Paladin / Cleric Survivability

[unst4blec0d3r]

Just wanted to get your take on the subject of survivability. I'll have to use a WoW example, because thats the only other MMO I can pull experience from.

In WoW, I had a lvl 60 warrior, pretty good raid lvl gear. In the end though I started to dislike the warrior because I was so dependent on healers that I didn't feel like much of a tank. Even a duo with a DPS class was lacking because if we had a hard mob to fight, if I ran out of hit points it was over.

Then I tried a paladin (the 2.0 patch version). That started to feel more fun. I felt like a tank because I was hard to bring down in both PvP and PvE. Take a dps class friend out for some grinding and we could really shine.

In Vanguard I started off with a Dread Knight. Love the class in concept, but it wasn't long before I started having flash backs of my warrior. I still felt I needed a healer at my back to be worth anything.

Now I'm trying a Cleric. My survivability shot through the roof. It reminded me a bit of my WoW paladin. Good armor, good heals, and respectable DPS, but nothing off the chart.

But in the back of my mind I still wonder about the Paladin class. And how it compares with the Cleric. Seems like the VG Paladin has less healing potential then the WoW paladin did. Is it enough? Is it enough to gain a higher lvl of survivability? Are the heals enough to keep a paladin and a dps class alive while out adventuring? Or does the paladin lose much of his healing power and survivability for the sake of aggro management?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping some MMO veterans can help me sort out how these two classes play out a bit at higher lvls.

[merpa]

Tanks are generally not good soloists, so they generally do need a healer to back them up.

The classes that solo well are generally classes that have ways of preventing the mob from doing any damage at all. No damage, no tank needed, no healing needed, just DPS.

DK is probably the defensive fighter best suited to soloing, but they do it using snare and fear. Again, no damage, no healing.

So yes, if you want to kill monsters of substantial difficulty, you will need a healer and at that point you will probably want to grab a DPS as well to speed things up.

The good news is that when you do want to play with others, you are the cornerstone of the group.

[Tem]

Just wanted to get your take on the subject of survivability. I'll have to use a WoW example, because thats the only other MMO I can pull experience from.

In WoW, I had a lvl 60 warrior, pretty good raid lvl gear. In the end though I started to dislike the warrior because I was so dependent on healers that I didn't feel like much of a tank. Even a duo with a DPS class was lacking because if we had a hard mob to fight, if I ran out of hit points it was over.

Then I tried a paladin (the 2.0 patch version). That started to feel more fun. I felt like a tank because I was hard to bring down in both PvP and PvE. Take a dps class friend out for some grinding and we could really shine.

In Vanguard I started off with a Dread Knight. Love the class in concept, but it wasn't long before I started having flash backs of my warrior. I still felt I needed a healer at my back to be worth anything.

Now I'm trying a Cleric. My survivability shot through the roof. It reminded me a bit of my WoW paladin. Good armor, good heals, and respectable DPS, but nothing off the chart.

But in the back of my mind I still wonder about the Paladin class. And how it compares with the Cleric. Seems like the VG Paladin has less healing potential then the WoW paladin did. Is it enough? Is it enough to gain a higher lvl of survivability? Are the heals enough to keep a paladin and a dps class alive while out adventuring? Or does the paladin lose much of his healing power and survivability for the sake of aggro management?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm hoping some MMO veterans can help me sort out how these two classes play out a bit at higher lvls.

I feel pretty safe when soloing. I'm not as safe as my disciple or cleric, but I can certainly hold my own. I pulled three 2dot monsters that were a level above me and I managed to survive without too much effort, though I had to use Lay Hands, which cost me about an hours worth of Virtue points. At 18 I get an instant-cast (group) heal that will certainly make things easier. I also get several CC abilities that will make fighting groups a lot easier to manage.

I too played a Paladin in WoW, and, so far, I don't think that the Vanguard version matches up in terms of surviving. Better DPS and a much better group tank, though. At least not yet. Later on I get some good invulnerable abilities that will let me heal much more easily, which will help a ton. Right now its not that I can't heal enough, it's that it takes too long to cast and I take too many interupts. Versus a lone monster it's not near as bad. When I get 4 or 5 second "bubbles" that will help out a ton.

I'm almost level 14 and I've died three times soloing, and one was to running into a level 17 5dot monster I didn't see. All of my other close calls I was able to pull it out using some Virtue abilities. Dictum only uses one point, does 300-450 damage and is on a 30 second cooldown. It helps a ton for hard fights.

[rabb1t]

I haven't played Pally and Cleric much, both times I tried them in beta (to around 10) they later got changed. So, their current form is different than my beta experience.

I've just recently started a Cleric bod and I'm at I think around 8? 9? Not a lot of experience, but I can say this for the two... your play style will differ greatly as a cleric depending on the group, while your style as Pally will effectively not change. The Pally will do it's thing by smacking the baddie in the face, with the very very occasional heal tossed to a group member. The Cleric runs between standing afar and burning things down with the ...anthesomethingerother... or getting up close and mixing it up melee style or standing back and just healing.

Like soloing as the Cleric I pretty much burn things down at range, they get up close, do 2-4 whacks and they are dead. Last night I grouped for the first time in that bod and it was a mix of smite/smack and healing others. I could very easily see myself going full healing though when fighting higher level critters in a large group. The damage spells would likely be resisted, and while you'd have the mitigation of a heavy tank you really wouldn’t want to be the focus of damage as you'd simply be interrupted constantly, so you'd probably hang back and play 'watch the bars go up and down'.

Completely different styles between the two.


*sneaks in recruitment*
[Barny] Haaaaaveee ya tried Bard? ;)

[Danth]

It shouldn't be surprising that the WoW Paladin plays very much like the Vanguard Cleric--the class called a Paladin in WoW was effectively a Cleric in both lore and implementation.

Danth

[iamnivek]

I haven't played Pally and Cleric much, both times I tried them in beta (to around 10) they later got changed. So, their current form is different than my beta experience.

I've just recently started a Cleric bod and I'm at I think around 8? 9? Not a lot of experience, but I can say this for the two... your play style will differ greatly as a cleric depending on the group, while your style as Pally will effectively not change. The Pally will do it's thing by smacking the baddie in the face, with the very very occasional heal tossed to a group member. The Cleric runs between standing afar and burning things down with the ...anthesomethingerother... or getting up close and mixing it up melee style or standing back and just healing.

Like soloing as the Cleric I pretty much burn things down at range, they get up close, do 2-4 whacks and they are dead. Last night I grouped for the first time in that bod and it was a mix of smite/smack and healing others. I could very easily see myself going full healing though when fighting higher level critters in a large group. The damage spells would likely be resisted, and while you'd have the mitigation of a heavy tank you really wouldn’t want to be the focus of damage as you'd simply be interrupted constantly, so you'd probably hang back and play 'watch the bars go up and down'.

Completely different styles between the two.


*sneaks in recruitment*
[Barny] Haaaaaveee ya tried Bard? ;)

I think the cleric class was meant to be able to melee and heal and "melt faces"

I think, if you have a good tank you should be able to auto attack, keep track of heals (heal when needed), special attack when its up, and melt faces when its up.

In fact, the cleric gets an ability to regen casting energy from melee attacks. So, to get full energy you have to melee, or you will run out of healing.

[Danth]

My wifey hates using Athanema. It doesn't do all that much more damage than a melee attack, has a cast time, and gets resisted a lot. On top of that it interferes with energy regeneration.

Clerics want to melee. By the upper teens you have a melee attack which replenishes your energy, a second melee attack which reduces mob damage output by 10% (effectively a slow), and a third which raises your group's attack damage fo 20 seconds. As a Cleric levels out of the teens, the class also gains access to some extremely powerful melee finishers--don't neglect that Dexterity stat! Standing in the back and managing the health bars is an option, but it's generally not the optimal method of playing a Cleric.


My Paladin felt flat-out worse than the wifey's Cleric at low levels. As we level, I'm catching up in general effectiveness. I've always been signifigantly more durable than her (well, since level 10). Clerics have the high armor class of a tank, but they lack the defensive combat form or high hit points.

Danth

[Multiplex]

The big difference I see between my War and Sham when soloing is my War doesn't have all the "Oh Poop" buttons that my Sham does. No run speed or roots... if sprint isn't up you're hosed.

[rabb1t]

That's why Bard is still my favorite. I totally miss heavy armor, but its versatility just goes light-years beyond the other classes.

Normally in games I don't mind and I play Paladin or Warrior, but I don't know, it seems really different here in VG.

I just wish they didn't have racial restrictions. I can see how it makes sense lore wise in some cases, but if you are playing a world that supposedly has trade between all the realms, there shouldn't be racial restrictions. :p