after system in built.

[Xhar Moondi]

This isn't a gimped version of Nero though, it's the actual latest and greatest release. I'm so tempted to do the deal, but I was planning on waiting a little longer, though that chip is really hot...and so is the Nero.

[Slide]

Can anyone tell me where you find "recommended" ram lists for the Asus-premium?
I want to use Corsair XMS 2x512 DDR, unbuffered dual channel kit.
Model Twinx1024-3200C2PT
Will purchase a second kit of this after system in built.

You might want to reconsider this. The Athlon performs best with just 2 sticks of RAM, adding an extra two causes it to drop the timings down - so your better off going with 2 * 1GB.

[Breogan]

You might want to reconsider this. The Athlon performs best with just 2 sticks of RAM, adding an extra two causes it to drop the timings down - so your better off going with 2 * 1GB.
Only if any of the modules is double sided (has chips on both sides of the stick). Venice, San Diego and the dual cores have improved memory controllers that support 4 single sided memory sticks without dropping speed.

On the other hand, I'd go for 2x1Gb to leave some room to upgrade in the future, just in case :)

[Fozzik]

Actually, the rev E cores and dual cores will support 4 double-sided sticks without lowering the clock. The only change that needs to be made is going from a 1T to 2T command rate.

With that said, it is better to get to 1GB sticks if you are planning to have 2GB of RAM, not only because it allows the faster command rate, but also because you'll have two slots left over for later. ;)

[waldo36]

I was looking at your system, look's like it's going to be a beast.

Was thinking, if you don't like most ATX case's, that you should check out the offering's by Lian Li.

They have some of the most appealing internal's of any case that I have seen personally.

:eek:

-edit-

Ah, continued reading the thread and saw that I had skimmed over the case. Can't blame you, good price.

=p