I, who was a Disciple

[Mhenlu]

I lost a bit of hope today..

I respected you Brad, you did good with EQ for what you were there for, and had me really hyped over VG. But after what was done to disciples today im left wondering the questions of foundation.

Blessed wind: *example BW3* Damages mob for 50% of weapon damage, plus 40. Once healed for 700 over 8 secs, now heals 208 over 8 seconds. Also, increased the endurance cost, from 30 to 46. Moving from 3 consecutive hits to 2 in attempts to critical chaining. Also, this ability did not, and still does not work on defensive targets other than yourself. Useless for healing anyone except the disciple. This was a solid and solo tool that other healers still get to enjoy with HoT's.

**healing potential= 1/4th previous.
**Endurance efficiency= Lose of 1/3
**Still does not affect defensive targets other than self.

Harmonious Bond: *example 2* Heals target for 1000 or so damage over 60 seconds, Cost, 2 Jin. Does not stick on target longer than 5 seconds. Further pushing disciple healing potential down.

In fact, lets forget the bonds, as all are broken except the endurance drain one, thanks for that.

Lao'Jin Flare: A neat heal for a moderate amount, 400 or so at 20, only costs 3 Jin. With the complete reduction in disciple critical rates, you further push this heal (which is not enough to keep anyone alive except as a last ditch "oh no" button) away from practicality from the loss of chain jin building.

Void Hand: It has no animation, and the damage numbers dont show overhead of the mob, leaving half wondering if it works, and everyone disappointed. 1 Jin earned, 24 endurance cost.

Our good heal, which does substantially less than clerics/shaman, is about 1000 at level 20, and takes 1/4 to 1/5 total energy.. the lesser quicker heal...even less efficient.

Oh but wait, we have the finisher that group heals for 475 once every minute or so. Not a bad finisher, cool down hampers its consistency, but Helpful, quite so, as its half the reason i can function in a group without feeling like a wasted slot.


Now on to what you did to damage, the critical rate especially. Its what, if not all that kept disciples looking good for damage. We managed to crit every 2nd or 3rd special attack, which allowed our finisher that deals nice damage (less than real offensive melee's by a load) and also throws a small +healing buff on our defensive target. A handy finisher, Too bad it only gets used every 2 fights. (which i might add worked perfectly as a duo with Blessed wind.

We had Good damage with Great sustainability before.
Now we have low damage with moderate to low stability.


How did such a sweeping change to the least played of the healer classes and nearly least of all classes played get passed so easily? Just a casual adjustment like no big deal that completely altered the soloability/groupability of an entire class. Its not like disciples were running the servers in droves, we were least played for a reason, it was a niche. But now, a healing class (universally a non inspiring role in gaming) is getting pushed down by a system that supports grouping?

You make defensive melee look good.........

[Cobalty2004]

They needed to do something with DSC's as they can solo 4dots like cake. But them nerfing you (which is fine) and not fixing your broken abilities is over the line.

[Mhenlu]

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

[Molitoth]

I think they will fix it in the future, but this nerf was extremly bad.
Most of our abilities render borderline useless. All we have going for us is FD, and it doesn't even work right.

[Halbe]

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

I was still killing lvl 20 3-dot mobs last night (I'm lvl 18), most of the time without worry. Took longer, yes.

But, in the same setting, I watched my lv 18 DK buddy get waxed by the same mobs.

Is it Sigil with the knee-jerk reactions, or is it you in response to the changes?

[Mhenlu]

I was still killing lvl 20 3-dot mobs last night (I'm lvl 18), most of the time without worry. Took longer, yes.

But, in the same setting, I watched my lv 18 DK buddy get waxed by the same mobs.

Is it Sigil with the knee-jerk reactions, or is it you in response to the changes?

Do you think killing level 20 3-dot mobs is rare? That only disciples or clerics can do it? The potential that disciples once had is cut in half or more. Your dreadknight buddy, a melee defensive class meant to tank and not solo was unable to solo something above his level and meant for a group, Holy crap, stop the presses, here's a clue, a lot of people can kill 3 dots slightly above their level given enough time. Tell your buddy to learn fear and dots.

I fully understand what a change like this could mean to and for disciples in the long run, if our power is cut at level 20 by half, i have no hope for the future levels. Do you fully comprehend it?

[Halbe]

Do you think killing level 20 3-dot mobs is rare? That only disciples or clerics can do it? The potential that disciples once had is cut in half or more. Your dreadknight buddy, a melee defensive class meant to tank and not solo was unable to solo something above his level and meant for a group, Holy crap, stop the presses, here's a clue, a lot of people can kill 3 dots slightly above their level given enough time. Tell your buddy to learn fear and dots.

I fully understand what a change like this could mean to and for disciples in the long run, if our power is cut at level 20 by half, i have no hope for the future levels. Do you fully comprehend it?

/sigh...

Here's a thought, take off those, "OMG MY CLASS GOT NERFED" blinders, quit having such rampent tunnel vision, and look at the big picture of what has been happening.

I've said this in about 10 threads now, but I'll say it again.

The reason that these drastic "nerfs" are taking place is do to the massive change in the way the con-system has been handled since the game went live.

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.

Now, your probably asking yourself, "But Halbe, I don't care what's best for the game, I only care about me. Me, Me, Me!!!"

Yes, I understand this, but have some patients.

It seems that classes are being normalized based on two concepts.

1.) How well do you do against a 3-dot solo?
2.) How do you effect groups?

In the case of Sorcs, they added WAY to much DPS to a group, so the ability that reflected this got nerfed.

Disciples were able to just walk through 3-dots with NO downtime and MUCH faster then most other classes. We had our dmg reduced.

Now, yes, our healing took a blow too. But, when they get bonds/BW/FP working on defensive targets, the sum of all three would have been overpowered beyond believe. They needed to do something, and they did.

In any case, back to your main concern, don't worry, you'll see the same effects on other classes in the comming week.

We arn't "Nerfed" or "Underpowered", we've been normalized for the new system. Others are going to be following.

[Mhenlu]

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm, As it stands, Disciples have been the most nerfed class post launch, if you were in beta, you knew the only reason disciples got played is because of a DPS increase in january. Its not normal when only 1 class gets pushed to the idea of correct con systems, thats abnormal, and makes the class affected subpar until all other classes have been similarly "normalized". The fact is, we are broken right now, this very second, we have abilities that you yourself agree we NEED to be viable, that do not function correctly, and at the same time, we got nerfed...

Oooh oooh disciples can solo 3 dots routinely, i dont care about that. I care that my role as healer for my consistent group is in jeopardy, while at the same time my ability to bring anything to the group besides bad healing is faltering.

In a group, they out DPS me so badly its hardly worth me fighting, from a healing standpoint, i have to fight furiously just to keep them alive because half my things dont work and the other half just got nerfed.

Let the people who solo'd constantly and without thought for other classes get lessened, but christ man, leave me with a class that doesnt feel like i got my nuts chopped off.

[Prediant]

What people don't understand is what they nerfed to oblivion is the only thing that made a Disciple a Disciple. Fair melee dps with endurance based healing. Now we cannot do either effectively.

The class is exactly how it was after the first pass on our final revamp in beta except we don't have the energy cost on our endurance heals, and everyone screamed then. Why would they go back to the same formula that they knew didn't work.

What makes a disciple different now except our negatives?

[Halbe]

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm, As it stands, Disciples have been the most nerfed class post launch, if you were in beta, you knew the only reason disciples got played is because of a DPS increase in january. Its not normal when only 1 class gets pushed to the idea of correct con systems, thats abnormal, and makes the class affected subpar until all other classes have been similarly "normalized". The fact is, we are broken right now, this very second, we have abilities that you yourself agree we NEED to be viable, that do not function correctly, and at the same time, we got nerfed...

Oooh oooh disciples can solo 3 dots routinely, i dont care about that. I care that my role as healer for my consistent group is in jeopardy, while at the same time my ability to bring anything to the group besides bad healing is faltering.

In a group, they out DPS me so badly its hardly worth me fighting, from a healing standpoint, i have to fight furiously just to keep them alive because half my things dont work and the other half just got nerfed.

Let the people who solo'd constantly and without thought for other classes get lessened, but christ man, leave me with a class that doesnt feel like i got my nuts chopped off.

Oh trust me, I know how things were in Beta.

Just killing even con 2-dots was a pain. In Qalia, the gnolls with their 70% healing debuff. If it hit you, you were in for a fight because how little DPS we did.

Now, I will never, ever disagree that the class isn't broken. It is. We know it. And on top of that, we got kicked in the teeth by being one of the first classes to really be normalized. When I say normalized, we arn't comparing ourselves to other classes, because they are yet to be reviewed. If we were the last class and this is the treatment we got, yes, I would complain.

However, we are not. We were one of the first to be normalized "against the system." How things SHOULD work, but currently don't.

Sigil had to do this. They had to make these changes to bring classes back down to atleast relative equallity.

Why?

Because, without it, XP normalization would be impossible. You couldn't possibly design an experience system around a class structure that is as random depending on whether you have 1, 2, 3 or a whole group of overpowered classes. You can normalize soloing when there are classes that can solo 10x faster then others. Now, obviously there are usually exceptions, such as a Necro, but the exceptions shoudn't be on-par with the rules.

Don't get me wrong, if there is one thing I'm pissed about, its that our broken abilities arn't fixed to adjust for the nerf.

I think if those fixes would have accompanied these nerfs, along with the reasoning behind these changes, I think things would have went alot smoother.

[Fingis]

Normalized? If we were normalized, it would be normal, in the norm,

I bet this has more to do with pvp than pve.

Disciples where probably racking PKs like Sauron when he took on the allies at Mordor.

PvE? meh, who cares?

[swerv]

If they wanted to nerf disciples and stop them soloing 3 or 4 dot equal con mobs why not just stick with nerfing dps?

We are meant to be healers, at least leave our heals alone. Cutting our endowment of life so drastically just stopped any reason for me bothering to get into melee, aswell as raising endurance costs for a skill that doesn't even work as intended! Now we're just a stand at the back and spam heals char.

One of the more interesting and challenging characters to play in a group just wrecked. These changes make me want to solo more.

[Cobalty2004]

/sigh...

Here's a thought, take off those, "OMG MY CLASS GOT NERFED" blinders, quit having such rampent tunnel vision, and look at the big picture of what has been happening.

I've said this in about 10 threads now, but I'll say it again.

The reason that these drastic "nerfs" are taking place is do to the massive change in the way the con-system has been handled since the game went live.

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.

Now, your probably asking yourself, "But Halbe, I don't care what's best for the game, I only care about me. Me, Me, Me!!!"

Yes, I understand this, but have some patients.

It seems that classes are being normalized based on two concepts.

1.) How well do you do against a 3-dot solo?
2.) How do you effect groups?

In the case of Sorcs, they added WAY to much DPS to a group, so the ability that reflected this got nerfed.

Disciples were able to just walk through 3-dots with NO downtime and MUCH faster then most other classes. We had our dmg reduced.

Now, yes, our healing took a blow too. But, when they get bonds/BW/FP working on defensive targets, the sum of all three would have been overpowered beyond believe. They needed to do something, and they did.

In any case, back to your main concern, don't worry, you'll see the same effects on other classes in the comming week.

We arn't "Nerfed" or "Underpowered", we've been normalized for the new system. Others are going to be following.

DSCs needed a nerf badly, any class that can solo an even 4dot can. But Sigil should fix thier other problems before nerfing them.

[Halbe]

DSCs needed a nerf badly, any class that can solo an even 4dot can. But Sigil should fix thier other problems before nerfing them.

Totally agree.

I'm not going to defend how they went about making these changes (or the order in which they were made), but the overall goal of them is the best thing they could have done for the game.

[Tallenn]

If you were unaware, here is the breakdown:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid

Now, can you see where the problem lies in the innitial design, and what is actually happening? Can you honestly, other then 2 dot, say any of these original design concepts were being met?

3-dots were being solo'd.
4-dots duo'd
5-dots 4 manned (Even a video of a severly underleveled group taking one down with just for people).
6-dot - Well, dunno.



Your assessment of the dot system is paraphrased, and badly. Here is the system from the manual:

One. Can be safely engaged by most adventurers fighting solo. Adventurers with strong combat skills can fight multiple one-dot enemies at a time.
Two. Can usually be safely engaged solo. Combat specialists might be able to take on two or three at a time, with some luck and planning.
Three. Requires planning and preparation to fight solo. Avoid multiple Threes unless fighting in a group.
Four. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a group.
Five. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a strong and well-organized group.
Six. Only the strongest and most proficient groups should even try. Probably best to wait until you’re a higher level, or are part of a raid.

Note that 3 dot mobs are intended to be soloed with planning, and as long as you can take them one at a time.

Also note that 4 dot mobs are intended to be grouped- but it doesn't specify a full group, as the it does for 5 dot mobs. Duos and trios are groups.

You should avoid paraphrasing if you can't keep to the actual meaning of what you are trying to paraphrase -unless of course you are doing it on purpose to falsely prove your point.

[Azyel]

If they wanted to nerf disciples and stop them soloing 3 or 4 dot equal con mobs why not just stick with nerfing dps?

We are meant to be healers, at least leave our heals alone. Cutting our endowment of life so drastically just stopped any reason for me bothering to get into melee, aswell as raising endurance costs for a skill that doesn't even work as intended! Now we're just a stand at the back and spam heals char.

One of the more interesting and challenging characters to play in a group just wrecked. These changes make me want to solo more.

I agree. Choosing a healer means the goal is to be an efficient healer... I don't care for the dps as much, i want to keep my full group healed. Disciples need jin to be efficient healers, now they cannot build enough and fast enough to do so, thus they became a stand back healer at which other classes are more efficient. Or is the intent to have disciple healing abilities less than other classes? Might be, just wish i known before i rolled one...

And if they decide to "adjust" shamans and clerics as such, is it intended that a full group needs 2 healers to keep the group alive?

[Mhenlu]

Just upsetting that after weeks of play, the class I had gotten use to and chose well before FOTM'ers gets so drastically nerfed and reduced. Im too sickened to bother logging in.

I really thought vanguard was gonna be the next great game out for us MMO'ers. Alas

[Halbe]

Your assessment of the dot system is paraphrased, and badly. Here is the system from the manual:

One. Can be safely engaged by most adventurers fighting solo. Adventurers with strong combat skills can fight multiple one-dot enemies at a time.
Two. Can usually be safely engaged solo. Combat specialists might be able to take on two or three at a time, with some luck and planning.
Three. Requires planning and preparation to fight solo. Avoid multiple Threes unless fighting in a group.
Four. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a group.
Five. Don’t attempt to engage unless you’re in a strong and well-organized group.
Six. Only the strongest and most proficient groups should even try. Probably best to wait until you’re a higher level, or are part of a raid.

Note that 3 dot mobs are intended to be soloed with planning, and as long as you can take them one at a time.

Also note that 4 dot mobs are intended to be grouped- but it doesn't specify a full group, as the it does for 5 dot mobs. Duos and trios are groups.

You should avoid paraphrasing if you can't keep to the actual meaning of what you are trying to paraphrase -unless of course you are doing it on purpose to falsely prove your point.

And here is a quote from the Silky Venom forums a few days ago from Tagad, a lead designer:

I went ahead and cut out the obviously inflamatory sections of this post. Now I pose the question, what level were you, how many group members did you have, and what challenge rating (number of dots) were the NPCs, and what level are the NPCs?

If you were, for example, in a full group of six, fighting 3 dots three levels under your level, you were not exactly "in the zone" as far as experience is concerned. I don't feel that we have done a good enough job explaining the different challenge ratings in the game to make things more clear for the playerbase at large.

1 Dot - pretty rare, solo swarm mobs
2 Dot - average solo NPC, not good experience for groups
3 Dot - "hard" solo NPC for some classes, good for duo's and trios
4 Dot - Group, 4 players for a single NPC, six for multi pulls
5 Dot + Group, six players suggested
----------------------------------------------

And now, my paraphrasing:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid
----------------------------------------------

Your thoughts?

Based on this, do you think I "twisted" the meaning to prove my point, or did you jump to conclusions and put your foot in your mouth?

I'll let you decide.

[Mhenlu]

And here is a quote from the Silky Venom forums a few days ago from Tagad, a lead designer:

I went ahead and cut out the obviously inflamatory sections of this post. Now I pose the question, what level were you, how many group members did you have, and what challenge rating (number of dots) were the NPCs, and what level are the NPCs?

If you were, for example, in a full group of six, fighting 3 dots three levels under your level, you were not exactly "in the zone" as far as experience is concerned. I don't feel that we have done a good enough job explaining the different challenge ratings in the game to make things more clear for the playerbase at large.

1 Dot - pretty rare, solo swarm mobs
2 Dot - average solo NPC, not good experience for groups
3 Dot - "hard" solo NPC for some classes, good for duo's and trios
4 Dot - Group, 4 players for a single NPC, six for multi pulls
5 Dot + Group, six players suggested
----------------------------------------------

And now, my paraphrasing:

1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid
----------------------------------------------

Your thoughts?

Based on this, do you think I "twisted" the meaning to prove my point, or did you jump to conclusions and put your foot in your mouth?

I'll let you decide.

Actually, you did twist it. 3 dots should be hard solo, not duo/trio required. 4 dot is for good trio's or groups intending multiple 4 dot mobs. 5 Dots is meant for full group.

[Halbe]

Actually, you did twist it. 3 dots should be hard solo, not duo/trio required. 4 dot is for good trio's or groups intending multiple 4 dot mobs. 5 Dots is meant for full group.

Oh you gotta be kidding me.

I don't think anyone is going to argue the validity of a class actually having a difficulty time soloing 3-dots.

Actually, ITS WHAT THEY DID TO US.

We NOW have a hard time.

However, they ARE GOOD for duo's and trio's, as I freaking said.

Come on, you guys are really stretching here.

Seriously, your going to attack my paraphrasing of these, when they are pretty much a restatement of what Tagad said, when your explination of 4-dots, that they are "good for trio's", is nowhere mentioned in his explination?

Hello pot, meet kettle?

[Mhenlu]

Oh you gotta be kidding me.

I don't think anyone is going to argue the validity of a class actually having a difficulty time soloing 3-dots.

Actually, ITS WHAT THEY DID TO US.

We NOW have a hard time.

However, they ARE GOOD for duo's and trio's, as I freaking said.

Come on, you guys are really stretching here.

Seriously, your going to attack my paraphrasing of these, when they are pretty much a restatement of what Tagad said, when your explination of 4-dots, that they are "good for trio's", is nowhere mentioned in his explination?

Hello pot, meet kettle?

And your paraphrasing of 3 dots had no mention of the word Solo like the original. Get off the box, learning what paraphrasing is, and what it is suppose to contain, then you can ride it again, you must be this tall.

[Sick]

Ya right we needed a nerf.

I logged on my lvl 21 disc last night I attacked about 6 lvl 15-16 mobs and i think i had 4 crits total.Thats more then a slight reduction,and yet monks didnt notice a bit of difference.When they were supposed to take more of a crit loss then us.I should be able to get lots of crits off mobns 6-7 lvl lower for god sakes.

You people dono what your talking about when you say this is fair.Go away until you know something.

Obviously this is broken,and will be fixed.

[Halbe]

And your paraphrasing of 3 dots had no mention of the word Solo like the original. Get off the box, learning what paraphrasing is, and what it is suppose to contain, then you can ride it again, you must be this tall.

I'm sorry, I focused on the words "It's good for Duo/Trio" and took that as the main focus of the level range.

Oh wait...

Paraphrasing:
- Putting the ideas of another author into your own words.
- It is a summary of the customer’s information with a focus on the key points.

Hmm....

Now, I would think that the "Key Point" of that is that the range is good for Duos/Trios.

In anycase, you got caught in a hypocritical pile of poo because you were guilty of the same thing you accuse me of. I never said you were "Guilty" of anything but accusing me of the same thing you wree guilty of.

This argument is pointless, because there isn't enough rational thought in the world that are gonna dry all the tears you've apparently spilled over this and will make you actually see through the "nerf" to the center of the issue.

Get on the ride? I would assume to "get on" one would have to actually be able to see it first. You've shown a pretty unbelieveable ability to blindly ignore whats right infront of you.

I'll get back on the ride, keep whinning and moaning like you do and your bound to miss it entirely.

[Mhenlu]

Here, let me elaborate another way.


Being able to solo a 3 dot, is not something that is suppose to be unheard of, it is suppose to be commonplace, just difficult. Disciples, previously, could do that, but with not so much difficulty, and some could even kill 4 dots with difficulty. A slight change would have fixed this, by either hitting the dps or hitting the longevity healing. Instead they nerfed both by more than slightly. Especially when compounded with what was already previously broken.

Classes that can not ever solo 3 dots need solo help/love, some could, some couldnt. Disciples were ones that could, and still can like ALL the healers, but the days of 4 are over for disciples, fine. But now we also lack the power to heal effectively when we are SUPPOSE to be able to heal just as well as the other healing archetypes. This is clearly not the case. Point is, its release time, and you have a broken healing class in a group oriented MMO, clearly, sigil screwed us.

I play on a pvp server, yes, that might not be your concern if you are on a PVE server. Its a bad feeling to lose over half your characters power in one patch. I feel like a soldier trained and thrown into war, when suddenly my rifle is stolen, sure, i might be able to survive, but it sure as hell isnt fun.

Yea, they might fix us, they might up our DPS to a more reasonable scale and fix our ability to keep groupmates alive. But you know what? After this knee jerk BS, I have no faith in them.

[Mhenlu]

I'm sorry, I focused on the words "It's good for Duo/Trio" and took that as the main focus of the level range.

Oh wait...

Paraphrasing:
- Putting the ideas of another author into your own words.
- It is a summary of the customer’s information with a focus on the key points.

Hmm....

Now, I would think that the "Key Point" of that is that the range is good for Duos/Trios.

In anycase, you got caught in a hypocritical pile of poo because you were guilty of the same thing you accuse me of. I never said you were "Guilty" of anything but accusing me of the same thing you wree guilty of.

This argument is pointless, because there isn't enough rational thought in the world that are gonna dry all the tears you've apparently spilled over this and will make you actually see through the "nerf" to the center of the issue.

Get on the ride? I would assume to "get on" one would have to actually be able to see it first. You've shown a pretty unbelieveable ability to blindly ignore whats right infront of you.

I'll get back on the ride, keep whinning and moaning like you do and your bound to miss it entirely.

You see, my paraphrase added information to attempt to further shed light on it, while yours took information present in the original and didnt use it. Perhaps I should elaborate more. 4 Dots are good for COMPETENT trio's, but dont worry, you could never be part of that from what ive seen.

[Airek]

Eh...

QQ

[Halbe]

4 Dots are good for COMPETENT trio's, but dont worry, you could never be part of that from what ive seen.

You lost me there.

This is, again, exactly what you accused me of. You accused me of adding/removing information that was not expicitly mentioned in post of Tagad. Therefore, based on your logic, it is "twisted".

Doesn't matter how much you add, still, according to you, wrong.

And competent? Please.

I've never seen someone whine so much about getting nerfed, then decide to attack another players ability.

Seriously, pathetic.

EVery post you make just re-enforces the sad truth that, infact, you are breathing my oxygen. By my percieved level of intelligence from you, this oxygen could be better used by, say, a small bush, a mouse, hell, even a lamp.

But, in any case, I'll put it in a verbage you are obviously familiar with..

"WHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!"

Get that?

[Halbe]

In any case, I'm done with this thread.

It's painfully obvious that you have no real defense in this, other then, "OMG, IUSED TO PWN, NOT NOW! NOT FAIR."

You've attacked my "paraphrasing", which a rational person looking at the original Tagad post and mine would just laugh at you for.

And then you've made yourself a hypocrite by doing the same thing you accused me for.

Sad.

[Mhenlu]

You still dont get that I said you took information away. I gave extra information, thereby taking none from the original.

And thats fine, insult me all you want to. I really dont care how you do it or go about it or that im somehow using oxygen that is of better use to a bush that produces oxygen of its own right, as little sense as that makes.

Seriously, whatever. You asked a question, did you twist it. I answered your question, at no time did I say I didnt know how to twist anything, nor did I say i wasnt going to, you did, and I called you on it, boo f'ing hoo man. You asked for it, its not like I was singling you out for your ignorance or mistakes, you sent invitations.

But I digress, arguing with you accomplishes nothing, except to quicken the tedium until disciples become worth playing again. So have at it, I refuse fling poo from my cage until i get a nana. You may continue.

[Lashnoll]

Just upsetting that after weeks of play, the class I had gotten use to and chose well before FOTM'ers gets so drastically nerfed and reduced. Im too sickened to bother logging in.

I really thought vanguard was gonna be the next great game out for us MMO'ers. Alas

I'm sorry but the game has been out since January 30th (26th for the pre-order head start). So that comment is really funny... it's usually something we read a couple months after a release. I know you may have played beta, but the "real thing" started less than 2 weeks ago..

And everyone (devs included) admitted the game was not what it should have been to be released just yet. So logically, everyone should assume that changes will be made to classes and game mechanics (hek everyone playing an MMO should know changes are bound to happen, even a couple years after the release...).

But now, peoples are crying about "nerfs", 10 days (ok.. 14 for pre-orders..) after the release of this "not yet finished" game? You gotta be kidding right?

I agree that Discs have their issues (in fact, all classes have their own sets of issues) but, like for the Sorcerors, they needed to start somewhere.. They could have started with the Clerics or any other classes that can do stuff that does'nt fit with the Dev's vision of the "con system" they want to implement.. but tough luck.. they started with your class.. You should just be happy they did, cause in the next days/weeks, Discs will get some "love" when they fix their broken skills, while other classes will be busy starting "I, who was a <insert OP class here> " thread like this one.

[Mhenlu]

I'm sorry but the game has been out since January 30th (26th for the pre-order head start). So that comment is really funny... it's usually something we read a couple months after a release. I know you may have played beta, but the "real thing" started less than 2 weeks ago..

And everyone (devs included) admitted the game was not what it should have been to be released just yet. So logically, everyone should assume that changes will be made to classes and game mechanics (hek everyone playing an MMO should know changes are bound to happen, even a couple years after the release...).

But now, peoples are crying about "nerfs", 10 days (ok.. 14 for pre-orders..) after the release of this "not yet finished" game? You gotta be kidding right?

I agree that Discs have their issues (in fact, all classes have their own sets of issues) but, like for the Sorcerors, they needed to start somewhere.. They could have started with the Clerics or any other classes that can do stuff that does'nt fit with the Dev's vision of the "con system" they want to implement.. but tough luck.. they started with your class.. You should just be happy they did, cause in the next days/weeks, Discs will get some "love" when they fix their broken skills, while other classes will be busy starting "I, who was a <insert OP class here> " thread like this one.

Im well aware of how long the game has been "released" and how long i have been playing my disciple. Thank you for clearing up that you can add. You damned people, i dont want to be a god class. I want to be a functioning as intended class. Im a f'ing healer who cant heal very well. I dont like it, im complaining. I bought this game, and i pay for its monthly fee, I reserve the right to bitch if i think the devs just wasted 2 weeks of my time on a class that cant do its description properly.

[Rulan]

cry more

[Halbe]

I lied...
Just can't resist.

You still dont get that I said you took information away. I gave extra information, thereby taking none from the original.
[/quote]

Paraphrasing the Book LoTR:

The book was about some rings and some hobbits. Then some SPACE MONKIES jumped out of nowhere, killing everyone. THen they shared a birthday cake.

*See what I did there, I added information.

Adding any information to a paraphrased statement doesn't make it valid. You accused me for removing information to twist the actual content, which, well, anyone reading this can go read it and judge for them selves. I personally take it when a dev says its HARD for one and GOOD for another, that it was intended for the good group. Guess thats just me.

Trio's probably could do 4-dots, but that isn't, according to Tagard, not the intention.


Seriously, whatever. You asked a question, did you twist it. I answered your question, at no time did I say I didnt know how to twist anything, nor did I say i wasnt going to, you did, and I called you on it, boo f'ing hoo man. You asked for it, its not like I was singling you out for your ignorance or mistakes, you sent invitations.


Again, you are looking for the most fragile of deviations from exactly what was said to prove a point. Your wrong in this case.

You accused me of not knowing how to paraphrase.

You take the key points and put it in your own words.

The focus, in my opinion, of the 3-dot mobs was that they were good for duo's/trio's. You disagree. That's fine, but don't accuse me of "twisting" it because any rational person wouldn't see it that way.

In fact, the idea that it should be HARD would only further my argument about why this change is good.

Why would I "twist" something that would help me?

[Lashnoll]

ok....

maybe next time you should consider starting a new MMO a couple months after its release.... even more so when the Devs themselves say that it needed a couple months more to be in the state they wanted it to be for release... because you have clearly shown everyone you don't have the patience to be part of the begining of a new mmo...

Can you just imagine the list of todos they have on their desks? They decided to go on with these adjustments before fixing things and see everyone "breezing" through group encounters mobs in non stop solo action like a lot of peoples were doing...

You feel "handicaped" right now and it's understandable.. but if you really have chosen this class and are dedicated to it and not just another FOTM.. you will not leave it, even during the hard times ahead... That's how real Disciples will stick out from the rest of the bunch..

....
They do the game, they decide the way they want to do it. The power you have as a customer, is yes, (sadly) to bitch.... I wonder if there is a limit to the bitching one can make for 15$ a month though... ;)

[Mower]

Im well aware of how long the game has been "released" and how long i have been playing my disciple. Thank you for clearing up that you can add. You damned people, i dont want to be a god class. I want to be a functioning as intended class. Im a f'ing healer who cant heal very well. I dont like it, im complaining. I bought this game, and i pay for its monthly fee, I reserve the right to bitch if i think the devs just wasted 2 weeks of my time on a class that cant do its description properly.

Do you really think (answer honnestly here please) the Disciple was create and conceive to be able to solo 3 or 4 dot mobs ?? Is it the true description of the class ??

The game is design to be play in a certain way, that kind of overpower class need to be tuned correctly to maintain a minimum level for the game.

You still able to sole 3 dot mob.... please just don't say it too loud you just p*ss off peoples who have difficulty doing 2 dot mobs... Time to roll something else the game don't worth to be played anymore :eek: !!!!!

Mower

[Tallenn]

The fact that you left out that 3 dot mobs are MEANT to be soloed by some classes, and the fact that you used that to justify why disciples should not be able to solo 3 dot mobs is precisely the point.

You used that omission to try to prove your point. That's how it was deceptive.

[Hikaru_Genji]

Halbe you are speaking about something you have absolutly no knowledge of.

Every healer can solo 3 dots with ease... is the effect of being able to replenish your lifebar many times in a single fight. There is no change that can be made(except making them not healers.. ex: even after these changes discs can still solo 3 dots) that will change this. Quit getting stuck on the dot # and look at exp rate and the bigger picture of a group based game.

This game uses the archtype system. All classes within the archtype system function similarly to each other in the area that archtype excells. Within the archtype there is uniqueness that seperates the classes from each other and makes their playstyle unique.

Healers: All should heal approximatly equal
Bloodmage: Caster DPS Healer
Cleric: Melee Tank healer
Disciple: Melee DPS Healer
Shaman: Diverse Healer(3 paths)

All classes do not and can not solo equally because they are unique, but this game isn't designed to be a solo game, so stop being so jealous. Disciple was a particularly bad combination for soloing since we had super high defense(being able to replenish our life many times) and high offense(probably too high, but that is part of our class design).

Before the changes if our abilities would have got their bugs fixed we would have been equivalent healers.(or closer to equivalent) Now we are far worse even if our abilities were fixed(which they are not).

What needs to be done:
1. Our dps needs to be made equivalent(or very similar) to bloodmages.

2. Our healing ability needs to be made equal to other healers. This means our abilities need to be reverted to prepatch and have the bugs fixed.

[Halbe]

The fact that you left out that 3 dot mobs are MEANT to be soloed by some classes, and the fact that you used that to justify why disciples should not be able to solo 3 dot mobs is precisely the point.

You used that omission to try to prove your point. That's how it was deceptive.


Really?

So your implying this?

Why?

I imply that, though the use of the term "Good for Groups/Trio", that it would be pretty easily understood that the intention is more for groups and trio.

Just as you've done by saying they SHOULD be solo'd by some classes. In the Quote I used, I didn't see this.

So it is ok for you to imply somehting from what you read, but not for me?

It's so clear now...

[Halbe]

Halbe you are speaking about something you have absolutly no knowledge of.


Level 18 Disciple.
Halbe - Varking Server.

Although I might not be 25+, I got a pretty good grasp of the class.



Every healer can solo 3 dots with ease... is the effect of being able to replenish your lifebar many times in a single fight. There is no change that can be made(except making them not healers.. ex: even after these changes discs can still solo 3 dots) that will change this. Quit getting stuck on the dot # and look at exp rate and the bigger picture of a group based game.


You must have missed my innitial posts.

The exp rate IS THE BIG PICTURE.

As I've said many times, you CAN NOT easily create an XP based system like Vanguard around the idea that you have so many different levels of soloability, and the idea that there are even further breakdowns of mobs, not only based on levels, but also the Con.

Look at the XP rate? How's that been? They can't decide on a steady flow. Why? Because of this massive variation. By getting each class to where the intended "con" is (i.e. No soloing 4-dots, mass chain killing 3-dots, etc..) they can more easily create the XP rate that you talk about.

Its an interrelated issue.



This game uses the archtype system. All classes within the archtype system function similarly to each other in the area that archtype excells. Within the archtype there is uniqueness that seperates the classes from each other and makes their playstyle unique.

Healers: All should heal approximatly equal
Bloodmage: Caster DPS Healer
Cleric: Melee Tank healer
Disciple: Melee DPS Healer
Shaman: Diverse Healer(3 paths)

All classes do not and can not solo equally because they are unique, but this game isn't designed to be a solo game, so stop being so jealous. Disciple was a particularly bad combination for soloing since we had super high defense(being able to replenish our life many times) and high offense(probably too high, but that is part of our class design).


.......

A particularly bad combination for soloing?

I gotta tell ya, anyone in game that knows me, and would see me level would honesty laugh at that statement.

Even Level 3-dots couldn't touch me. 2 at a time was the norm, and I COULD handle 3 if I had enough Jin.


Before the changes if our abilities would have got their bugs fixed we would have been equivalent healers.(or closer to equivalent) Now we are far worse even if our abilities were fixed(which they are not).

What needs to be done:
1. Our dps needs to be made equivalent(or very similar) to bloodmages.

2. Our healing ability needs to be made equal to other healers. This means our abilities need to be reverted to prepatch and have the bugs fixed.

Ok, seriously, be rational for a second...

In a group setting, we currently do not have BW, Falling petal buff, or Harmonious Bond.

I could still heal competently in a group.

Now, you don't think we'd be a tad overpowered with all these things when their fixed?

Also, again, it isn't about bringing us back UP. We're at the level of the system. It's about those classes that Sigil finds too powerful back down to the level intended.

[sweetdigs]

Ya right we needed a nerf.

I logged on my lvl 21 disc last night I attacked about 6 lvl 15-16 mobs and i think i had 4 crits total.Thats more then a slight reduction,and yet monks didnt notice a bit of difference.When they were supposed to take more of a crit loss then us.I should be able to get lots of crits off mobns 6-7 lvl lower for god sakes.

You people dono what your talking about when you say this is fair.Go away until you know something.

Obviously this is broken,and will be fixed.

Look, I normally just avoid these crybaby threads like the plague.

But when you guys constantly spout out factually inconsistent junk just to try to bolster your already pathetic arguments, that's when I get to call you out for being a tool. Monks took a horrid hit with the crit reduction (some suffered a 15%+ drop in their crit rates).

As for the rest of this thread.. Only halbe has some clue about understanding what is being done with these changes. The game has barely gone live. Balancing is going to occur. You're all acting like 2 year olds that had their shovel taken away in the sandbox. Sigil is doing what they feel is BEST for the game in the long run. Sigil isn't TRYING to ruin your enjoyment of the game [let's be serious, why would they want to piss off customers]. NO, the world is not out to get you. You all need to grow up.

My class got nerfed in this patch. Sucks. I'll deal with it. I'll learn to adapt. I'll alter my strategies to account for the changes. I will continue to have fun in the game. I won't be changing classes. I won't whine about the nerf because I know that the changes they are making are done with the intent of bringing everything into balance with their vision of how the game should work.

[Tallenn]

Really?

So your implying this?

Why?

I imply that, though the use of the term "Good for Groups/Trio", that it would be pretty easily understood that the intention is more for groups and trio.

Just as you've done by saying they SHOULD be solo'd by some classes. In the Quote I used, I didn't see this.

So it is ok for you to imply somehting from what you read, but not for me?

It's so clear now...

I'm not implying anything. I flat out stating it. You purposefully left out the fact that the manual and devs have said that 3 dots are meant to be soloed in order to justify a class being nerfed because they could solo 3 dots.

I did not make the opposite argument, as you seem to claim here. I merely pointed that your argument is flawed. I did not make an argument of my own. Even if I had, is it not reasonable to leave out that duos and trios can handle mobs that can be soloed? If not, then shouldn't we also have to mention that a raid can handle a 1 dot mob? It's true isn't it? If we don't say it, are we trying hide something? The difference here is that if we say that a certain mob can be soloed then we obviously should NOT have to mention that it can also be duoed or trioed. If one person can do it, then OF COURSE 2 or 3 can do it. However, the opposite is most definitely NOT true.

[Hikaru_Genji]

Yes we can function up to a point because our mana heals were untouched and nearly equivlanet to other healers, but our other heals are far worse, but lets be rational there is no reason we should be the worst healer(by a far margin).

Blessed Wind was inferior to other classes heal over time before the patch.(at level 10 it was 41hp/s bloodmages 53hp/s and cleric over 60hp/s). Now it has been cut in half. Before the 41hp/s was balanced because for an extra cost we could toss on a bond and bring the total to around 60hp/s, but we could only maintain it on one character and it required more time and maintainence. Blessed wind was balanced before the patch.

PS: Sweetdigs don't complain about people not using facts when you fail to do so yourself.

[Gwyny]

Disciples needed to be adjusted. What they could do was crazy. While I dont play a disciple (I play a Dread Knight), I have spent the past 18 levels duo'ing with one. He would laugh at me as he solo'd multiple 3 dot or single 4 dot mobs that I could not take on. Together we could take on 4 dot mobs 3 and 4 levels above us with the only down time waiting for me to regen some mana back. I'm pretty sure this was not intended. While doing this he would laugh about how he rarely needed to heal because of what he called his "free heals".

Disciples were not meant to do Monk level dmg while still healing. Whats the point of a monk then? They should be healers while supplying moderate dmg. In the brief time since the patch that hasnt changed has it?

Also I do not play on a PvP server I cant say for certain but im guessing a Disciple was next to impossible to kill. I know duels are not the same as real world pvp they do give me a pretty good idea. In the 30+ duels I had against my Disciple friend I have yet to beat him when hes trying. With their mana less heals and mana regen rate he would always finish with full mana. Then again maybe I just suck, but something says I should at least get a lucky win in there sometime.

Everyone just needs to take a deep breath and relax. Give the developers a chance to build the game as they intended before we start with the "Game Breaking" "X Class Broken" threads.

[sweetdigs]

PS: Sweetdigs don't complain about people not using facts when you fail to do so yourself.

The only fact I disputed was the one saying that monks weren't nerfed. They were. Their crit rates were greatly reduced. Do you deny this? I dont' recall making any other factual claims in my thread, but maybe you can point them out to me?

Endurance heals need to be weak. Endurance heals MUCH more quickly than energy. If endurance heals were as good as energy heals, you would have almost limitless healing (which was the case before). This "fix" needed to be done.

Also note that the devs have already posted that some of the changes made to DSCs weren't intentional and will be fixed.

[Derf]

Just upsetting that after weeks of play, the class I had gotten use to and chose well before FOTM'ers gets so drastically nerfed and reduced. Im too sickened to bother logging in.

I really thought vanguard was gonna be the next great game out for us MMO'ers. Alas

I don't get is how this is unexpected? This happens in all MMOs; plus you can't really believe that they're done with the class. Game play changes all the time in dynamic MMOs, characters get adjusted, mobs get adjusted, rewards get adjusted. If it does sicken you then maybe the milieu of MMOs is never going to please you

[sweetdigs]

I don't get is how this is unexpected? This happens in all MMOs; plus you can't really believe that they're done with the class. Game play changes all the time in dynamic MMOs, characters get adjusted, mobs get adjusted, rewards get adjusted. If it does sicken you then maybe the milieu of MMOs is never going to please you

Good point Derf.

Further, if you want your Constructive feedback to be taken seriously, try providing it in at least a somewhat rational and intelligent fashion. If you can chart out or explain why a particular skill is no longer useful or how it costs too much or how your class can't heal as well as another class, then fine, post that. Then the devs can actually look at some #s and see if things fit with what they want.

But just saying OMG my class is nerfed, it sucks, I won't play anymore, how could they do this to me.. well, that's going to get ignored and the devs aren't going to have anything useful to work with.

You can be your own best friend by criticizing some changes constructively and providing numerical feedback. I'm not one to say that mistakes are never made and that you should never provide feedback on changes.. far from it.. but you just need to do it in a manner that will ensure it gets considered..

[Halbe]

I'm not implying anything. I flat out stating it. You purposefully left out the fact that the manual and devs have said that 3 dots are meant to be soloed in order to justify a class being nerfed because they could solo 3 dots.

I did not make the opposite argument, as you seem to claim here. I merely pointed that your argument is flawed. I did not make an argument of my own. Even if I had, is it not reasonable to leave out that duos and trios can handle mobs that can be soloed? If not, then shouldn't we also have to mention that a raid can handle a 1 dot mob? It's true isn't it? If we don't say it, are we trying hide something? The difference here is that if we say that a certain mob can be soloed then we obviously should NOT have to mention that it can also be duoed or trioed. If one person can do it, then OF COURSE 2 or 3 can do it. However, the opposite is most definitely NOT true.

You are purposely leaving out that the devs HAVE STATED AS MY LINK SHOWED that the obvious intention of 3-dots is to have a duo or trio. Why on earth would they say that this is good xp for them and difficult for solo'ers if this was not the case?

"Yes, are intention is for a player to be doing these 3-dots solo, because, it is much more difficult for them."

Yea....

I never said anything was law. You're putting words into my mouth that is totally untrue. I said THE INTENT. THE PLAN. This is absolutly true. My omission was not saying that no class could solo, but rather the intent for these level ranges was the duo/trio. How can you deny that?

And for further reference, look at my other posts:

My first post, the one containing the paraphase, specifically said that the problem with Disc's was that they SOLO 3-DOT MOBS WITH LITTLE/NO DOWNTIME AND MUCH FASTER THEN OTHER CLASSES.

Now, by other classes, what does that mean? /GASP - It means that other classes can do them.

Now, lets go to page two.

Before I responded to you, I responded to another. Stating that NO ONE is going to question the validity of SOLOING A 3-DOT MOB IF IT IS DIFFICULT.

Which goes back to my first post, and I reitterate: DISCIPLES COULD SOLO 3-DOTS FASTER AND WITH LESS DOWNTIME THEN MOST OTHER CLASSES.

Seriously, you've taken one, ONE, word out of this whole thing and based your entire assumption on its admission. And even then, it was INTENT. Not law.

Seriously, read the entire freaking thread.

[shagg22]

Now, your probably asking yourself, "But Halbe, I don't care what's best for the game, I only care about me. Me, Me, Me!!!"


LOL so true.

[jordanburkex]

I lost a bit of hope today..

I respected you Brad, you did good with EQ for what you were there for, and had me really hyped over VG. But after what was done to disciples today im left wondering the questions of foundation.

Blessed wind: *example BW3* Damages mob for 50% of weapon damage, plus 40. Once healed for 700 over 8 secs, now heals 208 over 8 seconds. Also, increased the endurance cost, from 30 to 46. Moving from 3 consecutive hits to 2 in attempts to critical chaining. Also, this ability did not, and still does not work on defensive targets other than yourself. Useless for healing anyone except the disciple. This was a solid and solo tool that other healers still get to enjoy with HoT's.

**healing potential= 1/4th previous.
**Endurance efficiency= Lose of 1/3
**Still does not affect defensive targets other than self.

Harmonious Bond: *example 2* Heals target for 1000 or so damage over 60 seconds, Cost, 2 Jin. Does not stick on target longer than 5 seconds. Further pushing disciple healing potential down.

In fact, lets forget the bonds, as all are broken except the endurance drain one, thanks for that.

Lao'Jin Flare: A neat heal for a moderate amount, 400 or so at 20, only costs 3 Jin. With the complete reduction in disciple critical rates, you further push this heal (which is not enough to keep anyone alive except as a last ditch "oh no" button) away from practicality from the loss of chain jin building.

Void Hand: It has no animation, and the damage numbers dont show overhead of the mob, leaving half wondering if it works, and everyone disappointed. 1 Jin earned, 24 endurance cost.

Our good heal, which does substantially less than clerics/shaman, is about 1000 at level 20, and takes 1/4 to 1/5 total energy.. the lesser quicker heal...even less efficient.

Oh but wait, we have the finisher that group heals for 475 once every minute or so. Not a bad finisher, cool down hampers its consistency, but Helpful, quite so, as its half the reason i can function in a group without feeling like a wasted slot.


Now on to what you did to damage, the critical rate especially. Its what, if not all that kept disciples looking good for damage. We managed to crit every 2nd or 3rd special attack, which allowed our finisher that deals nice damage (less than real offensive melee's by a load) and also throws a small +healing buff on our defensive target. A handy finisher, Too bad it only gets used every 2 fights. (which i might add worked perfectly as a duo with Blessed wind.

We had Good damage with Great sustainability before.
Now we have low damage with moderate to low stability.


How did such a sweeping change to the least played of the healer classes and nearly least of all classes played get passed so easily? Just a casual adjustment like no big deal that completely altered the soloability/groupability of an entire class. Its not like disciples were running the servers in droves, we were least played for a reason, it was a niche. But now, a healing class (universally a non inspiring role in gaming) is getting pushed down by a system that supports grouping?

You make defensive melee look good.........

PEOPLE JUST SHUTUP AND GET A LIFE! BRAD ISNT GOING TO CHANGE A THING JUST BECAUSE SOME IMMATURE KID (OR EVEN WORSE, ADULT) CARE WAAAAYY TO MUCH ABOUT A COMPUTER GAME. This game was made for YOU it was made for whoever wants to enjoy it. Sheesh, some of you people make me want to go back to FFXI where nobody bitches, people just have fuN! Well they bitch about the economy a bit but that has nothing to do with the devs, it has to do with gold famers and they are doing a very good job getting them out. I thought vanguard would be a community of people that would back up the devs and players no matter what. Now that the game is released and REALLY in need of your dedication and support you all back out and start complaining as if this is YOUR game that something came along and toyed with. Well its not your game its brads game so deal with it. He didnt make you play it.

[Issan]

PEOPLE JUST SHUTUP AND GET A LIFE! BRAD ISNT GOING TO CHANGE A THING JUST BECAUSE SOME IMMATURE KID (OR EVEN WORSE, ADULT) CARE WAAAAYY TO MUCH ABOUT A COMPUTER GAME. This game was made for YOU it was made for whoever wants to enjoy it. Sheesh, some of you people make me want to go back to FFXI where nobody bitches, people just have fuN! Well they bitch about the economy a bit but that has nothing to do with the devs, it has to do with gold famers and they are doing a very good job getting them out. I thought vanguard would be a community of people that would back up the devs and players no matter what. Now that the game is released and REALLY in need of your dedication and support you all back out and start complaining as if this is YOUR game that something came along and toyed with. Well its not your game its brads game so deal with it. He didnt make you play it.

Wow now that s what i call clever.

Back to Topic:
Lets make a Deal you will get my Money for the next months and in return you
decrease the crit Chance "slightly" like stated in the Patch Notes.
Sounds fair to me.

[Haze]

PEOPLE JUST SHUTUP AND GET A LIFE! BRAD ISNT GOING TO CHANGE A THING JUST BECAUSE SOME IMMATURE KID (OR EVEN WORSE, ADULT) CARE WAAAAYY TO MUCH ABOUT A COMPUTER GAME. This game was made for YOU it was made for whoever wants to enjoy it. Sheesh, some of you people make me want to go back to FFXI where nobody bitches, people just have fuN! Well they bitch about the economy a bit but that has nothing to do with the devs, it has to do with gold famers and they are doing a very good job getting them out. I thought vanguard would be a community of people that would back up the devs and players no matter what. Now that the game is released and REALLY in need of your dedication and support you all back out and start complaining as if this is YOUR game that something came along and toyed with. Well its not your game its brads game so deal with it. He didnt make you play it.



EQ people scare me

[Therian]

Heh. They reduced our damage level to something a little saner. Good. They mucked up the cost of Blessed Wind a little, they didn't fix the broken bonds. Unfortunate.

The reduction in damage was expected by all who knew what classes are supposed to be capable of. It now takes longer to kill stuff (and Clarity becomes a vital skill rather than an ignored one). It will, of course, be better when they unscramble the problems with our bonds and fix the cost of Blessed Wind.

I've been expecting the reduction to disciple's overpowered state and the subsequent screams of people who were mainly interested in playing an overpowered class ever since we became abruptly overpowered just before end of beta. We still need a little tweaking and fixing, yeah, but we're far from unplayable.

As for the two dot/three dot argument - however you try and deconstruct Tagad's post and the official description, three dots are meant for small groups. It may be _possible_ to solo them for some classes, but at the same time it should be Damn Hard. For disciples at release it was a cake-walk, and they've attempted to fix that. That's all.

[Padan]

I've got to admit I'm somewhat surprised by this nerf..errr...normalization. I realize that Disciples had great survivability but I thought this was by design. I really don't care if they could solo 3 Dots with ease. It still took a long time to kill 3 dots and was not a good source of xp. It was easier just to kill 2 dots for exp like every other class in the game.

I haven't played with the changes yet on my disciple. He plays on Varking and these nerfs worry me a bit. The disciples saving grace was the fact that he could rule in melee, but outside of his little island he was toothless. He has no ranged attacks, no cc, no way to get out of cc, no snares, no speed buff (of worth) and his effectiveness is controlled by his amount of Jin which is built via melee involvement. Bonds cost Jin and were pretty much the source for Disciple buffs and debuffs. If you don't want to fight a disciple in PvP you simply have to run away. He can do nothing to prevent it. Even clerics get a root. I thought this was fairly balanced.

I'm not sure this nerf has changed that. I will not jump to conclusions, but it doesn't look good. Crit rates and finishers were THE source of burst damage for a Disciple. You take away that burst damage, you take away a very large amount of PvP threat.

One thing is crystal clear. Clerics your nerf is in the pipe. I have one of those too and they are even more powerful than the Disciples were.

If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I would bet that this adjustment takes PvP Disciples from underplayed to damn near extinct on PvP servers. Halbe enjoy your status on Varking. You will be a rare breed.

By the way, if you think I'm complaining in some way about this, I'm not. I have all 4 healing archetypes and play them equally. I'm not so sure about the Disciple now but I'll see for myself. I've played MMO's for a long time and nerfs are a routine part of the game. However, adjustments to a class are normally smaller and slowly increased until the sweet spot is found. From what I heard in game last night from other Disciples, its like they had their legs cut out from under them.

[Viktery]

Yesterday was fun.
All the griping and moaning.
But its just not that serious anymore.

Ive done a little bit of testing, finally have a reason to use some of my attribute points, to get my heals and damage up, which should put closer to where I was pre-patch.

Things will change in this game, especially in the early months, its to be expected.
Just like any other class, there will be changes. Just keep your cool peoples, if you like the class, keep playing it.

Living in the past isnt good for anything but nostalgia. I am already kind of tired of the "I use to be able to......" posts. When it comes to PvE damage. Which, well, to me, I dont care much about, as I am on a PvP server.
After getting jumped and easily handling 4 different fights and killing 2 rogues, a sorc, and a bloodmage. Im just as cozy as before, sure different play style, but lets see what happens over the next few weeks.

I think everyone can relax some, make more positive noted posts. Not sucking up positive, I mean with realistic settings, and expectations.
To me....right now we need to make a huge uproar about fixing the spells that are broke. When I look through the pasts posts, I see more "crit this, and crit that" than anyhthing. And that could have easily attributed to them messing with crits first, before spell bugs.

Lets make sure the next message is sent loud and clear.

Fix the bugs on our spells next. PLEASE.

Blessed Wind

Endowment of Life

Void Hand

Counter Attack

etc etc.

Thanks

[Zind]

I think its sad that the Dev's took all the "hype" people have been spewing about how easily Disc's could kill +0 to +3 three-dots, or even +0 to +2 four dot mobs to heart and based their nerfs on that. People who went out and killed equal+ lvl'd 3-dots were only doing so to brag about it, even more so with four dots. Killing them was/is a total waste of time, unless you want to brag.

I stayed away from 3-dots at all levels because it was inefficient to kill them, and I only went after a 4-dot named once (actually fought it five times, 3/2, and it was 3 lvls under me). It was much, much better to go after +0 to +2 two-dot mobs to gain XP. So using our ability to go out and solo 3-dots, and the occasional 4-dot as a basis of this degree of change is just sad.

There have been plenty of reasonable posts in various threads about how these changes went too far, no one can say the changes are "ok"...and have me believe them. The absolute best way I can look at them is that the Dev's are still in "Beta mode" and trying to find the low point in order to bring things back up a bit.

[Shawnsan]

However, we are not. We were one of the first to be normalized "against the system." How things SHOULD work, but currently don't.

Sigil had to do this. They had to make these changes to bring classes back down to atleast relative equallity.



This needs addressing as This is the PROBLEM. Over 1/3rd of skills didn't work and STILL don't work.

Only ONE of them (BW) has been mentioned as being in the works for being fixed.

Bonds? Heal buffs? ALL NOT WORKING.

Maybe if they were and people could see the BW healing at Almost the amount it was pre -nerf it wouldn't be so bad.

[Halbe]

This needs addressing as This is the PROBLEM. Over 1/3rd of skills didn't work and STILL don't work.

Only ONE of them (BW) has been mentioned as being in the works for being fixed.

Bonds? Heal buffs? ALL NOT WORKING.

Maybe if they were and people could see the BW healing at Almost the amount it was pre -nerf it wouldn't be so bad.

Hm, was wondering where this thread went...

Anyway, you are right.

The severity of the nerf was only multiplied because there are still issues that need to be addressed.

My personal opinion is that:

1.) They went a "bit" too far with the dmg nerf. Not even damage, but our ability to generate Jin in a group setting through crits.
2.) With our healing at it's current rate, I think we will still be pretty balanced if they ever fix our freaking broken abilities - BW, Harmo. Bond, FP Bonus, etc..

[Zind]

I wouldn't be surprised if the person that did these changes wasn't aware that the buffs given by FP / WL were not working, and its entirely possible said person still doesn't know. If those buffs -did- work, and -did- stack, I can see the 50% reduction in healing from BW being necessary. But since those buff's do not work....it makes BW bad bad bad.

I'm also scared that the only response we're gotten from any Sigil rep is that they are planning on returning BW's End cost back to where it was. Makes me think they are still unaware of the other broken aspects of our skills.

[mlp071]

EQ people scare me


WoW people scare me even more.

On the other hand , read Elrar's reply on one of the posts , you wil get fixed BW and thats it.

Disc was grossly overpowered and needed to be fixed. You don't like it go back to WoW.

So stop crying and go on with a game.

Geesh , they should have rated this game "for 25+ y/o only":o

[Laiboch]

Heh. They reduced our damage level to something a little saner. Good. They mucked up the cost of Blessed Wind a little, they didn't fix the broken bonds. Unfortunate.

10% is not sane. It is just as much of a problem as the 60% rate was before only on the opposite extreme.

The reduction in damage was expected by all who knew what classes are supposed to be capable of. It now takes longer to kill stuff (and Clarity becomes a vital skill rather than an ignored one). It will, of course, be better when they unscramble the problems with our bonds and fix the cost of Blessed Wind.

Beta testers fought for months to get our damage up because the Disciple was the lowest DPS class in the game. Welcome back to beta 3.

I've been expecting the reduction to disciple's overpowered state and the subsequent screams of people who were mainly interested in playing an overpowered class ever since we became abruptly overpowered just before end of beta. We still need a little tweaking and fixing, yeah, but we're far from unplayable.

Disciple is the second lowest played class for a reason, and that reason just expanded. This was not a reduction it dropped DPS by close to 70%. Again the Disciple is the lowest DPS class in the game, with broken bonds, weaker heals and less survivablity than we had in Beta 3.

As for the two dot/three dot argument - however you try and deconstruct Tagad's post and the official description, three dots are meant for small groups. It may be _possible_ to solo them for some classes, but at the same time it should be Damn Hard. For disciples at release it was a cake-walk, and they've attempted to fix that. That's all.

The actual statement were 2-3 dot mobs casual to challenging solo / duo content. It is not any harder to solo 3 dot mobs it just take alot longer. Again welcome to beta 3.

The end translation of this is with the current changes that do not even fix the base issue the Disciple is again the lowest DPS class, but now with less healing ability.

Before the "fix" the Disciple was not even the best solo class. It was up there, but not the best. Being able to do something does not mean its a benefit. Yes you can fight a 4 dot mob, but the time invested is not worth the exchange. There are other classes that can still kill faster than the Disciple even when it comes to 3 dot mobs. Sigil is trying to fix the symptom, but not addressing the cause.

[Bushei]

I'm a level 18 disc. After hearing all the crying (read - the ones that bitched, not ones that gave constructive feedback) I was semi worried about getting off of work and loging in once I got home. However ....

Solo wise - (All testing here done with starting @ zero jin)

I find a lvl 16-3*** mob, granted 2 levels below me, but meh, I have yet to fight anything since the change. I finished the fight in ~30/40 sec, had full health, 50% endurance, 3 jin, and 100% energy when he droped. Now, was it the crit attack button smashing spam fest it used to be? No. But honestly it was 10x more fun becuase I had to play and plan my attacks accordingly.

Now I wander off and find some level 20-2** mobs. As I'm working one, get'em to 30% health, I get another add, level 20-2**. I finish off the one and start to work on the other. Guess what? I finished the fight with 80% health, 25% endurance, 90% energy, 5 jin and killed both in ~60 sec to 90 sec.

With the above examples - I really don't think 'we' as a community should be coming down on the Devs anywhere near the extent we are.

I'm yet to do any group testing but to be honest - Seeing my 'big' heal hits for over 1k, and takes 10/15% energy paired with (albiet lower) instant heals, and the chain heal we can get, clarity for insta crit to allow for the healing finisher - I think we are fine for the time being given the current state of the game. Are there still broken specials? Yes. Should this surprise anyone? No.

Between the facts that we can heal, instant heal w/out energy, attack w/out endurance, HoT through an attack, heal through attack chains, endurance sap, damage shield, medocre buffs, 100% dodge special, 100% crit special, DoT, FD AND Rez - This is just at level 18 - I feel the ones of you that are really throwing a fit are way out of place, not that its anything new for the MMO genre.

Some of us disc need to grow a pair and just play - it is not *that* bad.

[Vidrak]

Some of us disc need to grow a pair and just play - it is not *that* bad.
Well, it isn't that easy for some. If it isn't up on a silver platter, this is where they come. And I think we can all agree, the 100 threads on the DSC nerf is pretty stupid and childish. We KNOW what the issues are and so do the Dev's. This is just as bad as the beta boards, if not worse. /sigh

This wreaks of the necro's in Beta 3, oh how they cried. Just get over it, even then, Dev's have already stated they took it too far. I hate, well love, to say it, but I told you so. They hit you with the nerf bat full swing, then crank it back to a balanced state. There are fixes coming NEXT PATCH, just as I said when the 1000's of posts popped up. Just give it a day, or two, sheesh. If it's so bad, quit, we will all be better without most of these people anyways.

It is sad, but I think I am about done with these boards already. Thankfully, the vocal majority (aka, 90% of the people here) is the gaming minority, or man, this would be worse the straight up worst community ever. So here come the next 100 posts of 12 yr olds on thier recess break, let the flames come!

[Halbe]

Sigil is trying to fix the symptom, but not addressing the cause.


What do you believe the cause is?

The underlying problem is the XP curve. It is impossible to cater to.

3-dots should not be the basis that each class is judged against for soloing.

How do you base a system around a "Con" system, when the cons are rather "blurred" to many classes?

The Cause of all the heartache is the botched XP system. I applaud Sigil, instead of patching by trying to tweak Xp alittle here, alittle there, etc., and finally doing what had to be known as the unpopular thing and fixing it.

[hawkeye_pierce2]

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

you might be right, and that's all most of us are worried about, even as we gripe "hey clerics are teh uber" we really don't mean it, beacuse we know they're next along with shammy. i think we're desperate not to be relegated to cookie cutter MMO straight or HoT healers. we were excited (even the rest of vanguard classes were) that for the first time ever, literally ever, a healer could fight. we still can solo so you failed in that attempt to knock us down, and in failing you just dumbed down our gameplay to "melee + mash heal button = win SLOWER than before" and took away the coolest sound in gaming history...ripping chains! i know, know in my heart, that we're now critting way too low to the point i have no problem letting some other class control my bot for one hour. when they go 3-4 fights without a single crit (of any kind) they will understand. nerfing was always, always the proper course of action since launch for disciples, but you over-nerfed, it's just...that...simple. most disciples are extremely mature and very, very heady players with lots of love for the game, other classes and even people in general (psychologically why most chose this profession on vanguard). you non-disciples (and devs) are just going to have to trust and believe us for once, sorry. everything you did was mostly ok with the exception that you rolled it out while the game is broken, rolled it out while our BONDS are still broken, rolled it out under the guise of "global issues affecting everyone" and rolled it out too rushed, too soon, too far. give us back another extra 5-10% increase in chance to crit (no where NEAR what it was, since we were godlike before and that's no fun) and give us a better "somewhere in the middle of pre and post patch" version of blessed wind. fix our broken animations and bonds, and don't forget our tank and monk brethren as well, since they're hurting bigtime right now too (they're accidentally gimped and underpowered with lots of broken abilities). we love all you critics, you've very honestly impressed me with your rebuttals but thankfully even our non-disciple critics are learning "wow oops, sorry, they did over-gimp you even though you needed some gimping" that's all we're saying too! when i said everyone's right about this nerf, i meant everyone (even our critics). very good points all around, now we just need someone to listen but the dev posted already saying he'll forward this stuff today to the class developer, it's all good for now. just stand by and everyone be patient (myself included, /posts off).

[hawkeye_pierce2]

Ill be the first to say that either the damage needs to be toned a tad (and I do mean a tad, as we didnt do nearly the DPS of rangers or monks and the like) which allowed what survivability that we had to be sufficient to solo some outrageous mobs.

Or even there could have been a small change to the longevity that a disc could fight, but to do both, while leaving class breaking bugs in, is really unsettling. I am totally considering rerolling to something not likely to get knee jerked into oblivion, like a dreadknight.

I tried to go the healer who doesnt suck completely at combat route. I guess I should've went cleric, or is that today's prime time patch? They probably arent finished until healers are put into their respective places by sigil, group bitches.

I've got to admit I'm somewhat surprised by this nerf..errr...normalization. I realize that Disciples had great survivability but I thought this was by design. I really don't care if they could solo 3 Dots with ease. It still took a long time to kill 3 dots and was not a good source of xp. It was easier just to kill 2 dots for exp like every other class in the game.

I haven't played with the changes yet on my disciple. He plays on Varking and these nerfs worry me a bit. The disciples saving grace was the fact that he could rule in melee, but outside of his little island he was toothless. He has no ranged attacks, no cc, no way to get out of cc, no snares, no speed buff (of worth) and his effectiveness is controlled by his amount of Jin which is built via melee involvement. Bonds cost Jin and were pretty much the source for Disciple buffs and debuffs. If you don't want to fight a disciple in PvP you simply have to run away. He can do nothing to prevent it. Even clerics get a root. I thought this was fairly balanced.

I'm not sure this nerf has changed that. I will not jump to conclusions, but it doesn't look good. Crit rates and finishers were THE source of burst damage for a Disciple. You take away that burst damage, you take away a very large amount of PvP threat.

One thing is crystal clear. Clerics your nerf is in the pipe. I have one of those too and they are even more powerful than the Disciples were.

If I were a betting man, and I'm not, I would bet that this adjustment takes PvP Disciples from underplayed to damn near extinct on PvP servers. Halbe enjoy your status on Varking. You will be a rare breed.

By the way, if you think I'm complaining in some way about this, I'm not. I have all 4 healing archetypes and play them equally. I'm not so sure about the Disciple now but I'll see for myself. I've played MMO's for a long time and nerfs are a routine part of the game. However, adjustments to a class are normally smaller and slowly increased until the sweet spot is found. From what I heard in game last night from other Disciples, its like they had their legs cut out from under them.

word up, dead on, qfe, and all that! i like balanced posts with diplomatic angles, nice work.

[Molitoth]

you might be right, and that's all most of us are worried about, even as we gripe "hey clerics are teh uber" we really don't mean it, beacuse we know they're next along with shammy. i think we're desperate not to be relegated to cookie cutter MMO straight or HoT healers. we were excited (even the rest of vanguard classes were) that for the first time ever, literally ever, a healer could fight. we still can solo so you failed in that attempt to knock us down, and in failing you just dumbed down our gameplay to "melee + mash heal button = win SLOWER than before" and took away the coolest sound in gaming history...ripping chains! i know, know in my heart, that we're now critting way too low to the point i have no problem letting some other class control my bot for one hour. when they go 3-4 fights without a single crit (of any kind) they will understand. nerfing was always, always the proper course of action since launch for disciples, but you over-nerfed, it's just...that...simple. most disciples are extremely mature and very, very heady players with lots of love for the game, other classes and even people in general (psychologically why most chose this profession on vanguard). you non-disciples (and devs) are just going to have to trust and believe us for once, sorry. everything you did was mostly ok with the exception that you rolled it out while the game is broken, rolled it out while our BONDS are still broken, rolled it out under the guise of "global issues affecting everyone" and rolled it out too rushed, too soon, too far. give us back another extra 5-10% increase in chance to crit (no where NEAR what it was, since we were godlike before and that's no fun) and give us a better "somewhere in the middle of pre and post patch" version of blessed wind. fix our broken animations and bonds, and don't forget our tank and monk brethren as well, since they're hurting bigtime right now too (they're accidentally gimped and underpowered with lots of broken abilities). we love all you critics, you've very honestly impressed me with your rebuttals but thankfully even our non-disciple critics are learning "wow oops, sorry, they did over-gimp you even though you needed some gimping" that's all we're saying too! when i said everyone's right about this nerf, i meant everyone (even our critics). very good points all around, now we just need someone to listen but the dev posted already saying he'll forward this stuff today to the class developer, it's all good for now. just stand by and everyone be patient (myself included, /posts off).



Pretty much every one of your posts is spot on.
/clap

[swerv]

Well, it isn't that easy for some. If it isn't up on a silver platter, this is where they come. And I think we can all agree, the 100 threads on the DSC nerf is pretty stupid and childish. We KNOW what the issues are and so do the Dev's. This is just as bad as the beta boards, if not worse. /sigh

This wreaks of the necro's in Beta 3, oh how they cried. Just get over it, even then, Dev's have already stated they took it too far. I hate, well love, to say it, but I told you so. They hit you with the nerf bat full swing, then crank it back to a balanced state. There are fixes coming NEXT PATCH, just as I said when the 1000's of posts popped up. Just give it a day, or two, sheesh. If it's so bad, quit, we will all be better without most of these people anyways.

It is sad, but I think I am about done with these boards already. Thankfully, the vocal majority (aka, 90% of the people here) is the gaming minority, or man, this would be worse the straight up worst community ever. So here come the next 100 posts of 12 yr olds on thier recess break, let the flames come!

The amount of crap you come out with it almost sounds as if you want the attention of flame posts.

Sad, play the game not the forum.

[DCpunk]

To sum up this thread:

Halbe: 35

Mhenlu: -10

Everyone else: 0

[sezyboy]

My opinions BEWARE! :p

Things as a disciple that i dont care about:
1) Damage - why, because as long as im doing some i can be happy
2) Be able to solo 3 dots and higher - why? cause what fun is that, might as well play Oblivion or some single player RPG

Things that i do care about:
1) Blessed wind - end fixed or not i still cant heal an ally with it
2) Harmonious Bonds - Useless cause they are broken, use it to change the scenery for fun at times. Advertised to be one of the key features of DSC
3) Negative Bonds - what did i just do to the enemy? No info in combat chat. I guess i will have to "trust" that its working
4) Void Hand animations - come on just throw a sprite so i can see that it activated without checking the combat chat.
5) Finally crits. I barely do them even with fists. Damage i dont care. Its concordant hand activation to heal the group.

Did i care that the nerf affected my combat capabilities. No. My healing capabilities (which are at 70% before nerf) and now at 50% or less. Of course.

Did this uproar come about because the forums are filled with immature people? I dont think so. I just think people were flabbergasted that they brought out the bat without fixing what DSC's key features that makes them unique.

[Laiboch]

I’ll go step by step to answer you as completely as possible.

What do you believe the cause is?

Lack of over all balance between the game environment and classes. The spread between the “dot levels” of mobs is to general and should be more specific.

Beta testers proposed this system with minor differences dozens of times.

1-2 dot Average solo content based on a curve with Defensive fighters set as the middle ground.

3-4 dot Group orented from 3-6 players.

5 dot Hard named for a group / low end raid mobs

6 raid mobs.

Brad as well as other dev’s told us flat out this was not an option and they were going with the 1-3 dots as easy to difficult solo mobs with 4-6 being anything from group to raid mobs.

We also told them the exact issue that is happening now with XP and class discrepancy would happen. They made light of us and said they knew what they were doing….

The underlying problem is the XP curve. It is impossible to cater to.

The curve isn’t the issue. You could set xp at any level as long as it was consistent and balanced from level to level. The other issue is that rather than looking at the base imbalance and picking a class to put as the focus or the middle ground they have classes bouncing all over left field.

They should have taken the warrior and made that as the balancing class. The prime defensive fighter from there they can scale damage up in percentages to maintain balance. With say a 20% higher base damage they lose say 20% average AC or what not to compensate.

Your prime DPS classes should average about 30% higher than your fulcrum with some having the ability to do short bursts at the cost of maintained DPS. Yes your Sorcerer can nuke for 800, but the cool down time and the Energy cost should bring them back in balance by saying no you cant nuke for 800 non stop it is a tool to be used when needed not spammed.

Healers should clock in at about 20% less average DPS, but their healing spells should be tuned for the content they are against. If your average main tank only has 800 HP you should not have a healer healing for 950

Take my Disciple. I have a fast heal for 520 and a slower heal for 1120 at level 18. With the damage spread being as dramatic as it is from level to level it makes many balancing issues rampant. The group 4 dot mobs hit hard enough to need those kinds of heals, but then you get to 2 and 3 dot mobs that do not hit as hard and those heals make the healing classes over powered for content. The 6 dot system is to spread out so you have to pick a mob level as well to balance against and with how things are 3 dots are the mob you will have to chose, OR get rid of the 6 dot system and go to a 3 dot system

1 solo
2 group
3 raid.

As it is there is no middle ground. ANY healer can fight 3 dot mobs and win because our healing spells are setup for groups fighting 4-5 dot mobs. Go figure. By making the changes they have now Disciples will not be as capable in groups fighting 4-5 dot mobs so we are going to have to become really good at soloing. And we can sill solo 3 dot mobs all day long it just takes for ever. We could do it in Beta 3, 4, 5 and here in Beta 6 we can sill can, but now we actually do less DPS than beta 3 and our healing ability makes us a less viable option in a group fighting 4 dot mobs where our healing use to be tuned to.

In any event the PAYING players should not suffer the price for Sigils lack of “vision” when it comes to game balance.


3-dots should not be the basis that each class is judged against for soloing.

I completely agree. Healers and some other classes will always do better at soloing than pure melee’s its just how it is. Making the pure melee’s as good at soloing 3 dots trivializes encounters with 4 and 5+ dot mobs.

In a good group as the only healer against 4 dot mobs my healing was right on par which is where it was intended to be for group play, but again as above because I can heal against an incoming 4-5 dot mob it means that 3 dot and lower mobs are going to be trivial for any healer because of the difference in hitpoints and DPS put out by a 3 dot mob as compared to a 4 dot mob.

How do you base a system around a "Con" system, when the cons are rather "blurred" to many classes?

My opinion is that they need to clearly deign what is a solo, group and raid mob.

DPS should be based around a solo mob. Healing should be based around a group mob.

This is how I would have done it.

1 dot = solo content
2 dot = small group (2-3)
3 dot = full group Weaker named for 2-3 man groups.
4 dot rare name and dungeon bosses.
5 Dot base raid mob.
6 dot = Higher end raid mob or raid bosses.

How you balance them out.

1 dot lower HP decent damage. Should be set so a even 1 dot mob is a challenging fight toe to toe for a defensive fighter with the edge going to the players
Example: average of 40 DPS with about 1000 hp @ level 10.

2 dot mobs- This is where healing should be focused. 2 dot mobs should do more damage per hit with about 50-75% more hit points. This would be a good set for 2-3 players or more casual players.

Example 1500-1750 hp average of 40-50 DPS @ level 10


3 dot mobs – About the same DPS as a 2 dot mob, but with about 150-200% the hit points.

Example: 2000 hp dealing about 50 DPS @ level 10

Again the issue isn’t how much exp you get that’s as easy as saying lvl X 2 dot is worth X and can be done with a batch file on the backend.

The issue is that with as much overlap between mob con and dot you allow to much of a spectrum.

Again if you balance you’re healing ability around group content in this case 4-5 dot mobs then a patent healer will be able to win against those mobs in a one on one fight given thought and patience.

That is the issue with VG and class imbalance. DPS is based around a tough solo (ie 3 dot) mob, but healing is based around 4-5 dot mobs. As long as Sigil keeps their broken con/dot system as it is now and wants to maintain such a broad spectrum players will suffer for their lack of planning and balance.


The Cause of all the heartache is the botched XP system. I applaud Sigil, instead of patching by trying to tweak Xp alittle here, alittle there, etc., and finally doing what had to be known as the unpopular thing and fixing it.

The heart of the issue is a botched con / dot system.

I will say it again Balance DPS by using refresh timers on abilities instead of a crit system that has no balance or need.

Balance out content (the dot system) and CLEARLY define

1 dot = Solo mob
2 dot = small group (2-3)
Inbetween 2 and 3 dot mobs is where healing should be tuned, but group DPS should also be used as a balancing to keep healers form being grossly over powered.
3 dot = Group content (4-6)
4 dot = Dungeon boss Tough quest mob (full group)
5 dot = Low end Raid mobs (Yard trash)
6 dot = Full raid mobs and Bosses.

Will healers and some classes manage to take out 2 dot mobs solo? Yes. In EQ druids etc would quad kite all the time. There will always be a class here and there that is able to solo just a bit better than others, but as I said the only way to have a 100% balanced game is to have 1 mob and 1 class and tune them to be 100% balanced, but then you might as well be playing ping pong against yourself.

The dot system should not allow for 1 (what is the point of an even con mob that is notably weaker than someone the same level? Isn’t that what a lower con mob is for in the first place???), 2 and 3 dot mobs as solo and 3, 4, 5 as group with some 6 dot mobs as rare “really tough” group or raid targets. The spectrum is too broad to make clear class balance. Its like trying to regulate a car race, but allowing for pinto’s to race with Mustangs and Lambo’s while expecting them all to run at about the same speed. It simply will not work.

[Lyliani]

Xanoria
14 Dsc - Gulgoreth

I grouped last night for about 2 hours with lvl 17 and 14 DK, 15 PSI, MNK and RNG - Caverns of Noz

Had no problems keeping my group healed. Had no problems gaining jin (soul cutter is great to use when you are trying to stock up on Jin you've used for your bonds or your jin based heal, plus, that lowers your aggro)

Was fun even when we had 2, 3 pulls.

I really don't think that dsc's are so badly nerfed that we are not playable. I do wish that the bugs were fixed and hope that they will be soon. Bonds need to be fixed, our energy cost for our blessed wind needs to be fixed (already acknowledged as a mistake by devs)

i was finally able to keep 1 dissonate and 1 harmonious bond on at the same time last night for the first time - i had a bug before where i could only use one at a time. I also could toggle off my dissonate bonds when they were resisted when i could not before.

i critted about once every other fight.. give or take a few. I use 2 torrid claws as my h2h weapons. Sometimes i critted a few tiimes in the same fight, sometimes i didnt crit for 2 or 3 fights. Definitly better than the crit spam we had before.

[Vidrak]

The funny part is DSC's can still solo 3-dots. If you can't you are doing something very wrong. White/Dark Blue 3-dots are still VERY doable. And this IS NOT solo content, for the 1000th time.

Yes, the nerf was pretty bad, but its not totally horrible. Once the heals are fixed (whenever this patch comes) it will be much better, I think.

Will have to tough it out until then ...

[Azyel]

The funny part is DSC's can still solo 3-dots. If you can't you are doing something very wrong. White/Dark Blue 3-dots are still VERY doable. And this IS NOT solo content, for the 1000th time.

Yes, the nerf was pretty bad, but its not totally horrible. Once the heals are fixed (whenever this patch comes) it will be much better, I think.

Will have to tough it out until then ...


I agree, things will be allright if they fix the heals. I just hope it will be more than just lower a little the endurance cost of Blessed Wind as was mentionned. Our new crit rate and the need to use clarity to get them, affects healing (add to that lowering of chain heal amount and lowering of blessed wind regens...)

[Takashiro]

Well it seems to me that even the description is bugged hehe
"
1-dot: You have a pulse, you can kill it.
2-dot: Solo
3-dot: Duo/Trio
4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 (depending on skill, level, etc)
5-dot: Full Party
6-dot: Raid
"

4-dot: Small group 4 to 6 .. ^^ and i ask you now what is max group?
what is big group from this description's point of view for that matter if 4-6 is "Small" hehe

Takashiro Aaldaemon
Disciple of 18th Circle