Disciple Bug/Tweak List

[Sickpuppy]

This buglist will not be updated as of 14th April '07. Go here (http://forums.tentonhammer.com/showthread.php?t=13675) for the new, maintained, disciple, buglist thread.
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There's so many scattered threads about disciple bugs and things that need to be tweaked so I wanted to compile one big thread about it all.

The list is split into bugs that need to be fixed and tweaks that should be implemented starting with the most important first. Bugs are fact and tweaks are opinion so obviously if a lot of people disagree with or want something added to the tweak list I will change it. Hopefully people can just post in here when they find something wrong with the class instead of making a new thread about it.

Updated: 13:14 GMT 05th Apr '07

Bugs:

Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect heal over time spells.
Soul Cutter - The threat reduction effect is either very small or non-existant.
Baiting Strike - Seems to have very little or no effect.
Feign Death - Sometimes when multiple mob Feign Deaths succeed you will be stuck in combat and some of the mobs will camp your corpse with a combat style animation.
Touch of Woe - When this skill is used it reduces the amount of XP gained when the mob dies (presumably because the source of the damage is the mob instead of the disciple).
Paralyzing Touch - This skill doesn't always light up after feint even when you have aggro on the mob. It always lights up when no other person is on the mob's aggro list.
Paralyzing Touch - Requires a weapon to be equipped.
Paralyzing Touch - Rank 2 stuns for 60 seconds (tooltip says 40s).
Paralyzing Sweep - Only stuns one mob.
Endowment of Balance - Deals damage back to the attacker but does not reduce the attackers attack by 50%.
Dissonant Bonds - When they are resisted, the player side of the bond still works but the mob side does not. This means that Leech's Grasp still gives the player endurance for example, but the debuff won't be active on the mob. It also means if a dissonant bond like Touch of the Ox is resisted it needs to be cancelled before it can be recast again. The resist message also displays twice in floating damage text.
Blooming Ridge Hand - Attacking a mob with the BRH debuff active on it causes the mob to generate heal aggro instead of the disciple. This can cause NPC wars.
Dissonant Bonds - Multiple bonds can sometimes be cast on the same target (I've managed up to 3). It's very buggy and unpredictable, though. Sometimes multiple bonds will cast on the same target fine, other times you get "You are already looting" messages. No condition or reproducability for casting 2+ bonds has been confirmed.
Finisher Bar - Sometimes a skill becomes available but you won't be able to see it on the finisher bar. One cause is when you try to cast an available advanced finisher during global cooldown. This causes the finisher bar to reset and not display the advanced finisher.
Astral Walk - Not all dungeons are flagged as dungeons for Astral Walk.
Blessed Wind and Concordant abilities - The heal amount is affected by crit. This can make the same level blessed wind tick for 50, 100, 200, 400 etc. It seems to be a seperate crit roll from the damage part.
Blessed Wind - Blessed Wind's heal part has infinite range within a chunk.
Dodge - Increases your chance to dodge _to_ 100%, instead of _by_ 100%(depending on level). Also stops auto-attack and gets cancelled when any ability is used.
Feign Death - FD cancels when you leave groups.
Counter-attacks - Sometimes when you dodge the counter-attack skills don't light up. They can still be cast even though they are greyed out on the client.
Shurikens - Always do the same damage regardless of what shuriken is equipped.
Wisdom of the Grasshopper - This buff doesn't give a buff status message in chat windows.
Symbol of Unity - Disappears if somebody uses it in combat, this should give an error message instead. Res stones also don't work when the player is in a different chunk (and they get consumed trying).
Shurikens - Get used up after you equip another type of shuriken. You can put them in ranged or ammo, however if you move them from one to the other there's a good chance it will start using them. (unconfirmed)
Falling Petals - Using a Staff as your main weapon, the animation for Falling Petals is either broken or unfinished.
Mindless Clutch - The tooltip is wrong. It says 576 energy every tick instead of 576 energy total (~38 per tick).
Touch of Woe - The tooltip isn't very clear. It says the mob takes damage on every attack, which makes it sound like it takes damage when someone attacks it rather than when it attacks someone.


Tweaks:

Temporarily removed.

[Zind]

Falling Petal does buff incoming heals, at least on yourself, but that buff is buggy in that it doesn't always give additional healing during its 5min duration.

The heal from Blessed Wind seems to be able to crit, though looking through my combat log it does not mention something like "critical heal for xxx". Using BW3, I see it heal for 74, 110, or 220 (the crit heal is pretty rare though).

Also, under Weapon Specialization, we have a listing for Hand Wraps, but currently no weapon will raise that skill. The Ulak / Claws works just fine though.

[Dashel]

Blessed wind seems to not heal even ourselves sometimes. I cant pinpoint when or why. This is a recent issue.

What is Keen Eye III and why did I just get it randomly today?

[Sickpuppy]

Falling Petal does buff incoming heals, at least on yourself, but that buff is buggy in that it doesn't always give additional healing during its 5min duration.

Been testing it for the past hour or so and haven't managed to see any difference in my heals with and without the buff. I've changed it in the list anyway. Either way it's buggy as hell.

[Sickpuppy]

Blessed wind seems to not heal even ourselves sometimes. I cant pinpoint when or why. This is a recent issue.

What is Keen Eye III and why did I just get it randomly today?

It's learnt from mobs. It's a really nice skill but I think it's a bug that we can get it. There is lots of other skills you can learn from mobs at the moment too.

[QuidProQuo]

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

[Sickpuppy]

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

There's no doubt that disciple damage is broken at the moment. As of level 32 I haven't found anyone who can outdamage me (obviously within reason - i'm talking about damage in an average fight). As a healer class that's pretty messed up. The ultimate fix for our damage problems would be:
Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

[Dashel]

I am hoping to start parsing my damage tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I can get a similar level monk to as well.

[flyingpenguin]

There's no doubt that disciple damage is broken at the moment. As of level 32 I haven't found anyone who can outdamage me (obviously within reason - i'm talking about damage in an average fight). As a healer class that's pretty messed up. The ultimate fix for our damage problems would be:
Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

Now I am only lvl 14 at the moment, but most of the dps classes can take down mobs much faster than I can (as it should be). Disciples have a huge advantage in survivability, but we are healers....that should be true for all healers. In other words, we should be able to last a long time, much longer than dps classes. DPS = quick, high damage fights...if the fight goes on too long...they lose. Healers = slow burning fights.

There is another thread that goes quite a bit into detail as to why the crit rates for unarmed and armed should not be changed. It basicially boils down to right now you have a choice between armed and unarmed.

If you go armed, your dps will go up because of the additional crits. If you choose armed, then you get stats from the weapon. If you make the dps for unarmed the same as armed, then you have effectively removed the choice. Why choose to go bare handed when I can get the same goodies + bonuses to my stats?

I do not think that this should be changed at all. Weapons are best when you are in a group situation and you don't need dps. When solo, drop the weapon and go crazy.

If, after number crunching, devs find that the dps of a disciple is too high, then fine, lower our total dps (it should be on par with the other healer classes), but don't remove the difference between unarmed and armed. I like that both are viable.

[Dashel]

I agree with this:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

Baseline Disciple damage should lower than a monk by a good bit. If a monk is 100, disciple should be maybe a 70-80. From there I would like to see a choice: DPS Disciple, Healer Disciple, Well rounded utility Disciple.

[garath]

Tweaks:


Harmonious Bonds should be castable on yourself - otherwise more of our spells useless in a solo situation and some of them useless in general (Inner Focus).
Weapons aren't an option because they have 1/10th of the damage output of bare hand fighting due to their relative low crit rate. The fix should be a balance of decreasing barehand damage and increasing weapon damage (via decereasing finisher damage and barehand crit rate and increasing weapon crit rate.)
We need many more endowments. Maybe one for threat reduction? One for damage? One that gives a Jin bonus?
Endowment of Mastery doesn't last long enough for the time and endurance cost to cast it.
Endowment of Balance has a very small effect for the time and endurance cost it takes to cast it.
Counterattacks cost far too much endurance. It seems like they're meant to be "bonus" attacks but 28 endurance for a low damage counterattack (Sun Fist) is way too high.
Favor of the Crow II has a very small increase over Favor of the Crow I. It should be more effective.
Touch of Woe's effect should be significantly increased or changed (it's useless when we have Leech's Grasp).
Celestial Breeze has a very long cast time and high mana cost. One of these should be reduced slightly.


Great bug list. I would also add that we no longer see Blessed Wind as a maintained spell (we used to prior to the energy fix) so if and when it ever works on someone else we will not know what the remaining duration is. Also, when effects like Touch of Woe or Leech's Grasp are resisted, it is still considered maintained but its not doing anything. We currently need 2 jin just to toggle it off (though I don't believe it USES the 2 jin to toggle off) until we can try it again.

For your tweaks list:

Harminous bonds - I think they are fine the way they are (bugs aside). Casting them on ourselves is a little counter-intuitive to the term 'bond'. Also, its not a bad thing at all to have group-only spells. We already solo very well. We really don't need bonds to work solo also.

Weapons and damage - I've talked about the weapons and crits in the Disciples and crits thread. Not up for typing it again. Needless to say I disagree with the need to adjust the damage of either significantly.

I agree with the rest of what you've said. Especially your thoughts on endowments.

[garath]

Also something else I've noticed is with FD. It doesn't seem to wipe aggro? With 1 or 2 exceptions it seems that the mobs that were attacking me when I feigned will either wander away or camp my corpse but ALL of them will reaggro and come running when I stand back up (usually 1 min later so I can FD again if necessary). Bug? Intentional?

[Sickpuppy]

What do people think about Disciple damage?

I personally think its fine but a lot of people think its too high.. maybe lower critical strike damage some and increase average damage? This way we end up doing less damage overall but no so much that we can't defeat anything anymore.. but like I said before I personally think we are fine as far as damage goes.

What does everyone else think?

I agree about endowments they are by far the coolest part about playing a Disciple I think we should have more of them to manage.

Also something else I've noticed is with FD. It doesn't seem to wipe aggro? With 1 or 2 exceptions it seems that the mobs that were attacking me when I feigned will either wander away or camp my corpse but ALL of them will reaggro and come running when I stand back up (usually 1 min later so I can FD again if necessary). Bug? Intentional?

Mobs have only reaggrod me if I'm within aggro range when I get up. Also, Leech's Grasp still works as normal even if it's resisted. I'm not sure about Touch of Woe as I never use that bond.

[Demonix]

I disagree with the ideas of:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is. Having a huge crit rate on fists won't help nearly as much without being able to spam Falling Petal all the time and the DPS on fists would drop to around that of weapons, and most likely lower. Finisher damage could be left the same but since it would be more spread out that damage would be more in line. Also, having a lower crit rate with weapons but higher average DPS would make the weapons a much more viable option without nerfing finisher dmg for weapon wielders.

In beta almost all rangers used daggers because they could spam Windsong. They were doing more damage than intended and there was no reason to use any other weapon in their mainhand. Now that there is a 1min recast on Windsong you see a LOT more rangers using swords in their mainhand because critting more often but doing less dmg with a dagger no longer helps them. It's ONE change that would fix almost everything that is wrong with disciples' damage and would balance out all of their weapon choices.

[Sickpuppy]

Weapons and damage - I've talked about the weapons and crits in the Disciples and crits thread. Not up for typing it again. Needless to say I disagree with the need to adjust the damage of either significantly.

Don't get me wrong, I love our dps just as much as anyone else - I just don't think the highest DPS class in the game should be a healer. A Monk, for example, is like a disciple without heals. Why should Monks do lower damage than Disciples? Sorcerers are meant to (as in most games) have the highest burst DPS. So why is it I out DPS them? Either we do too much damage or every other class is gimped. I'd rather have our damage straightened out now than have the devs nerf us into uselessness in 2 months when every other class complains about our DPS.

[garath]

Mobs have only reaggrod me if I'm within aggro range when I get up. Also, Leech's Grasp still works as normal even if it's resisted. I'm not sure about Touch of Woe as I never use that bond.

I have been very far away and had mobs reaggro me. For example, I ran out of a dungeon using sprint and my racial 10 seconds of dodging, I got outside and quite a bit away from the dungeon before I was about to die so I feigned. I waited almost 2 minutes (I got a drink). Only one mob was left on me but when I stood up I incured aggro from another 4 mobs in the dungeon.I found a couple posts in General about monks having the same issue so I suppose its a general FD thing.

Are you sure Leech's grasp is still working even when it is resisted? One, I don't see any benefit from it (where I can definately see a benefit when it lands) and two, when the fight ends it doesn't break. However, if it isn't resisted it breaks when the mob dies like its supposed to.

[garath]

Don't get me wrong, I love our dps just as much as anyone else - I just don't think the highest DPS class in the game should be a healer. A Monk, for example, is like a disciple without heals. Why should Monks do lower damage than Disciples? Sorcerers are meant to (as in most games) have the highest burst DPS. So why is it I out DPS them? Either we do too much damage or every other class is gimped. I'd rather have our damage straightened out now than have the devs nerf us into uselessness in 2 months when every other class complains about our DPS.

Well damage with fists vs weapons was the focus of my arguement in the other thread.

However, damage vs other classes: Honestly the only class I can speak with authority on is bard since I duo with one pretty regularly. He outdamages me. If we each take the same mob type and start attacking, he'll kill his mob when mine has a quarter left. Perhaps that is a little much considering we are a healer. The only fix I would suggest is like Demonix suggested - put Falling petals on a 1 min refresh like concordant hand. Lowering our damage too much will put us in a poor state vs the other healers. We have few buffs, no ranged casting ability and poor utility. Melee damage and FD is what sets us apart from the other healing classes.

[flyingpenguin]

I disagree with the ideas of:

Slightly decrease unarmed crit rate.
Slightly increase crit rate with weapons.
Slightly decrease finisher damage.

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is. Having a huge crit rate on fists won't help nearly as much without being able to spam Falling Petal all the time and the DPS on fists would drop to around that of weapons, and most likely lower. Finisher damage could be left the same but since it would be more spread out that damage would be more in line. Also, having a lower crit rate with weapons but higher average DPS would make the weapons a much more viable option without nerfing finisher dmg for weapon wielders.

I don't think I could disagree with this more...if hands are equal in damage to weapons, why would anyone ever choose to go unarmed?

Right now there is a reason to do both. Unarmed for solo, armed for groups.

Also, in reply to another post, I have grouped with several monks and they hands down whup their targets faster than I do (as they should). We are definitely no the highest dps in the game (and again we shouldn't be).

[Sickpuppy]

One thing that I have mentioned before will fix all of this. Add a 1min recast to Falling Petal and leave the rest as it is.

I don't even use falling petal any more. You get a much better finisher at a little later level (30 i think) called palm of discord (400% weapon damage + 269-287). It doesn't trigger white lotus but it gives a better damage output and reduced endurance use by using it instead of falling petal. I don't think your "fix" would make any difference really.

[Sickpuppy]

Right now there is a reason to do both. Unarmed for solo, armed for groups.


I've never used weapons for more than 5 minutes during my time playing this game and I group 90% of the time. There really is no point at the moment.

[Viktery]

My Bug list - Tweaks.


Astral Walk - Doesnt seem to work anywhere. I tried in the Hollows when a groupmate fell off of a high house, he was 3 levels down, tried recalling him and all I get is "This spell is used for dungeons etc etc, not in a area like this".
I tried in the Hive...same thing. I REALLY would like this fixed.

Those are the only 2 dungeon esque type areas I have been at thus far and cant use the spell. Seems broken to me.
Personally I think Astral Walk should be useable anywhere in the world. Will be great for when group mates die on a quests far away, adds a little bit of utility for us.

Harmonious Bonds - Agreed with the top, should be castable on self.

Reincarnate - I dont know if its just this version of it but I find only being able to cast on groupmates a little annoying. Id like to sometimes just rez someone who died. I need to become leader of group or get my leader to add him. Then remove him, and sometimes your in a dungeon or a long quest, and all in all a little annoying.
Id like to see it just be castable on anyone -
Bug - No animation for Reincarnate, no glowy effect either.

Falling Petals - No text effect sometimes, or sometimes I get the text effect many seconds before he even begins the animation.

[garath]

Reincarnate - I dont know if its just this version of it but I find only being able to cast on groupmates a little annoying. Id like to sometimes just rez someone who died. I need to become leader of group or get my leader to add him. Then remove him, and sometimes your in a dungeon or a long quest, and all in all a little annoying.
Id like to see it just be castable on anyone -


It is castable on anyone. I have res'd a number of people not in my group.

[garath]

I don't even use falling petal any more. You get a much better finisher at a little later level (30 i think) called palm of discord (400% weapon damage + 269-287). It doesn't trigger white lotus but it gives a better damage output and reduced endurance use by using it instead of falling petal. I don't think your "fix" would make any difference really.

Ok.. refine that statement to at a 1 min refresh to ALL finishers. Adjusting the refresh timer on finishers would DEFINATELY reduce our damage output. Significantly.

[Sickpuppy]

Astral Walk - Doesnt seem to work anywhere. I tried in the Hollows when a groupmate fell off of a high house, he was 3 levels down, tried recalling him and all I get is "This spell is used for dungeons etc etc, not in a area like this".
I tried in the Hive...same thing. I REALLY would like this fixed.

Those are the only 2 dungeon esque type areas I have been at thus far and cant use the spell. Seems broken to me.
Personally I think Astral Walk should be useable anywhere in the world. Will be great for when group mates die on a quests far away, adds a little bit of utility for us.

Astral Walk works in most of the dungeons I've done. There is a few that it doesn't work in but these are mainly the very low level ones (level ~10). I've added this to the list. Also I don't think there's any chance of the devs changing it to work anywhere in the world as this screws up the whole idea of no instant travel. The closest thing we could see to that would be that it works anywhere within a chunk.


Reincarnate - I dont know if its just this version of it but I find only being able to cast on groupmates a little annoying. Id like to sometimes just rez someone who died. I need to become leader of group or get my leader to add him. Then remove him, and sometimes your in a dungeon or a long quest, and all in all a little annoying.
Id like to see it just be castable on anyone -

It is castable on anyone.

Ok.. refine that statement to at a 1 min refresh to ALL finishers. Adjusting the refresh timer on finishers would DEFINATELY reduce our damage output. Significantly.

1min refresh would be a little over the top imo. I think 30 seconds would be okay though.

[Wroth]

Ok.. refine that statement to at a 1 min refresh to ALL finishers. Adjusting the refresh timer on finishers would DEFINATELY reduce our damage output. Significantly.

I have to agree with garath here. Having tried out a Goblin Disciple, I was in shock at how easy (and quickly) I was able to solo. Notable fights include being able to tank 2x level 10 2-dot monsters at level 6, non stop pulling them and being able to kill a level 14 3-dot monster at level 10, finishing with full health and mana. This is impossible (or nearly impossible) for my level 13 Shaman and level 13 Necromancer. The Shaman would run out of mana and the Necromancer could only pull it off if there was room to chain cast fear (while leaving him out of mana).

I really like the concept of Disciple, but the crit rate from unarmed combat is off the wall (to steal a phrase). I have had instances where I would proc Falling Petal 3-4 times in a row my crit rate was so high with unarmed combat. And never did I go more than 3 or so special attacks without proccing it (which is nothing since special attacks have no recast timer other than the global cooldown). The lack of cooldown on the finisher just allowed me to pretty much spam 300-500 damage attacks over and over. Top that off with the minimal casting cost of 10 endurance and wow, just wow.

The survivability of Disciples are truly amazing, but what is more amazing is the amount of damage I could dish out due to the constant critical hits and lack of finisher cooldowns. And to top it off, the Jin heals, low mana cost regular heals and that amazing Heal over Time (which occured every second it seems, vs regular ticks) really made me feel like a 1-man wrecking crew. My Shaman and Necromancer never stood a chance to compete (both outleveled the Disciple).

I would love to see all classes perform as well as the Disciple when it comes to damage dealing and/or survivability. However, I don't think that is what Sigil has in mind.

To sum it up, here is what I would recommend to try and keep Disciples in line with the rest of the classes:

1) Recast timer on finishers - being able to spam them over and over is crazy.

2) Critical hit rates on unarmed attacks - either lower crit hits by quite a bit, or put recast timers on finishers.

3) The Heal over Times - put them on ticks vs every second. Forces players to use mana heals more often.

I know these suggestions will upset quite a lot of players, but the changes are sorely needed (in my opinion) to keep a balance in the game.

[garath]

I have to agree with garath here. Having tried out a Goblin Disciple, I was in shock at how easy (and quickly) I was able to solo. Notable fights include being able to tank 2x level 10 2-dot monsters at level 6, non stop pulling them and being able to kill a level 14 3-dot monster at level 10, finishing with full health and mana. This is impossible (or nearly impossible) for my level 13 Shaman and level 13 Necromancer. The Shaman would run out of mana and the Necromancer could only pull it off if there was room to chain cast fear (while leaving him out of mana).

I really like the concept of Disciple, but the crit rate from unarmed combat is off the wall (to steal a phrase). I have had instances where I would proc Falling Petal 3-4 times in a row my crit rate was so high with unarmed combat. And never did I go more than 3 or so special attacks without proccing it (which is nothing since special attacks have no recast timer other than the global cooldown). The lack of cooldown on the finisher just allowed me to pretty much spam 300-500 damage attacks over and over. Top that off with the minimal casting cost of 10 endurance and wow, just wow.

The survivability of Disciples are truly amazing, but what is more amazing is the amount of damage I could dish out due to the constant critical hits and lack of finisher cooldowns. And to top it off, the Jin heals, low mana cost regular heals and that amazing Heal over Time (which occured every second it seems, vs regular ticks) really made me feel like a 1-man wrecking crew. My Shaman and Necromancer never stood a chance to compete (both outleveled the Disciple).

I would love to see all classes perform as well as the Disciple when it comes to damage dealing and/or survivability. However, I don't think that is what Sigil has in mind.

To sum it up, here is what I would recommend to try and keep Disciples in line with the rest of the classes:

1) Recast timer on finishers - being able to spam them over and over is crazy.

2) Critical hit rates on unarmed attacks - either lower crit hits by quite a bit, or put recast timers on finishers.

3) The Heal over Times - put them on ticks vs every second. Forces players to use mana heals more often.

I know these suggestions will upset quite a lot of players, but the changes are sorely needed (in my opinion) to keep a balance in the game.

The only problem I have with your post is that you are suggesting Disciple balancing based on our SOLO ability. This is a group based game. Balancing a class on how well it solos when 80% of the world content is based on grouping is a death sentance.

Some classes are going to solo better than others. Its a fact. In EQ it was necros and druids. In Vanguard it appears to be the healing classes. While I can see some tweaking of damage through a refresh on finishers (30 seconds is probably a good number), I do not endorse any further lowering of either our damage output or our healing.

While we may be some of the better soloers in the game, I feel our group contribution is pretty close to being right where it should be. The ability to deal some damage and heal from three different pools - jin, endurance (if they ever fix blessed wind) and energy - distinguishes us as a healing class. We don't buff, we do damage and heal. Reducing either of those much because we solo too well would cripple our group contributions.

[Wroth]

The only problem I have with your post is that you are suggesting Disciple balancing based on our SOLO ability. This is a group based game. Balancing a class on how well it solos when 80% of the world content is based on grouping is a death sentance.

Some classes are going to solo better than others. Its a fact. In EQ it was necros and druids. In Vanguard it appears to be the healing classes. While I can see some tweaking of damage through a refresh on finishers (30 seconds is probably a good number), I do not endorse any further lowering of either our damage output or our healing.

While we may be some of the better soloers in the game, I feel our group contribution is pretty close to being right where it should be. The ability to deal some damage and heal from three different pools - jin, endurance (if they ever fix blessed wind) and energy - distinguishes us as a healing class. We don't buff, we do damage and heal. Reducing either of those much because we solo too well would cripple our group contributions.

Well, my Disciple was soloing group content. ;) The point I was trying to make was, the Disciple was in the top tier for dishing out damage from all of the constant criticals and spamming of finishers. Not only that, but being able to heal like a champ as well. Who needs a Shaman or Necromancer or any number of other classes?

Anyways, if a level 10 Disciple can take on a level 14 3-dot monster no problem, imagine what a group of 6 Disciples could do? Each contributing substantial damage, each being able to heal enormous amounts of damage. Granted in specific scenarios where the pull contains 5+ monsters (where crowd control is required) or having to fight a 6-dot boss (where the extra armor is required), but overall Disciples are beasts in their own right, more so than any other class out there. They have amazing damage and amazing survivability with all of their healing potential.

I would just like to see some sort of balance with Disciples. Right now they seem to have the best of both worlds, great damage and great healing.

[Sickpuppy]

Well, my Disciple was soloing group content. ;) The point I was trying to make was, the Disciple was in the top tier for dishing out damage from all of the constant criticals and spamming of finishers. Not only that, but being able to heal like a champ as well. Who needs a Shaman or Necromancer or any number of other classes?

Anyways, if a level 10 Disciple can take on a level 14 3-dot monster no problem, imagine what a group of 6 Disciples could do? Each contributing substantial damage, each being able to heal enormous amounts of damage. Granted in specific scenarios where the pull contains 5+ monsters (where crowd control is required) or having to fight a 6-dot boss (where the extra armor is required), but overall Disciples are beasts in their own right, more so than any other class out there. They have amazing damage and amazing survivability with all of their healing potential.

I would just like to see some sort of balance with Disciples. Right now they seem to have the best of both worlds, great damage and great healing.

Your disciple was also level 10, which isn't really high enough to form an opinion that involves nerfing the class across all levels. For example, rogues are good at lower levels, but around level 30 they can't even solo even con 2 dots. Just because classes do one thing at level 10 doesn't mean it's the same up to 50.

Also, I think the class was designed to have good suvivabilty with average damage. The fact that you could tank a level 14 3 dot at level 10 is a feature of the class imo. It's the damage that's off balance at the moment. That said - if it was me designing the class I'd give it toggleable stances or permanant fighting styles which could sway the class to a more dps or heal based class depending on preference.

[Wroth]

Your disciple was also level 10, which isn't really high enough to form an opinion that involves nerfing the class across all levels. For example, rogues are good at lower levels, but around level 30 they can't even solo even con 2 dots. Just because classes do one thing at level 10 doesn't mean it's the same up to 50.

Also, I think the class was designed to have good suvivabilty with average damage. The fact that you could tank a level 14 3 dot at level 10 is a feature of the class imo. It's the damage that's off balance at the moment. That said - if it was me designing the class I'd give it toggleable stances or permanant fighting styles which could sway the class to a more dps or heal based class depending on preference.

You are right, I only have experience up to around 12 or so with Disciples. But check out this link: http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8915

Here is a quote from one of the posters:
"Well, I asked one of the highest discs on my server (Varking) at lvl 23 and he said that discs get about twice as powerful after lvl 22 though he didn't say why exactly that was (I'm assuming White Lotus Strike and upgrades to the other 2 finishers). Anyway, he said he can still solo same-level 4-dot mobs and finish the fight with full energy..."

It seems to me that the power of the Disciple just keeps going up and up as the player increases in level. So for at least the first half of the game, Disciples are greatly overpowered in my opinion.

As for the comment about a feature of the class, you mean to tell me that Disciples (and Clerics) are designed to be 'tank classes'? And they are great healers on top of it? And they can dish out top tier damage (at least Disciples can)? So they can fill the role of a tank, a damage dealer and a healer? Don't you think that is a bit much?

[Viktery]

It is castable on anyone. I have res'd a number of people not in my group.


Hmm ok. Its possible I was bugged. Because Id get a "Invalid Target" whenever I tried casting it on someone outside my group.

As for Astral Walk, they can simply put a Range on the Astral Walk. I mean just a small area, so when someone dies and releases, we can maybe bring em back to the group, say within 200km. That kind of thing.

But if it just doesnt work in lowbie dungeons, im fine with that.

[Viktery]

You are right, I only have experience up to around 12 or so with Disciples. But check out this link: http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8915

Here is a quote from one of the posters:
"Well, I asked one of the highest discs on my server (Varking) at lvl 23 and he said that discs get about twice as powerful after lvl 22 though he didn't say why exactly that was (I'm assuming White Lotus Strike and upgrades to the other 2 finishers). Anyway, he said he can still solo same-level 4-dot mobs and finish the fight with full energy..."

It seems to me that the power of the Disciple just keeps going up and up as the player increases in level. So for at least the first half of the game, Disciples are greatly overpowered in my opinion.

As for the comment about a feature of the class, you mean to tell me that Disciples (and Clerics) are designed to be 'tank classes'? And they are great healers on top of it? And they can dish out top tier damage (at least Disciples can)? So they can fill the role of a tank, a damage dealer and a healer? Don't you think that is a bit much?


DSCs arent tanks at all.
It seems to me that you want the DSC class to be the standard healer type that most mmorpgs use. Which isnt the case.
The DSC is one of the more unique classes brought out in a MMORPG. So shouldnt be compared to all others simply because they put them in a "healer class". Since they can fight, and are SUPPOSE to be able to fight.

I dont think people are getting it.
In the class description it says DSCs are suppose to be healers as well as well trained fighters.
Now if you had made this posts(even at a max of lvl 12) but also had ideas on what to do if they did take some of things u wanted out, then I might be persuaded to go along with something. But since you didnt, then the ideas you have are obsurd.
You dont nerf an entire class because you cant do something at the same level as another class. Its just not how it works, and doesnt make any sense.

And yes its easier for me to solo at low levels as a DSC, but I still need a group, the same as you to do any quests really pasts 11 or 12. Big quests that is. DSC being able to solo a 3 dot mob 2 levels higher doesnt really mean much unless I was ROLLING over them faster than you. It means nothing with your example as the DSC fighting 3 levels higher than himself isnt gaining anything while you pummel away on same level mobs twice as fast.

Sure I can kill a level 13 mob, 3 dot, but it takes long as hell and most of the time Im healing. Its simply outlasting the mob. Its not power.

A DSCs DPS compared to the offensive fighters/mages is a joke.

I just think your a little too impressed by lowbie DSCs....dont be. Because like all classes they all fall under the same balance tree at some point and time.
Also dont rule the difference between a good player and a bad player. Because my friend is a Druid and he rolls just about everything. Started the game 4 days later than me, he went from 1 to 11 in 2 days and soloing everything. Now I was waiting for him to catch me, but he surpassed me by a long shot in speed of gaining levels. Does that mean Druids are ########? maybe......but for this instance im gonna just say hes a better grinder than I am. Which is the actual case :)

Peace

[Sickpuppy]

You are right, I only have experience up to around 12 or so with Disciples. But check out this link: http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8915

Here is a quote from one of the posters:
"Well, I asked one of the highest discs on my server (Varking) at lvl 23 and he said that discs get about twice as powerful after lvl 22 though he didn't say why exactly that was (I'm assuming White Lotus Strike and upgrades to the other 2 finishers). Anyway, he said he can still solo same-level 4-dot mobs and finish the fight with full energy..."

It seems to me that the power of the Disciple just keeps going up and up as the player increases in level. So for at least the first half of the game, Disciples are greatly overpowered in my opinion.

As for the comment about a feature of the class, you mean to tell me that Disciples (and Clerics) are designed to be 'tank classes'? And they are great healers on top of it? And they can dish out top tier damage (at least Disciples can)? So they can fill the role of a tank, a damage dealer and a healer? Don't you think that is a bit much?

No I think you mistunderstood me. We have good survivability. There is a huge difference between survivability and tanking ability. eg. Feign Death increases survivability a lot, as do heals. Warriors have almost no survivability. What can they do if they pull too many mobs? Run. That's it.

As for tanking ability - at lower levels you won't see a huge diffference in the tanking ability of different classes as they all have very similar HP and mitigation/evade. Beyond level 25 the classes branch out a whole lot. I used to be able to solo 4 dots at lower level, now it's almost impossible, especially if the mobs have abilities. A lot of 4 dot mobs do 50% of my health in 1 hit whereas they hit our warrior for <20% (and let's not even go into his 40+% evade compared to my 19%). At level 22 our damage increases a lot due to upgraded finishers. Our high damage is one of the problems listed in the tweak section. I believe our survivability is a feature, not an imbalance.

[sezyboy]

The problem i see where this conversation of tweaking disciple classes is going is that we havent even fixed the things that are broken.

Im hesistant to cast any harmonious bonds as its jin hell to maintain it. The HoTs (Blessed Wind line) doesnt work to well on allies (1 tick instead of 7). Void hand....ooh did i just activate it...well i dont know nothing shows up graphically.

Bugs first. Tweaks/nerfs later.

[The.Yield]

The problem i see where this conversation of tweaking disciple classes is going is that we havent even fixed the things that are broken.

Im hesistant to cast any harmonious bonds as its jin hell to maintain it. The HoTs (Blessed Wind line) doesnt work to well on allies (1 tick instead of 7). Void hand....ooh did i just activate it...well i dont know nothing shows up graphically.

Bugs first. Tweaks/nerfs later.

INDEED. So much is broken right now as to be laughable. I don't know how bad-off some of the other classes are... But we have issues to say the least.

Art: Let me think what I can list that is boinked on the art front of things:

Void Hand 2+
Resurect
Astral walk
Our first buff (the +str +dex) (Hands just twinkly for a second lol)
Most of our move animations are retarded at best (namely kicks).
etc etc etc

I know art isn't on the top of the heep, but right now we are a visually boring class to play.

And of course we have all sorts of operational bugs as well with the buffs bonds breaking in seconds and other weirdness mentioned by the OP and others.

We are going to need a redux that is for sure.

[Tacit]

Bugs:
1. Equipping a Martial Sword bugs bare hand, after unequipping you will continue to hit based on your martial sword/2h skill. Relogging fixes this issue.
2. Knife Hand's tooltip is wrong. Leech Grasp's tooltip is wrong.
3. Touch of the Ox lowers mob's damage output too much, I can solo 5dot mobs by using it.
4. Soul Cutter is doing 5-6x the damage listed on the tooltip, therefore it is useless as a way to lower hate from a target.
5. Give disciples a way to skill evocation at a lower level. You think Im going to skill a new ability (Ra'Jin Flare) for 15hours before I actually have it land on something?
6. Dodge doesn't work on 80% of melee attacks and probably any special melee attacks of mobs.
7. Counterattacks don't always queue on passive dodge
8. You can maintain two types of bonds at any time, two harmonious, two dissonant, or one of each. This should only be one of each. You can only maintain one per target, though.
9. Touch of Woe does nothing. Not only does it not display any type of bonus damage, I have never noticed any type of bonus damage.
10. Symbol of Unity disappears if somebody uses it in combat, this should give an error message instead. I reported this a long time ago.
11. Kiss of Heaven does not heal the caster, whereas Gift of Anguish increases the casters damage by 10%.
12. White Lotus does not display correctly on the finisher bar.
13. Shuriken Damage is broken it does 1/3-1/2 of the listed damage on the Shuriken itself, thats neglecting any damage associated with the character stats.

Tweaks:
1. Dodge makes no sense, using any other ability with it up removes the buff. Therefore, it is useless when you are a solo healer in a group. I can not use it in combination with a heal to save myself.
2. La'Jin Flare is useless at all levels above 3, I heal for >2k what do I need a 474point heal for.
3. Ra'Jin Flare was bugged in beta, I bet you didn't fix it yet. It was doing 1/4-1/5 of the damage listed on the tooltip.
4. Feint makes no sense, also it only works when tanking the mob but can be cast (uses cooldown) at any time.
5. Extend the Group heal range, 10m compared to the single target heal range of 30? I'm paying much more mana for what again?
6. Kiss of the Slug III sucks, make it castable or make it longer lasting or just get rid of it.
7. Feign Death fades with NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO warning. Give it a buff timer or something.
8. Harmonious bonds should be self-targetable or longer lasting. They give little benefit for high cost/maintenance.


*Corrections*
1. Sun Fist is to pump up Jin not to do damage. It's the only ability that gives more than 1 Jin.
2. Shurikens get used up after you equip another type of shuriken. You can put them in ranged or ammo, however if you move them from one to the other there's a good chance it will start using them.
3. Harmonious bonds dispel randomly from people you are actively casting other types of spells on: heals, finisher buffs, etc. Normally, if you cast on a person and never target them again it lasts full duration.
4. Fallen Petal and White Lotus have NEVER had an effect for me, tested it so many times.

[Tacit]

solo buffs

solo kill

even con 5dots

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9595/screenshot00054xf2.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00054xf2.jpg)

This is terrible exp by the way, mostly due to the fact that the experience given for 5dots is horrendous.

[Tacit]

More Bugs:

1. Leech's Grasp does not immediately agro when used as a pulling spell.
2. No cooldowns refresh while logged off, however Jin fades during logged off periods.
3. Finishers/Counter Attack icons are fubar. Every few times I log on they've rearranged themselves.


Tweaks:
1. Timers missing from debuffs
2. Keen eye is OP
3. Make Endowment of Mastery a 5min buff
4. Blooming Ridge Hand ignores +healing/vitality, do you want this ability to be useless end game?

[QuidProQuo]

solo buffs

solo kill

even con 5dots

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9595/screenshot00054xf2.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00054xf2.jpg)

This is terrible exp by the way, mostly due to the fact that the experience given for 5dots is horrendous.

Thats EXACTLY the point I've tried to make in the past. Yes you soloed that but as you said the experience was terrible. So sure you can outlast that but it took you awhile and you didn't gain much from it because a full group could of killed several more of those in that same time and moved on to more for a higher XP gain and loot gain.

What could they do exactly? Nerf our damage? Well go ahead but that would just increase the length of the fight. Nerf our heals? Well go ahead but that would just hurt groups a LOT which is what the game should be balanced around.

I saw just do the -Crit Rate on hand to hand slighty +Crit Rate on weapons slightly and -Damage on finishers some. Infact I may prefer that so that people stop making more Disciples.

But please FIX the half of skills that are broken for us first!

[Shawnsan]

I have stopped playing my disciple until some of the bugs are worked out.

I NEED Harmony to work as stated so I can HoT at range for my puller I NEED BW to do its HoT for everyone so I can Blessed Wind someone that got momentary agro and move back to the tank and do my thing.

We also need SOMETHING to make weapon use viable.

As things stand NOW there is no point whatsoever to weapons for us as the increased crit rate on HTH is such that I can do a whole lot of specials more often.

[Sickpuppy]

9. Touch of Woe does nothing. Not only does it not display any type of bonus damage, I have never noticed any type of bonus damage.


I think I mentioned this somewhere before. The tooltip doesn't make a whole lot of sense on this skill. The skill actually forces the mob to take damage when it attacks you. The amount of damage it takes, however, is very small. The last time I tested this skill was around level 20ish and the mob took <1% damage every time it attacked me.


11. Kiss of Heaven does not heal the caster, whereas Gift of Anguish increases the casters damage by 10%.


I know the +10% damage buff appears on your own buff list, but does it actually increase your damage? I see no increase in the character window and can't see any increase in my floating damage text.


12. White Lotus does not display correctly on the finisher bar.


White Lotus replaces Falling Petal on the finisher bar when it's activated.


2. La'Jin Flare is useless at all levels above 3, I heal for >2k what do I need a 474point heal for.


I actually use this spell quite a lot. The reason it heals for so little compared to energy heals is that it's instant cast and has no energy/endurance cost. I agree though, it should have a slight heal increase.


3. Ra'Jin Flare was bugged in beta, I bet you didn't fix it yet. It was doing 1/4-1/5 of the damage listed on the tooltip.


I should hit 34 a little later today so I'll test it and update.


4. Feint makes no sense, also it only works when tanking the mob but can be cast (uses cooldown) at any time.


This makes sense to me. It's not a counter attack (therefore it's castable at all times) but it only affects you. Are you suggesting it's changed so it's only castable when you have aggro? Or are you suggesting it should remove the mob's ability to attack anyone for 1 second? I think this is fine the way it is personally.

[Laiboch]

In all honesty the Crit system is just weak. It would be better to put a 10 second cool down on bridges and finishers so players could not spam them instead of the current system. Leave openers alone put a 10 second timer on bridges and 15-20 second timer on finishers and the entire issue is fixed. No more issues with hand to hand being over powered because of its insane crit rate and no more issues with weapons being useless because you never crit with them.

Take this into account. Disciples get a skill that makes every special attack for 5 or so seconds crit. In that time I can spam 4-5 attacks and deal massive damage. The refresh on the skill is about 10 seconds so really every 5 seconds I can put out a massive burst of damage and crits. So there is really no valid reason to maintain the failed crit system at all.

So if a player had say 2 bridges you could use one bridge every 5 seconds but only one finisher every 20 seconds this allows decent damage output but keeps people from spamming finishing attacks all the time. Now later on when you have more than one finishing move you could use one bridge every 5 seconds and one finishing move every 10 seconds. If you have them on separate timers this allows a player to make strategic decisions rather than button mashing.

Bottom line is Timers are a better method of control than crits are. Crits should be a nice WOOT not an oh god, oh god please crit or I am dead scenario.

[Sickpuppy]

Take this into account. Disciples get a skill that makes every special attack for 5 or so seconds crit. In that time I can spam 4-5 attacks and deal massive damage. The refresh on the skill is about 10 seconds so really every 5 seconds I can put out a massive burst of damage and crits. So there is really no valid reason to maintain the failed crit system at all.

So if a player had say 2 bridges you could use one bridge every 5 seconds but only one finisher every 20 seconds this allows decent damage output but keeps people from spamming finishing attacks all the time. Now later on when you have more than one finishing move you could use one bridge every 5 seconds and one finishing move every 10 seconds. If you have them on separate timers this allows a player to make strategic decisions rather than button mashing.

Heh, wow. That's some exaggeration. The skill you are speaking of is Clarity. Clarity gives you 100% crit rate for 4 seconds. Global cooldown is 2 seconds, therefore this is enough time to cast two abilities. In addition to this, the cooldown of Clarity is 30 seconds, not 10. Two critical abilities every 30 seconds for 3 Jin each time is balanced imo.

[Zind]

In all honesty the Crit system is just weak. It would be better to put a 10 second cool down on bridges and finishers so players could not spam them instead of the current system. Leave openers alone put a 10 second timer on bridges and 15-20 second timer on finishers and the entire issue is fixed. No more issues with hand to hand being over powered because of its insane crit rate and no more issues with weapons being useless because you never crit with them.

Take this into account. Disciples get a skill that makes every special attack for 5 or so seconds crit. In that time I can spam 4-5 attacks and deal massive damage. The refresh on the skill is about 10 seconds so really every 5 seconds I can put out a massive burst of damage and crits. So there is really no valid reason to maintain the failed crit system at all.

Getting 4-5 attacks in during Clarity's duration? Now that is amazing! And...not possible. =)

[Hailin]

Anyone see the new patch notes? STILL NO animation fix for Void Hand2. I wouldn't normally care except I use the animations to know when my skill has gone off. Unless I create a separate chat box for my damage only and watch the cool downs I would think it was broken altogether.

DEVS just put in the void hand1 animation for now please and thank you.

[Zind]

Maybe a new bug, not really sure. I had thought this was just a feature of the combat system, but apparently it only affects Discs. If you use a weapon in your off-hand, but keep main-hand empty, you'll see your main-hand damage increase. I asked a monkey friend to try the same thing, but using one weapon in his off-hand and nothing in main-hand did nothing for the main-hand damage.

Also, the bug with going from Martial Sword to bare-hand effects all the 2H weapon skills as far as I can tell. Cheap way to raise their skill while getting the damage/crit benefits of using bare-hands / fists. You just equip any 2H type, kill something, then equip your normal wpn. When you start fighting, you'll get skill ups in the 2H type you had used.

[Zind]

Anyone see the new patch notes? STILL NO animation fix for Void Hand2. I wouldn't normally care except I use the animations to know when my skill has gone off. Unless I create a separate chat box for my damage only and watch the cool downs I would think it was broken altogether.

DEVS just put in the void hand1 animation for now please and thank you.

That reminds me! There doesn't appear to be an animation attached to Sun Fist either. Also, it sure would be -nice- if the timer for our Counterattacks were a bit longer, the global cooldown pretty much uses it up.

[Lyliani]

Anyone see the new patch notes? STILL NO animation fix for Void Hand2. I wouldn't normally care except I use the animations to know when my skill has gone off. Unless I create a separate chat box for my damage only and watch the cool downs I would think it was broken altogether.

DEVS just put in the void hand1 animation for now please and thank you.

/agree... it's not anything major compared to the other bugs for the dsc class, but i was so hoping to see dsc on the list of classes patched today. :(

[Tacit]

I know the +10% damage buff appears on your own buff list, but does it actually increase your damage? I see no increase in the character window and can't see any increase in my floating damage text.


yes, it increases your damage by 10%


White Lotus replaces Falling Petal on the finisher bar when it's activated.

if you use the G hotkey, it doesn't


I actually use this spell quite a lot. The reason it heals for so little compared to energy heals is that it's instant cast and has no energy/endurance cost. I agree though, it should have a slight heal increase.

Jin is more expensive than energy/endurance. 4dots/5dots hit for more than 484 on tanks anyways, since it activates your 1.5sec cooldown it won't save anyone.



This makes sense to me. It's not a counter attack (therefore it's castable at all times) but it only affects you. Are you suggesting it's changed so it's only castable when you have aggro? Or are you suggesting it should remove the mob's ability to attack anyone for 1 second? I think this is fine the way it is personally.

Im saying it shouldnt be castable when its not useable, if you cast on a mob that doesnt have you targeted, it does nothing (aka doesn't activate Astra Gale).

[Tacit]

Maybe a new bug, not really sure. I had thought this was just a feature of the combat system, but apparently it only affects Discs. If you use a weapon in your off-hand, but keep main-hand empty, you'll see your main-hand damage increase. I asked a monkey friend to try the same thing, but using one weapon in his off-hand and nothing in main-hand did nothing for the main-hand damage.

Also, the bug with going from Martial Sword to bare-hand effects all the 2H weapon skills as far as I can tell. Cheap way to raise their skill while getting the damage/crit benefits of using bare-hands / fists. You just equip any 2H type, kill something, then equip your normal wpn. When you start fighting, you'll get skill ups in the 2H type you had used.

You don't do normal bare-hand damage with it. Your crit rate goes down and you miss all the time, b/c you are in fact hitting as if you had a 2hander on.

[MBarman]

You can maintain two types of bonds at any time, two harmonious, two dissonant, or one of each. This should only be one of each. You can only maintain one per target, though


This is incorrect. By level 50 you can maintain 4 (I think, more than 2 anyway) bonds. If you could only have one of each the extra would be useless.

[Dashel]

>>White Lotus replaces Falling Petal on the finisher bar when it's activated.<<

if you use the G hotkey, it doesn't

I remapped it to the "F" key, but it replaces on the finisher bar for me.




Jin is more expensive than energy/endurance. 4dots/5dots hit for more than 484 on tanks anyways, since it activates your 1.5sec cooldown it won't save anyone.


Sure it will, if a tank is down to 200HP and you flare him it will save him from the next hit. Insta heals are extremely valuable. Pumping it up a bit I wouldnt complain about but it's certainly not useless.

[Sickpuppy]

Jin is more expensive than energy/endurance. 4dots/5dots hit for more than 484 on tanks anyways, since it activates your 1.5sec cooldown it won't save anyone.

I use it when I need to get a heal off very quickly. When I'm soloing I use it a lot when I'm below 30% health and fear getting interrupted to death using a castable heal. When I'm grouping I use this spell when anyone other than the tank gets aggro. Mine heals for ~700 at the moment, which is enough to heal over a third of casters' hit points. If a caster gets aggro, a lot of the time they aren't going to last long enough for me to get a castable heal off. Lao'Jin flare has probably saved their lives a good 20+ times in these situations. I also use it when the tank is low hp and I see the secondary healer casting a big heal, so he doesn't die before he gets it. It's useful in the right situations but I still agree it should heal for more.

[Zind]

Tacit,

I do more damage when using an Ulak/Claw than bare-handed, or any other type of weapon, is it by 10%, not sure. Also, I've never seen a +10% damage "buff" in my buff bar.

As fro the 2H weapon bug. When I equip my normal Claw, after using a 2H, my crit rate is normal, as if my damage, my hit rate I'm not sure of, though my claw/ulak skill has always been maxed at those times.

[Laiboch]

I started at the opening of beta 3 and played through release. I think if more people had an understanding of what the class has gone through in that time they may stop bitching about a lot of things and start addressing the actual issues in the game. It won’t matter what they change about the Disciple or any class unless they address the base balance issues in the game.

The actual issue is:
PVE imbalance between mobs and players.

Before release with my 30 Disc (not beta buffed) I can go all the way through a chain from open to finish that’s no less than 3 attacks. Before you open your mouth Sickpuppy let me break down this basic concept.

Global cooldown is 2 seconds, therefore this is enough time to cast two abilities.

You crit your first special which opens your bridge you crit your bridge which opens your finisher. Now it does matter if the ability has timed out because your finisher is already unlocked hence a full set every time. It’s an auto fire on 3 attacks you can even macro them with a bit of thought. That’s right its impossible to get 3 hits in…. With H2H crits as they are you don’t even really need this ability to be honest because you crit close to 70% of the time it seems.

If you use a bit more IQ you wait till you crit on an opener then use the ability crit on the next hit which still leaves time to use an opener again which will crit and send you back to your second ability and that opens your finishing attack.

Or opener, bridge, opener, bridge, finish.

I have seen the combat system change 3-4 times through beta to the paid beta we are in now called Release. The crit system was a kneejerk reaction trying to throw together a combat system when they couldn’t balance out the other 3.

With the revamp Disciples gained a large amount of DPS but sympathetic and many of the interesting options a disciple had are gone. It’s true the class needed a change, but the base issue has always been PVE balance.

The beta boards were cleared out because of the hundreds of posts by players about balance issues, bugs and such.

As I said a simple solution that removes the need for crits while still maintaining a balance is to simply put all bridge abilities on a 10 second timer and all finishing attacks on a 20 second timer. This removes the need for an ability that adds in an auto crit and also keeps people from spamming bridges and finishers.

[Shawnsan]

I started at the opening of beta 3 and played through release. I think if more people had an understanding of what the class has gone through in that time they may stop bitching about a lot of things and start addressing the actual issues in the game. It won’t matter what they change about the Disciple or any class unless they address the base balance issues in the game.

The actual issue is:
PVE imbalance between mobs and players.

Before release with my 30 Disc (not beta buffed) I can go all the way through a chain from open to finish that’s no less than 3 attacks. Before you open your mouth Sickpuppy let me break down this basic concept.



You crit your first special which opens your bridge you crit your bridge which opens your finisher. Now it does matter if the ability has timed out because your finisher is already unlocked hence a full set every time. It’s an auto fire on 3 attacks you can even macro them with a bit of thought. That’s right its impossible to get 3 hits in…. With H2H crits as they are you don’t even really need this ability to be honest because you crit close to 70% of the time it seems.

If you use a bit more IQ you wait till you crit on an opener then use the ability crit on the next hit which still leaves time to use an opener again which will crit and send you back to your second ability and that opens your finishing attack.

Or opener, bridge, opener, bridge, finish.

I have seen the combat system change 3-4 times through beta to the paid beta we are in now called Release. The crit system was a kneejerk reaction trying to throw together a combat system when they couldn’t balance out the other 3.

With the revamp Disciples gained a large amount of DPS but sympathetic and many of the interesting options a disciple had are gone. It’s true the class needed a change, but the base issue has always been PVE balance.

The beta boards were cleared out because of the hundreds of posts by players about balance issues, bugs and such.

As I said a simple solution that removes the need for crits while still maintaining a balance is to simply put all bridge abilities on a 10 second timer and all finishing attacks on a 20 second timer. This removes the need for an ability that adds in an auto crit and also keeps people from spamming bridges and finishers.

Actually no amount of KISS applied can keep Pavlov's Dogs from hitting the shiny button everytime it pops up.

The real wisdom in playing a class well is not hitting the shiny button everytime it pops up...especially in groups..

Agro control is YOUR responsibility too..

[Sickpuppy]

I started at the opening of beta 3 and played through release. I think if more people had an understanding of what the class has gone through in that time they may stop bitching about a lot of things and start addressing the actual issues in the game. It won’t matter what they change about the Disciple or any class unless they address the base balance issues in the game.

The actual issue is:
PVE imbalance between mobs and players.

Before release with my 30 Disc (not beta buffed) I can go all the way through a chain from open to finish that’s no less than 3 attacks. Before you open your mouth Sickpuppy let me break down this basic concept.



You crit your first special which opens your bridge you crit your bridge which opens your finisher. Now it does matter if the ability has timed out because your finisher is already unlocked hence a full set every time. It’s an auto fire on 3 attacks you can even macro them with a bit of thought. That’s right its impossible to get 3 hits in…. With H2H crits as they are you don’t even really need this ability to be honest because you crit close to 70% of the time it seems.

If you use a bit more IQ you wait till you crit on an opener then use the ability crit on the next hit which still leaves time to use an opener again which will crit and send you back to your second ability and that opens your finishing attack.

Or opener, bridge, opener, bridge, finish.

I have seen the combat system change 3-4 times through beta to the paid beta we are in now called Release. The crit system was a kneejerk reaction trying to throw together a combat system when they couldn’t balance out the other 3.

With the revamp Disciples gained a large amount of DPS but sympathetic and many of the interesting options a disciple had are gone. It’s true the class needed a change, but the base issue has always been PVE balance.

The beta boards were cleared out because of the hundreds of posts by players about balance issues, bugs and such.

As I said a simple solution that removes the need for crits while still maintaining a balance is to simply put all bridge abilities on a 10 second timer and all finishing attacks on a 20 second timer. This removes the need for an ability that adds in an auto crit and also keeps people from spamming bridges and finishers.

I'm not sure what I said to upset you or what I said that caused this aggressive post, but all I really see when I read this post is "my e-penis is bigger than your e-penis". Maybe you thought I was complaining about the crit ability? Although I have no idea why you would have thought that. The crit ability is balanced imo.

Also, if I understood your idea of using the crit ability after an openner and before a bridge/finisher, then the idea wouldn't work. Using any ability when you have finishers/bridges available loses your chance to use them.

Sorry if I missed the point of your post - I couldn't really see what you were getting at.

[Zind]

Also, if I understood your idea of using the crit ability after an openner and before a bridge/finisher, then the idea wouldn't work. Using any ability when you have finishers/bridges available loses your chance to use them.

Sorry if I missed the point of your post - I couldn't really see what you were getting at.

Actually, you can use some skills while a bridge/finisher is available, and still use it afterwards. At least that is what I've seen in regards to Falling Petals, in some cases. Example, I've seen Cyclone Kick crit and open up FP while I was in the process of doing the Endowment of Life, and after I used Void Hand I was still able to use FP. Yet, using a non-attack skill like Leeching Grasp / Clarity while FP was up, it would cancel it.

Laiboch. I'm not seeing the point of using Clarity while Falling Petal is active, it seems a real waste. When soloing I use Clarity every time its up, but only if FP isn't already up, so I can get two chains back to back (if I don't miss). It goes like: Blessed Wind (crit), Falling Petal, then White Lotus, Clarity, Soul Cutter, Falling Petal, and White Lotus.

Using Clarity while FP or WL is available cancels either one, so you loose out on damage. Since the bulk of my damage comes from FP / WL, I tend to make sure to use Clarity in order to get them, not to cancel them.

About using the "G" key to fire off a ChainReaction. How do you specify which Chain to use? I tried it last night, and pressing "G" would always fire off Concordant Hand, which doesn't open up White Lotus.

[Sickpuppy]

Actually, you can use some skills while a bridge/finisher is available, and still use it afterwards. At least that is what I've seen in regards to Falling Petals, in some cases. Example, I've seen Cyclone Kick crit and open up FP while I was in the process of doing the Endowment of Life, and after I used Void Hand I was still able to use FP. Yet, using a non-attack skill like Leeching Grasp / Clarity while FP was up, it would cancel it.


Strange. Are you sure it wasn't that Void Hand crit? If not this must be a bug.


About using the "G" key to fire off a ChainReaction. How do you specify which Chain to use? I tried it last night, and pressing "G" would always fire off Concordant Hand, which doesn't open up White Lotus.

I don't know about anyone else but I put them on my hotbar and bind keys to the hotbar buttons - maybe not an ideal way of doing things but it works for me.

[Zind]

Strange. Are you sure it wasn't that Void Hand crit? If not this must be a bug.



I don't know about anyone else but I put them on my hotbar and bind keys to the hotbar buttons - maybe not an ideal way of doing things but it works for me.

Quite sure it wasn't Void Hand. Also, speaking of Endowment of Life, I've noticed that using a finisher, like FP in the middle of the set will still let you finish the Endowment. (blessed wind, falling petal, cyclone, void = heal). Odd.

I also have dragged the icons from falling petal / white lotus to my hotbar and just use them there. At first, my key for falling petal would change its icon to white lotus, which was cool since I only needed to press that key twice, but for some reason it has stopped doing that. =)

[Dashel]

Tweaks:


Weapons aren't an option because they have 1/10th of the damage output of bare hand fighting due to their relative low crit rate. The fix should be a balance of slighty increasing weapon crit rate and slighty decreasing finisher damage and barehand crit rate. Barehand fighting should still have better damage output.



Today's Patch:

- Monks and Disciples - Monk unarmed critical hit bonus now matches that of light weapons. The disciple critical hit bonus when unarmed was only slightly decreased.

They also touched Blessed Wind and Endowment of Life. Maybe BW works now for full on defensive targets... let's see how much less it and EoL does though.

- Disciple – Lowered the heal portion of Blessed Wind.

- Disciple – Lowered healing on Endowment of Life.

[garath]

Today's Patch:



They also touched Blessed Wind and Endowment of Life. Maybe BW works now for full on defensive targets... let's see how much less it and EoL does though.

/sigh.. lowering crits is one thing but nerfing the healing? That's just criminal.

[Maetis]

Today's Patch:



They also touched Blessed Wind and Endowment of Life. Maybe BW works now for full on defensive targets... let's see how much less it and EoL does though.

My Endowment of Life used to do about 500 or so at level 14, now it does about 300. Looks like 60% the heal it used to be, not sure what others are seeing.

[Prediant]

/sigh.. lowering crits is one thing but nerfing the healing? That's just criminal.

Both our endurance heals were reduced about 45-50%. My endowment was healing for 515 and my Blessed Wind for 48 (I'm level 24).

Makes me want to cry.

Oh and went whole fights without critting once, I'd say its down to the 10% now with the limited testing I could do before server went down again.

[adolin]

Both our endurance heals were reduced about 45-50%. My endowment was healing for 515 and my Blessed Wind for 48 (I'm level 24).

Makes me want to cry.

Oh and went whole fights without critting once, I'd say its down to the 10% now with the limited testing I could do before server went down again.


Blessed Wind was healing for 87 pre patch, 43 post patch. I too went entire fights without crits, it definitely wasn't a "slight" reduction in unarmed crit, it was something to the tune of half.

Does BW work on defensive targets yet? How about our other HoT breaking early? If they went to the trouble of nerfing us but not fixing the blatant bugs, I have little faith in the future of this game. I expected a fix to our unarmed, and don't mind it, just so we're clear.

[garath]

Both our endurance heals were reduced about 45-50%. My endowment was healing for 515 and my Blessed Wind for 48 (I'm level 24).

Makes me want to cry.

Oh and went whole fights without critting once, I'd say its down to the 10% now with the limited testing I could do before server went down again.

Wonderful. From good soloing, mediocre group healer to mediocre soloing and extremely poor group healer?

It seems they took the path of least resistance to 'balancing' the disciple.

edit: at least tell me Blessed wind is fixed and actually works on others now??

[Rasia]

Wonderful. From good soloing, mediocre group healer to mediocre soloing and extremely poor group healer?

It seems they took the path of least resistance to 'balancing' the disciple.

edit: at least tell me Blessed wind is fixed and actually works on others now??

Still doesn't work on others, and they increased the End cost to 46 on it.

[Zind]

This was a poorly thought out change, one that wasn't even tested, I am sure. Just a kneejerk reaction to people saying Disc's were overpowered (but was just a case people being envious).

Anyway, Endowment of Life and Blessed Wind were reduced by 50%, for me at lvl24; EoL heals for 460, used to heal for 720-ish, and BW heals for 39 (useless) at lvl24.

Whats worse is that they couldn't even be bothered with fixing the healing buffs given by Falling Petals / White Lotus, both still have no effect on Blessed Wind or any other heal. Though, once or twice FP did buff BW...but only by 12pts, rather than the listed 41. That's just a bit insulting, imo.

As for the crit rate reduction, yea that is bad. Considering that the vast bulk of my damage came from Falling Petals / White Lotus, skills triggered by crits. In effect the Dev's lowered our damage by 50%, wasn't needed.

[Mazoch]

Still doesn't work on others, and they increased the End cost to 41 on it.

Yeah, it looks like our main attack just became more or less redundant. I only fought one mob before giving up and logging out. I hope some of this is unintended (There were no notes indicating an almsot doubling of the end cost of blessed wind on top of the decreased heal and decreased crit rate).

I know disciples were a powerful and potent class prior to today.. but were we so overpower to warrent such a reduction?!

[Blightless]

The crits i'm fine with... not a "slight decrease" but hey, we needed to get rid of the "OMG, I CRIT ALL THE TIME" posts.

The heal reductions it kind of pissy.
The cost increase on BW is really pissy just becuase it's not documented.

But the thing that truly pisses me off is that they were in there screwing with numbers, and havn't found a way to fix BW.

As well, I have a feeling that the healing reduction is not to balance group play, but solo play. But then again, we can't even see what a group should be like for us with BW being as broken as it is.

Oh, and BW is only 41 if you have EOM on. It's 46 otherwise.

[Rasia]

The crits i'm fine with... not a "slight decrease" but hey, we needed to get rid of the "OMG, I CRIT ALL THE TIME" posts.

The heal reductions it kind of pissy.
The cost increase on BW is really pissy just becuase it's not documented.

But the thing that truly pisses me off is that they were in there screwing with numbers, and havn't found a way to fix BW.

As well, I have a feeling that the healing reduction is not to balance group play, but solo play. But then again, we can't even see what a group should be like for us with BW being as broken as it is.

Oh, and BW is only 41 if you have EOM on. It's 46 otherwise.

I don't mind the loss of crits either, and certainly not fixing BW when you screw with it is annoying, but the end combined with the life nerf has totally changed my playing pattern. Before I was constantly target switching in my group, making sure the endownment hit who needed it, always trying to balance my attention between all my groupmates and combat. It was exciting and a challenge.

Now, I just autoattack the mob, randomly use soul cutter or void hand to get jin, and use the small casted heal. Big snore fest.

[Sickpuppy]

So I played for bout 15 mins after the new patch and here's my impressions (note: these are opinions):

Changes in the patch notes:

The disciple critical hit bonus when unarmed was only slightly decreased.
Well our crit certainly wasn't "slightly" decreased. It's more like 1/2 of what it was (at best). Our lowered crit rate alone drops our damage to 1/2 of what it was. A reduction was needed, but this reduction was too much.

Lowered the heal portion of Blessed Wind.
The heal amount has been roughly halved. ~950 over 7 seconds pre-patch, 473 over 8 seconds post-patch. The reduction wasn't needed and was far too much.

Lowered healing on Endowment of Life.
Mine went from ~1450 to ~800. This change is fine.

Changes not in the patch notes:

Reduced disciples damage.
This is a change disconnected from our crit rate change. Our abilities now hit for about 2/3 to 3/4 of what they were hitting for pre-patch. A damage decrease like this should not have been coupled with a massive crit reduction.

Increased endurance cost of abilities.
I wasn't logged in for long but here's a couple I noticed:
Blessed Wind up to 47(?) - Stupid change. It now does low damage, low heal amount, has a huge endurance cost and doesn't even work on allies. I doubt I'll be using it any more.
Blooming Ridge Hand up to 57(?) - Again, stupid change. This spell was okay in a group before at 40 endurance cost (thought not amazing), now it's pretty underpowered.
There was another I think but can't remember what it was.
These increases were not needed.

Lower hit rate?
I'm not 100% sure about this but it seems we now have a lower hit rate. Another disciple in my guild felt the same way. It's pretty hard to check this unfortunately.

All in all it seems we've been neutered. My killspeed is now about 1/3 of what it was before (providing I don't miss 5 finishers in a row). While I agree our class did need our damage toned down, I don't think the devs have grasped the concept of tweaking yet. It seems it's all or nothing. Our poor damage courpled with our poor healing ability as it is now is going to make us a useless end game raiding class. Let's hope they don't just leave it at this and forget about us over the next few months.

[Sickpuppy]

I only fought one mob before giving up and logging out. I hope some of this is unintended (There were no notes indicating an almsot doubling of the end cost of blessed wind on top of the decreased heal and decreased crit rate).

I know how you feel. I tested my xp rate, saw I went from ~18% per hour to ~6% per hour and logged out. I wouldn't mind that much if I knew they would fix it some time in the next 2 weeks, but I can't see it happening. Other classes have been as broken as post-patch dsc for weeks and they have seen no changes whatsoever. We're in for a rough journey. :)

[Kaffis]

I'm going to get in trouble for poking my nose into a class thread I don't play, but I feel obligated to point out that all crit-bonus weapons got their crit bonuses halved.

This was obviously seen as a game-wide imbalance with crit bonus weapons (which just happen to include disciple/monk bare hands), not a disciple-specific issue, if you ask me.

[Dyak]

19 Kurashasa Disciple here. Went to Donovan's Roost, north of Ahgram in Qalia. I killed 35 spiders in the ravine NE of the Roost. I found that the crit rate has even less than 50% of what it was. I counted 5 different times that I went 3 straight fights with zero crits. I had one fight that 3 crits went off. I had 4 fights when I had two crits. The rest were either zero crits or 1 crit.

Getting 1 crit was very common at the tail end of the fight, when the mob's health was below 10%. This was all unarmed.

I averaged about 2 or 3 Lao Flare heals per fight, when pre-nerf I averaged probably 1 with most fights requiring none. Energy was still not an issue, though I burned 80% of a bar when I had two level 21's on me. I would say our healing nerf is fine. Wind only healed me for 40 per, as opposed to 118 per it was before, but other than requiring more manual heals nothing felt different.

In the end, big nerf to Disciples. We needed a crit reduction, yes, but we didn't need this. I suggest to you devs that you parse out some fights more. There's no way I should have gone multiple fights in a row with no crits, and certainly not as many times as I did.

Also, I too noticed the unlisted nerfs in added endurance cost as well as less hit % overall. This was very, very stupid and totally not needed. Just reduce the crit % some, don't make sweeping tweaks! We've definitely been hit with a giant nerf bat, and took a fun, self-sufficient class down to one that barely gets by.

[The.Yield]

Ya I'm feeling the hurt on my 18 disciple. Though I called it! Hehe, knew this was comming.

I've noticed that our bare handed crit rate has gone into the shatter (as everyone says).

I'm getting a crit rate not unlike back when I used Bladestaffs (Before I knew about hand to hand awsomeness).

Hell, I'm even thinking about going back to bladestaffs since I only get 1 crit per fight now and even then it's usually from Clarity lol.

But ya, WAY overdone I think.

[Viktery]

This only came because so many of you asked for it.

Thanks a heap.
Now you can go play your broke version of a Cleric in peace.

[Viktery]

I don't mind the loss of crits either, and certainly not fixing BW when you screw with it is annoying, but the end combined with the life nerf has totally changed my playing pattern. Before I was constantly target switching in my group, making sure the endownment hit who needed it, always trying to balance my attention between all my groupmates and combat. It was exciting and a challenge.

Now, I just autoattack the mob, randomly use soul cutter or void hand to get jin, and use the small casted heal. Big snore fest.

People were asking for a lesser Cleric.

And they got it.

I think ill edit this later on and name names on who was asking so everyone can give em a hardy handshake.

[Calatin]

But ya, WAY overdone I think.

Maybe we're in line now with the intended dot system... a two-dot even being a decent solo fight and a three-dot being pretty hard. I know that wasn't true before the patch, when you could mow down things unless they were five levels above or four dots.

But now a three-dot green is about an even fight (e.g. win half, lose half), and a long boring one at at that.

If it's the intention that everyone be on this playing field... then it was a needed correction. However, I don't think that's true...I don't think they realized how dependent we disciples are on criticals, and how fast we're going through the endurance now.

So let's hope for a re-correction.

[adolin]

Now, I just autoattack the mob, randomly use soul cutter or void hand to get jin, and use the small casted heal. Big snore fest.


Exactly. That is exactly how I feel 100%.

[Sickpuppy]

This only came because so many of you asked for it.

Thanks a heap.
Now you can go play your broke version of a Cleric in peace.

The class was broken pre-patch. Sure it was broken in the disciple's favour, but it was still broken. Unfortunately the class now at the other end of the spectrum.

I have this super-duper-ultra-hyper-mega formula and if any dev is reading this post, they should memorize this before getting back to work:
useless healing + useless damage + useless buffs + useless utility = useless class.

Disciple's now have literally nothing to offer a group.

[Dashel]

Negative:

Crit rate about half
Finisher damage is down seemingly, need to check the logs.
EoL is down, but not out, it's about a 35% reduction.
BW is upped in endurance, down in healing power.

Result:
Damage about half
Heals even more inferior now.
Jin is tougher to come by without crits charging it.
Still inferior in other areas that were not touched, buffs heals utility etc.

Positive:

We can still solo. Not as well but we can do it.
We're in a good position to get bumped up because this was a harsh correction.
Maybe weapons will be a viable choice soon.
This will weed out the FoTM people heh.

[Calatin]

Disciples now have literally nothing to offer a group.

I always figured, "Sure, I don't have the bufs and armor and saves of a Cleric; or the spells and pets and utility of a Shaman; or the nukes and raw healing power of a Bloodmage.

"But I make up for it with good staying power, damage approaching offensive fighters (but not equal), and outstanding soloability."

If you take away the latter paragraph, uh, yeah. It's not pretty. I'm sure they'll find a happy medium *crosses fingers*.

[Laiboch]

The disciple critical hit bonus when unarmed was only slightly decreased.
Well our crit certainly wasn't "slightly" decreased. It's more like 1/2 of what it was (at best). Our lowered crit rate alone drops our damage to 1/2 of what it was. A reduction was needed, but this reduction was too much.

More like 1/5 of what it was. The Crit rate is now at maybe about 1 in 8-9 hits if you are lucky. Note that is with a 120 dex. Now its fine to reduce Disciple damage it needed done, but by jumping from one extreme to the other it show very little planning or thought being put into things. I understand changes need to happen, but at this point we are all playing to beta test a game that was not ready for release.

Lowered the heal portion of Blessed Wind.
The heal amount has been roughly halved. ~950 over 7 seconds pre-patch, 473 over 8 seconds post-patch. The reduction wasn't needed and was far too much.

Lowering the healing component of blessed wind is fine, but with the lower result the cost of the ability should have been reduced not upped to 46 endurance. It’s a simple path of logic. Less result should equal a lower cost. The amount the Blessed Wind ability healed was not the issue its how fast it healed. How about rather than cut the amount it heals space that amount over say 16 seconds instead of 8. You get everything and still make the ability a viable option.

This would also promote using more than just BW every other hit.

Lower hit rate?
I'm not 100% sure about this but it seems we now have a lower hit rate. Another disciple in my guild felt the same way. It's pretty hard to check this unfortunately.

I played for over an hour. The crit rate is the only thing that changed. You hit just as often, but it seems different because you are not getting a crit 5 out of 7 attacks. It’s not like you can’t kill mobs or take on good content solo or in a group you just lost 60% of your DPS. Effectively reverting the Disciple back to where it was before the revamp. Yes you can still level and solo, but it’s slower again. 2 steps forward 3 steps back.

Think about this as a solution to the actual issue at hand. The current system where a crit is required to activate any higher ability is fundamentally flawed. You add a random and unreliable requirement to use abilities that are needed for the class to function. The simple solution is to remove the crit system and put timers on abilities. This would allow a player to use their abilities as they are available, but also space them out so people are not just spamming one chain over and over because its their “I win” chain.

This isn’t just for Disciples it’s for any class. Use of ability cool downs as opposed to crits allow players to do bursts of DPS when it’s needed. Chose a chain when it’s going to help their group the most and actually think in a fight rather than being a monkey hitting a switch.

Even if it was set so Bridge attacks had a 15 second refresh and finishing moves had a 30 second refresh it still allows a player to make strategic decisions in a fight where using the crit system removes that and makes abilities more luck of the draw.

Here is an example:

Blessed Wind 1
Level 2
Type: Opener
Cost: 30 Endurance
Cast time: instant
Recast: 5 seconds
Range: 5
A graceful attack that deals 50% weapon damage plus 2. Heals your defensive target for 85 to 90 over 12 seconds. Increases Jin by 1.

Blessed Wind 2
Level 10
Type: Opener
Cost: 30 Endurance
Cast time: instant
Recast: 5 seconds
Range: 5
A graceful attack that deals 50% weapon damage plus 2. Heals your defensive target for 312 to 328 over 12 seconds. Increases Jin by 1.

Blessed Wind 3
Level 18
Type: Opener
Cost: 30 Endurance
Cast time: instant
Recast: 5 seconds
Range: 5
A graceful attack that deals 50% weapon damage plus 2. Heals your defensive target for 502 to 528 over 12 seconds. Increases Jin by 1.

Falling Petal 1
Level 6
Type: Bridge
Cost: 20 Endurance
Cast time: Instant
Recast: 15 seconds
Range: 5
Strips Lao'Jin from your opponent and grants it to an ally, dealing 96 to 104 damage and increasing incoming heals on your defensive target by 15 for 5 minutes. Increases Jin by 1.

Falling Petal 2
Level: 14
Type: Bridge
Cost: 20 Endurance
Cast time: Instant
Recast: 15 seconds
Range: 5
Strips Lao'Jin from your opponent and grants it to an ally, dealing 182 to 196 damage and increasing incoming heals on your defensive target by 28 for 5 minutes. Increases Jin by 1.

Falling Petal 3
Level: 22
Type: Bridge
Cost: 20 Endurance
Cast time: Instant
Recast: 15 seconds
Range: 5
Strips Lao'Jin from your opponent and grants it to an ally, dealing 276 to 294 damage and increases incoming heals on your defensive target by 41 to 5 minutes. Increases Jin by 1.

White lotus Strike
Level 22
Type: Finishing attack
Cost: 20 Endurance
Cast time: instant
Recast: 30 seconds
Range: 5
Tears Lao'Jin from your opponent and grants it to an ally, dealing 289 to 307 damage and increases incoming heals on your defensive target by 43 for 5 minutes. Increases Jin by 1. Only usable after Falling Petal.



By using this structure it would put Damage output at a reasonable level with out the need of a crit system at all. It would also simplify and reduce the amount of work involved to create a fair and balanced system. Faster results and better balance. Vanguard needs to get things balanced and the crit system simply adds more work to balance things than is honestly needed. Keep it simple stupid.

In this example you could use BW every 5 seconds making it good for group and solo use. By leaving the amount it heals the same but adding 4 seconds to how long it takes to heal again you have more balance.

Every 15-40 (depending on the bridge) seconds you could use your bridge attack. This would allow a decent hit with out requiring any form of critical hit to activate it. It would also make the attack more strategic instead of a button mashing event. The original thought behind the Vanguard combat system was to use strategy and choices. Players would have to weigh one choice against another. This would allow some of that to be brought back with out requiring massive changes to the system.

Every 30 seconds or about 2 times a fight you could use the finishing attack in this case White Lotus Strike. This would be a nice hit but with a 30 second timer on it you remove the spam attacks with this and other finishing attacks.

You could also make say 2 base attacks as opening attacks. 2 bridges and 2 finishing attacks. So at higher levels where grouping is more the focus players will be able to work in their group with out overpowering anyone. Again a more balanced system where the player has to chose which action they are going to take.

Take the following examples:

I would also recommend you remove the massive direct heal from Concordant Hand and replace it with a HoT like tranquility use to be and lower the damage on it.

A swell of Lao'Jin surrounds your attack, dealing 400% weapon damage plus 96 to 104 and heals your allies for 818 to 860. Increases Jin by 1. Refresh: 1

Change it to be more like this:

A swell of Lao’Jin surrounds your attack, Dealing 200% weapon damage plus 96 to 104 damage and heals your allies for 818 to 860 points over 16 seconds.

This would also make a more logical and flowing chain. For something that was this strong you could keep it on a 40 second to 1 min second timer and still keep a balance.

In this case Blessed Wind heals a single target over 16 seconds. Concordant Hand would heal your group like BW does with a decent amount of damage followed by a finishing attack that again gives some healing to the party.

Chain 1: this would make sense as it is a healing chain.
Blessed Wind> Concordant Strike> White lotus Strike

I would almost suggest changing Sun Fist from a counter attack to a finishing move, and take away the tiny healing bonus to Falling petal and add a small DoT for the same value as the current healing bonus for say 30 seconds (IE Falling petal 3 would do 41 a tick for 30 seconds instead of adding 41 points to a heal.)


This would give you:
Chain 2
Knife hand> Falling Petal>Sun Fist

Yes I Understand this would require pitting in a version of knife hand a bit earlier but the point is to show that the system in place with a few small changes can be made to be more effective and balanced than it is now.


It would also allow the Endow chains to be a choice. Are you going to use a bridge or are you going to use an endow? Which is going to help you or the group more?

As it is you can do both at the same time. It would be more balanced and fair over all to remove the Crit system and make players chose which they are going to use. It also gives the classes more flexibility and options with out creating a massive DPS imbalance in the game.

At 19 before they dumped the Crit rate to near non existence I could drop a mob in about 20 seconds. Fight and win against 4 dot mobs with a little thought and pacing the fight.

With this system yes Healers would still be able to fight a 3 dot mob, but it would be more of a time sink and that would make fighting 2 dot mobs more effective. It would balance out the healers with other classes. There is no reason a healing class should out DPS other classes, but as a healer they will be able to fight mobs other classes can’t. That’s just how it is. But by doing this in a class by class basis you create much more balance in PVE and PVP in one step as well as promoting groups even if its only 2-3 man groups in most area’s this builds community and community builds success.

[Shawnsan]

I was angry enough that they decided to nerf the hell out of disciples BEFORE fixing the bugged and broken abilities I happily canceled my subscription.

Shame on me for having faith in Brad.

[Hikaru_Genji]

As it was blessed wind was only balanced if you included our bonds... neither of which worked.

Before this nerf we needed boost in our healing ability to be brought in line with other healers.

Dev's if you read this...

Revert the changes so that all healers can be roughly equal in healing as the vision always said they would be. Fix our damage output so that we are similar to bloodmages(the other offensive healer). Fix the bugs on our bonds and blessed wind so they can be used in group.

Revert us and Fix us.

[Parallax]

I have to say its pretty *strange* that they would nerf us before fixing very well known bugs/issues.

Apparently nerfing is a higher priority right now then fixing bugs?

Anyways, the real big issue now is that they created more problems for themselves then they fixed...

[Viktery]

I have to say its pretty *strange* that they would nerf us before fixing very well known bugs/issues.

Apparently nerfing is a higher priority right now then fixing bugs?

Anyways, the real big issue now is that they created more problems for themselves then they fixed...

Well hopefully they get the message loud and clear from us. Though people were complaining alot about the crit rates.......which overall STILL didnt have us anywhere near monk levels as so many newbies around here believed, but we all agree on one thing: Fix the bugged spells before gimping there useability.
Now they have to go back, fix the spells, and THEN see if what they changed is balanced out again, and THEN put another fix. Its beyond me why there producer allowed them to institute this patch before all of that. But who knows, perhaps there plan is still in order, nothing we can do now but wait and see.

[Viktery]

Quick Question:
I was out by Yunis Step fighting some Patrollers and other things and I noticed I was taking WAY more damage than I normally do. I have the same gear I had since 10, and im about 12 1/2 now and I couldnt take one patroller. My damage wasnt as great, considering I got about 2 crits...not a big deal though...and then none of them hit...but still NOT a big deal, im trained to outlast, right?
Well for whatever reason my HP was plummeting to this guy, I died 3 times trying to kill him. Aftert watching his damage, he was hitting me by far for more than what normally would be done.
Now I also had quite a few bugs last night...my appearance was bugged, and my starting Avatar would have different gear on sometimes, or weapons ive never seen. So Im thinking, maybe my armor wasnt affecting his hits at all (everything was 100% durability).

Im going to try the same tonight, with a freshmind looking at my screen and numbers. But I hope we also didnt get a unmentioned nerf to defense.

[Friedrich]

Quick Question:
I was out by Yunis Step fighting some Patrollers and other things and I noticed I was taking WAY more damage than I normally do. I have the same gear I had since 10, and im about 12 1/2 now and I couldnt take one patroller. My damage wasnt as great, considering I got about 2 crits...not a big deal though...and then none of them hit...but still NOT a big deal, im trained to outlast, right?
Well for whatever reason my HP was plummeting to this guy, I died 3 times trying to kill him. Aftert watching his damage, he was hitting me by far for more than what normally would be done.
Now I also had quite a few bugs last night...my appearance was bugged, and my starting Avatar would have different gear on sometimes, or weapons ive never seen. So Im thinking, maybe my armor wasnt affecting his hits at all (everything was 100% durability).

Im going to try the same tonight, with a freshmind looking at my screen and numbers. But I hope we also didnt get a unmentioned nerf to defense.



Maybe. I dont know. I think a lot of this perceived extra nerfing is just us being scared out of our minds about additional unmentioned nerfs like the blessed wind end cost. For one, I never noticed myself missing attacks as much as I do now. That might just be because Ive got nothing to do anymore except stand back and heal and do the detaunt style every now and then to build jin. Not having to do our finisher attacks and with our combat styles taking half of our endurance we have a lot of time to sit around and notice other things wrong with the game. Are we taking mroe damage? Perhaps. Or maybe with blessed wind being a pile of feces and the endowment chain hardly even worth hitting the buttons for, it just looks like we are taking more damage than before since we dont have that hp influx.

[Sickpuppy]

Update:

Added - When dissonant bonds are resisted, the player side of the bond still works but the mob side does not. This means that Leech's Grasp still gives the player endurance for example, but the debuff won't be active on the mob. It also means if a dissonant bond like Touch of the Ox is resisted it needs to be cancelled before it can be recast again. The resist message also displays twice in floating damage text.

Added - Sun Fist has no animation or floating damage text (it still does damage).

Confirmed - Dodge's buff gets removed when you use another ability.

[Laiboch]

Confirmed - Dodge's buff gets removed when you use another ability.

It is supposed to. It kills auto attack and boosts your odds of dodging at the cost of attacking. This is intended.

[Sickpuppy]

It is supposed to. It kills auto attack and boosts your odds of dodging at the cost of attacking. This is intended.

Ahh I didn't know that. This means it's the tooltip that needs fixing, not the skill. ;)

Updated - Dodge's tooltip needs changing - "Dodge stops auto-attack and the buff gets removed when any ability is used."

[Sickpuppy]

Updated again:

Added - Multiple dissonant bonds can sometimes be cast on the same target (I've managed up to 3). It's very buggy and unpredictable, though. Sometimes multiple bonds will cast on the same target fine, other times you get "You are already looting" messages. These messages can be overcome by spamming the bond until it casts.

Added - Touch of Woe's tooltip isn't very clear. It says the mob takes damage on every attack, which makes it sound like it takes extra damage when someone attacks it rather than it takes damage when it attacks someone.

Changed - Sometimes when you dodge the counter-attack skills don't light up. They can still be cast even though they are greyed out on the client.

Moved - Paralyzing Touch doesn't correctly become available after using feint. This makes it unusable.

Removed - You can maintain two types of bonds at any time, two harmonious, two dissonant, or one of each. This should only be one of each. You can only maintain one per target, though.

The Paralyzing Touch bug was in the tweak section for some reason. I removed the bond one because apparently it's a feature not a bug.

[Dashel]

So how does Feint work exactly? Does the mob need to be attacking you or what.

[devmage]

Thank you for this post, as a devoted Disciple this was very informative to read.

I hope we see some action on a lot of these bugs.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Removed - Dodge's tooltip needs changing - "Dodge stops auto-attack and the buff gets removed when any ability is used."

Added - Dodge increases your chance to dodge _to_ 100%, stops auto-attack and cancels when you use an ability. The tooltip states that it increases dodge chance _by_ 100%(depending on level). Either the skill or the tooltip is bugged.

[Hikaru_Genji]

Added: Essence Thief I, II, and III are mysteriously missing from our trainer.

[Sickpuppy]

Added: Essence Thief I, II, and III are mysteriously missing from our trainer.

I have no idea if this is a bug or intentional. If they were on our trainers in beta and now they aren't, it suggests that it's intentional.

[Hikaru_Genji]

The abilities disapeared in the last patch. There are people in game that currently have the first rank of the spell(level 34 skill).

[Sickpuppy]

The abilities disapeared in the last patch. There are people in game that currently have the first rank of the spell(level 34 skill).

Actually I don't know anyone with the skill. I was the second disciple to hit 34 (which was before the last patch) and it wasn't on the trainers back then.

[Hikaru_Genji]

Niko in this thread says he already has the skill.

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10444

[Sickpuppy]

Niko in this thread says he already has the skill.

http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10444

Well either he's confused about what skill you're talking about or some trainers still have it.

[Niko]

I don't have this skill after all. I'm only level 21. I was thinking of the bond that drains endurance you get at lower levels. The essence theif sounds like it was pre revamp.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Removed: Blessed Wind only ticks once on allies.

Removed: Fallen Petal and White Lotus +heal buffs don't have an effect.

Removed: Void Hand has no animation or floating damage text (it still does damage).

Added: Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect Blessed Wind.

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. No condition or reproducability has been confirmed.

Changed: Dissonant Bonds - Multiple bonds can sometimes be cast on the same target (I've managed up to 3). It's very buggy and unpredictable, though. Sometimes multiple bonds will cast on the same target fine, other times you get "You are already looting" messages. No condition or reproducability for casting 2+ bonds has been confirmed.

I also changed the bug list slightly to make it more readable.

[Makeikusa]

Mods: any chance we could get this sticky'd?

[hawkeye_pierce2]

There's so many scattered threads about disciple bugs and things that need to be tweaked so I wanted to compile one big thread about it all.

The list is split into bugs that need to be fixed and tweaks that should be implemented starting with the most important first. Bugs are fact and tweaks are opinion so obviously if a lot of people disagree with or want something added to the tweak list I will change it. Hopefully people can just post in here when they find something wrong with the class instead of making a new thread about it.

Updated: 00:51 GMT 16th Feb '07

Bugs:

Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. No condition or reproducability has been confirmed.
Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect Blessed Wind.
Dissonant Bonds - When they are resisted, the player side of the bond still works but the mob side does not. This means that Leech's Grasp still gives the player endurance for example, but the debuff won't be active on the mob. It also means if a dissonant bond like Touch of the Ox is resisted it needs to be cancelled before it can be recast again. The resist message also displays twice in floating damage text.
Dissonant Bonds - Multiple bonds can sometimes be cast on the same target (I've managed up to 3). It's very buggy and unpredictable, though. Sometimes multiple bonds will cast on the same target fine, other times you get "You are already looting" messages. No condition or reproducability for casting 2+ bonds has been confirmed.
Paralyzing Touch - This doesn't correctly become available after using feint. This makes it unusable.
Soul Cutter - The threat reduction effect is either very small or non-existant.
Baiting Strike- Seems to have no effect.
Martial Swords - Sometimes bugs bare hand. After unequipping you will continue to hit based on your martial sword/2h skill. Relogging fixes this issue.
Astral Walk - Not all dungeons are flagged as dungeons for Astral Walk.
Blessed Wind - The heal amount is affected by crit. This can make the same level blessed wind tick for 50, 100, 200, 400 etc. It seems to be a seperate crit roll from the damage part.
Dodge - Increases your chance to dodge _to_ 100%, instead of _by_ 100%(depending on level). Also stops auto-attack and gets cancelled when any ability is used.
Counter-attacks - Sometimes when you dodge the counter-attack skills don't light up. They can still be cast even though they are greyed out on the client.
Shurikens - Do 1/3-1/2 of the listed damage on the Shuriken itself.
Symbol of Unity - Disappears if somebody uses it in combat, this should give an error message instead.
Shurikens - Get used up after you equip another type of shuriken. You can put them in ranged or ammo, however if you move them from one to the other there's a good chance it will start using them. (unconfirmed)
Hand Wraps - Don't correctly use the Hand Wrap weapon skill.
Sun Fist - Has no animation or floating damage text (it still does damage).
Sun and Moon Discipline - Has a mana cost (which makes no sense seeing as it restores mana)
Leech's Grasp - The tooltip is wrong. Level 1 drains 5end/3sec and level 2 drains 10end/3sec.
Touch of Woe - The tooltip isn't very clear. It says the mob takes damage on every attack, which makes it sound like it takes damage when someone attacks it rather than when it attacks someone.


Tweaks:


Our overall damage output is very low. Since the 07/02/07 patch we have one of the lowest damage outputs out of all the classes. Barehand damage should either be increased(around +50-100%) or our crit-rate should be put back to ~30-40%. Weapons also need a small increase in crit rate or damage.
Our general healing ability is very low. We are the worst healer by a fair bit at the moment. Our healing ability needs to be increased if we are to be seen as and picked for groups as a "Healer" class. Fixing our broken heals will help this, but probably not to the point where the issue goes away.
At the moment there isn't much we can offer a group. This stems from the above two points and also the fact that we have no unique and/or desirable abilities or buffs.
Blessed Wind's heal amount is too small. The amount healed needs to be increased (around +50-75%) and/or the ability needs an endurance cost reduction (back to 30).
Blooming Ridge Hand's endurance cost is huge. This needs to be reduced or the effect increased.
We need many more endowments. Maybe one for threat reduction? One for damage? One that gives a Jin bonus?
Endowment of Mastery doesn't last long enough for the time and endurance cost to cast it.
Endowment of Balance has a very small effect for the time and endurance cost it takes to cast it.
Counterattacks cost too much endurance. It seems like they're meant to be "bonus" attacks to reward good reactions and twitch-based play but they all have a high endurance cost.
Lao'Jin Flare's heal amount should be increased slightly.
Ra'Jin Flare does very little damage (around 350) for a huge Jin cost. This ability needs a big damage boost.
Favor of the Crow II has a very small increase over Favor of the Crow I. It should be more effective.
Touch of Woe's effect should be significantly increased or changed (it's useless when we have Leech's Grasp).
Kiss of the Slug III isn't very useful. Make it castable, longer lasting or just remove it.
Celestial Breeze has a very long cast time and high mana cost. One of these should be reduced slightly. It should also have a slightly bigger range.


*According to Elrar's post in this thread (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9843), the only disciple change that was accidental or overshot in the patch on the 7th was the endurance costs. It seems like the current state of the Disciple is Sigil's view of balanced.*

Ok sooner or later a quality post (and thread) like this needs to be stickied...does anyone else agree? Also I do finally have something to add besides just "QFE" lol. The bug with switching weapons in-game but still building skill for the last equipped weapon isn't limited to Martial Swords. It's global (meaning if you put in a shanker 2-handed piercing then go to a sword or even wraps or bare hand, you'll still earn skill points in the shanker. Likewise, if you have a sword and move to wraps or bare knuckles, you still skill-up in sword, etc). This is a mechanical bug like many other Disciple bugs and it really needs Priority-1 fixing (especially since I'm sure you could replicate this bug across all classes. Simply equip a weapon type, fight with it, then uneqiup it mid-fight or afterwards and keep fighting...you'll notice the previous weapon-type skill still goes up and your current one does not)! More bug fixes, less nerfs. More bug fixes, less nerfs. Fix Vanguard.

[garath]

Ok sooner or later a quality post (and thread) like this needs to be stickied...does anyone else agree? Also I do finally have something to add besides just "QFE" lol. The bug with switching weapons in-game but still building skill for the last equipped weapon isn't limited to Martial Swords. It's global (meaning if you put in a shanker 2-handed piercing then go to a sword or even wraps or bare hand, you'll still earn skill points in the shanker. Likewise, if you have a sword and move to wraps or bare knuckles, you still skill-up in sword, etc). This is a mechanical bug like many other Disciple bugs and it really needs Priority-1 fixing (especially since I'm sure you could replicate this bug across all classes. Simply equip a weapon type, fight with it, then uneqiup it mid-fight or afterwards and keep fighting...you'll notice the previous weapon-type skill still goes up and your current one does not)! More bug fixes, less nerfs. More bug fixes, less nerfs. Fix Vanguard.

The reason the skill of the old equipped weapon still goes up is because your specials are still hitting as if you have that weapon equipped. Equip a weapon you have low or no skill in, hit a few mobs, unequip it and watch your regular hits be just fine and your specials miss miss miss as if you still had the weapon equipped. Its less noticable at low levels because you will still hit the mob most of the time even with a lower skill but as you get into the 200+ skill range that 30 skill in martial staves will not land very often on 20+ level mobs.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Removed: Hand Wraps - Don't correctly use the Hand Wrap weapon skill.

[Sunrock]

Kiss of Haven: I have found this bound to act quite strangly both on I and II. First of all when you hover your mouse over in the buff window it say Heals 0 every 4 sec. But thats not all when cast in combat it can break after 1-2 sec aswell. To me this ability looks totaly broken.

Endowment of Life: Ok I agree this ability deserved to be "nerfed". But it does not scale after lv as I would like to see it do. I find myself at lv 20 use more energy healing then endurance healing and to me thats not what the disciple is all about. My short heal (the 1.5 sec cast) do now around 200 more in healing then my endowment of life.

Would be very happy if this ability scale after lv.

[Sickpuppy]

Kiss of Haven: I have found this bound to act quite strangly both on I and II. First of all when you hover your mouse over in the buff window it say Heals 0 every 4 sec. But thats not all when cast in combat it can break after 1-2 sec aswell. To me this ability looks totaly broken.


This is actually covered in bug number 1. All I know about this bug is that when you cast a harmonious bond out of combat it will stay on the recipient. If you cast it in combat, I think certain abilities the recipient uses will sometimes remove it. I've been trying to work this out over the past few days but it's too random. I've updated the bug again.


Endowment of Life: Ok I agree this ability deserved to be "nerfed". But it does not scale after lv as I would like to see it do. I find myself at lv 20 use more energy healing then endurance healing and to me thats not what the disciple is all about. My short heal (the 1.5 sec cast) do now around 200 more in healing then my endowment of life.

Would be very happy if this ability scale after lv.

I don't know what level you are so you might not have a lot of the same skills as me yet, but I actually do a lot of my healing through endurance and jin since the patch. Over the past few days I've been duoing with a paladin and we've been fighting 3dots and 4dots 3 levels above him. I can heal him through the whole fight purely with blessed wind and blooming ridge hand. Occasionally when a 4dot mob gets a few good hits (like when I forget to recast touch of the ox) I will throw him a big heal. Blooming Ridge Hand heals him for 200hp per auto-attack and ability he hits the mob with when he has my finisher buffs on him, which I keep on him all the time, and I use clarity before blessed wind to increase it's heal amount. I bet when the finisher buffs work with blessed wind you'll see that endurance healing is more effective too.

The real problem with our healing ability, which I encountered a couple of times in a 5 man group yesterday, is when a situation gets out of control and we have to chainheal. Heals now cost a lot so, when you only have enough energy to cast 10 quick heals, chain healing can quickly eat your energy. If you have enough time to attack between the heals you can usually build up enough jin for Sun and Moon discipline, which should give you another 2-3 heals per cast, but if not you'll usually end up rinsing all your energy in about 20 seconds then helplessly watching your tank die. Maybe this is a feature of our class I don't know, but we're certainly a lot better in controlled situations at the moment.

We also still have a few bugs to be worked out before we can properly feel how our class is as a healer. +Heal buffs need to be fixed to work with blessed wind and Kiss of Heaven doesn't even work right now (I have a feeling this will be an awesome heal spell although again, better in controlled situations).

Updated:

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. Out of combat these bonds never seem to drop prematurely. In combat it seems certain abilities the recipient casts can trigger the bonds to drop before the full 60 seconds.

Added: Harmonious and dissonant bonds need a timer once they are cast (in the buff/debuff window).

[Lyliani]

The real problem with our healing ability, which I encountered a couple of times in a 5 man group yesterday, is when a situation gets out of control and we have to chainheal. Heals now cost a lot so, when you only have enough energy to cast 10 quick heals, chain healing can quickly eat your energy. If you have enough time to attack between the heals you can usually build up enough jin for Sun and Moon discipline, which should give you another 2-3 heals per cast, but if not you'll usually end up rinsing all your energy in about 20 seconds then helplessly watching your tank die. Maybe this is a feature of our class I don't know, but we're certainly a lot better in controlled situations at the moment.


I agree with what you said here - I have no problems in group when everything is going nice and smooth, but sometimes, when we get 3 or 4 pulls, it gets a bit hectic and i find myself chain healing with energy heals. Also, it would help if dps classes in the group knew how to assist the MT instead of gaining aggro from adds!... :D

[Zind]

Feint: Switch it to use Energy rather than End. Seems odd that it requires End, so you can use Astral Gale that restores End, but if you -need- End you won't have enough to use Feint. =)

Counterattacks: Increase their "to use" timers, and/or, do not allow the global cooldown to affect them, this would make using them viable without interrupting the flow of combat.

Blooming Ridge Hand: This attack seems to not interrupt a Chain, I've been able to use it when Falling Petals or White Lotus were available.

[Sickpuppy]

Feint: Switch it to use Energy rather than End. Seems odd that it requires End, so you can use Astral Gale that restores End, but if you -need- End you won't have enough to use Feint. =)

Astral Gale is useless right now, but I don't think Feint should be changed to use energy. I think a better idea would be to change Astral Gale to a low damage advanced finisher with a 3 minute cooldown or possibly a 3second cast time spell with no prerequisite to casting.

Counterattacks: Increase their "to use" timers, and/or, do not allow the global cooldown to affect them, this would make using them viable without interrupting the flow of combat.

Counterattacks definately need to be changed so they don't use global cooldown, but I think their timer is good at the moment. It seems like it's about 2seconds. Any longer and there would be no skill required to use them imo.

Blooming Ridge Hand: This attack seems to not interrupt a Chain, I've been able to use it when Falling Petals or White Lotus were available.
I'll have to test this one. I can't say I've ever noticed it.
edit: I just tried it and it interrupts the chains as normal for me. Could you be any more specific about exactly what you are experiencing?

[Dashel]

I don't know what level you are so you might not have a lot of the same skills as me yet, but I actually do a lot of my healing through endurance and jin since the patch. Over the past few days I've been duoing with a paladin and we've been fighting 3dots and 4dots 3 levels above him. I can heal him through the whole fight purely with blessed wind and blooming ridge hand. Occasionally when a 4dot mob gets a few good hits (like when I forget to recast touch of the ox) I will throw him a big heal. Blooming Ridge Hand heals him for 200hp per auto-attack and ability he hits the mob with when he has my finisher buffs on him, which I keep on him all the time, and I use clarity before blessed wind to increase it's heal amount. I bet when the finisher buffs work with blessed wind you'll see that endurance healing is more effective too.

I see the exact same thing at 29. I was trioing with a Warrior and ranger the other day and I was able to keep him up on a 4 dot 2 levels above him using blessed wind, blooming ridge hand (love this skill) and mixing in the occasional EoL, concordant hand and energy heal. Mostly endurance heals though by a good amount.

The real problem with our healing ability, which I encountered a couple of times in a 5 man group yesterday, is when a situation gets out of control and we have to chainheal. Heals now cost a lot so, when you only have enough energy to cast 10 quick heals, chain healing can quickly eat your energy. If you have enough time to attack between the heals you can usually build up enough jin for Sun and Moon discipline, which should give you another 2-3 heals per cast, but if not you'll usually end up rinsing all your energy in about 20 seconds then helplessly watching your tank die. Maybe this is a feature of our class I don't know, but we're certainly a lot better in controlled situations at the moment.

When things fall apart it is rough. We have a tough time maintaining the heals if we cant attack. I think Kiss of Heaven will help a lot once it's fixed. I dont know if other healers have this problem as well though, I would think they do.

[Sunrock]

Sickpuppy. Endowment of life heals about the same about of HP betwean lv 19 and lv 20 anway... Not spend alot of time mixing with this yet as I spend almost 5-6 houers aday grinding workorders :cool:

[Zind]

Sick,

I've noticed on at least two occasions that BRH didn't interrupt my Chain. My usual opening attacks are Knife Hand followed by BRH, so I've had KH crit and I would hit BRH out of habit right after, but the Finishers would remain active. Now I guess it would be possible that I had a crit on BRH at those times, but I can't recall. I will try it out in a bit and see what happens.

Counterattacks. The current timer on these is kinda low, and if you're notusing Dodge to make them available, there is a good chance that they will light up during a global cooldown, which would pretty much cancel your chance at using them.

[sezyboy]

Yes the group thing is a problem that im finding out as well. A 2-3 mob pull with good CC is a good situation. More tends to get a bit of a problem.

Since i havent obtained BRH my best situation would be to have KoH working where i can place that on my tank and use Blessed Wind until i have to heal big time. That way i can slowly build endurance heals and timing that with energy heals in a critical situation.

Im excited about the possibilities of what harmonious bonds can do to make my strategies more versatile. Sometimes i test these in groups where the situation wont get dire but i cant trust the breakage of the bonds to test them in a critical situation.

[Spottycat]

Blooming Ridge Palm and the incoming heal bonuses from Falling Petal and White Lotus all stack.

Cast Falling Petal and White Lotus on a groupie sometime for the +85~ healing and then shove Blooming Ridge Palm on something.

That groupie will gain the full benefit of a 140~ heal every time they attack and I believe that this was designed this way on purpose.

Is there another class that gets a similar hp regen for a higher amount?

Jaguar Stronglove
27 Kurashasan Disciple
--"unguilded" of Florendyl

[Dashel]

Speaking of White Lotus... anybody else notice a problem with it?

The other day (Saturday?) I noticed it going off virtually every single time I hit either Falling Petal or Concordant Hand. I mean had to be over 80% of the time, crit on the finisher or not. Prior to that I dont even remember seeing it once since the great nerf of 2-7.

And now.. .back to not going off period, even if I crit FP.

P.S. Sun Fist crit doesnt seem to generate a finisher opportunity, not sure if that's intended.

[Spottycat]

Speaking of White Lotus... anybody else notice a problem with it?

The other day (Saturday?) I noticed it going off virtually every single time I hit either Falling Petal or Concordant Hand. I mean had to be over 80% of the time, crit on the finisher or not. Prior to that I dont even remember seeing it once since the great nerf of 2-7.

And now.. .back to not going off period, even if I crit FP.

P.S. Sun Fist crit doesnt seem to generate a finisher opportunity, not sure if that's intended.

Were you fighting something significantly lower level than you? That seems to modify the critical chance by quite a bit.

I noticed that today as well while soloing a named level 35.2 with Touch of Woe. Sun Fist doesn't generate finisher chances when it crits. What's up with that?

[Sickpuppy]

Blooming Ridge Palm and the incoming heal bonuses from Falling Petal and White Lotus all stack.

Cast Falling Petal and White Lotus on a groupie sometime for the +85~ healing and then shove Blooming Ridge Palm on something.

That groupie will gain the full benefit of a 140~ heal every time they attack and I believe that this was designed this way on purpose.

Is there another class that gets a similar hp regen for a higher amount?
The skill is _average_. It's not amazing. Certainly nothing like some of the heals the other classes get. There are a lot of requirements before the heal actually works:
1. You have to hit a Blooming Ridge Hand on the mob.
2. You have to buff the ally with finisher buffs.
3. The ally has to be a melee class and has to be able to hit the mob consistantly (it only gives them health on a hit). Evasion buffs and stuns can therefore make this skill pretty awful.
Speaking of White Lotus... anybody else notice a problem with it?

I've never noticed a problem with it. The only time mine doesn't trigger is when I miss falling petal. One thing I _have_ noticed which might be what you're experiencing is that white lotus doesn't appear on the finisher bar sometimes, even when it becomes active. I have mine on my hotbar bound to a key so it doesn't really affect me, but it might be a pain in the ass for clickers.

P.S. Sun Fist crit doesnt seem to generate a finisher opportunity, not sure if that's intended.
Yeah, it kinda sucks. I guess we'll have to wait for an official response on this.

[Zind]

Looks like BRH did crit, thus keeping my finishers lit up. Nice coincidence. ;)

Simple visual gripe: If any dev ever reads this, please, please, please change or speed up the animations for: Palm of Discord, Soul Cutter, Void Hand, and Blessed Wind. In their current forms, they all bring the flow of attack animations to a grinding halt.

[Dashel]

I've never noticed a problem with it. The only time mine doesn't trigger is when I miss falling petal. One thing I _have_ noticed which might be what you're experiencing is that white lotus doesn't appear on the finisher bar sometimes, even when it becomes active. I have mine on my hotbar bound to a key so it doesn't really affect me, but it might be a pain in the ass for clickers.



Hmm ok. I'll put it on my hotbar and see if that matters. Does WLS light up on the hotbar and do you get the audio queue that it's available?

Because since that string ended, I *never* see it or hear it at all. But again, it's not on my hotbar, I will try this tonight.

[Dashel]

http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/List_of_Disciple_Skills_and_Spells

Essence Thief I 38 Endurance Melee Attack Offensive Target Instant 5

Strikes at the essence of your opponent, dealing 1691 to 1781 damage and draining 1486 to 1566 energy. Refresh: 1:00

Do we still get this skill? I checked the trainer yesterday really quickly before logging and didnt see it.

How about Mindless Clutch at 38?

Mindless Clutch I Dissonant Bond Offensive Target Instant Forms a dissonant bond with an opponent, draining 576 energy every 4 seconds for 60 seconds.

[Sickpuppy]

http://wiki.silkyvenom.com/index.php/List_of_Disciple_Skills_and_Spells



Do we still get this skill? I checked the trainer yesterday really quickly before logging and didnt see it.

How about Mindless Clutch at 38?

I haven't been able to get Essence Theif but we do get Mindless Clutch. Because mobs have infinite energy, Mindless Clutch is just a temporary Acumen really. It gives you similar mana regen. I play on a PvE server so I don't know how it works in PvP.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Added: Mindless Clutch - The tooltip is wrong. It says 576 energy every tick instead of 576 energy total (~38 per tick).

I think Paralyzing Touch now works but I haven't had time to test it properly. If anyone else has it, give it a try. I'll try to test it a little more today.

[Dashel]

I haven't been able to get Essence Theif but we do get Mindless Clutch. Because mobs have infinite energy, Mindless Clutch is just a temporary Acumen really. It gives you similar mana regen. I play on a PvE server so I don't know how it works in PvP.

Thanks. I am hoping they either change the infinite energy thing or impliment a significant amount of raid encounters that can use these skills to drain a mob.

[Dashel]

Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect Blessed Wind.


EDIT after thinking about it, who knows what is affecting BW, but seems like it's applied sometimes and other times it's not. If it is applied, it's not for the amounts stated:

6[18:11:35] [18:11] You begin autoattacking.
[18:11:35] [18:11] You have established ownership.
[18:11:35] [18:11] Your <highlight>Blessed Wind IV</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>268(180+88)</color> damage.
[18:11:35] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:37] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>127(84+43)</color> damage.
[18:11:37] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:39] [18:11] Your <highlight>Cyclone Kick III</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>373(254+119)</color> damage.
[18:11:39] [18:11] Critical hit for an additional 124 points!
[18:11:39] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:41] [18:11] Your <highlight>Falling Petal III</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>477</color> damage.
[18:11:41] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:42] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>130(91+39)</color> damage.
[18:11:43] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:45] [18:11] Your <highlight>White Lotus Strike I</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>502</color> damage.
[18:11:46] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>129(90+39)</color> damage.
[18:11:46] [18:11] You begin to cast <highlight>Breath of Renewal IV</color>.
[18:11:48] [18:11] Your <highlight>Breath of Renewal IV</color> heals you for <highlight>1149</color> hit points.
[18:11:48] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>121(88+33)</color> damage.
[18:11:49] [18:11] You begin to cast <highlight>Breath of Renewal IV</color>.
[18:11:51] [18:11] Your <highlight>Breath of Renewal IV</color> heals you for <highlight>1149</color> hit points.
[18:11:51] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>125(88+37)</color> damage.
[18:11:52] [18:11] Your <highlight>Blessed Wind IV</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>275(194+81)</color> damage.
[18:11:52] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 98 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:54] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 98 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:55] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>127(88+39)</color> damage.
[18:11:56] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 98 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:57] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>127(92+35)</color> damage.
[18:11:58] [18:11] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 98 points of health into Perigee.
[18:11:59] [18:11] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>125(88+37)</color> damage.
[18:12:00] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 98 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:01] [18:12] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>125(82+43)</color> damage.
[18:12:03] [18:12] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>122(85+37)</color> damage.
[18:12:03] [18:12] Your <highlight>Blessed Wind IV</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>274(187+87)</color> damage.
[18:12:03] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:05] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:06] [18:12] You miss Large Chromatic Lizard!
[18:12:07] [18:12] <HIGHLIGHT>Knife Hand II</COLOR> deals <HIGHLIGHT>109</COLOR> damage to Large Chromatic Lizard.
[18:12:07] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:09] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:10] [18:12] You crush Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>121(81+40)</color> damage.
[18:12:10] [18:12] Your <highlight>Void Hand IV</color> hits Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>201</color> damage.
[18:12:10] [18:12] <HIGHLIGHT>Knife Hand II</COLOR> deals <HIGHLIGHT>109</COLOR> damage to Large Chromatic Lizard.
[18:12:11] [18:12] <GREEN>A blessed wind breathes 65 points of health into Perigee.
[18:12:13] [18:12] You stop autoattacking.
[18:12:13] [18:12] You have slain corpse of Large Chromatic Lizard!
[18:12:13] [18:12] You crush corpse of Large Chromatic Lizard for <highlight>126(91+35)</color> damage.
[18:12:26] [18:12] Pale Lizard Scales(s) were added to your inventory.
[18:12:32] [18:12] You begin autoattacking.
[18:12:32] [18:12] You have established ownership.

Also please add that WLS does not work properly (in my case) in updating on the crit bar, nor does it give an audio signal. This did work briefly for me, but seems like it updated over concordant hands slot, you'd think it would come in over Falling Petal. Currently it does not update, I can only see it highlight on my hot bar with no countdown timer.

[Therian]

This thread remains extremely useful. Thanks for maintaining it.

Although it's not really a bug with Disciple, my small contribution is to note the outstanding number of quests which have no useable reward for disciple and monk.

[Sickpuppy]

EDIT after thinking about it, who knows what is affecting BW, but seems like it's applied sometimes and other times it's not. If it is applied, it's not for the amounts stated:

This is due to heal over time spells having a crit roll on their heal part, not due to the effect of +heal buffs. The +heal buffs actually have no effect on any heal over time spells but work on everything else (afaik).

Updated:

Added: Finisher Bar - Skills don't display properly on the finisher bar, so sometimes a skill becomes available but you won't be able to see it on the finisher bar.

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. No condition or reproducability has been confirmed except that they don't dispel out of combat.

Changed: Fallen Petal and White Lotus - Their +heal buffs don't affect heal over time spells.

Removed: Paralyzing Touch - This doesn't correctly become available after using feint. This makes it unusable.

[terronis]

Shurikens seem to do the lvl 1 skill shuriken damage plus dex bonus.

Dodge will not work if npc hitting you is not your offensive target.

Critting with martial staff or bladed staff on combat arts seems to add the weapons crit double bonus after the % of weapon damage skill adds instead of before % damage from skill is figured.(possible more testing needed)
Example 100 damage staff with concord hand is doing (100x4)+100=500 instead of (100x2)x4=800.

Timer on Bonds and FD would be nice.

Discriptions of the energy/end bonds reworded. Ex. Leech grasp does 5end every 3 seconds instead of 105 every 3 seconds.

Defense skills max say 8% dodge 4% parry yet dex tool tip with 3 point in dex a lvl say 4.65% dodge .65% parry. Should these not be more balanced as they are not even the same percentage of bonus of the skill.
12% parry bonus from martial sword is not applying 12% parry it only adds like 10.8% as total parry bonus is under 12% with it equiped according to dex tooltip.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Changed: Finisher Bar - Sometimes a skill becomes available but you won't be able to see it on the finisher bar. One cause is when you try to cast an available advanced finisher during global cooldown. This causes the finisher bar to reset and not display the advanced finisher.

[sezyboy]

On the feb 22 patch...anybody can confirm any other fixes besides the two that they listed on the patch notes?

I am hoping for bond fixes but i guess they would mention something big like that. *sigh

:confused:

[Charnas]

Yep, was hoping for fixed bonds :(

[parki]

Since they didnt do much for healers on this patch... does this patch means they think Healers are balanced? That Disciples got it right?

[Charnas]

I'd like to see us given two different stances/focus along the lines of the bloodmage/cleric/shaman.

Lao'Jin Focus - requires 5 jin to shift to this focus
- Raises healing power by 10%
- Increased effectiveness of harmonious bonds
- Damage reduced by 5%
- Increased rate of jin decay when out of combat
- Dodge rate reduced 5%

Ra'Jin Focus - requires 5 jin to shift into this focus
- Increased effectiveness of dissonant bonds
- Damage increased by 10%
- Reduced healing power by 5%
- Increased rate of jin decay when out of combat
- Dodge rate reduced 5%

[Sickpuppy]

I'd like to see us given two different stances/focus along the lines of the bloodmage/cleric/shaman.

Lao'Jin Focus - requires 5 jin to shift to this focus
- Raises healing power by 10%
- Increased effectiveness of harmonious bonds
- Damage reduced by 5%
- Increased rate of jin decay when out of combat
- Dodge rate reduced 5%

Ra'Jin Focus - requires 5 jin to shift into this focus
- Increased effectiveness of dissonant bonds
- Damage increased by 10%
- Reduced healing power by 5%
- Increased rate of jin decay when out of combat
- Dodge rate reduced 5%

While I would love to see different stances for disciples and I think would suit the class very much, I can't see them implementing it any time soon. There is _SO_ much to fix with disciples right now, let alone the rest of the classes.

[Charnas]

Aye,

I'd like to see the broken things fixed, bonds working their full duration, etc. I just figured I'd put in some other things I would like to see happen for disciples :) I know its all about priority, but even low priority might make it to the top eventually

[Atis]

I was hoping to see Essence thief brought back as the monk got their missing abilities back. It would be nice to at least get an official word on the ability *last i saw the skill was before the patch that *made all Essene Thief icons the same*, after that patch the skill seemed to disappear.

As previously stated, Niko claims that he/she trained it before it disappeared, and still has the rank 1 version of it, which would suggest it's simply not showing up.

[Sickpuppy]

I was hoping to see Essence thief brought back as the monk got their missing abilities back. It would be nice to at least get an official word on the ability *last i saw the skill was before the patch that *made all Essene Thief icons the same*, after that patch the skill seemed to disappear.

As previously stated, Niko claims that he/she trained it before it disappeared, and still has the rank 1 version of it, which would suggest it's simply not showing up.

Niko already said that he doesn't have the ability. He simply got confused with skill names. Nobody has Essence Thief right now.

[Lyliani]

can someone Sticky this thread please? it's the closest thing we've got to a DSC rep here at Silky Venom
(thanks Sickpuppy)

[Viktery]

Bugs -

Using a Staff as your main weapon, the animation for Falling Petals is either broken or unfinished.

When you cast this spell while using a spell, my Disciple raises the staff above his head, and his leg, as if he is going to thrust it forward or something, stomps his foot, and then thats it. He never actually swings at the mob, and you cant really tell that the attack went off.

Again this is only when you have a blade staff equipped.

Also - Many times Ill crit, but my crit skills wont light up. Is this working as intended? Ive also noticed that unless you have a skill practically maxed in the MAIN skill of the item, you also will not get Falling Petals and Concordant Hand to light up even if you crit.
Hand to Hand - 160 out of Max 160 skill - I crit about 2 times a fight at times. Sometimes I may not get a crit at all, but I know in the next fight im going to get 1 or 2 times to use Falling Petals.
2 Handed Staff(I THINK is the skill name, I may have to log in and out ot get it) at 132 skill, I NEVER crit. Well thats not honestly true, lately, like right after I got over the 130 skill level, Ive been able to get a few falling petals and concordants to go active during fights. But its like every 8th or 15th mob. REAL spread out.
Is this working as intended?

I expect this to substantially go up as my Main combat skill catches up. My actual BladeStaff skill is maxed out.

If I didnt just confuse you, are you finding the same results? Hopefully a Blade saff will become a more viable weapon once I have maxed it. But the skill doesnt seem to go up much anymore for me, even though I have plenty of space. I hope I dont get pigeonholed into using Claws or Handwraps :(

[garath]

Bugs -

Using a Staff as your main weapon, the animation for Falling Petals is either broken or unfinished.

When you cast this spell while using a spell, my Disciple raises the staff above his head, and his leg, as if he is going to thrust it forward or something, stomps his foot, and then thats it. He never actually swings at the mob, and you cant really tell that the attack went off.

Again this is only when you have a blade staff equipped.

Also - Many times Ill crit, but my crit skills wont light up. Is this working as intended? Ive also noticed that unless you have a skill practically maxed in the MAIN skill of the item, you also will not get Falling Petals and Concordant Hand to light up even if you crit.
Hand to Hand - 160 out of Max 160 skill - I crit about 2 times a fight at times. Sometimes I may not get a crit at all, but I know in the next fight im going to get 1 or 2 times to use Falling Petals.
2 Handed Staff(I THINK is the skill name, I may have to log in and out ot get it) at 132 skill, I NEVER crit. Well thats not honestly true, lately, like right after I got over the 130 skill level, Ive been able to get a few falling petals and concordants to go active during fights. But its like every 8th or 15th mob. REAL spread out.
Is this working as intended?

I expect this to substantially go up as my Main combat skill catches up. My actual BladeStaff skill is maxed out.

If I didnt just confuse you, are you finding the same results? Hopefully a Blade saff will become a more viable weapon once I have maxed it. But the skill doesnt seem to go up much anymore for me, even though I have plenty of space. I hope I dont get pigeonholed into using Claws or Handwraps :(

I wasn't critting with a bladestaff even before the big crit changes to disciple. Unfortunately my skill in it has fallen so far behind that I don't think I'll be able to collaborate with your findings for quite some time.

[Viktery]

Here is a good posts that someone dropped over at Ten Ton Hammer, I think it sums it up pretty nice. If someone could get a Dev to respond to this, that would be great. Or if other higher DSC's have a contrary belief/thoughts/experience please say so:

Link: http://forums.tentonhammer.com/showthread.php?t=9070

SNIPPET from original posts -

ow, all that being said, I love my character. I'm 36, with every intention of hitting 50. However I do not see us being a main healer in any group. The whole proximity agro/hate generation they have in this game severely nerfs our possibilites as healers. Maybe if we had the monk feign death and not a 1 minute cooldown feign death, we could more effectively heal by stacking almost all vit and wisdom with dex as a third stat. But then we have no damage to solo, at all. I currently use the Legendary blade staff from the Coterie quest, I believe it's call Zank, Bladestaff of the Ages. I do crit for over 5k with my Palm of Discord(i think), but it's not common enough to make up for the 15k crits that other classes get my level. If I was going to be told shamans were better healers, buffers, dps'ers, and better at soloing I would have been a shaman. But I was under the assumption the martial arts type healer would have the highest damage of all the healers. If I were to start completely over, or if you're just now picking up the game and considering disciple, I would not pick the class. I'd go cleric or shaman if you're looking healer. Cleric for the main healer, shaman for a group that is running two healers. As I've gotten higher level I've noticed my heals are not nearly as good as they were lower level. The other healers heals scale a lot better as they get higher level.

The 5k vs 15k crits is whats worrying me. I heard about this when I first started again after Beta........I swear VG is gonna make me re-roll. I thought this was at LEAST some sort of or close to Finished class. But at the end of the day Im just playing a Beta 3 class, though im paying for this game. I damn near want a free month for wasting my time...but I think i may also just be in a bad mood :(.

Peace.

[Atis]

Niko already said that he doesn't have the ability. He simply got confused with skill names. Nobody has Essence Thief right now.

Truly a shame to hear...
It was a very useful ability for both pvp/pve. Starting to sound more and more like we got a stealth nerf, with them hoping that we would not notice that it was gone.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Added: Feign Death - Sometimes when multiple mob Feign Deaths succeed you will be stuck in combat and some of the mobs will camp your corpse with a combat style animation. Possibly a bug with seperate success rolls on mobs?

Added: Falling Petals - Using a Staff as your main weapon, the animation for Falling Petals is either broken or unfinished.

[terronis]

When grouping with another disciple only one bond is allowed on target reguardless of where it is coming from. So 2 disciples can't both put on leech grasp, or can't even do touch of woe and other do leech. Probly the same case with harmonious but those are hard to test in their broken state. With the short duration, jin cost, and single targetness of bonds they should be able to come from multiple sources.

Shurikens still doing lvl 1 skill shuriken damage.

Dodge doesn't work if target is not offensive target.

Con Hand lighting up when refresh timer isn't met.



General tweak, Allow us to choose which finisher/counter/etc we want to trigger off of the hotkey buttons for same skills. Currently it seems like it will us the first one you get as the quick hit for key command.

[Dashel]

I hope the coming art patch addresses these two things, which are trivial but annoying:

Void hand animation is way too long.

Palm of Discord is a kick animation.

and speaking of PoD, do other discs feel this is better than the 1 2 punch of FP and WLS?

[Solymnar]

*According to Elrar's post in this thread, the only disciple change that was accidental or overshot in the patch on the 7th was the endurance costs. It seems like the current state of the Disciple is Sigil's view of balanced.*

This is a bad joke.

I watched a level 13 cleric whomp the tar out of a level 16 three dotter and his life never went below 25% down.

But the devs say "clerics are where we want them"

And they say "disciples are where we want them"

Well...I want to know exactly what would compel a group unless they are your friends to possibly pick a disciple to heal them?

Our dps is now crap. We have minimal buffs, our few special healing abilities got nerfed to hell. I don't even look forward to logging in my disciple now. It seems like every level I go up my character falls further behind my friends in functionality.

The tank in my group has extremely high end gear and is mitigating/dodging/blocking roughly 45% of damage incomming, but I can't keep him healed if I have to heal anyone else in group because the only decent heals I have are spell heals, our blessed wind is crap, our combo heal takes WAY too long to get off in a group situation, jin flare is far too weak, so all I can do is spam spells and hope that mana doesn't run out. God knows I'm not contributing much to my groups dps and I have a gold weap that is 17% expertise cost.

By comparison my shammy, my wifes bloodmage and every *cough* balanced *cough* cleric I've seen is by leagues more functional. When things get bad they actually have skills to try to keep the group from wiping, with my disc its "sorry guys you're all toast but I might be able to FD? Wish I could have helped you do damage to bring the mob down faster but, meh."

Yeah for disciple...low man on the totem pole. :(

Don't feed me the BS about I hear in some responces of "umm well if you uhh play different it will uhh be betterer..."

I understand my abilities and combos quite well thank you. Like someone else said, every time I log in I feel strongly encourage to reroll to a different functional healing class. That sucks.

I keep hoping that Sigil will wake up one day and say "wow...disciples are screwed, they have the weakest healing, gimped dps and nothing besides FD to bring to the table"

The joke between me and my friends is that brad or jeff must be playing a cleric.

[Dashel]

*According to Elrar's post in this thread, the only disciple change that was accidental or overshot in the patch on the 7th was the endurance costs. It seems like the current state of the Disciple is Sigil's view of balanced.*

This is a bad joke.



Let me talk you down from the ledge here a bit. Early levels of Disciple are really going to suck I'm sure. I got through them before the great nerf of 2-7, so I can only imagine the suck of it. However, that said, I'd much rather see Disciples focus on fixes for us rather than tearing down other classes. You dont have to look far to find other classes looking to tear us down... think about that for a while before you call for Cleric nerfs.

Not sure what level you are now, but it does get better. Level 18 you'll get Clarity, Favor of the Crow and Knife Hand. All key skills. 22 is Sun fist and White Lotus Strike which help a bit. And 26 you'll get Blooming Ridge Hand which will really pick you up a LOT in both solo and group situations.

Again though, early levels, I can only imagine the level of suck.

[Koxo]

Dont know if this is working correctly but we can only have two bonds active at any given time meaning I can have one Harmonious on a group member and one Dissonant on a Mob or two harmonious on two different group members. Just seems like we should have the ability to have at least 3 one for the mob and two for the group members if having bonds is suppose to compensate for our lack of utilities only being to able to buff two group members and not be able to debuff the mob is just not right with the little utility we have.

[Solymnar]

Let me talk you down from the ledge here a bit. Early levels of Disciple are really going to suck I'm sure. I got through them before the great nerf of 2-7, so I can only imagine the suck of it. However, that said, I'd much rather see Disciples focus on fixes for us rather than tearing down other classes. You dont have to look far to find other classes looking to tear us down... think about that for a while before you call for Cleric nerfs.

Not sure what level you are now, but it does get better. Level 18 you'll get Clarity, Favor of the Crow and Knife Hand. All key skills. 22 is Sun fist and White Lotus Strike which help a bit. And 26 you'll get Blooming Ridge Hand which will really pick you up a LOT in both solo and group situations.

Again though, early levels, I can only imagine the level of suck.

Dash, I understand your excellent good intentions, the reason why I reference the other healing classes is because by way of comparison I can not see what we bring to the table beyond FD compared to the other healing classes.

In terms of calling for cleric nerfs, well even other people in my guild who play clerics freely admit they are overpowered, heavy armor, increadibly strong buffs, excellent healing, reasonable DPS, the only thing they are missing is a run speed buff, but then again we don't get that either... :(

If our class existed in a vacuum comparing it only to itself would be fine, but this is a group game and there are three other (from my experience) superior healing classes, one of them (cleric) particularily so.

Ignoring this, consider in a nutshell that you essentially just said anyone who would like to play a disciple will have to wait until they hit level 26 before the class is pretty functional, but even then if you look at it the numbers just don't add up in our favor.

The bottom line is that if things go south in a fight, the shammy, bloodmage, and cleric have ways to help recover the situation, where as the disc FDs and crosses their fingers. :(

The insult on top of that is that our DPS is crap as well, but apparently that is sigil's new vision for our class?

It makes me bitter when I watch my friends wipe on my disc knowing that I could do more than just FD to recover the situation if my main was a different healer. I know that comes through in my writing, which is a shame but there it is.

So I guess my ultimate challenge is, "why should a group pick a disciple when there are three other healing classes that bring more to the table? Especially when the group gets in a bad situation."

I love the concept of our class, but at the end of the day we just don't cut it compared to the others.

[Sickpuppy]

Dont know if this is working correctly but we can only have two bonds active at any given time meaning I can have one Harmonious on a group member and one Dissonant on a Mob or two harmonious on two different group members. Just seems like we should have the ability to have at least 3 one for the mob and two for the group members if having bonds is suppose to compensate for our lack of utilities only being to able to buff two group members and not be able to debuff the mob is just not right with the little utility we have.

My personal opinion is that there should not be a limit. One per target but other than that you can have as many as you want. Right now they are only designed to last 60 seconds and cost 2 jin each. It will be hard enough to maintain 4+ and heal a group at the same time. If you are good enough to be able to do that you should be rewarded for it.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Changed: Symbol of Unity - Disappears if somebody uses it in combat, this should give an error message instead. Res stones also don't work when the player is in a different chunk (and they get consumed trying).

Removed: Sun and Moon Discipline - Has a mana cost (which makes no sense seeing as it restores mana)

Removed: Martial Swords - Sometimes bugs bare hand. After unequipping you will continue to hit based on your martial sword/2h skill. Relogging fixes this issue.

edit: Also, since the recent changes to Astral Walk, can anyone confirm that some dungeons still aren't flagged for it? I figured they may have stealth fixed this at the same time.

[Sickpuppy]

Dont know if this is working correctly but we can only have two bonds active at any given time meaning I can have one Harmonious on a group member and one Dissonant on a Mob or two harmonious on two different group members. Just seems like we should have the ability to have at least 3 one for the mob and two for the group members if having bonds is suppose to compensate for our lack of utilities only being to able to buff two group members and not be able to debuff the mob is just not right with the little utility we have.

Someone wrote somewhere that this was a feature and that the number of bonds you can maintain goes up with level (like jin).

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Added: Paralyzing Touch - This skill doesn't always light up after a feint even when you have aggro on the mob.

[Sickpuppy]

Looks like another week and another patch gone with no disciple fixes/changes at all. Kinda funny when you consider that Disciples are by far the most broken class right now. They didn't even bother to nerf Clerics......

I'll have a bag of whatever the devs are smoking please.

[Solymnar]

Looks like another week and another patch gone with no disciple fixes/changes at all. Kinda funny when you consider that Disciples are by far the most broken class right now. They didn't even bother to nerf Clerics......

Of course not, instead they fixed a cleric ability and a bunch of blood mage ones.

Didn't you get the memo to disciples? It came strait from the devs.

Interpreted properly it says the following:

"Bend over, touch your toes, grit your teeth, and expect no lube nor love. You are broken and gimped as intended."



My desire to log in my disc has receeded yet one notch further. :(

[Laiboch]

This is how it was from beta 3 get use to it.

My sugestion is a Dev should start a Disciple on a pvp server and get a taste of what its like to be spending half the money you make repairing your gear all the time and then tell us the class is working as intended.

My sugestion in the next big gaming convention is Brad and the other dev's should avoid any table that says "Disciple" on it. History is repeating its self.

Brad sells the community an awesome idea, but then he fails to deliver. He messes up on classes and cant get balance right then says things are how they should be. All we have left is for Sony to take over the game and boot brad so the cycle can start again.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. From my experience they only dispel when the target is getting attacked and they dispel very quickly when they are.


Try to test this if you can. I've been using bonds on my group members who aren't getting hit. If they by chance get hit then the bond will usually dispel. Otherwise it seems to last the full duration.

[sezyboy]

Updated:

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. From my experience they only dispel when the target is getting attacked and they dispel very quickly when they are.


Try to test this if you can. I've been using bonds on my group members who aren't getting hit. If they by chance get hit then the bond will usually dispel. Otherwise it seems to last the full duration.

i play with bonds every time and i have tried that. I tried a gift of anguish on a person that isnt getting hit and it doesnt last full duration everytime. Of course this doesnt really help KoS even if it were true. Will keep playing with them though to try and pinpoint it more.

[Therian]

I've played disciple for a long time now. It was my main in beta, it's my main now. I'm not going to stop playing it, as I'm attached to my character, but I do have to agree that we have card-carrying underdog status, not only among the healers. I am holding out hope that we are still in the same 'untuned' state that we've always been, and that we get a little love in future.

Someone asked me, way back when disciples were first released in beta, if it was true that we had really low dps. Yep. Then he said: You must get some really cool stuff to make up for that…

So, what "really cool" stuff does the disciple have?

- Near-unlimited heals in a 'good situation' battle. [All healers have the same core group of energy heals, then class specialities on top. So long as we can properly use our specialties (melee attacks with bonus heals), we pretty much can go for hours in standard battles.]
- The ability to feign death, both to shed aggro and to save from wipes.
- Nice-looking melee moves.

That's the closest I could come to 'cool' for disciple.

At the same time, cool stuff the disciple does not have:

- Utility – outside the rez/summon set given to all healers, disciples cannot: levitate, transform, invis/stealth, mez, snare, breathe underwater and has no pets.
- Useful ranged attacks of any form.
- DPS even remotely comparable to other classes.
- Nukes (I think there may be one floating around the higher levels).
- Survivability. [One of the main concepts of disciple mentioned back in beta was survivability – that was apparently our key defining feature. And it's true, against an even-level standard mob, we are very hard to kill – we can outlast any (low damaging, non-spell casting) thing we can hit. But in any dangerous party situation we're toast. We cannot armor tank, feign is extremely limited and often disbelieved, and 'dodge tanking' is iffy at best when facing multiple mobs. And put us up against a healing mob and we simply can't damage it enough to kill it.]

We also, of course, have major issues:

- Broken skills. Can I have working bonds please?
- Can't melee situations. There are a great many mobs which use stun and ae attacks. In these situations, we either accept those penalties or sit back and thus lose all jin-based skills and all attack based heals.
- Useful aggro management. I can't tell if Soul Cutter is totally broken, only works on the mob you're hitting, not the mob hitting you, or is 'working as intended', but feign seems to be my only real method of shedding aggro once I've got it. And if you're in a situation where you need to spam heal the main tank, lying down only to get back up and spam heal to gain all the aggro back isn't truly helpful.

We even face a large number of quests which have no useable rewards, or rewards which are trying to balance between monk and disciple and thus aren't really interesting to either class.

As I said, I do hope they're still looking at the class. But back when I heard that our core feature was 'survivability' and held that up to the "cool stuff" question, I couldn't resist rephrasing 'survivability' as "takes a very long time to kill mobs, can't do anything much else, but usually lives through it". I can live without being the highest dps healer, but it's no fun being by far the lowest, without any 'cool stuff' to make up for it.

[Sickpuppy]

I personally have no doubt that Disciples will eventually get balanced. The worry for me is when will this happen? It's fairly obvious that the devs have paid absolutely no attention to Disciples since launch, which is very worrying when you look at the state of the class. I can only hope that now Rogue has had two massive patches fixing them up that it's our turn next and that it won't take another two months before we finally get the fixes and balance changes we need.

And please dear god give us a class lead so we can at least get some idea of what is or is not going on with our class.

[Laiboch]

Point 3 using more than one discordant bond at once.

After the last patch this seems to be partially fixed.

Reproducible. Simply by clicking any other discordant bond after a few clicks it will launch on the target. If you click it again it turns off. Before the last patch you could click it till it stuck and it would not come off at all.

Fix: Allow disciples to use their bonds in any way they chose. If you want to target all of the bonds you can use at once on a single target then so be it.

As for a class lead we had one in beta. They didn’t tell them anything then and probably won’t tell them anything in the future. Sorry if I am being a pessimist, but when you see the same thing over and over it’s hard to see it otherwise.

[sezyboy]

Point 3 using more than one discordant bond at once.

After the last patch this seems to be partially fixed.

Reproducible. Simply by clicking any other discordant bond after a few clicks it will launch on the target. If you click it again it turns off. Before the last patch you could click it till it stuck and it would not come off at all.

Fix: Allow disciples to use their bonds in any way they chose. If you want to target all of the bonds you can use at once on a single target then so be it.

As for a class lead we had one in beta. They didn’t tell them anything then and probably won’t tell them anything in the future. Sorry if I am being a pessimist, but when you see the same thing over and over it’s hard to see it otherwise.

I love how we dont have this info during the patch notes and have to "Test" it ourselves. That of course doesnt even guarantee that its actually working. *sigh.
I always joke with my friends that after patches i have to go test my dsc skills again. :rolleyes:

[Sickpuppy]

Point 3 using more than one discordant bond at once.

After the last patch this seems to be partially fixed.

Reproducible. Simply by clicking any other discordant bond after a few clicks it will launch on the target. If you click it again it turns off. Before the last patch you could click it till it stuck and it would not come off at all.

Fix: Allow disciples to use their bonds in any way they chose. If you want to target all of the bonds you can use at once on a single target then so be it.

As for a class lead we had one in beta. They didn’t tell them anything then and probably won’t tell them anything in the future. Sorry if I am being a pessimist, but when you see the same thing over and over it’s hard to see it otherwise.

AFAIK, this actually hasn't changed. The bug where the bonds "stick" on and you can't even cancel them was a bug with only certain mobs. If I remember correctly it happens when the mob resisted your bond. You then can't cancel it and recast - it's stuck till the timer runs out. This is a seperate bug and doesn't relate to the multiple bond bug. I haven't noticed the bond "stick" bug since the patch but that's not to say it's not still there. It's something I've only rarely seen.

[Sickpuppy]

Well it looks like the upcoming patch (http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/newsArchive.vm?id=072&section=News) is not going to have any direct Disciple changes. Unfortunately a "fix" will indirectly reduce our damage output by at least 25%:

- Melee and Ranged direct attacks have had a bug fixed that was causing them to do around double damage. Direct attacks are one type of melee attack that do not use weapon damage and strength damage directly, the are most often used with abilities that do not have damage as their focus.

From what I undestand attributes were not meant to affect "deals X damage" spells and abilities (like Falling Petal and White Lotus Strike). I'm not sure if this will affect the +x damage part of "x% of weapon damage +x damage" abilities but if it does we will barely do 50% of our current damage output (which isn't a lot). Either way, incoming dps nerf.

[Shawnsan]

Updated:

Changed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. From my experience they only dispel when the target is getting attacked and they dispel very quickly when they are.


Try to test this if you can. I've been using bonds on my group members who aren't getting hit. If they by chance get hit then the bond will usually dispel. Otherwise it seems to last the full duration.

I can confirm that this is the case in most of my testing as well. It also seems to go away on any self induced damage (like the Bloodmage health to mana ability).

[Talim]

Sweet!

We needed more nerfs.

It would be a whole lot less painful if they'd simply delete the disciple class as a whole instead of letting new players roll them not knowing they're being slowly nerfed out of existance.

[Laiboch]

AFAIK, this actually hasn't changed. The bug where the bonds "stick" on and you can't even cancel them was a bug with only certain mobs. If I remember correctly it happens when the mob resisted your bond. You then can't cancel it and recast - it's stuck till the timer runs out. This is a seperate bug and doesn't relate to the multiple bond bug. I haven't noticed the bond "stick" bug since the patch but that's not to say it's not still there. It's something I've only rarely seen.

This has nothing to do with them being resisted and not being able to remove them because of this.

The rules are 1 bond 1 target.

Take this as what I mean. You cast Discor bond 1. It sticks. Then you pick the next one and you click it as fast as you can. You start getting error messages such as:
You can’t do that while looting
You can’t do that while flying
Then you get a debug – notice
Then red text about only having one active bond on a target. When that happens your second bond sticks to the mob. Then you go to your third bond and do it again. Using this you could get all 3 bonds on the same offensive target. Even if you clicked the bond that just stuck to the mob it will not drop till the mob dies or the bond expires.

Now you can still do it, but if you click it again after it lands it will click off the bond.

[Sickpuppy]

Strange bug. I've never experienced it as you described.

[Sickpuppy]

Update:

Added: Blessed Wind - Blessed Wind's heal part has infinite range within a chunk.

Changed: Paralyzing Touch - This skill doesn't always light up after a feint even when you have aggro on the mob. It always lights up when no other person is on the mob's aggro list.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Added: Endowment of Balance - Does not work.

[Therian]

Updated:

Added: Endowment of Balance - Does not work.

Can you detail how it doesn't work? I can get the Endowment of Balance 'buff' icon to pop up when using the sequence correctly. Do you mean that it has no meaningful effect?

I've noticed that when I deploy it in a group situation it doesn't seem to come up very often, but this appears to be because the hit which 'uses it up' lands before the icon even gets a chance to be visible.

I've yet to be able to identify whether the effect is occuring, but the icon at least comes up.

[Sickpuppy]

Can you detail how it doesn't work? I can get the Endowment of Balance 'buff' icon to pop up when using the sequence correctly. Do you mean that it has no meaningful effect?

I've noticed that when I deploy it in a group situation it doesn't seem to come up very often, but this appears to be because the hit which 'uses it up' lands before the icon even gets a chance to be visible.

I've yet to be able to identify whether the effect is occuring, but the icon at least comes up.

The buff comes up and even gets removed when the target gets hit, however they still take full damage. I'm guessing no damage is even returned, although I haven't been able to test (kinda hard in a full group when the damage returned is so insignificant).

[Therian]

Thanks - I wasn't sure whether it was one of the skills that was purely broken, one which simply didn't provide combat feedback, or one whose effect was so negligible that I might as well not bother using it.

[Laiboch]

Anyone notice that falling petal and white lotus strike were not putting up a buff icon? Maybe it was just me, but yesterday they did not seem to come up and were not adding to my buff bar. Set off the chain at least 6 times just to check, but I did not see those buffs come up once.

[Dashel]

They were coming up for me solo yesterday.

[Laiboch]

Its working again after the reboot today. Might have been a bug when our server crashed during double xp weekend.

[Therian]

The buff comes up and even gets removed when the target gets hit, however they still take full damage. I'm guessing no damage is even returned, although I haven't been able to test (kinda hard in a full group when the damage returned is so insignificant).

I tested this again last night, and in the combat spam there is a message telling me the mob's attack backlashed.

So at least part of this is working. The pitiful amount involved does put the endowment in the "not really worth it" category for me. Might be useful for a slow and hard hitting boss mob, but otherwise a sequence that uses up my Jin for so little return isn't worth it to me.

[Dashel]

Hopefully this was addressed in todays patch but.... I'd really like to see all of our entire suite of 3 (count em, three!) buffs have animation, particles, and most importantly report a message that it successfully buffed the intended target.

I think it's Grasshopper that currently doesnt report, and it's just an annoying thing I notice every time I buff a group.

[Viktery]

For the love of god. Will one of the Admins make this a sticky already.

[Sickpuppy]

Update:

Changed: Endowment of Balance - Deals damage back to the attacker but does not reduce the attackers attack by 50%.

Added: Blooming Ridge Hand - Attacking a mob with the BRH debuff active on it causes the mob to generate heal aggro instead of the disciple. This can cause NPC wars.

Added: Wisdom of the Grasshopper - This buff doesn't give a buff status message in chat windows.

Added: Paralyzing Touch - Requires a weapon to be equipped.

[Drool]

In addition to Falling Petal not affecting Blessed Wind or Endowment of Life, neither does the Dark Elf Racial Pet's buff "Blessing of Haelifur". Supposedly this gives +10% on all incoming heals.

Neg.

The pet buff doesn't affect Blessed Wind, EoL, or Energy heals.

Disc needs some love.

[Sickpuppy]

In addition to Falling Petal not affecting Blessed Wind or Endowment of Life, neither does the Dark Elf Racial Pet's buff "Blessing of Haelifur". Supposedly this gives +10% on all incoming heals.

Neg.

The pet buff doesn't affect Blessed Wind, EoL, or Energy heals.

Disc needs some love.

Could you retest Endowment of Life? All 3 of my +heal buffs are definately affecting it for me. Also, as stated in the bug list, +heal buffs don't affect any heal over time spells at all.

[Rali]

There is a bug now which doubles our auto attack damage.
Normaly you cant use a non weapon item like focus or totem in primary hand for fighting, you char doesnt attack at all.
But when you equip it while already attacking, your attack speed goes to 1.0 or something and gives you much more hits/minute.

[Spottycat]

Hey, Sickpuppy

I saw you made reference to Blessed Wind doing extra healing when you use it with a crit (Clarity)

Knife Hand does the same thing actually, but with the DoT. I'm pretty sure that this skill is working as intended, minus the not setting off Petal/Lotus like it should.

Regen effects should set off Petal/Lotus. I know that a Cleric's "Renewal" does, and so does Concordant Hand's (or is it Palm.. the second one) Regen effect.
I can't recall if other regens were doing it too. I'll have to check Shaman buffs and druid regen to see if they work too.

[Sickpuppy]

Hey, Sickpuppy

I saw you made reference to Blessed Wind doing extra healing when you use it with a crit (Clarity)

Knife Hand does the same thing actually, but with the DoT. I'm pretty sure that this skill is working as intended, minus the not setting off Petal/Lotus like it should.
Actually all healing skills that are part of a damaging spell (blessed wind and both concordant finishers) have a crit roll on them. Use clarity->x->concordant hand and watch the crit heal on concordant hand. A nice 3k group heal. The reason I'm pretty sure it's a bug is because no other heals have crit rolls.

Regen effects should set off Petal/Lotus. I know that a Cleric's "Renewal" does, and so does Concordant Hand's (or is it Palm.. the second one) Regen effect.
I can't recall if other regens were doing it too. I'll have to check Shaman buffs and druid regen to see if they work too.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "set off Petal/Lotus" but if you mean "be affected by Petal/Lotus" then:
The only heal over time spells I've tested with +heal buffs are Alleviate, Blessed Wind and Concordant Palm, none of which are affected by them. From that I made the assumption that no heal over time spells work with them, which is very likely but could be incorrect. I doubt +regen buffs would be affected by it and if they are then it's most likely a bug. I'm almost certain Renewal isn't affected by the +heal (I probably would have seen my health going up 200 every tick) but I've never specifcally checked.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Added: Paralyzing Sweep - Only stuns one mob.

Removed: Harmonious bonds - These dispel randomly from people. From my experience they only dispel when the target is getting attacked and they dispel very quickly when they are.

[Solymnar]

Actually all healing skills that are part of a damaging spell (blessed wind and both concordant finishers) have a crit roll on them. Use clarity->x->concordant hand and watch the crit heal on concordant hand. A nice 3k group heal. The reason I'm pretty sure it's a bug is because no other heals have crit rolls.


Those healing crits are not bugs. Heals triggered by attacks and attacking spells (BM) have a chance to get a crit heal triggered off crit attack. The trade off is you can miss and heal for nothing at all so its quite fair.

Sure you may crit and do a large group heal, but you may also miss and wipe your group. ;)

[Therian]

My harmonious bonds seem to be working currently (very interesting playing wtih them!), but my main issue with them is when they expire after 60 seconds their icon remains up.

[givionte]

My harmonious bonds seem to be working currently (very interesting playing wtih them!), but my main issue with them is when they expire after 60 seconds their icon remains up.

You may want to look again, harmonious bonds are definitely broken still, unless a stealth update last night fixed them.

[Nizrenan]

Stealth nerf fixed bonds apperantly (cannot confirm as I haven't used them), and reduced the cost of SC (confirmed). You'd think they'd want to broadcast those fixes loudly in the patch notes ;)

[Atis]

Just gonna give a quick breakdown on my thoughts of the Disciple atm.

Healing, overall we are fine. We have the best aoe heal in the game, a OT heal which when stacked with FallingPetal/White Lotus and Purity, gives about 380 hp per hit *should be over 400 with blooming Ridge Hand IV at 50*, in addition of course to the HoT from blessing wind and Kiss of the Heaven *finally*, I can keep up a main target is absolute ease now, especially once I throw on touch of the ox.

Buffs/Utility - At first, I used to complain how we had so few buffs *only 3*, and how our bonds even fell short of the utility that clerics offered to groups *group end+15%dmg etc..*. Then I realized though that if our utility was brought up to the same level as clerics, that we would just be a cleric clone, and have no rights to the damage we currently deserve.

Basically I look at it like this.

You want a Healer with lots of group buffs that enhance various aspects? Get a cleric.
You want a Healer with lots of utility such as speed, a bit melee, a bit caster, with various buffs depending on their route *ie endurance with bear, dex/wpn haste with rakuur etc..*, go shaman.
You want a Healer with some caster DPS? Go Bloodmage
Then of course you want a Healer with some melee damage? Disciple.

Problem is that we can't have everything. healing + some descent DPS will be our forte, where as healing + buffs are a clerics etc..

so in other words what am I saying? I think we should leave the bonds *now that they are working* where they are. Fine tuning is expected, but now that they are working and we can have as many as we want *of course only 1 cast of each bond*, it's enough to give us some tools, while healing and hopefully soon dealing moderate damage, while not stepping on cleric or shaman territory.

Infact, the ONLY thing I would change *aside from a dps increase which I hope is coming soon...*, is Gift of Vitae. I used Gift of vitae on the ranger in my group, and while he loved it, I had no endurance to build up jin or use my attacks, which SEVERELY hindered my healing capabilities. Infact, the only hope I had was to use leech grasp.. which of course means I cannot use touch of the ox on the mob.

I would like to see it so that it does not drain our own endurance while using gift of vitae.. or.. scale it down. Ie we give them 10 endurance every 2 seconds, but it only drains us of 5. I don't want to see what happens at level 50 when I will be losing 15 endurance every 2 seconds.. I won't have any for endowment of life, or blooming hand etc... even with leech's grasp. I think 5/10 and 5/15 would be fair.

[Solymnar]

I would like to see it so that it does not drain our own endurance while using gift of vitae.. or.. scale it down. Ie we give them 10 endurance every 2 seconds, but it only drains us of 5. I don't want to see what happens at level 50 when I will be losing 15 endurance every 2 seconds.. I won't have any for endowment of life, or blooming hand etc... even with leech's grasp. I think 5/10 and 5/15 would be fair.

Its a situationally useful bond. Particularly if you are hanging back to avoid AOE damage you can load someone else on the front line with massive end regen while using spells and throwing shuriken, moreso viable for vit/wis/dex builds.

Also can be used to help a tank establish solid aggro a bit faster.

I agree that it would be much more widely useful if it wasn't taxing our own end "quite" as hard as it does, but it can have its places in current form.

Would of course be better still if you could hit the same person with 10% damage boost AND end ;)

But yeah I suspect now that they are going to actually get used they may get tweaked down the road.

[Sickpuppy]

Those healing crits are not bugs. Heals triggered by attacks and attacking spells (BM) have a chance to get a crit heal triggered off crit attack. The trade off is you can miss and heal for nothing at all so its quite fair.

Sure you may crit and do a large group heal, but you may also miss and wipe your group. ;)
Disciple's heals that are part of a damaging attack trigger without having to hit the target. The crit roll on the heal is also seperate (i.e. you can crit the heal even if you don't crit or even miss the damaging part). Either way you look at it heal criticals are bugged. Either all heals should crit, all heals shouldn't crit or heal crits on damage spells should be directly based off the damage component of that spell. This is not the case at the moment.
You may want to look again, harmonious bonds are definitely broken still, unless a stealth update last night fixed them.
They got stealth fixed in the most recent patch.
My harmonious bonds seem to be working currently (very interesting playing wtih them!), but my main issue with them is when they expire after 60 seconds their icon remains up.
I've never experienced this bug myself. Any other details you can provide?
Its a situationally useful bond. Particularly if you are hanging back to avoid AOE damage you can load someone else on the front line with massive end regen while using spells and throwing shuriken, moreso viable for vit/wis/dex builds.

Also can be used to help a tank establish solid aggro a bit faster.

I agree that it would be much more widely useful if it wasn't taxing our own end "quite" as hard as it does, but it can have its places in current form.

Would of course be better still if you could hit the same person with 10% damage boost AND end ;)

But yeah I suspect now that they are going to actually get used they may get tweaked down the road.
When you look at the other endurance regen abilities (renewal anyone?) it's fairly obvious that Gift of Vitae needs to be tweaked. -5 endurance instead of -10 would make it slightly better. -0 endurance would make it a very good skill but, imo, not overpowered, considering it's a 60 second buff that can only be cast on one target and it removes the ability to put another harmonious bond on that target.

[Sickpuppy]

Also I experienced a damage increase in soul cutter since the patch yesterday. It's now my highest damage attack. I think the deaggro component _might_ be fixed but need more people to test it to be sure. I've had a couple of instances where aggro has gone off me when I've used it. It's a fairly hard bug to test really... ;)

[Kaching]

Disciple's heals that are part of a damaging attack trigger without having to hit the target. The crit roll on the heal is also seperate (i.e. you can crit the heal even if you don't crit or even miss the damaging part). Either way you look at it heal criticals are bugged. Either all heals should crit, all heals shouldn't crit or heal crits on damage spells should be directly based off the damage component of that spell.
Why? Granted, it seemed straightforward that crit hit -> crit heal, and no crit hit => normal heal. But to me it seems like a design decision, and not a bug, that heal get a separate roll.
Besides, that way you don't get double extra aggro from crits (more damage + more healing) ;)

[Sickpuppy]

But to me it seems like a design decision, and not a bug, that heal get a separate roll.

So why do no other heals experience criticals? I can't think of any reason why it would be a design decision. It wouldn't really make any sense at all.

[Therian]

I've never experienced this bug myself. Any other details you can provide?

With both the health regen bond and the damage increase bond they have a duration listed of 60 seconds. When you apply the bond two things happen:

1. Two icons appear near your buff area showing that you're maintaining the bond.
2. A little plus appears on your hotkey.

After the 60 seconds expires, the effect (presumably) ceases, and the plus disappears from the hotkey, but the bond maintained icon remains up. Not a major issue, just annoying.

[Kaching]

So why do no other heals experience criticals? I can't think of any reason why it would be a design decision. It wouldn't really make any sense at all.
Hmm... good point. Although if you had asked me, I would've sworn that at least concordant hand had crit on occasion. But I guess I'm wrong there?

[Sailormoontw]

Buffs/Utility - At first, I used to complain how we had so few buffs *only 3*, and how our bonds even fell short of the utility that clerics offered to groups *group end+15%dmg etc..*. Then I realized though that if our utility was brought up to the same level as clerics, that we would just be a cleric clone, and have no rights to the damage we currently deserve.

Basically I look at it like this.

You want a Healer with lots of group buffs that enhance various aspects? Get a cleric.
You want a Healer with lots of utility such as speed, a bit melee, a bit caster, with various buffs depending on their route *ie endurance with bear, dex/wpn haste with rakuur etc..*, go shaman.
You want a Healer with some caster DPS? Go Bloodmage
Then of course you want a Healer with some melee damage? Disciple.

Problem is that we can't have everything. healing + some descent DPS will be our forte, where as healing + buffs are a clerics etc..

so in other words what am I saying? I think we should leave the bonds *now that they are working* where they are. Fine tuning is expected, but now that they are working and we can have as many as we want *of course only 1 cast of each bond*, it's enough to give us some tools, while healing and hopefully soon dealing moderate damage, while not stepping on cleric or shaman territory.

Infact, the ONLY thing I would change *aside from a dps increase which I hope is coming soon...*, is Gift of Vitae. I used Gift of vitae on the ranger in my group, and while he loved it, I had no endurance to build up jin or use my attacks, which SEVERELY hindered my healing capabilities. Infact, the only hope I had was to use leech grasp.. which of course means I cannot use touch of the ox on the mob.

I would like to see it so that it does not drain our own endurance while using gift of vitae.. or.. scale it down. Ie we give them 10 endurance every 2 seconds, but it only drains us of 5. I don't want to see what happens at level 50 when I will be losing 15 endurance every 2 seconds.. I won't have any for endowment of life, or blooming hand etc... even with leech's grasp. I think 5/10 and 5/15 would be fair.

1. Clerics' group endurance regeneration and +15% buff is a lot better than Disciples', not to mention they get it earlier.

2. Clerics' divine attack is good, if they are on offensive mode, and they get an AOE spell too. They can deal more dps than Disciples if they want.

3. I agree Gift of Vitae shouldn't drain our own endurance. We get it at that late level compared to clerics, and single target only, why should it drain our endurance?

[Atis]

1. Clerics' group endurance regeneration and +15% buff is a lot better than Disciples', not to mention they get it earlier.

2. Clerics' divine attack is good, if they are on offensive mode, and they get an AOE spell too. They can deal more dps than Disciples if they want.

3. I agree Gift of Vitae shouldn't drain our own endurance. We get it at that late level compared to clerics, and single target only, why should it drain our endurance?

Cleric stuff is of course better, but we can't expect to be as good in the buff area, and still expect to outdamage them. All i'm saying is that if our utilization and buffs are going to suffer compared to the other healers, then we by all means deserve to have higher dps.

[Sailormoontw]

Cleric stuff is of course better, but we can't expect to be as good in the buff area, and still expect to outdamage them. All i'm saying is that if our utilization and buffs are going to suffer compared to the other healers, then we by all means deserve to have higher dps.

Nope, shamans and bloodmages outdamage clerics too, and they have good buffs.

[Sickpuppy]

Cleric stuff is of course better, but we can't expect to be as good in the buff area, and still expect to outdamage them. All i'm saying is that if our utilization and buffs are going to suffer compared to the other healers, then we by all means deserve to have higher dps.

Really, Gift of Vitae's effect SHOULD be better than renew since, like I said in my post before, it's single target, last 60 seconds and replaces other potential buffs disciple's could put on the target. Even if Gift of Vitae's effect was made to be better than renew, the overall spell still wouldn't be better because of the other properties of it.

[Sickpuppy]

With both the health regen bond and the damage increase bond they have a duration listed of 60 seconds. When you apply the bond two things happen:

1. Two icons appear near your buff area showing that you're maintaining the bond.
2. A little plus appears on your hotkey.

After the 60 seconds expires, the effect (presumably) ceases, and the plus disappears from the hotkey, but the bond maintained icon remains up. Not a major issue, just annoying.

I meant any reproducability steps. My buff icons have never stuck after the buff runs out.

[Cashew]

I have a list of tweaks I'd love to see added:

1. Baiting Strike - Rework
Uses 1 Jin - Does same damage as Soul Cutter - Adds Same hate to defensive target as Soul Cutter removes. It makes no sense for this to be a 1 second casting cost.

2. Feint - Tweak
Instead of stopping attacks. Uses 2 Jin. Stuns target for X seconds.

3. Clarity - tweak
Make it usable with Finishing moves. As is, if you use clarity it will reset your chain.

4. Dissonant Bonds - Fix # of bonds able to maintain
As is you can maintain as many dissonant bonds as you have mobs and bonds to give out. Ie. 3 Mobs you can put a Touch of Woe on one, Leech on another, and Ox on the third. While you can only maintain 1 bond per mob, you can maintain more than 1.

5. Dissonant Bonds - Fix Toggle
If your mob resists a bond you shouldn't have to toggle the bond off and on. You should be able to just cast again. Minor, but it annoys me.

6. Dissonant Bonds - Fix Error Message
Error messages involving dissonant bonds display - "You are already looting" I'm pretty sure tha'ts not the righ tone.

7. Feign Death - Tweak
30 seconds would be nicer.

8. Feign Death - Fix
Factioned Mobs will actually start to attack each other if you feign and fail. It's kinda funny, I've turned an entire dungeon into a melee royale before as a group of bugged mobs ran around killing things.

9. Feign Death - Fix
When you are feigning against mutliple mobs if your primary hated mob accepts the feign as real, but others don't, then most of the time they just stand over you not attacking.

Generic Things I think we need:
Cripple Attack - One of the hardest parts of being a disciple is when mobs run. Our DPS isn't enough to keep up with their heal rate, let alone their run speed. Since we lack almost any range, it'd be nice to have some sort of cripple attack/bond so that we aren't chasing full speed mobs whittling them down. Also, why do mobs regen massively fast when they start to run like they are out of combat?

[Nizrenan]

Also I experienced a damage increase in soul cutter since the patch yesterday. It's now my highest damage attack. I think the deaggro component _might_ be fixed but need more people to test it to be sure.I can confirm the damage increase on SC. With that and the cost reduction alone, it's worth casting again, and often :cool: . I've also seen it help with aggro control as well, or seemed to at least. I was duoing with a warrior the other day, and if I had aggro, it seemed it would take a long while for him to get it off... so I started using SC exclusively when I had it and within a couple/few of hits with SC, aggro would switch back to the warrior. But as you said, it's a tough one to test for sure.

[Sickpuppy]

New test patch notes (http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/launchpad/updates_test.vm) are up. Looks like a lot of classes got a damage boost. Lots of class fixes. Disciple's change is:

- Disciple – Essence Thief has had its damage increased

TIMMAH!

[Atis]

New test patch notes (http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/launchpad/updates_test.vm) are up. Looks like a lot of classes got a damage boost. Lots of class fixes. Disciple's change is:

- Disciple – Essence Thief has had its damage increased

TIMMAH!

I'm still holding out hoping that we get our damage increase *they even buffed up a few shaman damage abilities*


As for Essence thief .. o.O

[Kaching]

New test patch notes (http://vgplayers.station.sony.com/launchpad/updates_test.vm) are up. Looks like a lot of classes got a damage boost. Lots of class fixes. Disciple's change is:

- Disciple – Essence Thief has had its damage increased

TIMMAH!

So uh... did I miss something? Over the last patches, we got:
a) a new animation for essence thief
b) increased damage for essence thief
Now what's missing is
c) actually put essence thief back into the game?

if so... gg sigil o.O

[Sickpuppy]

So uh... did I miss something? Over the last patches, we got:
a) a new animation for essence thief
b) increased damage for essence thief
Now what's missing is
c) actually put essence thief back into the game?

if so... gg sigil o.O

I guess it's possible that it's a skill you learn from mobs. I've fought most mobs in the world and haven't found it as of yet but who knows.....

I'm guessing, looking at the last week or two of patching, that no devs or GMs play disciples. I mean, I know a lot of the devs play in their spare time and obviously there's lots of other classes in the dev team (like rangers, kinda goes without saying when you look at the state of the class), but I still haven't seen any dev that plays a disciple. Then again, I can't say I blame them. xD

[Sailormoontw]

So uh... did I miss something? Over the last patches, we got:
a) a new animation for essence thief
b) increased damage for essence thief
Now what's missing is
c) actually put essence thief back into the game?

if so... gg sigil o.O

Essence Thief might be one of the learned abilities

[ramar]

I'd like to see Feint (and the 30sec mez counterattack) working in group situatino too. Actually, it is totally useless.

[Laiboch]

Bumping this because it is a damn fine list of actual problems.

[Zogy]

Why isn't this sticky?

[Koxo]

Bump....Pease sticky for us Dsc's

[Zogy]

why cleric have bug and issue stickied but not us DSC? please sticky this

[Therian]

Heh - if you ever need a sticky, just pm the mods with a recommendation. It will at least bring the thread to their attention. Thanks Laby :)

[Zogy]

Heh - if you ever need a sticky, just pm the mods with a recommendation. It will at least bring the thread to their attention. Thanks Laby :)


Sorry I didn't know that was possible :D, but i am glad it's sticky. I love DSC it's a fun class.

[Neska]

Sorry I didn't know that was possible :D, but i am glad it's sticky. I love DSC it's a fun class.

Fun class and bugged as hell.

Two new bugs, sad these are Feign Death bugs...one of the few reasons because i am playing Disciple.

-If you are Feign Death and leave the group, your character stands, losing the FD.

-After been revived your Feign Death skill is in cooldown, so can't be used again.


Instead of fix our bugs we get more every patch. I wonder if Sigil remember there are Disciples in game, maybe it's why DSC is the less played class :)

*stop whine* :)

[givionte]

Sickpuppy, any chance you will be updating this very soon? I'm curious where we stand right now, and I'm too bored to pick apart your bug list myself.

[Sickpuppy]

Sickpuppy, any chance you will be updating this very soon? I'm curious where we stand right now, and I'm too bored to pick apart your bug list myself.

The bug list is up to date. There might be one or two minor bugs that aren't in there but all the known major bugs are there.

edit: actually there are a few updates, I'll do them now.

[Sickpuppy]

Updated:

Changed: Baiting Strike - Seems to have very little or no effect.
Changed: Shurikens - Always do the same damage regardless of what shuriken is equipped.
Changed: Blessed Wind and Concordant abilities - The heal amount is affected by crit. This can make the same level blessed wind tick for 50, 100, 200, 400 etc. It seems to be a seperate crit roll from the damage part.
Added: Paralyzing Touch - Rank 2 stuns for 60 seconds (tooltip says 40s).
Added: Feign Death - FD cancels when you leave groups.
Removed: Sun Fist - Has no animation or floating damage text (it still does damage).
Removed: Leech's Grasp - The tooltip is wrong. Level 1 drains 5end/3sec and level 2 drains 10end/3sec.

[Sickpuppy]

-If you are Feign Death and leave the group, your character stands, losing the FD.

-After been revived your Feign Death skill is in cooldown, so can't be used again.

I know the first bug but I've never experienced the second. Has anyone else experienced this?

[Zogy]

Fun class and bugged as hell.

Two new bugs, sad these are Feign Death bugs...one of the few reasons because i am playing Disciple.

-If you are Feign Death and leave the group, your character stands, losing the FD.

-After been revived your Feign Death skill is in cooldown, so can't be used again.


Instead of fix our bugs we get more every patch. I wonder if Sigil remember there are Disciples in game, maybe it's why DSC is the less played class :)

*stop whine* :)


FD has a timer....
You cannot stay FD forever like in EQ1 which you FD then u stay FD will not auto stand up. but in VG you will auto stand up if you try to perform any task/spell. or atleast you will auto stand up if you FD over 5mins try it you will know

on revived and not able to FD i don't get what's problem with that :P

[Solymnar]

FD has a timer....
You cannot stay FD forever like in EQ1 which you FD then u stay FD will not auto stand up. but in VG you will auto stand up if you try to perform any task/spell. or atleast you will auto stand up if you FD over 5mins try it you will know

on revived and not able to FD i don't get what's problem with that :P

Haven't had that one but a problem with FD is that when you try to use it while stunned not only does it not work but it also uses up the ability and triggers the cool down. If you can't use it then it should get used, period.

[Sickpuppy]

Haven't had that one but a problem with FD is that when you try to use it while stunned not only does it not work but it also uses up the ability and triggers the cool down. If you can't use it then it should get used, period.

Hmm, I've never experienced this bug either. Could you give any reproducibility steps?

One time I could see where it might happen is with the 2+ stun bug (where one stun runs out and you can move around but you are still stunned). I've definately never seen my FD start cooldown but not work while I'm properly stunned though.

[Solymnar]

One time I could see where it might happen is with the 2+ stun bug (where one stun runs out and you can move around but you are still stunned). I've definately never seen my FD start cooldown but not work while I'm properly stunned though.

Hrm...that sounds plausible, I was being hit by multiple stunning mobs. That or perhaps the server hiccuped at the exact moment? Happened a long time ago, if it does again I'll grab the details and spit it back up here. :)

[verax]

Touch of Woe XP bug

As of now, it looks like Touch of Woe II (the only one I've tested) is stealing XP. The damage caused by it must not be associated with the disciple currently, and thus it takes away from our XP gained.

I am level 17, when hunting lvl 19 2dot mobs, I get 15xp per kill without ToW. With ToW, I get 10-12 XP based on how much damage woe does to the mob. That's up to a 30% loss of XP any time we are soloing with Woe.

Verax

[Sickpuppy]

Touch of Woe XP bug

As of now, it looks like Touch of Woe II (the only one I've tested) is stealing XP. The damage caused by it must not be associated with the disciple currently, and thus it takes away from our XP gained.

I am level 17, when hunting lvl 19 2dot mobs, I get 15xp per kill without ToW. With ToW, I get 10-12 XP based on how much damage woe does to the mob. That's up to a 30% loss of XP any time we are soloing with Woe.

Verax

Wow, that's a really serious bug. Thanks for reporting it. It doesn't really surprise me, considering how debuffs like that work (seems like a similar underlying bug to blooming ridge hand). Updated the buglist:

Touch of Woe - When this skill is used it reduces the amount of XP gained when the mob dies (presumably because the source of the damage is the mob instead of the disciple).

[Earlchaos]

Touch of Woe - When this skill is used it reduces the amount of XP gained when the mob dies (presumably because the source of the damage is the mob instead of the disciple).

Mh, have to take a look at it - but i use it very seldom - only sometimes on really big mobs.


Using more than one dissonant bonds:

It's just an issue of timing. If you activate a bond and then count 1,2,3 and then use the next and 1,2,3 etc. you can have up to 3 or 4 bonds on the mob the same time. The trick is to find the exact timing. Also if you're already fighting for a while - use a bond you don't need, then 1,2,3 then sometimes you can get that bond too.

When i'm soloing 3+dots i usually put ox on them and then i try to get leech on it too - makes life much easier (currently farming Xenns when our group is incomplete for farming Graystone :D


Unfortunately the whole bug list is still not fixed. Well, maybe i would miss the NPC wars in a dungeon where the group was wiped except one of the Disciples (we're two in the guild, lvl 39/40) and the mobs kill each other while you put the group up again, rebuffing and then finishing the leftovers :D

[Roamer]

Blessed Wind - Blessed Wind's heal part has infinite range within a chunk.

Same with EoL healing. I'm not sure I want that bug (?) removed tho :)

Pretty sure the FP and WLS heal buffs can also hit a target at unlimited range (within the chunk) - needs verification tho.

[Sickpuppy]

Same with EoL healing. I'm not sure I want that bug (?) removed tho :)

Pretty sure the FP and WLS heal buffs can also hit a target at unlimited range (within the chunk) - needs verification tho.

Probably. Although this is on the test server at the moment:

- Secondary targets on spells and attacks now follow the same range rules as primary targets of the ability.

Hopefully this won't mean you can't cast "combo" spells if your defensive target is out of range. That would really screw with things.

[Neska]

Probably. Although this is on the test server at the moment:



Hopefully this won't mean you can't cast "combo" spells if your defensive target is out of range. That would really screw with things.

It doesn't matter if a shuriken says it does 1 damage or 1250 in the description, all shurikens hits for same amount of damage.

[Sickpuppy]

It doesn't matter if a shuriken says it does 1 damage or 1250 in the description, all shurikens hits for same amount of damage.

Already in the list. ;)

[Neska]

Already in the list. ;)

Ops sorry I read bug list and I must missed it ^_^
Well it's dissapointing after working hard to get Cesletine Ward Shurikens u see the do same damage as lvl 1 shurikens. *sigh*

[Sickpuppy]

I've spent the past few weeks away from Vanguard, and have been debating whether or not I want to continue playing the game. There are many reasons for this, but pretty much all of them stem from the state of the game.

Paying to beta test a game is tolerable for a while, but it gets tedius eventually.

I don't know whether I'll be coming back or, if I am, when I will be coming back and, as such, I can't keep this buglist updated. Thankfully Sigil has (finally) given us a class lead and he is going to be running a buglist over at TTH (http://forums.tentonhammer.com/showthread.php?t=13675).

While the success of this thread was limited, hopefully it will help somewhere down the road when Sigil get the time to look into the class further.

HF with Vanguard. I hope Sigil don't give up on what should have been (and still can be) an awesome game.

The OP has been updated accordingly with a link to the new buglist (http://forums.tentonhammer.com/showthread.php?t=13675).

edit: I'm not sure what Penth's plans are with regards to keeping an updated buglist on these forums (as they seem to be the most active forums right now) but, if he has none, feel free to use anything from the original post.

[Sailormoontw]

edit: I'm not sure what Penth's plans are with regards to keeping an updated buglist on these forums (as they seem to be the most active forums right now) but, if he has none, feel free to use anything from the original post.

I am away from Vanguard recently, but I didn't stop paying it.

And I think Penth and the devs will eventually make our classes on par with other classes, just need some time.

[Khyras]

Well, I don't feel like registering for another forum, so I'm posting it here

Blooming Ridge Hand: When you initially put it on a MOB, that mob is healed for a small amount.