Seamless world?

[Oren]

I thought that a seamless world meant you can take a ship and sail from one continent to another. Currently you cannot do that (well I haven't tried with a ship but I did try swimming far enough to hit an invisible wall telling me that a chunk is down). That means that currently the only way to travel between continents is by using porters. Is this a temporary condition? Will I be able in the future to take a ship and to sail off map on my way from Thestra to Kojan etc.?

[vylo]

Not sure on that. They were going to make you sail across the whole ocean, but the problem was that the ocean was so large that most people would probably pass out before reaching the other shore.

[rabb1t]

Seamless means you can't see the "seams" between the zones. There have been other threads on this.

Seamless <> no zones

[Garjala]

I thought that a seamless world meant you can take a ship and sail from one continent to another. Currently you cannot do that (well I haven't tried with a ship but I did try swimming far enough to hit an invisible wall telling me that a chunk is down). That means that currently the only way to travel between continents is by using porters. Is this a temporary condition? Will I be able in the future to take a ship and to sail off map on my way from Thestra to Kojan etc.?
It means that other part of map you were trying to go to had crashed. As far as I know you can swim from continent to continent if all chunks (map parts) are up and going.

[Vega]

Seamless is a very misleading term i think. I always took it to mean that there would literally be no 'seams' joingin chunks together at all, visible or not. With streamed content like what has been demonstrated in the Unreal 3 engine.

Unfortunately i think Sigil did'nt make the best choice of words in a lot of the pre-release blurb. I would almost go so far as to say that some of it was deceptive, but oh well. Game developers all do it.

[Geldoff]

I thought that a seamless world meant you can take a ship and sail from one continent to another. Currently you cannot do that (well I haven't tried with a ship but I did try swimming far enough to hit an invisible wall telling me that a chunk is down). That means that currently the only way to travel between continents is by using porters. Is this a temporary condition? Will I be able in the future to take a ship and to sail off map on my way from Thestra to Kojan etc.?


seamless simply means they "Stream" the zones to you (in chunks LOL like WoW, SoR or GTASA does) in the background so that you are not forced to sit through "loading" screens when you go from one zone to another (like EQ2).

[Taly]

The boat situation isn't permanent.

On the other hand, I am still a bit disappointed that they couldn't make seamless zoning without load times when DAoC managed to do it (on a smaller scale of course) over half a decade ago. Hopefully that is something they keep improving because I really expected to barely notice the zone lines if I noticed them at all. But what we have now is just slightly faster zoning with no loading screen and no warning. Heck, they could at least put down an optional visible warning of a zone line if they can't get rid of the zone times.

[Geldoff]

I thought that a seamless world meant you can take a ship and sail from one continent to another. Currently you cannot do that (well I haven't tried with a ship but I did try swimming far enough to hit an invisible wall telling me that a chunk is down). That means that currently the only way to travel between continents is by using porters. Is this a temporary condition? Will I be able in the future to take a ship and to sail off map on my way from Thestra to Kojan etc.?

The boat situation isn't permanent.

On the other hand, I am still a bit disappointed that they couldn't make seamless zoning without load times when DAoC managed to do it (on a smaller scale of course) over half a decade ago. Hopefully that is something they keep improving because I really expected to barely notice the zone lines if I noticed them at all. But what we have now is just slightly faster zoning with no loading screen and no warning. Heck, they could at least put down an optional visible warning of a zone line if they can't get rid of the zone times.


yeah they are obviously still working on the chunk streaming. Its better then it was a month ago, but not nearly good enough. A seamless transition from one chunk to the other should certainly be the goal and I am sure it is.

While streaming chunks is certainly within the accepted definition of "Seamless World" (this is how everyone does it), when the streaming between chunks is as abrupt and jarring as it often can be in Vanguard, you have not fully achieved a seamless goal, regardless of the mechanics you are employing.

[Hrann]

Can mobs even run across chunk lines? It seems like they stopped people "running to zone" simply by putting no mobs near the zone line.

[Vorn]

Stating that this game is seamless is a lie, plain and simple. You can't take a "zoned" game and then just take away the loading screen and call it seamless. There are zones/chunks and there are definate seams where loading takes place. This can't be argued.

[Varel]

Actually, it is seamless.

If i run through Kojan from one chunk to another, and then back again, there is about a nanosecond bump when shifting zones. Taking 2 seconds to load is pretty seamless compared to:

<loading.......2%...............4%............>

There are many things in this game that piss me off royally, the "seamless"'ness of the world is not one.

[Geldoff]

Stating that this game is seamless is a lie, plain and simple. You can't take a "zoned" game and then just take away the loading screen and call it seamless. There are zones/chunks and there are definate seams where loading takes place. This can't be argued.

yes, that is actually excatly what seamless world means. they are all streaming the zones in chunks in the background, from WoW to Saints Row. When you see "Seamless" from now on, understand that doesn mean one big zone, it means many zones "seamlessly" connected together.

They still have some work to do on thier streaming, but it is very fair to call this seamless, in design and in practice, as fair as any other title and I am sure they will continue to perfect it.

[SageGaspar]

Actually, it is seamless.

If i run through Kojan from one chunk to another, and then back again, there is about a nanosecond bump when shifting zones. Taking 2 seconds to load is pretty seamless compared to:

<loading.......2%...............4%............>

That doesn't mean it's seamless, it means it kept the information in memory so that you could load it faster.

I do like this game, but saying it doesn't have zones is like saying that EQ1 doesn't have zones now that they let you block the loading screen, and my wait times in EQ1 are maybe five seconds at most. People are still sitting there loading for thirty seconds at the boundaries. Plus when it tries to load in something big like when I get to the outskirts of a city, there's still a ton of hitching that makes it obvious when it's set to stream in the town info.

They do load mobs across boundaries, but seeing as how you're so rarely fighting close to the boundaries it's more of a pain in the ass than anything else. If you're running away from a mob and you hit the boundary of a chunk you have to sit there with your finger on the forward key waiting for it to load.

I was also exploring the coast and I managed to catch myself in a near-infinite zoning loop, I'd zone into one area ten feet into the air above a rock face, which I'd hit and slide down into the previous zone, which launched me forward into the other zone, etc. If it was truly seamless I would just be able to pick a direction and swim away without getting my direction reversed and my position changed every half second.

[Gholam]

"Seamless world?"

No.

CHUNKS = ZONES = SEAMS

[Kates]

Actually, it is seamless.

If i run through Kojan from one chunk to another, and then back again, there is about a nanosecond bump when shifting zones. Taking 2 seconds to load is pretty seamless compared to:

<loading.......2%...............4%............>

There are many things in this game that piss me off royally, the "seamless"'ness of the world is not one.


*CRY* I wish I had a "nanosecond bump" when shifting zones. When I hit a zone wall I lock up for a good 5 seconds, only to reappear in first person view with no torch. Thats on highest quality setting though. Maybe bard speed plays a fact into it?

[Vega]

*CRY* I wish I had a "nanosecond bump" when shifting zones. When I hit a zone wall I lock up for a good 5 seconds, only to reappear in first person view with no torch. Thats on highest quality setting though. Maybe bard speed plays a fact into it?

Same happens for me, only in my case it is 10 seconds or maybe a little more. Strangely quality setting has absolutely no effect on this time either (for me anyhow).

[Teek]

*CRY* I wish I had a "nanosecond bump" when shifting zones. When I hit a zone wall I lock up for a good 5 seconds, only to reappear in first person view with no torch. Thats on highest quality setting though. Maybe bard speed plays a fact into it?

This happens to everyone in our guild right now, and it's terrible. The ONLY benefit out of the the rediculously bad server lines is that MOBs that are chasing you stop when they slam into the line. I'm assuming the MOB's have CTD'ed.:p , as this has happen mutliple times to people in our guild.

Oh, and my computer is pretty high end and was built from the ground up about a month ago. My FPS hovers around 40-60 with all the graphics turned on and the sliders set to 75.

[Geldoff]

That doesn't mean it's seamless, it means it kept the information in memory so that you could load it faster.

I do like this game, but saying it doesn't have zones is like saying that EQ1 doesn't have zones now that they let you block the loading screen, .

no saying it doesnt have zones (or is seamless) is saying that it is streamed in chunks through background process, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SIMILAR TITLE THAT MAKES THIS CLAIM DOES.

There wouldnt be much trick in making something appear seamless, that really had no seams now would there . . . LMAO?

[popsicledeath]

The funny thing is they keep billing the game as seamless, when in reality it's zoneless. There aren't zones, but there very definitely very severe seams dividing up the world.

Seamless... 3rd generation... I think they have a problem with living up to buzzwords and should stop creating them for themselves ;)

[perfect]

The boat situation isn't permanent.

On the other hand, I am still a bit disappointed that they couldn't make seamless zoning without load times when DAoC managed to do it (on a smaller scale of course) over half a decade ago. Hopefully that is something they keep improving because I really expected to barely notice the zone lines if I noticed them at all. But what we have now is just slightly faster zoning with no loading screen and no warning. Heck, they could at least put down an optional visible warning of a zone line if they can't get rid of the zone times.

Sorry, I have to say something here: DAoC was zoned. The over land areas were not, but the cities and dungeons and RvR areas were.

Please excuse the interruption.

[Geldoff]

The funny thing is they keep billing the game as seamless, when in reality it's zoneless. There aren't zones, but there very definitely very severe seams dividing up the world.

Seamless... 3rd generation... I think they have a problem with living up to buzzwords and should stop creating them for themselves ;)

I dont understand you guys, or what you expected to get? Yes they are still having some issues with streaming, its too abrupt and jarring, I am sure they are continuing to work on it. But this mechanic (streaming chunks through background process) is what "Seamless World" means, not only when Sigil used it, but when ANYONE has used it?

Have you ever seen a seamless joint in two pieces of glass butted together? No, thats the point, it has a seam, it simply "appears seamless" and so its called a "seamless joint".

Again it would be no great trick to make something appear seamless, if it really had no seams?

[Calmedan]

The way things are in Vanguard right now I think it is for the best that we should have a message appear on-screen saying "crossing zones" or something like that. I'm tired of trying to figure out if I'm crossing a zone line or if my computer is "hitching".

I see no reason why we have this pause when crossing zone lines right now. To me, a seamless world is one where the terrain and world data are streamed to the scenegraph unobtrusively. Vanguard most definitely is not seamless regardless of how someone attempts to twist the definition.

Basically all they've done is remove the loading screen. That's what it feels like. That's what it is.

:ninja: :volcano: :ninja:

[Calmedan]

I dont understand you guys, or what you expected to get? Yes they are still having some issues with streaming, its too abrupt and jarring, I am sure they are continuing to work on it. But this mechanic (streaming chunks through background process) is what "Seamless World" means, not only when Sigil used it, but when ANYONE has used it?

I'm not one for naming names. There is A.N. Other game out there that is truly seamless. In fact it's so seamless that the entire terrain and world data can be changed around the player as they stand there. I'm sure some people will remember a certain "end of world" event prior to a server merge in the game I'm referring to, where the world around us was morphed right before our eyes and without any hitching or locking up.

That game allows players to run from one end of the world to the other (or fly - subtle hint...) without any loading of zones or areas. All terrain and world data is relayed to the game client as the player explores.

I'm sure that many of you who have played this game will be able to collaborate what I am saying so that those who have not experienced it first-hand can appreciate that I am not making it up.

[Vega]

Basically all they've done is remove the loading screen. That's what it feels like. That's what it is.

:ninja: :volcano: :ninja:

Absolutely right. If the world geometry was being streamed dynmically then each person would experience, at worst, hitches at 'random' points in the landscape determined by their own system specs. There is no such dynamic loading in VG, when you hit point X you will always load the next zone, no matter if your computer has enough ram to store both zones information anyway. The load time will vary depending on each players machine, but it will always do it at the same spot.

The landmass is not even handled as one whole server side, if it were a truly seamless world then it would be impossible to have a certain area crash but the rest of the server remain up.

[DruidFire]

Stating that this game is seamless is a lie, plain and simple. You can't take a "zoned" game and then just take away the loading screen and call it seamless. There are zones/chunks and there are definate seams where loading takes place. This can't be argued.

Sure it can.

The game is not zoned. It is 'chunked' aka divided into 2km x 2km squares. Each square has its own server, and when crossing the 'chunk line' you are merely switching to the other server, and fetching some resources. You can see the geometry, mobs, etc from the other side of the chunk line.

In a 'zoned' game, you are only seeing that particular area, nothing more. These are completely seperate, and divided by doors, gates...etc. If you happen to fly high in the sky in a 'zone', you would not see anything in the surrounding area, outside the 'zone'.

That's the difference, and that is what classifies Vanguard as Seamless.

Just because you hitch while chunking doesn't mean it's not. That just means that chunking is not as optimized as say, DAoC or EQOA.

[Geldoff]

Absolutely right. If the world geometry was being streamed dynmically then each person would experience, at worst, hitches at 'random' points in the landscape determined by their own system specs. There is no such dynamic loading in VG, when you hit point X you will always load the next zone, no matter if your computer has enough ram to store both zones information anyway. The load time will vary depending on each players machine, but it will always do it at the same spot.

The landmass is not even handled as one whole server side, if it were a truly seamless world then it would be impossible to have a certain area crash but the rest of the server remain up.


The geomotry of VSOH is streamed dynamically (as are textures, its mainly pixel shading that is causeing the issue I believe) as a background process exactly the same way it is done in EVERY OTHER SEAMLESS GAME on the market. They do have some issues here, aparently in relation to the amount of detail necessary, limitations in UE2.5 engine regarding pixel shaders and HDD and processor bottleknecks. Problems that I am sure will be worked out, but your assertion that they are lying to thier community about this mechanic is out of line (and again wrong).

I am not sure what you mean about the "The landmass is not even handled as one whole", of course the landmass is not handled as one complete zone, nor is it in any MMO that I know of. Geez that would be rediculously unwieldy to work with, just in development, not to mention actually running the games. It would also be a support and debugging nightmare, for the reason you mention. It would just be a really silly thing to do as it would create alot of hassle for something that is supposed to be transparent to the end user anyway?

VSOH is seamless by the same mechanic EVERY OTHER GAME that advertises itself as seamless is. They are having some issues because they are trying to push alot more through "Seamlessly" then anyone else is (on a PC anyway), but the mechanics are solid and they will get it alot better I am sure (especially when they jump to UE3 which is better suited for streaming especially in terms of mulit-core threading - so I am told anyway).

[Vega]

The geomotry of VSOH is streamed dynamically (as are textures, its mainly pixel shading that is causeing the issue I believe) as a background process exactly the same way it is done in EVERY OTHER SEAMLESS GAME on the market. They do have some issues here, aparently in relation to the amount of detail necessary, limitations in UE2.5 engine regarding pixel shaders and HDD and processor bottleknecks. Problems that I am sure will be worked out, but your assertion that they are lying to thier community about this mechanic is out of line (and again wrong).

I am not sure what you mean about the "The landmass is not even handled as one whole", of course the landmass is not handled as one complete zone, nor is it in any MMO that I know of. Geez that would be rediculously unwieldy to work with, just in development, not to mention actually running the games. It would also be a support and debugging nightmare, for the reason you mention. It would just be a really silly thing to do as it would create alot of hassle for something that is supposed to be transparent to the end user anyway?

VSOH is seamless by the same mechanic EVERY OTHER GAME that advertises itself as seamless is. They are having some issues because they are trying to push alot more through "Seamlessly" then anyone else is (on a PC anyway), but the mechanics are solid and they will get it alot better I am sure (especially when they jump to UE3 which is better suited for streaming especially in terms of mulit-core threading - so I am told anyway).

Seam = Where one zone meets another (visible or not)

Which would mean that a seamless game would be one continuous zone. I can't simplify it any more for you.

And Vanguard does not in any way load the world geometry dynamically, it loads each chunk at predetermined SEAMS. It loads meshes and LOD geometry dynmically, which has been standard practice in 3D games for a long time.

[Nikkoli]

*CRY* I wish I had a "nanosecond bump" when shifting zones. When I hit a zone wall I lock up for a good 5 seconds, only to reappear in first person view with no torch. Thats on highest quality setting though. Maybe bard speed plays a fact into it?

I notice a lot when I am running at full bard speed I tend to bounce off the zoneline. Its humorous to me the first couple times but its starting to get annoying.

[Ustal]

You guys have to be joking or something. How can you deny what is happening? I don't care what they call it, chunks or whatever term they use for it, when I am exploring and I hit a zone (chunk) border and everything stops for 20 or 30 seconds (and yes it really does take that long for me) it's loading the next area. Call it what you want but it is most definitely not seamless. Sure I don't actually see a border but that's not what seamless impllies. In fact I wish they would put a damn loading screen up so I would at least know the game didn't crash on me.

I have been enjoying this game and am trying to like it, really trying but these boards drive me nuts. Seriously we need to be realistic about the problems with the game and this "chunking" is a bad problem. Either it's loading zones or it's the worst streaming data I've ever seen in my life. Either way it needs to be resolved. Please spend less time blindly defending the game and take an objective look at what is actually happening. I think we all accept that there are going to be bugs in a game like this, especially right after launch but it's important that we see them for what they are and don't just try to explain them away using terms the marketing department made up.

[Calmedan]

The ONLY benefit out of the the rediculously bad server lines is that MOBs that are chasing you stop when they slam into the line. I'm assuming the MOB's have CTD'ed.:p , as this has happen mutliple times to people in our guild.

Hehe :D

I'm gonna refer to A.N.Other game again...

I'm seeing one guy (not you Teek, quoting you because it bears relevance to what I'm gonna say) saying that the reason for this "chunking" is because each chunk is hosted on its own physical server (or VM if utilising clustered resources) and the delay is due to the transfer of your character from one server to another.

Well in A.N.Other game the world is spread across multiple physical servers, yet there is zero - absolutely zero - delay when the player moves to another server that handles the area they are moving to.

More to the point the monsters are also impervious to the cross-over in this other game I'm using as an example.

People can try and defend Vanguard any which way they like by attempting to contort the definition of seamless or zoneless, irrespective of such attempts the reality is blatantly obvious. Advertising Vanguard as a seamless world is a flat-out lie. That's a strong word. Let's savour that word for a moment... Lie... Hmm, yep it fits the glove.

I like the game but I do NOT agree with blatant lies in an attempt to cover up any cracks. I appreciate frankness and honesty at all levels. Spin is dead, and spinmeisters are waiting for their turn on the gallows.

[Geldoff]

Absolutely right. If the world geometry was being streamed dynmically then each person would experience, at worst, hitches at 'random' points in the landscape determined by their own system specs. There is no such dynamic loading in VG, when you hit point X you will always load the next zone, no matter if your computer has enough ram to store both zones information anyway. The load time will vary depending on each players machine, but it will always do it at the same spot.

The landmass is not even handled as one whole server side, if it were a truly seamless world then it would be impossible to have a certain area crash but the rest of the server remain up.

Seam = Where one zone meets another (visible or not)

Which would mean that a seamless game would be one continuous zone. I can't simplify it any more for you.

And Vanguard does not in any way load the world geometry dynamically, it loads each chunk at predetermined SEAMS. It loads meshes and LOD geometry dynmically, which has been standard practice in 3D games for a long time.

LOL seamless world, (like seamless joint) is about the appearence of seams, not whether they really exists or not. LOL it would be simply stupid to make a game the size of VSOH (or even half its size) without seaming together chunks as is done IN EVERY OTHER SIMILAR GAME. Why load a bunch of stuff the player doesnt need, it simply takes up resources and doesnt benefit the user in any way until they need it (very ineffecient design - no matter what kind of application your making by the way). The best solution would be to load only what the player needs and then try to predict what he is going to need next (by maybe creating predetermined areas where you would DYNAMICALLY begin to load the next chunk before the player needs it).

If you did not know that what seamless ment is "the appearence of no seams" that is not Sigils fault, nor is it them exploiting buzz-words. Its simply you not understanding the term and not paying attention to thier discription of the mechanic (which they have always been quite clear about, as it is the same mechanic everyone uses to create a seamless world so they had no need to keep it a secret).

Loading a chunk at predetermined seams is dynamically loading world geomotry. Staticly would be to load it when you unloaded your curent zone or logged into the game, not "on the fly" in anticipation of its need. To trigger the loading "before" you reach the zone line (before you need it) and stream it to you as a background process is very much, loading it dynamically (dynamically being "on the fly" and "in anticipation of need" here).

[Vega]

LOL seamless world, (like seamless joint) is about the appearence of seams, not whether they really exists or not. LOL it would be simply stupid to make a game the size of VSOH (or even half its size) without seaming together chunks as is done IN EVERY OTHER SIMILAR GAME. Why load a bunch of stuff the player doesnt need, it simply takes up resources and doesnt benefit the user in any way until they need it (very ineffecient design - no matter what kind of application your making by the way). The best solution would be to load only what the player needs and then try to predict what he is going to need next (by maybe creating predetermined areas where you would DYNAMICALLY begin to load the next chunk before the player needs it).

If you did not know that what seamless ment is "the appearence of no seams" that is not Sigils fault, nor is it them exploiting buzz-words. Its simply you not understanding the term and not paying attention to thier discription of the mechanic (which they have always been quite clear about, as it is the same mechanic everyone uses to create a seamless world so they had no need to keep it a secret).

Loading a chunk at predetermined seams is dynamically loading world geomotry. Staticly would be to load it when you unloaded your curent zone or logged into the game, not "on the fly" in anticipation of its need. To trigger the loading "before" you reach the zone line (before you need it) and stream it to you as a background process is very much, loading it dynamically (dynamically being "on the fly" and "in anticipation of need" here).

Your post makes absolutely no sense at all, you are arguing for the sake of it, and i am not at all surprised. There are plenty of people in this thread with common sense, you are not one of them. You twist everything to suit your own ends whether it actually relates to the reality of what we are talking about or not.

Sure you can win any argument you like if words have a completely different meaning to you than the rest of us.

Anyway just like in the other thread, i'm going to bow out now as your ego will keep you going until someone dies of exhaustion.

[Calmedan]

Geldoff are you actually gonna respond to my posts or are you picking on the person who you feel has the most holes in their presentation of the debate?

Seamless world is a flat-out lie. If I pick up a ceramic ornament that was made from two halves stuck together, and I cannot physically see the seam does that make it seamless? No. If I can't feel the seams does that make it seamless? No.

It is only seamless if the way in which it is put together is seamless. I can't see the seam, but I can definitely feel it. There are other games out there which are indeed truly seamless. They have no visible seam, they have no way to "feel" the seams either, because the seams don't exist!

When it is possible to compare 3 or 4 games which claim to be seamless, and 3 of them offer a truly seamless experience but the fourth has a noticable seam then yes it is fair for us to declare the claim of seamless to be a deplorable lie. Please don't spin words any more, or if you're going to continue then construct a valid argument to counter my own expressive debate points. I'm woman enough to handle your worst, so do your best.

[Geldoff]

I'm not one for naming names. There is A.N. Other game out there that is truly seamless. In fact it's so seamless that the entire terrain and world data can be changed around the player as they stand there. I'm sure some people will remember a certain "end of world" event prior to a server merge in the game I'm referring to, where the world around us was morphed right before our eyes and without any hitching or locking up.

That game allows players to run from one end of the world to the other (or fly - subtle hint...) without any loading of zones or areas. All terrain and world data is relayed to the game client as the player explores.

I'm sure that many of you who have played this game will be able to collaborate what I am saying so that those who have not experienced it first-hand can appreciate that I am not making it up.


Yes SoR is the same way (at least a few years ago when I played it) you can run from one end of it to the other with no zoning and never experience a hitch. It also changed seasons right in front or you (as does Vangaurd) and has dynamic wind and weather (as does Vangaurd and pretty much everything else now-a-days).

SoR is also built on the same engine as Vangaurd and uses the same streaming mechanic as vangaurd. It works alot smoother now, but at launch it was a little hitchier (nothing like VSOH I admit), but they are also not passing anywhere near the kind of details that VSOH is.

Be patient guys, it is a seamless world by design (in that it is desinged to have no noticable "loading zones") and it has a tried and true mechanic for accomplishing this (streaming chunks). Its rough at the moment (much better then it was a month ago though) but it will get better and I am sure eventually this entire debate will be forgotten.

I dont know what your hint about flying is, I have flown around alot of VSOH and had the same experience as on the ground (althought there were invisible walls between continents, I dont like that, btu I understand its temporary).

[jonyak]

When it is possible to compare 3 or 4 games which claim to be seamless, and 3 of them offer a truly seamless experience but the fourth has a noticable seam then yes it is fair for us to declare the claim of seamless to be a deplorable lie. Please don't spin words any more, or if you're going to continue then construct a valid argument to counter my own expressive debate points. I'm woman enough to handle your worst, so do your best.

Which games are these??? and how big are they? I can almost guarantee they are not seamless. you obviouldy have no idea how computers work. it simply isn;t possible to do that now. I see nothign wrong with the other post.

Post edited. Please review our forum rules (http://www.silkyvenom.com/forums/announcement.php?f=9) - Labyrrinth

[perfect]

Geldoff are you actually gonna respond to my posts or are you picking on the person who you feel has the most holes in their presentation of the debate?

Seamless world is a flat-out lie. If I pick up a ceramic ornament that was made from two halves stuck together, and I cannot physically see the seam does that make it seamless? No. If I can't feel the seams does that make it seamless? No.

It is only seamless if the way in which it is put together is seamless. I can't see the seam, but I can definitely feel it. There are other games out there which are indeed truly seamless. They have no visible seam, they have no way to "feel" the seams either, because the seams don't exist!

When it is possible to compare 3 or 4 games which claim to be seamless, and 3 of them offer a truly seamless experience but the fourth has a noticable seam then yes it is fair for us to declare the claim of seamless to be a deplorable lie. Please don't spin words any more, or if you're going to continue then construct a valid argument to counter my own expressive debate points. I'm woman enough to handle your worst, so do your best.

Just to clarify:

Main Entry: seam·less
Pronunciation: 'sEm-l&s
Function: adjective
1 : having no seams
2 a : having no awkward transitions, interruptions, or indications of disparity <a seamless fusion of beauty and intelligence -- Jack Kroll et al.> b : PERFECT, FLAWLESS <a seamless performance>

So...I would be seamless. "b : PERFECT, FLAWLESS <a seamless performance>"

But the point would be "2 a : having no awkward transitions, interruptions, or indications of disparity". The chunking definately can be defined as having 'awkward transitions'.

I think it's a poor choice of words on Sigil's part, not an outright lie. The intent behind the word is 'no instances' but the word they chose was 'seamless'.

Most of us acknowledge the intent or spirit of the word 'seamless' as it applies to this discussion.

By strictest legal standards and nit picking, 'seamless' (as it applies to this discussion) is wrong.

[Calmedan]

Yes SoR is the same way (at least a few years ago when I played it) you can run from one end of it to the other with no zoning and never experience a hitch. It also changed seasons right in front or you (as does Vangaurd) and has dynamic wind and weather (as does Vangaurd and pretty much everything else now-a-days).

SoR is also built on the same engine as Vangaurd and uses the same streaming mechanic as vangaurd. It works alot smoother now, but at launch it was a little hitchier (nothing like VSOH I admit), but they are also not passing anywhere near the kind of details that VSOH is.

Be patient guys, it is a seamless world by design (in that it is desinged to have no noticable "loading zones") and it has a tried and true for mechanic for accomplishing this (streaming chunks). Its rough at the moment (much better then it was a month ago though) but it will get better and I am sure eventually this entire debate will be forgotten.

Well it would help if I knew what SoR was. Regardless, it sounds like it has seams from your description. Poor comparison. I've got 3 mmorpgs in mind that are truly seamless both in terms of their construction and in their presentation. The key word here is "architecture". The developers of Vanguard made a poor decision, had they consulted with developers of other mmorpgs who offer tried and proven server architecture as middleware then they would be using what has become standard mmorpg architecture, not a concept of zones that is over 12 years old and was already considered unsuitable for mmorpgs just under 10 years ago. It was the quick and dirty approach to the problem. There are very elegant (and affordable) solutions out there that overcome this problem with such grace that to be honest I am shocked Sigil did not explore their options further.

Which games are these??? and how big are they? I can almost guarantee they are not seamless. you obviouldy have no idea how computers work. it simply isn;t possible to do that now. I see nothign wrong with the other post.


Offensive remark removed - Labyrrinth

ROFL. Lend me the dunce hat when you're done with it, I need a giggle!

Ahh Perfect thank you for going to the trouble of presenting us with a dictionary definiton. It effectively proves our point for us. As I have already said, spin is dead and if we are meant to interpret the "spirit" of a word when it goes against everything we previously understood it to mean (as per the dictionary definition you have graciously proferred to lend merit to our side of the debate) then who is at fault? The individual who is told that what they are reading from a dictionary is incorrect, or the person who has decided to add new meaning to an existing word? I am glad you appreciate that the definition as presented by some of the people here is indeed flawed.

[Trejian Ojuda]

[QUOTE=jonyak;83735]Which games are these??? and how big are they? I can almost guarantee they are not seamless. you obviouldy have no idea how computers work. it simply isn;t possible to do that now. I see nothign wrong with the other post.


Offensive remard removed - LabyrrinthQUOTE]

Dark and Light comes to mind.....

[Geldoff]

Well it would help if I knew what SoR was. Regardless, it sounds like it has seams from your description. Poor comparison. I've got 3 mmorpgs in mind that are truly seamless both in terms of their construction and in their presentation. The key word here is "architecture". The developers of Vanguard made a poor decision, had they consulted with developers of other mmorpgs who offer tried and proven server architecture as middleware then they would be using what has become standard mmorpg architecture, not a concept of zones that is over 12 years old and was already considered unsuitable for mmorpgs just under 10 years ago. It was the quick and dirty approach to the problem. There are very elegant (and affordable) solutions out there that overcome this problem with such grace that to be honest I am shocked Sigil did not explore their options further.



ROFL. Lend me the dunce hat when you're done with it, I need a giggle!


(SOR - Saga of Rayzom), I would also like to know what games you are talking about. Becuase if they are large detailed worlds, they are streamed in chunks, just as VSOH and every other similar game is. Even games that are not similar are, like Grand Theft Auto for example. It would be rediculous to load everything in the world into a users system when he is only likely to actually use 1/10000000th of that information?

Again their is no trick in making something with no seams appear seamless. They are having some performance issues here, but they are doing seamless the same way everyone in the industry does "seamless" and its hardly just removing the "loading screen" (although I grant you it can feel that way sometimes).

[Vega]

Most of us acknowledge the intent or spirit of the word 'seamless' as it applies to this discussion.


But that's the thing, there is no way that anyone can argue that the WORLD GEOMETRY is loaded dynamically to create a seamless environment (even as the definition you are suggesting) because there is NO DYNAMIC LOADING done whatsoever. There are clear lines where it loads every time you cross that point.

If it were loading the world dynamically then it would not load at the same point every time, it would adjust DYNAMICALLY to the most efficient use of resources.

AND TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS WORLD GEOMETRY IS THE TERRAIN OF THE WORLD, IE THE LANDMASS.

ALL HOUSES/BUILDINGS/MOBS/TREES etc.. ARE MESHES. THERE IS A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE. MESHES AND THEIR ASSOCIATED TEXTURES/NORMAL MAPS/SPEC MAPS ARE LOADED DYNAMICALLY, THIS HAS BEEN STANDARD PRACTICE FOR A LONG TIME. THE WORLD HOWEVER DOES NOT LOAD DYNAMICALLY AT ALL.

There are seams (going by either definition) at the zone edges no matter what way you spin it, there is nothing else to say about it.


EDIT: i don't mean the caps to look like i am shouting at you btw, just for the sake of clarity of what i believe is an important point.

[Geldoff]

Dark and Light comes to mind.....

its been a while, but last time I saw that game it didnt even have dynamic lighting, I am not sure its a fair comparison with VSOH, that aside though, it is streamed in chunks just as VSOH is Im sure.

[antiframe]

I've got 3 mmorpgs in mind that are truly seamless both in terms of their construction and in their presentation. The key word here is "architecture". The developers of Vanguard made a poor decision, had they consulted with developers of other mmorpgs who offer tried and proven server architecture as middleware then they would be using what has become standard mmorpg architecture, not a concept of zones that is over 12 years old and was already considered unsuitable for mmorpgs just under 10 years ago. It was the quick and dirty approach to the problem. There are very elegant (and affordable) solutions out there that overcome this problem with such grace that to be honest I am shocked Sigil did not explore their options further.

I have two questions for you.

What are the three "truly seamless" MMORPGs that you have got in mind?

Can you name and give me a citation of the architecture you speak of?

I also have a comment about your assertion that Vanguard uses zones. It does not, it uses chunks, which are a different concept. A zone is a region that when loaded into a game, is the only region loaded. Everquest had zones. They used walls, mountains, doors, and the like to hide anything beyond the zone, since it was all an abyss that would break immersion if seen. Were Vanguard using zones, I would not be able to see an island in another chunk from a different chunk.

Perhaps you use zone and chunk interchangeably? I believe they are pretty specific computer science architecture jargon that has a meaning that differs from the standard dictionary meaning when applied to the field.

[perfect]

...AND TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS WORLD GEOMETRY IS THE TERRAIN OF THE WORLD, IE THE LANDMASS.

ALL HOUSES/BUILDINGS/MOBS/TREES etc.. ARE MESHES. THERE IS A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE. MESHES AND THEIR ASSOCIATED TEXTURES/NORMAL MAPS/SPEC MAPS ARE LOADED DYNAMICALLY, THIS HAS BEEN STANDARD PRACTICE FOR A LONG TIME. THE WORLD HOWEVER DOES NOT LOAD DYNAMICALLY AT ALL....

Why are you yelling at me? :D

No, I got you. I understand your point. You are correct. The game has seams. It is not seamless.

*I* am suggesting that instead of 'seamless' Sigil would have been better served using 'instance-less'.

That a better statement?

[Vega]

I also have a comment about your assertion that Vanguard uses zones. It does not, it uses chunks, which are a different concept. A zone is a region that when loaded into a game, is the only region loaded. Everquest had zones. They used walls, mountains, doors, and the like to hide anything beyond the zone, since it was all an abyss that would break immersion if seen. Were Vanguard using zones, I would not be able to see an island in another chunk from a different chunk.

Perhaps you use zone and chunk interchangeably? I believe they are pretty specific computer science architecture jargon that has a meaning that differs from the standard dictionary meaning when applied to the field.

You only have one 'chunk' in memory at a time. That is why the game loads at clearly defined SEAMS. There is LOD terrain rendered with mob placement etc.. to hide the void you are talking about. But you cant just walk in there, as soon as you cross ANY seam in the game , it will have to load the next chunk.

@ Perfect, yes i agree absolutely, i think it is a terrible choice of description on Sigil's part.

[Calmedan]

(SOR - Saga of Rayzom), I would also like to know what games you are talking about. Becuase if they are large detailed worlds, they are streamed in chunks, just as VSOH and every other similar game is. Even games that are not similar are, like Grand Theft Auto for example. It would be rediculous to load everything in the world into a users system when he is only likely to actually use 1/10000000th of that information?

Again their is no trick in making something with no seams appear seamless. They are having some performance issues here, but they are doing seamless the same way everyone in the industry does "seamless" and its hardly just removing the "loading screen" (although I grant you it can feel that way sometimes).

I will leave you to discover these alternative worlds by yourself. This is a Vanguard forum and hence my conversation will be focused on Vanguard and I shall refrain from mentioning other titles because I have already witnessed how the "vanbois" descend upon mention of other games and instantly attempt to evict those who mention other titles by name from their community. Nevertheless thankyou for clarifying what SoR is, one I have heard of but never played.

By the way, I made no reference to loading everything into memory. That would be silly to say the least. Imagine instead a scenario whereby everything within a certain range of your character is loaded into memory instead. As you move, the necessary resources within this radius are loaded or unloaded from memory as required. Such architecture also has a certain amount of asset retention in memory so for example doubling back upon your path would not result in unnecessary asset management. There is no hitching to be experienced because there are no chunks being loaded, only the required terrain and world data for the area around the character.

This is probably the simplest way I can describe it, and my description does almost no justice to the true elegance of such solutions, nor does it elaborate upon the complexity that is going on behind the scenes. In fact I'd go so far as to say that my explanation paints a poor picture and probably will lead to misconceptions of how such solutions work. I suggest you start reading up on middleware available to mmorpg developers but please leave out the middleware known as Nevrax Library (or NeL if you prefer) because it is most definitely not a seamless solution. I try to avoid going into complexities because I would rather not bore the populace with technicalities which is why I'm suggesting you evaluate alternative solutions; you certainly seem to be the type of person who is willing to broaden their mind as and when time allows for it.

[SageGaspar]

no saying it doesnt have zones (or is seamless) is saying that it is streamed in chunks through background process, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER SIMILAR TITLE THAT MAKES THIS CLAIM DOES.

There wouldnt be much trick in making something appear seamless, that really had no seams now would there . . . LMAO?

"Seamless" streaming is what happens when you walk into a town or dungeon area within a chunk (and there are well-defined borders in the game world that you will notice when you enter them). There is a momentary stuttering as things finally load up.

When you go between chunks the entire game locks up for however many seconds it takes for you to load the next chunk. Your avatar disappears from the world and reappears on the other side. Your avatar's directional orientation and absolute position within the world can become changed. This is not seamless. It is a very definite seam. I'm not sure what you're so riled up about.

Were Vanguard using zones, I would not be able to see an island in another chunk from a different chunk.

You can make a contiguous world and chop it up to overlap so that you can see all visible landmarks. EQ1 and EQ2 use tricks like mountain passes and doors to cut down on system load.

There might be some difference in the technical definitions of zone and chunk that involves how things load within the areas, but visually the difference should be purely academic. Of course there are cues you can pick up on like stuttering or shorter load times to tell you whether things are being dynamically streamed or not.

[Geldoff]

But that's the thing, there is no way that anyone can argue that the WORLD GEOMETRY is loaded dynamically to create a seamless environment (even as the definition you are suggesting) because there is NO DYNAMIC LOADING done whatsoever. There are clear lines where it loads every time you cross that point.

If it were loading the world dynamically then it would not load at the same point every time, it would adjust DYNAMICALLY to the most efficient use of resources.

AND TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR ABOUT THIS WORLD GEOMETRY IS THE TERRAIN OF THE WORLD, IE THE LANDMASS.

ALL HOUSES/BUILDINGS/MOBS/TREES etc.. ARE MESHES. THERE IS A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE. MESHES AND THEIR ASSOCIATED TEXTURES/NORMAL MAPS/SPEC MAPS ARE LOADED DYNAMICALLY, THIS HAS BEEN STANDARD PRACTICE FOR A LONG TIME. THE WORLD HOWEVER DOES NOT LOAD DYNAMICALLY AT ALL.

There are seams (going by either definition) at the zone edges no matter what way you spin it, there is nothing else to say about it.


EDIT: i don't mean the caps to look like i am shouting at you btw, just for the sake of clarity of what i believe is an important point.


I think you simply dont understand the term dynamic in this case. It is loaded "as needed", that is what is ment by dynamicly here (on the fly). The goal is to load it before it is necessary but sometimes it just doesnt completely work for whatever reason so when you finally hit the chunk crossing . . . stop . . . while it finishes loading.

This is entirely different then a system that would not load or unload anything without direct knowing input from the user. Clicking on a door for example and then getting a loading message while the zone behind the door is loaded, is quite different then the area behind the door beggining to be loaded as you cross a trigger approaching the door (they are using a predictive trigger to begin loading the next zone in anticipation of you going through the door, if all goes well, when you click on the door, the zone will already be loaded and you can walk right in).

This is what the term SEAMLESS WORLD means in gaming and it used by many many people, it is an industry term to describe the mechanic of streaming chuks as a background process so as to provide the user with no interuption in game play without having to load everything in the universe into memory (or design your game so small and sparse that that would even be possible).

[antiframe]

You only have one 'chunk' in memory at a time. That is why the game loads at clearly defined SEAMS. There is LOD terrain rendered with mob placement etc.. to hide the void you are talking about. But you cant just walk in there, as soon as you cross ANY seam in the game , it will have to load the next chunk.

@ Perfect, yes i agree absolutely, i think it is a terrible choice of description on Sigil's part.
Yes, I am aware of how the terrain and meshes work and that there's a point at which the game decides to load the next chunk. My gripe was with some calling these "zones" where in fact they are not. Yes, they are ares, regions, or any other synonym in English that means roughly the same thing, but in the jargon zone and chunk have a specific meaning.

Their architecture fits the bill for "seamless world" as done by others. Their implementation leaves much to be desired though. I think it's this unfortunate implementation that has people upset. When they cross a chunk line they pause to load, mobs can't cross chunks, and lights get wonky. These are implementation issues. When you look at other games that use this same architecture you don't see these issues because the architecture is implemented better. So, you don't get any load times at chunk lines in the better implementation, then see this one and go "hey, Sigil lied, it's not seamless!" Well, they are using a very similar architecture, just they didn't succeed in making the seams as unapparent as others.

Again, I would love to learn about this "other" architecture that's been successfuly used in *three* other MMORPGs, but I have no name, no reference, or any other information to go on. My suspicion is that it's a very similar architecture, only implemented properly and not bungled like in Vanguard. So, please, let me know what it is! I'm very curious as a software developer, and a geek at heart.

Here's to hoping that Sigil can fix their implementation soon and stop this very odd reaction from the community.

[Vega]

I think you simply dont understand the term dynamic in this case. It is loaded "as needed", that is what is ment by dynamicly here (on the fly). The goal is to load it before it is necessary but sometimes it just doesnt completely work for whatever reason so when you finally hit the chunk crossing . . . stop . . . while it finishes loading.

This is entirely different then a system that would not load or unload anything without direct knowing input from the user. Clicking on a door for example and then getting a loading message while the zone behind the door is loaded, is quite different then the area behind the door beggining to be loaded as you cross a trigger approaching the door (they are using a predictive trigger to begin loading the next zone in anticipation of you going through the door, if all goes well, when you click on the door, the zone will already be loaded and you can walk right in).

This is what the term SEAMLESS WORLD means in gaming and it used by many many people, it is an industry term to describe the mechanic of streaming chuks as a background process so as to provide the user with no interuption in game play without having to load everything in the universe into memory (or design your game so small and sparse that that would even be possible).

You know what, i cannot be bothered to keep repeating myself to you, when you have absolutely no intention of ever taking time to understand what i am saying. You have a really annoying personal vendetta against me just because i compared IF to BC, that is all this crap boils down to. You my friend need to learn to let go and just let things slide when you are incorrect.

As much as you think you are better than me, and as much as it hurts you to be wrong, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG ABOUT THIS.

What you are saying about non-dynamic loading of world geometry cued by the user, IS EXACTLY WHAT VANGUARD DOES.

[Zarkov]

Here's an experiment for you guys: The next time you hit a "chunk" border and have passed it, turn around and head the opposite way. At the exact same spot, the game will again change chunks, even if it's only a matter of seconds before you passed it the last time.

This means that the game isn't seamless.

WoW is seamless, because you can travel from one end of a map to the other, and the above mentioned phenomenon cannot be repeated there.

This is because the content is streamed seamlessly.

Yes, I know entering an instance isn't seamless. Then again, nobody is saying they are seamless either.

[Geldoff]

I will leave you to discover these alternative worlds by yourself. This is a Vanguard forum and hence my conversation will be focused on Vanguard and I shall refrain from mentioning other titles because I have already witnessed how the "vanbois" descend upon mention of other games and instantly attempt to evict those who mention other titles by name from their community. Nevertheless thankyou for clarifying what SoR is, one I have heard of but never played.

By the way, I made no reference to loading everything into memory. That would be silly to say the least. Imagine instead a scenario whereby everything within a certain range of your character is loaded into memory instead. As you move, the necessary resources within this radius are loaded or unloaded from memory as required. Such architecture also has a certain amount of asset retention in memory so for example doubling back upon your path would not result in unnecessary asset management. There is no hitching to be experienced because there are no chunks being loaded, only the required terrain and world data for the area around the character.

This is probably the simplest way I can describe it, and my description does almost no justice to the true elegance of such solutions, nor does it elaborate upon the complexity that is going on behind the scenes. In fact I'd go so far as to say that my explanation paints a poor picture and probably will lead to misconceptions of how such solutions work. I suggest you start reading up on middleware available to mmorpg developers but please leave out the middleware known as Nevrax Library (or NeL if you prefer) because it is most definitely not a seamless solution. I try to avoid going into complexities because I would rather not bore the populace with technicalities which is why I'm suggesting you evaluate alternative solutions; you certainly seem to be the type of person who is willing to broaden their mind as and when time allows for it.


I dont want to delve to far into details here as I dont really have time to think it out well and I really dont know the specific details of their mechanic here (although I have streamed with the same engine before). But I am sure what you mention is part of the solution they impliment (I mean of course?). It would not work for a total solution I believe, as what the user can and cannot (see versus interact with) use is a very dynamic figure in terms resources, especially in an MMO, so they devide them up into manageable groups (called chunks in this case, becuase they are actually parts of a larger zone "broken" down into pieces, or chunks).

So while they do dynamiclly and predictively load resources in a radius around the avatar, they also must have additional mechanics to deal with the content that this solution alone is not suited to fully handle.

Look I am not arguing that the system is working perfectly and is actually delivering a seamless environment. However, I am very seriously arguing that those of you who are crying foul and claiming Sigil mislead you, or misrepresented this mechnic, are simply just wrong. They are using the same mechnic here everyone else does and they were not the first to call it a "seamless world" and they were very upfront and open about exactly how they were going to achieve this. Its not perfect at the moment, but its perfectly legit.

[Melios]

Wow....talk about overreacting..... :rolleyes:

[Oren]

The boat situation isn't permanent.

On the other hand, I am still a bit disappointed that they couldn't make seamless zoning without load times when DAoC managed to do it (on a smaller scale of course) over half a decade ago. Hopefully that is something they keep improving because I really expected to barely notice the zone lines if I noticed them at all. But what we have now is just slightly faster zoning with no loading screen and no warning. Heck, they could at least put down an optional visible warning of a zone line if they can't get rid of the zone times.
Actually there is some kind of a visible warning to reaching a chunk border. If your torch is lit, you will notice that it doesn't illuminate the point beyond the chunk border. It looks bad actually :p

[Wasren]

Vanguard is more advanced than Everquest because Everquest had zones, while Vanguard has chunks. See? New word = advancement. Brad McQuaid's marketing degree kung fu is strong.

[ShadeVice]

Vanguard is more advanced than Everquest because Everquest had zones, while Vanguard has chunks. See? New word = advancement. Brad McQuaid's marketing degree kung fu is strong.

Experience my friend, experience.

[jones5414]

I thought that a seamless world meant you can take a ship and sail from one continent to another. Currently you cannot do that (well I haven't tried with a ship but I did try swimming far enough to hit an invisible wall telling me that a chunk is down). That means that currently the only way to travel between continents is by using porters. Is this a temporary condition? Will I be able in the future to take a ship and to sail off map on my way from Thestra to Kojan etc.?


Do you saying Sigil lied to us?

[ShadeVice]

Do you saying Sigil lied to us?

Does you school learn

[perfect]

Does you school learn

I no go school.

[Taly]

Sorry, I have to say something here: DAoC was zoned. The over land areas were not, but the cities and dungeons and RvR areas were.

Please excuse the interruption.

Actually, the RvR areas used to be tied in with the main lands so when the game came out, each realm had an entirely seamless outdoors. Of course, dungeons and cities had zone lines, and you had to zone into other realms, but we are also talking about a game released over six years ago. They did eventually change the layout of the frontiers, but now that makes the most used part of the game entirely seamless between all the realms.

Anyway, I didn't mean to get off on DAoC. I was just using it as an example of how even an old game did seamless right. I think I would have rather had Vanguard with some zones and some real seamless world like DAoC or (can't believe I am saying this) WoW than have those invisible zone lines all over the place.

[Melios]

Actually there is some kind of a visible warning to reaching a chunk border. If your torch is lit, you will notice that it doesn't illuminate the point beyond the chunk border. It looks bad actually :p

They really need to fix this....